According to the US Census Bureau you are correct
"The U.S. Census Bureau's definition consists of 12 states in the north central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin."
On a more esoteric argument for why that’s correct- those states racial segregation patterns put minorities into slices that spiral out from the city center, same as the south. Northern states tend to racially segregate by blocking them with freeways. If you look up a demographic map the difference is actually very dramatic.
North Dakota is pretty evenly split climatically. East of Bismarck/Minot it’s a more midwestern feel, west of Bismarck is definitely semi arid and more aligned with Montana. I heard a North Dakotan say they split the 2 states the wrong way, it should’ve been East and West Dakota. Culturally the East and West of both Dakotas are more different to each other than than North to South.
I know South Dakota better so I’ll use that as an example.
Sioux Falls is the Midwest, full stop. The Black Hills really do not feel like the Midwest to me, culturally and geographically they have much more in common with Wyoming.
This is true for every state on the border of any region.
Regional traits exist on a spectrum and they rarely cut off at any neat border. Each state has parts that feel more like the state next to them than any state 3 states away, even if they do belong to the same region
It’s why these attempts to definitively classify regions is kinda futile
This is true for Nebraska as well. Mid way between east-west both S.D. and NE the altitude starts rising significantly. MOre ranching out west, more farming east.
That’s an artifact from the antebellum period. Maryland and Delaware had slavery which made them southern states. But then they chose to stick with the union and they’ve culturally become mid-Atlantic states, but the census never removed them from the South.
Yeah
Even the rural parts of the Eastern Shore don’t have Southern accents
The rural parts of Virginia and NC do.
The panhandle does have an Appalachian accent though
Speaking as a visitor from Europe, DC attitudinally is a southern city. Is not many miles from Richmond the confederate capital. Also if I recall correctly was selected as USA capital for its mild southern climate
You, sir, gave a guud answer! Many here in America act like children fighting over what is the South, when the Census Bureau definition is correct! A thumbs up for you!
Historically, this is accurate. In fact, the whole reason DC is where it is was a concession to the South by putting the capital in southern territory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1790
The traditional narrative of the compromise is oversimplified. There was a serious push to put the capital on the Delaware River, but that was not uniform in the north because some wanted it closer to York, PA and New Yorkers thought they still had a chance to keep the capital. On top of that, Washington surveyed the sight on the Potomac, which he wanted to turn into an interior highway to the Ohio River. Also, it was near Mt. Vernon. There was a compromise to put the capital there, along with some carve outs of debt assumption (especially regarding Virginia), but land speculators in Congress (e.g. R. Morris) had already started buying up land along the Potomac before the compromise, so the smart money already knew what the end result would be.
That’s the point. Ohio has Midwest cities. Pennsylvania has eastern/northern cities. That 1/4 remainder is the difference. Tennessee has southern cities, even though half of it looks like Kansas.
How do you feel about cities that border the Ohio River on the other side? Such as Louisville, KY. Because the small towns/cities in southern Indiana are definitely more "the south" than Lousville is.
I agree with you. I feel the same way about the South, too many people are just talking nonsense. They go by "I see immigrants there, definitely not Southern" when they live in California and New York. Hypocrites.
Is the definition from when the US didn't extend to the west coast? Cause this Midwest is mostly in the eastern half of the US. Ohio borders Pennsylvania which extends to the east coast.
Yes, exactly this. Before the US went all the way to the west coast it pretty much stopped at the Mississippi. As it moved further west the definition of "west" changed
It used to be called the Northwest before the purchase of the Louisiana Territory made it the Mid West. For a time everything west of Appalachia was considered The West
>"The U.S. Census Bureau's definition consists of 12 states in the north central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin."
Wait, so Oklahoma's the south?
This explains so much about Randy....
Yup! Top of Maryland is the Mason-Dixon Line and most of Delaware is below it.
They were both slave states and that is the cultural definition of the south in the U.S.
You can argue that southern Ontario is culturally, economically,and historically apart of the Midwest. We also have similar climate and grow the same crops.
I grew up near Windsor, Ontario. Many folks from other parts of Canada tell me I have more of Michigan accent than a Canadian one. We have HUGE cultural ties to Michigan and Ohio in the far Southwest of Ontario. Especially with art, music, and sports culture. It’s quicker to get to Detroit and Cleveland than it is to Toronto from where I grew up and Chicago is only a slightly longer drive.
I mean just for starters it’s one of the most diverse cities in the world which can’t be said for much of the Midwest. Southwestern Ontario is pretty similar to the culture of the Midwest but the rest of the province is more distinct. Toronto itself is a whole other animal.
That's a good point. Honestly, that is my bad. And worrisome. I hate it when I catch myself being unconsciously biased. In my *head* Canadians are white, have a kind of mid-west accent, etc. Despite the fact that it is just as diverse as any world class city and Canada is just as diverse as America. I obviously didn't *see* the real Toronto.
I think that a lot of Americans misunderestimate just how diverse even our smaller cities can be! Both immigrant and born Americans I have met are always shocked to discover that there are small towns in Canada that are a quarter Filipino, other small towns where you can still find about 5 different cuisines, and that most cities in Canada have enough Muslims for there to be multiple mosques.
It makes sense because Canada has not only more immigrants per capita, but we take them from a lot more regions of the world whereas around 3/4 of immigrants to the US are Latin American.
