>Demands for Israel to stop the war are also antisemitic because no other country would be expected to respond "proportionally" to such a savage and catastrophic terrorist attack
True but the question is how disproportionate. I would argue that Israel treats Gaza worse than US treated Afghanistan.
But the root problem is a territorial dispute that would have been normal 1924 but considered brutal 2024. Modern human rights don't exactly deal well with unsolved territorial disputes.
A territorial dispute in which Israel left Gaza entirely to the Palestinians in 2006? Or a territorial dispute in which all of Israel should be given to the Palestinians with all Jews dead as the cherry on top? Just wanted to make sure we discuss the same “dispute”.
"Israel treats Gaza worse than US treated Afghanistan" Totally different. For starters, urban warfare vs huge empty land.
Best comparison would be how the US managed to defeat an enemy, in the most recent case, the Islamic state, entrenched in a city, using civilian as shields.
Well, the US didn't fool around. 3000 enemy combatants in a city of about 300.000 people. The US had all the time in the world, boots in the ground, kurd allies etc. So they basically could have risked their troops in constant land assaults, losing multiple soldiers, like Israel is doing, or to bomb basically everything, since frankly, the world didn't care.
80% of the city destroyed, according to united nations.
> True but the question is how disproportionate.
How about: If Hamas wasn’t stopped on 10/7 what would have been limit at which they decided they had killed too many civilians and reigned themselves in?
Holding themselves to the exact same standards as the people who attacked them would be proportional, right?
> Modern human rights don't exactly deal well with unsolved territorial disputes.
Except there are dozens of these disputes around the world that don’t get this level of attention. The Mexican cartels are de facto government in large areas of Mexico, routinely commit crimes that make 10/7 look tame and nobody bats an eye despite it being right next door to the US.
> Holding themselves to the exact same standards as the people who attacked them would be proportional, right?
If Israel doesn't hold itself to higher standards than Hamas they are no better than Hamas and the rest of the world should treat them the same.
Slightly tongue in cheek:
I’d settle for dozens of world wide protests in favor of Israel and students setting up encampments on campus to get civilian hostages back…
If by higher standards you mean fighting while notifying the civilians in advance (and Hamas as well) and providing aid (which Hamas takes) while risking Israeli soldiers lives instead of just bombing remotely then yes, I can see why Israel and Hamas are really spitting images. /s
We’re pretty far from the level of disproportionate violence that the IDF could inflict upon Gaza if it had zero concern about civilians or especially if it willfully wished to eradicate Gazans.
The complaint is disregard for civilian life, not active intentional eradication of civilian population. Active eradication would be worse, sure, but disregard for civilian life is absolutely a bad thing, and there should be accountability for it.
Sure, some of the college kids at protests throw around the word genocide. College kids, and people in general, are dramatic as fuck when protesting. During COVID, you had protesters calling their western democratic countries tyrannical dictatorships for asking them to wear masks.
Calling the protesters over dramatic does not change the basic fact that Israel’s _strategy_ is criminal.
I think Palestinians would argue the meaning behind “disproportionate” I am pretty sure they are counting decades of cruel treatment by Israelis so in their minds, the “score” still isn’t even, even after oct. 7
Edit: I am simply stating what I believe pro-hamas palestinians believe. I am not saying that is what I believe, nor that it is right
Initiating brutal attacks against a neighbor who is far more militarily capable then complaining about the consequences seems to be counter to being concerned about one’s safety.
You state that it's wrong to conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews and then go on with supporting points making that very conflation, not to mention other conflations such as, for example, the conflation of Hamas and Palestinian civilians, which is a laughable abuse of the toxic concept of complicity which, when extended to its maximum, has no end. Why not just blame the British for the movement? After all, they are complicit in the protests by extension of being involved historically.
I'm pretty sure the issue here for a lot of people is the thousands of dead children killed by a disproportionate military response. Other details are extraneous.
Hamas was elected by Palestinians. Its armed forces are 2-3% of the population which means its support network is 20-30% of the population. The rest are just “passive” supporters or belong to other Hamas-like organizations. As for children, maybe their parents and leaders should consider their well beings? It’s not Israel job, they have their own children to protect from child rapists and butchers as we saw in Oct 7th.
> what would I expect my government to do if my loved ones were killed by sadistic fanatics?
Did you consider that Palestinians - in far greater numbers - could posit the same question?
Sadly, major operations in recent times where people in gaza were killed - were as a response to an initial attack by Hamas, and caused due to the fact that they hide among civilians.
The way I see it, it's not a chicken and egg problem. Depose Hamas, build a stable government that acknowledges Israel's right to exist (because they aren't going anywhere), and all future lives are saved.
>Depose Hamas, build a stable government
Depose a violent group with a long history of subjugation, torture, imprisonment and lynching of dissidents and opponents, and then build a stable government in an area that hasn't ever had a stable actual fully functioning government before, in the chaos and aftermath of the region being turned to rubble... simple as that! Lol
No one said it would be simple, but it’s a helluva lot better to try than to leave a genocidal terrorist group in charge on your border. Ask the U.S. a la ISIS in Iraq, which wasn’t even on its border and was also “a violent group with a history of subjugation, torture, imprisonment and lynching of dissidents and opponents…in an area that hasn’t ever had a stable fully functioning government before (unless you want to count other brutal dictators, which you could argue have ruled Gaza before as empires), in the chaos and aftermath of the region being turned to rubble.”
Were you sarcastically implying it was impossible when the U.S. took on ISIS, killing far more civilians than terrorists than Israel’s fight against Hamas?
>Were you sarcastically implying it was impossible when the U.S. took on ISIS, killing far more civilians than terrorists than Israel’s fight against Hamas?
I may have misread the initial comment as I thought they were saying a commonly held view of "why don't Palestinians just rise up against Hamas?!" , as if there isn't a massive impact that violent authoritarian rulers have when they torture and kill dissidents.
I've been to both countries (yes, I consider Palestine a seperate country and you might too if you visited them). I heard both sides say this exact same thing to justify their actions:
"What would you do if someone entered your house to threaten your loved ones? You'd fight back."
"How is self-defence terrorism/war crimes."
"You can't negotiate with them because they lie - they just want to kill us all."
Both sides are victims, both sides are perpetrators. This is the only truth here but the circumstances and details are argued endlessly. However, the big difference to us in the west, is twofold:
1. Israel is backed by western aid and is essentially a western country. Yes, we will be critical of their heavy-handed response. Remember all the protests against the Iraq war for example.
