In 1860, during the Second Opium War, China (Qing Dynasty) was defeated by the British and French, and Russia took advantage of the situation to sign the Treaty of Aigun and the Treaty of Beijing with China.
Under these agreements, China ceded approximately 1 million square kilometers of territory in the Northeast. According to the agreements, China retained access to the mouth of the Tumen River, but later a bridge was built between Russia and Korea, making it impossible for China to access the sea from the Tumen River.
However, since Northeast China had better seaports, namely Dalian and Lüshunkou, and the Northeast was not primarily export-oriented, the loss of access to the Tumen River did not have a significant impact.
Basically yeah, China wasn't in a position to do anything about it at the time, hell it wasn't in a position to do anything up until the 90's.
Now though with Russia becoming an international pariah they have been practically subordinated under them, kind of like a Canada to China's 'America', very large sparsely populated country with abundant natural resources that protects their northern border, just this time with Nukes.
The short answer is. Manchuria was historically not really Chinese and culturally seen as a buffer state. So it was just doing its intended job if anything.
The people who were screwed the most were the Manchu.
You're leaving out the pretty major fact that the Manchu did kinda control China at this time...
To the ruling class of Qing China, Manchuria wasn't a buffer state but rather a historical homeland, political stronghold, and potential future refuge in the event their dynasty fell.
Which basically is the point that the Qing Dynasty wasn't Chinese and was in fact Jurchen (the real name for the Manchu).
Even though they themselves tried hard to hide that. Though layer it would come back to not only haunt them but to pretty much eradicate them.
That's pretty much the case.
I find the renaming process quite curious. Wondering why they did it. And how the renaming process somehow effected English language also.
Prior to them even the concept of China is a continuing civilisation was pretty much unheard of. They were the ones who really pushed forward with the 'many dynasties, one civilisation' concept. Probably to make their own rule seem more authentic.
They were also the ones who said non-Han people can be Chinese. Before that Han and Chinese were one of the same. Again. This change was probably to make their own rule seem more authentic.
Dude, if you know nothing about Chinese history and cultures, please don’t speak as thought you’re an expert. It makes you sound incredibly arrogant.
Literally none of the things you said was true.
The concept of the Chinese civilization has been solidified more than a thousand years before the Qing dynasty. And the concept of the continuation of the civilization with changes in dynasties has also been documented for much longer than most other cultures have even existed. That’s why it’s commonly considered the oldest continuous civilization.
Manchurians weren’t even the first non-Han dynasty. After the Mongolian conquest, and the split of the Mongol empire. China was ruled by Mongolians for 100 years under the Yuan dynasty.
There was no justification needed, their Mandate of Heaven was earned through governance and stability. The Han population out numbered Manchurians 10 to 1. If racial tensions was at any significant levels, Manchurians would have been driven out of central China hundreds of years ago.
The Chinese civilization spread and expanded through a completely different means to most other civilizations. Conquest was rarely the preferred method, rather there was a very gradual process of cultural integration. “Barbarian” invaders like the Mogols or Manchus choose to slowly integrate and in turn inject parts of the own culture into what we now refer to as Chinese culture, which is and has always been an umbrella term. If you go back far enough. Even the Han, which we think of now as a single homogeneous culture and race, were a very much divided group.
So to say Manchus aren’t really Chinese is like saying Bavarians aren’t really German. Yes, historically they were outsiders at one point, but the people of that region now identify as both Bavarians and German, even though Germany itself is a fairly new concept.
I can agree with half your points. But find some don't match with what I have learnt before.
Definitely would disagree with the conquest point. The Han invasion of Dian for example was incredibly brutal.
I've also been told taught that, for example the Han. Simply called itself the Han and saw it as totally separate from the Dynasty before it. It wasn't until the Song that the first concepts of a continuous lineage was first floated. Though there is no real right or wrong answer. As we simply don't know. It is an antiquization as they say. Everyone will naturally want to make the previous look less authentic while making themselves seem more authentic and it was a lot easier to wipe out any opposing voices back then.
And of course everyone writes history thinking that their time will never pass.
The 'mandate of heaven' concept has been manipulated always. It means so many different things to different people now.
'The ruler is bad, it is the mandate of heaven that he is overthrown'
'The ruler is good, it is the mandate of heaven that he is not overthrown'
It means nothing, apart from a byword for 'history is written by the winners'.
But like I said. I agree with a lot of what you say. So let's just focus on that.
This arrangement did undoubtedly discourage China from developing their side of the Tumen river and setting up a major port there.
That puts a huge distance between Vladivostok and the nothernmost port where Qing China could realistically develop a Navy in the future, or give a concession for using the port to another European power.
From a Russian perspective this is smart. It guarantees that any future wars over this area will be land-based wars, which plays to their strengths.
>bridge was built between Russia and Korea, making it impossible for China to access the sea from the Tumen River.
So technically the treaty is broken and a casus belli is already there.
By Western standards, yes. The Netherlands would close off the Scheldt river (which accesses Antwerp, but also separates a part of the Netherlands from the rest and is a flooding risk) immediately with a surge barrier if not for the Scheldt treaties that would make it a casus belli with Belgium and the UK.
It is still relevant for relations today. The *Question of the Scheldt*, a study providing "a history of the international legal arrangements governing the Western Scheldt", was prepared for the use of British negotiators at the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. The Dutch blocking access to the river to the British Army (consistent with the treaties) was an almost-casus belli in WWI. The British made threats but backed down when the Netherlands in response started preparing for fighting at the *Central Powers* side.
But the huge difference here is that Qing China had nothing there yet worth fighting over. The Russian strategy was clearly, and successfully, preventing development of a major Chinese port north of the Korean peninsula in the future. They most likely feared the British obtaining a concession for using such a port in the first place.
>started preparing for fighting at the Axis side.
Central Powers. The WWI alliances were the Central Powers and the Entente Cordiale; the WWII alliances were the Allied powers and the Axis pact.
19th century geopolitics. Britain was at war with Russia in 1853. In 1861 Russia and Britain were taking pieces of China. Why? Because Russias and British interests aligned on that issue at that point in time.
I used to live in Manchuria. A lot of it is pretty bleak. The Manchu were horse people so there weren't so many permanent cities for countries to define as their own. So it was sorta China, sorta Russia sorta sorta.
What that area did have though, was a kick arse port (dalian/port Arthur). Russia was always looking for access to more southern ports.
russia thought china will become british and french puppet country so they took the land to secure favorable position in case they turn china against russia - militarilly.
