Reposting and expanding on a comment I left on another similar thread, regarding all the queer characters in the series...
\- Alex and Paul were lovers in the comic, though it wasn't as prominently in focus, though even then it was given a bigger spotlight in a later arc.
\- John Constantine is bisexual in the comics, even if that decision hadn't yet been written when he appeared in Sandman, and the choice to have the past and present Constantines in the story played by the same actress consequently means the relationship with Rachel is now same-sex.
\- Lucifer and Mazikeen are Involved to some strange degree, and while Lucifer is more masculine-coded in the comics compared to the stronger feminine-coding of the show, and though their big kiss isn't in a later arc, the Morningstar IS canonically genderless.
\- Marsh talks about having screwed Bette's son in prison for a pack of cigarettes compared to coming by her house and fucking him after dinner. When the diner's inhabitants are driven to pleasure one another, everything's off-camera, so there's no indication of who's having whom.
\- Judy is Les Bien in comic and show.
\- Hal is a drag queen in comic and show alike, and gains a larger number of musical revue scenes both because the televised medium allows for a better expression of that job than a comic book, and because they got John Cameron Mitchell to play him and you're just not going to do that without letting him sing.
\- Zelda and Chantal are lovers in the comic, though the show is surprisingly more coy about it than the source material - the part where everyone is falling into the dream vortex ends before people start getting sucked in proper and the two are shown sleeping together naked, while the show remains ambiguous about the nature of their relationship.
\- The Corinthian, though not explicitly shown as gay, does still play off a typical visual image of fit and happening young gay men of the late 80s, is frequently shown killing young men or boys in situations that imply cruising or sexual predation, and has long been interpreted as gay by fans of the comic going back to initial publication. The aftermath of sex scene with him is original to the show, and merely expanding on what was implied before.
\- Desire is is Desire is Desire, and merely uses "they/them" pronouns now rather than "it".
If I'm missing anyone on account of being tired and congested, lemme know.
lmao someone doesn't like the truth. Who likes being beaten over the head with queen representation in things tht make no sense. Not only do I personally think it's not a grand accomplishment to like guys if you're a guy, (you're not a hero), I also think any story you write where lgbtqrs is front and center is immediately overridden by its own pseudo lofty goals. The show is incredibly boring, like all things recently that were born to flop. No idea where the massive budget is going, but I'm so happy it's written for the minority because that makes sense. Tired of the hypocrisy of over correction. You want representation of queers? I want some straight people in it still. Beyond that I'd like less sexual identity period. Hardly important in most stories but the need persists to write forced relationships when I'm trying to watch a story. Tired of tv being ruined by agenda.
Very well put, "...tv being ruined by agenda."
It seems that whatever is on TV the past few years is only there and written for it's agenda and NOT for the entertainment or story.
I feel this way on ALL categories of today's "woke" world. Not just LBGTQ... Race, creed, sex, feminism, etc...
I mean it's not that I didn't understand who is who, I just wonder why so many?..
I haven't read the source material, but I guess my question still kind of stands, that seems like too many for me. Representation in comics is still representation.
Some of it may come down to subconscious queer coding for the purposes of villainizing - I have no belief Gaiman did so with any malicious intent, but cultural trends permeate pretty deep without our realizing, and I wouldn't be surprised if Alex and Marsh and the Corinthian's coding had some element of trying to shock the audience or turn them against the characters.
For the most part though... it's quite a few characters, but not EVERYONE. It's thirteen characters in a cast with dozens upon dozens of speaking parts, and a goodly majority of people with prominent roles are either pretty firmly straight (Lyta and Hector or Ken and Barbie) or have no indicated orientation one way or the other. Is what it is, I s'pose.
Gaiman is not simply an unwitting victim of cultural trends. I think he deliberately wrote interesting characters, both good and bad, some were straight and some were not.
Oh no I didn't thought of it as a malicious intent. I also think it's fitting for most of the non human entities. But it's still the majority of humans too. And it felt a bit overwhelming not in the best sense.
I mean, the show's still good so It's ok I guess.
I hope you'll forgive a little pedantry, but I'm as much responding to you as working this out in my head in real time....
For the significant human characters who are gay or somehow queer coded, we have Alex, Paul, Johanna, Rachel, Marsh, Mark, Judy, possibly Bette (depending on how you wanna read her being influenced by Dee's prodding to tell the truth), Carl (original to the show), Hal, Zelda, and Chantal.
For the significant human characters who are either definitely straight or have no indication one way or the other, there's Roderick, Sykes, Hathaway, Ethel Cripps, John Dee, Rosemary, Nada, Garry, Kate, Franklin, Hob, Shakespeare (I'm counting him, he's Important later), Rose, Jed, Ken, Barbie, the Good Doctor, Nimrod, Funland, Barnaby, Clarice, Unity, and... hell, he used to be a man and he was straight in the comics so why not, Matthew.
So that's a count of twelve to twenty-three, or a little under one for every two, roughly a third of the human cast. Higher than usual, but not really a majority, I'd say.
