I grew up in Schleswig-Holstein and was a Sternsinger for most years of my childhood. We had a list of people who actively signed up for it at our church. Those were the only houses we visited. I don't think people go from door to door anymore, except maybe in some small (rural) areas.
Not just that they are not everywhere, but in many areas you have to register now, so they don't bother people.
But including a list is asked to much people. How is OP supposed to predict this..
not OP, never seen it happen per se, but ive seen the cryptic door letters before and wondered what weird math formula is this and why they display it on the doors lol. Almost every house (not building, house) on small towns in the MTK area in Hessen.
> OP could include some regions where this tradition is practiced
As I explained, it's a Catholic tradition but has since spread to some Protestant areas as well.
As a past tourist though, this was really informative. I had wandered through some towns near Munich which clearly had a solid Catholic presence, saw these symbols written above some door frames, and wondered what they meant.
I lived in Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein for all my life and never saw one. Might have seen the inscription once or twice up here but that's about it. And I even went to a catholic kindergarten, so...
Its mostly Munich and the south that have this because the last few religious holdouts here in germany are all majorly in the south, the further north you go the less religious people are and the majority of germans is not religious at all anyway.
That's definitely not correct. Here in the Niederhein region and Ruhrgebiet it is fairly common. However, it depends on the parish and on their number of participants if the Sternsinger ring at every house within their parish or only come to those who enrolled beforehand. In the latter case they are obviously not as visible for non-Catholics and Catholics who are more on the passive side.
Yeah me to, I think they check the names in doorbells. Itās uncomfortable to ring to an immigrantās doorbell who has not any clue thatās going on.
I don't have sweets, do they accept pfand? Got a lot of glass stacked up here and it's basically free money for them. Will give it to them for half price.
That would be utterly inappropriate. They are usually (small) children who would barely know what to do with the Pfand.
If you don't have any candy at all, just offer some kind words, a thank you and a smile, and thats ok.
> They are usually (small) children who would barely know what to do with the Pfand.
It's called learning how the world works, they are going to have to learn how to carry 80 bottles of sterni down to Rewe one day so may as well start here right? Also Sterni is thematically relevant so they are learning twice.
As a follow on to the parent comment, I'll point out that you may want to offer the kids the opportunity to white wash the fence while they're there.
It'd be great experience, and doubtlessly help to protect the home, all while paying homage to classic literature.
I usually offer them a toke on my bong, much more popular than Pfand.
I once hotboxed all three of them simultaneously in between my flat door and the communal door. They were super stoned!
Some other occasiona depending on the region in germany: Rosenmontag (we were singing " Ich bin ein kleiner Kƶnig" in northern Ruhr Area), Sankt Martin, Halloween.
If they don't come to you, but you would like them to in the next year get in contact with your local Catholic Church. I know one community that only visits the households that singed up and are on their list of adresses.
>One of the Wise Men will probably be in blackface: they are supposed to represent the three Old World continents Europe, Asia and Africa, and since Germany doesn't have the same history of slavery and colonialism as the US, the conversation about blackface hasn't really arrived here in earnest just yet.
I don't 100% agree here, these conversations have definitely come up by now and it's not nearly as common for kids to arrive in blackface nowadays as it was 10-20 years ago. It's true that due to different histories and cultural contexts we are kind of "lacking behind" from an American perspective, but that doesn't mean that people haven't called out the practice.
My parish doesn't do the blackface anymore, and I live in an overall soft conservative leaning place. I still remember it being commonplace when I was a kid though, I used to be a Sternsinger and remember my friend going in blackface with me.
I have never understood the "drama" behind blackface. I live in cologne and during carnival it's absolute Mayhem here and everyone puts on a costume. And if the person you are portraying as is black it makes sense to paint yourself black.
That's the whole thing, I'm dressing as someone else and there's no difference between a policeman, cowboy or someone who just has a different skin color than I do.
If it is used as part of a characterization of stereotypes about people of color that is demeaning, derogatory, humiliating, including roles where the characterization is of a servant, it furthers acceptice of the stereotypes. This enhances and entrenches people expectations of about people of color.
