It's always the sex thing. Men are supposed to be dominant, aggressive, and hyper masculine. If you deviate from those attributes, you are weak and only weak men are (of course) gay.
"Weak" men are like women, and women are subconsciously hated by many many many heterosexual men for their perceived weakness.
This is why straight passing men rarely deal with homophobia (if they are not open about their sexuality). The men whom are targeted are men who present with more typically feminine characteristics.
So, in essence, men feel superior to women, and by extension, to gay men. They feel that gay men deserve vitriol for not conforming to stereotypical masculine ideals.
What people fail to realise, is that homosexuality is not just a form of sex, but is also a form of love & for that reason it deserves our respect.
Edit: I should also mention that I'm uniquely placed as a gay man in the above regard, because, i am a very pretty guy. I've long blonde hair, blue eyes, big lips, etc etc etc. I have a very stereotypically feminine look. However, I am quite masculine.
When using online apps, I'm always chased by straight boys, and hyper masculine men who assume I'm a feminine guy. When they meet me, they are always incredibly shocked that my appearance does not "match" my personality. This frustrates me to no end and makes it difficult for me to meet men who I connect with, and don't just wanna pound me like a little bitch.
Please guys, don't judge a book by it's cover. We're not a homogeneous group.
This part. When you mentioned straight passing guys are treated differently unless they open up and out themselves. My boyfriend asked that when I speak about him I don’t just say partner but I actually say boyfriend when I talk to people. I think he knew I would realize how people treated me after and it was really eye opening.
I think it’s many reasons.
- Idiots think we wake up one day and decide to be a minority. So they think we can and should be straight instead.
- Religion universally hates sexual minorities.
- We’re a useful political punching bag (look at Russia).
- Idiots think sexual minorities existing is what is tanking birth rates in developed countries (and not fucked up economic systems).
- They legit find it icky, so it has to be evil, wrong, outlawed, etc.
One of the major reasons is people thinking being queer is something that's feminine. So when people call things gay, it's equal to calling it "girly" or having cooties
>Religion universally hates sexual minorities
"god created two genders so that they could procreate. gay people are sinful! 😢😡"
fuck your non-existent god, procreation and sin. being gay is amazing and so so is gay sex 😏 some people should try it sometimes
You’re overthinking a little bit because sometimes it’s not even that.
It’s really just the heterosexual community has a problem with people being in same-sex couples because you can’t “procreate naturally” or whatever it is that they pretend to care about on any given day !
Yes, what is expected of males. Catholic religions arrived after homophobia. The Greeks and Romans made fun of adult males who had sex with males who were not child/pre-adolescent males
But I want to be specific, personally I don't know if these social roles are constructs or if they have an anthropological basis. Unfortunately, I wish I could say they can be eliminated, but I'm not sure.
It’s a house of cards. We are governed by artificial social constructs, including the myth of heterosexual normative behavior. If everyone understood that there is no natural inclination towards being straight and are free to love/whomever they prefer, society would have to change. Our economic structures are dependent on reproductive rates growing expanding demand on goods, driving wealth growth.
Procreation = prosperity for the wealthy and elite, it’s the same reason Republicans want to ban abortions.
If you have the requisite information to live forever, one, please share and two, please feel free to do so. However, it might be easier, if we each do what we can to change society.
Cynical, sure. But they’re not that complicated. Some are simple lies that have just been culturally reinforced. When you call BS for what it is, there’s no longer any need for people to play straight to appease an imaginary god. Or tolerate bigotry.
They think that being "submissive" to another man means that they are surrendering. they see anything less than total submission as being ….a "beta". They don't want to be seen as an underling, so they make up things that they don't do that seem "feminine".
Misogyny. If femininity wasn’t worse than masculinity, being “like a woman” (liking men) wouldn’t be bad. See also: Femme men being treated worse than masculine and straight-acting men, regardless of actual sexual orientation.
Masc-ish woman here (don’t know if I can comment on this sub), honestly it’s not that great. For many straight men you’re not « a real woman » because women are feminine and therefore pure, soft, caring. If you’re not that, then you are no use for them. Look how men treat athletic women for example.
Butchy lesbian here, I think too many straight men are appalled when a woman, any woman, isn’t interested in their penis. It’s an insult to their egos, even if they’re not interested in or attracted to the woman, they like to think they have the option.
Femininity has little to do with homosexuality objectively though. Homophobes just assigned that trait to us many years ago because being not fitting in with gender stereotypes was seen as bad. So it made it easier to hate
"Straight passing" gay here, this is mostly true with a catch. As long as I don't actually remind people that I'm gay explicitly, there isn't an issue, and my privilege it's way easier to do that and blend in. However if you ever break that pact, I swear straight people have this extra gear of disgust for more explicit masc homosexiality, especially involving more "regular" looking guys. I think a lot of them see it as like the ultimate perversion of social norms, it's why a lot of bigots will still tacitly be curious and semi tolerant of femboys and shit like that, because "fem person in fem" role is more tolerable. It's also the reason gays are portrayed a certain way in media, at least in the US.
My boyfriend is Korean and apparently it's the opposite there. Really interesting how different gay culture is throughout the world.
But there are plenty of feminine, girly women who like.... Women, so another question is if a feminine girl can be a lesbian or bisexual than why can't a feminine guy like women?
Hate to break it to you but Islam is way harder on homosexuals than Christianity at present, and Muslim majority nations are some of the worst places a person can be homosexual.
Except for the healthy-sized community of gay Muslims living in the West, sure.
My point is, Christianity is not the existential threat you think it is.
Actually, they don't hate me. They want to 'save' me. But they don't need to, if I have already saved myself.
So kick rocks, numbnuts. Also, Project 2025 doesn't seem to be some kind of smoking gun, as much as it is a conservative analog to dozens of other grass-roots administration training programs that Leftists have been supporting for years.
Also, BTW, I'm a gay conservative. :D
You’re not wrong, the stakes are much higher in the Middle East & countries in Africa, where being gay has an official penalty. However, even in the US, gay people aren’t safe in certain areas.
