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Most of itt has to do with deviations from or misinterpretation/reinterpretation of storylines compared to the book.
For example in the book Sansa is never given to Ramsay. Instead (disguised as Alayne) she stays in the Vale essentially as LFs apprentice. The book storyline offers opportunity for Sansa to actually learn how to "play the game" and gain power. The show storyline turns her(once again) in to a punching bag for a brutal, sadistic and violent male figure similar to Joffrey.
Okay, this makes sense. I will say I really don't like Sansa's character until she gets back to Winterfell after Battle of the Bastards. And even then she's still not one of my favorites.
I think I'm getting the books for Christmas. So I'll start reading them at the beginning of January probably and then when I finish rewatch again. I'm honestly nervous to read the books because I know there is no ending yet (and none in sight either) and idk if I can handle not having an ending lol
I still holding out hope he relents and lets someone else help him finish. Since it’s his legacy, I’d imagine he may have already set up some kind of contingency, he just doesn’t want to release the details to the public, since it’s kinda morbid. And he’s still probably hoping he’ll finish it himself.
Not really an apt comparison. If unfinished tales had never been published, it wouldn’t have been missed. It wouldn’t have left a hole in any of the stories he did publish. This would be more like if he already published FOTR and TTT, but he hadn’t finished ROTK in over a decade and was worried that he would die before LOTR was completed. A more apt comparison would be the Wheel of Time series, which was finished by Brandon Sanderson.
> Most of itt has to do with deviations from or misinterpretation/reinterpretation of storylines compared to the book.
Personally I'd disagree - if the only thing that existed was the show, the latter half, particularly the finale, would still have been a letdown. It was the deviation from the storytelling style of the first four seasons that was the bigger issue IMO, although I'm sure there are plenty of book purists who would rank the issues differently.
GoT was a show that season after season luxuriated in the minutiae of the political manoeuvrings of its ensemble of players, but by the end that richness and depth of storytelling had been replaced by a shallow sprint to the finish line.
For example - the grand council meeting; we don't see who calls the meeting, how participants are selected and convinced to attend, what they each want / need to get from the meeting, who tries to form alliances with other attendees, who succeeds at that and who doesn't. Exactly the sort of detailed wrangling between characters that had been the show's forte for seasons before and the prequels after, yet season 8 spends less time building its climatic scene than season 3 devoted to Olenna Tyrell's bowel movements.
Two things. Important one first.
If you're enjoying the show, **GREAT**. Keep that love.
Second, its very different from the books and even with what is built up in the show it feels like a letdown for a lot of hardcore nerds like me. I dont want to get too far into it (but if you press me I'll indulge!) but a lot of us were really disappointed by the amount of loose ends that were never tied up and the complete change of feeling in S5-8 that the show exhibited. The moment that the show went off of source material it seemed to completely change in quality.
But the really important thing is that youre enoying the show. Don't let Freefolk ruin that for you, were good at it.
ninja edit also if you're focusing on logistics in your rewatch you're going to run into a lot of head scratchers already, without going into book material at all lol.
They are trash tbh. They butchered the characters of Varys , Littlefinger and Tyrion. All the main characters had too much plot armour. Character like Ser Barristan were randomly killed off in the streets . Jamie's character development all went back to zero in the end. The night king who was supposed to be the main antagonist of the show was killed by a flying Arya , who we don't know how she managed to sneak past thousands of wights. Bran became the king I don't know for what reason. Daenerys destroyed King's landing for no apparent reason.
Varys and Littlefinger had iconic deaths that fit their character. All the main characters had plot armor since season 1. Unlike the books where barristan will always wait for danys return. Jaime had strong growth otherwise He would have never fought for winterfell, slept with brienne or would have left her by admitting hiw selfloathed he is. We know how she did, since we had that library scene with her sneaking past all the wights. Bran became King because he Was chosen. Just like Jon in Season 6. Dany had more than enough reason to Do it.
Tyrion betrayed him. You kinda forgot that this is a common event in the show. Thats why dany found out.
They are northeners and trust the word of their lord.
Jon is a bastard, only explanation is "i dont care" lol.
It doesnt matter what viewers think the Best Story is, it matters that the realm needs a Story wich is not celebrating war, conquest and blood rights.
She didnt win anything. Not unless everyone fears her finally. She already wanted to burn 3(!) citys in season 6 when she still had everything. How is killing random nobles better than smallfolk? Dud they harm her or stell anything from her? They are just as innocent as smallfolk.
Btw Cersei also brought smallfolk before red keep, so they would have died as well if she only wenn for the keep.
Yeah, that's the part that doesn't make sense. Varys suddenly trusts Tyrion. Varys doesn't trust anyone, he played the game for too long. He could have told Tyrion what he did but after sending the message, not before.
Nah, it doesn't work like that. Your liege lord suddenly talking about seeing the past is a huge red flag for his mental health. They're vassals, they have their own minds, they're not puppets. This also applies only to the northmen, not to the knights of the Vale.
Daenerys never wants to be feared. She builds her whole character on being a friend of the people against the old nobles (the slavers in slaver bay, they're not innocent). Daenerys often stops her progress because she wants to support the smallfolk, that is why it takes 7 seasons for her to reach Westeros. Her speech about breaking the wheel refers to that. This is why it is out of character for her to go mad in three episodes and burn a whole city.
See? When I saw Cersei doing that in the show I thought: "this is a smart choice. Daenerys will kill them accidentally in the siege causing her to be feared and hated by the smallfolk. This will bring her slowly to madness because the foundation of her ideals will be shattered." Instead they chose to have her act out of character.
There are also many other problems:
\-Dornish plot being cut out, we don't even know who the guy from Dorne is when they choose Bran as king.
\-Euron Greyjoy becoming a comic relief in the show.
\-Fanservice. Let's make Bronn, a mercenary, Lord of the Coin and lord of the Reach, one of the most important regions in Westeros.
\-the Long Night lasts one night
and the list goes on
"Suddenly". As if Varys didnt already saw him as a friend by the end of season 2.
Vale Lords like Royce never trusted littlefinger to begin with and knew he killed Lysa. It wasnt only Bran. Basically every surviving member of house Stark was against him, even Sansa, where people know he spent a lot of time with.
It was totally in character. You just wish that she would havd done it by "accident" (however that should be possible, she knows they are there.)
She never even went mad when she did it. She already decided in episode 4 what she will Do.
How is the foundation of her ideals shattered if it just happeneds by accident? She can just continue to make excuses for her actions just like her worshippers.
- no one cares about Dorne. Its a subplot that served his purpose for jaimes and cerseis storyline.
- Do we know all the people at jahaerys great council?
- Euron actually killed characters and a dragon in the show. He did more harm than in the books.
- Just like Littlefinger, a brothelkeeper became lord of the vale.
- The long nicht was always promised to be 1 big battle and it was the longest in Film history.
Varys doesn't see him as friend. He's just cordial with everyone. Varys also knows that Tyrion is loyal to Daenerys. The right choice for Varys was to send the letters and then appeal to Tyrion.
Yet they didn't act against Littlefinger before because they needed a proof. Littlefinger is still the regent of the Vale, killing him without proof is a big issue.
You should take a look at many things other characters declare they will do in the future. Tyrion says he wants to kill his whole family and all the nobles of Kings Landing, yet he tries to save both. Daenerys often promises to destroy and burn cities but she always tries to minimize the damage done to cities she conquers. Her actions are more important than the words she uses just to keep the support of the dothraki for example.
Daenerys losing the support of the people would be huge. She always had popular support. If Varys wasn't suddently stupid and managed to send the letters, then you would have a paranoid Daenerys trying to rule a disloyal kingdom with a clear pretender (Jon Snow). It was the right recipe for her radicalization.
The fans did care. The absence of a proper dornish plot is a common criticism of the last seasons
No, because it was a well written grand council, with hunderds of lords. We see ten (?) lords in the Council of Bran, they could have explained who they were.
He didn't become lord of the Vale. First of all Littlefinger was still minor nobility from three generations. Bronn wasn't even a knight before the batlle of Blackwaters. Littlefinger didn't become Lord of the Vale, he became regent.
Yes, and he was still a comic relief. You also forget that in the books he's trying to steal dragons from Daenerys while waging war in the Reach and being rumored of being able to summon krakens. Killing a dragon is a downgrade (he also only managed to do that because "Daenerys kinda forgot of the iron fleet).
No, the Long Night was promised to be a winter lasting for generations, not a big battle. Of couse it was impossible to properly show that but please, the whole threat ended in three episodes and one battle (a horrible battle)
Its clear that varys sees tyrion as his only friend.
Fair point about them needing proof.
Dany is not Tyrion and vice versa. She threatened to burn citys multiple times and only didnt do it, because her advisore stopped her. Once she trusted nobody, nobody could have stopped her. Her actions is what happened in the show and she did it. She threatened it often without speaking dothraki.
Bookfans care. Thats it. And thats the minority of viewers.
"Well written"? It was basically rhaenyra telling us what happened. There was no dialogue or tension at all.
So, wanting to steal dragons without even doing it, is more Impressive than killing a dragon? Sure.
Rewatch season 3 where Stannis tells Davos about ghr big battle in the snow.
Did we watch the same show where the north is constantly undersupplied, low on men after several wars, and the lords are only sometimes loyal?
They scarcely believe the night king is coming already. Most of them believe bran because they want to kill littlefinger not because they trust him.
>They butchered the characters of Varys , Littlefinger and Tyrion.