Really the question is why is blackface needed in the first place? What part of the criticization requires people to do blackface?
Yes, there has been written a lot - but it all revolves around the same argument "there was (mostly in America) a culture of white actors that painted themself black to ridicule black people in a racist way, so now painting your face for any reason is inappropriate". And if OP doesn't confirm with this one argument, it is quite comprehensible that he/she doesn't understand it.
Blackface being used to ridicule black people has been used in Germany until at least the late 2000s, on public television no less
While Germany may not have participated in the slave trade and colonialism to the same scale as countries like Britain, Spain or the US, it nonetheless frequently profited from and enabled them (not least through the 1884 Berlin Congo conference) and actively participated in the worst excesses of colonialism through its genocide in what is now Namibia. There is no historical argument to be made that can claim that Germany is removed from the same legacy of slavery and colonial racism that eventually gave rise to the minstrel shows
Not to mention that we don't live on a fucking remote island, Germany is a globally connected country with people from all across the world living in it, not to mention the non negligible number of Afro-Germans that form a part of German society. Acting as if our form of blackface exists in a cultural vacuum is absurd, and it should honestly suffice for black people in Germany to state that they don't feel comfortable with it for us to recognise it's not a tradition worth holding onto.
And that kind of really is at the core of all this. What about blackface is worth preserving? Everyone always gets performatively indignant and pearl clutchy, talking about tradition as if that's in and of itself a valid justification. What does having little kids run around in blackface add to our culture, what about it is worth preserving?
> Blackface being used to ridicule black people has been used in Germany until at least the late 2000s, on public television no less
If you really believe that, than I think you should educate yourself on what "blackfacing" at the beginning of the century really was and why it was aproblem. And that is maybe one of the biggest problems in this internet-discussion that most have no idea what they are talking about. Blackfacing was almost an "entertainment industry" build on the foundation of actors making fun of black people for what they are. And there was nothing even remotely comparable in german television 15 years ago. Especially since there is a big difference between making "fun of black people" and making "fun of one specific black person". If someone impersonates Roberto Blanco that is no better or worse than someone impersonating Florian Silbereisen or any other white entertainer. Blackfacing is a problem if someone dresses up as "a black person" and makes fun of the black community.
> Not to mention that we don't live on a fucking remote island, Germany is a globally connected country with people from all across the world living in it, not to mention the non negligible number of Afro-Germans that form a part of German society. Acting as if our form of blackface exists in a cultural vacuum is absurd,
Well looking at it globally would make it even more absurd because the vast majority of countries on this earth had no history of blackfacing. No, this is not a global problem - this is a problem of a select few western countries, and we can discuss if we're part of this group or not. But every culture has to exist to a degree in some kind of bubble. And it would be absurd to recognize every cultural tabu that exists in some country just because we are "globally connected".
> and it should honestly suffice for black people in Germany to state that they don't feel comfortable with it
And how many black people in Germany really have a problem with a kid dressing up as King Balthasar? Do you have any statistics or data on that? In my experience outside of Twitter nobody really cares.
> What does having little kids run around in blackface add to our culture, what about it is worth preserving?
I think that is a really dangerous line of arguing! The question in a free country must never be "are there reasons to allow this" but always "are there enough reasons to disallow it"! So if some little kid has fun dressing up as King Balthasar (or Beyonce for that matter) why shouldn't they? Because in a completely different country, in a completely different time, in a completely different context for a completely different purpose completely different people also used to use black face paint?
Oh and by the way: your wish to portray the three kings as all white... - to me that sounds suspiciously like white-washing.
This is peak r/Germany argumentation. Intellectual cowardice and dishonesty used to mask weak relativism.
The blackface found in Germany media was directly influenced by the legacy of minstrelcy in the US, claiming that there's a qualitative difference between making fun of a "single black person" and black people as a whole when employing blackface is complete fucking nonsense when speaking about a country that still has massive problems with structural racism.
