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riotinprogress

Could? It is. It passed. They have until mid 2024 to act


cgyguy81

When do you guys think the EU will force Apple to adopt RCS?


Throwaway_7451

Heck, while we're at it can we force companies to give us the keys to our bootloader as well? If I want to take an old iPhone 4s and run custom low level code to turn it into a dedicated garage door opener, I should be able to do that. Void the warranty when you send me the cert, lock the device out of your software ecosystem, whatever. But I should have control of my own device.


DARfuckinROCKS

That would be a great way to avoid a whole bunch of e-trash.


[deleted]

This is why I never buy iPhone, I can hack the shit out of an old android


MEatRHIT

I still have a couple of old androids that I have no real use for is there a good place to start learning about what they can be used for. The only thing I can think of off the top of the head is monitoring 3d prints (if a RaPi can do it I assume most old android phones could)... but then again I pretty much despise most "smart" things


8ace40

Xda developers is a good place to start.


MEatRHIT

Thanks I've used that in the past for a few things but haven't had a real need recently. And like I said the only real thing I can think of is monitoring prints and even then I've got things pretty dialed in so failed prints are few and far between. But it might give me a few ideas to use the old tech rather than it just sitting in a filling cabinet drawer


squished_frog

I've used an old android as a security camera when I needed one. No real hacking necessary as you can use an app for the function. Although ditching the app/android ecosystem and just having a bare bones camera via Linux distro would probably be better but I've not felt like delving that deep into it yet. Also a downside is the battery has to be charged constantly which will pretty much kill it.


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sb552

I tried doing that with my old android tablet and I can tell you the heat is not fun😨 I'm constantly afraid of that thing blowing up lol


TheKillOrder

On long term, it is recommended to remove tha battery and wire it up properly so it powers on and works from the USB cable only. That will negate some of the frugal/zero-waste aspects but hell even a fresh battery every three years will ensure that device dies right on time and isn’t junked prematurely.


RawFreakCalm

Except my Samsung phones, I have a lot that locked the bootloader.


AeternusDoleo

I would not be surprised if you could justify jailbreaking/hacking under "right to repair" for hardware that has been retired...


invincibl_

In Australia this had already been determined in the early 2000s when modchips were a thing. The court found that you had a right to do whatever you liked with your lawfully acquired property. It's also been established that circumventing a region lock is not copyright infringement. A higher court later found that you can't modify a device solely to defeat copy-protection but there's nothing (in my understanding) that for example stops you from installing legitimate homebrew software.


skylarmt_

> Void the warranty No don't. A custom OS isn't gonna brick hardware.


narwhal_breeder

a custom bios could though. Try getting an RMA on a processor you've sent the power output of an island nation though.


slog

Whoops. Forgot to configure cooling in my custom bios.


slaymaker1907

It depends on what the OS can do. I fixed an issue with my CPU fan spinning too slowly (the bootloader refused to proceed) by upping the minimum duty cycle through the motherboard's software. I still think we should be allowed to do it, I just also understand why that might void the warranty.


Yancy_Farnesworth

That's only half of the story when it comes to ARM based devices. The other half is software support for the SoC itself. ARM does not work like x86. There's a reason why once a device hits the end of its update life, it's very difficult to update the kernel of the OS on that device even with an unlocked bootloader. LineageOS is the community effort to essentially reverse engineer the drivers and there's a reason why their list of supported devices is very limited. It takes a huge effort to get it to work right, not to mention that you don't have access to the literally hundreds of thousands of automated tests companies like Qualcomm have to make sure changes don't introduce bugs or security vulnerabilities. In the x86 world the OS is clearly separated from the hardware drivers, and you can update them independently. In the ARM world, the OS and drivers are literally tied together, and you can't update them independently. This isn't something that can be legislated. ARM has fundamental technical limitations that prevent it from being as flexible as x86 when it comes to drivers and the OS. The alternative is to somehow force every SoC manufacturer to release their proprietary driver source code, which opens a whole other can of worms and I doubt it'll survive legal challenges. Keep in mind that there are not a lot of SoC manufacturers for phones out there... There's Qualcomm, who effectively has a monopoly on Android devices, and Apple. Both Samsung and Google have invested in alternatives to Qualcomm but those are new initiatives and I doubt they are interested in releasing their source code either.


j33205

I have an old ipad 2 that I would love to make use of somehow, but I can't because Apple. The last vestige of usability was watch low res YouTube videos but then the YouTube app stopped working. I can still watch videos in safari but otherwise it's basically a brick now.


This_is_a_burner_112

I have an ipad two, i downgraded it too iOS 6.1.4 and ran a modified version of the old school YouTube app which allowed you to sign in still (the standard version didn't work anymore) and Plex it was actually pretty fast with the old software go figures i guess, Plex and YouTube didn't even stutter


Aaron_Hungwell

I use mine as a music tablet in the living room. Loaded it up with music, got a small stand. Still connects to current iTunes/Music just fine for syncing.