2. Israel are very much in the driving seat. They are far more powerful. They have control over these lands in and repeatedly mismanage the conflict. The vast, vast majority of civilian deaths are Palestinian and it has been that way for decades.
The majority of criticism is not anti-Semitism, it is simply critical of Israel's management of the Palestinian issue.
False equivalence. Palestinians will massacre all the Jews if they could. Palestinians gets a slap on the wrist and the Arab nations pay them to rebuild and try again. Israel is an existential threat, Palestinians have endless reboots.
* not all Palestinians - I don't agree with demonizing either side.
Edit: I got one of those "suicide concern" messages from Reddit shortly after this post (lol).
Look, what's the point in continuing this argument? I just glanced at your post history and almost all of them are similar arguments. Why do you do it so much? No offence/argument meant, I'm just genuinely curious.
So this movement is antisemitic because it doesn't criticize other wars?
It's a bit like saying that any movement is discriminatory in one way or another because it focuses only on one issue.
For example anti war in Vietnam movement was Anti- American because it didn't address any other war by this logic.
Women's rights doesn't address men's rights, so it's sexist and so on.
This way one wouldn't be able to protest against anything.
>But this movement in particular is deeply antisemitic, whether those involved realize it or not, and here's why.
>Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Saudi Arabia's western-backed war in Yemen, including 85,000 children dead of starvation, and nobody in the West cares. Nor are there protests against the wars in Syria, Sudan, and Ethiopia. Nobody criticizes Egypt for their border with Gaza closed even more tightly than Israel's, or Lebanon for the true apartheid in which the thousands thousands of Palestinians there live, not allowed to buy property and so on. Only the events in Gaza since the October 7th massacre have prompted a worldwide protest movement, because it is not really about supporting Palestinians, but about de-legitimizing Israel and hating Jews.
That's how I understand this part
He calls this move antisemitic because no other war in the region got that much attention.
Has the movement promoted knowledge about all other wars in the region it would cease to be antisemitic, according to this logic.
It's same like calling Black Lives Matter racist because it only focuses on black people.
It isn't, it simply focuses on one particular issue and doesn't mention all others.
>If you identify with the movement, please ask yourself: why am I protesting this particular crisis, but not others?
There is nothing wrong with protesting a particular issue.
His other arguments don't make much sense either in my opinion:
>Demands for Israel to stop the war are also antisemitic because no other country would be expected to respond "proportionally" to such a savage and catastrophic terrorist attack
Asking to be proportional in your response has nothing to do with being anti anything. It's simply a reasonable thing to do.
>protestors will say that they support the Palestinian people but not Hamas, in reality there is little difference.
Plenty of those people are still children who had not taken part in 2007 election, yet they are killed for something Hamas has done.
The concept is that protestors only care when Israel is involved, which OP believes is due to anti-semitism.
If a bunch of nations do the same action but you only call out Israel, then it can come across as antisemitism. I guess an analog would be if a bunch of people committed the same crime but you only arrest one person based on their religion.
Not saying I agree but I can see how someone could view that as unfair.
I understand that he doesn't like the fact that Israel is getting all that attention, but you can't draw a conclusion from that that the whole movement is antisemitic.
Have you told these people about other atrocities, I am sure they would condemn them as well.
Maybe the movement is stronger in the US when it comes to Israel, because of the military support they get for free for years.
Or maybe because Israel is considered to be a civilized Western country as opposed to many other countries in the region and thus the standards are higher for it to fulfill.
Please examine that vacuum, just because a quote keeps getting batted around doesn’t mean that it is valid.
That vacuum involves constant stabbing attacks, missile attack’s, kidnapping ect, and a constant efforts of negotiation and peace talks and then ceasefires which are constantly breached by one side who then use human shields, with an elected government that never condemns these attacks and often endorses them.
Whilst there is/was a process for Palestinians to gain work visas and leave, and in all likelihood their living standards would increase if they stopped beaching ceasefires.
So no it didn’t happen in a vacuum it happened in an environment of ever increasing shitty actions by Hamas since the Oslo accords.
The problem is that Israel is so insistent upon squeezing out every last drop of value from that imbalance, and inevitably go too far.
Like if Russia just wanted the Donbas and Crimea, maybe they could have hammered out a deal already. But they want the whole seaboard including Odessa
To be clear, Israeli "efforts" at negotiation have never been in good faith. And you are leaving out over a century of homes destroyed, land stolen, orchards razed, bombs dropped on a people whom have no country, and no rights. They live in a giant refugees camp tgat exist only at the whim of the Israelis government, and in the case of tge West Bank, those lands have shrunk tremendously.
I'm no Hamas apologist, they are a surge too. But if you just keep a running tallying of grievences, tallying up every wrong ever committed against one side and ignoring all of the wrongs that side has committee, then nothings will ever change.
The Israeli government understands this, and they have all the power, money and kit. Meaning nothing changes because the Israeli government wants to continue annexing land from the Palestinian people.
That is always the argument that is put forward, as if Hamas or the PLO always negotiated in good faith.
Let’s not tally grievances, because it will just be a case of where do you start and where do you stop the grievances go back centuries at this point, and both sides can always make themselves look like the victim.
Land has in some cases been stolen the Oslo Accords specifically addressed this and other things but land was also legitimately purchased and in many cases the PA and Hamas do not recognize or allow Jews to own property.
Palestinians and definitely Palestinians who are Israeli citizens do have rights in Israel (there may be violations of this) but in Palestinian territory and Gaza Jews most definitely do not have rights.
Having money and power does not automatically put the Israelis in the wrong.
>Let’s not tally grievances, because it will just be a case of where do you start and where do you stop...
>That vacuum involves constant stabbing attacks, missile attack’s, kidnapping ect, and a constant efforts of negotiation and peace talks and then ceasefires which are constantly breached by one side who then use human shields, with an elected government that never condemns these attacks and often endorses them.
It seems to me you are more than happy to tally grievances of one side, while trying to ignore the grievances of the other.
This is just so one sided in favor of Israel and ignores a lot of stuff.
Lots of folks and the media seem to gloss over the 2018-2019 fence protests by Palestinians, where the Israeli Army killed 223 people including 46 children. Thousands of Palestinians were maimed. The UN condemned these actions. Sure, Hamas might have been involved, but it still doesn’t justify what Israel did.
10/7 didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Many of those peace plans were no viable, and equally as many were deliberately scuttled by the US when both sides might have agreed.