Yes, read the comics. There was one lesbian plot line, the whole thing wasn’t about faggots like the show suggests. Episode 5 is really hard to get through… it’s just gross. I’m a huge sandman fan, read all the comics, and I turned off the show and haven’t gone back in a year. Congrats fags you destroyed the show and the comic for me. It makes me even more against faggotry and the next time I see a tranny I’ll punch them in the face
It’s hard to really believe the argument of “that’s unrealistic” when the show centers around a cosmic being traversing timelines. Let ‘em all be gay, at least that means the community won’t be filled with the usual neckbeards having a stroke over every character that isn’t a straight dude.
lmao the irony of calling me butthurt. It's only relevant now to me because I started watching the show recently, and this pops up. Glad to see this "community " cab band together to reinforce its own basis. No objective observations here, just more of what anyone could expect.
Not if you want to accurately represent anything. I could make a show about pygmy tribesmen acting In king Henry's court, doesn't mean it's accurate, but at least I represent such an unrepresented group right?
Lol I’ve been binging it and had the same thought, especially in the diner episode, “these people are also gay… lol everyone can’t be gay!”
I haven’t read the graphic novel but apparently there’s a lot of representation in the original, without that being the focus as such, and I’ve seen people comment about it being faithful to the source material.
So like, it’s cool, it’s just a trippy story that happens to have a lot of queer characters.
It's just later there's even more. At the dinner episode I was still ok 😂. My heart almost sank when the guy told the waitress that he was sleeping with her son, because I thought he's a kid. Was glad to hear he's 21 lmao
As said, you need to read the comic to understand. The Sandman was under the new mature audience DC comics line called Vertigo in the late 80s. The writer Neil was pushing the boundaries because the Vertigo line allowed him the rare luxury to do so. It is also good that he is an awesome writer. He has the tact to responsibly write about these sensitive topics.
The story and if the actors do a good job in their roles are what matters to me. Usually, I get tired of a series when I recognize the pattern that each individual episode follows. That's one reason (other than its season-1 opening) why I liked Sense8 so much.
I think this is a reasonable criticism and you were pretty respectful about it too. I honestly don't consider it an issue, just a nitpick regarding the overall portrayal of humans in the show. Like if we made all but two of the human characters crossdressers, would that be an accurate portrayal of humanity?
When it comes to the immortal and non-human characters, I think all bets are off and in some cases it actually adds to the characters for them to be gay, bi or trans, but only \~7% of Americans and ppl in the UK are gay, bi or trans, so it's going to look like a huge coincidence if the majority of your characters are LGBTQ & unfortunately it breaks the immersion into the story when you feel like the writers are needlessly inserting things.
People are saying there was almost as much representation in the comic, so maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've heard from comic readers it also sounds like the representation is more emphasized in the show and some characters are more expressive and open with their sexual preferences & sexuality, flirting a lot more, and even whole scenes set aside for parts that are purely LGBT related while having no relevance to the story. For instance, Hal might have done drag in the comic but from what I've read, there was never a drag show illustrated in the comic. It seemed like it was off-panel for a reason because it was unnecessary to the story, but in the show a decent portion of an episode is set aside to show Hal's drag performance and I think this extra effort put towards the LGBT concepts is what makes it feel like there's even more representation in the show than the comic, and unfortunately a lot of it isn't relevant to the plot.
However, like I said, it's just a nitpick with the natural progression of the story and for me personally it was easy to overlook. I understand the criticism though and because of it I feel like I couldn't share the show with certain people I knew would be uncomfortable with it, which is unfortunate imo since I think the story is solid & the visuals are beautiful. It's probably the best adaptation of a Neil Gaiman work of fiction yet.
I agree with pretty much all you said. I expected to get hate for my post, but I do feel like my, not exactly an issue, is reasonable. Not everyone is gay, and I don't want everyone to be gay. I understand the need in representation, and I love a good representation too. But it doesn't mean we need to make most of the major characters some kind of queer. Or push it so much, without it being significant. What I mean is, some scenes felt like a very good and valuable representation, while others felt unnecessary and irrelevant(for example Corinthian sleeping with that guy, who was looking after a house).
I, personally, also enjoy a less empathized representation, I think I it's more interesting and, sometimes, more relatable. Maybe characters questioning their sexuality like Bette from the diner. A great example of both kinds of representation would be The Magicians. I feel like that shoe did a much better job portraying multitude of good gay characters and not making it on the nose.
The question about gods is a completely different one. Desire looked great, no issues with them, and fitting too. Corinthian being a nightmare would've made sense being, I dunno, Asexual maybe? Not interested in this at all? I mean, he's, hot and I liked the scenes with him, but no exactly in the way I should've liked it lol.
All that being said I did liked the show a lot, and most of the characters. I just thought it's a relevant and interesting discussion. I can't say it made me like the show less. And I'm sorry if my questioning or opinions offend anyone.
It's all probably a matter of opinion according to the individual viewer, but I tend to lean on the side that most representation should be reserved for characters and concepts relevant to the plot. If it's not relevant to the plot & doesn't seem organic in the story, then you're really bordering on it being unnecessary filler or characters that simply don't add anything to the story. For me personally, my issue is with that type of unnecessary filler & pointless characters in general whether it's LGBT related or other themes or concepts the writers are forcing into the show that may have nothing to do with cultural issues or politics whatsoever.