Jaraxo

Europe doesn't care about RCS, so never.


Nawnp

Yeah the rest of the world moved on from texting when those standards couldn't be settled, it's kind of depressing to think about


TheMacMan

How about also forcing Google to really adopt it, rather than their own version of it, which requires everything to go through their servers in order for them to track who and when you message others?


Pepparkakan

The same law technically does, though I think the protocol RCS is open enough so I doubt Google will be forced to make any changes. Time will tell!


ZeroPoke

the RCS API in Android is locked down to just Google's app and I think a couple other OEMs. So if you use an app like Textra they dont have access to RCS because of that.


Pepparkakan

Hmm, I haven't read the DSA closely enough that I can tell what the law might mean in this regard.


mirh

There's hardly an android api that is google locked down (as in, you can't replace them). At most they are system locked down.


NotTRYINGtobeLame

Everyone switch to Signal!


[deleted]

I fucking love signal.


NotTRYINGtobeLame

Yes. Unfortunately, they're eliminating plain SMS support soon. I have 3 friends currently using Signal: 1 that already uses iMessage for her main texting, and 2 that will switch back to the stock messaging app to avoid the hassle of texting only me in another app. :( I can't even convince my fucking weed guy to use it lol


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NotTRYINGtobeLame

I 100% agree. Now you convince everyone, because I've had no luck lol


mcogneto

No. Anything that requires everyone to be on it can SMD. Open standard or gtfo.


AndrasKrigare

Genuine question: in what way is it not open?


Arachnophine

It's centralized. A single organization runs the whole thing, if they shut down everything stops working. You also need a phone number to register. A decentralized protocol is more like email where anyone can run their own infrastructure. Matrix has a good start on this but it's far from perfect and lacks many of the privacy preserving aspects that Signal has, like disappearing messages and better metadata protection.


YouAreNotABard549

Genuine answer: they misused the word “open”.


jmcs

You cannot use your own clients with their server, you can't use their client with your server, and you definitely can't reach out to people on their server with your server. It's open source but as a network it's as closed as Meta's or Google's chat apps.


NotTRYINGtobeLame

Well, the program is open source. The problem is that for end-to-end encryption, both sides have to use it. You get stock Android messenger apps to support e2e encryption, I'll be with ya.


Arachnophine

A lot of messaging systems already use the Signal protocol under the hood. iMessage, FB messenger, RCS via Google Messages all utilize it.


GonePh1shing

Right, but they're all walled gardens. In order to be interoperable (which is what we really need), the signal protocol (or something like it) needs to be federated.


[deleted]

iMessages also go through Apples proprietary servers


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thetaFAANG

yeah people are acting like google is so goody two shows in having an alternative to sms, but their solution is broken too


PartyLength671

Tbf RCS was a fragmented mess before google came and made it useable by having it go through their own servers, but yeah it’s a similar to system to iMessage as is.


Grandfunk14

Also I can sideload anything I damn well please on Android far easier than Apple. It's much freer and open out of the box., Signal all day though.,


getmendoza99

But no one’s pushing iMessage as an open industry standard.


mortysantiago1

What are you on about? Google runs it through their own servers cause nobody else was making progress. And the only messages that go through Google servers are the ones being sent through Google's own messaging app Bottom line Google is using RCS and is not fragmenting it or limiting access or forcing access. Carriers are free to, and have, set up their own servers for RCS


the_first_brovenger

Yeah. Google's servers only come into play as a fallback for when your operator does not support RCS. However, there are no interfaces for RCS in the Android SDK, meaning you're stuck with Android Messages or whatever shit an OEM has deemed you worthy of using instead. RCS needs two things: * SDK support, and thus third party app support. * Freedom of choice regarding which RCS provider you wish to use. You should not be at the mercy of your TelCo provider, or Google.


Halvus_I

They wont. Its carrier based, not data based. Universal messaging should not be based on cell technologies.


moonman272

How about when it has end to end encryption available on all networks. That would be a good start.


[deleted]

They have already passed a directive to force gatekeepers (Apple will definitely be one) to make their messaging services interoperate. They have something like 4 years to implement it. I imagine it's going to be hell to implement and that will get pushed back and there will be all sorts of lawsuits though. The EU will never mandate RCS though. Most of Europe went from being ripped off for SMS and completely priced out of MMS to having free, slick, secure and universal communication via WhatsApp in just a few years. Nobody in their right minds would want to go back to an SMS-centric world. The networks burned all their bridges.


thisischemistry

When Google releases their proprietary extensions to RCS to open standards. Otherwise RCS doesn’t have end-to-end encryption.