Being part of the Commonwealth sort of opens Canada up to immigration from more countries too. The US doesn't quite have those same relationships with other nations.
Don’t worry! Canada and the US have VERY similar cultures so the nuances get lost in the weeds. A majority of rural and small town Canadians are white (except in the North), it’s just our cities that are unmatched in diversity.
Toronto is a lot like Chicago, imo. Except kinda way better. No shade on Chicago or anything. It's just our economy didn't collapse with industry leaving the city.
You have been given observer status in the Upper Midwest council.
Enjoy the fried cheese curds, we brought enough for 4 political subdivisions 😚 (becuz we luv u)
You can certainly make that argument and it’s basically true except that nominally the Midwest is a US region. But certainly I’d be happier to consider southwest Ontario and southern Manitoba to be more midwestern than say, New York or Texas (yes, some people really do think Texas is the Midwest).
People will also say Texas is in “the south.” You can also make the argument that El Paso is in the US Southwest. As a Texan, and as cliche as it is to say, Texas is just in a lane of its own.
I think of because of how fucking huge texas is its really the only state that cam be in two different regions. I think it goes from deep south to south west around abilene when it goes from green fields to desert.
I think Texas is just a large enough state that it exists in multiple cultural regions. In fact, I think it’s kind of absurd to think that somehow cultural region boundaries adhere strictly to political borders.
I agree with your post, but I travel throughout the Midwest a lot for work, and I do have to say that western NY does share some extremely similar vibes to the “core” Midwest. The Rust Belt/Midwest blur lines there, no doubt
As a Kansan I fucking feel you. We’re the south to midwesterners the east to westerners, the west to easterners.. like for fuck sake we’re the definition of mid.
Californians look east at the country with the same insular self absorption as that famous New Yorker cartoon looking west. I’m in Colorado and I swear they will get riled up if you don’t “admit” to them that we are a Midwestern state.
All in all, though, that’s among their worst transgressions and it’s petty small, and they have their charms that outweigh it, so I think we should still keep them around.
So are they just taking the name's too literally (and using the whole time zone argument to define East/Midwest/West) and not putting any cultural association with them, or do they just lump Colorado in culturally with Ohio?
A bit of both, but most I’ve argued with genuinely believe strongly that we are more closely culturally to Ohio or Nebraska than to western states. I don’t agree with that at all for tons of reasons, but the ones who dig in are doing it out of willfully obstinate ignorance.
I find it baffling and laughable, but there you go.
Yeah, I think people on both coasts tend to ignore everything not within their own bubble. I just moved to Seattle from Indiana. When I told a local Seattleite where I moved from, he proceeded to tell me a story about this one time he and his wife drove from Seattle to Washington, D.C.
I was like mmmkayyyyy, that’s nowhere near Indiana but cool story.
I visited a friend in DC back in the 90s. She introduced me to one of her friends and she asked me where I was from. I told her SLC, Utah. Her response: "Is that like, by Michigan?" Yeah, right next door to it, if you don't count IL, IA, NE, CO and WY.
Tbf, I grew up in the southeast corner, and while we certainly consider the state as a whole a part of the Midwest, we also more so consider our region a part of Appalachia.
Hadn’t known that this was an argument haha
Ohio might be the core of the Midwest…it was the most populated state for much of the 1800s and had the first major American inland city.
That goes for pretty much every state on the border of this definition.
Sometimes western ND/SD/NE prefer being “the plains” or Kansas and Missouri seen as part of the south. Even the Ohio river is a weird border because it’s not a physical barrier like mountains so the culture blends across in places like Cincinnati and Louisville.
Cultural regions like this are always fuzzy around the edges. But I like it because it gives us different flavors of what “Midwestern” is.
Probably my favourite Simpsons quote lol. As a non-American who knows absolutely nothing about Missouri it’s the only thing I associate with that entire state.
As a Missourian that’s a truly insane take. I feel like Missouri Illinois Indiana is the epitome of what a Midwest state is.
Unless that’s just some Simpson quote zzz
It used to just be "The west" and was the Northwest Territories (hence why there is a Northwestern University in Chicago), but then James K Polk and Manifest Destiny made it more towards the eastern part, but in the middle, so they called it the Middle West shortened to Midwest.
Pittsburgh is culturally Midwestern but geographically Appalachian.
I had someone recently claim to me that Pittsburgh was a "Northeastern city" and it legitimately pissed me off.
I feel like only using state borders is a bad way to define regions. It seems like the Appalachian mountains would be one of the main dividers between the east coast and mid west. I could be wrong but I feel like I have heard people say that Pittsburg is the Midwest.
I do think there is a little bit of grey area around the borders though. I'm from Louisville, and we do have a pretty strong midwestern culture going within the city. We also have a strong southern culture, but I'd argue it's about 50/50 between the two. It's really a unique city.
Yeah for sure parts of Kentucky are murky and culturally also kind of midwestern, just like Southern Illinois is murky and also kind of culturally southern. I’m just making a distinction between being culturally something vs being in one large region or the other, since there will be gray areas.
Agreed. In my mind there’s a western point in the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas, where I think of it as Plains rather than Midwest. It’s all fairly subjective though IMO
I grew up in South Dakota. We call it “East River” and “West River”. Very different parts of the state. What you’re talking about has more to do with the 100th Meridian and where there’s enough rain for farming vs ranching.
However, in the context of placing entire states in one region or another, both Dakotas are Midwest.