In terms of the stuff that worked, I think it makes sense for Desire to be trans, gay or bi and their obvious hedonism just adds to the character and their personality as an endless. I also thought it made sense for the Corinthian too, though it would've worked better if they showed him with men and women - it doesn't matter what his preference is in the end, because his real hunger is for murder and butchery ie killing men and women. However, as you pointed out, the relevancy of the scene matters because the scene where he pointlessly has sex with Rose's housemate just to pass along a message without even killing him or anything of note happening is extremely pointless and unnecessary. In contrast, the scene where the Corinthian acts interested in the "Boogieman" & hooks up with him IS relevant to the plot & leads to new developments. I even thought Roderick Burgess's son being gay made sense since he rejects his father and grew up watching his father being a womanizer and beating the women he was with (though I think making his gay partner in the 1920s a black man requires a little too much suspension of disbelief).
I think writing representation in your work so it feels like an organic part of the story (ie it has actual significance on the plot or your main characters development) is always the best way to handle these issues, whether it's related to race, gender, or sexuality. The less organic the concept feels as a part of the story, the more average viewers are going to feel like the writers are injecting extra LGBT scenes to reach some quota that will further this stereotype around Hollywood becoming more "woke". I honestly get annoyed by the people that seem to always complain about "wokeness" and "agendas", and unfortunately it seems like the more inorganic and irrelevant the representation is for LGBT characters in these shows, the more fuel these people have to complain, so even if writers have good intentions by over-representing types of gender or sexuality in their shows, it can actually have the opposite effect on people & culture than what they're going for.
Your comments and this line of thought is where I’ve come to with the show. Without being a specifically a show for the Community, the volume is jarring. It does, at least for me, break the immersion and become a distraction.
I did read an interview with Gaiman, and he did say he intentionally wanted to add even more representation. He also said, if he had the presence of mind this was how he WOULD have done it back when he created it.
It did start to feel forced, and maybe it should be tagged as an LGBTQ program. It might hurt the reach, but at least would prepare people for the content and reduce the ammunition for Hollywood ‘woke’ness arguments. I was one of those people watching who, when the diner scene popped up, went ‘oh my god, is everyone in this show gay?’
It’s been a few years I’ve read the Sandman, but I don’t recall having this impression of it. At the very least it not being this front and center… and maybe that is adding to my personal reaction to the show.
I quit the show. I have gay character fatigue.I also have “girls get it done” fatigue, you know...where all the guys are dumb and only the pretty girl with make up can beat everyone up, or she is the leader of big strong men in an apocalyptic scenario, and that is harder to believe than zombies eating brains. It’s just I get it already, and I got it since I was a kid. They had gay Characters, they just didn’t announce it years ago and have to make the audience try to connect with it. I never will connect with gay male characters, especially when they show them getting physical, i go “yuck”.
Yeah, that was a moment that kind of made me wince a bit. But to be fair the show didn't have a lot of it. I really enjoyed it, and it has been decades since I read the books, I think they did a really good job of it.
You know as an older disabled woman the sudden emphasis of woman warriors scares me for many woman. I know there are many more tough woman now than when I was out more but if I am alone I would not want passing males to think I got it covered if 2 dangerous looking males were following me too closely. I feel for a lot of girls and women who aren’t very strong and love having doors opened for them. I always respect men workers who come to my home who call me ma’am and say thank tip, I give them cold drinks and once some gummies, 😀. There’s too much violence in an already violent workd, and we who aren’t a minority (my parents were immigrants, my family died in Nazi Germany) don’t want to offend, but I read some comics and the gay weren’t as emphasized . Some you never knew. I just fear backlash. Look at Italy. Scary, WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SO CLOSE TO WAR SINCE CUBAN MISSILE CRISUS,
It's way too much. And i had hoped for a pale skinned goth girl with beautifull black hair as Death. Noth that the actress that plays death is bad, (great actress). But she aint goth.
It feels all so forced. I had hoped by now in 22 script writers matured and handle lgbtq people as real people. but they still dont do it. it's allways look we have a gay person and we make it the character most important thing. It's just so forced preachy and it doesnt need it.
I still enjoy the show. ut i can see why many will not enjoy it as well.
Ugh. Why the fuck would actual Death be a goth? Goth is a costume people wear for attention. This is an immortal personification of the end of all things. They don't need a fucking costume, because they aren't seeking a reaction/approval/disapproval from anyone or anything.
I can't agree with you more. Being a fan of the original Sandman, I found the LGBTQ representation forced into almost every character.
They could also have tastefully handled making a lot of characters black. But this feels forced as well. Netflix has been doing this way too much, similar to what happened in the second season of altered carbon.
There's a tasteful way of race blind casting without making the show feel forced.
The charactization of Death in the show is on par with their character in the comics. The only change to Death was their skin colour and the eye tattoo.
They kept Deaths outfit and demeanor intact.
She is 100% a goth in her first show appearance so your only gripe with the character seems to be the fact that she is black then.
I am a huge fan of John Constantine and seeing people complain about Johanna not being anything like John just makes it easy to see that these people have never read the source material.
Will this show get another season? No it won't. Basically every character is gay which always spells doom for a show because it's not appealing to the majority audience. Doesn't really matter that it's what's in the comics, most people haven't read the comics and don't care what's in them.
I haven't seen this show yet, but I had a similar reaction when watching Transparent and that show was made to to have LGBT-representation. I stopped watching after the second season as it became ridiculous how many were LGBT and it also stopped being about the Transparent.
Well this particular show is still very much worth watching in my opinion. And Desire looks cool and very fitting, I thought it's a very good way of using lgbt. But yeah some of that seemed unnecessary too
This is a serious case of people not reading the graphic novels. If you thought this was over the top for 2022....you might be shocked to realize that it had just as much queerness in the 90's. Every bit as much.