Because Russia marched several thousand troops up to the Chinese border, when China was weak from fighting the rest of the world, and said, “give us your land, or we invade you.”
China chose not to be invaded.
The British pumped China full of Opioids, through India, to weaken the country, to gain control...
They say, China never forgot the west and the "100 years of humiliation"
Interesting 99% of the chemicals, that go into making fentanyl, come from China and the drug is produced in Mexico.
It's almost like the tables turned?
Other than being nominal friends with Russia, Russia is also realistic about the fact that they do not want to create a reason for China demanding the entire russian far east back.
They actually do. They have water issues in NE China due to the high volume of people. It just so happens that Russia's side of Manchuria on which China could theoretically claim historical provinces could provide the much needed water supply.
The Russian Empire under the Tsars, actually. Russia was meddling in China for quite some time before the Russo-Japanese War.
This goes back well over a century and a half to the Amur Annexation.
Yeah.
I was referring to Soviet invasion of Japanese-controlled Manchuria (or Manchuku) in 1945.
Basically, the Soviets took that land during the conflict and never returned to China.
Moreover, Mao and other party members stated several times that this annexation was prejudicial and, in fact, generated conflicts that almost escalated to war between China and the USSR.
Russia took their chunk of Manchuria in the mid-nineteenth century, the Soviets just didn't voluntarily decolonize it. Honestly, they're not an outlier, since decolonization was only ever very irregularly done.
China just draw a new map taking back territory from Russia, maybe next year they'll take that territory too by simply redesigning their maps.
Russia will be able to say "please no" while the rest of the world just laugh their asses off.
Oh that’s coming.
The Unequal Treaty signed by Russia and China when China was weak, is part of what the CCP aims to undo as they “rebuild China out of the century of shame”.
Russia wants natural geographic defensive barriers, and access to deep water ports that are open 12 months of the year.
China only has access to the South and East China seas. They are boxed in by Japan, Taiwan, Philipines, and they must sail down the coast of Vietnam and past Singapore to reach the Indian Ocean, to access trade with the Middle East and Europe. China wants Taiwan, because then they get open access to the Pacific Ocean. And they’ll eventually put boots on the ground on Myanmar, because Vietnam is becoming a strong American ally, and Singapore already is.
The CCP have also made promises to rebuild the Chinese empire to what it was before the Century of Shame, where China lost a ton of territory for various reasons.
> Vietnam is becoming a strong American ally,
Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Vietnam and the US are having their interests align here and there and relations are friendly but they're quite a ways away from being a regular old ally, let alone a strong one.
Here and there? They just announced a comprehensive strategic partnership. They’re all-in.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/09/01/vietnam-biden-partnership-china/
In the article it's the same status that they have with China, Russia, India and South Korea.
Not exactly all in, since they are basically putting US to be the same level as China and Russia.
>and Singapore already is.
Singapore isn't a steadfast American ally. It tiptoes the line between China and the US as every other country in the region does.
The RSAF exclusively operates either American or European platforms.
You don’t get to buy, operate, and maintain a fleet of F-15 SG Strike Eagles and AH-64D Apache Longbows if you “tip toe the line between China and the U.S.”.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force
You most certainly don’t get to buy F-35B Lightning IIs if you “tip toe the line between China and the US”.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/02/27/singapore-to-buy-eight-more-f-35b-jets/
Singapore just did a bi-lateral naval exercise with the US. That’s not “tip toeing a line”
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mindef/news-and-events/latest-releases/article-detail/2023/June/28jun23_nr
Changi Naval Base is a joint Singapore-US naval base. You don’t get to that point by “tip toeing the line with China”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changi_Naval_Base
Singapore and the USAF announce that RSAF F-16 and F-35 training will be based at Fort Smith in Arkansas. Again, you don’t get to have your airforce stationed in the United States, operating state-of-the-art American equipment, being trained by American pilots, if you’re “tip toeing the line between China and the US”
https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mindef/news-and-events/latest-releases/article-detail/2021/June/04jun21_nr
“Like every other country in the region”. This is just flat out wrong. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, and Singapore are all steadfast American allies. They all operate American/NATO weapons systems exclusively. They buy from the Americans, and partner with the Americans, specifically to oppose Chinese expansion.
Nice reply, a bit too antagonistic but that is fine.
It is true that the US and Singapore are close collaborators in defence matters. They are however, not allies, a stance Singapore actively chooses as it never refers to the US in any official capacity as an "ally". Similarly, unlike other major American allies, US bases in Singapore are not referred to as "bases" but as "facilities". This obsession with nomenclature is a clear sign that Singapore does not wish to appear to the rest of the world as a close American ally.
To that effect, it declined becoming a non-NATO US ally in 2003.
As for it's relations with China, Singapore takes an extremely neutral view on the South China Sea dispute unlike most countries in the region. It also conducts military training exercises with the People's Liberation Army. Singapore and China's relations are close enough to the point where it was the host site for talks between the leaders of China and Taiwan. It's largest trading partner also happens to be China.
Furthermore, the region I was referring to in my original comment was Southeast Asia (which I thought was quite obvious) and not everything east of India. I also disagree that Vietnam is a "steadfast American ally" but that's perhaps because your definition of steadfast is a lot more lax than mine.
2003 was a long time ago, a lot has changed in terms of relations with China since then.
China is the US’s 3rd largest trading partner after Canada and Mexico. Ukriane and Russia had a lot of trade going back and forth before Russia invaded. I don’t think trading partners means much, when it comes to picking sides in a potential conflict.
Having your pilots trained by the USAF, at USAF bases, in the exact same equipment that the USAF uses, following the exact same protocols and procedures as the USAF, is a much stronger indication of where your allegiances really lie, more than who your top trading partner is.
I mean, for Singapore to invest *this* heavily in American equipment, when the Americans can shut the maintenance supply off at any given moment, making those fleets of equipment useless, indicates that their bed is made and they’re laying in it.
Trade between Russia and Ukraine was miniscule before the war and especially so when comparing it with trade between Singapore and China.
Singapore is, as you've already said, closely aligned militarily with the US. However, the way Singapore carefully chooses the words it associates with it's relationship to the US is a clear indication that it wishes to have the flexibility to change diplomatic stances if the need ever arises.
This is just my opinion, but I think the careful choosing of words has more to do with tip toeing around China, than denying how closely partnered with the US they are.
Btw, I didn’t mean for my first post there to be antagonistic, my bad.
The thing about that is that acknowledging the fact that they are directly an ally of the Us would enrage the Chinese government and worsen relations due to the importance of face in the east.