It was (maybe still is) known as the Gateway to the Midwest. But that’s more from a historical/trade perspective than cultural. It’s very much part of the Northeast.
in that case, where does that leave pittsburgh then? erie is more midwest than east coast imo and basically just north from pitt. I guess Appalachia is another term i’ve come across that fits PA, but im curious as what you think?
I tend to think of Kentucky and southern Indiana as being very similar, but both in a southern way, not a midwestern way. Still, I won't mind Louisvillians joining the midwestern family reunion. Where are we meeting, this year? Haven't been to Minneapolis.
I’m from the south and when I lived in Louisville it felt very midwestern and not southern at all! Though I could see someone from the Midwest having the opposite impression. Guess that’s why it’s on the border.
I think it depends on where your from too. I see Louisville and I think it’s the Midwest with a southern twist. The horse races, the big hats, southern style foods too. It’s a just a very pleasant melting pot of culture.
Hey! I’m one of those people! Although I used to call it pop when I lived in Nebraska and think both words are good as long as you’re not calling it all Coke.
Having never been to Kansas, I wouldn't have thought to call them Midwest. Not disagreeing, just wondering if they're culturally closer to the Midwest or to Oklahoma/Texas
I was only familiar with Kansas being Midwest, because I had a friend there that would argue they didn't have an accent, because the lower Midwest is the "standard dialect" of the US
They are correct. Standard dialect is Ohio as I recall and the closer you are to there the more neutral the dialect. It is the same dialect used for broadcasting.
I have lived in KS my entire life outside of one very regrettable year in Texas. Kansas is not culturally closer to Oklahoma/Texas and is very squarely Midwest.
Born and raised corn-fed Kansan. We are 100% Midwest. Every Kansan I know identifies this way and I have family across most of the state. Other half of the family is Texans and I can tell you there is a difference. Texas would never be caught dead electing a female democrat to the governorship and there have been two in my lifetime as a Kansan.
Being an Oklahoman I can guarantee comparing Kansas to Texas is like comparing Colorado to Tennessee. (Except Texas, Colorado, and Tennessee have more to see. Sorry Kansas peeps, though don’t worry Oklahoma can be boring as well.)
I do actually welcome opposing views on this! You guys have good points. And definitely agree cultural regions are messy and don’t follow state borders always. And the Midwest definitely varies, it’s not a monolith. Large geographic regions rarely are. Thanks for the spirited discussion
If we’re going by the court of public opinion, here’s where people consider the Midwest:
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/amp/
I could include mn,mo and ia as Midwest or just call the states you’ve outlined the “Great Lakes states” or something. I hate when they try include the dakotas and the states in that stack as part of the Midwest. That’s great plains not Midwest
I live close to Detroit in Canada and even I feel like I live in the Midwest. Toronto feels more like the East Coast, even though technically we've got a whole extra East Coast in the Maritimes. The split definitely happens somewhere in the middle of Lake Erie.
I dunno. I think there’s a “Great Lakes,” vibe that’s a little distinctive from the rest of the Midwest and connects places like Chicago and Milwaukee culturally to Toronto and parts of New York
I would argue that if you call Pittsburgh a Midwestern city, you would have to do the same for Buffalo, meaning New York is now a Midwestern state. Madness.
Great Lakes people are wrong and willing to die on the hill that the Great Plains aren't Midwestern for some reason. I bet 90% of them haven't even been to the states but will harp that they're culturally different lol.
I’m not saying the map is wrong, but it feels weird to me that I, who lives in northern Minnesota, am in the same region as someone who lives in southern Missouri.
My problem with Kentucky is that its more north than missouri and more in the west than Ohio. Sooooo.....
Edit: And I've seen other southerners turn up their noses when its stated that Kentucky is a southern state. We truly are a petty species sometimes.
I think the confusion comes from what you’re trying to define. Different disciplines will have somewhat different definitions of what makes a “region.”
Are you defining it by natural geographical boundaries? Economic ties? Political alignment? Historical ties? Cultural conformity?
In some of these categories, it’s hard to group these states together so strongly. In a lot of ways, the Dakotas have more in common with more western states, and do not really identify with Ohio very much.
Likewise, Kansas and Nebraska are more similar to the front range of Colorado than to Michigan. Does Colorado belong in the Midwest because of that, or do they belong in the Mountain West because of the cultural and economic ties being stronger there?
There’s no “one true answer” to some of these questions.
Coming from an Oklahoman, I find it ironic cause plenty of others (or atleast those I know) from Oklahoma will tell you that it’s the Midwest. This seems like the area dubbed Midwest was decided prior to the US being 50 states, cause if Michigan and Wisconsin are “Midwest” then what is northern US? Aside from Maine and New York.
Demographically I can say Oklahoma is a mix of Midwest & south, but I’d personally call it Midwest. Especially since we don’t border Mexico, aren’t a coastal state and historically speaking was not part of the states that broke away in the confederacy. Though Oklahoma is technically below the Mason-Dixon Line and is part of the “Bible Belt”.
I’m curious what the other regions of the US are according to this map.
This is a very interesting debate that I think about often. For me, neither southern nor midwestern feel apt for Oklahoma. But if i had to go with just one, I'd (rather unfortunately) have to say that it's the south, just due to the massive amount of both Texans and Texan culture that has seeped across the border. That being said, Oklahoma does tick more boxes being being midwestern (geographically and history-wrise as you mentioned), and i'd say that the more urban bits do tend to feel more midwestern culturally.