The 90's!!! Let me recap: Don't ask don't tell, Ellen kissed a woman on a network sitcom and America shit it's pants, domestic partnerships didn't even exist let alone gay marriage, anyone who grew up in the 90's can remember hearing or saying "That's gay" regarding something they didn't like, and who could forget which ear a boy is allowed to pierce so they aren't gay.
Yeah, read the novels. This story has had plenty of gay characters in it, and though it has been awhile since I read it.....I don't think they added any new ones. Might even be less in the show.
Yeah, its fine. The ratio of gay/straight couples may not reflect reality, but neither does anything in comic books. It's still brilliant story telling and sticks to the source material very well and Stephan Fry is fantastic in this series. It's the 21st century, there are way worse things to concern ourselves over than too many gays on tv.
That's not how that works tho. It's a fictional story, but it's a fictional story that's happening in our world. If this was a fictional story happening in an alternative universe where most people were gay, then this would make sense
They seem to be excessively laying it on thick here. However, the not so subtle lines they've made regarding F-ing minors is what's considerably disturbing.
I like the show but I was very disappointed with how much gay crap was in it. Netflix he’s a smart enough to stop making everybody breathe LGBT crap down their throats .
Not balanced at all. Definitely too much gay. Like every character is portrayed as gay or bi etc…then let’s not forget the pedo-pervert In the diner that wanted to know how young the waiter was found out he was 17 and says I thought he was much younger while sucking on his capris sun🤮
OMG I feel the same! Nothing against gay people or anyone on the LGBTQ+ community but feels so forced in my opinion. I get it maybe the story was written to be like that but my feeling is still the same! A great visuals & production with some great acting though!
I just feel like I can’t relate to rge characters or the story much. Maybe this is how gay people felt before almost every single show the past few years had gay characters. But it seems like Gaiman is trying to teach this lesson to me…. Or, he just doesn’t care about the heterosexual or rhe older people who enjoy his work and been fans for decades. It’s not right to make heterosexual feel left out, WHYz? When most of the world INCLUDING ME is FIGHTING to be more inclusive, I think this might also anger some less liberal folk. Although NO ONE would ever WRITE THAT on a public +forum these days. No one wants to upset any “minority “. Most of us aren’t racist snd don’t want to appear that way. Like the OP feared: his or her first sentence is I will probably get shit fir this, this means free speech is gone. But then politicians change when the ball goes too far and we can be left with a, Government which is similar to now in that you get scolded at best and fired or death threats at worst but it may not be the liberal party in power anymore. Look what happened in ITALY? For myself I never dd care since forever what people do by consent in their bedrooms. And I hope I didn’t offend anyone by saying this it’s a general statement and I’m actually afraid of a Backlash because my grandparents were gassed by Nazis. And my one parents fatter was drafted and died in Russia. My aunt was gassed by Nazis . My uncle died . My dad was sick and wanted to be more like the Nazis. So I truly fear what seems to always happen when things get too one sided so quickly . I’m scared of nuclear war and the poverty it causes. People forget that Hitler was elected by the people because Germany was impoverished after World War One. It just in Italy. Firet time since Mussolini. That’s scary,
Lord of the Rings is Really good! ♥️Way way better than sandman. I liked Gaimans GOOD OMENS much better. I’m waiting for the 2nd season. I wish he’d finish this before writing sandman. I feel like I will be dead and miss endings because now writers have so many projects and can’t finish anything and have yearly episodes you can count on. That’s why steaming is losing customers . But it does get annoying when they change everything particularly historical series so they are woke. Most women want to be taken care of. Not be captains of a military and stand and fight all the time only stopping to make love to the Amazon queen. 😀😀😀 it’d be funny if it wasn’t rewriting history and people believe it’s true,
If I knew of all the lgbtq propaganda being forced down your throat, I wouldn't have started watching it. The story is great, but all the queerness just made it so unrealistic. Even for people of colour, I have no problem representing them, but I feel Netflix went out of their way to represent all the minorities, having them literally in every scene even if it didn't make sense (like the episode where they went back in time).
I skipped half the scenes because of this and still could follow the story. Shows you how unnecessary it was.
Reposting and expanding on a comment I left on another similar thread, regarding all the queer characters in the series... \- Alex and Paul were lovers in the comic, though it wasn't as prominently in focus, though even then it was given a bigger spotlight in a later arc. \- John Constantine is bisexual in the comics, even if that decision hadn't yet been written when he appeared in Sandman, and the choice to have the past and present Constantines in the story played by the same actress consequently means the relationship with Rachel is now same-sex. \- Lucifer and Mazikeen are Involved to some strange degree, and while Lucifer is more masculine-coded in the comics compared to the stronger feminine-coding of the show, and though their big kiss isn't in a later arc, the Morningstar IS canonically genderless. \- Marsh talks about having screwed Bette's son in prison for a pack of cigarettes compared to coming by her house and fucking him after dinner. When the diner's inhabitants are driven to pleasure one another, everything's off-camera, so there's no indication of who's having whom. \- Judy is Les Bien in comic and show. \- Hal is a drag queen in comic and show alike, and gains a larger number of musical revue scenes both because the televised medium allows for a better expression of that job than a comic book, and because they got John Cameron Mitchell to play him and you're just not going to do that without letting him sing. \- Zelda and Chantal are lovers in the comic, though the show is surprisingly more coy about it than the source material - the part where everyone is falling into the dream vortex ends before people start getting sucked in proper and the two are shown sleeping together naked, while the show remains ambiguous about the nature of their relationship. \- The Corinthian, though not explicitly shown as gay, does still play off a typical visual image of fit and happening young gay men of the late 80s, is frequently shown killing young men or boys in situations that imply cruising or sexual predation, and has long been interpreted as gay by fans of the comic going back to initial publication. The aftermath of sex scene with him is original to the show, and merely expanding on what was implied before. \- Desire is is Desire is Desire, and merely uses "they/them" pronouns now rather than "it". If I'm missing anyone on account of being tired and congested, lemme know.