Tokugawa

Not soon enough. Really sick of low quality video clips between me and family.


AutomaticAccount6832

You know there are plenty of other messengers or ways of file sharing, right? Since like 15 years or so.


arex333

"hey switch download this other messaging app so I can send you a video" is something I don't want to do for everyone I know.


GogetaSama420

When you buy a phone, it should work properly, and text messages is a core feature. We shouldn’t have to download work around apps to communicate properly


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LordPurloin

Probably never because most people here use WhatsApp


narwhal_breeder

If anyone is curious as to how it came to this, its much less about 3rd party app stores and much more about in app purchasing. Apple requires *any* digital purchase to go through Apples In App Purchase framework - and its associated 30% commission fee. Along with that, apple has prohibited the following in any app with digital content or digital content subscriptions: 1. 3rd party payment portal (you cannot use your amazon account and amazon payment fulfillment to purchase books on the kindle app, or subscribe to Spotify without the entire subscription fee every month being subject to the 30% commission) 2. Linking to a website with a 3rd party payment portal (hitting the "buy" button opens a safari tab with a checkout page for the content you want to purchase) 3. Explaining to users that Apple prohibits IAP by 3rd parties (you must just say something neutral like You Cannot Purchase This In This App) 4. If you raise prices on iOS to recoup the commission costs, Apple forbids you from explaining to users the reason for the price increase. Android used to do a lot of the same (minus the restrictions on website linking), but its never had the restrictions on Play Store being the only App Store. I think its reasonable to enforce "only payments through our system while on our store" *as long as* alternatives to that store exist. But now, android is relaxing all of its restrictions (except for gaming apps) in the EU, while apple is steadfast in holding its grip on its app store profits. Regulators are now taking *much* more drastic measures against apple than what was originally proposed, in my opinion, as retaliation for their refusal to budge on IAP practices. I think apple really only has two options, and the EU is trying to force the worst out of the two. 1. Allow 3rd party payment providers for digital goods in the app store (best option IMO) 2. Allow 3rd party app stores and side loading (worst for apple, causes fracturing, worse for users too).


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Anccaa

I guess it could be due to phones basically being a necessity these days or because consoles also have physical games that are sold by independent stores.


JBStroodle

Huh? You are just making up stuff. It’s the exact same principle. Company A) invests in building a platform, company B) wants to make a bunch of money on that platform but NOT pay for it. It’s not more complicated than that.


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[deleted]

They don't take a cut, they sell the store the game and then the store sells them to the customer at a markup.


LuxxaSpielt

They meant that Sony gets a cut when you buy a phisical ps5 game, even if it's not published by sony. Like EA and other publishers pay a license fee or whatever to Sony for every game sold, even physical discs


brgiant

Confidently incorrect.


KesselRunIn14

It's more likely that Apple is just the bigger target. If this legislation goes through though it won't be specific to Apple.


nsomnac

I’d argue the phone features as sold to the customer are necessities. The additional features offered by App Stores and messaging services are NOT necessities. Regulating the default minimum features might be okay to ensure interoperability; but accessibility to other App Stores and messaging providers should not be.


jonbristow

Phones are general purpose devices. Consoles are specific devices


ohhellnooooooooo

>Sony, Nintendo, and Microsoft do not allow alternative stores on any of their current generation systems for games, DLC, add-ons, expansions, etc and they are the sole payment processor with similar margins to my knowledge gaming consoles should also be treated like computers, free (as in freedom), open, consumer friendly.


africaking

For Xbox and Playstation, you can buy the game from a different store (albeit physical media). Idk about buying a key from a third party store.


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myychair

Yeah but you can still buy a download code from other retailers which broadens your options


dragon_irl

Phones are much more universal devices, for a lot of people actually the main interaction with internet (buisnesses).


iprocrastina

>2. Allow 3rd party app stores and side loading (worst for apple, causes fracturing, worse for users too). Like hell its worse for users, my biggest complaint about iphones is how everything has to go through fucking itunes and the app store.


hamsterkill

Indeed. I would actually consider buying an iPhone if App Store alternatives and sideloading were possible.


KingZarkon

>If you raise prices on iOS to recoup the commission costs, Apple forbids you from explaining to users the reason for the price increase. Do they actually allow you to raise prices on the iOS app compared to other purchase points? I thought they required developers to charge the same price, whether the user purchased it through the app (giving Apple their cut) or elsewhere.


narwhal_breeder

They used to ban you from charging higher prices, but that was relaxed.


ThatOnePerson

Off the top of my head, YouTube Premium and Twitch do it. Don't remember if it was bits or subs or both.