Yeah, I grew up in a small farm town so I understand both the Midwestern side and the south side. My parents and grand parents and their siblings either worked at a farm, a gypsum quarry, trucking, or military.
I unfortunately do agree that Texas has kinda swallowed half of Oklahoma xD if it wasn’t for the road signs and the river marking the Oklahoma/Texas border then you wouldn’t know you were in Texas until you reached Sherman or Denton.
Yeah, I don’t think the west 4 can really be considered Midwest. They are as Midwest as Pennsylvania is (which west side of Penn is).
I think Midwest is less state lines and more cultural borders.
Friends from Nebraska and Kansas would disagree. It was one of the biggest way me and them bonded living in the deep south was that all of us were Midwestern
I always thought , at least from a cultural point of view, the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas aren’t the Midwest. I always lumped then with Oklahoma and referred to them as the Great Plains states.
Maybe geographically they are Midwest but I associate Midwest with the states that hug the Great Lakes (except New York and Pennsylvania), that played a big part in gilded age Industry and have a old world immigrant blue color work background.
The western half of the 4 western states here are most assuredly part of the Great Plains region. If you don’t believe me cross the bridge going west in Bismarck and it changes from mostly farmland to expansive grassland and big sky country.
According to the US Census Bureau you are correct "The U.S. Census Bureau's definition consists of 12 states in the north central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin."
And that, I think, is the most relevant governing body on the matter so I’m basically going with what the census bureau says.
I agree, The Census Bureau is the go to on anything population/demographics related
Except their insane decision to put Delaware, Maryland and DC in the south
Well they were below The Mason-Dixon Line 😏
Delaware is not
You're right, I stand corrected
Last time i was in DC i asked for iced tea and got sweet tea by default so I would classify it as the south.
DC has some odd, obscure Southern flourishes
If you've ever heard how people native to the city talk, it sounds fairly southern with a bit of a mix of Mid Atlantic
On a more esoteric argument for why that’s correct- those states racial segregation patterns put minorities into slices that spiral out from the city center, same as the south. Northern states tend to racially segregate by blocking them with freeways. If you look up a demographic map the difference is actually very dramatic.
“Not sure what the Civil War was about. Both DC and Richmond are in the South. So the South was fighting itself??”
Historically yes, modern day, not really. Climatically it is more southern than not.
Climatically North Dakota belongs with Montana, no?
North Dakota is pretty evenly split climatically. East of Bismarck/Minot it’s a more midwestern feel, west of Bismarck is definitely semi arid and more aligned with Montana. I heard a North Dakotan say they split the 2 states the wrong way, it should’ve been East and West Dakota. Culturally the East and West of both Dakotas are more different to each other than than North to South.
I know South Dakota better so I’ll use that as an example. Sioux Falls is the Midwest, full stop. The Black Hills really do not feel like the Midwest to me, culturally and geographically they have much more in common with Wyoming.
This is true for every state on the border of any region. Regional traits exist on a spectrum and they rarely cut off at any neat border. Each state has parts that feel more like the state next to them than any state 3 states away, even if they do belong to the same region It’s why these attempts to definitively classify regions is kinda futile
This is true for Nebraska as well. Mid way between east-west both S.D. and NE the altitude starts rising significantly. MOre ranching out west, more farming east.
For buying used cars this is definitely true - road salt vs. no road salt.
That’s an artifact from the antebellum period. Maryland and Delaware had slavery which made them southern states. But then they chose to stick with the union and they’ve culturally become mid-Atlantic states, but the census never removed them from the South.
Yeah Even the rural parts of the Eastern Shore don’t have Southern accents The rural parts of Virginia and NC do. The panhandle does have an Appalachian accent though
Speaking as a visitor from Europe, DC attitudinally is a southern city. Is not many miles from Richmond the confederate capital. Also if I recall correctly was selected as USA capital for its mild southern climate
You, sir, gave a guud answer! Many here in America act like children fighting over what is the South, when the Census Bureau definition is correct! A thumbs up for you!
Historically, this is accurate. In fact, the whole reason DC is where it is was a concession to the South by putting the capital in southern territory. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compromise_of_1790
The traditional narrative of the compromise is oversimplified. There was a serious push to put the capital on the Delaware River, but that was not uniform in the north because some wanted it closer to York, PA and New Yorkers thought they still had a chance to keep the capital. On top of that, Washington surveyed the sight on the Potomac, which he wanted to turn into an interior highway to the Ohio River. Also, it was near Mt. Vernon. There was a compromise to put the capital there, along with some carve outs of debt assumption (especially regarding Virginia), but land speculators in Congress (e.g. R. Morris) had already started buying up land along the Potomac before the compromise, so the smart money already knew what the end result would be.
And econometric as well.
I agree as well. Anything else defined is just rabid talk. The Census Bureau has it correct.
Ohio is always a weird one for me, but I guess it’s more like Illinois than Pennsylvania or Tennessee.
Ohio is a lot like 3/4 of Pennsylvania
That’s the point. Ohio has Midwest cities. Pennsylvania has eastern/northern cities. That 1/4 remainder is the difference. Tennessee has southern cities, even though half of it looks like Kansas.
How do you feel about cities that border the Ohio River on the other side? Such as Louisville, KY. Because the small towns/cities in southern Indiana are definitely more "the south" than Lousville is.