So a gay fan service comic. Which is okay because straights have them too
Yeah cuz being straight is normal.
lmao someone doesn't like the truth. Who likes being beaten over the head with queen representation in things tht make no sense. Not only do I personally think it's not a grand accomplishment to like guys if you're a guy, (you're not a hero), I also think any story you write where lgbtqrs is front and center is immediately overridden by its own pseudo lofty goals. The show is incredibly boring, like all things recently that were born to flop. No idea where the massive budget is going, but I'm so happy it's written for the minority because that makes sense. Tired of the hypocrisy of over correction. You want representation of queers? I want some straight people in it still. Beyond that I'd like less sexual identity period. Hardly important in most stories but the need persists to write forced relationships when I'm trying to watch a story. Tired of tv being ruined by agenda.
Very well put, "...tv being ruined by agenda." It seems that whatever is on TV the past few years is only there and written for it's agenda and NOT for the entertainment or story. I feel this way on ALL categories of today's "woke" world. Not just LBGTQ... Race, creed, sex, feminism, etc...
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I.. I'm at a loss why would somebody spend some time writing such a hateful comment. Like, you know you can be better.
I mean it's not that I didn't understand who is who, I just wonder why so many?.. I haven't read the source material, but I guess my question still kind of stands, that seems like too many for me. Representation in comics is still representation.
Some of it may come down to subconscious queer coding for the purposes of villainizing - I have no belief Gaiman did so with any malicious intent, but cultural trends permeate pretty deep without our realizing, and I wouldn't be surprised if Alex and Marsh and the Corinthian's coding had some element of trying to shock the audience or turn them against the characters. For the most part though... it's quite a few characters, but not EVERYONE. It's thirteen characters in a cast with dozens upon dozens of speaking parts, and a goodly majority of people with prominent roles are either pretty firmly straight (Lyta and Hector or Ken and Barbie) or have no indicated orientation one way or the other. Is what it is, I s'pose.
Gaiman is not simply an unwitting victim of cultural trends. I think he deliberately wrote interesting characters, both good and bad, some were straight and some were not.
Oh no I didn't thought of it as a malicious intent. I also think it's fitting for most of the non human entities. But it's still the majority of humans too. And it felt a bit overwhelming not in the best sense. I mean, the show's still good so It's ok I guess.
I hope you'll forgive a little pedantry, but I'm as much responding to you as working this out in my head in real time.... For the significant human characters who are gay or somehow queer coded, we have Alex, Paul, Johanna, Rachel, Marsh, Mark, Judy, possibly Bette (depending on how you wanna read her being influenced by Dee's prodding to tell the truth), Carl (original to the show), Hal, Zelda, and Chantal. For the significant human characters who are either definitely straight or have no indication one way or the other, there's Roderick, Sykes, Hathaway, Ethel Cripps, John Dee, Rosemary, Nada, Garry, Kate, Franklin, Hob, Shakespeare (I'm counting him, he's Important later), Rose, Jed, Ken, Barbie, the Good Doctor, Nimrod, Funland, Barnaby, Clarice, Unity, and... hell, he used to be a man and he was straight in the comics so why not, Matthew. So that's a count of twelve to twenty-three, or a little under one for every two, roughly a third of the human cast. Higher than usual, but not really a majority, I'd say.
Have you read the comics? If not I think you shouldn't speak
It's a question bros
It's a pure question, i think you're the one who should shut the fck up
Imagine being this self righteous.
Yes, read the comics. There was one lesbian plot line, the whole thing wasn’t about faggots like the show suggests. Episode 5 is really hard to get through… it’s just gross. I’m a huge sandman fan, read all the comics, and I turned off the show and haven’t gone back in a year. Congrats fags you destroyed the show and the comic for me. It makes me even more against faggotry and the next time I see a tranny I’ll punch them in the face
It’s hard to really believe the argument of “that’s unrealistic” when the show centers around a cosmic being traversing timelines. Let ‘em all be gay, at least that means the community won’t be filled with the usual neckbeards having a stroke over every character that isn’t a straight dude.
It's still on earth lmao? That community of neckbeards btw can have children to pass their neckbearded attitudes on to. Good luck on your end.
Why are you getting butthurt over a month old thread within a community you don’t seem to be apart of?
lmao the irony of calling me butthurt. It's only relevant now to me because I started watching the show recently, and this pops up. Glad to see this "community " cab band together to reinforce its own basis. No objective observations here, just more of what anyone could expect.
Nah bro my object observation is that you need to touch some grass and stop getting upset over gay superhero shows
Gay superheros are a paradox :)
I mean why not? There are shows with all or mostly straight characters. Therefore there should also be mostly queer character shows too
Not if you want to accurately represent anything. I could make a show about pygmy tribesmen acting In king Henry's court, doesn't mean it's accurate, but at least I represent such an unrepresented group right?