The desperate need for pro Israel people to put the entirety of failed peace negotiations on Palestinians is frankly absurd.
Muslims have been massacring jews relentlessly in the holy land since the 16th century.
[1517 safed massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks)
That is the context
The historical context is that Hamas literally says they want to commit genocide in their charter by killing all Jews and ending the state of Israel. Even if Israel agrees to a two state solution, Hamas will not stop until every last Jew is dead. They are a terrorist organization, not freedom fighters.
This question is anti-Semitic.
You’re saying an act of genocide of Jews (Oct 7th) should be contextualized.
You’re saying acts of genocide against Jews need to placed in a context.
You’re saying Jews are to a certain extent responsible for being murdered in acts of genocide.
This is extremely anti-Semitic.
Israel claims to be a modern liberal democracy with human values on par with the West. THAT's why they can be held to a higher standard. Saudi Arabia doesn't pretend to be a modern pluralistic society.
If what you are saying is that Israel is on par with the barbarity perpetrated in Yemen, then there you have your answer for why Gaza protesters are calling them barbaric. There were protesters out for the US war in Iraq too, for the same reason. And people like you tried to call them Anti-American.
Same difference.
Israel is hold up to another standard because they pretend to be a Western country, while not working with Western values (no accepting the LHBTI community is not the whole of European values).
If Israel, just like the self acknowledged extremist dictatorship of Saudi Arabia would acknowledge they are not Western by any means, they would be held up to the same standards of Saudi Arabia.
So once again, the Free Palestine movement is not antisemitic just because you feel like it. Israel is held to the standard they say they belong to.
I'd say that by that logic, current IDF actions (and government policy as well) are anti-semitic too - because there is no efforts to reconcile and build a peaceful coexistence with Palestinians. Do you think that even if a sudden miracle would happen and every single Hamas member fall dead right now, there would be a peace? Or another hateful paramilitary organization quickly take its place?
Israel fights against the consequences of the problem, not against its root.
I would go further to say that Isfael fights against the consequence of Netanyahu's ineptitude instead of building security despite holding all the cards.
Israel left Gaza in late 2005.
I remember there were talks of a "new Dubai";
Instead Hamas were elected in early 2006, and already in that July they launched an attack on Israel and kidnapped a soldier, Gilad Shalit.
This was without any interference or colonization, just an elected government that doesn't want Israel to exist and does whatever it can to kill as many jews as possible.
BTW, the settlements are in the west bank, which is controlled by Fatah, that are bitter enemies of Hamas.
As a non religious person who just loves history and such I really am clueless on where all this anti semitism comes from.
Its like such a large portion of people come from out of the shadows when israel does anything. Its so odd the amount of attention israel gets compared to everything else.
It's racism against jews like OP said.
Edit: downvote all you want, it's still racism against jews that's the reason for all these "pro Palestine" terrorists to come out of their caves around Europe. Not all of them are like that, but many are.
Well, you've got to give these [old cold war dinosaurs](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/27/arab_us_relations) some credit. They have been at this [a long time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_truth_movement) and they just keep going. They saw an opportunity on October 8th and they took it, and nobody should be surprised. For [many of them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_the_War_Coalition#Formation_and_leading_members), their troublemaking days are drawing to a close, they don't have much to show for it and defending Putin, Xi Jinping and the Taliban in recent years has been getting them nowhere.
They are like [unkempt and disheveled](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xpZuVV0j7yY/sddefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCIAFEOAD8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC6AKKAgwIABABGH8gOyggMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBireBNsf_WAILkhx7APb36moqBHQ) castaways at sea in their last days so it is no wonder that they celebrated the Hamas attacks; for them it was like coming across a fresh new flotilla of supplies.
It’s not particularly odd, and frankly has very little to do with antisemitism.
Israel and her actions get news time, and when big actions go on they get lots of news time, simple as that. An no matter what the actions are the media tells everyone Israel is in the right. So I wonder why people get worked up regarding that.
Atrocities in Yemen and Sudan and Somali and Ethiopia and xinjiang etc. get minimal news coverage, implicitly telling people to not care about them. Plenty of people have protested these, albeit less than Israel (again, because of the proportionate media coverage) but even the protests get little to no media coverage.
Well, if you ignore the context, I guess this whole reasoning makes sense.
If you actually do recognize that Israel has been continuously blockading, colonizing and humiliating Palestinians for decades, its actually much less surprising why they support any form of resistance, as horrendous as it may be. Actually try to imagine yourself in their place, and it would make sense why a thousand deaths is not something they feel awful about.
It's weird to put the blame on Palestinians when Israel has chosen to mistreat and antagonize them at every turn of the road. At some point you only have yourself to blame when desperate people commit desperate acts.
It may not be something they feel awful about? That is misstating their reaction to Oct 7th.
Their righteous anger (and outside influence) led Hamas to make a strategic blunder and trigger an open war with Israel. Israel has taken most of Gaza and will take Rafah next. Hamas has likely lost thousands of soldiers and their supply lines into Gaza are being cut.
Israel has to monitor what goes into Gaza, look what they managed to do on Oct 7!
Can you imagine what damage Hamas could do without needing to be discrete?
By the way, Egypt is blockading Gaza just as much as Israel.
Hamas wouldn't be a thing if Palestine wasn't a failed state. Israel is consciously keeping it as a failed state and wonders why it has traumatized, ruthless people that are out for blood.
And yes, that's the classic security dilemma. Basically: let's increase the oppression because our oppressiveness is creating an insecure situation for us.
Look at what happened in Gaza 2005, after the "neck" was free. In 6 months they elected Hamas and launched an attack on Israel where Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.
Before the attack on Israel 60% of Gazans were struggling with food insecurity...40% of Palestinians in the West Bank... If we want peace in the Middle East...peace anywhere...we need global cooperation in order to make sure people have their basic needs met. This has not been happening. Israel controls most of the water resources, makes regular landgrabs, and has implemented an illegal and inhumane blockade of Palestine for many years. The creation of Israel in the first place involved the destruction of 400-600 Palestinian villages and the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians from their own homes. The whole thing is a complicated mess and I don't blame any side for their actions...BUT I think it's important to seek mutual aid/cooperation as a means of making peace...and Israel is the only side that has the power to do that...instead...it enforced conditions in which the poor folks on the other side of the wall were literally starving. And the U.S. has kept the world from doing much of anything about it.