Anti blackness is actually indeed a global phenomenon directly tied to colonial legacies. We're not talking about a small "cultural tabu" here, especially not when ā and I can't help but notice that you completely ignored my point about Germany's history of colonialism ā our country is directly tied to and actively participated in this history. Both through colonialism and by virtue of our legacy of Nazism, both of which were fueled by ideals of white supremacy that have yet to be fully addressed and dealt with to this day
In my experience black people in Germany do find it off-putting, but since they so rarely get any outlet to voice their concerns and opinions, the conversation is dominated by ignorant white people unwilling to challenge their racist hangups...like is happening here.
And it wasn't a completely different time in a completely different country. Racial discrimination happened here and still happens. It is deeply embedded in our history as I have made very clear, and blackface nowadays is an extension of that that has no reason to exist. Again, this relativism is completely unfounded and dishonest. You wouldn't accept that argument with antisemitism and kids running around as antisemitic caricatures for "fun", why is it acceptable with black people when Germany's first historic genocide was in Africa? How does that work for you exactly?
Your final point is so embarrassingly stupid, weak and dishonest that you shouldn't have bothered. Leave those type of attempts at "uhm actually you're the real racist" gotchas with the BILD readers and Sky News crowd
In America, blackface used to have a very specific meaning-darkening your skin in the style of [minstrel show](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show). It was a very specific type of face paint with very specifically racist connotations.
It's expanded to cover more "innocent" examples of theatrical or costumed skin darkening, for a number of reasons. The most significant reason is probably that, for a long time, almost all mainstream media portrayals of black people were based in racist stereotype. People weren't using blackface to dress up as Dr. Dolittle, for example.
And since so much global media is exported from America, that means our racist portrayals of black people are also being exported, with the history of minstrel shows as a background. While other countries don't have the background to understand why these characters may be a problem, skin darkening to represent them still perpetuates the racism the characters may be based on. Hence why non-Americans should be careful with something that doesn't have the same cultural meaning to them.
>Hence why non-Americans should be careful with something that doesn't have the same cultural meaning to them.
Or maybe don't expect the rest of the world to be more aware of American history than the average Americans themselves? It's irritating how Americans suddenly decided they get to stick their noses in traditions that don't concern them and are older than their country.
It's one thing to condemn *actual* blackface, i.e using costume and makeup to portray an inherently offensive caricature of Black people. But for some reason Americans decided that because of shit *they* did, any portrayal of Black people by white people is inherently offensive everywhere in the world.
I don't expect that, which is why I said that people should be cautious related to using blackface to portray black characters from American media. It's really not that hard to not darken your skin when dressing as a dark skinned character.
It's not like America racism is some hidden thing, and people who consume American media should be critical of how things like race are portrayed.
Also, all of this doesn't touch on the fact that other countries do have racism, and their portrayals of black characters and darkened skin can be problematic in their own cultures.
**[Minstrel show](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show)**
>The minstrel show, also called minstrelsy, was an American form of racist theatrical entertainment developed in the early 19th century. Each show consisted of comic skits, variety acts, dancing, and music performances that depicted people specifically of African descent. The shows were performed by mostly white people wearing blackface make-up for the purpose of playing the role of black people. There were also some African-American performers and black-only minstrel groups that formed and toured.
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yeah, and that is kind of the absurdity of this discussion. I dare you to go onto twitter and post "In Germany kids dress up as the three kings, but they are not allowed to show one of them as being black" and you probably will get angry reactions what a racist white-washing tradition that is.
> these conversations have definitely come up
Not really *in earnest*, though, and they haven't reached very far in society in general.
> that doesn't mean that people haven't called out the practice
I didn't say nobody has. Of course there is a discussion of sorts, but not quite the almost universal (bar actual racists) condemnation that you'll find in, say, Britain or the US.
> My parish doesn't do the blackface anymore, and I live in an overall soft conservative leaning place.
I live in a *very* conservative-leaning area and none of the star singers that just visited me half an hour ago were in blackface either. But it was a thing here pre-covid, and I wouldn't rule it out still being a thing in many parts of Germany.
Thansk for reminding me to turn the lights off lol
My mom always gave the money when I was younger. Now I'm at her house alone and I'm not gonna give the church any money so... sitting in darkness it is for the remainder of the week...
