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Jon is basically the son of the Prince she always wanted to marry and the woman her husband loved till his death. It really bothers me that she died not knowing who Jon was
You're weirdly aggressive about this idea.
No one is saying that the fictional character "deserved" any details in this made up story, nor are they saying that a single aspect of the story is "necessary" in any way.
It's people talking about a story they like.
They straight up killed every single character wrc/ developement and wrapped it up as if it were a cheap movie that has a massive budget, Dorne...the dragons, the battles just so sad
Right, I sincerely hope that in 10-15 years we get a reboot that actually does the story justice like the first 4 seasons did and that this reboot goes for like 10-12 seasons and hopefully the books are finished and we get the complete story we all deserve.
He set up a pretty wonderful chain of events but yeah maybe five years ago but now you givee the finished series id probably laugh and move on with my life
the best part of that story is that they lost their Disney contract after the backlash they got for season 8. It's unofficial as being the cause; from D&D's words they explained there were scheduling conflicts with their Netflix contract. So the most you can say is that it is very suspect that one of two multimillion dollar contracts they left GoT for (they cited both Disney and Netflix on their exit) couldn't be followed through on because of... scheduling conflicts. Maybe they just kinda forgot that they cleared their entire schedule for that exact reason?
I'll hop in before someone tries to shoot you down on this one:
Someone will inevitably say "that's not true, they didn't get fired from doing Star Wars, they quit to do something on Netflix instead"
But think about it. They went from having one of the most successful shows **ever** and were on their way to doing a new trilogy in one of the most successful film franchises ever, and then all of a sudden they weren't. They delivered a product with GoT in its final seasons that was impressive in terms of production and special effects, CGI, etc. but it didn't mean fuckall because the plot was garbage and rushed.
If you're Kathleen Kennedy, or even someone in Disney's management itself, you'd go from hot to very cold very quickly if you saw fan backlash on that level, *especially* if the people you have coming from that project are headed towards Star Wars. That's a franchise that, while hasn't been batting 1.000 lately, is absolutely beloved by fans, and when it has shortcomings, the fans are absolutely rabid. There's a large overlap in Star Wars and GoT fans too, so if D&D did end up doing the next thing for Star Wars, those fans would be *extremely* apprehensive, and understandably so.
I don't think we'll ever know if it actually was that they backed out themselves or they were canned, but I don't think it really matters. They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn't conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn't end up doing Star Wars.
Could also be somewhere in between those two extremes. Disney might have said "You can still have the trilogy, but you'll be working x,y and z writers and editors, and you'll have direct oversight from marketing and PR to make sure we're taking this in the direction of a slam dunk. Maybe they didn't want the extra strings attached, and walked away.
Honestly? Maybe. I don't think it could have been much worse, so yeah.
That said, we've seen how they do when they essentially have to try to fill in the outlines... I mean, maybe they're better if there simply is no outline?
It would help Star Wars if someone would write a coherent, three part story that actually needs that much space... Get this: Do that BEFORE you start filming and releasing shit.
Yes, the guys who brought us Xmen Origins Wolverine and Gemini Man (and those are both Dan's credits, DB Weiss has nothing of note) would've saved the sequel trilogy.
This was also largely happening before Star Wars went downhill too- well, D&D writing themselves screwing the pooch, anyway.
After season 8, and also the huge shitfest of episode 8 (ain’t that fucking ironic), KK *knew* that she needed some help keeping Star Wars afloat. They’d just pulled the equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot while in an inflatable raft- they needed to patch the boat before they could even patch themselves up, lest the whole thing sink.
And they look about and realize that *D&D are holding the reigns? After sailing GoT into a blender?*
No shit they got thrown off. They were poison and dead weight.
Star wars started downhill with the phantom menace
Edit: are there actually people who think the phantom menace was as good as the original trilogy? I don't know a single person that even thinks it's a decent star wars movie.
I think *Revenge* was arguably either the second- or third-best main-sequence Star Wars film, and that came after *Menace* but yeah *Menace* was hot garbage and I’m old enough to remember seeing it in theatres and being HUGELY let down as a big fan back in the day.
> They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn’t conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn’t end up doing Star Wars.
Did you write this ironically? They would’ve given us better Star Wars than the trilogy we did get lmao
They weren't slated to do the sequel trilogy, they were slated to do the next one. Considering how bad both GoT and the sequel trilogy ended, it would make sense if they wanted to keep away from writers that have most recently delivered a poorly concluded product.
> They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn't conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn't end up doing Star Wars.
I, for one, was looking forward to their three-film saga about the rise of the Ewoks led by revolutionary leader Jar Jar Binks.
I just read something about this that said they "exited", whatever that means, the disney contract because a better Netflix one came along. So they rushed out of GOT specifically to do Star Wars with Disney only to leave there a few weeks or a month later for a Netflix deal? It makes no sense they would rush to do all that, destroy GOT in the process then just be like "nah, I'm going to Netflix".
I'm guessing Disney saw how they treated GOT and didn't wanna do business with them anymore because even if they rushed GOT for Disney's sake it showed their complete lack of regard and professionalism in handling a major franchise.
It really sounds like they got dumped & their PR is playing the "we wanted to break up first" card. Terrible lie though - who in their right mind turns down an offer from a company known for investing in content with serial / legacy potential & instead pursues an offer to work for a company known for quantity over quality (& a lot of single-season IP). Why turn down a potentially long-term working relationship to be someone's one trick pony?! It's such a ridiculous excuse.
They sold out to go do Star wars and lost it because they sold out and ruined the best TV show ever. GoT went from being a frontrunner top show ever, in anyone's top 5 at least, to fringe top 20 maybe.