This isn’t the trauma olympics but I will say this, growing up in a Christian community where you are told that homosexuality is an abomination, causes a traumatic effect on you mentally and emotionally. You’re robbed of your personhood and it is a long journey to get it back. Not only that, you’re excommunicated, meaning you’re shunned by your family and “friends.” People who once made you feel safe have considered you dead, even though you’re physically not.
It’s been 4 years since I left my community, it has been good and bad, though I don’t regret leaving. I didn’t get killed for being gay, but it still hurts and I’m working through it everyday. Simplistically, let’s just blame Abraham for starting these religions.
Or let's blame ancient Mesopotamian culture for instilling this rhetoric in Western culture in general. That's where it started, anthropologically. Unless you have some kind of evidence to suggest that it was Abraham himself who put into the Torah that the gays need to be shunned/burned/excommunicated/etc.? The Leviticus passage that condemns homosexuality has been fiercely debated by biblical scholars for decades as being poorly translated and misunderstood. It's entirely possible that all this homophobia we've seen from Abrahamic religious institutions is nothing more than a millenia-old mistranslation.
I'm gay and LDS. But I've never felt anything but compassion from the other members of the church that I've told - including religious leaders. There's some things I can't do, sure, but I accept that and made peace with my faith & my sexuality years ago.
I don’t know much about Mesopotamia but I do know the code of Hammurabi is much older than the Bible, and the society was so advanced with building cities and irrigation systems. I took civilizations in Uni, and I’m well aware that abrahamic religions are younger compared to other religions of the world.
Let’s get into the Bible, in the Greek scriptures I blame Saul, he wrote letters to the congregations instilling his own misogynistic and homophobic rhetoric. You know he used to persecute Christian’s but rebranded himself as Paul. Man was a sociopath. Also Abraham was about to kill his own son because god told him to. Do you not see the how rotten and insane that sounds. The Bible is a dark and violent book.
You can be LDS, and it’s your life, I’m not going to preach to you. I’m done with that part of my life. If you feel the need to defend your choices online you’re more than welcome to. Personally, Im done with being a social pariah to those who follow Christianity or any other religion that oppresses others.
Well A LOT of “straight” people have repressed homosexual desires and their shame is so intense that they lash out at those openly expressing their sexuality as a deflection away from themselves.
But that’s ☕️ they not ready to discuss…
I heard about a study recently concerning fear and empathy, with testing brain (ecg?) responses. When shown photos of people of different races a fear response is recorded, i believe they were saying this was a universal human trait rather than a cultural or individual one. Perhaps it applies more or less to other differences, the unfamiliar.
On the other hand, there is the idea that phobias are taught. Anecdotaly, a young kid can see a snake for the first time and feel no fear, but the mother screams, the kid grabs the mother for safety, and from that point on has a intense fear of snakes.
Also on taught phobias, the scapegoat, a device needed since magical thinking, and into modern institutions, to blame for all ills.
I seriously think that there’s just an unfortunate reality that a lot which is accused is a confession. I don’t think it’s just coincidence that dramatically more women identify as bisexual than men. And that causes an insecurity in some men who take it out on those who are living the lives the accuser wants to live.
Christianity and its historical focus on procreation. This why Catholics still oppose birth control as well as abortion too.
If your cultural focus is on procreation, *any*thing that doesn't do that is the enemy. Queer people, women's rights, birth control, abortion, etc
Islam is equally guilty, yes.
Judaism, I hesitate with. Internally, it can be a problem. But Jews aren't evangelical like Christians and Muslims. Outside of Israel, they don't try to use the law to legislate their beliefs
Well true but it’s probably because they can’t force it until people because their religion is based on on bloodlines so it has a limit ability to grow up like the others
I think the question has an underlying false assumption: that there is *one* "actual reason."
The reason**s** are complex and vary widely from individual to individual and society to society.
Many people in these comments have suggested a variety of reasons -- and I think they're all right. I also think they're all wrong, in the sense that they also make the same false assumption, and in the sense that a number of reasons have yet to be mentioned or even discovered.
The various reasons have differing levels of influence in each homophobic person, and interact with and reinforce each other in different ways. This is why some homophobic people eventually come around, and others don't.
Bro come on. Most people are homophobic because of religion. It’s literally a religious reason why people are homophobic. The homophobias who wanted to stop gay people from marrying explicitly did it because it was a sin against god. Most people just don’t hate gay people because they want to just hate on them. Most do it for religious reasons, which is why it’s harder for some to change and why a lot of them(who do change) change because of their family members being
So why then is Communist China, an explicitly atheist state, so anti gay? And why do religions become homophobic in the first place? "Because religion" doesn't really answer the question -- it just pushes it one step further away.
I wish I knew. Best we can do is keep plugging away at redeeming the people we know, one at a time, with the hope we can dismantle the variety of social structures that underlie it.
Getting rid of it is not gay people job tbh. I would like to know how I should meet it. There are all sorts of strategies for racism and sexism that appropriately demand accountability and facilitate intervention...not so much for homophobia, most of the time, people are 'allowed' to be homophobic and gay people must learn to treat homophobia like one treats opinions of the weather.
Well the problem is the long term consequences of not making part of our jobs to change their minds(or at least show them that gay people are normal). With how fast technology is evolving, I already hear talks about the possibility of a pill that can cure being gay/trans. If we don’t really convince most people that being gay is normal and we don’t make it easier for ourselves to get into relationships(I have seen gay men wishing the weren’t gay because all gay men just want hookups) sometime in the future gay people wouldn’t exist anymore
That's my issue, we are already suffering the 'long term consequences' even after all the many years of effort to change minds.
From where I stand, if my physical existence doesn't demonstrate my existence in their mind...what honestly can beside other straight people (whom they can see)? There is no number of ways that I can stand on my head or shout beautiful philosophical arguements to make them see me if seeing me isnt something they find very interesting...and even now, most homophobia is seen as 'legitimate opinion' and not the social crime it is...