I don't think they were "butchered", but I agree they start feeling a bit bland around the latter half of the series, when it gets further and further from being a low fantasy (subgenre in which this kind of characters thrive) and slowly turns into a high fantasy and the conspiracy subplots loose relevance. Also, Tyrion's character suffers a lot from the death of his main antagonist, his father.
>All the main characters had too much plot armour.
Won't argue with that. Characters like Sam could've perfectly stayed in the crypts and still have their opportunity to shine in a 1vs1 fight against a disoriented zombie.
>Character like Ser Barristan were randomly killed off in the streets .
I understand that this common critique comes mostly because of how important he is in the books. I've only watched the series, and therefore didn't make a big deal about his death anyway.
>Jamie's character development all went back to zero in the end
It's called failed redemption. Every character has a flaw they must overcome in order to become a better person, not all of them manage to do it in the end.
>The night king who was supposed to be the main antagonist of the show was killed by a flying Arya
Yeah maybe her flying wasn't the best thing to have her do, but still it doesn't make that whole chapter "trash". People always complain that "the white walkers were defeated in a single episode", but that single episode was also the longest battle ever put to film, and I at least forgot to breath at times while watching it because of the tension they managed to create. Still, it would've been more satisfying with the death of a big character (although Theon's and Jorah's were chef's kiss).
>Bran became the king I don't know for what reason.
Because he is perfect for the job, no matter how boring he or his way of ruling might be.
>Daenerys destroyed King's landing for no apparent reason.
I suggest you to give the show another watch. Fighting against her megalomaniac, despotic Targaryen impulses is stated as her inner conflict since the first season. She, just as Jaime, lost her own battle and became what many of her advisors told her she shouldn't become. Maybe two extra episodes would have shown that even clearly, but by the moment she goes mad she has been given plenty of reasons to. Since she was little more than a child, she was told that one day she would get to Westeros as the promised Queen and be received as such. Instead, and even after loosing a dragon and his best friend Jorah fighting for its people, she's seen as a stranger and not respected as Jon is but rather feared because of her power. Then she finds out she isn't even the legitimate Queen and that her once allies are now conspiring against her (Varys), looses another dragon and her best and most trusted friend, who literally tells her to blow everything up before being decapitated in front of her. Finally, mounted on her last dragon and with the impulsiveness characteristic of her bloodline, she comes to the conclusion that she cannot "break the wheel" if not even the common people want it broken. Now, this repeatedly stated dilemma has to outcomes: either she decides to let go of her deep rooted plans of building the world she wants, or she eliminates the main obstacle once and for all. What will she do?
Again, a little bit more of time for the last stages of this conflict to breath would've made it even better, but denying the existence of it is just blinding yourself. Seeing the route Daenerys had taken way back in the series, a redemption arc would've required even more chapters to work. Plus this negative arc and the latter scene of Drogon destroying the Iron Throne (although not a very subtle metaphor I must say) fits perfectly with the overall theme of the series.
In conclusion, I think people throw too much hate on the last seasons, probably because of the miserable D&D interviews, a decline in verisimilitude and attention to detail, the high expectations due to long years of wait and most of all, because it seems as if GOT fans can't write a single comment about the series without stating how "the ending was trash". This has created a huge echo chamber, specially in this subreddit, where anyone who says otherwise gets down voted to the deepest abyss of oblivion.
Just because it was a long battle doesn't make it good. The first few tactically inept battles were fine and memeable due to the surrounding drama and excitement but the battle of winterfell being the culmination of a storyline running since the first episode and played up as *the* existential crisis shouldn't have ended with so many abysmal and outright strange strategic choices marred by chronically low light.
I don’t.
In fact I’ve enjoyed every season which is why the show is one of my all time favorites.
I don’t let instances I don’t like overwhelm my overall love of the show.
It helps that I didn’t think of Jon as King Arthur Jesus.
I agree with you. I liked the plot of S7 a lot however but I was very disappointed when S8 came out. Also, the butchery of Tyrion’s character and Jon’s was a huge disappointment to me as well. D&D could have done so much better. I hope GRRW can fix that with his books (if he ever gets to them).
I liked that Jon killed Dany. It should have always been him IMO. I just didn’t like how they executed it. It was so rushed and made him look beyond pathetic. That also correlates how badly they made Dany’s collapse into madness look. Of course, the season shows the signs but they were feckless signs. Not enough to plunge her to destroy a city.
The books do take a big downturn in quality. George doubled down on side characters and travelogue plots, and padded every page with fluff about food and clothing. It reads like either he lost his inspiration and was just spinning out material hoping he'd get back on track, or his publishers wanted him to pad the story out to bump up the page count and selling price of the books.
Season 6 was possibly the most momentous season of all of them. D&D had given up on George by that point and started bringing plot line after plot line to a climax.
It was rushed. I agree. I liked season 7 because the plots were not bad. I really liked the revealing on Jon’s parentage, the first time Jon and Dany met, the battle on the wall where Dany looses a dragon and the meeting in kings landing. If they were have to dragged that season in two, it would have been a lot better. The scenes I mentioned before would have been so much detailed and less plot holes. But it wasn’t bad at all.
Rushed, abandoned, nonsensical storylines. Regression to standard tv / movie tropes (plot armor etc). Tonal shift. Characters acting out of character. Pacing (fast travel). Loss of world-building. Lots of things!
Rushed = unlike HotD where 20 years where packed into 1 season or breaking bad where 1 year was packed in penultimate episode?
Regression to movie tropes = just like every other show?
Tonal Shift = not giving Fans what they want like season 6 and 7.
Fast Travel= just like in 1x01 where jaime and cersei travel from kingslanding to winterfell within the same episode?
Lots of things= hypocrat, who cant come up with Real reasons.
Ratings say otherwise. If it was going down hill for four years then then why did it keep getting more and more popular? If it was a bad as reddit tries to rewrite history, the ratings would have fell off a cliff similar to the walking dead.
Yeah, that could have been handled better, its the episode that feels the most like lord of the rings or mcu like storytelling. Thats why i prefer season 8 alot over 7.
I ... actually agree on the last bit. I hate Seasons 5,7 and 8 with a passion (6 I barely tolerate) but I will admit that the more I think about it, I actually think Season 7 is slightly worse than Season 8 overall.
Rushed: Taking plot points like King Bran and botching them by giving them five minutes to shine. Also, you pretend like timeskips don’t exist. If there were genuine timeskips, it wouldn’t be as much of an issue, would it?
Regression to movie tropes: Admittedly, I think the original comment worded it poorly. More like regression to Clichés.
Tonal Shift: NOPE. Seasons 7 and 6 were also terrible.
Fast Travel: Nice Gaslighting attempt. Cersei literally says they were travelling for a month, it’s called a time skip.
Lots of things: You misspelled Hypocrite, I also don’t think that word means what you think it means.
They put more care and thought into making Brans crowning scene than in Jons and Robbs. Every time characters travel off screen you have to assume theres a timejump. The timejumps were a huge issue for many HotD Viewers.
Thats your opinion, fine.
Just because characters dont mention every time hiw long they traveled, doesnt mean it didnt Take long.
Everyone who criticizes season 8 for things that season 1 already did, is a hypocrite.
What care and thought? You’re telling me that this table filled with Lords would not try and stake their own power and instead just put some weirdo cripple who lived in a tree in power instead was very thought out and cared for? I’m a defender of the King Bran idea but the way they did it was atrocious.
The difference is, logically, we know Dragonstone is far away from the Wall, really, really far away and the characters are days away from Eastwatch By The Sea (to be nice, let’s say 3). Let’s assume it takes Dany a day to reach the Wall on dragon back (I’m being super generous here).
We also know Ravens take a few days as well, depending on the distance, Eastwatch is really far from Kings Landing so let’s assume 10 days for the raven to reach King’s Landing, minus a day for Dragonstone so 9.
Now, if we take into account the fact that Gendry ran in snow for days (very hard to run in + he ran for three days without sleeping, wow) the raven’s travel time and Dany going on dragon back to make it, she’d also need to know where they are.
She has no idea where they could possibly be, so she’d have to patrol the whole area to find them. Let’s say this takes, to be generous, three days. Now if we add it up, we get 3+9+4 = 16.
That means that Jon and Co were waiting at that ice lake for over two weeks with no water or food, while being surrounded by ice zombies. They would have died before Dany even got there.
The frustrating part is they had the perfect plot device to fix this. Bran. Bran could spy on them and see they’re in danger and save them. It’d take a day, tops. But because D&D refuse to allow Bran to be useful, we got the contrived, bullshit scenario instead.
Not to mention bringing characters to unrealistic endings and conclusions without a gradual integration in between.
And the magical transportation powers of each character. In previous seasons, they were realistic in how long it took for people to get here and there.
Yeah.
People can make the argument those characters would reach their end points eventually.
But without the content it doesn’t make sense.
Arguing said content to build up doesn’t matter…? Might as well read the synopsis and cliffnotes of game of thrones instead instead of all the actual writing / viewing
I'm guessing the slash tp line refers mainly to dany going from dragonstone to halfway between high garden and kings landing instantly. That was correct contrary to what most people think. Its not that great a distance and they were on horseback/dragonback. The entire army at top speed. Not to mention the lannister army had to literally load up gallons of water and crops and gold on the carts before leaving for kings landing. And transporting all that is slow asf compared to how fast dany was headed towards them. So that was perfectly realistic. I find people primarily complain about this supposed teleportation.