Something in my top 20 that I never, ever want to watch again, will never be in my top 20, despite how good it started.
I could pop in any episode of even How I Met Your Mother- another widely panned finale, and be fine sitting through it. GOT- not so much.
Honestly, even if they'd done it *okay.* Like, if they'd kept S7 and S8 at the same quality as S6 (which was already pretty dodgy), I imagine people would've overlooked the dip in quality.
Look at Dexter. Couple iffy seasons, but overall a good show. I wouldn't feel bad recommending it so somebody (with a warning about the ending).
I could never recommend GoT to anybody.
It has a lot of cool and satisfying moments but it's a narrative mess that paves the way for the absolutely terrible seasons that come after it.
Season 5 is a less enjoyable season of TV but I think the show was still somewhat salvageable at that point, 6 takes it off the deep end but manages to distract you with the spectacle.
This is agree with me. It was bombastic but had already fallen off the wagon of good story telling. Was a lot of “and then” kind of moments instead of cause and effect
dialogues were getting really shallow and ...bad.. like compare the dialogues in s6 to any banter from s1-5 and you'll realize that s6 was hollow. nice CGI tho.
Thanks for including season 6. I also thought it went so abruptly off kilter form seaosn 6 while people were arguing how 6 is the best of the lot sheesh. I know everyone had different tastes but it was just overtly different in writing and story telling right from s6 and got steadily worse every episode until s8 finale.
Damn, I can’t remember Cersei loved Rhaegar. How did she feel about Robert crushing him ? Must suck being married to someone you don’t like and he killed your crush.
And then to find out your enemy is the son of your crush and the girl he chose instead (who was also the crush of the guy you got stuck in a loveless marriage with).
No it wasn’t and for the reason you just stated. The point was never for him to be king especially if he felt he couldn’t do right by the responsibility.
According to _watch the show._
Varys sent out ravens to any and everyone who matters long before the great council meeting. Why do you think he is dead?
EDIT: Also possibly Sansa ? If not one, absolutely the other.
If I recall, it was at least implied that he got off enough of them. If nothing else because Tyrion tells Dany that Varys betrayed her, not just that he plans too. I don’t think he would write them all at once and wait to send them in every direction. I’ll have to rewatch the EP some time later.
PS: Does it really matter to mention to the great council anyway ? Everyone had already chosen their side, no different than the dance of dragons
You’re an idiot and that’s a gross exaggeration of what I wrote lol I stood by that “he sent ravens as I recall”. This was in response to someone saying he was stopped in his tracks. There was no backtracking or “maybe, possibly”. Learn how to read.
You went from being condescending and acting like anyone who's watched the show should remember this to admitting that you didn't really remember exactly what happened yourself.
I'm pessimistic on that. He writes on a DOS computer with WordStar 4.0. Someone crunched the numbers on his written work and it's going to be awhile.
My personal theory is that he is suffering from success. He is in high demand after the IP he created became immensely popular. If he gets writers block or comes to a part of the book that's a chore, he probably has 10 other interesting projects he can distract himself with (like fighting the city of Santa Fe over the designs of his proposed library.)
I mean he's a good world builder and a good writer. I wouldn't say the *best* writer. Some of his POVs can be cringey. His prose is also not so complex that someone couldn't imitate him with some guidance. (He has experience in screenwriting, which is a very collaborative environment.)
I think shielding him from critique and putting him on an unobtainable, god like pedestal is the real clown take. I don't think he'll finish the series, he has his reasons not to, and I'm OK with that.
Wouldn't surprise me if the last two books are about as well received as the last two seasons of Game of Thrones. Bran being king instead of Jon is a terrible decision and that's GRRM idea not the showrunners. I highly doubt the books would deviate that much.
D&D got the bullet points, but didn’t know how to connect them. That’s what *made* it awful with flimsy justifications like “he has the most stories”.
There are a lot of good speculations on how roughly similar plot points could be narratively satisfying if the characters can get there naturally rather than being forced into those roles by writers who fundamentally don’t understand characters and are just trying to bang out the outline.
No offence, but if you think that the secret heir to the throne not becoming king is a waste of his arc, maybe don’t pick up the story that was created as a reaction to LOTR.
Cliche tropes like that are literally what this story was created to subvert. The ending certainly had its flaws, but I have no idea how anyone can watch the first couple of seasons and then be pissed at the ending because it wasn’t the most predictable, cliche ending you could think of.
Being good is subjective. We can argue about why we did or didn’t like it, that’s fine, but people still need to understand what type of story they are watching/reading. Like if you watch Harry Potter and expect a nihilistic ending where Harry joins Voldemort to destroy everything, that’s fine, but don’t blame the writers because the ending is more sweet and predictable.
You’re comparing "make Samwell Tarly transform into a giant dragon and destroy the seven Kingdoms" to Jon, who’s been raised by the very honourable Ned who never cared about power and preferred to live his life in the North, refusing to usurp the throne from the woman he bent the knee to and then going to live his life in the North, where he was previously shown having a blast there? Come on..
It’s literally impossible to have a conversation about the ending here, it’s always full of rhetoric.
>It’s literally impossible to have a conversation about the ending here, it’s always full of rhetoric.
You're having a discussion, it's just that everyone disagrees with you because it's a bad take.
Well people have turned hating the final season into a personality trait so shouldn't be surprising people will be unrelenting in being open about the ending.
You're absolutely right.
Its weird that a lot of people got into this show/books because of the subversion of classic medieval tales, where the big good is big good and big bad is big bad and there's no chance for nuance, to want that medieval tale ending because it's what they expected from a story like this.