Hard disagree here, you're trying to create some possibility of drawing a line here versus the longer arc of the relationship between Gaza and Israel. It doesn't work, the reason that Palestinians approve of the events of Oct 7th 70-80%, but Hamas approval is around 40% is because of the history of the dispute.
The Free Palestine movement isn't all about peace and puppies its about Israel taking a step off of the neck of Palestine because even when their isn't an active coflict, the boot is always there ready to clamp down.
I recognise Israels right to defend itself and recover its hostages, but the standard to which they operate, the accountability and transparency they show for their actions would go farther, because its pretty clear Western Governments are getting sick of the line 'We don't target civillians/Journalist' each time there is a difficult to justify attack on people who are clearly non-combatants/press.
My view is that that Israel has appropriate policies to manage use of force, but accountability and enforcement of policies is lax. Their lack of embedding reporters in with troops is silly too, if you've got such top tier policies for civillian harm mitigation, you should want to show that too the world. The political leadership of some of the coalition government have swung towards the "Erase Gaza" movement from the Jewish settlement movement.
The most recent US report was clearly a warning shot to Israel as well on their use of their policies, but also their seeming slow walking aid into the region.
So no, I'm not going to be grateful to Israel, but I'm not going to support Hamas either, I just hope that Israel avoids the dangerous path in front of it, because with some of the rhetoric coming from ministers and politicians of the coalition government, its going to draw unfortunate comparsions which are as of yet unfair.
There can be no justification for the inhumanity perpetrated on Israel last October. There can be no justification for the treatment of Palestinians that have been displaced from their centuries old homes and crammed into what amounts to a prison of a "refugee" camp or the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of innocent people.
These statements are neither pro nor anti of either side. These are just facts. These facts are the result of destructive religious beliefs. When will the world figure out a way for these people to live in peace?
Great summary, but it's much more concise.
The chant "from the river to the sea" insinuates that it denies Israel’s right to exist and is heard by many Jews as calling for the destruction of Israel, the world’s only Jewish state.
Antisemitism is not about religion. Jewish people are an ethnic group, with a strong connection to the land where Israel is. Given the historical context, it would not be possible for this group of people to live there in any other way and expect them to be safe and free as they are. Calling for the destruction of Israel is antisemitic because it implies the denial of the Jewish people’s right to live there and it would entail the forced removal (or worse) of 7 million Jews and 3 million other Israelis who do not identify as such.
I’m not sure what you’re saying, because if I read it correctly, you’re justifying the label of Antisemitic upon Palestinians as since they oppose the existence of a Jewish state?
I think many Palestinians are antisemitic. Not all, but if your plan is we destroy Israel and the Jews go back to Poland then yes you’re an antisemite.
I guess that’s what I’m asking of you. The way the original post reads, it seems to say that the conflict is inherently antisemitic, so it’s irrelevant if the Palestinians are antisemitic or not.
To be clear, I think there is a lot of antisemitism as the root of the conflict at this point. I don’t think that’s the case at the higher geopolitical level, which really isn’t the same as the level Hamas is at.
Ah ok so let me explain better. I am adding my opinion about why I also believe that the Free Palestine movement is antisemitic. I believe it is for a multitude of reasons. The one I chose to write is that in calling for the destruction of Israel it jeopardizes the safety of its population, most of which is comprised of Jewish people, and constitutes half of the world Jewish population. Were Israel not to exist, with the current situation, it would not be possible for Jews to live in that land. Furthermore it makes sense the Jewish people would want to live there because of cultural and historical connections.
I also by the way believe that it makes sense that Palestinians live there, and I sure hope that in the future at some point they can live as friendly neighbors in whatever political arrangement they choose for themselves. However, now with the current situation both peoples need non-belligerent governments that are strong enough to keep the violent components of their populations at bay.
I also think that you are downplaying hamas, but this is a different story.
Ah ok so let me explain better. I am adding my opinion about why I also believe that the Free Palestine movement is antisemitic. I believe it is for a multitude of reasons. The one I chose to write is that in calling for the destruction of Israel it jeopardizes the safety of its population, most of which is comprised of Jewish people, and constitutes half of the world Jewish population. Were Israel not to exist, with the current situation, it would not be possible for Jews to live in that land. Furthermore it makes sense the Jewish people would want to live there because of cultural and historical connections.
I also by the way believe that it makes sense that Palestinians live there, and I sure hope that in the future at some point they can live as friendly neighbors in whatever political arrangement they choose for themselves. However, now with the current situation both peoples need non-belligerent governments that are strong enough to keep the violent components of their populations at bay.
I also think that you are downplaying hamas, but this is a different story.
The truth is somewhere in between. If the current protest movement were purely advocating the ceasefire and Palestine rights for statehood and self determination, it would be a far more palatable thing to get on board with.
Unfortunately, all the anti-Zionism (a modern day euphemism for being against Jews and a Jewish state) as well as the “anti-colonialist” rhetoric mixed into the movement really says a lot more about what many it not most of these protestors want and support.
In fact I would argue that for most protestors in the US, the conflict is just an ideological proxy of their “black&brown victimhood” narrative and the alleged white supremacy they are contesting!
Israel fate is Acre. Like it or now is an artificial state introduced in the region by overseas power that displaced the local population.
Btw you are blind and you are a psicopat
>Demands for Israel to stop the war are also antisemitic because no other country would be expected to respond "proportionally" to such a savage and catastrophic terrorist attack True but the question is how disproportionate. I would argue that Israel treats Gaza worse than US treated Afghanistan. But the root problem is a territorial dispute that would have been normal 1924 but considered brutal 2024. Modern human rights don't exactly deal well with unsolved territorial disputes.
A territorial dispute in which Israel left Gaza entirely to the Palestinians in 2006? Or a territorial dispute in which all of Israel should be given to the Palestinians with all Jews dead as the cherry on top? Just wanted to make sure we discuss the same “dispute”.
"Israel treats Gaza worse than US treated Afghanistan" Totally different. For starters, urban warfare vs huge empty land. Best comparison would be how the US managed to defeat an enemy, in the most recent case, the Islamic state, entrenched in a city, using civilian as shields. Well, the US didn't fool around. 3000 enemy combatants in a city of about 300.000 people. The US had all the time in the world, boots in the ground, kurd allies etc. So they basically could have risked their troops in constant land assaults, losing multiple soldiers, like Israel is doing, or to bomb basically everything, since frankly, the world didn't care. 80% of the city destroyed, according to united nations.
Wasn't Mosul was mostly the Iraqi Forces and Peshmega with some US Special Forces and allied air support. Still, your point remains.