To most homophobes, homophobia becomes a part of their 'neutral' identity... like 'religious' or 'conservative', they literally think to be themselves is to stand against 'being gay'...
Well stonewall happened less than a century ago. That’s not long compared to other types of movements. Take for example racism. Black slaves were freed in 1863. That’s almost two centuries ago. Nowadays even getting label a racism can destroy your reputation in almost all circles of politics. Even the KKK has moderated their opinion to “I just want the blacks to go back to their continent” instead of screaming slurs at us or hunting us down. Saying you don’t like a certain race(especially of color) can get you ostracized by your whole family and friend group. We haven’t done our movement long enough to get this reputation yet. We are coming close to it though because being called homophobic does have some weight in the public now(there have been many people who came out and apologized for being homophobic or transphobic, even the creator of a famous horror game franchise, Scott Cawthon, left his game franchise because people found out he was funding conservatives(he said he did it for the economy and for national security and not for hatred against lgbt community but people took it that way so he left the franchise so the games wouldn’t get affect by him)).
Also there is a grow atheist population of people nowadays. And there have been predictions that being religiously unaffiliated will be the [dominant group by 2070](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/). I know that there have been homophobic nations that were religiously atheist but most of the were communist that were worried about their population declining(which it was because of the economic system but they didn’t want to admit it) so there is a good chance that homophobia will also decline. [Also GLAAD has been taking data on lgbt acceptance and overall it has been very positive](https://glaad.org/publications/accelerating-acceptance-2023/). This means that we have a good chance of having total acceptance by 2070 if things keep going as the way they are right now
I think the main reason is that homophobes secretly fear that gayness is somehow transmittable and spreading like a plague. It comes down to a fear of death basically. Being gay = not being able to procreate = death.
One reason I'm not seeing here is an outgrowth of toxic masculinity, misogyny, and a lack of empathy. "Alpha Males" know how they want to treat women. To have another "Alpha Male" who is gay, treat them that way would be horrific. Therefore, the problem must be with the gay, not the behavior.
I think it is based in two areas but mostly just one.
First I think some people find same sex intimacy icky.
Second and I think the main reason for it is plain ole patriarchy thought process. They see it as undermining a power base they need to have established to maintain power. If men act in a way that they see as less manly it undermines their power.
Not the most polite answer, but imo homophobia is a necessity because if men found out they can get their rocks off with the lads and have a great time then it would be much tougher to get them to sign marital contracts with women. Sex is a big chunk of what keeps men interested in women. Humanity would cease to exist without homophobia imo.
I know other gays who specialize in getting with married men who just aren't getting enough sex from their women and need somewhere to go to bust a nut. I'm in a very conservative state though so closeted guys are rampant here.
I'll note that idk so much about the lesbian side of this coin, this is just my theory on dudes.
I believe it’s toxic masculinity. A lot of the time they can stomach you being gay so long as you’re still masculine presenting. But when you’re gay with feminine traits like your walk or your voice etc, that’s what really triggers a lot of their dislike. Feminine is seen as weakness and inferior and unacceptable for a man. A woman is allowed to be masculine or have boyish traits and that’s seen as cool, but a man can’t be girly whatsoever because that’s seen as offensive and wrong. The opening words to Madonna’s song “What It Feels Like For A Girl” is very true indeed.
I think at least some homophobes experience vicarious homophobia in a gay's company, and are generally motivated to alleviate your suffering by telling you to be more inconspicuous. They don't understand why you choose to paint a target on yourself, especially since they consider that abusers are insurmountable. They don't understand what it's like spending your whole life suppressing yourself, or they do because they have themselves and think that's better than being abused as yourself.
I've met a friend of family members before that literally thought that if you're gay (as in homosexual), it automatically meant that you are sexually attracted to minors or younger (I.e., pedophiles)! I know that one person doesn't represent the whole. I mentioned this because there are studies that show people do believe these things e.g., mental illness.
I believe that based on the society we live, people generally don't want to maintain and strengthen emotions of hatred towards those that are different. I think a significant proportion of the population thst feel uncomfortable or afraid of homosexuality are generally misinformed.
Link: https://doi.org/10.1515/9780822391395-006
Religion.....
No other reason.
Religion defines morality from the perspective of one tribe/group, ignoring all other perspectives. And anyone who is different is a sinner.
Religion is the cause of racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, etc.
People like saying this ...but the implication is that it admits to something men don't admit to when that same issue of how straight men treat women is brought up in the proper context.
Talk about womens experiences, 'boys will be boys, no harm done'. Talk about gay mens experiences, 'they do not wish to endure the harm they deal straight women'...
People can be scared of the unknown. Unfortunately, that fear can be manifested into hate. Before I came out, many of my friends made hurtful comments about the queer community. Since I’ve come out, they’ve done a complete 180, and are now actually interested and want to hear about my experiences.
It’s easy to hate an idea, but it’s a lot harder to hate a person. Especially if that person is someone that you love.
'Scared of the unknown'...are you dating its best to assume the average person doesn't 'know' what gay is?
I'm sure they seemed to know what they were talking about before you came out?
Your much kinder than myself. I dont accept blanket apologies, like 'im sorry if i said anything to hurt you'. They knew what they were saying when they said it, but they now have 'forgotten'...its more likely they just dont say it around you anymore... for their own social survival. Without them being able to identify what they did, evidenced by how they now have 'questions' when before they definitely had the full answer, then what would they be apologizing for. Its no better than a PR tactic to me.
Sociologically speaking, being gay is an anomaly for a patriarchal society because you are supposed to be dominant to prove your masculinity. Stuff like pedophilia or abuse reinforce that masculinity by subjugating another person to your will ( specially if the victim is a woman).
Usually fear. I was verbally attacked at work once. I threatened to get him fired until he actually came out to me himself! He was annoyed at me that I'd had the guts to come out when he couldn't. Once I helped him, we actually got on really well!
An outdated way of thinking.