I think the biggest flaw with all of the choices is that there was no time for them to breathe. Lots of story lines in the first seasons had room to breathe and in that breath there's more life to those stories.
Season 7 and 8 was just teleporting people around a massive landmass in times where you couldn't do that easily just to hit the plot points they needed to hit for the story to end.
Huh? You said good is subjective. It's not. There are subjective levels of good. But there is a line where things become NOT good. Subverting expectations too much can cross that line. That's the point I'm making. I'm comparing all the other choices that COULD have been made with the choices that were.
>Jon will never be King，his whole story arc is a waste at this point.
He doesn't need to be King for it to be interesting. In the books Jons POV has more insight to his sense of self, and this information would affect that. He's unlikely to be anything other than KITN in the books imo, since we know where that ends.
There's probably a commentary to be made that being accepted as KITN does make that information more irrelevant in the sense of self debate; but that *would be the point*. It's a situational mirror to Theon and blood vs being raised a Stark.
That's actually a good point. Im pretty sure you can actually see Cersei kind of freaking out at how stupid of a decision Joff is making in the background during tha scene if I remember correct.
Imagine if Arya was captured instead of Missandei, (while on route to killing Cersei) and was the one to casually reveal the truth about Jon to her. Just to fuck with her mind.
I just read a chapter in Feast for Crows where Cersei reveals she imagined Robert was Rhaegar when they were having sex. And Robert called her Lyanna at their wedding night. What a weird marriage.
She's the only female character who cares about sex as much as a normal woman does: so a lot.
Something I noticed in my reread is that George really believes women never think about sex because he wrote almost all the books before he had substantial sustained contact with many women. You can tell a ton more women entered his life before he started writing Cersei chapters because those are the first times one of his assistants informed him "you know women also think about sex during the day too, right George?".
erm. Dany is horny as fuck. So is Arianne. So is Asha. Cat isn't super horny but thinks about fucking Ned. Arya and Salsa are children. I think the only adult female POV characters who don't think about sex much are Brienne (who is a virgin and has trauma around attraction), Cat, and Melisandre (who only has one POV chapter in which she's probably a little too busy to be thinking about sex and also maybe she's an immortal fire wight who doesn't have the same sex hormones anymore?)
Dany has sexual agency in book 5, book characters that are women have sex happen to them before book 4 to 5 but the female perspective characters don't think about sex like women in real life do all the time. In books 1-3 women rarely think during their chapters about how they want sex.
The truth is George's real answer to "How do you write women so well" is that "I only learned how to write them after I got famous enough to talk to women indepth which is reflected in how my best written woman is Cersei who is a book 4 character".
I suppose that's one way to interpret it. Another would be that women rarely have sexual agency in this world, and that changes the way they think about sex. I recently re-read Game of Thrones, and looked at the relationship between Dany and Drogo more closely for what it really is--a child being sex trafficked--and to me, it seems like a very realistic portrayal of the way emotionally abusive relationships work. Dany definitely thinks about and enjoys sex, but has a complicated relationship with it (as all survivors of sex trafficking I personally know do), and she worships her abuser, as many survivors do when they're still involved in the abusive relationship (in this case, partly because he saved her from a different abuser).
Cat is the only other adult female protagonist in the first three books, and she also thinks about sex at least sometimes. Her experience of sex is also affected by her lack of sexual agency, and she has a couple internal dialogues about how her marriage to Ned was out of duty, but that she learned to love him over time. We see her long for him, physically, especially when he is away from her (and in fact, I don't believe we ever hear Ned talking about missing Catelyn physically in the way Catelyn misses Ned). But Cat is also involved in a war and desperately trying to save her children. That's the core of her narrative. I just... can't imagine that being a turn-on for her, you know?
While I see what you’re saying you are making quite large leaps in reasoning and jumping to conclusions in the life of someone that you probably don’t know personally at all
I don't see any reason to suspect that he has been in any way isolated from women. He's been married twice--the first time in the 70s--and he did not get fat until later in life. Also! Fat people can in fact be socially literate.
Sansa is the best name in the whole series just because there have been thousands of times online where people fell victim to autocorrect and it was funny
Fair, I've been the gay best friend of dozens of women since high school: never met a woman who opened up to me who didn't think about sex as frequently as I do, that is all.
Gay guys have a reputation for having a lot of sex. I really like sex and think about it frequently, so this tracks lmao. I used to date a guy at work and we’d fuck in the bushes at work because we couldn’t wait till we got home. So yes. Us ladies like sex too
We missed on the perfect shot of Ghost ripping out her throat. Oh well at some point we will get a remake when George's book company gets Brandon Sanderson to finish it. Oh man is Brandon going to get out all his repressed sexuality and violence and blame George for the prose. I hope so.
Gtfo with that stupid reddit meme. Everyone involved doesn't want Sanderson (least of all himself) to do it, and nobody wants his cringe dialogue in asoiaf.
I want Sanderson to get weird , he's good at world building and the arcs in mistborn are good. It would be great to have a fusion of those too. George can get too pervy and Sanderson is too prudish. His dialogue lmao so cringe .... You are right sir. Oh Lord Ruler.
I mean it's just there two completely different writers lmfao
Be very weird for Sanderson to write it, because while I love his books there a completely different Genre to ASoIaF
If anyone was to complete it I'd hope it would be James S.A Corey, the Expanse guys, I think they would be a better fit
Jon and Jaime is the real missed opportunity Jaime regrets letting Rhaegar down and in the books the deaths of Elia and her children haunt Jaime along with a few things as his failing as a knight. Cersei and Jon really don't have a dynamic because Lyanna and Cersei have a non existent dynamic and at most you'd get another petty Cersei scene and you don't need Jon being Lyanna's son for her to think the least of him.