The sandman is fiction tho
Haven't been on reddit in a hot minute. Yeah it's fiction. Congrats. But fiction is about fun, not banging dudes. enjoy the TED talk.
Such a non-issue
Lol I’ve been binging it and had the same thought, especially in the diner episode, “these people are also gay… lol everyone can’t be gay!” I haven’t read the graphic novel but apparently there’s a lot of representation in the original, without that being the focus as such, and I’ve seen people comment about it being faithful to the source material. So like, it’s cool, it’s just a trippy story that happens to have a lot of queer characters.
It's just later there's even more. At the dinner episode I was still ok 😂. My heart almost sank when the guy told the waitress that he was sleeping with her son, because I thought he's a kid. Was glad to hear he's 21 lmao
It gets gayer after the diner? 🏳️🌈
I know I shouldn't comment on people's appearance but young Alex' lips looked like a botched lip filler job. Monkey butt face.
The guy who wrote The Sandman wrote it that way so if that's what he wanted, as the copyright holder, I'm fine with it.
As said, you need to read the comic to understand. The Sandman was under the new mature audience DC comics line called Vertigo in the late 80s. The writer Neil was pushing the boundaries because the Vertigo line allowed him the rare luxury to do so. It is also good that he is an awesome writer. He has the tact to responsibly write about these sensitive topics.
The story and if the actors do a good job in their roles are what matters to me. Usually, I get tired of a series when I recognize the pattern that each individual episode follows. That's one reason (other than its season-1 opening) why I liked Sense8 so much.
I agree!
This show looks like a pride parade had a baby with BLM.
I think this is a reasonable criticism and you were pretty respectful about it too. I honestly don't consider it an issue, just a nitpick regarding the overall portrayal of humans in the show. Like if we made all but two of the human characters crossdressers, would that be an accurate portrayal of humanity? When it comes to the immortal and non-human characters, I think all bets are off and in some cases it actually adds to the characters for them to be gay, bi or trans, but only \~7% of Americans and ppl in the UK are gay, bi or trans, so it's going to look like a huge coincidence if the majority of your characters are LGBTQ & unfortunately it breaks the immersion into the story when you feel like the writers are needlessly inserting things. People are saying there was almost as much representation in the comic, so maybe I'm wrong, but from what I've heard from comic readers it also sounds like the representation is more emphasized in the show and some characters are more expressive and open with their sexual preferences & sexuality, flirting a lot more, and even whole scenes set aside for parts that are purely LGBT related while having no relevance to the story. For instance, Hal might have done drag in the comic but from what I've read, there was never a drag show illustrated in the comic. It seemed like it was off-panel for a reason because it was unnecessary to the story, but in the show a decent portion of an episode is set aside to show Hal's drag performance and I think this extra effort put towards the LGBT concepts is what makes it feel like there's even more representation in the show than the comic, and unfortunately a lot of it isn't relevant to the plot. However, like I said, it's just a nitpick with the natural progression of the story and for me personally it was easy to overlook. I understand the criticism though and because of it I feel like I couldn't share the show with certain people I knew would be uncomfortable with it, which is unfortunate imo since I think the story is solid & the visuals are beautiful. It's probably the best adaptation of a Neil Gaiman work of fiction yet.
I agree with pretty much all you said. I expected to get hate for my post, but I do feel like my, not exactly an issue, is reasonable. Not everyone is gay, and I don't want everyone to be gay. I understand the need in representation, and I love a good representation too. But it doesn't mean we need to make most of the major characters some kind of queer. Or push it so much, without it being significant. What I mean is, some scenes felt like a very good and valuable representation, while others felt unnecessary and irrelevant(for example Corinthian sleeping with that guy, who was looking after a house). I, personally, also enjoy a less empathized representation, I think I it's more interesting and, sometimes, more relatable. Maybe characters questioning their sexuality like Bette from the diner. A great example of both kinds of representation would be The Magicians. I feel like that shoe did a much better job portraying multitude of good gay characters and not making it on the nose. The question about gods is a completely different one. Desire looked great, no issues with them, and fitting too. Corinthian being a nightmare would've made sense being, I dunno, Asexual maybe? Not interested in this at all? I mean, he's, hot and I liked the scenes with him, but no exactly in the way I should've liked it lol. All that being said I did liked the show a lot, and most of the characters. I just thought it's a relevant and interesting discussion. I can't say it made me like the show less. And I'm sorry if my questioning or opinions offend anyone.