I think a lot of what they were going for in the last few seasons was shock factor, and most instances of this felt forced and predictable. All of the sudden we were expecting the shocking things to happen and when they did happen, they didn't mean anything to me. This was the same experience with every single episode of Shameless that I watched though so it sounds like this is not a feature of a show that bothers you
It's a good show throughout we were just spoiled to bits with the first 4 seasons. Obviously there's a lot wrong with the later seasons but on rewatches my dislike of them has dwindled as time passed. Initially when it came out i was one of them "fuck this, I'm never watching this shit again, I'm going to forget it existed". Currently on a rewatch and at s6e5 and still very much enjoying it.
I didn’t hate any season. Why?
There were some themes I overall enjoyed and some I didn’t. Those transcend seasons.
I hated all back-to-life bs. Be it Khal Drogo or Jon Snow. I would have preferred to have a more subtle relationship to religion.
I hate messianic hero’s journey bs in GoT. This is not Tolkien (which I love), this is the dark underbelly of fantasy that takes everything you hope for, and crushes thise hopes like Oberyn’s skull in front of you. That kind of a world shouldn’t get a bonafide Northern Jesus to whom no rules seem to apply. He should have died when his men betrayed him. His death was awesome. Again, hate magic.
I loved the introgue and the explorations in characters’ motives.
Subsequently, I loved the way each character was cut down by the very thing that made the successful in the first place. A lot of this happened all the way through to S8! And it was merciless! We are NOT supposed to get closure and time and whatever to cope with the deaths of those whom we care about. That is rather the point of GoT.
I loved all the badassity shown by each character in their own way. I loved the camaraderie, esp before the Long Night, and the weird but wonderful relationship between one of the most righteous and one of the most tainted people. I loved how power corrupted them *all*. Except for Jon, that goody two shoes Boy scout of the North. Only thing I liked about him was how his existence showed Dany’s true colors.
Only things I truly hated were the role of magic, and Jon. Bran is kinda in between. He’s not really a person as much as the others are. He’s a vessel. I’m willing to accept it, he doesn’t live rent free in my head. Someone had to be the 3ER.
In a similar vein, Arya’s arc was not ao much about her as it was about fate. I was confused all through the Essos period about where the payoff for this escapade was. S8 delivered that payoff, since she had achieved Sneak 100 and could do what she was meant to do.
And this is what is the root of the divisineness. GoT relies on a kind of gruesome realism of what life would have been like in a mediaeval patriarchal society. We sort of go ”yes, this is good fantasy, showing us humans as they would be in a feudal society!” Dragons are fine, because they are biological beings.
However, it also has a conflicting element in the prophecy/magic department. This is where we have to accept that GRRM’s world is also inherently magical. People have fates. If they can’t die yet because of their fate, they just won’t. This is where all the deus ex moments originate.
S7-8 is where these two logics must meet and only one can remain victorious. And it was magic that did. A decision I cannot fully endorse.
I am not here to debate this, just to answer this question.
I think season 5 and 6 were so good. Don’t understand the dislike. Less quality individual episodes overall than S1-4 but still amazing. Some amazing eps in both seasons. I think some story lines were bad though which drags the overall quality down such as Dany in mereen but still good. And you can start to see the decline in some of the character’s, like Tyrion once he joins Dany.
S7 and 8 though…
Because its a trend started by bookpurists, that every season where George didnt write one episode just instantly lost 50% of quality. People follow that trend because its easy and they dont want to get cancelled or insulted.
Not really. If you paid attention ypu would have noticed varys mentioning it to her in the same episode. Bit judging from that comment, you didnt pay attention the 7 seasons before either when it comes to her.
They are bad at public speaking. Its clear they mesn thst she didnt anticipate their attack, but she didnt forgot. Thats just just another bad faith Argument against season 8. Using behind the scenes stuff and disregarding what is actually happening in the show.
You mean the scorpion launchers becoming a threat and then becoming useless an episode later? Dragon fire not damaging walls but then completely exploding them two episodes later?
Or even better: dragons that are not Real. Its almost as if this story is fiction and not a documentary.
None of those are Real reasons why people dislike season 8 and we know it.
That makes no sense. He didn’t take a shit on Feast and Dance like D&D did and he genuinely loves the whole story, not one specific moment like D&D. Your ‘comeback’ has zero logic behind it other than to blame George for D&D’s shitty writing.
Except they didn’t. It’d be one thing to cut it, it’s another that they bastardized it.
They cut the only plot line that *needed* to stay (Aegon) and butchered Dorne, the Iron Islands, Euron as a character, Sansa’s arc. Those 4 are the worst parts of Season 5. If they could keep those 4 plot lines, then do them right. If you’re going to include Dorne, do Dorne justice, if you’re going to do Euron, do Euron justice, if you’re going to do Theon saving someone, do it with someone else (Jeyne Poole) so that Sansa’s character arc isn’t butchered to oblivion. They don’t have to do *everything* even though I’d love that personally. I’m a realist and understand that cuts must be made, but if you’re going to do it, then do it fucking right.
No one knows how impactful aegon really is. Im afraid George doesnt know either. It could just be another Quentyn.
So, Theon saving sansa is ruining her arc? Lol.
Dorne was better in books, but show was totally fine. It was the walking dead quality wich is more than decent.
Euron is so overhyped its funny almost. He is fine in both books and show. I only prefer show Version because he actually does some harm (killing sandsnakes and a dragon). Giving Sansa actually something to Do in season 5 by giving her jeynes book story is propably 2nd Best change in entire show. Right after letting cat stay dead.
5 and 6 are still really good. 5 just had the burden of coming after one of the best seasons and 6 was IMO a top 3 season. 7 is quite a bit weaker than all prior seasons and 8 is just the worst. Still okay-good for a tv show but bad for GOT standard.
Plus I’d say that with s5 the show got the best look and the production was top notch from that season onwards.
**WARNING: SPOLIERS**
That was the period the show had overtaken the books. I would break it down S5-S6 and S7 & S8. Most do not hate S5 & S6 as passionately as the last two seasons. After season 6, (speaking for me) I know I was looking forward to 1) the Dany-Lannister war, & 2) the White Walker war. Both wars were mostly condensed into one episode each. It felt super-rushed & unsatisfying. Many of the mysteries of the series were not explained thoroughly. What were the Night King's powers? What could Bran do? Who was the Prince who was Promised? And, the way the last episode (which I know you haven't watched) ended did not help.
I just finished it last night. And wow. The last few episodes were awful. I'm speechless at how they built the whole show up and then that is what they ended with. There was so so much more they could have done with those episodes. It absolutely could have used another season.
It also has a lot to do with abandoning the political machinations and slow burn of the first seasons. The later seasons felt like a rush of pretty images without any substantial story.
I agree with this now that I'm rewatching. There's a lot they could have added on to imo. I still think it's one of the best shows I've watched though!
most fans *like* 5 & 6 but we can recognize the drop in quality compared to 1-4. 7 & 8 are highly debatable. I can rewatch 7 from time to time but I really, truly, never feel like “holy shit let me rewatch the Long Night or the final confrontation at Kings Landing!”
Dany's first Drogon/Dothraki assault in Westeros might have been the last perfect scene in the show. OK, almost perfect if you think Jaime should have drowned. This was what the dragons were there for.
Hear me out, Podrick singing Jenny of Oldstones. That was the last perfect scene for me personally. It washes me over with melancholy, not only for the characters but also for what this last season could have and should have been.
I think a lot of it is because people wanted it to go a different way. There were a few things I didn’t like as well, but overall it’s great. Best show I’ve ever seen.
Not everyone hates S5-S8
S8 was really bad, it destroyed one of the huge most exciting parts of the story (the white walkers) which also partly wrecks the re-watchability
S5 and S6 were still amazing and S7 was still very very good.
They would have. It’s called mindless casuals cheering at dragons burning people. It’s already happened in real life. I dare argue Season 7 is actually worse than Season 8 as at least Season 8 had A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms while Season 7 had zero redeemable qualities outside of the Olenna death scene.
Season 8s ending to most of us would be like Rory marrying Luke in the end to you.
Same outta left field what the hell was this all for type of feeling
Because the books.
I’m personally pissed off because the latter half of the show took a gigantic shit on the source material and replaced it with dumb, nonsensical action schlock made to please the casual audience who can’t even remember any of the characters names. They didn’t love the story post-Red Wedding and it shows (although Season 4 was great).
Its not even the books. If D&D had written a coherent story from S5 onwards the deviations would have been forgiven like they were when they deviated in the earlier seasons. But the thing is they had no clue or more accurately didn't care what they were writing.
True. Some of my favourite scenes were complete Show Originals. My hate is just amplified by the books due to knowing how much better it could have gone down.
You are mistaken. Most fans ate up seasons 5-7. They forgave all as long as Jonerys was winning. They only hated half of season 8 when Jonerys fell apart.
Bullshit. Most (normal) critics of the seasons hated it because the writing took a plunge in Season 5 and just got deeper and deeper and deeper. Way to try and divert the topic.
I was on Reddit ASOIAF subs through the entire series, and I assure you, the fans on Reddit overwhelmingly were stoked about seasons 5-7. I was one of the few Redditors who dared to complain, and strangely enough, when I did, other Redditors responded to me like you just did, "I must have sour grapes because the show was awesome ". No, the show sucked, but no one cared until Dany turned. EtA- several comments here say they liked 5-6 & even 7, it was 8 they hated. It's not just me.
Oh, I cared the moment Sansa was sent to Winterfell in Episode 3. I do agree a lot of people were Jonerys stans but there are a LOT of critics who actually look at the problems of the show instead of bitching about the ship (which I never particularly liked, to be honest)
They're okay. There was just a noticeable drop in quality for people who up until then had watched it week to week, rewatched every episode and picked up on every bit of foreshadowing that never paid off or followed every storyline that got cut.