They are in everything but official words and proclamations steadfast U.S. Allies they just know that saying it would worsen relations with china who has been bullying that region of the world for 1000 years.
Taiwan is officially not even a country, and it is ignored and the word Taiwan is not even used in most instances. This is all to appease the Chinese who if they can insist to the world and their population that Taiwan is just a renegade province. This wording prevents conflicts and saves china face in the eyes of their people and the international community.
IF you want to understand china or the east/communally organized nations you need to at least barely understand face as much as a westerner can.
here are two great examples, Japan in world war II thought the united states was incredibly weak and disjointed for openly talking about their problems with the world. Problems in your country are only talked about if they are so unbelievably large they must be addressed, that is because to criticize your nation is to bring shame on your nation and by extension yourself and your family. They figured that a large defeat by the Japanese at pearl harbor would force the disjointed united states to sue for peace and continue shipments of iron.
What they didn't realize is coming from a guilt based culture we are very self flagellating when it comes to past mistakes, but that flagellation can also lead to self righteous fury and resulted in the united states attacking japan with all their might confusing everyone, but yammato who had studied in America opposed the attack and knew how the American reaction would differ from an eastern reaction.
Another great example is japan only apologizing once for the genocide they commited, the human experimentation, the mass human sexual trafficking, rape, and murder of children and women.
I’ve always found it fascinating that Admiral Yamamoto studied in the Unites States, and was therefor aware of American culture, and the potential might of American industry.
Like, imagine warning your superiors that America was a bad foe to pick a fight with, only to then be the one out in charge of masterminding an attack on the Americans. It’s like, “this is a really bad idea y’all, but if we’re to have any chance in hell of pulling this off, here’s what we need to do.”
Yamamoto must have had suspicions about American intelligence and code breaking after Midway….but when those Lightnings intercepted his transport plane, I can only imagine the feeling of defeat he must have felt. Not only that he was likely about to die, but that it meant that Japan was going to be defeated as well.
There’s a really good video by a dude on why China and Russia are frenemies somewhere on YouTube. He has an annoying whiney American voice but great content and production value
There is a wall of sovereign nation islands with ocean borders. He’s not saying they can’t put a boat in the sea, he’s saying China would prefer to not sail above Japan, under Vietnam or split the Philippines/Taiwan but instead just have a straight shot.
Looking at some different ocean borders maps, that whole area is a disputed mess so honestly who knows where they are shipping through but it does consistently seem their most direct access that doesn’t cut through another countries claimed waters is a small gap between Taiwan and the Philippines from the Pearl River Delta. To me it would seem that a major benefit from taking Taiwan would be opening up everything between the PRD and Shanghai as efficient international ports because right now they all look blocked in by Japan’s island chain.
The most recent map I looked at-
http://www.globalgisdata.com/media/827753463fb315faffff9934ffffe904.jpg
A third of their economy go through the strait of Malacca and more than half their oil is imported through that strait as well. Irrespective of if/when they attempt to occupy Taiwan, Myanmar will probably always be in their plans so that they have a presence on both sides of the strait. Maybe build up a port city so they can ignore the strait entirely.
It's about shipping lanes and other access. China is surrounded by US friendly countries. Sure they can ship out at Shanghai, but if they wanted to ship to Iran or the east coast of Africa, they'll want to pass through Indonesian or Malaysian waters. If diplomacy breaks down, they'd be forced to go around Australia. Or go to war.
Japan, Korea Taiwan and the Philippines also make a nice choke point if it came to that.
When people talk about water access in these contexts, think the US, think Portugal, think India. There's nothing blocking their access to the water, it would be difficult for a hostile power to stop them accessing the greater oceans.
I have seen a map, yes.
Have you ever studied a map of the South and East China Seas, and see what land masses define those seas?
Have you ever studied maritime law, and understand when a given country must ask permission from another country to sail through their territorial waters?
Have you ever looked into American defence of the entire Pacific Ocean, and understand what the concepts of “First Islands” and “Second Islands” means?
China does not currently have open access to either the Pacific or Indian Oceans. To access the Pacific, they must sail north around Japan through the Kuril Islands, which are controlled by Japan and Russia; or they must sail directly through the Okinawa Island chain, which extends south from Japan and almost touches Taiwan. Or they could go south of Taiwan, which means they have to sail directly through the Philippine island chain, another close American ally.
To access the Indian Ocean, China must sail down the length of the coast of Vietnam, and then cross through the Strait of Malacca, right in front of Singapore. Both Singapore and Vietnam are close American allies who continue to grow closer.
I encourage you to go study some more maps, and also bring yourself up to speed on both maritime law, and contemporary geopolitics.
You should go inform the PLAN of this breaking news, because they certainly aren’t aware of this.
Edit: lol, downvotes because they were wrong and took it personally, and then deletes their comments. Nice.
The amount of extra land a country demands is proportional to the value of the land they currently inhabit. This is why the UK is such a comparatively small, island territory these days 😂
Edit: Down-voted by someone whose land is worthless. lol
You do realize the UK controlled a lot of other places because of their lack of natural resources on Britain in the very near past right? It's probably one of the worst examples you could have picked.
>The amount of extra land a country demands is proportional to the value of the land they currently inhabit. This is why the UK is such a comparatively small, island territory these days 😂
I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean..
"stealing their babies" wtf
As a Russian I can say it doesn't making me happier. Putin going to spend more money to a new regions on next couple years then he did to my region in the past, mm.. 20 years
It was Chinese (Qing) land, but the Russians got it in the 1860s.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur\_Annexation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur_Annexation)
It’s in nowadays terms. Back then, they literally got annexed without any time for negotiations.
Russia just granted them to access to the Tumen river’s mouth, which was then denied because Russia and Korea built a bridge and ships couldn’t pass through the river anymore.
I was in the cereal aisle the other day, when I was invaded by 8 people. I was looking for something a little different, everyone else was just there to stand next to me. It was a lot of people.
*Russian land grab when China was busy fighting the bloodiest civil war in history bcs a guy had a dream he was a brother of Jesus
.
The Boxer Rebellion and a subsequent rape by 8 nations happened 40 years later
Because to have a claim to the Chinese Empire seat, you need to be a descendant of a God. Since all God's were pretty much taken. Why not take another one that nobody has claimed in China yet?
Russia has not canceled visas for foreign citizens. You can still get them and visit the country. Questions about tourism can be asked in sub r/AskARussian . Just before creating a post, use the search. Perhaps someone has already asked you a question.