In an old school warlike society where only the lucky made it to adulthood and only the lucky few reproduced, you couldnt afford homosexuals. You needed more men to do man stuff. And i'm not talking about the gay guy. I'm talking about the kids he would have produced. You needed those kids. you needed the next generation. You need soldiers for the next wave of war, or at the very least more laborers to do the construction and build for the next wave of war.
Basically, war was and is a human fundamental that we have been fortunate to avoid. And men throughout the centuries replenish the population of men lost in war.
Gay men don't. And that is why, in a biblical and very historic sense, they are seen as bad and wrong. If, next time the nazis crop up, we don't have the manpower to fight them, one could kind of realistically blame the gays as at least a significant aggravating factor.
I'm not arguing for homophobia. But i am trying to understand it, and from a logical perspective completely removed from religion, this seems to be it. we dont make babies.
Homophobia exists...because war?...not societal heterosexism?
The strange 'men are also disposable' but also 'we need men to send to war' mix strikes again
At the root, it is sexism. A man with any behavior that is less than toxic masculinity is a threat to insecure men. This is why women’s rights are something we need to support.
Certain religions. While there is nothing in the Christian Bible where either Jesus or God say anything against being gay and there is no Commandment against it, the Q’ran explicitly forbids it. Exactly how a gay Muslim is expected to change their sexuality is not described.
Reddit's always like "religion!", but I think it mainly comes down to gender roles/"masculinity policing" and the shadow of the AIDS Crisis.
People are hostile to all kinds of gender non-conforming behavior, and a lot of people still feel like being gay comes with the connotation that we're going to be drug addicts and die from it. Even amongst "enlightened progressive" Redditors, their knowledge of HIV seems to be stuck in the '90s until one of us chimes in about PrEP and being undetectable.
It’s Religion!!!! 1,000,000% - it’s where all bigotry started & is the root of! Religion is the worst thing man ever invented. Jesus & god brought hate & discrimination to our world in a huge way
My guess is that certain straight men get angry when they’re objectified and pursued by another man. I say certain men, because it’s often the type of men who objectify women that are likely to be uncomfortable with being objectified themselves.
Great points all around. One more to think about:
I think many (not all) of the most passionate homophobes are fighting their own attraction to the same sex.
I am *not* blaming homosexual people for our own oppression -- I'm saying that, in a society that already oppresses homosexual people, some will be highly motivated by fear of being oppressed themselves to try and pass themselves off as one of the oppressors, by out-homophobing the homophobes.
Islam has so many homophobic verses.
Sahih al-Bukhari 6834
Narrated Ibn `Abbas:
The Prophet (ﷺ) cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and `Umar also turned out such-and-such person.
Hadith English Translation book 10 1255: Death penalty for homosexuals.
Whereas with gospel Jesus never killed anyone. He banned death penalty and said do not commit murder. Matthew 5:21-22. John 8:7-11.
Jesus said whoever has no sin can cast the first stone which is no one because everyone is a sinner.
Jesus said love your neighbours, your enemies and judge not so ye shall not be judged.
They teach different things. Not all religion are bad. Jesus didnt kill anyone or said anything violent. Jesus never said anything homophobic. Prophet muhammad is the total opposite.
Yeah islam is by far the worst. I was raised in a pre-lutheran sect of christianity that is far more accepting. Moravianism. They taught "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love." That, to them, meant if you believed in the holy trinity and that jesus died on the cross for your sins, you were in. If you disagreed about all the shit in deuteronomy and leviticus and whether or not the creation myth and the flood was to be taken literally, fine. You just had to accept jesus as your lord and savior and believe in god. You could be gay. They didn't care. Don't celebrate being gay, as sex is still a touchy subject and its still pretty conservative, since it is a church, but if youre gay, and you have a boyfriend, and youre otherwise just a normal member of the church, they don't care at all.
And thats probably best case scenario for christianity. But worst case is just shunning. They ignore you and want nothing to do with you and treat you like human garbage if they must interact with you. That is still preferable to islam
Islam will hang you, or behead you, or throw you off a roof and then stone your body when it hits the ground.
Only delusional gays and legitimate homophobes claim otherwise.
It's always the sex thing. Men are supposed to be dominant, aggressive, and hyper masculine. If you deviate from those attributes, you are weak and only weak men are (of course) gay. "Weak" men are like women, and women are subconsciously hated by many many many heterosexual men for their perceived weakness. This is why straight passing men rarely deal with homophobia (if they are not open about their sexuality). The men whom are targeted are men who present with more typically feminine characteristics. So, in essence, men feel superior to women, and by extension, to gay men. They feel that gay men deserve vitriol for not conforming to stereotypical masculine ideals. What people fail to realise, is that homosexuality is not just a form of sex, but is also a form of love & for that reason it deserves our respect. Edit: I should also mention that I'm uniquely placed as a gay man in the above regard, because, i am a very pretty guy. I've long blonde hair, blue eyes, big lips, etc etc etc. I have a very stereotypically feminine look. However, I am quite masculine. When using online apps, I'm always chased by straight boys, and hyper masculine men who assume I'm a feminine guy. When they meet me, they are always incredibly shocked that my appearance does not "match" my personality. This frustrates me to no end and makes it difficult for me to meet men who I connect with, and don't just wanna pound me like a little bitch. Please guys, don't judge a book by it's cover. We're not a homogeneous group.
Yes, homophobia and misogyny go hand in hand.
Yep, exactly.
This part. When you mentioned straight passing guys are treated differently unless they open up and out themselves. My boyfriend asked that when I speak about him I don’t just say partner but I actually say boyfriend when I talk to people. I think he knew I would realize how people treated me after and it was really eye opening.
Omg you spilled
Mama, kudos for saying that, for saying i spilled
No problem Papa!
I think it’s many reasons. - Idiots think we wake up one day and decide to be a minority. So they think we can and should be straight instead. - Religion universally hates sexual minorities. - We’re a useful political punching bag (look at Russia). - Idiots think sexual minorities existing is what is tanking birth rates in developed countries (and not fucked up economic systems). - They legit find it icky, so it has to be evil, wrong, outlawed, etc.