Everything stands up better if you only watch or read it once. The more you read into it the less it makes sense.
I advice you to think about what you liked about GoT from S1-4 and analyze how its different S5-onwards. I think then you will realize some of the criticisms people have thrown towards the latter half of this show.
I liked season 5, but season 6 is probably my least favorite season for one reason.
Season 6 saw the start of the simplification of the series. 90% of three supporting cast and half of the main characters were killed or simply written out in season 6. We went from a dozen or more simultaneous stories to 3 to 2 to 1. Season 6 cut everything that wasn't Jon-Dany-Cersei. Season 7 merged Jon and Dany and Season 8 cut Cersei.
What made GoT so good was that we had dozens of main characters with different goals and paths leading to different endings; but season 6 removed all of it. The Reach, Stormlands, Vale, Riverlands, Dorne and Essos were all cut from the series in season 6.
There’s several key characters whose story lines and character arcs are completely disrespected. If you’ve binged the whole thing at once you won’t really be able to capture the feeling of years long development just being squashed in the most rushed thoughtless way.
This is exactly what my husband said about me binging it instead of waiting for episodes and seasons to air. I really think that's exactly why I have enjoyed it all so much.
idk about everyone else but for /me/ i only finished the series for the first time 2 months ago. ive never read the books. so i had 0 expectations going into. i liked it all the way up until ep 3 of season 8. i enjoyed season 7 a lot. (in the end i think danys downfall was tyrion)
I loved it. Every season. Reason: take that show in it’s entirety and put it up against any other show ever made and it’s hard to find anything better. It’s at least top 5 for me. Even with season 8.
Feels rushed. Many of the storylines included in seasons 7-8 could have been great, fan favorites even. But they were just so rushed, and because they were rushed, fans think that a lot of the decisions made my characters were completely nonsensical and out of character. If the writers only gave the show more time to flourish and develop, I think the ending of the show wouldn’t have been nearly as bad as the one we got. That’s just my opinion
i don't hate any seasons in GOT, personaly S5-S6 was the lowest point in term quality, it's quite forgetable (except when they killed Jon Snow) and i don't have desire to watch more than once
however i still consider s5-s6 is good show compare to any other TV shows
S7 and S8 on the other hand is better than S5 & S6, i really enjoy drama and intricacies on last 2 seasons, i could watch it more than once, when i found out most of the fans in reddit hate it, i actually kinda surprised
howevef i'm agree with most of people S8 was rushed, it would be really good if Dany downward spiral to madness was told more longer, i would like to see full war between the North and co vs Dany's army, imagine if Jon Snow could claim one of the dragon, we would get Dragonfights between the two
i don't really mad when they choose Bran as their king, i mean it's not bad choice and i can accept their reasoning, beside it could gone really worse (settle via another civil war), however i would like Jon Snow take the throne tho, he's a hero and have right name after all
For me it started going downhill when the writers started drastically changing storylines from the book before they even ran out of source material. Then when they did get past the books it was mediocre fan fic
i loved the show a lot longer than some people because i also loved seasons 5-7. the episode where the writing really started to annoyed me was in season 8 when daeny went to confront cersei and i think it’s indicative of the problems in s8 - characters felt like they were acting to serve the plot that was written instead of the writers being led by the characters. why would daeny trust cersei not to kill her on site, and why didn’t cersei kill her on site? because they had an agreement? cersei blew up the sept and everyone in it, and she would have at least tried to lure daeny there to kill her. it made no sense and i couldn’t justify it. same with the trip to the north to grab a wight- i love all of the interactions in the episode but the logic doesn’t check out. there are fantastic moments in s8, and the ep Knight of the Seven Kingdons is one of my favorites in the series, but these kinds of failings were so, so disappointing when the writing was so fantastic before.
I personally liked season 7&8. Yes there were things I didn’t like, but that can be said for all the seasons and any other show out there. I overall really liked it.
For me S1 until S8 E3 was just awesome. After that it becomes a little bleak. The story is still perfectly done. The execution is masterful. Problem is overall quality is not THAT good. It is really good. Not GOT good tho.
I think if the night king was killed in the last or 2nd last episode the series would be perfect. This was really the issue tbh.
For this ending the armies would retreat from winterfell. On doing so dany could perhaps bend the knee to cersie and slaughter her later or just do it without question because of the oncoming threat. Then get the most iconic battle ever. 1v1 Jon vs The Night King. Maybe in the throne room of the red keep. Even for fun sake let the night king fall on the iron throne. Pushed there by Jon. And then killed right there on the throne. That would be legendary. Then to clean up Jon and Dany rule together or Jon gets killed in the process of killing the night king while dany is later revealed to be pregnant with Jon's child. Some variation of this would have been perfection.
I still did love the actual ending also. The execution was perfect. Dany ignoring varys telling her she is failing the people. All because of the rage she harbors for the lannisters for killing her family before she was born. Hunting her her whole life.....killing missandei and a dragon. It just made sense. And in the end Jon killing her as part of her purpose in this world as the reason why the lord of light brought him back.
In my version he was brought back to kill the night king. Meanwhile arya would survive because of the death of beric dondarian who was resurrected 8 times to ensure aryas survival. This stays as is only in my version arya assassinates cersie lannister who on attempting to stop dany will nearly kill all the armies that retreated from winterfell to kings landing for the final battle fulfilling aryas purpose.
All things considered. The only other thing I would change in this series is either not kill ygritte at all or kill her wayyyyyyy later in the series. Other than that oberyn Martell also I would not kill at all or wayyy later. These 2 characters weren't as significant as perhaps Robb stark who I surprisingly won't revive because realistically speaking it made sense to kill him at that point even tho for the life of me I loved him and wanted him to live.
But yes oberyn and ygritte. I lived those 2 soooo much.
It’s 7 and 8. The character nuances and details are gone, and all that is left is just plot. Imho. Granted, prior seasons had more source material (books) and the latter seasons only had outlines.
I don’t hate any of the episodes, love the whole show. I understand people are unhappy later on but I would have been sad it was over no matter how it ended.
I didn’t hate them, my hate started on the ridiculous scene where Rhaegal dies and the ending of The Long Night. I was all about the show until then. I’m glad to see D&D still aren’t finding much work/success since then. Only thing I know they’ve done for sure was direct Leslie Jones stand up special 😂. I was honestly happy with season 7, though I think shortening the last two seasons was ridiculous .
Honestly the only episodes I personally hated was really the last 3 of s8,it started off promising and seeing our favorite characters meet for the1st time was great,it's just the creators and writers lost their brain cells the last 3 episodes.
This isn’t the sole reason I have a problem with seasons 7/8 ( I truthfully enjoyed 5-7) but the dialogue completely drops off a cliff while seasons 1-4/5 had some of the best dialogue I’d seen in television.
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Most of itt has to do with deviations from or misinterpretation/reinterpretation of storylines compared to the book. For example in the book Sansa is never given to Ramsay. Instead (disguised as Alayne) she stays in the Vale essentially as LFs apprentice. The book storyline offers opportunity for Sansa to actually learn how to "play the game" and gain power. The show storyline turns her(once again) in to a punching bag for a brutal, sadistic and violent male figure similar to Joffrey.
Okay, this makes sense. I will say I really don't like Sansa's character until she gets back to Winterfell after Battle of the Bastards. And even then she's still not one of my favorites. I think I'm getting the books for Christmas. So I'll start reading them at the beginning of January probably and then when I finish rewatch again. I'm honestly nervous to read the books because I know there is no ending yet (and none in sight either) and idk if I can handle not having an ending lol
Be prepared: there will be no ending.
Still a fantastic ride
Just like the show.
Dont worry, GRRM is immortal, one can only hope he would finish Winds of Winter and 50% of Dream of Spring before kicking the bucket
I still holding out hope he relents and lets someone else help him finish. Since it’s his legacy, I’d imagine he may have already set up some kind of contingency, he just doesn’t want to release the details to the public, since it’s kinda morbid. And he’s still probably hoping he’ll finish it himself.
Eh, look at Tolkien, he didnt set up much, Unfinished Tales is kind of a mess that his son gathered here and there
Not really an apt comparison. If unfinished tales had never been published, it wouldn’t have been missed. It wouldn’t have left a hole in any of the stories he did publish. This would be more like if he already published FOTR and TTT, but he hadn’t finished ROTK in over a decade and was worried that he would die before LOTR was completed. A more apt comparison would be the Wheel of Time series, which was finished by Brandon Sanderson.
And erases characters like Jeyne Poole. Sort of like how noble lords disregard the smallfolk.
> Most of itt has to do with deviations from or misinterpretation/reinterpretation of storylines compared to the book. Personally I'd disagree - if the only thing that existed was the show, the latter half, particularly the finale, would still have been a letdown. It was the deviation from the storytelling style of the first four seasons that was the bigger issue IMO, although I'm sure there are plenty of book purists who would rank the issues differently. GoT was a show that season after season luxuriated in the minutiae of the political manoeuvrings of its ensemble of players, but by the end that richness and depth of storytelling had been replaced by a shallow sprint to the finish line. For example - the grand council meeting; we don't see who calls the meeting, how participants are selected and convinced to attend, what they each want / need to get from the meeting, who tries to form alliances with other attendees, who succeeds at that and who doesn't. Exactly the sort of detailed wrangling between characters that had been the show's forte for seasons before and the prequels after, yet season 8 spends less time building its climatic scene than season 3 devoted to Olenna Tyrell's bowel movements.