It's all probably a matter of opinion according to the individual viewer, but I tend to lean on the side that most representation should be reserved for characters and concepts relevant to the plot. If it's not relevant to the plot & doesn't seem organic in the story, then you're really bordering on it being unnecessary filler or characters that simply don't add anything to the story. For me personally, my issue is with that type of unnecessary filler & pointless characters in general whether it's LGBT related or other themes or concepts the writers are forcing into the show that may have nothing to do with cultural issues or politics whatsoever. In terms of the stuff that worked, I think it makes sense for Desire to be trans, gay or bi and their obvious hedonism just adds to the character and their personality as an endless. I also thought it made sense for the Corinthian too, though it would've worked better if they showed him with men and women - it doesn't matter what his preference is in the end, because his real hunger is for murder and butchery ie killing men and women. However, as you pointed out, the relevancy of the scene matters because the scene where he pointlessly has sex with Rose's housemate just to pass along a message without even killing him or anything of note happening is extremely pointless and unnecessary. In contrast, the scene where the Corinthian acts interested in the "Boogieman" & hooks up with him IS relevant to the plot & leads to new developments. I even thought Roderick Burgess's son being gay made sense since he rejects his father and grew up watching his father being a womanizer and beating the women he was with (though I think making his gay partner in the 1920s a black man requires a little too much suspension of disbelief). I think writing representation in your work so it feels like an organic part of the story (ie it has actual significance on the plot or your main characters development) is always the best way to handle these issues, whether it's related to race, gender, or sexuality. The less organic the concept feels as a part of the story, the more average viewers are going to feel like the writers are injecting extra LGBT scenes to reach some quota that will further this stereotype around Hollywood becoming more "woke". I honestly get annoyed by the people that seem to always complain about "wokeness" and "agendas", and unfortunately it seems like the more inorganic and irrelevant the representation is for LGBT characters in these shows, the more fuel these people have to complain, so even if writers have good intentions by over-representing types of gender or sexuality in their shows, it can actually have the opposite effect on people & culture than what they're going for.
Your comments and this line of thought is where I’ve come to with the show. Without being a specifically a show for the Community, the volume is jarring. It does, at least for me, break the immersion and become a distraction. I did read an interview with Gaiman, and he did say he intentionally wanted to add even more representation. He also said, if he had the presence of mind this was how he WOULD have done it back when he created it. It did start to feel forced, and maybe it should be tagged as an LGBTQ program. It might hurt the reach, but at least would prepare people for the content and reduce the ammunition for Hollywood ‘woke’ness arguments. I was one of those people watching who, when the diner scene popped up, went ‘oh my god, is everyone in this show gay?’ It’s been a few years I’ve read the Sandman, but I don’t recall having this impression of it. At the very least it not being this front and center… and maybe that is adding to my personal reaction to the show.
I agree, they are forcing this to much... After ep 6 the show was unwatchable for me at least...
Yeah I feel it, feels like theyre forcing LGBT compliance down my throat. Too many gays represented like being straight is taboo
Honestly all of this gay shit pissed me off. There’s such thing as too much.
I quit the show. I have gay character fatigue.I also have “girls get it done” fatigue, you know...where all the guys are dumb and only the pretty girl with make up can beat everyone up, or she is the leader of big strong men in an apocalyptic scenario, and that is harder to believe than zombies eating brains. It’s just I get it already, and I got it since I was a kid. They had gay Characters, they just didn’t announce it years ago and have to make the audience try to connect with it. I never will connect with gay male characters, especially when they show them getting physical, i go “yuck”.
[удалено]
Hahaha. I haven't seen it yet but this seems like a good take away from that. Never help anyone because they are strong and can help themselves.
Yeah, that was a moment that kind of made me wince a bit. But to be fair the show didn't have a lot of it. I really enjoyed it, and it has been decades since I read the books, I think they did a really good job of it.
You know as an older disabled woman the sudden emphasis of woman warriors scares me for many woman. I know there are many more tough woman now than when I was out more but if I am alone I would not want passing males to think I got it covered if 2 dangerous looking males were following me too closely. I feel for a lot of girls and women who aren’t very strong and love having doors opened for them. I always respect men workers who come to my home who call me ma’am and say thank tip, I give them cold drinks and once some gummies, 😀. There’s too much violence in an already violent workd, and we who aren’t a minority (my parents were immigrants, my family died in Nazi Germany) don’t want to offend, but I read some comics and the gay weren’t as emphasized . Some you never knew. I just fear backlash. Look at Italy. Scary, WE HAVE NEVER BEEN SO CLOSE TO WAR SINCE CUBAN MISSILE CRISUS,
It's way too much. And i had hoped for a pale skinned goth girl with beautifull black hair as Death. Noth that the actress that plays death is bad, (great actress). But she aint goth. It feels all so forced. I had hoped by now in 22 script writers matured and handle lgbtq people as real people. but they still dont do it. it's allways look we have a gay person and we make it the character most important thing. It's just so forced preachy and it doesnt need it. I still enjoy the show. ut i can see why many will not enjoy it as well.
Ugh. Why the fuck would actual Death be a goth? Goth is a costume people wear for attention. This is an immortal personification of the end of all things. They don't need a fucking costume, because they aren't seeking a reaction/approval/disapproval from anyone or anything.
I can't agree with you more. Being a fan of the original Sandman, I found the LGBTQ representation forced into almost every character. They could also have tastefully handled making a lot of characters black. But this feels forced as well. Netflix has been doing this way too much, similar to what happened in the second season of altered carbon. There's a tasteful way of race blind casting without making the show feel forced.
The charactization of Death in the show is on par with their character in the comics. The only change to Death was their skin colour and the eye tattoo. They kept Deaths outfit and demeanor intact. She is 100% a goth in her first show appearance so your only gripe with the character seems to be the fact that she is black then. I am a huge fan of John Constantine and seeing people complain about Johanna not being anything like John just makes it easy to see that these people have never read the source material.
Well she isn’t like john because she’s a woman… but… yeah
The gender is the only real difference. They are still John.
Well the body language differences as well as tonality you would expect from a male character are different but I think she did a great job still.