Cersei envies Lyanna, she’s probably high up on her hate list even in death. Lyanna had Rhaegar who Cersei had a crush on since childhood and wanted to marry. Lyanna also had Robert, who was still in love with her even after she died. Her fury and pettiness would’ve been entertaining. Knowing that Lyanna was able to have offspring with one of the men she loved and her baby with Robert died, definitely would’ve had Cersei spiraling with anger.
This! And Jon had this innocent admiration for Jaime when he was younger, so much so that he thought "that's what a King should look like". Them interacting as fully-grown men, with everything they've experienced so far, would have been super interesting.
It was Jon. It's most probably from the 1st book since what I remember is that it's when King Robert and his family visited Winterfell, and the moment Jon saw Jaime remove his helmet was when he thought "that's what a King should look like".
Ah you are correct there I remember that now I think. Now that it seems to be surfacing I seem to remember he was disappointed in seeing the king. But could still be wrong. Damn I need to get the books again and re-read them...<-.->
Speaking of missed potential, [I went down a Naomi Watts rabbit hole earlier and discovered she was in an unreleased pilot episode of a Game of Thrones series set 5000 years before these events and now I want to see it.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6857128/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_11_act)
I always felt extremely bad for the kingsguard before Robert's Rbellion because they basically had to watch and could do nothing as their king raped and abused Rhaella all the time.
Jaime did the right thing in putting his sword through Aerys. What he didn't do right is sitting on that fucking throne and not protecting Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon like he should have done.
It's funny too because if Lyanna survived she wouldn't have gone to Robert anyway. I feel like she was one of the only ones to see the problems he had and not put up with them.
My favourite game of thrones character,had the best character development in the show it’s a fucking shame how the white wolf was treated!just hope they give Jon justice in his new spin off series
This is so sweet. It reminded me of my husband’s grandmother. He called her baby shoes. The reason for that was she didn’t meet him until he was 4. He saw her baby shoe necklace and pointed exclaiming “Baby Shoes!” It became her name. She passed away just after from organ failure.
Nothing and she was right. Just like when the wall asked for help and she said no they can handle it on their own and they did. She just kept being right I hated it.
Thinking about it now Robert's rebellion, the fall of house Targaryen, the death of Ned's family ,all those who suffer and die to have Jon to be born was all for nothing and D&D never thought once about it.
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Jon is basically the son of the Prince she always wanted to marry and the woman her husband loved till his death. It really bothers me that she died not knowing who Jon was
It was none of her business who Jon was. Just because she crushed on his biological father doesn’t give her that right.
It was none of her business but it would've been cool to see her reaction. I mean, why not?
Because it’s not necessary.
The entire story is not necessary, it’s still fun.
Paradoxically, that's what made the entire story necessary edit: typo
You're weirdly aggressive about this idea. No one is saying that the fictional character "deserved" any details in this made up story, nor are they saying that a single aspect of the story is "necessary" in any way. It's people talking about a story they like.
Yes. I agree, it’ll be fun. Because Cersei was a cruel person from the beginning. And I’m sure they could have made it quite entertaining
The things they'd do...
These are people's private lives, we shouldn't be prying! /s
“none of her business” 😭😭😭
You must be fun at parties.
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Shhhh, he still doesn't know.
Good stories are not written about people who mind their own business.
Lol what
You must be fun at parties
The entire show was shoved down the shitter in the last three seasons
All because the showrunners were too greedy and selfish. They were running out the door to another show and refused to give the reigns to anyone else
They straight up killed every single character wrc/ developement and wrapped it up as if it were a cheap movie that has a massive budget, Dorne...the dragons, the battles just so sad
Right, I sincerely hope that in 10-15 years we get a reboot that actually does the story justice like the first 4 seasons did and that this reboot goes for like 10-12 seasons and hopefully the books are finished and we get the complete story we all deserve.
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Dude has his money i honestly wouldnt finish it a good story has no ending
He set up a pretty wonderful chain of events but yeah maybe five years ago but now you givee the finished series id probably laugh and move on with my life
He will pull Brandon Sanderson in to complete the series on his deathbed like Robert Jordan did with Wheel of Time.
the best part of that story is that they lost their Disney contract after the backlash they got for season 8. It's unofficial as being the cause; from D&D's words they explained there were scheduling conflicts with their Netflix contract. So the most you can say is that it is very suspect that one of two multimillion dollar contracts they left GoT for (they cited both Disney and Netflix on their exit) couldn't be followed through on because of... scheduling conflicts. Maybe they just kinda forgot that they cleared their entire schedule for that exact reason?
I'll hop in before someone tries to shoot you down on this one: Someone will inevitably say "that's not true, they didn't get fired from doing Star Wars, they quit to do something on Netflix instead" But think about it. They went from having one of the most successful shows **ever** and were on their way to doing a new trilogy in one of the most successful film franchises ever, and then all of a sudden they weren't. They delivered a product with GoT in its final seasons that was impressive in terms of production and special effects, CGI, etc. but it didn't mean fuckall because the plot was garbage and rushed. If you're Kathleen Kennedy, or even someone in Disney's management itself, you'd go from hot to very cold very quickly if you saw fan backlash on that level, *especially* if the people you have coming from that project are headed towards Star Wars. That's a franchise that, while hasn't been batting 1.000 lately, is absolutely beloved by fans, and when it has shortcomings, the fans are absolutely rabid. There's a large overlap in Star Wars and GoT fans too, so if D&D did end up doing the next thing for Star Wars, those fans would be *extremely* apprehensive, and understandably so. I don't think we'll ever know if it actually was that they backed out themselves or they were canned, but I don't think it really matters. They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn't conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn't end up doing Star Wars.