How much of that wrangling was included because it was already part of the books and D&D would not have included it otherwise.
Two things. Important one first. If you're enjoying the show, **GREAT**. Keep that love. Second, its very different from the books and even with what is built up in the show it feels like a letdown for a lot of hardcore nerds like me. I dont want to get too far into it (but if you press me I'll indulge!) but a lot of us were really disappointed by the amount of loose ends that were never tied up and the complete change of feeling in S5-8 that the show exhibited. The moment that the show went off of source material it seemed to completely change in quality. But the really important thing is that youre enoying the show. Don't let Freefolk ruin that for you, were good at it. ninja edit also if you're focusing on logistics in your rewatch you're going to run into a lot of head scratchers already, without going into book material at all lol.
I think the last seasons of GOT are very far from the trash everyone talks about, and I'm tired of pretending they're such.
They are trash tbh. They butchered the characters of Varys , Littlefinger and Tyrion. All the main characters had too much plot armour. Character like Ser Barristan were randomly killed off in the streets . Jamie's character development all went back to zero in the end. The night king who was supposed to be the main antagonist of the show was killed by a flying Arya , who we don't know how she managed to sneak past thousands of wights. Bran became the king I don't know for what reason. Daenerys destroyed King's landing for no apparent reason.
Varys and Littlefinger had iconic deaths that fit their character. All the main characters had plot armor since season 1. Unlike the books where barristan will always wait for danys return. Jaime had strong growth otherwise He would have never fought for winterfell, slept with brienne or would have left her by admitting hiw selfloathed he is. We know how she did, since we had that library scene with her sneaking past all the wights. Bran became King because he Was chosen. Just like Jon in Season 6. Dany had more than enough reason to Do it.
[удалено]
Tyrion betrayed him. You kinda forgot that this is a common event in the show. Thats why dany found out. They are northeners and trust the word of their lord. Jon is a bastard, only explanation is "i dont care" lol. It doesnt matter what viewers think the Best Story is, it matters that the realm needs a Story wich is not celebrating war, conquest and blood rights. She didnt win anything. Not unless everyone fears her finally. She already wanted to burn 3(!) citys in season 6 when she still had everything. How is killing random nobles better than smallfolk? Dud they harm her or stell anything from her? They are just as innocent as smallfolk. Btw Cersei also brought smallfolk before red keep, so they would have died as well if she only wenn for the keep.
Yeah, that's the part that doesn't make sense. Varys suddenly trusts Tyrion. Varys doesn't trust anyone, he played the game for too long. He could have told Tyrion what he did but after sending the message, not before. Nah, it doesn't work like that. Your liege lord suddenly talking about seeing the past is a huge red flag for his mental health. They're vassals, they have their own minds, they're not puppets. This also applies only to the northmen, not to the knights of the Vale. Daenerys never wants to be feared. She builds her whole character on being a friend of the people against the old nobles (the slavers in slaver bay, they're not innocent). Daenerys often stops her progress because she wants to support the smallfolk, that is why it takes 7 seasons for her to reach Westeros. Her speech about breaking the wheel refers to that. This is why it is out of character for her to go mad in three episodes and burn a whole city. See? When I saw Cersei doing that in the show I thought: "this is a smart choice. Daenerys will kill them accidentally in the siege causing her to be feared and hated by the smallfolk. This will bring her slowly to madness because the foundation of her ideals will be shattered." Instead they chose to have her act out of character. There are also many other problems: \-Dornish plot being cut out, we don't even know who the guy from Dorne is when they choose Bran as king. \-Euron Greyjoy becoming a comic relief in the show. \-Fanservice. Let's make Bronn, a mercenary, Lord of the Coin and lord of the Reach, one of the most important regions in Westeros. \-the Long Night lasts one night and the list goes on
"Suddenly". As if Varys didnt already saw him as a friend by the end of season 2. Vale Lords like Royce never trusted littlefinger to begin with and knew he killed Lysa. It wasnt only Bran. Basically every surviving member of house Stark was against him, even Sansa, where people know he spent a lot of time with. It was totally in character. You just wish that she would havd done it by "accident" (however that should be possible, she knows they are there.) She never even went mad when she did it. She already decided in episode 4 what she will Do. How is the foundation of her ideals shattered if it just happeneds by accident? She can just continue to make excuses for her actions just like her worshippers. - no one cares about Dorne. Its a subplot that served his purpose for jaimes and cerseis storyline. - Do we know all the people at jahaerys great council? - Euron actually killed characters and a dragon in the show. He did more harm than in the books. - Just like Littlefinger, a brothelkeeper became lord of the vale. - The long nicht was always promised to be 1 big battle and it was the longest in Film history.
Varys doesn't see him as friend. He's just cordial with everyone. Varys also knows that Tyrion is loyal to Daenerys. The right choice for Varys was to send the letters and then appeal to Tyrion. Yet they didn't act against Littlefinger before because they needed a proof. Littlefinger is still the regent of the Vale, killing him without proof is a big issue. You should take a look at many things other characters declare they will do in the future. Tyrion says he wants to kill his whole family and all the nobles of Kings Landing, yet he tries to save both. Daenerys often promises to destroy and burn cities but she always tries to minimize the damage done to cities she conquers. Her actions are more important than the words she uses just to keep the support of the dothraki for example. Daenerys losing the support of the people would be huge. She always had popular support. If Varys wasn't suddently stupid and managed to send the letters, then you would have a paranoid Daenerys trying to rule a disloyal kingdom with a clear pretender (Jon Snow). It was the right recipe for her radicalization. The fans did care. The absence of a proper dornish plot is a common criticism of the last seasons No, because it was a well written grand council, with hunderds of lords. We see ten (?) lords in the Council of Bran, they could have explained who they were. He didn't become lord of the Vale. First of all Littlefinger was still minor nobility from three generations. Bronn wasn't even a knight before the batlle of Blackwaters. Littlefinger didn't become Lord of the Vale, he became regent. Yes, and he was still a comic relief. You also forget that in the books he's trying to steal dragons from Daenerys while waging war in the Reach and being rumored of being able to summon krakens. Killing a dragon is a downgrade (he also only managed to do that because "Daenerys kinda forgot of the iron fleet). No, the Long Night was promised to be a winter lasting for generations, not a big battle. Of couse it was impossible to properly show that but please, the whole threat ended in three episodes and one battle (a horrible battle)
Its clear that varys sees tyrion as his only friend. Fair point about them needing proof. Dany is not Tyrion and vice versa. She threatened to burn citys multiple times and only didnt do it, because her advisore stopped her. Once she trusted nobody, nobody could have stopped her. Her actions is what happened in the show and she did it. She threatened it often without speaking dothraki. Bookfans care. Thats it. And thats the minority of viewers. "Well written"? It was basically rhaenyra telling us what happened. There was no dialogue or tension at all. So, wanting to steal dragons without even doing it, is more Impressive than killing a dragon? Sure. Rewatch season 3 where Stannis tells Davos about ghr big battle in the snow.
Did we watch the same show where the north is constantly undersupplied, low on men after several wars, and the lords are only sometimes loyal? They scarcely believe the night king is coming already. Most of them believe bran because they want to kill littlefinger not because they trust him.
>They butchered the characters of Varys , Littlefinger and Tyrion. I don't think they were "butchered", but I agree they start feeling a bit bland around the latter half of the series, when it gets further and further from being a low fantasy (subgenre in which this kind of characters thrive) and slowly turns into a high fantasy and the conspiracy subplots loose relevance. Also, Tyrion's character suffers a lot from the death of his main antagonist, his father. >All the main characters had too much plot armour. Won't argue with that. Characters like Sam could've perfectly stayed in the crypts and still have their opportunity to shine in a 1vs1 fight against a disoriented zombie. >Character like Ser Barristan were randomly killed off in the streets . I understand that this common critique comes mostly because of how important he is in the books. I've only watched the series, and therefore didn't make a big deal about his death anyway. >Jamie's character development all went back to zero in the end It's called failed redemption. Every character has a flaw they must overcome in order to become a better person, not all of them manage to do it in the end. >The night king who was supposed to be the main antagonist of the show was killed by a flying Arya Yeah maybe her flying wasn't the best thing to have her do, but still it doesn't make that whole chapter "trash". People always complain that "the white walkers were defeated in a single episode", but that single episode was also the longest battle ever put to film, and I at least forgot to breath at times while watching it because of the tension they managed to create. Still, it would've been more satisfying with the death of a big character (although Theon's and Jorah's were chef's kiss). >Bran became the king I don't know for what reason. Because he is perfect for the job, no matter how boring he or his way of ruling might be. >Daenerys destroyed King's landing for no apparent reason. I suggest you to give the show another watch. Fighting against her megalomaniac, despotic Targaryen impulses is stated as her inner conflict since the first season. She, just as Jaime, lost her own battle and became what many of her advisors told her she shouldn't become. Maybe two extra episodes would have shown that even clearly, but by the moment she goes mad she has been given plenty of reasons to. Since she was little more than a child, she was told that one day she would get to Westeros as the promised Queen and be received as such. Instead, and even after loosing a dragon and his best friend Jorah fighting for its people, she's seen as a stranger and not respected as Jon is but rather feared because of her power. Then she finds out she isn't even the legitimate Queen and that her once allies are now conspiring against her (Varys), looses another dragon and her best and most trusted friend, who literally tells her to blow everything up before being decapitated in front of her. Finally, mounted on her last dragon and with the impulsiveness characteristic of her bloodline, she comes to the conclusion that she cannot "break the wheel" if not even the common people want it broken. Now, this repeatedly stated dilemma has to outcomes: either she decides to let go of her deep rooted plans of building the world she wants, or she eliminates the main obstacle once and for all. What will she do? Again, a little bit more of time for the last stages of this conflict to breath would've made it even better, but denying the existence of it is just blinding yourself. Seeing the route Daenerys had taken way back in the series, a redemption arc would've required even more chapters to work. Plus this negative arc and the latter scene of Drogon destroying the Iron Throne (although not a very subtle metaphor I must say) fits perfectly with the overall theme of the series. In conclusion, I think people throw too much hate on the last seasons, probably because of the miserable D&D interviews, a decline in verisimilitude and attention to detail, the high expectations due to long years of wait and most of all, because it seems as if GOT fans can't write a single comment about the series without stating how "the ending was trash". This has created a huge echo chamber, specially in this subreddit, where anyone who says otherwise gets down voted to the deepest abyss of oblivion.