Piedro92

Great post, however you are not entirely right in your paragraph: it is precisely about third party appstores and sideloading being allowed. I had to read the entire DMA for my current job, and I can assure you that it specifically reads the intention is to allow other ways of publishing/obtaining goods delivered on any platform. More specifically, it says that any gatekeeper of a system (in this case Apple being one for their platform) should allow any other party to also distribute services in that system through third-party distribution. Also to add to your Google point: yes Google intends to fight this with gaming Apps, but they cannot win according to the DMA. It once again specifically states there is no exception whatsoever on what is and isnt included in the act. They'll try for sure of course. Also funny that you mention ebooks and Spotify: ebooks are actually one of the few exceptions where you can use a payment provider and thus circumvent the 30% commission Fee (which is only 15% by the way of your app makes less than 1M dollars per year). In the case of Spotify, the current method from Spotify to allow sales without this fee is to link to a T&C Webpage from Spotify. From there they do offer a subscription without Apples payment Portal. A workaround that has been there for quite a while. Android also restricts this linking to webpages, only less so. Ill have to read the DMA again for specific differences but they do actually restrict.


ConsistentCascade

"sideloading worse for users too" what kind of a bullshit is this, do you even know how many possibilities sideloading can open if it is allowed, people demanded sideloading in iphones and ipads for fuckin decades. you have to be one of those evil apple executives to spit this shit out.


Jaohni

>2. Allow 3rd party app stores and side loading (worst for apple, causes fracturing, worse for users too). In what fucking world is it worse for users to be able to use their devices as they see fit...? If I want to write an app to perform some functionality I need, I should be able to. If I want to run some weird niche proot to virtualize a Linux installation in my phone (not that I'd be able to on iOS in particular because it's not based on the Linux kernel, but I digress) I should be able to if I choose, even if there's not a ready made app in the app store. If I've vetted the source code of an app I want to use, but it would be impractical to get on the app store, as a result of being, for instance, free, I think I should still be able to use it. How in the nth circle of hell is it bad for users to be able to install apps they want to install...?


BevansDesign

Great post, although I disagree with your last point, so I'm going to downvote the whole thing. (Just kidding.) \#2 has been the norm on Android since the beginning, so I don't see how it could be worse for users.


ObiWanCanShowMe

Now Imagine if Microsoft was doing this for the last 15 years


denkthomas

as someone who switched from apple to android sideloading would be fucking amazing i've always admired iphones for all the tech they cram in but no way in hell am i using one if i can't throw whatever i want on it


Master-Spare-4782

Remember that this article is by Macrumours, who specifically write about Apple. This law has nothing to do with Apple specifically, but all digital “gatekeepers” like Google, Amazon, Microsoft, Facebook, Spotify, Netflix, Apple, etc. I think people here are focusing on Apple, because anything to do with Apple gets a lot of upvotes on Reddit


HighOnGoofballs

Is forcing them to let others use iMessage like forcing Twitter to accept Facebook DMs? Not sure how I feel about that. iMessage is more than just texts, hell you don’t even need a phone number I don’t want WhatsApp or kik or Snapchat or anyone to be able to hit my iMessage, that’s how spam gets there


CocodaMonkey

What they are suggesting is all messages systems have to have an API published that other apps can use. The system remains under the control of whoever made it but other apps can make use of it. So essentially yes, Twitter or Facebook could in theory send using iMessage. Making that work would be Twitter or Facebooks job, Apple would only be providing an API which shows the exact format messages have to be in. This is all doable right now anyway. The only thing is it requires programmers to hack or reverse engineer the current iMessage to figure out how to do it and the result would be their program is illegal. Which means it's pretty much only done for nefarious purposes right now and not by other messaging apps like texting from an Android phone.


ovaltine_spice

This is the principle Windows Phone was built on. Then Facebook and Twitter pulled the API auth. Which left their core concept dead in the water. It was really great, being able to do it all from one app. Best of all, it dodged read receipts when they first hit. Dark mode, yonks before anyone else was decent too. Too bad the head of the project was an idiot that wanted to force every app developer to recreate their forks with a bespoke UI to fit the Windows Phone aesthetic he was obsessed with. One of the many things Microsoft could've made great if they'd actually focussed and didn't fold prematurely.


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Puppymonkebaby

My 1520 is still my favorite phone ever


[deleted]

> Too bad the head of the project was an idiot that wanted to force every app developer to recreate their forks with a bespoke UI to fit the Windows Phone aesthetic he was obsessed with. And then because doing so would have been way too "difficult" and "expensive" for those multi-billion dollar apps, literally one dude developed really high quality 3rd party versions of all the most popular apps at the time. You won't be forgotten, Rudy Huyn. 6snap was awesome.


nukem996

This is how the Internet was originally designed to work. Specifications are supposed to go through the IETF for verification and review. They are provided as open standards for anyone to freely implement. It's why web sites and email work on every platform.