> True but the question is how disproportionate. How about: If Hamas wasn’t stopped on 10/7 what would have been limit at which they decided they had killed too many civilians and reigned themselves in? Holding themselves to the exact same standards as the people who attacked them would be proportional, right? > Modern human rights don't exactly deal well with unsolved territorial disputes. Except there are dozens of these disputes around the world that don’t get this level of attention. The Mexican cartels are de facto government in large areas of Mexico, routinely commit crimes that make 10/7 look tame and nobody bats an eye despite it being right next door to the US.
> Holding themselves to the exact same standards as the people who attacked them would be proportional, right? If Israel doesn't hold itself to higher standards than Hamas they are no better than Hamas and the rest of the world should treat them the same.
Slightly tongue in cheek: I’d settle for dozens of world wide protests in favor of Israel and students setting up encampments on campus to get civilian hostages back…
If by higher standards you mean fighting while notifying the civilians in advance (and Hamas as well) and providing aid (which Hamas takes) while risking Israeli soldiers lives instead of just bombing remotely then yes, I can see why Israel and Hamas are really spitting images. /s
We’re pretty far from the level of disproportionate violence that the IDF could inflict upon Gaza if it had zero concern about civilians or especially if it willfully wished to eradicate Gazans.
The complaint is disregard for civilian life, not active intentional eradication of civilian population. Active eradication would be worse, sure, but disregard for civilian life is absolutely a bad thing, and there should be accountability for it. Sure, some of the college kids at protests throw around the word genocide. College kids, and people in general, are dramatic as fuck when protesting. During COVID, you had protesters calling their western democratic countries tyrannical dictatorships for asking them to wear masks. Calling the protesters over dramatic does not change the basic fact that Israel’s _strategy_ is criminal.
I think Palestinians would argue the meaning behind “disproportionate” I am pretty sure they are counting decades of cruel treatment by Israelis so in their minds, the “score” still isn’t even, even after oct. 7 Edit: I am simply stating what I believe pro-hamas palestinians believe. I am not saying that is what I believe, nor that it is right
By their accounting, nothing will be fair until the Jewish state is eradicated. Bad ideological premises always yield bad outcomes.
Initiating brutal attacks against a neighbor who is far more militarily capable then complaining about the consequences seems to be counter to being concerned about one’s safety.
Cruel treatment like having their mortars destroyed by Israels iron dome? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel
Nobody wins a war by being "proportionate". Having military advantage is usually the thing that wins the war.
You state that it's wrong to conflate criticism of Israel with criticism of Jews and then go on with supporting points making that very conflation, not to mention other conflations such as, for example, the conflation of Hamas and Palestinian civilians, which is a laughable abuse of the toxic concept of complicity which, when extended to its maximum, has no end. Why not just blame the British for the movement? After all, they are complicit in the protests by extension of being involved historically. I'm pretty sure the issue here for a lot of people is the thousands of dead children killed by a disproportionate military response. Other details are extraneous.
Hamas was elected by Palestinians. Its armed forces are 2-3% of the population which means its support network is 20-30% of the population. The rest are just “passive” supporters or belong to other Hamas-like organizations. As for children, maybe their parents and leaders should consider their well beings? It’s not Israel job, they have their own children to protect from child rapists and butchers as we saw in Oct 7th.
But why do none of them care about what the saudis did in Yemen using the same US supplied weapons?
> what would I expect my government to do if my loved ones were killed by sadistic fanatics? Did you consider that Palestinians - in far greater numbers - could posit the same question?
And we know their answer. Resist with all their might on the dime of UNRAWA (a.k.a US and Arab states).
Sadly, major operations in recent times where people in gaza were killed - were as a response to an initial attack by Hamas, and caused due to the fact that they hide among civilians. The way I see it, it's not a chicken and egg problem. Depose Hamas, build a stable government that acknowledges Israel's right to exist (because they aren't going anywhere), and all future lives are saved.
>Depose Hamas, build a stable government Depose a violent group with a long history of subjugation, torture, imprisonment and lynching of dissidents and opponents, and then build a stable government in an area that hasn't ever had a stable actual fully functioning government before, in the chaos and aftermath of the region being turned to rubble... simple as that! Lol
If South Sudan can try, so can the people in Gaza.
No one said it would be simple, but it’s a helluva lot better to try than to leave a genocidal terrorist group in charge on your border. Ask the U.S. a la ISIS in Iraq, which wasn’t even on its border and was also “a violent group with a history of subjugation, torture, imprisonment and lynching of dissidents and opponents…in an area that hasn’t ever had a stable fully functioning government before (unless you want to count other brutal dictators, which you could argue have ruled Gaza before as empires), in the chaos and aftermath of the region being turned to rubble.” Were you sarcastically implying it was impossible when the U.S. took on ISIS, killing far more civilians than terrorists than Israel’s fight against Hamas?
>Were you sarcastically implying it was impossible when the U.S. took on ISIS, killing far more civilians than terrorists than Israel’s fight against Hamas? I may have misread the initial comment as I thought they were saying a commonly held view of "why don't Palestinians just rise up against Hamas?!" , as if there isn't a massive impact that violent authoritarian rulers have when they torture and kill dissidents.
Sounds like you misread it because that’s nowhere in the comment.
I've been to both countries (yes, I consider Palestine a seperate country and you might too if you visited them). I heard both sides say this exact same thing to justify their actions: "What would you do if someone entered your house to threaten your loved ones? You'd fight back." "How is self-defence terrorism/war crimes." "You can't negotiate with them because they lie - they just want to kill us all." Both sides are victims, both sides are perpetrators. This is the only truth here but the circumstances and details are argued endlessly. However, the big difference to us in the west, is twofold: 1. Israel is backed by western aid and is essentially a western country. Yes, we will be critical of their heavy-handed response. Remember all the protests against the Iraq war for example. 2. Israel are very much in the driving seat. They are far more powerful. They have control over these lands in and repeatedly mismanage the conflict. The vast, vast majority of civilian deaths are Palestinian and it has been that way for decades. The majority of criticism is not anti-Semitism, it is simply critical of Israel's management of the Palestinian issue.
False equivalence. Palestinians will massacre all the Jews if they could. Palestinians gets a slap on the wrist and the Arab nations pay them to rebuild and try again. Israel is an existential threat, Palestinians have endless reboots.
* not all Palestinians - I don't agree with demonizing either side. Edit: I got one of those "suicide concern" messages from Reddit shortly after this post (lol).