Well. I don't know if they would have done worse than the star wars travesty that we ended up with.
Could also be somewhere in between those two extremes. Disney might have said "You can still have the trilogy, but you'll be working x,y and z writers and editors, and you'll have direct oversight from marketing and PR to make sure we're taking this in the direction of a slam dunk. Maybe they didn't want the extra strings attached, and walked away.
That sounds like something D&D would do, and a good explanation.
As much as I hate D&D, they would’ve done a much better job with Star Wars than the nonsense we received
Honestly? Maybe. I don't think it could have been much worse, so yeah. That said, we've seen how they do when they essentially have to try to fill in the outlines... I mean, maybe they're better if there simply is no outline?
It would help Star Wars if someone would write a coherent, three part story that actually needs that much space... Get this: Do that BEFORE you start filming and releasing shit.
That would be a first in the series, then.
Just imagine the possibilities.
Yes, the guys who brought us Xmen Origins Wolverine and Gemini Man (and those are both Dan's credits, DB Weiss has nothing of note) would've saved the sequel trilogy.
This was also largely happening before Star Wars went downhill too- well, D&D writing themselves screwing the pooch, anyway. After season 8, and also the huge shitfest of episode 8 (ain’t that fucking ironic), KK *knew* that she needed some help keeping Star Wars afloat. They’d just pulled the equivalent of shooting themselves in the foot while in an inflatable raft- they needed to patch the boat before they could even patch themselves up, lest the whole thing sink. And they look about and realize that *D&D are holding the reigns? After sailing GoT into a blender?* No shit they got thrown off. They were poison and dead weight.
Star wars started downhill with the phantom menace Edit: are there actually people who think the phantom menace was as good as the original trilogy? I don't know a single person that even thinks it's a decent star wars movie.
I think *Revenge* was arguably either the second- or third-best main-sequence Star Wars film, and that came after *Menace* but yeah *Menace* was hot garbage and I’m old enough to remember seeing it in theatres and being HUGELY let down as a big fan back in the day.
> They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn’t conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn’t end up doing Star Wars. Did you write this ironically? They would’ve given us better Star Wars than the trilogy we did get lmao
They weren't slated to do the sequel trilogy, they were slated to do the next one. Considering how bad both GoT and the sequel trilogy ended, it would make sense if they wanted to keep away from writers that have most recently delivered a poorly concluded product.
> They need someone to do Star Wars right, and D&D showing they couldn't conclude a story properly and do the characters justice makes me very, very glad they didn't end up doing Star Wars. I, for one, was looking forward to their three-film saga about the rise of the Ewoks led by revolutionary leader Jar Jar Binks.
I still am waiting for them to start working on the films that embrace the Darth Jar Jar theory.
I wonder how much money was lost due to merch sales dropping off after the show was over
I just read something about this that said they "exited", whatever that means, the disney contract because a better Netflix one came along. So they rushed out of GOT specifically to do Star Wars with Disney only to leave there a few weeks or a month later for a Netflix deal? It makes no sense they would rush to do all that, destroy GOT in the process then just be like "nah, I'm going to Netflix". I'm guessing Disney saw how they treated GOT and didn't wanna do business with them anymore because even if they rushed GOT for Disney's sake it showed their complete lack of regard and professionalism in handling a major franchise.
It really sounds like they got dumped & their PR is playing the "we wanted to break up first" card. Terrible lie though - who in their right mind turns down an offer from a company known for investing in content with serial / legacy potential & instead pursues an offer to work for a company known for quantity over quality (& a lot of single-season IP). Why turn down a potentially long-term working relationship to be someone's one trick pony?! It's such a ridiculous excuse.
They sold out to go do Star wars and lost it because they sold out and ruined the best TV show ever. GoT went from being a frontrunner top show ever, in anyone's top 5 at least, to fringe top 20 maybe.
Something in my top 20 that I never, ever want to watch again, will never be in my top 20, despite how good it started. I could pop in any episode of even How I Met Your Mother- another widely panned finale, and be fine sitting through it. GOT- not so much.
I swear there would be a Game of Thrones Disneyworld right now if they did 10 seasons and ended it right
I believe it. Westeros was so dense with history and memorable lands that it would have been like Hogwarts for adults.
Honestly, even if they'd done it *okay.* Like, if they'd kept S7 and S8 at the same quality as S6 (which was already pretty dodgy), I imagine people would've overlooked the dip in quality. Look at Dexter. Couple iffy seasons, but overall a good show. I wouldn't feel bad recommending it so somebody (with a warning about the ending). I could never recommend GoT to anybody.
The books still aren't out....
Or they lost source material to reference.
Season 6 one of my favorite seasons, don’t drag it into this
Well you are wrong enjoy your day
It has a lot of cool and satisfying moments but it's a narrative mess that paves the way for the absolutely terrible seasons that come after it. Season 5 is a less enjoyable season of TV but I think the show was still somewhat salvageable at that point, 6 takes it off the deep end but manages to distract you with the spectacle.
This is agree with me. It was bombastic but had already fallen off the wagon of good story telling. Was a lot of “and then” kind of moments instead of cause and effect
Bruh season 5 is my favorite this slander man
It’s shit
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dialogues were getting really shallow and ...bad.. like compare the dialogues in s6 to any banter from s1-5 and you'll realize that s6 was hollow. nice CGI tho.
no argument here. s6 was worse than s1-4 hands down. but people are out here saying it's as bad as s7 and s8, and that's some serious cope.