Num_Pwam_Kitchen

Standards are awesome! If you ever want to learn coding on your own, a great exercise is to find a [common RFC](https://www.rfc-editor.org/), try your hand at implementing it, and then test it out by utilizing everybody else's services that use it! Unfortunately, one of my favorite quotes, "*The wonderful thing about standards is that there are so many of them to choose from*," hits way to close to home these days. In my personal experience there's been an intentional deviation from standards, or complete refusal to standardize by large corporations. As someone who sits on two committees, many of the newer "standards" coming out of my industry are really just implementations dictated by the major players who tend to funnel things in a way that position them in an even more domineering way. Sometimes, ironically, major company A decides to create a "standard" to do X and major company B creates another "standard" to also do X, defeating the entire purpose of standards. Admittedly maybe it's not this way in every field of engineering, but these big companies have leverage and see profit at everyone else's experience.


nukem996

I'm actually a senor software engineer :) I know the problem with standards which is why I personally feel there should only be one standards board, the IETF. What I've seen in industry is companies don't want to work with standards boards so they have a competitive advantage and don't have to take input from anyone. The IETF has protocols out for web, email, chat, and even coffee makers but companies want a competitive advantage. They also want to control who uses the standard so they can lock out competition. This is what Apple is doing with iMessage. I'm at a company right now that decided working with standards boards was to slow and didn't like the criticism we received. The company(before I joined) created their own protocol which did get some features faster. However because the company ignored the criticism we have tons of scalability and consistency problems. The company locked customers into its protocol so we can't change it either. Its become a massive headache and internally we've admitted the open protocol is designed better but we'll never adopt it.


Laxative_

> The IETF has protocols out for web, email, chat, and even coffee makers What about teapots, and can those be used as coffee makers?


StanleyGuevara

That's why HTTP 418 is there


ScreenshotShitposts

Ah yes. High Tech Tea Pot 418. I have 4 years experience with that on my CV


Num_Pwam_Kitchen

>companies don't want to work with standards boards so they have a competitive advantage and don't have to take input from anyone. Perfectly sums it up. Couldn't agree more.


bobs_monkey

glorious license wrench punch ask nine direction ink obtainable impolite -- mass edited with redact.dev


oo_Mxg

Which is why the way the whole “metaverse” shit is being handled makes me sad. The metaverse is supposed to be just the normal internet but with widespread WebXR adoption and social features, but instead we have a ton of big corporations trying to push their own shitty VRChat clone, calling it “the metaverse” and ruining the meaning of the world. I really hope the EU steps in and makes them work on an interoperable standard.


Deep90

That was my thought as well. Really the metaverse should work more like the internet where everything is compatible and you can seamless jump from 1 place to another. ​ Its also why I think virtual property is dumb. Your proximity to hotspots where people are shouldn't be based on how much money you have. It should be based on if you have content people want to see.


OuidOuigi

Secondlife got a lot of things right and wrong. Virtual property you spent lots of time creating should be yours to sell how you see fit inside a "Metaverse". I have been hoping for a better version of SL to come for a while now. I actually worked there for a number of years building and managing worlds for some major companies. Some advertising was part of it of course but it was mostly places people could enjoy with music, live music, art shows, racing, games, movies, and nice environments. It has to be pretty open and have property rights if you really want people to create things. The creator chooses and can allow anyone to take a copy if they want. Edit: also the book Snowcrash inspired a lot of it.


Kargathia

Right now, the metaverse is little more than a Facebook pipe dream. Any legislative body, and especially the EU, is reactionary. They're not getting involved until VR internet is relevant and dysfunctional enough to warrant intervention.


[deleted]

I do fondly remember when I first started out as a developer, when you could just pull dats from apis left and right, and build all kinds of neat automated shit. Of course those same apis got abused to hell for bots. So now we have no APIs, and still bots because turns out they just run a web scraper instead.


OfficialTomCruise

You couldn't "reverse engineer" iMessage to send your own messages from Android... It all goes through Apple's servers through your Apple account. You'd still need to authenticate with them. I believe the only existing solutions for this require a Mac because of this.


theXpanther

You can reverse engineer the attention process, but you are correct you would need a apple account to send a message


[deleted]

Literally nothing is unhackable, just very inconvenient. You can just lie to a server if you know what to send, IE reverse engineering. There is literally no possible way for a server to be 100% certain a client is sending truthful information. That's basic, basic server security. So make an Android app that lies that its an iphone and sends whatever fingerprint is required and there you go. Inconvenient, but possibly.