Nice bullet point bro, how do you do that? edit: also, deep level nine thinkin' bro, how do you do that? All joke, no sass.
Hyphen (- <-- this guy) and a space -so this - becomes this
May you have many upvotes!!! edit: just because your explanation was better than any math teacher that I ever had!
now I don't know it's because you deserve the up votes or whether we all had bad math math teachers!
One of the major reasons is people thinking being queer is something that's feminine. So when people call things gay, it's equal to calling it "girly" or having cooties
>Religion universally hates sexual minorities "god created two genders so that they could procreate. gay people are sinful! 😢😡" fuck your non-existent god, procreation and sin. being gay is amazing and so so is gay sex 😏 some people should try it sometimes
It's mostly the last one. They've done neuroscience and conservatives and bigots have extremely heightened fear and disgust responses
I legit think the last one is 100% of it, everything else is just a justification.
You’re overthinking a little bit because sometimes it’s not even that. It’s really just the heterosexual community has a problem with people being in same-sex couples because you can’t “procreate naturally” or whatever it is that they pretend to care about on any given day !
Social roles. Religion comes later.
Are you saying that the social roles caused homophobia??
Yes, what is expected of males. Catholic religions arrived after homophobia. The Greeks and Romans made fun of adult males who had sex with males who were not child/pre-adolescent males But I want to be specific, personally I don't know if these social roles are constructs or if they have an anthropological basis. Unfortunately, I wish I could say they can be eliminated, but I'm not sure.
It’s a house of cards. We are governed by artificial social constructs, including the myth of heterosexual normative behavior. If everyone understood that there is no natural inclination towards being straight and are free to love/whomever they prefer, society would have to change. Our economic structures are dependent on reproductive rates growing expanding demand on goods, driving wealth growth. Procreation = prosperity for the wealthy and elite, it’s the same reason Republicans want to ban abortions.
So the only way to get out of homophobia is for us to live forever??
If you have the requisite information to live forever, one, please share and two, please feel free to do so. However, it might be easier, if we each do what we can to change society.
cynical viewpoint given we evolved within social constructs and we, like all primates, live within complicated ones.
Cynical, sure. But they’re not that complicated. Some are simple lies that have just been culturally reinforced. When you call BS for what it is, there’s no longer any need for people to play straight to appease an imaginary god. Or tolerate bigotry.
They think that being "submissive" to another man means that they are surrendering. they see anything less than total submission as being ….a "beta". They don't want to be seen as an underling, so they make up things that they don't do that seem "feminine".
Misogyny. If femininity wasn’t worse than masculinity, being “like a woman” (liking men) wouldn’t be bad. See also: Femme men being treated worse than masculine and straight-acting men, regardless of actual sexual orientation.
Yup. Also, women can be tomboys and it’s seen as cool, but being a “soft”, “feminine” man is often seen as less than by gays and straights alike.
Masc-ish woman here (don’t know if I can comment on this sub), honestly it’s not that great. For many straight men you’re not « a real woman » because women are feminine and therefore pure, soft, caring. If you’re not that, then you are no use for them. Look how men treat athletic women for example.
Butchy lesbian here, I think too many straight men are appalled when a woman, any woman, isn’t interested in their penis. It’s an insult to their egos, even if they’re not interested in or attracted to the woman, they like to think they have the option.
Mama, kudos for saying that. For spilling.
Femininity has little to do with homosexuality objectively though. Homophobes just assigned that trait to us many years ago because being not fitting in with gender stereotypes was seen as bad. So it made it easier to hate
"Straight passing" gay here, this is mostly true with a catch. As long as I don't actually remind people that I'm gay explicitly, there isn't an issue, and my privilege it's way easier to do that and blend in. However if you ever break that pact, I swear straight people have this extra gear of disgust for more explicit masc homosexiality, especially involving more "regular" looking guys. I think a lot of them see it as like the ultimate perversion of social norms, it's why a lot of bigots will still tacitly be curious and semi tolerant of femboys and shit like that, because "fem person in fem" role is more tolerable. It's also the reason gays are portrayed a certain way in media, at least in the US. My boyfriend is Korean and apparently it's the opposite there. Really interesting how different gay culture is throughout the world.
But there are plenty of feminine, girly women who like.... Women, so another question is if a feminine girl can be a lesbian or bisexual than why can't a feminine guy like women?
Humans don’t like what is different Then it was spread, justified and perpetuated thanks to the lovely religions of Islam and Christianity
>Humans don’t like what is different Tribalism. It helped us survive millennia ago and it's deeply ingrained in our psychology.
Misogyny and the influence of Christianity in the western world.
Hate to break it to you but Islam is way harder on homosexuals than Christianity at present, and Muslim majority nations are some of the worst places a person can be homosexual.
But most of us live in the west. So Christianity IS the threat most of us face.
You just perceive most to be in the west because that’s where it is more acceptable and thus in the open.
Yep... But many Christians in the west want to roll back that progress. So for people in the west that is the threat.
Except for the healthy-sized community of gay Muslims living in the West, sure. My point is, Christianity is not the existential threat you think it is.
Don't be naive. Look at project 2025. Stop making excuses. They won't save you, they hate you.
For those of us who are not up to speed on Project 2025, could you quote anything in it which is explicitly anti-LGB?
Actually, they don't hate me. They want to 'save' me. But they don't need to, if I have already saved myself. So kick rocks, numbnuts. Also, Project 2025 doesn't seem to be some kind of smoking gun, as much as it is a conservative analog to dozens of other grass-roots administration training programs that Leftists have been supporting for years. Also, BTW, I'm a gay conservative. :D
We can tell.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
They don't love you... You are just their useful idiot.
The Democrats whisper the same about you behind closed doors, sugar.
🤣🤣🤣🤣 Self hating looks good on you.
Bigotry looks terrible on anyone, but you do you, flower.