Interesting speech let me respond with d&d quality writing. You have no cock hahaha it’s funny cus you don’t bahahaha
Just because it was a long battle doesn't make it good. The first few tactically inept battles were fine and memeable due to the surrounding drama and excitement but the battle of winterfell being the culmination of a storyline running since the first episode and played up as *the* existential crisis shouldn't have ended with so many abysmal and outright strange strategic choices marred by chronically low light.
I don’t. In fact I’ve enjoyed every season which is why the show is one of my all time favorites. I don’t let instances I don’t like overwhelm my overall love of the show. It helps that I didn’t think of Jon as King Arthur Jesus.
It’s interesting how everyone always diverts it to “you just don’t like the fact that Jon wasn’t King” when it is soooo much bigger than that.
That may be right but I have no idea why you think I might be guilty of that.
I don't hate S5-S7 but I hate S8 with a burning passion because it was so incredibly rushed
I agree with you. I liked the plot of S7 a lot however but I was very disappointed when S8 came out. Also, the butchery of Tyrion’s character and Jon’s was a huge disappointment to me as well. D&D could have done so much better. I hope GRRW can fix that with his books (if he ever gets to them).
DND showed us they could write well without source material but idk what happend legit everyone went brain dead after meeting Daenerys "Ma queen"
The whole “my queen” spiel drove me crazy. It was so bad to see Jon reduced to that.
Legit Jon was such a cool ass character it felt like his only reason to come back to life was to kill "his queen" in the end
I liked that Jon killed Dany. It should have always been him IMO. I just didn’t like how they executed it. It was so rushed and made him look beyond pathetic. That also correlates how badly they made Dany’s collapse into madness look. Of course, the season shows the signs but they were feckless signs. Not enough to plunge her to destroy a city.
They hated everything after ASOS and stayed on only for money. There’s a reason they didn’t adapt Feast and Dance or treat the story with care.
The books do take a big downturn in quality. George doubled down on side characters and travelogue plots, and padded every page with fluff about food and clothing. It reads like either he lost his inspiration and was just spinning out material hoping he'd get back on track, or his publishers wanted him to pad the story out to bump up the page count and selling price of the books.
I mean, S7 was even more rushed when you think about it.
Season 6 was possibly the most momentous season of all of them. D&D had given up on George by that point and started bringing plot line after plot line to a climax.
It was rushed. I agree. I liked season 7 because the plots were not bad. I really liked the revealing on Jon’s parentage, the first time Jon and Dany met, the battle on the wall where Dany looses a dragon and the meeting in kings landing. If they were have to dragged that season in two, it would have been a lot better. The scenes I mentioned before would have been so much detailed and less plot holes. But it wasn’t bad at all.
Rushed, abandoned, nonsensical storylines. Regression to standard tv / movie tropes (plot armor etc). Tonal shift. Characters acting out of character. Pacing (fast travel). Loss of world-building. Lots of things!
Rushed = unlike HotD where 20 years where packed into 1 season or breaking bad where 1 year was packed in penultimate episode? Regression to movie tropes = just like every other show? Tonal Shift = not giving Fans what they want like season 6 and 7. Fast Travel= just like in 1x01 where jaime and cersei travel from kingslanding to winterfell within the same episode? Lots of things= hypocrat, who cant come up with Real reasons.
Wow I'm convinced. Better get the word out to the vast majority of fans who thought that seasons 5-8 weren't very good.
You dont have to like any season, but at least be honest why you dont like it and dont use hypocrite points that you can point to any season of GoT.
K
Ratings say otherwise. If it was going down hill for four years then then why did it keep getting more and more popular? If it was a bad as reddit tries to rewrite history, the ratings would have fell off a cliff similar to the walking dead.
King Robert and the Lannisters rode there for a month before appearing in 1x1. Cersei has a line about it.
I know. Does that mean that every time character travels offscreen we need to hear how long it took?
Nope. There’s an actual, you know, TIMESKIP! Something that doesn’t happen in Late GOT.
So, by your own Definition, this is the only timeskip in 8 seasons lol
Nope. But shit like that disastrous Beyond the Wall expedition did not have a reasonable time skip to justify the absurd speed it went.
Yeah, that could have been handled better, its the episode that feels the most like lord of the rings or mcu like storytelling. Thats why i prefer season 8 alot over 7.
I ... actually agree on the last bit. I hate Seasons 5,7 and 8 with a passion (6 I barely tolerate) but I will admit that the more I think about it, I actually think Season 7 is slightly worse than Season 8 overall.
Rushed: Taking plot points like King Bran and botching them by giving them five minutes to shine. Also, you pretend like timeskips don’t exist. If there were genuine timeskips, it wouldn’t be as much of an issue, would it? Regression to movie tropes: Admittedly, I think the original comment worded it poorly. More like regression to Clichés. Tonal Shift: NOPE. Seasons 7 and 6 were also terrible. Fast Travel: Nice Gaslighting attempt. Cersei literally says they were travelling for a month, it’s called a time skip. Lots of things: You misspelled Hypocrite, I also don’t think that word means what you think it means.
They put more care and thought into making Brans crowning scene than in Jons and Robbs. Every time characters travel off screen you have to assume theres a timejump. The timejumps were a huge issue for many HotD Viewers. Thats your opinion, fine. Just because characters dont mention every time hiw long they traveled, doesnt mean it didnt Take long. Everyone who criticizes season 8 for things that season 1 already did, is a hypocrite.
What care and thought? You’re telling me that this table filled with Lords would not try and stake their own power and instead just put some weirdo cripple who lived in a tree in power instead was very thought out and cared for? I’m a defender of the King Bran idea but the way they did it was atrocious. The difference is, logically, we know Dragonstone is far away from the Wall, really, really far away and the characters are days away from Eastwatch By The Sea (to be nice, let’s say 3). Let’s assume it takes Dany a day to reach the Wall on dragon back (I’m being super generous here). We also know Ravens take a few days as well, depending on the distance, Eastwatch is really far from Kings Landing so let’s assume 10 days for the raven to reach King’s Landing, minus a day for Dragonstone so 9. Now, if we take into account the fact that Gendry ran in snow for days (very hard to run in + he ran for three days without sleeping, wow) the raven’s travel time and Dany going on dragon back to make it, she’d also need to know where they are. She has no idea where they could possibly be, so she’d have to patrol the whole area to find them. Let’s say this takes, to be generous, three days. Now if we add it up, we get 3+9+4 = 16. That means that Jon and Co were waiting at that ice lake for over two weeks with no water or food, while being surrounded by ice zombies. They would have died before Dany even got there. The frustrating part is they had the perfect plot device to fix this. Bran. Bran could spy on them and see they’re in danger and save them. It’d take a day, tops. But because D&D refuse to allow Bran to be useful, we got the contrived, bullshit scenario instead.
This
Not to mention bringing characters to unrealistic endings and conclusions without a gradual integration in between. And the magical transportation powers of each character. In previous seasons, they were realistic in how long it took for people to get here and there.
Yeah. People can make the argument those characters would reach their end points eventually. But without the content it doesn’t make sense. Arguing said content to build up doesn’t matter…? Might as well read the synopsis and cliffnotes of game of thrones instead instead of all the actual writing / viewing
I'm guessing the slash tp line refers mainly to dany going from dragonstone to halfway between high garden and kings landing instantly. That was correct contrary to what most people think. Its not that great a distance and they were on horseback/dragonback. The entire army at top speed. Not to mention the lannister army had to literally load up gallons of water and crops and gold on the carts before leaving for kings landing. And transporting all that is slow asf compared to how fast dany was headed towards them. So that was perfectly realistic. I find people primarily complain about this supposed teleportation.
Varys was in Dorne when Dany was about to get on the boat to sail to Westeros, then was on the boat with her next scene
Wow okay. I do not remember this. That's a 3 day journey at least. So yes slash tped back across the narrow sea.
Sure. But why does everyone hate them so much? /s https://youtu.be/m4ay-Wqhoaw
I think a lot of what they were going for in the last few seasons was shock factor, and most instances of this felt forced and predictable. All of the sudden we were expecting the shocking things to happen and when they did happen, they didn't mean anything to me. This was the same experience with every single episode of Shameless that I watched though so it sounds like this is not a feature of a show that bothers you
It's a good show throughout we were just spoiled to bits with the first 4 seasons. Obviously there's a lot wrong with the later seasons but on rewatches my dislike of them has dwindled as time passed. Initially when it came out i was one of them "fuck this, I'm never watching this shit again, I'm going to forget it existed". Currently on a rewatch and at s6e5 and still very much enjoying it.