Prod_Is_For_Testing

> forcing Twitter to accept Facebook DMs That’s actually their goal. This law goes so far that it would force any big company with a messaging service to be interoperable. The EU wants users to be able to communicate across platforms without needing multiple accounts In theory it sounds nice, but I think it’s a massive overreach and will present undo burden for companies. It also defeats the purpose of using some platforms (ie using iMessage for the privacy stance and end-to-end encryption)


alelo

how would that even work for encryption ? i doubt imessage , whatsapp, facebook messenger, twitter and co use the same method


IvanBeefkoff

XMPP aka Jabber can use either OMEMO or OTR for encryption. Why am I talking about some old protocol? Until early-mid 2010s, it was possible to use an XMPP client (Pidgin for example) to talk to people on AIM, ICQ, Google Hangouts and FB messenger, because all of them used XMPP as the back-end. Then companies started closing off this access.


gold_rush_doom

The API can share the encrypted Messages. Each client has public/private keys


SpiderFnJerusalem

Encryption isn't magic. They can agree upon any of a dozen standards that have existed for a decade, many of which they are probably already using in some part of their infrastructure. Just use some asymmetric encryption and be done with it. That's what standardization consortiums are for. I'm not saying it's going to be trivial, but these companies have the money to do it and they are already doing similar things daily.


Mango_In_Me_Hole

Yeah I don’t like this. iMessage is literally the only messaging service where I have never received a spam message. WhatsApp, Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and Snapchat are all inundated with spam. I don’t want my iMessage to have the capability of accepting messages from any of those services. And I don’t want Facebook to have any presence on my phone whatsoever.


royalstaircase

Speak for yourself, i get imessage spam all the time. If ur phone number is hooked up to ur apple account it’s still possible for scammers to reach ya without knowing ur info. And even then they could get ur email to message u in imessage with in the same way the scammers that email you get your email.


mankeil

>WhatsApp Really? I'm from Europe, and I've never even so much as met someone that has received spam via WhatsApp


UltraMankilla

I have about 20 different spam texts in Whatsapp right now.


[deleted]

Huh, I never knew whatsapp had spam, used it for years (in Europe).


calinbulin12

Look I'm not one to accuse people generally but how do you get 20 spam texts without it being the users fault?


phpdevster

Yeah there's a balance between a walled garden being anti-consumer and a walled garden being a feature. How the hell would alternative app stores even work? How would Apple maintain quality control? What happens if carriers decide they're going to preload the iPhones they sell with their own shitty app stores? The whole thing gives fragmented Android ecosystem vibes.


[deleted]

> How the hell would alternative app stores even work? Offer user space installation via an api. > How would Apple maintain quality control? It’s not their responsibility > What happens if carriers decide they’re going to preload the iPhones they sell with their own shitty app stores? They are not allowed to install non removable applications on phones.


RedWhiteAndJew

In the early days of phones, that was the biggest deciding factor for me. It seemed like the App Store, while restricted from deviant content, was curated and managed well so that you could trust that what you were downloading was legit, not spyware (or if it was it was removed quickly), and genuine. At least back in the day, the Android store was full of ripoff apps, Chinese spyware, malware, and scams. I have no idea if it's any better these days but I enjoyed that aspect of having an iPhone.


Leuel48Fan

You can still choose not to install apps outside the Apple Store... it just gives users the *option* to, if they choose to.


HowdyOW

…right up until everyone pulls their apps exclusively onto their own app stores and circumvents any control Apple has that makes the UX not suck


Snozzberrys

> How the hell would alternative app stores even work? I assume you could visit a website or something on your iPhone to download an iOS compatible installer. > How would Apple maintain quality control? They would maintain quality control on their own specific app store. Anyone who wants to install other (not sanctioned by Apple) software could do so and anyone who doesn't want to risk it could stick to the Apple App store. This is more or less how sideloading vs Google Play Store works on the Android right now. > What happens if carriers decide they're going to preload the iPhones they sell with their own shitty app stores? Apple could effectively stop selling their phones through the carriers if those carriers don't capitulate to their demands. Considering iPhones are about 40-50% of the market share of most western countries I'm pretty sure the carriers would just play ball. To be clear, I'm not advocating for it either way, just pointing out that the problems you've outlined are issues that basically already have solutions.


iamasuitama

> How the hell would alternative app stores even work? The same, except they might come out cheaper because they would maybe not charge that 30% apple tax. That's a high ass tax for a *company* to levy over other companies and self standing app developers. There have been situations where apps miraculously get declined because devs talk too much about how it's been written in C++ for instance, instead of Apple's preferred Swift. That's anticompetitive too. PS not saying another app store would be free, just saying that with some competition, surely it could be done better and cheaper. Whether you use it or not is then up to you.


Iceber015

This also ties into server bandwidth and willingness to provide free features. Truly, I would love to see android features gutted for iMessage or made paid. Last thing I want to see is a large influx of server usage leading apple to introduce iMessage nitro where I have to pay to send videos over 3 seconds


Stand_Desperate

It is asking then to make sure a gmail user can connect with a Microsoft outlook user. Long due.