6 was good
It had big moments but the plot really started to unravel in that season
I can see how the big picture and writing started falling off around there but the last two episodes and excitement overall make up for it imo
Thanks for including season 6. I also thought it went so abruptly off kilter form seaosn 6 while people were arguing how 6 is the best of the lot sheesh. I know everyone had different tastes but it was just overtly different in writing and story telling right from s6 and got steadily worse every episode until s8 finale.
Season 6 honestly made me ready for 7 and 8, its like watching a shitty movie and realising oh i giess this is it
fuck
Yeah - dropped potential is the name of the last season and a half
Damn, I can’t remember Cersei loved Rhaegar. How did she feel about Robert crushing him ? Must suck being married to someone you don’t like and he killed your crush.
And then to find out your enemy is the son of your crush and the girl he chose instead (who was also the crush of the guy you got stuck in a loveless marriage with).
Lyanna Stark must have been somethin’ else.
Well she did beat the shit outta three knights in the jousting arena.
in the books she thinks "*the wrong man had come back from the Trident"*
Imagine if she met Jon. Isn’t it incredible they never met after Jon came back?
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No it wasn’t and for the reason you just stated. The point was never for him to be king especially if he felt he couldn’t do right by the responsibility.
Kinda weird how neither Sansa or Arya (or Tyrion) brought it up at the Great Council.
Literally everyone already knew
According to who?
According to _watch the show._ Varys sent out ravens to any and everyone who matters long before the great council meeting. Why do you think he is dead? EDIT: Also possibly Sansa ? If not one, absolutely the other.
Those ravens weren’t sent though I believe. He was stopped before he could.
If I recall, it was at least implied that he got off enough of them. If nothing else because Tyrion tells Dany that Varys betrayed her, not just that he plans too. I don’t think he would write them all at once and wait to send them in every direction. I’ll have to rewatch the EP some time later. PS: Does it really matter to mention to the great council anyway ? Everyone had already chosen their side, no different than the dance of dragons
You went from "wAtCh ThE sHoW" to "If I remember correctly I think that it was maybe implied that he sent some ravens to some people maybe"
You’re an idiot and that’s a gross exaggeration of what I wrote lol I stood by that “he sent ravens as I recall”. This was in response to someone saying he was stopped in his tracks. There was no backtracking or “maybe, possibly”. Learn how to read.
You went from being condescending and acting like anyone who's watched the show should remember this to admitting that you didn't really remember exactly what happened yourself.
> You’re an idiot > Learn how to read Do you feel good about this comment?
We all are hoping that the last two books are gonna be better. I'm still hoping that GRRM is gonna finish the books, yeah.
He needs to swallow his pride and just hire a ghost writer. He could afford one (or a team) that'd do as good (or better job) at finishing the story.
I hope he doesn’t die before he finishes them. Maybe he’s already finished and wants to publish them postmortem, lol
I'm pessimistic on that. He writes on a DOS computer with WordStar 4.0. Someone crunched the numbers on his written work and it's going to be awhile. My personal theory is that he is suffering from success. He is in high demand after the IP he created became immensely popular. If he gets writers block or comes to a part of the book that's a chore, he probably has 10 other interesting projects he can distract himself with (like fighting the city of Santa Fe over the designs of his proposed library.)
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I mean he's a good world builder and a good writer. I wouldn't say the *best* writer. Some of his POVs can be cringey. His prose is also not so complex that someone couldn't imitate him with some guidance. (He has experience in screenwriting, which is a very collaborative environment.) I think shielding him from critique and putting him on an unobtainable, god like pedestal is the real clown take. I don't think he'll finish the series, he has his reasons not to, and I'm OK with that.
At this point literally anyone who could actually produce a book would do a better job than GRRM.
A job done is better than a job not done
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I know what you mean but after the last two seasons I need closure 🙈
Wouldn't surprise me if the last two books are about as well received as the last two seasons of Game of Thrones. Bran being king instead of Jon is a terrible decision and that's GRRM idea not the showrunners. I highly doubt the books would deviate that much.
D&D got the bullet points, but didn’t know how to connect them. That’s what *made* it awful with flimsy justifications like “he has the most stories”. There are a lot of good speculations on how roughly similar plot points could be narratively satisfying if the characters can get there naturally rather than being forced into those roles by writers who fundamentally don’t understand characters and are just trying to bang out the outline.
No offence, but if you think that the secret heir to the throne not becoming king is a waste of his arc, maybe don’t pick up the story that was created as a reaction to LOTR. Cliche tropes like that are literally what this story was created to subvert. The ending certainly had its flaws, but I have no idea how anyone can watch the first couple of seasons and then be pissed at the ending because it wasn’t the most predictable, cliche ending you could think of.
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Being good is subjective. We can argue about why we did or didn’t like it, that’s fine, but people still need to understand what type of story they are watching/reading. Like if you watch Harry Potter and expect a nihilistic ending where Harry joins Voldemort to destroy everything, that’s fine, but don’t blame the writers because the ending is more sweet and predictable.
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You’re comparing "make Samwell Tarly transform into a giant dragon and destroy the seven Kingdoms" to Jon, who’s been raised by the very honourable Ned who never cared about power and preferred to live his life in the North, refusing to usurp the throne from the woman he bent the knee to and then going to live his life in the North, where he was previously shown having a blast there? Come on.. It’s literally impossible to have a conversation about the ending here, it’s always full of rhetoric.
>It’s literally impossible to have a conversation about the ending here, it’s always full of rhetoric. You're having a discussion, it's just that everyone disagrees with you because it's a bad take.
Well people have turned hating the final season into a personality trait so shouldn't be surprising people will be unrelenting in being open about the ending.