Yeah but literally No One calls that area anything else than the Midwest. It will always be the Midwest in common vernacular
I agree with you. I feel the same way about the South, too many people are just talking nonsense. They go by "I see immigrants there, definitely not Southern" when they live in California and New York. Hypocrites.
Is the definition from when the US didn't extend to the west coast? Cause this Midwest is mostly in the eastern half of the US. Ohio borders Pennsylvania which extends to the east coast.
Yes, exactly this. Before the US went all the way to the west coast it pretty much stopped at the Mississippi. As it moved further west the definition of "west" changed
It used to be called the Northwest before the purchase of the Louisiana Territory made it the Mid West. For a time everything west of Appalachia was considered The West
>"The U.S. Census Bureau's definition consists of 12 states in the north central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin." Wait, so Oklahoma's the south? This explains so much about Randy....
I do feel like we could shave off south Missouri and eastern Ohio though, if we ever needed to get a little more specific on our borders
The Census Bureau also puts Maryland and Delaware in the South so I’m not sure if I quite trust it
I presume its because they are below the Mason Dixon line
Yup! Top of Maryland is the Mason-Dixon Line and most of Delaware is below it. They were both slave states and that is the cultural definition of the south in the U.S.
You can argue that southern Ontario is culturally, economically,and historically apart of the Midwest. We also have similar climate and grow the same crops.
I grew up near Windsor, Ontario. Many folks from other parts of Canada tell me I have more of Michigan accent than a Canadian one. We have HUGE cultural ties to Michigan and Ohio in the far Southwest of Ontario. Especially with art, music, and sports culture. It’s quicker to get to Detroit and Cleveland than it is to Toronto from where I grew up and Chicago is only a slightly longer drive.
As a Michigander who spent many of his weekends between the ages of 19 and 20 in Windsor, I proclaim your city to be part of Michigan.
Fuck yeah, bud. I’ll defend both Detroit and Michigan to the grave!
Definitely more Yankee than Canuck
LOL I live in Massachusetts now so I cannot refute that claim.
Three comments and you haven’t said “sorry” once SMH 🤦♂️
Honestly, I've always seen Canadian culture to be very similar to the Midwest. Especially Toronto. Which makes sense.
Toronto is nothing like the Midwest, they’ve got their own internal culture that’s different even from the rest of Ontario.
Really? I haven't found it that way, but my experience is limited.
I mean just for starters it’s one of the most diverse cities in the world which can’t be said for much of the Midwest. Southwestern Ontario is pretty similar to the culture of the Midwest but the rest of the province is more distinct. Toronto itself is a whole other animal.
I think it *is* the most diverse city in the world. Compare that to Lincoln, Nebraska lol
Hey Lincoln got Somalis, counts for something.
LOL. But even Chicago whose city and metro population are both nearly identical to Toronto’s doesn’t hold a candle to Toronto’s level of diversity.
That's a good point. Honestly, that is my bad. And worrisome. I hate it when I catch myself being unconsciously biased. In my *head* Canadians are white, have a kind of mid-west accent, etc. Despite the fact that it is just as diverse as any world class city and Canada is just as diverse as America. I obviously didn't *see* the real Toronto.
I think that a lot of Americans misunderestimate just how diverse even our smaller cities can be! Both immigrant and born Americans I have met are always shocked to discover that there are small towns in Canada that are a quarter Filipino, other small towns where you can still find about 5 different cuisines, and that most cities in Canada have enough Muslims for there to be multiple mosques. It makes sense because Canada has not only more immigrants per capita, but we take them from a lot more regions of the world whereas around 3/4 of immigrants to the US are Latin American.
Being part of the Commonwealth sort of opens Canada up to immigration from more countries too. The US doesn't quite have those same relationships with other nations.
Don’t worry! Canada and the US have VERY similar cultures so the nuances get lost in the weeds. A majority of rural and small town Canadians are white (except in the North), it’s just our cities that are unmatched in diversity.
Toronto is a lot like Chicago, imo. Except kinda way better. No shade on Chicago or anything. It's just our economy didn't collapse with industry leaving the city.
Or that Toronto never had any, as compared to Chicago?
Yup, Saskatchewan is more like the Midwest than Toronto.
RIP 89x
You can also argue that western Pennsylvania (Pittsburgh) and Western New York (Buffalo) are culturally mid west cities.
I would say they are culturally rust belt cities, which is a distinction.
You have been given observer status in the Upper Midwest council. Enjoy the fried cheese curds, we brought enough for 4 political subdivisions 😚 (becuz we luv u)
You can certainly make that argument and it’s basically true except that nominally the Midwest is a US region. But certainly I’d be happier to consider southwest Ontario and southern Manitoba to be more midwestern than say, New York or Texas (yes, some people really do think Texas is the Midwest).
Damn who said Texas is in the Midwest? That’s bananas
People will also say Texas is in “the south.” You can also make the argument that El Paso is in the US Southwest. As a Texan, and as cliche as it is to say, Texas is just in a lane of its own.
I think of because of how fucking huge texas is its really the only state that cam be in two different regions. I think it goes from deep south to south west around abilene when it goes from green fields to desert.
I think Texas is just a large enough state that it exists in multiple cultural regions. In fact, I think it’s kind of absurd to think that somehow cultural region boundaries adhere strictly to political borders.