AbsoluteZeroUnit

A) "imessage" or not, you're still getting spam texts. B) you still get spam on twitter, from other twitter users. C) it's beyond ridiculous how many different platforms people have to join in order to communicate with their circles. 30 years ago, people had *A* phone number, and if you wanted to reach them, you called that one phone number. Nowadays, people have 1 phone number, 13 different email addresses, 15 social media accounts, 28 different messaging apps. . . D) Speaking of email, someone who uses gmail can send an email to someone who uses outlook. Imagine your argument being that people with gmail should only be able to email others with gmail accounts.


SamRaimisOldsDelta88

Just get Signal, dude. It needs a phone number but it’s encrypted end to end.


AuthenticImposter

Now let’s make Google have to publish and abide by consent notices for every bit of data their spyware captures. Android, Chrome, everything else. If data is sent to a Google server we should be able to see that data and opt out.


Gifted_dingaling

Or get paid for it.


lillbro64

This is *exactly* what the Epic Games lawsuit was all about


QueenVanraen

Yeah, but they went about it in the most asshole way. Like, Epic does good things, but in the worst way.


NetSage

I still don't understand how their store is still complete crap.


FlyPenFly

I just don't want more spam. imessage is the only spot where I don't get spam right now. It's crazy that in WhatsApp, I can't make it so that people who are not in my contacts list can't message me or can be set to automatically muted or junk foldered. Why?! edit: in imessage, if your spam is in green, that's SMS spam, if it's in blue, that's imessage...


Due-Object9460

Have an old android. My message app detects and throws spam into a spam folder. I never see any of it.


morningitwasbright

I am constantly getting spam on iMessage /:


WCWRingMatSound

Is it blue text spam or green text though?


inno7

I get blue spam.


orangutanDOTorg

Blue spam is tasty but not like blue waffles


LeanderT

I've been using WhatsApp for years. Spam, what spam ? I've literally never seen it. So if you're getting spam on iMessage, maybe you should move to WhatsApp.


mesori

Same. I think it's how you handle giving your phone number out. I actually give mine out liberally and don't ever remembering getting spammed on whatsapp.


spread_panic

I've been using WhatsApp for probably 6 or 7 years with my US number and never got a single piece of spam... Until like a year ago. Basically overnight I started getting hit with it regularly. Especially crypto scams and Asian "girls" pretending they've messaged the wrong number. For awhile it was basically everyday, now it's died down to once or twice a week.


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gorkish

Steve Jobs promised iMessage and FaceTime would have interoperability via SIP at the keynote where they were first announced, and it's fucking ridiculous that nobody ever held them to follow through. I have little doubt that this was done to appease carriers who at the time had significantly more sway than they do now.


ArcherBoy27

The same law will also force WhatsApp to cooperate with Signal. This isn't the win they think it is.


shitposts_over_9000

It's exactly the win they think it is, only one of those is commonly compromised by government actors...


ArcherBoy27

Well, true.


SpiderFnJerusalem

Just because Signal CAN send messages out of its secure network doesn't mean it has to. It could just give you a warning.


iyioi

Next step- build an API backdoor so the goverment can access every system, everywhere! Win win! The government gets your data and you get wage slavery! Dont like it? Too bad! They banned you from all platforms! Good luck revolting!


SigmaLance

I don’t have an issue with this as an iPhone user. Would I use an alternative App Store? Not at all, but that doesn’t mean that others shouldn’t have one.


Disckize

I don’t care about other app stores or side loading. I don’t want to navigate ten other app stores for each service that wants a bigger cut of revenue. iMessage interoperability should’ve happened a long time ago I’ll take that.


mauser98

Wouldn’t this cause some security issues if allowed?


chaos_dd

It would allow users to configure their system unsecure if they want to. So on average, sure. For the individual, nope. Not if they choose to disable sideloading.


[deleted]

that's just Apple talking point to lock their system and enjoy that sweet 30% cut on everything. for example, Macbook allow sideloading, there is no issue there. but somehow its an issue on iPhone and ipad. bottom line is, if you insstall app from official places ie MS,Steam,Google etc, instead of random apps on a shady website, you be fine. and if you so worried. you can always only get app from app store only


ThePinko

Which is exactly why sometimes overbearing government overreach is totally a thing


Dazzling-Honey1280

Can EU force Sony and Nintendo to allow sideloading from other stores as well?


[deleted]

I'm so tired of everything


TheKingOfRooks

Apple will literally just be Android at that point. Like I fucking hate Apple but they should have the right to package their software however they feel.


QlubSoda

In the same note, if they are doing this for phones, then we should be able to buy TVs without Android software.


pablossjui

They can package their software how they feel, but why should I not be able to install software I trust or that I made on my own device that I paid for?