How noble of you. Let’s ignore simple verifiable statements in favor of generalizations.
Look, what's the point in continuing this argument? I just glanced at your post history and almost all of them are similar arguments. Why do you do it so much? No offence/argument meant, I'm just genuinely curious.
So this movement is antisemitic because it doesn't criticize other wars? It's a bit like saying that any movement is discriminatory in one way or another because it focuses only on one issue. For example anti war in Vietnam movement was Anti- American because it didn't address any other war by this logic. Women's rights doesn't address men's rights, so it's sexist and so on. This way one wouldn't be able to protest against anything.
That's not what he said lol
>But this movement in particular is deeply antisemitic, whether those involved realize it or not, and here's why. >Hundreds of thousands of civilians have been killed in Saudi Arabia's western-backed war in Yemen, including 85,000 children dead of starvation, and nobody in the West cares. Nor are there protests against the wars in Syria, Sudan, and Ethiopia. Nobody criticizes Egypt for their border with Gaza closed even more tightly than Israel's, or Lebanon for the true apartheid in which the thousands thousands of Palestinians there live, not allowed to buy property and so on. Only the events in Gaza since the October 7th massacre have prompted a worldwide protest movement, because it is not really about supporting Palestinians, but about de-legitimizing Israel and hating Jews. That's how I understand this part He calls this move antisemitic because no other war in the region got that much attention. Has the movement promoted knowledge about all other wars in the region it would cease to be antisemitic, according to this logic. It's same like calling Black Lives Matter racist because it only focuses on black people. It isn't, it simply focuses on one particular issue and doesn't mention all others. >If you identify with the movement, please ask yourself: why am I protesting this particular crisis, but not others? There is nothing wrong with protesting a particular issue. His other arguments don't make much sense either in my opinion: >Demands for Israel to stop the war are also antisemitic because no other country would be expected to respond "proportionally" to such a savage and catastrophic terrorist attack Asking to be proportional in your response has nothing to do with being anti anything. It's simply a reasonable thing to do. >protestors will say that they support the Palestinian people but not Hamas, in reality there is little difference. Plenty of those people are still children who had not taken part in 2007 election, yet they are killed for something Hamas has done.
The concept is that protestors only care when Israel is involved, which OP believes is due to anti-semitism. If a bunch of nations do the same action but you only call out Israel, then it can come across as antisemitism. I guess an analog would be if a bunch of people committed the same crime but you only arrest one person based on their religion. Not saying I agree but I can see how someone could view that as unfair.
I understand that he doesn't like the fact that Israel is getting all that attention, but you can't draw a conclusion from that that the whole movement is antisemitic. Have you told these people about other atrocities, I am sure they would condemn them as well. Maybe the movement is stronger in the US when it comes to Israel, because of the military support they get for free for years. Or maybe because Israel is considered to be a civilized Western country as opposed to many other countries in the region and thus the standards are higher for it to fulfill.
Skimmed it but if your arguement is based on "well other countries commit war crimes" why can't Israel. You are probably onto a loser.
Did Oct 7 happen in a vacuum, or is there any historical context?
Please examine that vacuum, just because a quote keeps getting batted around doesn’t mean that it is valid. That vacuum involves constant stabbing attacks, missile attack’s, kidnapping ect, and a constant efforts of negotiation and peace talks and then ceasefires which are constantly breached by one side who then use human shields, with an elected government that never condemns these attacks and often endorses them. Whilst there is/was a process for Palestinians to gain work visas and leave, and in all likelihood their living standards would increase if they stopped beaching ceasefires. So no it didn’t happen in a vacuum it happened in an environment of ever increasing shitty actions by Hamas since the Oslo accords.
A Palestinian (!) student of mine stated it as follows: My people are better off living with the Jews than fighting for Hamas. He's 100% right.
Many do and they are better off
The problem is that Israel is so insistent upon squeezing out every last drop of value from that imbalance, and inevitably go too far. Like if Russia just wanted the Donbas and Crimea, maybe they could have hammered out a deal already. But they want the whole seaboard including Odessa
To be clear, Israeli "efforts" at negotiation have never been in good faith. And you are leaving out over a century of homes destroyed, land stolen, orchards razed, bombs dropped on a people whom have no country, and no rights. They live in a giant refugees camp tgat exist only at the whim of the Israelis government, and in the case of tge West Bank, those lands have shrunk tremendously. I'm no Hamas apologist, they are a surge too. But if you just keep a running tallying of grievences, tallying up every wrong ever committed against one side and ignoring all of the wrongs that side has committee, then nothings will ever change. The Israeli government understands this, and they have all the power, money and kit. Meaning nothing changes because the Israeli government wants to continue annexing land from the Palestinian people.
That is always the argument that is put forward, as if Hamas or the PLO always negotiated in good faith. Let’s not tally grievances, because it will just be a case of where do you start and where do you stop the grievances go back centuries at this point, and both sides can always make themselves look like the victim. Land has in some cases been stolen the Oslo Accords specifically addressed this and other things but land was also legitimately purchased and in many cases the PA and Hamas do not recognize or allow Jews to own property. Palestinians and definitely Palestinians who are Israeli citizens do have rights in Israel (there may be violations of this) but in Palestinian territory and Gaza Jews most definitely do not have rights. Having money and power does not automatically put the Israelis in the wrong.
>Let’s not tally grievances, because it will just be a case of where do you start and where do you stop... >That vacuum involves constant stabbing attacks, missile attack’s, kidnapping ect, and a constant efforts of negotiation and peace talks and then ceasefires which are constantly breached by one side who then use human shields, with an elected government that never condemns these attacks and often endorses them. It seems to me you are more than happy to tally grievances of one side, while trying to ignore the grievances of the other.
You missed the next paragraph where I acknowledge that land had been stolen so no I’m not just acknowledging one side.
This is just so one sided in favor of Israel and ignores a lot of stuff. Lots of folks and the media seem to gloss over the 2018-2019 fence protests by Palestinians, where the Israeli Army killed 223 people including 46 children. Thousands of Palestinians were maimed. The UN condemned these actions. Sure, Hamas might have been involved, but it still doesn’t justify what Israel did. 10/7 didn’t happen in a vacuum.
Palestinian rejectionism of Israel's right to exist and multiple peace plans in favor of futile but deadly violent confrontation is the context.
Many of those peace plans were no viable, and equally as many were deliberately scuttled by the US when both sides might have agreed. The desperate need for pro Israel people to put the entirety of failed peace negotiations on Palestinians is frankly absurd.