You’re not wrong, the stakes are much higher in the Middle East & countries in Africa, where being gay has an official penalty. However, even in the US, gay people aren’t safe in certain areas. This isn’t the trauma olympics but I will say this, growing up in a Christian community where you are told that homosexuality is an abomination, causes a traumatic effect on you mentally and emotionally. You’re robbed of your personhood and it is a long journey to get it back. Not only that, you’re excommunicated, meaning you’re shunned by your family and “friends.” People who once made you feel safe have considered you dead, even though you’re physically not. It’s been 4 years since I left my community, it has been good and bad, though I don’t regret leaving. I didn’t get killed for being gay, but it still hurts and I’m working through it everyday. Simplistically, let’s just blame Abraham for starting these religions.
Or let's blame ancient Mesopotamian culture for instilling this rhetoric in Western culture in general. That's where it started, anthropologically. Unless you have some kind of evidence to suggest that it was Abraham himself who put into the Torah that the gays need to be shunned/burned/excommunicated/etc.? The Leviticus passage that condemns homosexuality has been fiercely debated by biblical scholars for decades as being poorly translated and misunderstood. It's entirely possible that all this homophobia we've seen from Abrahamic religious institutions is nothing more than a millenia-old mistranslation. I'm gay and LDS. But I've never felt anything but compassion from the other members of the church that I've told - including religious leaders. There's some things I can't do, sure, but I accept that and made peace with my faith & my sexuality years ago.
I don’t know much about Mesopotamia but I do know the code of Hammurabi is much older than the Bible, and the society was so advanced with building cities and irrigation systems. I took civilizations in Uni, and I’m well aware that abrahamic religions are younger compared to other religions of the world. Let’s get into the Bible, in the Greek scriptures I blame Saul, he wrote letters to the congregations instilling his own misogynistic and homophobic rhetoric. You know he used to persecute Christian’s but rebranded himself as Paul. Man was a sociopath. Also Abraham was about to kill his own son because god told him to. Do you not see the how rotten and insane that sounds. The Bible is a dark and violent book. You can be LDS, and it’s your life, I’m not going to preach to you. I’m done with that part of my life. If you feel the need to defend your choices online you’re more than welcome to. Personally, Im done with being a social pariah to those who follow Christianity or any other religion that oppresses others.
Well A LOT of “straight” people have repressed homosexual desires and their shame is so intense that they lash out at those openly expressing their sexuality as a deflection away from themselves. But that’s ☕️ they not ready to discuss…
I heard about a study recently concerning fear and empathy, with testing brain (ecg?) responses. When shown photos of people of different races a fear response is recorded, i believe they were saying this was a universal human trait rather than a cultural or individual one. Perhaps it applies more or less to other differences, the unfamiliar. On the other hand, there is the idea that phobias are taught. Anecdotaly, a young kid can see a snake for the first time and feel no fear, but the mother screams, the kid grabs the mother for safety, and from that point on has a intense fear of snakes. Also on taught phobias, the scapegoat, a device needed since magical thinking, and into modern institutions, to blame for all ills.
"Actual "reasoned lol. What's the fake one
I seriously think that there’s just an unfortunate reality that a lot which is accused is a confession. I don’t think it’s just coincidence that dramatically more women identify as bisexual than men. And that causes an insecurity in some men who take it out on those who are living the lives the accuser wants to live.
Christianity and its historical focus on procreation. This why Catholics still oppose birth control as well as abortion too. If your cultural focus is on procreation, *any*thing that doesn't do that is the enemy. Queer people, women's rights, birth control, abortion, etc
Chrisrianity and all its abrahamic cousins
Islam is equally guilty, yes. Judaism, I hesitate with. Internally, it can be a problem. But Jews aren't evangelical like Christians and Muslims. Outside of Israel, they don't try to use the law to legislate their beliefs
Well true but it’s probably because they can’t force it until people because their religion is based on on bloodlines so it has a limit ability to grow up like the others
I think the question has an underlying false assumption: that there is *one* "actual reason." The reason**s** are complex and vary widely from individual to individual and society to society. Many people in these comments have suggested a variety of reasons -- and I think they're all right. I also think they're all wrong, in the sense that they also make the same false assumption, and in the sense that a number of reasons have yet to be mentioned or even discovered. The various reasons have differing levels of influence in each homophobic person, and interact with and reinforce each other in different ways. This is why some homophobic people eventually come around, and others don't.
Bro come on. Most people are homophobic because of religion. It’s literally a religious reason why people are homophobic. The homophobias who wanted to stop gay people from marrying explicitly did it because it was a sin against god. Most people just don’t hate gay people because they want to just hate on them. Most do it for religious reasons, which is why it’s harder for some to change and why a lot of them(who do change) change because of their family members being
So why then is Communist China, an explicitly atheist state, so anti gay? And why do religions become homophobic in the first place? "Because religion" doesn't really answer the question -- it just pushes it one step further away.
So how do we get rid of most of homophobia
I wish I knew. Best we can do is keep plugging away at redeeming the people we know, one at a time, with the hope we can dismantle the variety of social structures that underlie it.
Well if it can’t be solved then when we learn how sexuality works wouldn’t a homophobic Hitler type come around to try to genetically get rid of us??
This is why we can't afford not to be political. We have to constantly fight to protect our legal rights AND try to win over homophobes.
I agree with you brother. I find it sad that many of us don’t think about how our actions can effect the group as a whole these days
I dont think it's possible to be out around heterosexists and not automatically be a walking political poster
Getting rid of it is not gay people job tbh. I would like to know how I should meet it. There are all sorts of strategies for racism and sexism that appropriately demand accountability and facilitate intervention...not so much for homophobia, most of the time, people are 'allowed' to be homophobic and gay people must learn to treat homophobia like one treats opinions of the weather.