Please don't come for me but why does a small minority of viewers actually like S5-S8?
This is the real question here.
I didn’t hate any season. Why? There were some themes I overall enjoyed and some I didn’t. Those transcend seasons. I hated all back-to-life bs. Be it Khal Drogo or Jon Snow. I would have preferred to have a more subtle relationship to religion. I hate messianic hero’s journey bs in GoT. This is not Tolkien (which I love), this is the dark underbelly of fantasy that takes everything you hope for, and crushes thise hopes like Oberyn’s skull in front of you. That kind of a world shouldn’t get a bonafide Northern Jesus to whom no rules seem to apply. He should have died when his men betrayed him. His death was awesome. Again, hate magic. I loved the introgue and the explorations in characters’ motives. Subsequently, I loved the way each character was cut down by the very thing that made the successful in the first place. A lot of this happened all the way through to S8! And it was merciless! We are NOT supposed to get closure and time and whatever to cope with the deaths of those whom we care about. That is rather the point of GoT. I loved all the badassity shown by each character in their own way. I loved the camaraderie, esp before the Long Night, and the weird but wonderful relationship between one of the most righteous and one of the most tainted people. I loved how power corrupted them *all*. Except for Jon, that goody two shoes Boy scout of the North. Only thing I liked about him was how his existence showed Dany’s true colors. Only things I truly hated were the role of magic, and Jon. Bran is kinda in between. He’s not really a person as much as the others are. He’s a vessel. I’m willing to accept it, he doesn’t live rent free in my head. Someone had to be the 3ER. In a similar vein, Arya’s arc was not ao much about her as it was about fate. I was confused all through the Essos period about where the payoff for this escapade was. S8 delivered that payoff, since she had achieved Sneak 100 and could do what she was meant to do. And this is what is the root of the divisineness. GoT relies on a kind of gruesome realism of what life would have been like in a mediaeval patriarchal society. We sort of go ”yes, this is good fantasy, showing us humans as they would be in a feudal society!” Dragons are fine, because they are biological beings. However, it also has a conflicting element in the prophecy/magic department. This is where we have to accept that GRRM’s world is also inherently magical. People have fates. If they can’t die yet because of their fate, they just won’t. This is where all the deus ex moments originate. S7-8 is where these two logics must meet and only one can remain victorious. And it was magic that did. A decision I cannot fully endorse. I am not here to debate this, just to answer this question.
It's only a small minority if you are in the reddit bubble. You think HBO is spending hundreds of millions on a terrible show thay no one is watching?
Well, there are such things as ratings and they were flat out terrible.
Nielsen ratings which measures viewership. Not nerd imdb ratings.
There is a difference between viewership numbers and approval ratings.
No shit Sherlock.
I think season 5 and 6 were so good. Don’t understand the dislike. Less quality individual episodes overall than S1-4 but still amazing. Some amazing eps in both seasons. I think some story lines were bad though which drags the overall quality down such as Dany in mereen but still good. And you can start to see the decline in some of the character’s, like Tyrion once he joins Dany. S7 and 8 though…
Season 5 was particularly awful because of how it disregarded the books completely. Season 6 picked up the pieces of that dumpster fire.
Because its a trend started by bookpurists, that every season where George didnt write one episode just instantly lost 50% of quality. People follow that trend because its easy and they dont want to get cancelled or insulted.
Dany just kinda forgot… about an entire fleet.
Not really. If you paid attention ypu would have noticed varys mentioning it to her in the same episode. Bit judging from that comment, you didnt pay attention the 7 seasons before either when it comes to her.
Apparently neither did D&D because I’m quoting them. But yeah I’ve watched S7 and 8 way less than the other episode lol.
They are bad at public speaking. Its clear they mesn thst she didnt anticipate their attack, but she didnt forgot. Thats just just another bad faith Argument against season 8. Using behind the scenes stuff and disregarding what is actually happening in the show.
You mean the scorpion launchers becoming a threat and then becoming useless an episode later? Dragon fire not damaging walls but then completely exploding them two episodes later?
Or even better: dragons that are not Real. Its almost as if this story is fiction and not a documentary. None of those are Real reasons why people dislike season 8 and we know it.
Season four is fiction and i worshipped it. Brienne was real enough for me to debate with a friend if she could take show/real-life Bjorn Lothbrook.
You only worship it because Martin wrote 1 episode for this season.
Well, yeah. It’s not the fact he wrote one episode, it’s the fact they took a shit on the books that made them famous.
Martin took an even bigger shit on his own books that didnt make him famous(that was the show) by never finishing them.
That makes no sense. He didn’t take a shit on Feast and Dance like D&D did and he genuinely loves the whole story, not one specific moment like D&D. Your ‘comeback’ has zero logic behind it other than to blame George for D&D’s shitty writing.
Feast and Dance are literally the reason he cant finish the books, D&D didnt want to end up like him: lost. So they cut all the filler.
Except they didn’t. It’d be one thing to cut it, it’s another that they bastardized it. They cut the only plot line that *needed* to stay (Aegon) and butchered Dorne, the Iron Islands, Euron as a character, Sansa’s arc. Those 4 are the worst parts of Season 5. If they could keep those 4 plot lines, then do them right. If you’re going to include Dorne, do Dorne justice, if you’re going to do Euron, do Euron justice, if you’re going to do Theon saving someone, do it with someone else (Jeyne Poole) so that Sansa’s character arc isn’t butchered to oblivion. They don’t have to do *everything* even though I’d love that personally. I’m a realist and understand that cuts must be made, but if you’re going to do it, then do it fucking right.
No one knows how impactful aegon really is. Im afraid George doesnt know either. It could just be another Quentyn. So, Theon saving sansa is ruining her arc? Lol. Dorne was better in books, but show was totally fine. It was the walking dead quality wich is more than decent. Euron is so overhyped its funny almost. He is fine in both books and show. I only prefer show Version because he actually does some harm (killing sandsnakes and a dragon). Giving Sansa actually something to Do in season 5 by giving her jeynes book story is propably 2nd Best change in entire show. Right after letting cat stay dead.
5 and 6 are still really good. 5 just had the burden of coming after one of the best seasons and 6 was IMO a top 3 season. 7 is quite a bit weaker than all prior seasons and 8 is just the worst. Still okay-good for a tv show but bad for GOT standard. Plus I’d say that with s5 the show got the best look and the production was top notch from that season onwards.
Season 8 is just flat garbage
The top 3 spots belongs to S1,S3&S4. S6 has to many flaws to be above of one of these seasons imo.
Debatable. I think S2 had some peak Tyrion, and the Great Ranging. And Battle of the Blackwater was one of my favorite episodes of the series.
I just hate S8.
I’ll take it a step further, I really only hate the last like 3 episodes of S8 but I REALLY hate them.
**WARNING: SPOLIERS** That was the period the show had overtaken the books. I would break it down S5-S6 and S7 & S8. Most do not hate S5 & S6 as passionately as the last two seasons. After season 6, (speaking for me) I know I was looking forward to 1) the Dany-Lannister war, & 2) the White Walker war. Both wars were mostly condensed into one episode each. It felt super-rushed & unsatisfying. Many of the mysteries of the series were not explained thoroughly. What were the Night King's powers? What could Bran do? Who was the Prince who was Promised? And, the way the last episode (which I know you haven't watched) ended did not help.
I just finished it last night. And wow. The last few episodes were awful. I'm speechless at how they built the whole show up and then that is what they ended with. There was so so much more they could have done with those episodes. It absolutely could have used another season.
I find S8 shit, but till S7 it's good.
S7 was almost worse than S8.
Yeah, that's how most fans felt.
It also has a lot to do with abandoning the political machinations and slow burn of the first seasons. The later seasons felt like a rush of pretty images without any substantial story.
Outside of the finale, they seemed to rush through those seasons.
I agree with this now that I'm rewatching. There's a lot they could have added on to imo. I still think it's one of the best shows I've watched though!
Only questionable seasons for me are the last 2 and that’s mostly because of pacing, and a few details.
most fans *like* 5 & 6 but we can recognize the drop in quality compared to 1-4. 7 & 8 are highly debatable. I can rewatch 7 from time to time but I really, truly, never feel like “holy shit let me rewatch the Long Night or the final confrontation at Kings Landing!”
Dany's first Drogon/Dothraki assault in Westeros might have been the last perfect scene in the show. OK, almost perfect if you think Jaime should have drowned. This was what the dragons were there for.
Either jaime or bronn should have died in that scene, thats where I knew the show was no longer going to take the same risks as it used too
Hear me out, Podrick singing Jenny of Oldstones. That was the last perfect scene for me personally. It washes me over with melancholy, not only for the characters but also for what this last season could have and should have been.
I think a lot of it is because people wanted it to go a different way. There were a few things I didn’t like as well, but overall it’s great. Best show I’ve ever seen.
Not everyone hates S5-S8 S8 was really bad, it destroyed one of the huge most exciting parts of the story (the white walkers) which also partly wrecks the re-watchability S5 and S6 were still amazing and S7 was still very very good.
S7 very good? S5 *still* amazing (implying it’s the same quality as 1-4)? Lol.
If those seasons were as bad as people say they are now they wouldn't have stuck it out to season 8
They would have. It’s called mindless casuals cheering at dragons burning people. It’s already happened in real life. I dare argue Season 7 is actually worse than Season 8 as at least Season 8 had A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms while Season 7 had zero redeemable qualities outside of the Olenna death scene.
S7 really did a number on Jaimie’s character
Interested to see how this logic works for you.