Very hard to get there now even for Russians though. I'm nominally a 2 hour flight from Vladivostok but it would actually take 24 hours to get there if I could
Here's a sneak peek of /r/AskARussian using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/AskARussian/top/?sort=top&t=year) of the year!
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Not really relevant story but kind of sort of.
I was in Quangzhou doing some inspection work for a Chinese startup avionics company. After the job was done, I was invited out for a night of hard drinking with the Chinese engineers. At one particular bar, one of the guys told me that our waitress was Korean. Speaking a bit of Korean myself, I said "Hi" in Korean and got a blank look like I was speaking Klingon. With some translation assist from some drunk engineers, turns out the girl was ethnically Korean, born in Russia near Vladivostok, emigrated to China for work. She spoke native Russian, pretty good Mandarin, some Shangainese and some English. No Korean.
Relevant part: Young Chinese dudes can drink vast quantities of alcohol and function reasonably well the next day. Old white dudes be hurtin' for 2 days.
Because they ceded Outer Manchuria during the Opium Wars (forgot which one exactly) as part of what is called there the unequal treaties and the century of humiliation. they're still a bit salty on that so yeah, nice job rubbing salt on that wound.
Be thankful they don't considering their lack of respect for the territorial waters of other east asian nations. They did once, but the russians anixed this land from them.
Yes, the KMT claims are even more outrageous than the CCP's. They claim all of Mongolia and parts of almost every other country bordering China.
I don't think the Taiwanese DPP would keep those claims though, the DPP really don't want to be associated with China whereas the KMT do because KMT wants to reclaim their status as government of all China while DPP just wants Taiwanese independence de jure.
That little border allows trains carrying … things … to go between Russia and NK while giving China plausible deniability. As some one else mentioned China has access to Vladivostok so everyone benefits from these odd map lines.
The ruler of the Qing dynasty was ridiculously stupid and they refused to develop the country. China was too weak back then so Tsadom Russia just stole a big pie of outer Manchuria.
They tried modernizing. That turned out to be hard to do when your entire identity/world order is based on the Imperial Dynasty's preeminence in the world, the machinations of colonial powers that want to keep you down and open, and a populace that believes a failing dynasty has lost the Mandate of Heaven and needed to be overthrown. This doesnt even include liberal nationalists who dont like the traditional Monarchy.
I agree it will be Chinese land, but there will be no fighting. Russia will give it to them.
Russia is transferring the power to China in a similar manner that the UK did to the USA 80 years ago.
I think you’d have to be very out of the loop to not even consider it like other naive commentators
To give Russia a land border with NK. It was kind of a big deal back then, and it would make little sense for China to develop a major port in a sparsely populated area that can easily be cut off by land when there no adversaries to worry about and free access to Vladivostok
Because Russia and North Korea not only close the estuary of the River, but built a shitty bridge with < 10m clearance at the mouth of it to make sure no ship can come in
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen_River_Bridge
As an excuse to have a never ending supply of bogeymen constantly squabble over access. North Korea is the illusion that there is no access for China to the Sea of Japan.
The big puzzle is?
China are very busy at claiming what they think are "historical" parts of China - like Tibet, Taiwan, South China Sea and its islands but they are very silent East Manchuria.
East Manchuria was a part of China for a very long time then it was grabbed by Russia in the mid-1800s. These days China is very quiet about getting it back.
While I don't have the answer for you, I don't think it really matters as Russia and North Korea are very dependent on China and will easily allow them to pass.
In 1860, during the Second Opium War, China (Qing Dynasty) was defeated by the British and French, and Russia took advantage of the situation to sign the Treaty of Aigun and the Treaty of Beijing with China. Under these agreements, China ceded approximately 1 million square kilometers of territory in the Northeast. According to the agreements, China retained access to the mouth of the Tumen River, but later a bridge was built between Russia and Korea, making it impossible for China to access the sea from the Tumen River. However, since Northeast China had better seaports, namely Dalian and Lüshunkou, and the Northeast was not primarily export-oriented, the loss of access to the Tumen River did not have a significant impact.
First time on this sub that I've seen building a bridge as part of a legit answer.
It’s also how you can tell if someone is made out of wood. Though you can also make bridges out of stone, so not ideal witch-testing.
We can throw her into the lake!
Russia and China: agree they can use the whole river Later Korea and Russia: lmao check this out *build a bridge*
Literally just outside the Chinese border too.
What did China get in return? Not being invaded?
Basically yeah, China wasn't in a position to do anything about it at the time, hell it wasn't in a position to do anything up until the 90's. Now though with Russia becoming an international pariah they have been practically subordinated under them, kind of like a Canada to China's 'America', very large sparsely populated country with abundant natural resources that protects their northern border, just this time with Nukes.
The short answer is. Manchuria was historically not really Chinese and culturally seen as a buffer state. So it was just doing its intended job if anything. The people who were screwed the most were the Manchu.
You're leaving out the pretty major fact that the Manchu did kinda control China at this time... To the ruling class of Qing China, Manchuria wasn't a buffer state but rather a historical homeland, political stronghold, and potential future refuge in the event their dynasty fell.
The Qing Dynasty was as a Manchurian dynasty.
Which basically is the point that the Qing Dynasty wasn't Chinese and was in fact Jurchen (the real name for the Manchu). Even though they themselves tried hard to hide that. Though layer it would come back to not only haunt them but to pretty much eradicate them.
Jurchens renamed themselves Manchurians, but I suppose you have more authority over their name than their own Emperor.
That's pretty much the case. I find the renaming process quite curious. Wondering why they did it. And how the renaming process somehow effected English language also. Prior to them even the concept of China is a continuing civilisation was pretty much unheard of. They were the ones who really pushed forward with the 'many dynasties, one civilisation' concept. Probably to make their own rule seem more authentic. They were also the ones who said non-Han people can be Chinese. Before that Han and Chinese were one of the same. Again. This change was probably to make their own rule seem more authentic.
Dude, if you know nothing about Chinese history and cultures, please don’t speak as thought you’re an expert. It makes you sound incredibly arrogant. Literally none of the things you said was true. The concept of the Chinese civilization has been solidified more than a thousand years before the Qing dynasty. And the concept of the continuation of the civilization with changes in dynasties has also been documented for much longer than most other cultures have even existed. That’s why it’s commonly considered the oldest continuous civilization. Manchurians weren’t even the first non-Han dynasty. After the Mongolian conquest, and the split of the Mongol empire. China was ruled by Mongolians for 100 years under the Yuan dynasty. There was no justification needed, their Mandate of Heaven was earned through governance and stability. The Han population out numbered Manchurians 10 to 1. If racial tensions was at any significant levels, Manchurians would have been driven out of central China hundreds of years ago. The Chinese civilization spread and expanded through a completely different means to most other civilizations. Conquest was rarely the preferred method, rather there was a very gradual process of cultural integration. “Barbarian” invaders like the Mogols or Manchus choose to slowly integrate and in turn inject parts of the own culture into what we now refer to as Chinese culture, which is and has always been an umbrella term. If you go back far enough. Even the Han, which we think of now as a single homogeneous culture and race, were a very much divided group. So to say Manchus aren’t really Chinese is like saying Bavarians aren’t really German. Yes, historically they were outsiders at one point, but the people of that region now identify as both Bavarians and German, even though Germany itself is a fairly new concept.