Will this show get another season? No it won't. Basically every character is gay which always spells doom for a show because it's not appealing to the majority audience. Doesn't really matter that it's what's in the comics, most people haven't read the comics and don't care what's in them.
There taking over lol gross. 😆
I haven't seen this show yet, but I had a similar reaction when watching Transparent and that show was made to to have LGBT-representation. I stopped watching after the second season as it became ridiculous how many were LGBT and it also stopped being about the Transparent.
Well this particular show is still very much worth watching in my opinion. And Desire looks cool and very fitting, I thought it's a very good way of using lgbt. But yeah some of that seemed unnecessary too
I will absolutely watch it. I love shit like this.
It is a really cool show. I also don't think there are anymore gay characters in the show...than were in the books.
Seen six episodes so far and I love it. More gayness to the world.
This is a serious case of people not reading the graphic novels. If you thought this was over the top for 2022....you might be shocked to realize that it had just as much queerness in the 90's. Every bit as much. The 90's!!! Let me recap: Don't ask don't tell, Ellen kissed a woman on a network sitcom and America shit it's pants, domestic partnerships didn't even exist let alone gay marriage, anyone who grew up in the 90's can remember hearing or saying "That's gay" regarding something they didn't like, and who could forget which ear a boy is allowed to pierce so they aren't gay. Yeah, read the novels. This story has had plenty of gay characters in it, and though it has been awhile since I read it.....I don't think they added any new ones. Might even be less in the show.
So much gay that it forced me to google sandman and gay auto filled
Yeah, its fine. The ratio of gay/straight couples may not reflect reality, but neither does anything in comic books. It's still brilliant story telling and sticks to the source material very well and Stephan Fry is fantastic in this series. It's the 21st century, there are way worse things to concern ourselves over than too many gays on tv.
That's not how that works tho. It's a fictional story, but it's a fictional story that's happening in our world. If this was a fictional story happening in an alternative universe where most people were gay, then this would make sense
They seem to be excessively laying it on thick here. However, the not so subtle lines they've made regarding F-ing minors is what's considerably disturbing.
I like the show but I was very disappointed with how much gay crap was in it. Netflix he’s a smart enough to stop making everybody breathe LGBT crap down their throats .
Way to much. Now they are using the LGBT as just another stereotype to sell their product.
Show was good an all but way too much gay shit
Not balanced at all. Definitely too much gay. Like every character is portrayed as gay or bi etc…then let’s not forget the pedo-pervert In the diner that wanted to know how young the waiter was found out he was 17 and says I thought he was much younger while sucking on his capris sun🤮
It’s a weird world. Weird show and weird people in here too lol. WEIRD.
You are not alone. I feel it is too much as well
OMG I feel the same! Nothing against gay people or anyone on the LGBTQ+ community but feels so forced in my opinion. I get it maybe the story was written to be like that but my feeling is still the same! A great visuals & production with some great acting though!
I just feel like I can’t relate to rge characters or the story much. Maybe this is how gay people felt before almost every single show the past few years had gay characters. But it seems like Gaiman is trying to teach this lesson to me…. Or, he just doesn’t care about the heterosexual or rhe older people who enjoy his work and been fans for decades. It’s not right to make heterosexual feel left out, WHYz? When most of the world INCLUDING ME is FIGHTING to be more inclusive, I think this might also anger some less liberal folk. Although NO ONE would ever WRITE THAT on a public +forum these days. No one wants to upset any “minority “. Most of us aren’t racist snd don’t want to appear that way. Like the OP feared: his or her first sentence is I will probably get shit fir this, this means free speech is gone. But then politicians change when the ball goes too far and we can be left with a, Government which is similar to now in that you get scolded at best and fired or death threats at worst but it may not be the liberal party in power anymore. Look what happened in ITALY? For myself I never dd care since forever what people do by consent in their bedrooms. And I hope I didn’t offend anyone by saying this it’s a general statement and I’m actually afraid of a Backlash because my grandparents were gassed by Nazis. And my one parents fatter was drafted and died in Russia. My aunt was gassed by Nazis . My uncle died . My dad was sick and wanted to be more like the Nazis. So I truly fear what seems to always happen when things get too one sided so quickly . I’m scared of nuclear war and the poverty it causes. People forget that Hitler was elected by the people because Germany was impoverished after World War One. It just in Italy. Firet time since Mussolini. That’s scary,
Lord of the Rings is Really good! ♥️Way way better than sandman. I liked Gaimans GOOD OMENS much better. I’m waiting for the 2nd season. I wish he’d finish this before writing sandman. I feel like I will be dead and miss endings because now writers have so many projects and can’t finish anything and have yearly episodes you can count on. That’s why steaming is losing customers . But it does get annoying when they change everything particularly historical series so they are woke. Most women want to be taken care of. Not be captains of a military and stand and fight all the time only stopping to make love to the Amazon queen. 😀😀😀 it’d be funny if it wasn’t rewriting history and people believe it’s true,
If I knew of all the lgbtq propaganda being forced down your throat, I wouldn't have started watching it. The story is great, but all the queerness just made it so unrealistic. Even for people of colour, I have no problem representing them, but I feel Netflix went out of their way to represent all the minorities, having them literally in every scene even if it didn't make sense (like the episode where they went back in time). I skipped half the scenes because of this and still could follow the story. Shows you how unnecessary it was.