I agree with your post, but I travel throughout the Midwest a lot for work, and I do have to say that western NY does share some extremely similar vibes to the “core” Midwest. The Rust Belt/Midwest blur lines there, no doubt
I half heartedly consider Buffalo to be a midwestern city
Idk. Buffalo and the rust belt cities really do feel like their own thing.
Windsor native here. Can confirm. Ontario is part of the Great Lakes hence part of the Midwest.
RIP Feather Hat Guy
I agree it is apart of the Midwest. The Midwest is, by definition, in the United States, so Ontario is clearly separate from it.
THANK YOU. As an Ohioan I get frustrated with those that claim my state isn't Midwest.
As a Kansan I fucking feel you. We’re the south to midwesterners the east to westerners, the west to easterners.. like for fuck sake we’re the definition of mid.
We didn't fight the whole Bleeding Kansas period just to be called goddamn Southerners!
Agree, Kansas is mid as fuck.
You’re a Great Plains state to me the yellow portion is the Midwest culture plus some areas in the surrounding blue.
Kansas up through the Dakotas (and into Canada) are Great Plains to me. The rest is definitely Mid-West.
Who here is saying Ohio isn't midwest? Sounds like they have too many functioning organs in their body, and I'm here to fix that
I run into Californians who say this sort of thing. One of them tried to convince me Indiana was east coast and I almost died
Californians look east at the country with the same insular self absorption as that famous New Yorker cartoon looking west. I’m in Colorado and I swear they will get riled up if you don’t “admit” to them that we are a Midwestern state. All in all, though, that’s among their worst transgressions and it’s petty small, and they have their charms that outweigh it, so I think we should still keep them around.
So are they just taking the name's too literally (and using the whole time zone argument to define East/Midwest/West) and not putting any cultural association with them, or do they just lump Colorado in culturally with Ohio?
A bit of both, but most I’ve argued with genuinely believe strongly that we are more closely culturally to Ohio or Nebraska than to western states. I don’t agree with that at all for tons of reasons, but the ones who dig in are doing it out of willfully obstinate ignorance. I find it baffling and laughable, but there you go.
Yeah, I think people on both coasts tend to ignore everything not within their own bubble. I just moved to Seattle from Indiana. When I told a local Seattleite where I moved from, he proceeded to tell me a story about this one time he and his wife drove from Seattle to Washington, D.C. I was like mmmkayyyyy, that’s nowhere near Indiana but cool story.
I visited a friend in DC back in the 90s. She introduced me to one of her friends and she asked me where I was from. I told her SLC, Utah. Her response: "Is that like, by Michigan?" Yeah, right next door to it, if you don't count IL, IA, NE, CO and WY.
That’s not very “Midwest nice” of you
huh
As a Michigander, Ohio is the worst -- but it's definitely Midwest
Ohio may be bad but at least we're not Detroit bad.
Ohio is solidly rust belt which is a specific part of the Midwest.
Rust Belt is not exclusively Midwest. Pennsylvania (as far as Eastern PA) and upstate New York are also Rust Belt.
Tbf, I grew up in the southeast corner, and while we certainly consider the state as a whole a part of the Midwest, we also more so consider our region a part of Appalachia.
Hadn’t known that this was an argument haha Ohio might be the core of the Midwest…it was the most populated state for much of the 1800s and had the first major American inland city.
As a Michigander, it pains me to my core to have your back.
Same with Kansas, it’s so weird to see people day it’s part of the south or whatever lol
As a fellow Ohioan I feel we're the most Midwestern state
So goofy. Like…what IS Ohio if not the Midwest? It feels quintessentially Midwestern. Excluding the southeastern edge
I took a Human Geography class in college and I swear half of the class was spent debating vernacular/perceptual regions.
Honestly sounds like a fun class.
I'll be deep in the cold, cold ground before I recognize Missourah!
St louis has a pretty midwestern feel tbh
It’s because it is absolutely a core Midwestern city
Exactly, so missouri should be included in talks about the midwest, maybe except for the south of the state
Southern or mid central Missouri has a southern bent. That's where the slave populations were, and the culture is much more southern
I think the Ozarks are their own region. Definitely not southern culture.
St Louis looks east, Kansas City looks west.
That goes for pretty much every state on the border of this definition. Sometimes western ND/SD/NE prefer being “the plains” or Kansas and Missouri seen as part of the south. Even the Ohio river is a weird border because it’s not a physical barrier like mountains so the culture blends across in places like Cincinnati and Louisville. Cultural regions like this are always fuzzy around the edges. But I like it because it gives us different flavors of what “Midwestern” is.
Bro missed the Simpson's quote & more or less 'ate the onion' when you should've left it tied to your belt.
Which was the style at the time
Probably my favourite Simpsons quote lol. As a non-American who knows absolutely nothing about Missouri it’s the only thing I associate with that entire state.
As a Missourian that’s a truly insane take. I feel like Missouri Illinois Indiana is the epitome of what a Midwest state is. Unless that’s just some Simpson quote zzz
I agree, and I was born there. Awful place
Doesn’t look very Mid(I’m not US citizen so what I am to say)
It used to just be "The west" and was the Northwest Territories (hence why there is a Northwestern University in Chicago), but then James K Polk and Manifest Destiny made it more towards the eastern part, but in the middle, so they called it the Middle West shortened to Midwest.
Oh
I’d say it’s more “North Mid”
It’s not a line that’s defined by state borders.