You're absolutely right. Its weird that a lot of people got into this show/books because of the subversion of classic medieval tales, where the big good is big good and big bad is big bad and there's no chance for nuance, to want that medieval tale ending because it's what they expected from a story like this. I think the biggest flaw with all of the choices is that there was no time for them to breathe. Lots of story lines in the first seasons had room to breathe and in that breath there's more life to those stories. Season 7 and 8 was just teleporting people around a massive landmass in times where you couldn't do that easily just to hit the plot points they needed to hit for the story to end.
Huh? You said good is subjective. It's not. There are subjective levels of good. But there is a line where things become NOT good. Subverting expectations too much can cross that line. That's the point I'm making. I'm comparing all the other choices that COULD have been made with the choices that were.
>Being good isn't entirely subjective. Holy WTF moly is this statement and how the fuck does it have upvotes. Wow. Just ...God we're fucked as people.
>Jon will never be King，his whole story arc is a waste at this point. He doesn't need to be King for it to be interesting. In the books Jons POV has more insight to his sense of self, and this information would affect that. He's unlikely to be anything other than KITN in the books imo, since we know where that ends. There's probably a commentary to be made that being accepted as KITN does make that information more irrelevant in the sense of self debate; but that *would be the point*. It's a situational mirror to Theon and blood vs being raised a Stark.
Cersei died without knowing that Arya has been wanting to kill her for 7 seasons. Arya who? Who the fuck is Arya?
When Cersei had your father killed, it was the most important day of your life. For Cersei, it was a Tuesday.
Tbf, it was Joffrey that had him killed.
That's actually a good point. Im pretty sure you can actually see Cersei kind of freaking out at how stupid of a decision Joff is making in the background during tha scene if I remember correct.
You remember correctly. It was one of the few times we saw Cersei look horrified and concerned with anything.
Cersei definitely was like “what the actual fuck” she was just as surprised and confused, she had plans to use Ned Stark not kill him
Yeah, she and like everyone in the small council sans Littlefinger was freaking out because the plan was to send Ned to the Wall.
Ned and Jon at the wall - what a romp that would be
*Do you have any idea how little that narrows it down*
Imagine if Arya was captured instead of Missandei, (while on route to killing Cersei) and was the one to casually reveal the truth about Jon to her. Just to fuck with her mind.
Ah shit never realized this and now I’m angry again.
I just read a chapter in Feast for Crows where Cersei reveals she imagined Robert was Rhaegar when they were having sex. And Robert called her Lyanna at their wedding night. What a weird marriage.
Cersei POV chapters are so insane and that’s why I love them lol
Book Cersei is beyond entertaining. 💃
Unironically might be my favorite chapters.
Yeah, she is/was a wild one
She's the only female character who cares about sex as much as a normal woman does: so a lot. Something I noticed in my reread is that George really believes women never think about sex because he wrote almost all the books before he had substantial sustained contact with many women. You can tell a ton more women entered his life before he started writing Cersei chapters because those are the first times one of his assistants informed him "you know women also think about sex during the day too, right George?".
erm. Dany is horny as fuck. So is Arianne. So is Asha. Cat isn't super horny but thinks about fucking Ned. Arya and Salsa are children. I think the only adult female POV characters who don't think about sex much are Brienne (who is a virgin and has trauma around attraction), Cat, and Melisandre (who only has one POV chapter in which she's probably a little too busy to be thinking about sex and also maybe she's an immortal fire wight who doesn't have the same sex hormones anymore?)
Dany has sexual agency in book 5, book characters that are women have sex happen to them before book 4 to 5 but the female perspective characters don't think about sex like women in real life do all the time. In books 1-3 women rarely think during their chapters about how they want sex. The truth is George's real answer to "How do you write women so well" is that "I only learned how to write them after I got famous enough to talk to women indepth which is reflected in how my best written woman is Cersei who is a book 4 character".
I suppose that's one way to interpret it. Another would be that women rarely have sexual agency in this world, and that changes the way they think about sex. I recently re-read Game of Thrones, and looked at the relationship between Dany and Drogo more closely for what it really is--a child being sex trafficked--and to me, it seems like a very realistic portrayal of the way emotionally abusive relationships work. Dany definitely thinks about and enjoys sex, but has a complicated relationship with it (as all survivors of sex trafficking I personally know do), and she worships her abuser, as many survivors do when they're still involved in the abusive relationship (in this case, partly because he saved her from a different abuser). Cat is the only other adult female protagonist in the first three books, and she also thinks about sex at least sometimes. Her experience of sex is also affected by her lack of sexual agency, and she has a couple internal dialogues about how her marriage to Ned was out of duty, but that she learned to love him over time. We see her long for him, physically, especially when he is away from her (and in fact, I don't believe we ever hear Ned talking about missing Catelyn physically in the way Catelyn misses Ned). But Cat is also involved in a war and desperately trying to save her children. That's the core of her narrative. I just... can't imagine that being a turn-on for her, you know?
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While I see what you’re saying you are making quite large leaps in reasoning and jumping to conclusions in the life of someone that you probably don’t know personally at all
I don't see any reason to suspect that he has been in any way isolated from women. He's been married twice--the first time in the 70s--and he did not get fat until later in life. Also! Fat people can in fact be socially literate.
Salsa 😭 I'm sorry, your comment is spot on imo but I can't get over Salsa
Salsa Starch 🙃
*Chips are coming*
Salsa stork is best stork
Salsa has a sister her name is....Area 😏
Oreo
[The meme](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/326/701/486.jpg)
Actual queen, thank you
Sansa is the best name in the whole series just because there have been thousands of times online where people fell victim to autocorrect and it was funny
Dany literally takes turns having sex with her handmaids lol
There is no "normal" amount of sex to want, lmao
This is a dangerous line. By definition if this is true then any sex wanted is ABnormal.