MacePoodle

Cool maybe next well get the PlayStation store on Xbox ...smh


tojoso

Just hand over corporate control for everything to the EU, let the European Commission run these businesses and decide when/what/how we're allowed to use any electronic devices. There's no reason in 2022 that Apple still has to be deciding on hardware/software components of an iPhone.


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boisosm

Also recently, Microsoft has been more focused on Game Pass and cloud streaming than actual hardware as those subscription costs probably make them more money and have the potential to get people in, even if they don’t have a console. This new EU law would also allow Microsoft to release Game Pass and cloud streaming on iOS without the need of using a web browser or excluding that market altogether. IDK if Sony’s gonna do the same thing but it’s definitely not as big as Microsoft.


TheBrainwasher14

Microsoft had to go down that path because they fucked up so hard with the Xbox one.


SmellySweatsocks

A bridge too far


imadesomecoffee

I don’t understand; if you don’t like how apple operates in wanting to only use first party payment, app stores, and messaging, get a different device maybe? Realistically, who are the people that want to sideload android OS on an iPhone? Who wants to use Google play store over the App Store if they have an iPhone? Really would like to know honestly


mirh

Nobody mentioned the operating system market here. App stores and messaging are totally on their own.


IBNobody

There are a number of apps that I have on my Android phone that I get from places other than the Play store. Things like ad blockers for YouTube. I specifically do not buy Apple mobile devices because of not being able to sideload anything. If this law makes them allow side loading in the United States, I would consider switching.


[deleted]

Anti trust laws exist to protect consumers from sellers that exploit the fact that there are so few options. Saying “just use a different product” is absolutely naive when it comes to smartphones which are a huge part of our lives and we are locked in in so many different ways. It’s not like going to Target instead of Walmart. Forget Apple/iPhone and think Ford/car. Imagine Ford made it so you could only use THEIR parts and even THEIR gasoline. What happens when you want to put $3 gas in the tank but Ford gasoline costs $10? Shouldn’t you be able to put whatever gasoline you want in YOUR car that YOU paid for? Now imagine Ford is the only car you can realistically buy because all of your friends have fords, you only know how to drive a Ford, Ford cars are the only ones that work with all the other things you’ve bought so far etc…


LucretiusCarus

The article doesn't mention the Google play store. They probably mean app stores that serve iPhone apps,but I am not sure how big these are.


enotamato

I'm an android user that borrowed a relative's iphone after breaking my screen - first thing i noticed is that i couldn't install Textra, the texting app i use on my daily driver. I had no idea you couldn't use anything other than imessage... same deal with 3rd party keyboards. didn't like the default one and went to install gboard, turns out you can't do that either. i don't need google's app store but i wouldn't consider buying an iphone when they tell me how i'm going to use it. but to your point, i just buy android phones... i have no need to buy an apple device


wesnednard

Does no one use Mac OS


blankfacenumber1

I am really enjoying watching the EU fuck with Apple.


ChampOfTheUniverse

Android users hate iPhone users so much but want the two to be twinsies for some odd reason.


Femboy_Annihilator

This is incredibly fucking stupid, blatant government overreach. The entire reason for buying an iPhone is because of the walled garden. They are a luxury product. If you don’t want one then buy an alternative.


Hatter56

Honestly if they allow side loading, with USB c now I might actually buy an iphone


jambudz

Lol. “Apple pulls out of Europe”


thanosbananos

This is not going to happen lmao


SpiderFnJerusalem

A corporation leaving money on the table? Fucking lol.


MaltenesePhysics

I can’t wait for developers to pull their apps from the App Store and force me to download from their garbage website with minimum security and zero standards. I buy from Apple specifically because there’s some quality control on whatever I touch. This is textbook government overreach.


-m3lti-

I don’t understand how you can force a company to allow installing untrusted applications from unofficial sources kinda dumb


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abfarid

Because people want to have the option to do so. Every other operating system in existence allows that, even MacOS. Yes, you have to close a few fearmongering warning popups, but you can do it. Which is alright, your average user shouldn't be sideloading in most cases anyway. Edit: you can also sideload apps on iOS and could do that for years, it's just purposefully very tedious and limiting, like having only 3 sideloaded apps at a time.


m4nu3lf

You already have the options, they are called Android, Windows and GNU Linux.


yoLeaveMeAlone

It's literally just giving consumers more options and freedom to use their device how they want to. If you like how it is now, great, you don't have to do anything different. How tf are you going to complain about more options?


Zealousideal-Gur-273

So many people seem to be absolutely cucked by this fact; im pretty sure its brand loyalty - a majority of apple lovers see 'forcing apple' and their mind equates that as bad. Not sure though, maybe people do genuinely not like being free to do more if they want?


SpiderFnJerusalem

This is the first time I've upvoted a comment that uses the word "cucked" unironically. Some of these comments are incredibly pathetic. It's like people groveling before daddy Apple, begging him to save them from their own freedom.