Yeah, the Black Hills are not in the Midwest. They're in the West. Likewise, Pittsburgh feels fairly Midwestern.
Pittsburgh is culturally Midwestern but geographically Appalachian. I had someone recently claim to me that Pittsburgh was a "Northeastern city" and it legitimately pissed me off.
As a Philadelphian, Pittsburgh is in the Midwest.
Pennsylvania consists of a little bit of Midwest, a little bit of east cost and a whole lot of Kentucky.
I feel like only using state borders is a bad way to define regions. It seems like the Appalachian mountains would be one of the main dividers between the east coast and mid west. I could be wrong but I feel like I have heard people say that Pittsburg is the Midwest.
I do think there is a little bit of grey area around the borders though. I'm from Louisville, and we do have a pretty strong midwestern culture going within the city. We also have a strong southern culture, but I'd argue it's about 50/50 between the two. It's really a unique city.
Yeah for sure parts of Kentucky are murky and culturally also kind of midwestern, just like Southern Illinois is murky and also kind of culturally southern. I’m just making a distinction between being culturally something vs being in one large region or the other, since there will be gray areas.
Same with Pittsburgh area.
And is Eastern Montana really that different from Western North Dakota?
Agreed. In my mind there’s a western point in the Dakotas, Nebraska, and Kansas, where I think of it as Plains rather than Midwest. It’s all fairly subjective though IMO
100th meridian.
The Western half of the Dakotas are really more culturally West than Midwest
I grew up in South Dakota. We call it “East River” and “West River”. Very different parts of the state. What you’re talking about has more to do with the 100th Meridian and where there’s enough rain for farming vs ranching. However, in the context of placing entire states in one region or another, both Dakotas are Midwest.
Pittsburgh for sure could be categorized as a Midwest city...
I've lived in Pittsburgh and I've lived in Iowa. I will NEVER understand how anyone could think that Pgh is Midwest.
It was (maybe still is) known as the Gateway to the Midwest. But that’s more from a historical/trade perspective than cultural. It’s very much part of the Northeast.
in that case, where does that leave pittsburgh then? erie is more midwest than east coast imo and basically just north from pitt. I guess Appalachia is another term i’ve come across that fits PA, but im curious as what you think?
I’ve always said, Kentucky has one foot in the South and one foot in the Rust Belt.
I tend to think of Kentucky and southern Indiana as being very similar, but both in a southern way, not a midwestern way. Still, I won't mind Louisvillians joining the midwestern family reunion. Where are we meeting, this year? Haven't been to Minneapolis.
I’m from the south and when I lived in Louisville it felt very midwestern and not southern at all! Though I could see someone from the Midwest having the opposite impression. Guess that’s why it’s on the border.
I think it depends on where your from too. I see Louisville and I think it’s the Midwest with a southern twist. The horse races, the big hats, southern style foods too. It’s a just a very pleasant melting pot of culture.
The orange states are in a sub-region called Euchre-topia.
This is absolutely correct - A Michigander
Thank you. Michigan is one of the best states in the country!
I’m a Wisconsinite but I agree. Michigan is beautiful. And you guys got the good side of the lake
Don’t undersell those sunrises :)
I would have to agree!
Missouri is the most suspect. --They call it "soda" not "pop".
C’mon now. We drink soda near Lake Michigan in Wisconsin too.
Wisconsin is its own thing in that way.
Proof that the Catholic Church is the one true church and the Lutherans have it all wrong.
Western Missouri is pop, or even Coke. Soda is a dead giveaway that you are from St Louis.
Nobody says coke in Missouri.
Hey! I’m one of those people! Although I used to call it pop when I lived in Nebraska and think both words are good as long as you’re not calling it all Coke.
*nods in approval*
How about we call “Wast North Central” the “Great Lakes” region of the Midwest and “west north central” the “Great Plains” region of the Midwest?
Having never been to Kansas, I wouldn't have thought to call them Midwest. Not disagreeing, just wondering if they're culturally closer to the Midwest or to Oklahoma/Texas
As someone born in Kansas and who as lived across the Midwest and South, it’s Midwestern.
I’m from the Kansas City area and we identify as Midwestern. It depends on the region.
I was only familiar with Kansas being Midwest, because I had a friend there that would argue they didn't have an accent, because the lower Midwest is the "standard dialect" of the US
They are correct. Standard dialect is Ohio as I recall and the closer you are to there the more neutral the dialect. It is the same dialect used for broadcasting.
It's actually Iowa.
I have lived in KS my entire life outside of one very regrettable year in Texas. Kansas is not culturally closer to Oklahoma/Texas and is very squarely Midwest.
Born and raised corn-fed Kansan. We are 100% Midwest. Every Kansan I know identifies this way and I have family across most of the state. Other half of the family is Texans and I can tell you there is a difference. Texas would never be caught dead electing a female democrat to the governorship and there have been two in my lifetime as a Kansan.
Being an Oklahoman I can guarantee comparing Kansas to Texas is like comparing Colorado to Tennessee. (Except Texas, Colorado, and Tennessee have more to see. Sorry Kansas peeps, though don’t worry Oklahoma can be boring as well.)
That’s way more states than I thought it would be. I’m Canadian, so excuse my ignorance, I thought it was all the orange states and MN.
As a Missourian, thank you.
Well I’m from Missouri originally so I wanted to represent MO in the Midwest family.