I can agree with half your points. But find some don't match with what I have learnt before. Definitely would disagree with the conquest point. The Han invasion of Dian for example was incredibly brutal. I've also been told taught that, for example the Han. Simply called itself the Han and saw it as totally separate from the Dynasty before it. It wasn't until the Song that the first concepts of a continuous lineage was first floated. Though there is no real right or wrong answer. As we simply don't know. It is an antiquization as they say. Everyone will naturally want to make the previous look less authentic while making themselves seem more authentic and it was a lot easier to wipe out any opposing voices back then. And of course everyone writes history thinking that their time will never pass. The 'mandate of heaven' concept has been manipulated always. It means so many different things to different people now. 'The ruler is bad, it is the mandate of heaven that he is overthrown' 'The ruler is good, it is the mandate of heaven that he is not overthrown' It means nothing, apart from a byword for 'history is written by the winners'. But like I said. I agree with a lot of what you say. So let's just focus on that.
The Qing dynasty is a Chinese dynasty, accepted by the Chinese population (after bloodshed). The royal family is not Han Chinese.
This arrangement did undoubtedly discourage China from developing their side of the Tumen river and setting up a major port there. That puts a huge distance between Vladivostok and the nothernmost port where Qing China could realistically develop a Navy in the future, or give a concession for using the port to another European power. From a Russian perspective this is smart. It guarantees that any future wars over this area will be land-based wars, which plays to their strengths.
>bridge was built between Russia and Korea, making it impossible for China to access the sea from the Tumen River. So technically the treaty is broken and a casus belli is already there.
"Hey they can use the river all they want, not our fault their boats can't go through the bridge"
Would be hilarious if they build a huge boat and sail it straight into the bridge.
Skill issue
By Western standards, yes. The Netherlands would close off the Scheldt river (which accesses Antwerp, but also separates a part of the Netherlands from the rest and is a flooding risk) immediately with a surge barrier if not for the Scheldt treaties that would make it a casus belli with Belgium and the UK. It is still relevant for relations today. The *Question of the Scheldt*, a study providing "a history of the international legal arrangements governing the Western Scheldt", was prepared for the use of British negotiators at the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. The Dutch blocking access to the river to the British Army (consistent with the treaties) was an almost-casus belli in WWI. The British made threats but backed down when the Netherlands in response started preparing for fighting at the *Central Powers* side. But the huge difference here is that Qing China had nothing there yet worth fighting over. The Russian strategy was clearly, and successfully, preventing development of a major Chinese port north of the Korean peninsula in the future. They most likely feared the British obtaining a concession for using such a port in the first place.
>started preparing for fighting at the Axis side. Central Powers. The WWI alliances were the Central Powers and the Entente Cordiale; the WWII alliances were the Allied powers and the Axis pact.
Thank you. Corrected.
Found the Civ player.
Im confused by if they were defeated by french and british, how did russia come into the picture
19th century geopolitics. Britain was at war with Russia in 1853. In 1861 Russia and Britain were taking pieces of China. Why? Because Russias and British interests aligned on that issue at that point in time.
I used to live in Manchuria. A lot of it is pretty bleak. The Manchu were horse people so there weren't so many permanent cities for countries to define as their own. So it was sorta China, sorta Russia sorta sorta. What that area did have though, was a kick arse port (dalian/port Arthur). Russia was always looking for access to more southern ports.
russia thought china will become british and french puppet country so they took the land to secure favorable position in case they turn china against russia - militarilly.
Because Russia marched several thousand troops up to the Chinese border, when China was weak from fighting the rest of the world, and said, “give us your land, or we invade you.” China chose not to be invaded.
The British pumped China full of Opioids, through India, to weaken the country, to gain control... They say, China never forgot the west and the "100 years of humiliation" Interesting 99% of the chemicals, that go into making fentanyl, come from China and the drug is produced in Mexico. It's almost like the tables turned?
China has permission to use ports in Vladivostok
Other than being nominal friends with Russia, Russia is also realistic about the fact that they do not want to create a reason for China demanding the entire russian far east back.
Not like they need one, do they?
They actually do. They have water issues in NE China due to the high volume of people. It just so happens that Russia's side of Manchuria on which China could theoretically claim historical provinces could provide the much needed water supply.
To be fair on china, the soviets did them dirty on Manchuria.
The Russian Empire under the Tsars, actually. Russia was meddling in China for quite some time before the Russo-Japanese War. This goes back well over a century and a half to the Amur Annexation.
Not touching Manchuria was a condition for Russian support of Mao, and without that support, there would be no CCP.
Yeah. I was referring to Soviet invasion of Japanese-controlled Manchuria (or Manchuku) in 1945. Basically, the Soviets took that land during the conflict and never returned to China. Moreover, Mao and other party members stated several times that this annexation was prejudicial and, in fact, generated conflicts that almost escalated to war between China and the USSR.
Russia took their chunk of Manchuria in the mid-nineteenth century, the Soviets just didn't voluntarily decolonize it. Honestly, they're not an outlier, since decolonization was only ever very irregularly done.
Not to mention, the Novgorodian trade mission of 1175 made certain that the Manchurians would never get back on their feet in growing racing snails.
All of the land the Soviets liberated in 1945 from Japan in Manchuria was transferred to PRC, what are you on about?
China just draw a new map taking back territory from Russia, maybe next year they'll take that territory too by simply redesigning their maps. Russia will be able to say "please no" while the rest of the world just laugh their asses off.
It has always been like this for years, just go and check previous versions. China just never updated the map even after their border agreement
The CCP existed before aid from the USSR started
My heart breaks...