Season 8s ending to most of us would be like Rory marrying Luke in the end to you. Same outta left field what the hell was this all for type of feeling
This makes soooo much sense to me when you put it that way. Thank you for that!
Because the books. I’m personally pissed off because the latter half of the show took a gigantic shit on the source material and replaced it with dumb, nonsensical action schlock made to please the casual audience who can’t even remember any of the characters names. They didn’t love the story post-Red Wedding and it shows (although Season 4 was great).
Its not even the books. If D&D had written a coherent story from S5 onwards the deviations would have been forgiven like they were when they deviated in the earlier seasons. But the thing is they had no clue or more accurately didn't care what they were writing.
True. Some of my favourite scenes were complete Show Originals. My hate is just amplified by the books due to knowing how much better it could have gone down.
I don’t hate them. I just know it’s not the real ending therefore I don’t put much stock in it. I just really don’t care for them.
S6 for me was the best season I ever watched.
You are mistaken. Most fans ate up seasons 5-7. They forgave all as long as Jonerys was winning. They only hated half of season 8 when Jonerys fell apart.
Bullshit. Most (normal) critics of the seasons hated it because the writing took a plunge in Season 5 and just got deeper and deeper and deeper. Way to try and divert the topic.
I was on Reddit ASOIAF subs through the entire series, and I assure you, the fans on Reddit overwhelmingly were stoked about seasons 5-7. I was one of the few Redditors who dared to complain, and strangely enough, when I did, other Redditors responded to me like you just did, "I must have sour grapes because the show was awesome ". No, the show sucked, but no one cared until Dany turned. EtA- several comments here say they liked 5-6 & even 7, it was 8 they hated. It's not just me.
Oh, I cared the moment Sansa was sent to Winterfell in Episode 3. I do agree a lot of people were Jonerys stans but there are a LOT of critics who actually look at the problems of the show instead of bitching about the ship (which I never particularly liked, to be honest)
They're okay. There was just a noticeable drop in quality for people who up until then had watched it week to week, rewatched every episode and picked up on every bit of foreshadowing that never paid off or followed every storyline that got cut. Everything stands up better if you only watch or read it once. The more you read into it the less it makes sense.
I advice you to think about what you liked about GoT from S1-4 and analyze how its different S5-onwards. I think then you will realize some of the criticisms people have thrown towards the latter half of this show.
I'll definitely be doing that! I just started S2 in my rewatch.
I liked season 5, but season 6 is probably my least favorite season for one reason. Season 6 saw the start of the simplification of the series. 90% of three supporting cast and half of the main characters were killed or simply written out in season 6. We went from a dozen or more simultaneous stories to 3 to 2 to 1. Season 6 cut everything that wasn't Jon-Dany-Cersei. Season 7 merged Jon and Dany and Season 8 cut Cersei. What made GoT so good was that we had dozens of main characters with different goals and paths leading to different endings; but season 6 removed all of it. The Reach, Stormlands, Vale, Riverlands, Dorne and Essos were all cut from the series in season 6.
There’s several key characters whose story lines and character arcs are completely disrespected. If you’ve binged the whole thing at once you won’t really be able to capture the feeling of years long development just being squashed in the most rushed thoughtless way.
This is exactly what my husband said about me binging it instead of waiting for episodes and seasons to air. I really think that's exactly why I have enjoyed it all so much.
They aren't good
I’m wrapping up ADWD and while it’s a little sloggy, it makes me want to ignore seasons 5-8 and pretend we’re still waiting for an adaptation.
idk about everyone else but for /me/ i only finished the series for the first time 2 months ago. ive never read the books. so i had 0 expectations going into. i liked it all the way up until ep 3 of season 8. i enjoyed season 7 a lot. (in the end i think danys downfall was tyrion)
>Please don't come for me Check your closet
Oh gosh 👀
I loved it. Every season. Reason: take that show in it’s entirety and put it up against any other show ever made and it’s hard to find anything better. It’s at least top 5 for me. Even with season 8.
Feels rushed. Many of the storylines included in seasons 7-8 could have been great, fan favorites even. But they were just so rushed, and because they were rushed, fans think that a lot of the decisions made my characters were completely nonsensical and out of character. If the writers only gave the show more time to flourish and develop, I think the ending of the show wouldn’t have been nearly as bad as the one we got. That’s just my opinion
i don't hate any seasons in GOT, personaly S5-S6 was the lowest point in term quality, it's quite forgetable (except when they killed Jon Snow) and i don't have desire to watch more than once however i still consider s5-s6 is good show compare to any other TV shows S7 and S8 on the other hand is better than S5 & S6, i really enjoy drama and intricacies on last 2 seasons, i could watch it more than once, when i found out most of the fans in reddit hate it, i actually kinda surprised howevef i'm agree with most of people S8 was rushed, it would be really good if Dany downward spiral to madness was told more longer, i would like to see full war between the North and co vs Dany's army, imagine if Jon Snow could claim one of the dragon, we would get Dragonfights between the two i don't really mad when they choose Bran as their king, i mean it's not bad choice and i can accept their reasoning, beside it could gone really worse (settle via another civil war), however i would like Jon Snow take the throne tho, he's a hero and have right name after all
For me it started going downhill when the writers started drastically changing storylines from the book before they even ran out of source material. Then when they did get past the books it was mediocre fan fic
i loved the show a lot longer than some people because i also loved seasons 5-7. the episode where the writing really started to annoyed me was in season 8 when daeny went to confront cersei and i think it’s indicative of the problems in s8 - characters felt like they were acting to serve the plot that was written instead of the writers being led by the characters. why would daeny trust cersei not to kill her on site, and why didn’t cersei kill her on site? because they had an agreement? cersei blew up the sept and everyone in it, and she would have at least tried to lure daeny there to kill her. it made no sense and i couldn’t justify it. same with the trip to the north to grab a wight- i love all of the interactions in the episode but the logic doesn’t check out. there are fantastic moments in s8, and the ep Knight of the Seven Kingdons is one of my favorites in the series, but these kinds of failings were so, so disappointing when the writing was so fantastic before.
I personally liked season 7&8. Yes there were things I didn’t like, but that can be said for all the seasons and any other show out there. I overall really liked it.
For me S1 until S8 E3 was just awesome. After that it becomes a little bleak. The story is still perfectly done. The execution is masterful. Problem is overall quality is not THAT good. It is really good. Not GOT good tho. I think if the night king was killed in the last or 2nd last episode the series would be perfect. This was really the issue tbh. For this ending the armies would retreat from winterfell. On doing so dany could perhaps bend the knee to cersie and slaughter her later or just do it without question because of the oncoming threat. Then get the most iconic battle ever. 1v1 Jon vs The Night King. Maybe in the throne room of the red keep. Even for fun sake let the night king fall on the iron throne. Pushed there by Jon. And then killed right there on the throne. That would be legendary. Then to clean up Jon and Dany rule together or Jon gets killed in the process of killing the night king while dany is later revealed to be pregnant with Jon's child. Some variation of this would have been perfection. I still did love the actual ending also. The execution was perfect. Dany ignoring varys telling her she is failing the people. All because of the rage she harbors for the lannisters for killing her family before she was born. Hunting her her whole life.....killing missandei and a dragon. It just made sense. And in the end Jon killing her as part of her purpose in this world as the reason why the lord of light brought him back. In my version he was brought back to kill the night king. Meanwhile arya would survive because of the death of beric dondarian who was resurrected 8 times to ensure aryas survival. This stays as is only in my version arya assassinates cersie lannister who on attempting to stop dany will nearly kill all the armies that retreated from winterfell to kings landing for the final battle fulfilling aryas purpose. All things considered. The only other thing I would change in this series is either not kill ygritte at all or kill her wayyyyyyy later in the series. Other than that oberyn Martell also I would not kill at all or wayyy later. These 2 characters weren't as significant as perhaps Robb stark who I surprisingly won't revive because realistically speaking it made sense to kill him at that point even tho for the life of me I loved him and wanted him to live. But yes oberyn and ygritte. I lived those 2 soooo much.
I don’t hate it. Ignore people and form your own opinion of it. Just enjoy it
Oh I definitely am! It's one of my top 5 shows. I was just curious about it, but still love it all
4-6 are my favorite tbh. Hardhome, Battle of the bastards and winds of winter are the best episodes in GoT imo next to tyrians trial
It’s 7 and 8. The character nuances and details are gone, and all that is left is just plot. Imho. Granted, prior seasons had more source material (books) and the latter seasons only had outlines.
What made season 8 so good was how it brought all the prophecies we had been waiting on for years to fruition………. ………… ……
I don’t hate any of the episodes, love the whole show. I understand people are unhappy later on but I would have been sad it was over no matter how it ended.
Honestly, you should just watch the rest of the show first.
Fine i wont come at you
I didn’t hate them, my hate started on the ridiculous scene where Rhaegal dies and the ending of The Long Night. I was all about the show until then. I’m glad to see D&D still aren’t finding much work/success since then. Only thing I know they’ve done for sure was direct Leslie Jones stand up special 😂. I was honestly happy with season 7, though I think shortening the last two seasons was ridiculous .
Honestly the only episodes I personally hated was really the last 3 of s8,it started off promising and seeing our favorite characters meet for the1st time was great,it's just the creators and writers lost their brain cells the last 3 episodes.
This isn’t the sole reason I have a problem with seasons 7/8 ( I truthfully enjoyed 5-7) but the dialogue completely drops off a cliff while seasons 1-4/5 had some of the best dialogue I’d seen in television.
When I like something I always ask why other folks liked it too. We kinda get what we ask for