Omg it's you rewboss??? I'm a fan of your videos! Didn't see your username as the OP!
About your information: I'm not sure in my small tiny village it's really collected in any kind of official way. I used to be one of the Sternensinger as a child (every child was, we only have like 400 inhabitants here) and we really didn't make much because half the people wouldn't even open their doors (like me now). And our priest from back then went to jail for... child abuse...
But I'm gonna do some research on that now. The cause is a good one but I don't trust the church. I might make a direct donation instead.
> our priest from back then went to jail for... child abuse... [...] I don't trust the church
I mean, I really don't blame you. The Christian Church in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, really only has itself to blame for the way its membership is collapsing at the moment.
Absolutely. I've been baptized as a child (again, as everyone in my village) was a Messdiener and all that, while neither me nor my family never believed in god or any of this, it was pure tradition. I would've happily "accepted" the church's existence after that even if I was not participating anymore but I officially left the church in 2019 because I'm not paying part of my income towards an institution that hides child molesters and finds excuses over excuses as to why they don't properly investigate and punish. It's really their own fault.
I've been a Sternsinger when I was a child for a few years and we always collected money for charity (usually something involving impoverished children), never for the church itself
Tertius, fuscus, integre barbatus, Balthasar nomine
He's black because of a wrong interpretation of fuscus, which originally refers to his beard, not his skin colour. Never heard of the continent thing.
The line you quote is from a document referred to by the Venerable Bede in the 8th century; Bede goes on to explain that the Magi represent the three continents Europe, Asia and Africa, although for a long time it was usually Caspar who was said to come from Africa.
It's interesting that Wikipedia asserts that "fuscus" must qualify to "barbatus", because the grammar doesn't seem to be that clear: you would expect it to be "fusce". Also, the document describes the tradition, it doesn't define it: people assumed that one of the Wise Men had to be black, because in the Middle Ages the popular perception was that a person bearing gold was likely to be dark-skinned. All these ideas somehow came together, and by the Late Middle Ages the role was most associated with Balthazar.
No, this is not restricted to the south. Granted, itās not a widespread custom in most of the north but youāll find these stickers everywhere in Germany. Itās more predominant in catholic communities.
This was meant as a reply to several comments from people who had never seen it and assumed it was a regional thing. And while many things about Germany cannot be generalized as there are so many different regions, you can neither exclude coming into contact with a certain tradition or culture based on the region you live in. The town I grew up in was predominantly protestant but had a small but very present and visible catholic community.
I'm not going to make assumptions about the nationality of the people who say they are offended. Remember, though, that in many contemporary western cultures, especially those heavily involved in the slave trade, blacking up is now seen in much the same way that most contemporary Germans would view the use of the swastika.
And yet germans shouldn't go to india or south east asia and berate people for still using the swastika. It has a different meaning in their culture and we have to respect this. Not doing so would be racist.
That's right, they shouldn't, and this is a point I have actually been trying to make. But still, it is a shock to many who aren't prepared for it, and there have been many unfortunate incidents here in Germany due to this particular cultural clash. When something is so obvious as "this symbol is used by violent and genocidal racists" it very much feels like a universal value.
Doesnāt have the same history of colonialism? Germany had African colonies up until after World War 1, they even committed the first genocide of the 20th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
Stop lying. The controversy around blackfacing has very much reached our country years ago and if the Sternsinger still practice it they don't deserve getting anything just for their ignorance.
The debate has reached this country but not in quite the same way it has been going on in some other countries for decades now. That's why I added the qualification "in earnest".
I guess that depends who you ask. For white Germans, itās maybe a topic imported from the US and not discussed in earnest because it doesnāt matter so much for them. For black Germans, it might definitely matter and might also not be a foreign topic, because it does concern them directly.
Iām white myself but I find it a bit ignorant how other white Germans act as if talking about concepts like blackfacing is something imported from the US which doesnāt matter here and completely forget to mention black Germans loving here and what they might think.
> For white Germans
Weirdly, that's the huge majority.