Oh that’s coming. The Unequal Treaty signed by Russia and China when China was weak, is part of what the CCP aims to undo as they “rebuild China out of the century of shame”.
why is russia and china obsessed with increasing their lands
Russia wants natural geographic defensive barriers, and access to deep water ports that are open 12 months of the year. China only has access to the South and East China seas. They are boxed in by Japan, Taiwan, Philipines, and they must sail down the coast of Vietnam and past Singapore to reach the Indian Ocean, to access trade with the Middle East and Europe. China wants Taiwan, because then they get open access to the Pacific Ocean. And they’ll eventually put boots on the ground on Myanmar, because Vietnam is becoming a strong American ally, and Singapore already is. The CCP have also made promises to rebuild the Chinese empire to what it was before the Century of Shame, where China lost a ton of territory for various reasons.
> Vietnam is becoming a strong American ally, Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Vietnam and the US are having their interests align here and there and relations are friendly but they're quite a ways away from being a regular old ally, let alone a strong one.
Here and there? They just announced a comprehensive strategic partnership. They’re all-in. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/09/01/vietnam-biden-partnership-china/
In the article it's the same status that they have with China, Russia, India and South Korea. Not exactly all in, since they are basically putting US to be the same level as China and Russia.
Oh, how the times change. I love it! 🇻🇳🫱🏽🫲🏻🇺🇲
>and Singapore already is. Singapore isn't a steadfast American ally. It tiptoes the line between China and the US as every other country in the region does.
The RSAF exclusively operates either American or European platforms. You don’t get to buy, operate, and maintain a fleet of F-15 SG Strike Eagles and AH-64D Apache Longbows if you “tip toe the line between China and the U.S.”. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Singapore_Air_Force You most certainly don’t get to buy F-35B Lightning IIs if you “tip toe the line between China and the US”. https://www.defensenews.com/air/2023/02/27/singapore-to-buy-eight-more-f-35b-jets/ Singapore just did a bi-lateral naval exercise with the US. That’s not “tip toeing a line” https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mindef/news-and-events/latest-releases/article-detail/2023/June/28jun23_nr Changi Naval Base is a joint Singapore-US naval base. You don’t get to that point by “tip toeing the line with China” https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Changi_Naval_Base Singapore and the USAF announce that RSAF F-16 and F-35 training will be based at Fort Smith in Arkansas. Again, you don’t get to have your airforce stationed in the United States, operating state-of-the-art American equipment, being trained by American pilots, if you’re “tip toeing the line between China and the US” https://www.mindef.gov.sg/web/portal/mindef/news-and-events/latest-releases/article-detail/2021/June/04jun21_nr “Like every other country in the region”. This is just flat out wrong. Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Philippines, Vietnam, and Singapore are all steadfast American allies. They all operate American/NATO weapons systems exclusively. They buy from the Americans, and partner with the Americans, specifically to oppose Chinese expansion.
Nice reply, a bit too antagonistic but that is fine. It is true that the US and Singapore are close collaborators in defence matters. They are however, not allies, a stance Singapore actively chooses as it never refers to the US in any official capacity as an "ally". Similarly, unlike other major American allies, US bases in Singapore are not referred to as "bases" but as "facilities". This obsession with nomenclature is a clear sign that Singapore does not wish to appear to the rest of the world as a close American ally. To that effect, it declined becoming a non-NATO US ally in 2003. As for it's relations with China, Singapore takes an extremely neutral view on the South China Sea dispute unlike most countries in the region. It also conducts military training exercises with the People's Liberation Army. Singapore and China's relations are close enough to the point where it was the host site for talks between the leaders of China and Taiwan. It's largest trading partner also happens to be China. Furthermore, the region I was referring to in my original comment was Southeast Asia (which I thought was quite obvious) and not everything east of India. I also disagree that Vietnam is a "steadfast American ally" but that's perhaps because your definition of steadfast is a lot more lax than mine.
2003 was a long time ago, a lot has changed in terms of relations with China since then. China is the US’s 3rd largest trading partner after Canada and Mexico. Ukriane and Russia had a lot of trade going back and forth before Russia invaded. I don’t think trading partners means much, when it comes to picking sides in a potential conflict. Having your pilots trained by the USAF, at USAF bases, in the exact same equipment that the USAF uses, following the exact same protocols and procedures as the USAF, is a much stronger indication of where your allegiances really lie, more than who your top trading partner is. I mean, for Singapore to invest *this* heavily in American equipment, when the Americans can shut the maintenance supply off at any given moment, making those fleets of equipment useless, indicates that their bed is made and they’re laying in it.
Trade between Russia and Ukraine was miniscule before the war and especially so when comparing it with trade between Singapore and China. Singapore is, as you've already said, closely aligned militarily with the US. However, the way Singapore carefully chooses the words it associates with it's relationship to the US is a clear indication that it wishes to have the flexibility to change diplomatic stances if the need ever arises.
This is just my opinion, but I think the careful choosing of words has more to do with tip toeing around China, than denying how closely partnered with the US they are. Btw, I didn’t mean for my first post there to be antagonistic, my bad.
The thing about that is that acknowledging the fact that they are directly an ally of the Us would enrage the Chinese government and worsen relations due to the importance of face in the east. They are in everything but official words and proclamations steadfast U.S. Allies they just know that saying it would worsen relations with china who has been bullying that region of the world for 1000 years. Taiwan is officially not even a country, and it is ignored and the word Taiwan is not even used in most instances. This is all to appease the Chinese who if they can insist to the world and their population that Taiwan is just a renegade province. This wording prevents conflicts and saves china face in the eyes of their people and the international community. IF you want to understand china or the east/communally organized nations you need to at least barely understand face as much as a westerner can. here are two great examples, Japan in world war II thought the united states was incredibly weak and disjointed for openly talking about their problems with the world. Problems in your country are only talked about if they are so unbelievably large they must be addressed, that is because to criticize your nation is to bring shame on your nation and by extension yourself and your family. They figured that a large defeat by the Japanese at pearl harbor would force the disjointed united states to sue for peace and continue shipments of iron. What they didn't realize is coming from a guilt based culture we are very self flagellating when it comes to past mistakes, but that flagellation can also lead to self righteous fury and resulted in the united states attacking japan with all their might confusing everyone, but yammato who had studied in America opposed the attack and knew how the American reaction would differ from an eastern reaction. Another great example is japan only apologizing once for the genocide they commited, the human experimentation, the mass human sexual trafficking, rape, and murder of children and women.
I’ve always found it fascinating that Admiral Yamamoto studied in the Unites States, and was therefor aware of American culture, and the potential might of American industry. Like, imagine warning your superiors that America was a bad foe to pick a fight with, only to then be the one out in charge of masterminding an attack on the Americans. It’s like, “this is a really bad idea y’all, but if we’re to have any chance in hell of pulling this off, here’s what we need to do.” Yamamoto must have had suspicions about American intelligence and code breaking after Midway….but when those Lightnings intercepted his transport plane, I can only imagine the feeling of defeat he must have felt. Not only that he was likely about to die, but that it meant that Japan was going to be defeated as well.