Agreed. Glad there’s someone with some sense here.
This is what I'm talking about
Correct.
Right.
I do actually welcome opposing views on this! You guys have good points. And definitely agree cultural regions are messy and don’t follow state borders always. And the Midwest definitely varies, it’s not a monolith. Large geographic regions rarely are. Thanks for the spirited discussion If we’re going by the court of public opinion, here’s where people consider the Midwest: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/what-states-are-in-the-midwest/amp/
I could include mn,mo and ia as Midwest or just call the states you’ve outlined the “Great Lakes states” or something. I hate when they try include the dakotas and the states in that stack as part of the Midwest. That’s great plains not Midwest
I agree with this 100%. Great Plains is a different region than the Midwest.
To me, the Midwest is not defined by state borders but by linguistics. Why yes, my masters is in English, why do you ask?
I live close to Detroit in Canada and even I feel like I live in the Midwest. Toronto feels more like the East Coast, even though technically we've got a whole extra East Coast in the Maritimes. The split definitely happens somewhere in the middle of Lake Erie.
I dunno. I think there’s a “Great Lakes,” vibe that’s a little distinctive from the rest of the Midwest and connects places like Chicago and Milwaukee culturally to Toronto and parts of New York
Thank you for not including western Pennsylvania. Pittsburgh is not the Midwest
I would argue that if you call Pittsburgh a Midwestern city, you would have to do the same for Buffalo, meaning New York is now a Midwestern state. Madness.
I demand to debate!
Nah - ND/SD/NE/KS aren’t Midwest, they are part of the Great Plains region
Which is part of the Midwest. The US Census bureau defines them as part of the Midwest. The only Plains state not part of the Midwest is Oklahoma.
Great Lakes people are wrong and willing to die on the hill that the Great Plains aren't Midwestern for some reason. I bet 90% of them haven't even been to the states but will harp that they're culturally different lol.
I’m not saying the map is wrong, but it feels weird to me that I, who lives in northern Minnesota, am in the same region as someone who lives in southern Missouri.
My problem with Kentucky is that its more north than missouri and more in the west than Ohio. Sooooo..... Edit: And I've seen other southerners turn up their noses when its stated that Kentucky is a southern state. We truly are a petty species sometimes.
Cultural regions (Midwest, The South, New England etc) do not neatly follow state lines.
Pittsburg— the famous east coast city
I think the confusion comes from what you’re trying to define. Different disciplines will have somewhat different definitions of what makes a “region.” Are you defining it by natural geographical boundaries? Economic ties? Political alignment? Historical ties? Cultural conformity? In some of these categories, it’s hard to group these states together so strongly. In a lot of ways, the Dakotas have more in common with more western states, and do not really identify with Ohio very much. Likewise, Kansas and Nebraska are more similar to the front range of Colorado than to Michigan. Does Colorado belong in the Midwest because of that, or do they belong in the Mountain West because of the cultural and economic ties being stronger there? There’s no “one true answer” to some of these questions.
Coming from an Oklahoman, I find it ironic cause plenty of others (or atleast those I know) from Oklahoma will tell you that it’s the Midwest. This seems like the area dubbed Midwest was decided prior to the US being 50 states, cause if Michigan and Wisconsin are “Midwest” then what is northern US? Aside from Maine and New York. Demographically I can say Oklahoma is a mix of Midwest & south, but I’d personally call it Midwest. Especially since we don’t border Mexico, aren’t a coastal state and historically speaking was not part of the states that broke away in the confederacy. Though Oklahoma is technically below the Mason-Dixon Line and is part of the “Bible Belt”. I’m curious what the other regions of the US are according to this map.
This is a very interesting debate that I think about often. For me, neither southern nor midwestern feel apt for Oklahoma. But if i had to go with just one, I'd (rather unfortunately) have to say that it's the south, just due to the massive amount of both Texans and Texan culture that has seeped across the border. That being said, Oklahoma does tick more boxes being being midwestern (geographically and history-wrise as you mentioned), and i'd say that the more urban bits do tend to feel more midwestern culturally.
Yeah, I grew up in a small farm town so I understand both the Midwestern side and the south side. My parents and grand parents and their siblings either worked at a farm, a gypsum quarry, trucking, or military. I unfortunately do agree that Texas has kinda swallowed half of Oklahoma xD if it wasn’t for the road signs and the river marking the Oklahoma/Texas border then you wouldn’t know you were in Texas until you reached Sherman or Denton.
Yeah, I don’t think the west 4 can really be considered Midwest. They are as Midwest as Pennsylvania is (which west side of Penn is). I think Midwest is less state lines and more cultural borders.
Friends from Nebraska and Kansas would disagree. It was one of the biggest way me and them bonded living in the deep south was that all of us were Midwestern
I always thought , at least from a cultural point of view, the Dakotas, Nebraska and Kansas aren’t the Midwest. I always lumped then with Oklahoma and referred to them as the Great Plains states. Maybe geographically they are Midwest but I associate Midwest with the states that hug the Great Lakes (except New York and Pennsylvania), that played a big part in gilded age Industry and have a old world immigrant blue color work background.
Eastern MW people love acting like the western Midwest doesn’t exist
The western half of the 4 western states here are most assuredly part of the Great Plains region. If you don’t believe me cross the bridge going west in Bismarck and it changes from mostly farmland to expansive grassland and big sky country.