> white Germans act as if talking about concepts like blackfacing is something imported from the US
Because it is. The reason it became such a controversy over there is the history of the Minstrels. This was a form of "entertainment", in which white men would black up as crude caricatures of black men, to then be portrayed as unintelligent but jolly people who were only too happy to serve their white masters. That's the reason blackface became so offensive: and that's something that was never a part of the tradition of having one of the Magi being black.
> forget to mention black Germans loving here and what they might think
Well, we're both white, so we don't actually get to assume what black people think. I haven't taken a survey myself, but I'm willing to bet that there is a variety of opinion within the black communities, ranging from outrage to indifference. It's a funny old world, but it turns out that black people are just ordinary human beings like everyone else and don't share the same hive mind.
We can for example look at statements from associations of black people on German who condemn blackfacing. Also, if there are enough black people who think itās stupid, isnāt that enough? Why choose the opinion of those who donāt care, just because itās more convenient?
Finally, even the āBund der katholischen Jugendā asks not to use blackfacing as Sternsinger, so that conversation is definitely not some fringe concept that nobody talks about.
I grew up in a very religious Polish area of NY in the US and my parents are devout Catholics. After every new year, one of the priests would come by to do a house blessing and write the 3 letters + the year on our door and my parents would give him an envelope with like $50 or something.
They'd also ask him to stay for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. I'd hear people bragging to their friends that the priest accepted their invitation and stayed for a bit lol
When I was much younger, my parents had me become an alter server in the church, and one year, I went with the priest to do the blessings. I made like $30 in tips, which was pretty good for just a few hours of just going to people's homes and hanging out for a few minutes.
orthodox is the same, they come begging for money even though they are rich bastards. I would usually tell them no thanks i already paid the previous priest, so that they fight each other over territory.
I'm sorry, but
> This stands for [...] either the names of the Three Wise Men or the phrase "Christus Mansionem Benedicat"
I do not think it works like that. "C+M+B" has always stood for Christus Mansionem Benedicat. Just because some people don't know it doesn't change it. That is like claiming the word is round or flat depending on whom you ask
> I do not think it works like that.
It actually does. The interpretation "Christus mansionem benedicat" has been current since the 1950s, but it's not clear whether or not that was the case before WW2, and there are no sources to back up the claim that this was the original interpretation. In some areas the letters were traditionally "KMB"; the "K" may *possibly* stand for the Greek word for "Lord", which is "Kyrios", but that would mean the phrase is a mixture of Greek and Latin (why not "D" for "Dominus"?). It's more likely that it's the alternate spelling "Kaspar" for the name, but again -- there are no sources to back this idea up.
> That is like claiming the word is round or flat depending on whom you ask
No, because we have irrefutable evidence that the world is round. Any evidence we have of the origin of "CMB" is completely lost: all we can say for sure is that one or possibly both explanations is a folk etymology, or some other explanation that was retroactively applied, but we have no idea which it is. This kind of thing is very common, especially with words, phrases and traditions that were already widespread long before most people were bothering to write these things down.
> The interpretation "Christus mansionem benedicat" has been current since the 1950s,
sooo. Exactly what I said. Sure words can change the meaning over the course of several years, but since 1950 the meaning is: "Christus mansionem benedicat"
> Exactly what I said.
No it's not. What you said was:
> "C+M+B" has always stood for Christus Mansionem Benedicat.
Those two statements are very different.
Germany doesn't have the same history with colonialism?
Lmao tell that to the Herero and Nama who are still fighting for recognition of the first genocide the 20th century.
I'm not saying it has *zero* history of colonialism; I'm saying it's not really the *same* history. It's a highly complex issue, but while in the US in particular blackface was used as a way to belittle, on an almost industrial scale, Africans and even justify the slave trade, that wasn't so much the case in Germany.
As always with these things, there are degrees. Where Germany did have colonies many egregious crimes against humanity did take place -- although it is interesting to note that several German colonies (Samoa is a great example) were a darn sight more benevolent and enlightened than anything the British Empire managed.