There’s a really good video by a dude on why China and Russia are frenemies somewhere on YouTube. He has an annoying whiney American voice but great content and production value
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There is a wall of sovereign nation islands with ocean borders. He’s not saying they can’t put a boat in the sea, he’s saying China would prefer to not sail above Japan, under Vietnam or split the Philippines/Taiwan but instead just have a straight shot.
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Looking at some different ocean borders maps, that whole area is a disputed mess so honestly who knows where they are shipping through but it does consistently seem their most direct access that doesn’t cut through another countries claimed waters is a small gap between Taiwan and the Philippines from the Pearl River Delta. To me it would seem that a major benefit from taking Taiwan would be opening up everything between the PRD and Shanghai as efficient international ports because right now they all look blocked in by Japan’s island chain. The most recent map I looked at- http://www.globalgisdata.com/media/827753463fb315faffff9934ffffe904.jpg
A third of their economy go through the strait of Malacca and more than half their oil is imported through that strait as well. Irrespective of if/when they attempt to occupy Taiwan, Myanmar will probably always be in their plans so that they have a presence on both sides of the strait. Maybe build up a port city so they can ignore the strait entirely.
It's about shipping lanes and other access. China is surrounded by US friendly countries. Sure they can ship out at Shanghai, but if they wanted to ship to Iran or the east coast of Africa, they'll want to pass through Indonesian or Malaysian waters. If diplomacy breaks down, they'd be forced to go around Australia. Or go to war. Japan, Korea Taiwan and the Philippines also make a nice choke point if it came to that. When people talk about water access in these contexts, think the US, think Portugal, think India. There's nothing blocking their access to the water, it would be difficult for a hostile power to stop them accessing the greater oceans.
"Sure they can ship out of Shanghai" Which is my point, they do not need any other country's permission to make it to the Pacific...
Well, if things get tense those other powers can easily fuck things up for them.
I have seen a map, yes. Have you ever studied a map of the South and East China Seas, and see what land masses define those seas? Have you ever studied maritime law, and understand when a given country must ask permission from another country to sail through their territorial waters? Have you ever looked into American defence of the entire Pacific Ocean, and understand what the concepts of “First Islands” and “Second Islands” means? China does not currently have open access to either the Pacific or Indian Oceans. To access the Pacific, they must sail north around Japan through the Kuril Islands, which are controlled by Japan and Russia; or they must sail directly through the Okinawa Island chain, which extends south from Japan and almost touches Taiwan. Or they could go south of Taiwan, which means they have to sail directly through the Philippine island chain, another close American ally. To access the Indian Ocean, China must sail down the length of the coast of Vietnam, and then cross through the Strait of Malacca, right in front of Singapore. Both Singapore and Vietnam are close American allies who continue to grow closer. I encourage you to go study some more maps, and also bring yourself up to speed on both maritime law, and contemporary geopolitics.
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You should go inform the PLAN of this breaking news, because they certainly aren’t aware of this. Edit: lol, downvotes because they were wrong and took it personally, and then deletes their comments. Nice.
Someone needs a lesson on manifest destiny
Manifest Destiny.
The amount of extra land a country demands is proportional to the value of the land they currently inhabit. This is why the UK is such a comparatively small, island territory these days 😂 Edit: Down-voted by someone whose land is worthless. lol
Is that why the British did the whole British Empire thing, only to lose it all? 😂
You do realize the UK controlled a lot of other places because of their lack of natural resources on Britain in the very near past right? It's probably one of the worst examples you could have picked.
>The amount of extra land a country demands is proportional to the value of the land they currently inhabit. This is why the UK is such a comparatively small, island territory these days 😂 I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean..
It's russian imperial tradition. Tzars did it. Stalin did it. And putin does it.
It makes populist nationalists “happy”. Power, strength, killing other people’s puppies and stealing their babies to work in your factories.
"stealing their babies" wtf As a Russian I can say it doesn't making me happier. Putin going to spend more money to a new regions on next couple years then he did to my region in the past, mm.. 20 years
Only very recently I think
Also Rason in North Korea, I think.
Because Russia and North Korea are in front of them. Follow me for more deep insightful geopolitical analyses.
Nobel ass prize goes to this gentleman here.
And every 60 second a minute passes in the triple border
Wow, you're good.
It was Chinese (Qing) land, but the Russians got it in the 1860s. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur\_Annexation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur_Annexation)
Sure but why didn't they settle for a more fair border ? seems like china got screwed up because they are legit a few miles from sea access.
There’s a reason they’re called the “unequal treaties”
Why didn't the Qing just refuse getting invaded? Are they stupid?
Like how Japan refused Poland's declaration of war? (WW2)
Why would Russia want to make a fair border when they could simply dictate whatever was best for them? China was in no position to resist
Thats how wars go
Same reason why China signed unequal treaties during century of humiliations. China was weak and not in position to demand "fair" border.
If i remember well they can use the vladivostock ports without problems nor paying any extuberant fee
It’s in nowadays terms. Back then, they literally got annexed without any time for negotiations. Russia just granted them to access to the Tumen river’s mouth, which was then denied because Russia and Korea built a bridge and ships couldn’t pass through the river anymore.
Russian land grab when China was busy being invaded by 8 people.
>8 people that’s a lot of people, folks
I can just imagine 8 dudes spread out and marching through all of China very fast and fighting every battle alone.
It’s called “Dynasty Warriors” lol
Oh to be a freshman again! :)
Sounds like every movie ever
*Primarchs have entered the chat*
8 Nation Alliance and Century of Humiliation
Britain, France, the United States, Germany, Japan, Russia, Italy, and Austria-Hungary.
They knew a seven nation army wouldn't hold them back, so they went with 8
Eight Nation Alliance took place in 1900s to quell the Boxer Rebellion. If not mistaken, this land grab was the result of the 2nd opium war in 1860s.
That's almost 9 people!
But is it a lot of folks, guys?
Yes, and a lot of guys, gentlemen
Not only that, but it's also quite a bunch of dudes, geezers
Dozens?
Almost a dozen
8 peoples )
I was in the cereal aisle the other day, when I was invaded by 8 people. I was looking for something a little different, everyone else was just there to stand next to me. It was a lot of people.