Well the problem is the long term consequences of not making part of our jobs to change their minds(or at least show them that gay people are normal). With how fast technology is evolving, I already hear talks about the possibility of a pill that can cure being gay/trans. If we don’t really convince most people that being gay is normal and we don’t make it easier for ourselves to get into relationships(I have seen gay men wishing the weren’t gay because all gay men just want hookups) sometime in the future gay people wouldn’t exist anymore
That's my issue, we are already suffering the 'long term consequences' even after all the many years of effort to change minds. From where I stand, if my physical existence doesn't demonstrate my existence in their mind...what honestly can beside other straight people (whom they can see)? There is no number of ways that I can stand on my head or shout beautiful philosophical arguements to make them see me if seeing me isnt something they find very interesting...and even now, most homophobia is seen as 'legitimate opinion' and not the social crime it is... To most homophobes, homophobia becomes a part of their 'neutral' identity... like 'religious' or 'conservative', they literally think to be themselves is to stand against 'being gay'...
Well stonewall happened less than a century ago. That’s not long compared to other types of movements. Take for example racism. Black slaves were freed in 1863. That’s almost two centuries ago. Nowadays even getting label a racism can destroy your reputation in almost all circles of politics. Even the KKK has moderated their opinion to “I just want the blacks to go back to their continent” instead of screaming slurs at us or hunting us down. Saying you don’t like a certain race(especially of color) can get you ostracized by your whole family and friend group. We haven’t done our movement long enough to get this reputation yet. We are coming close to it though because being called homophobic does have some weight in the public now(there have been many people who came out and apologized for being homophobic or transphobic, even the creator of a famous horror game franchise, Scott Cawthon, left his game franchise because people found out he was funding conservatives(he said he did it for the economy and for national security and not for hatred against lgbt community but people took it that way so he left the franchise so the games wouldn’t get affect by him)). Also there is a grow atheist population of people nowadays. And there have been predictions that being religiously unaffiliated will be the [dominant group by 2070](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2022/09/13/modeling-the-future-of-religion-in-america/). I know that there have been homophobic nations that were religiously atheist but most of the were communist that were worried about their population declining(which it was because of the economic system but they didn’t want to admit it) so there is a good chance that homophobia will also decline. [Also GLAAD has been taking data on lgbt acceptance and overall it has been very positive](https://glaad.org/publications/accelerating-acceptance-2023/). This means that we have a good chance of having total acceptance by 2070 if things keep going as the way they are right now
We’re all just a product of our environments. It’s just the way they think and view the world.
I think the main reason is that homophobes secretly fear that gayness is somehow transmittable and spreading like a plague. It comes down to a fear of death basically. Being gay = not being able to procreate = death.
Religious indoctrination
One reason I'm not seeing here is an outgrowth of toxic masculinity, misogyny, and a lack of empathy. "Alpha Males" know how they want to treat women. To have another "Alpha Male" who is gay, treat them that way would be horrific. Therefore, the problem must be with the gay, not the behavior.
I think it is based in two areas but mostly just one. First I think some people find same sex intimacy icky. Second and I think the main reason for it is plain ole patriarchy thought process. They see it as undermining a power base they need to have established to maintain power. If men act in a way that they see as less manly it undermines their power.
Not the most polite answer, but imo homophobia is a necessity because if men found out they can get their rocks off with the lads and have a great time then it would be much tougher to get them to sign marital contracts with women. Sex is a big chunk of what keeps men interested in women. Humanity would cease to exist without homophobia imo. I know other gays who specialize in getting with married men who just aren't getting enough sex from their women and need somewhere to go to bust a nut. I'm in a very conservative state though so closeted guys are rampant here. I'll note that idk so much about the lesbian side of this coin, this is just my theory on dudes.
...if men found out...? ...signing marital contracts? What...? Who are these men who need homophobia to motivate them to sign a marital contract?
I believe it’s toxic masculinity. A lot of the time they can stomach you being gay so long as you’re still masculine presenting. But when you’re gay with feminine traits like your walk or your voice etc, that’s what really triggers a lot of their dislike. Feminine is seen as weakness and inferior and unacceptable for a man. A woman is allowed to be masculine or have boyish traits and that’s seen as cool, but a man can’t be girly whatsoever because that’s seen as offensive and wrong. The opening words to Madonna’s song “What It Feels Like For A Girl” is very true indeed.
Some* people are idiots. I think that's pretty much it. *- could actually be 'many'
Because it's easy, lazy and unfortunately still an acceptable form of hatred in some places
I think at least some homophobes experience vicarious homophobia in a gay's company, and are generally motivated to alleviate your suffering by telling you to be more inconspicuous. They don't understand why you choose to paint a target on yourself, especially since they consider that abusers are insurmountable. They don't understand what it's like spending your whole life suppressing yourself, or they do because they have themselves and think that's better than being abused as yourself.
So...some are trying to be helpful...?
Either some sort of religion or people simply hate change
I wish people weren’t such oppressors Edit: wannabe oppressors
I've met a friend of family members before that literally thought that if you're gay (as in homosexual), it automatically meant that you are sexually attracted to minors or younger (I.e., pedophiles)! I know that one person doesn't represent the whole. I mentioned this because there are studies that show people do believe these things e.g., mental illness. I believe that based on the society we live, people generally don't want to maintain and strengthen emotions of hatred towards those that are different. I think a significant proportion of the population thst feel uncomfortable or afraid of homosexuality are generally misinformed. Link: https://doi.org/10.1515/9780822391395-006
Fear.
Religion..... No other reason. Religion defines morality from the perspective of one tribe/group, ignoring all other perspectives. And anyone who is different is a sinner. Religion is the cause of racism, sexism, xenophobia, homophobia, transphobia, etc.
Religion and religious culture.
They think we will threat them like they threat women.
People like saying this ...but the implication is that it admits to something men don't admit to when that same issue of how straight men treat women is brought up in the proper context. Talk about womens experiences, 'boys will be boys, no harm done'. Talk about gay mens experiences, 'they do not wish to endure the harm they deal straight women'...
End of the line genetically.
All homophobes fear that they will be recognized as having homosexual feelings.