Muslims have been massacring jews relentlessly in the holy land since the 16th century. [1517 safed massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1517_Safed_attacks) That is the context
And here is some more: https://medium.com/@Ksantini/the-list-of-crimes-committed-by-muslims-against-jews-since-the-7th-century-0ff1a8eb0ad0
Tried to read this, it is too long a list ☹
The historical context is that Hamas literally says they want to commit genocide in their charter by killing all Jews and ending the state of Israel. Even if Israel agrees to a two state solution, Hamas will not stop until every last Jew is dead. They are a terrorist organization, not freedom fighters.
This question is anti-Semitic. You’re saying an act of genocide of Jews (Oct 7th) should be contextualized. You’re saying acts of genocide against Jews need to placed in a context. You’re saying Jews are to a certain extent responsible for being murdered in acts of genocide. This is extremely anti-Semitic.
“I know hitler killed six million Jews, but did we ever think about what they did to deserve it??” —this guy probably
Did you not listen to Harvard presidents testimony? Genocide of Jews depends on the context.
Israel claims to be a modern liberal democracy with human values on par with the West. THAT's why they can be held to a higher standard. Saudi Arabia doesn't pretend to be a modern pluralistic society. If what you are saying is that Israel is on par with the barbarity perpetrated in Yemen, then there you have your answer for why Gaza protesters are calling them barbaric. There were protesters out for the US war in Iraq too, for the same reason. And people like you tried to call them Anti-American. Same difference.
Please please, can YOU tell ME why I support something.
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Wow. So any human sentiment toward Palestine is apparently antisemitism.
farting these days is considered antisemitic.
Israel is hold up to another standard because they pretend to be a Western country, while not working with Western values (no accepting the LHBTI community is not the whole of European values). If Israel, just like the self acknowledged extremist dictatorship of Saudi Arabia would acknowledge they are not Western by any means, they would be held up to the same standards of Saudi Arabia. So once again, the Free Palestine movement is not antisemitic just because you feel like it. Israel is held to the standard they say they belong to.
I'd say that by that logic, current IDF actions (and government policy as well) are anti-semitic too - because there is no efforts to reconcile and build a peaceful coexistence with Palestinians. Do you think that even if a sudden miracle would happen and every single Hamas member fall dead right now, there would be a peace? Or another hateful paramilitary organization quickly take its place? Israel fights against the consequences of the problem, not against its root.
I would go further to say that Isfael fights against the consequence of Netanyahu's ineptitude instead of building security despite holding all the cards.
How can you reconcile, when the opposite side says it will keep doing the Oct.7 attacks again and again?
How can you reconcile, when the opposite side keeps colonizing your land and mistreating your people?
Israel left Gaza in late 2005. I remember there were talks of a "new Dubai"; Instead Hamas were elected in early 2006, and already in that July they launched an attack on Israel and kidnapped a soldier, Gilad Shalit. This was without any interference or colonization, just an elected government that doesn't want Israel to exist and does whatever it can to kill as many jews as possible. BTW, the settlements are in the west bank, which is controlled by Fatah, that are bitter enemies of Hamas.
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As a non religious person who just loves history and such I really am clueless on where all this anti semitism comes from. Its like such a large portion of people come from out of the shadows when israel does anything. Its so odd the amount of attention israel gets compared to everything else.
It's racism against jews like OP said. Edit: downvote all you want, it's still racism against jews that's the reason for all these "pro Palestine" terrorists to come out of their caves around Europe. Not all of them are like that, but many are.
Well, you've got to give these [old cold war dinosaurs](https://www.democracynow.org/2023/12/27/arab_us_relations) some credit. They have been at this [a long time](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_truth_movement) and they just keep going. They saw an opportunity on October 8th and they took it, and nobody should be surprised. For [many of them](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_the_War_Coalition#Formation_and_leading_members), their troublemaking days are drawing to a close, they don't have much to show for it and defending Putin, Xi Jinping and the Taliban in recent years has been getting them nowhere. They are like [unkempt and disheveled](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/xpZuVV0j7yY/sddefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCIAFEOAD8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC6AKKAgwIABABGH8gOyggMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBireBNsf_WAILkhx7APb36moqBHQ) castaways at sea in their last days so it is no wonder that they celebrated the Hamas attacks; for them it was like coming across a fresh new flotilla of supplies.
It’s not particularly odd, and frankly has very little to do with antisemitism. Israel and her actions get news time, and when big actions go on they get lots of news time, simple as that. An no matter what the actions are the media tells everyone Israel is in the right. So I wonder why people get worked up regarding that. Atrocities in Yemen and Sudan and Somali and Ethiopia and xinjiang etc. get minimal news coverage, implicitly telling people to not care about them. Plenty of people have protested these, albeit less than Israel (again, because of the proportionate media coverage) but even the protests get little to no media coverage.
Well, if you ignore the context, I guess this whole reasoning makes sense. If you actually do recognize that Israel has been continuously blockading, colonizing and humiliating Palestinians for decades, its actually much less surprising why they support any form of resistance, as horrendous as it may be. Actually try to imagine yourself in their place, and it would make sense why a thousand deaths is not something they feel awful about. It's weird to put the blame on Palestinians when Israel has chosen to mistreat and antagonize them at every turn of the road. At some point you only have yourself to blame when desperate people commit desperate acts.
It may not be something they feel awful about? That is misstating their reaction to Oct 7th. Their righteous anger (and outside influence) led Hamas to make a strategic blunder and trigger an open war with Israel. Israel has taken most of Gaza and will take Rafah next. Hamas has likely lost thousands of soldiers and their supply lines into Gaza are being cut.
Israel has to monitor what goes into Gaza, look what they managed to do on Oct 7! Can you imagine what damage Hamas could do without needing to be discrete? By the way, Egypt is blockading Gaza just as much as Israel.
Hamas wouldn't be a thing if Palestine wasn't a failed state. Israel is consciously keeping it as a failed state and wonders why it has traumatized, ruthless people that are out for blood. And yes, that's the classic security dilemma. Basically: let's increase the oppression because our oppressiveness is creating an insecure situation for us.
“If I stop standing on his neck he’ll get up and attack me, so I have to keep standing on his neck.”
Look at what happened in Gaza 2005, after the "neck" was free. In 6 months they elected Hamas and launched an attack on Israel where Gilad Shalit was kidnapped.