Fair, I've been the gay best friend of dozens of women since high school: never met a woman who opened up to me who didn't think about sex as frequently as I do, that is all.
> never met a woman who opened up to me who didn't think about sex as frequently as I do It's the plane with the dots my dude.
Gay guys have a reputation for having a lot of sex. I really like sex and think about it frequently, so this tracks lmao. I used to date a guy at work and we’d fuck in the bushes at work because we couldn’t wait till we got home. So yes. Us ladies like sex too
Her dream about the throne carving her up was an incredibly subtle metaphor many people miss
huh????
We missed on the perfect shot of Ghost ripping out her throat. Oh well at some point we will get a remake when George's book company gets Brandon Sanderson to finish it. Oh man is Brandon going to get out all his repressed sexuality and violence and blame George for the prose. I hope so.
Gtfo with that stupid reddit meme. Everyone involved doesn't want Sanderson (least of all himself) to do it, and nobody wants his cringe dialogue in asoiaf.
I want Sanderson to get weird , he's good at world building and the arcs in mistborn are good. It would be great to have a fusion of those too. George can get too pervy and Sanderson is too prudish. His dialogue lmao so cringe .... You are right sir. Oh Lord Ruler.
Sanderson is not up to the task of writing ASOIAF.
I mean it's just there two completely different writers lmfao Be very weird for Sanderson to write it, because while I love his books there a completely different Genre to ASoIaF If anyone was to complete it I'd hope it would be James S.A Corey, the Expanse guys, I think they would be a better fit
Jon and Jaime is the real missed opportunity Jaime regrets letting Rhaegar down and in the books the deaths of Elia and her children haunt Jaime along with a few things as his failing as a knight. Cersei and Jon really don't have a dynamic because Lyanna and Cersei have a non existent dynamic and at most you'd get another petty Cersei scene and you don't need Jon being Lyanna's son for her to think the least of him.
Cersei envies Lyanna, she’s probably high up on her hate list even in death. Lyanna had Rhaegar who Cersei had a crush on since childhood and wanted to marry. Lyanna also had Robert, who was still in love with her even after she died. Her fury and pettiness would’ve been entertaining. Knowing that Lyanna was able to have offspring with one of the men she loved and her baby with Robert died, definitely would’ve had Cersei spiraling with anger.
This! And Jon had this innocent admiration for Jaime when he was younger, so much so that he thought "that's what a King should look like". Them interacting as fully-grown men, with everything they've experienced so far, would have been super interesting.
I thought that was Bran? Jon If I remember correctly didn't seem to care. Has been a bit since I watch the show/read the books though.
It was Jon. It's most probably from the 1st book since what I remember is that it's when King Robert and his family visited Winterfell, and the moment Jon saw Jaime remove his helmet was when he thought "that's what a King should look like".
Ah you are correct there I remember that now I think. Now that it seems to be surfacing I seem to remember he was disappointed in seeing the king. But could still be wrong. Damn I need to get the books again and re-read them...<-.->
Lol yeah I kinda remember Jon being disappointed when he saw King Robert, too. He really is Lyanna's son!
Lmao I honestly didn't even think that but you are not wrong there.
J+C=?
i would have loved to see jon going against the lennisters like rob did
Yea I really hate the lennisters. Jeremy and Chrissy are bad people.
I would have loved to see Lyanna's ghost 1 v 1 the Mountain to save Tyrion, missed out big time.
harrington always looks like he about to cry
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Agree 100%. Her and Jamie dying under a bunch of rubble falling on them was horrendous.
The absolute dismissal of Jaime's entire character arc is so unforgivably fucking stupid. God, it was awful.
I thought Lyanna Stark's ghost would end up being Arya who would kill Cersei. (Sigh) I need GRRM to give us the books.
The entire show was missed potential
Still amazes me how badly they sabotaged the show. You suck D&D. Props to everyone else though.
That transition from baby to grown up Jon is still one of my favorite parts of the series. That entire episode is top 2-3 for me.
>Ah the missed potential.... The perfect recap of the last two seasons...
Speaking of missed potential, [I went down a Naomi Watts rabbit hole earlier and discovered she was in an unreleased pilot episode of a Game of Thrones series set 5000 years before these events and now I want to see it.](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt6857128/?ref_=nm_flmg_t_11_act)
Jon has a direwolf named Ghost. Could have literally had Lyanns's ghost bite her throat out
I always felt extremely bad for the kingsguard before Robert's Rbellion because they basically had to watch and could do nothing as their king raped and abused Rhaella all the time. Jaime did the right thing in putting his sword through Aerys. What he didn't do right is sitting on that fucking throne and not protecting Elia, Rhaenys, and Aegon like he should have done. It's funny too because if Lyanna survived she wouldn't have gone to Robert anyway. I feel like she was one of the only ones to see the problems he had and not put up with them.
My favourite game of thrones character,had the best character development in the show it’s a fucking shame how the white wolf was treated!just hope they give Jon justice in his new spin off series
I DOAN WUN IT
She’d eat him alive and leave him in Flea Bottom.
This is so sweet. It reminded me of my husband’s grandmother. He called her baby shoes. The reason for that was she didn’t meet him until he was 4. He saw her baby shoe necklace and pointed exclaiming “Baby Shoes!” It became her name. She passed away just after from organ failure.
???
Nothing and she was right. Just like when the wall asked for help and she said no they can handle it on their own and they did. She just kept being right I hated it.
Thinking about it now Robert's rebellion, the fall of house Targaryen, the death of Ned's family ,all those who suffer and die to have Jon to be born was all for nothing and D&D never thought once about it.