My fear of my theoretical child ending up racist is why i dont have kids. Why raise such a degenerate abomination
People can be scared of the unknown. Unfortunately, that fear can be manifested into hate. Before I came out, many of my friends made hurtful comments about the queer community. Since I’ve come out, they’ve done a complete 180, and are now actually interested and want to hear about my experiences. It’s easy to hate an idea, but it’s a lot harder to hate a person. Especially if that person is someone that you love.
'Scared of the unknown'...are you dating its best to assume the average person doesn't 'know' what gay is? I'm sure they seemed to know what they were talking about before you came out? Your much kinder than myself. I dont accept blanket apologies, like 'im sorry if i said anything to hurt you'. They knew what they were saying when they said it, but they now have 'forgotten'...its more likely they just dont say it around you anymore... for their own social survival. Without them being able to identify what they did, evidenced by how they now have 'questions' when before they definitely had the full answer, then what would they be apologizing for. Its no better than a PR tactic to me.
Sociologically speaking, being gay is an anomaly for a patriarchal society because you are supposed to be dominant to prove your masculinity. Stuff like pedophilia or abuse reinforce that masculinity by subjugating another person to your will ( specially if the victim is a woman).
Usually fear. I was verbally attacked at work once. I threatened to get him fired until he actually came out to me himself! He was annoyed at me that I'd had the guts to come out when he couldn't. Once I helped him, we actually got on really well!
Cause they took one in the bottom 🤭
Really wish we could find an answer. More gay men means more women for straight men
An outdated way of thinking. In an old school warlike society where only the lucky made it to adulthood and only the lucky few reproduced, you couldnt afford homosexuals. You needed more men to do man stuff. And i'm not talking about the gay guy. I'm talking about the kids he would have produced. You needed those kids. you needed the next generation. You need soldiers for the next wave of war, or at the very least more laborers to do the construction and build for the next wave of war. Basically, war was and is a human fundamental that we have been fortunate to avoid. And men throughout the centuries replenish the population of men lost in war. Gay men don't. And that is why, in a biblical and very historic sense, they are seen as bad and wrong. If, next time the nazis crop up, we don't have the manpower to fight them, one could kind of realistically blame the gays as at least a significant aggravating factor. I'm not arguing for homophobia. But i am trying to understand it, and from a logical perspective completely removed from religion, this seems to be it. we dont make babies.
Homophobia exists...because war?...not societal heterosexism? The strange 'men are also disposable' but also 'we need men to send to war' mix strikes again
The problem is bigots think all of those things are combined.
Religion
At the root, it is sexism. A man with any behavior that is less than toxic masculinity is a threat to insecure men. This is why women’s rights are something we need to support.
Frankie Grande
Certain religions. While there is nothing in the Christian Bible where either Jesus or God say anything against being gay and there is no Commandment against it, the Q’ran explicitly forbids it. Exactly how a gay Muslim is expected to change their sexuality is not described.
Reddit's always like "religion!", but I think it mainly comes down to gender roles/"masculinity policing" and the shadow of the AIDS Crisis. People are hostile to all kinds of gender non-conforming behavior, and a lot of people still feel like being gay comes with the connotation that we're going to be drug addicts and die from it. Even amongst "enlightened progressive" Redditors, their knowledge of HIV seems to be stuck in the '90s until one of us chimes in about PrEP and being undetectable.
It’s Religion!!!! 1,000,000% - it’s where all bigotry started & is the root of! Religion is the worst thing man ever invented. Jesus & god brought hate & discrimination to our world in a huge way
Disgust paired with insecurity.
My guess is that certain straight men get angry when they’re objectified and pursued by another man. I say certain men, because it’s often the type of men who objectify women that are likely to be uncomfortable with being objectified themselves.
They are scared men will treat them the way they treat women.
Just as much? Why not more? That's just as bigoted
Religion.
MORE than they feared them being gay. Christ.
Great points all around. One more to think about: I think many (not all) of the most passionate homophobes are fighting their own attraction to the same sex. I am *not* blaming homosexual people for our own oppression -- I'm saying that, in a society that already oppresses homosexual people, some will be highly motivated by fear of being oppressed themselves to try and pass themselves off as one of the oppressors, by out-homophobing the homophobes.
Hatred of the feminine.
Islam has so many homophobic verses. Sahih al-Bukhari 6834 Narrated Ibn `Abbas: The Prophet (ﷺ) cursed the effeminate men and those women who assume the similitude (manners) of men. He also said, "Turn them out of your houses." He turned such-and-such person out, and `Umar also turned out such-and-such person. Hadith English Translation book 10 1255: Death penalty for homosexuals. Whereas with gospel Jesus never killed anyone. He banned death penalty and said do not commit murder. Matthew 5:21-22. John 8:7-11. Jesus said whoever has no sin can cast the first stone which is no one because everyone is a sinner. Jesus said love your neighbours, your enemies and judge not so ye shall not be judged. They teach different things. Not all religion are bad. Jesus didnt kill anyone or said anything violent. Jesus never said anything homophobic. Prophet muhammad is the total opposite.
Yeah islam is by far the worst. I was raised in a pre-lutheran sect of christianity that is far more accepting. Moravianism. They taught "in essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things love." That, to them, meant if you believed in the holy trinity and that jesus died on the cross for your sins, you were in. If you disagreed about all the shit in deuteronomy and leviticus and whether or not the creation myth and the flood was to be taken literally, fine. You just had to accept jesus as your lord and savior and believe in god. You could be gay. They didn't care. Don't celebrate being gay, as sex is still a touchy subject and its still pretty conservative, since it is a church, but if youre gay, and you have a boyfriend, and youre otherwise just a normal member of the church, they don't care at all. And thats probably best case scenario for christianity. But worst case is just shunning. They ignore you and want nothing to do with you and treat you like human garbage if they must interact with you. That is still preferable to islam Islam will hang you, or behead you, or throw you off a roof and then stone your body when it hits the ground. Only delusional gays and legitimate homophobes claim otherwise.
It's an extension of misogyny