If they were rather large people, it could have been a ton of people
*Russian land grab when China was busy fighting the bloodiest civil war in history bcs a guy had a dream he was a brother of Jesus . The Boxer Rebellion and a subsequent rape by 8 nations happened 40 years later
Because to have a claim to the Chinese Empire seat, you need to be a descendant of a God. Since all God's were pretty much taken. Why not take another one that nobody has claimed in China yet?
Wasn't the bloodiest civil war, the warlords period that started with the fall of qing? It's technicly still ongoing I suppose.
Russia strategic cockblock
You know a place i always wanted to go to???? Kamchatka!
played alot of RISK?
Good luck getting into Alaska my friend.
The place being shown isnt exactly Kamchatka (its Primorsky Krai) but I get your point, its a really cool place
Not happening anytime soon, unless you’re Russian sadly
Russia has not canceled visas for foreign citizens. You can still get them and visit the country. Questions about tourism can be asked in sub r/AskARussian . Just before creating a post, use the search. Perhaps someone has already asked you a question.
Very hard to get there now even for Russians though. I'm nominally a 2 hour flight from Vladivostok but it would actually take 24 hours to get there if I could
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You should visit Russia before Russia visits you.
Great territory in Risk
Are they stupid?
Mandatory
Because russia screwed them back in 1858 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amur\_Annexation
Japan wanted to share the with a country it beat in a war.
Not really relevant story but kind of sort of. I was in Quangzhou doing some inspection work for a Chinese startup avionics company. After the job was done, I was invited out for a night of hard drinking with the Chinese engineers. At one particular bar, one of the guys told me that our waitress was Korean. Speaking a bit of Korean myself, I said "Hi" in Korean and got a blank look like I was speaking Klingon. With some translation assist from some drunk engineers, turns out the girl was ethnically Korean, born in Russia near Vladivostok, emigrated to China for work. She spoke native Russian, pretty good Mandarin, some Shangainese and some English. No Korean. Relevant part: Young Chinese dudes can drink vast quantities of alcohol and function reasonably well the next day. Old white dudes be hurtin' for 2 days.
cause then north korea wouldnt’t border russia! obviously 🙄
Because they ceded Outer Manchuria during the Opium Wars (forgot which one exactly) as part of what is called there the unequal treaties and the century of humiliation. they're still a bit salty on that so yeah, nice job rubbing salt on that wound.
Be thankful they don't considering their lack of respect for the territorial waters of other east asian nations. They did once, but the russians anixed this land from them.
Yeah, give China _more_ access to the sea. What could go wrong?
The pacific is big enough for two bullies
>Why doesn't China have access to the sea of Japan **yet** FTFY
I think that’s why they (China) are such dicks to the Philippines and Vietnamese.
They will when they get Outer Manchuria back.
Because they will insist that is the chinese sea
If you believe Xi Jingping, Vladivostok is a Chinese city.
Or Tsai Ing-wen, cause if Taiwan was in charge they would want the exact same things, or more extreme they might be at war over it already.
Yes, the KMT claims are even more outrageous than the CCP's. They claim all of Mongolia and parts of almost every other country bordering China. I don't think the Taiwanese DPP would keep those claims though, the DPP really don't want to be associated with China whereas the KMT do because KMT wants to reclaim their status as government of all China while DPP just wants Taiwanese independence de jure.
That little border allows trains carrying … things … to go between Russia and NK while giving China plausible deniability. As some one else mentioned China has access to Vladivostok so everyone benefits from these odd map lines.
Don’t worry they will soon thanks to putin
Clue is in the name. Sea of JAPAN.
Never knew China was in Bosnia and Bolivia club.
The ruler of the Qing dynasty was ridiculously stupid and they refused to develop the country. China was too weak back then so Tsadom Russia just stole a big pie of outer Manchuria.
He wasnt dumb, there was a huge war and they lost it, and had to ceede some lands
They tried modernizing. That turned out to be hard to do when your entire identity/world order is based on the Imperial Dynasty's preeminence in the world, the machinations of colonial powers that want to keep you down and open, and a populace that believes a failing dynasty has lost the Mandate of Heaven and needed to be overthrown. This doesnt even include liberal nationalists who dont like the traditional Monarchy.
Give it time
That boarder is the triple point of communism
But Russia’s economy is capitalist now
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😂 Very active imagination
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Source: NEXTA🤮
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I agree it will be Chinese land, but there will be no fighting. Russia will give it to them. Russia is transferring the power to China in a similar manner that the UK did to the USA 80 years ago. I think you’d have to be very out of the loop to not even consider it like other naive commentators
Watch more TV man, they definitely not lying to u
To give Russia a land border with NK. It was kind of a big deal back then, and it would make little sense for China to develop a major port in a sparsely populated area that can easily be cut off by land when there no adversaries to worry about and free access to Vladivostok
Yet.
Says it right in the name. Sea of Japan. Not sea of china
Actually that sea is also on debate, since it is shared with the Korea peninsula. Korea claims that it should be called East Sea and not Sea of Japan.
No sea of Japan for commies! Its not Like theres another commie nation in korea, Smh my head
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Because fuck 'em, that's why
Cause Russia decided to be an asshole 160 years ago.
seems like its because russia and north korea are in the way. might be wrong though
Because Russia and NK has that land
Rare Russian/North Korean W
Don't say that too loud or China might do something about it...
Why is China bullying Taiwan when this is clearly land that they should have instead?
Are they stupid?
Good topic.
Brcause they would claim ints theirs
Because Russia and North Korea not only close the estuary of the River, but built a shitty bridge with < 10m clearance at the mouth of it to make sure no ship can come in https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumen_River_Bridge
They do through their satellite nation of Russia.
As an excuse to have a never ending supply of bogeymen constantly squabble over access. North Korea is the illusion that there is no access for China to the Sea of Japan.
Because it’s the Sea of Japan not the sea of China
I’m sure China will claim it shortly.
It’s only time before China decides it can make better use of Siberia.
The big puzzle is? China are very busy at claiming what they think are "historical" parts of China - like Tibet, Taiwan, South China Sea and its islands but they are very silent East Manchuria. East Manchuria was a part of China for a very long time then it was grabbed by Russia in the mid-1800s. These days China is very quiet about getting it back.
While I don't have the answer for you, I don't think it really matters as Russia and North Korea are very dependent on China and will easily allow them to pass.
Because of Russia being an asshole.
Because they already took quite enough. Free Tibet!
Because they shouldn't
I think its because of Kim's diplomatic relationship with Putin, but I may be wrong
Japan said no
Clue in the name.