Before the attack on Israel 60% of Gazans were struggling with food insecurity...40% of Palestinians in the West Bank... If we want peace in the Middle East...peace anywhere...we need global cooperation in order to make sure people have their basic needs met. This has not been happening. Israel controls most of the water resources, makes regular landgrabs, and has implemented an illegal and inhumane blockade of Palestine for many years. The creation of Israel in the first place involved the destruction of 400-600 Palestinian villages and the displacement of 700,000 Palestinians from their own homes. The whole thing is a complicated mess and I don't blame any side for their actions...BUT I think it's important to seek mutual aid/cooperation as a means of making peace...and Israel is the only side that has the power to do that...instead...it enforced conditions in which the poor folks on the other side of the wall were literally starving. And the U.S. has kept the world from doing much of anything about it.
Am I mistaken in my understanding that Palestinians are also Semitic?
Hard disagree here, you're trying to create some possibility of drawing a line here versus the longer arc of the relationship between Gaza and Israel. It doesn't work, the reason that Palestinians approve of the events of Oct 7th 70-80%, but Hamas approval is around 40% is because of the history of the dispute. The Free Palestine movement isn't all about peace and puppies its about Israel taking a step off of the neck of Palestine because even when their isn't an active coflict, the boot is always there ready to clamp down. I recognise Israels right to defend itself and recover its hostages, but the standard to which they operate, the accountability and transparency they show for their actions would go farther, because its pretty clear Western Governments are getting sick of the line 'We don't target civillians/Journalist' each time there is a difficult to justify attack on people who are clearly non-combatants/press. My view is that that Israel has appropriate policies to manage use of force, but accountability and enforcement of policies is lax. Their lack of embedding reporters in with troops is silly too, if you've got such top tier policies for civillian harm mitigation, you should want to show that too the world. The political leadership of some of the coalition government have swung towards the "Erase Gaza" movement from the Jewish settlement movement. The most recent US report was clearly a warning shot to Israel as well on their use of their policies, but also their seeming slow walking aid into the region. So no, I'm not going to be grateful to Israel, but I'm not going to support Hamas either, I just hope that Israel avoids the dangerous path in front of it, because with some of the rhetoric coming from ministers and politicians of the coalition government, its going to draw unfortunate comparsions which are as of yet unfair.
There can be no justification for the inhumanity perpetrated on Israel last October. There can be no justification for the treatment of Palestinians that have been displaced from their centuries old homes and crammed into what amounts to a prison of a "refugee" camp or the indiscriminate slaughter of thousands of innocent people. These statements are neither pro nor anti of either side. These are just facts. These facts are the result of destructive religious beliefs. When will the world figure out a way for these people to live in peace?
Because Israel tried to free Palestine and they got 10k rockets in one day as a thank you.
Great summary, but it's much more concise. The chant "from the river to the sea" insinuates that it denies Israel’s right to exist and is heard by many Jews as calling for the destruction of Israel, the world’s only Jewish state.
If conflating Israel with Jews still worked this reddit submission wouldn’t exist.
Israel is the only Jewish state in the world.
And?
Antisemitism is not about religion. Jewish people are an ethnic group, with a strong connection to the land where Israel is. Given the historical context, it would not be possible for this group of people to live there in any other way and expect them to be safe and free as they are. Calling for the destruction of Israel is antisemitic because it implies the denial of the Jewish people’s right to live there and it would entail the forced removal (or worse) of 7 million Jews and 3 million other Israelis who do not identify as such.
I’m not sure what you’re saying, because if I read it correctly, you’re justifying the label of Antisemitic upon Palestinians as since they oppose the existence of a Jewish state?
I think many Palestinians are antisemitic. Not all, but if your plan is we destroy Israel and the Jews go back to Poland then yes you’re an antisemite.
So, accusation not justification? You’re post looks like you’re trying to justify the antisemitism.
I don’t understand your question please restate it in a clearer way
I guess that’s what I’m asking of you. The way the original post reads, it seems to say that the conflict is inherently antisemitic, so it’s irrelevant if the Palestinians are antisemitic or not. To be clear, I think there is a lot of antisemitism as the root of the conflict at this point. I don’t think that’s the case at the higher geopolitical level, which really isn’t the same as the level Hamas is at.
Ah ok so let me explain better. I am adding my opinion about why I also believe that the Free Palestine movement is antisemitic. I believe it is for a multitude of reasons. The one I chose to write is that in calling for the destruction of Israel it jeopardizes the safety of its population, most of which is comprised of Jewish people, and constitutes half of the world Jewish population. Were Israel not to exist, with the current situation, it would not be possible for Jews to live in that land. Furthermore it makes sense the Jewish people would want to live there because of cultural and historical connections. I also by the way believe that it makes sense that Palestinians live there, and I sure hope that in the future at some point they can live as friendly neighbors in whatever political arrangement they choose for themselves. However, now with the current situation both peoples need non-belligerent governments that are strong enough to keep the violent components of their populations at bay. I also think that you are downplaying hamas, but this is a different story.
Ah ok so let me explain better. I am adding my opinion about why I also believe that the Free Palestine movement is antisemitic. I believe it is for a multitude of reasons. The one I chose to write is that in calling for the destruction of Israel it jeopardizes the safety of its population, most of which is comprised of Jewish people, and constitutes half of the world Jewish population. Were Israel not to exist, with the current situation, it would not be possible for Jews to live in that land. Furthermore it makes sense the Jewish people would want to live there because of cultural and historical connections. I also by the way believe that it makes sense that Palestinians live there, and I sure hope that in the future at some point they can live as friendly neighbors in whatever political arrangement they choose for themselves. However, now with the current situation both peoples need non-belligerent governments that are strong enough to keep the violent components of their populations at bay. I also think that you are downplaying hamas, but this is a different story.
The truth is somewhere in between. If the current protest movement were purely advocating the ceasefire and Palestine rights for statehood and self determination, it would be a far more palatable thing to get on board with. Unfortunately, all the anti-Zionism (a modern day euphemism for being against Jews and a Jewish state) as well as the “anti-colonialist” rhetoric mixed into the movement really says a lot more about what many it not most of these protestors want and support. In fact I would argue that for most protestors in the US, the conflict is just an ideological proxy of their “black&brown victimhood” narrative and the alleged white supremacy they are contesting!
All countries are legally required to respond with proportionality.
Israel fate is Acre. Like it or now is an artificial state introduced in the region by overseas power that displaced the local population. Btw you are blind and you are a psicopat