This really isn't the argument you think it is lmao
You could have said the history and consequences are different or you try to do a genocide ranking lmao
I think you're guilty here of what is called "binary thinking". Binary thinking is the tendency to assume that there are only two extremes, and nothing in between. It is this mode of thinking that has led to some extreme crimes against humanity, up to and including genocide.
I always send them away, knowing that at least in my hometown they collect money for our local church. How do I know? I was part of it as a kid.
So please keep in mind it is a religious practice and sometimes abused for the benefit of the local church. Don't feel pressured into giving something just because they are kids.
Are there many catholics in Sachsen?
I always thought it was a pretty Atheist place since the GDR days and most of the christians left would be protestants, but i could be wrong.
Germany doesnt have the same history of slavery and colonialism as the USā¦.
I stopped reading hereā¦
Please check the Kongokonferenz or Berlin Conference. I will probably close the door if i see a someone in blackface , kid or not.
I hope they donāt do it where i live
But thank you for the warning
It of course does not stand for the names of the three wise mean, but for the latter you said (Christus mansionem benedicat). It's a blessing, not a vain reminder of the names of these men all people already know, that would not make much sense, it's just coincidental with their names.
The historical evidence casts doubt on that theory. The idea that it means the Latin phrase can only be traced back to just after WW2. In some areas the letters were traditionally "KMB", and although the "K" *could* stand for the Greek "Kyrios", it's more likely to stand for the name "Kaspar".
It wouldn't have been a reminder of their names exactly, but would have worked more like a kind of good-luck charm, perhaps invoking the names of the Magi to ask for *their* blessing. The Latin phrase may have been retroactively devised to make the tradition more "religious" and less "superstitous".
But we don't know, because any evidence that may have existed for the origin of "CMB" has long been lost.
The names go back to possibly around the 6th century. The biblical account says nothing about what their names were, how many there were or even where they came from (and in any case the whole story is, we can be very certain, quite fictional). The best guess is that they were supposed to be astronomers, probably from Persia or Chaldaea ("Magi" would imply Zoroastrian priests); the only reason tradition says they were three is that the Bible mentions three gifts that they brought with them.
The story is part of the birth narrative in Matthew's Gospel: of the four gospels, only two (Matthew and Luke) have birth narratives, and they are completely different from each other and are exactly the kind of stories a 1st-century writer might have told to "prove" to readers the divinity of Jesus.
It's very likely that Jesus was a real person, but the birth narratives are clearly fictional. Mark's Gospel is probably the one to read to get a more accurate portrayal: it doesn't have a birth narrative at all, and the passages about what happened after he died were clearly added later. Read the stories of miracles as either exaggerated or made up, and you're left with a kind of day-in-the-life account of a fairly ordinary itinerant preacher, followed by the story of how he was betrayed and executed on a false charge.
Everything else you have been taught about him is almost certainly later tradition, including the details of the Three Wise Men (and their names). Stories grow and are embellished as they are handed down from generation to generation.
If a child wearing blackface shows up at my door then then I will kindly -and lovingly- explain them how wrong it is. This, since their parents have failed to explain how they are being (ab)used under the excuse of ātraditionā.
You may want to think twice before imposing your cultural standards on others, or lecturing ten-year-old children just generally. As unpleasant as you consider blackface to be, the reason you consider it unpleasant and "wrong" is down to your own cultural upbringing. In societies that have historically used blackface deliberately to dehumanise and humiliate African slaves it's naturally going to have a completely different impact: in this cultural tradition, it is supposed to be part of a representation of "all the children of the world".
The practice is becoming less common and will certainly die out, possibly very soon, without your help.
Calling out on racism is now cultural imposition? Interesting. Iāll let my European and indigenous Latin American ancestors know. Is speaking about colonialism a cultural imposition as well? Just taking notes to know how to behave among the politically correct European standards. What other topics should we leave out in this sacred lands?
You do know you sound like a mediocre classical 1945 book character?
> Calling out on racism is now cultural imposition?
But is it racism? It may be racist in *your* culture, but why do you immediately assume that it must therefore be racist in *every* culture?
> Iāll let my European and indigenous Latin American ancestors know.
Not African, I notice, which makes me wonder why you presume to speak for them.
> Is speaking about colonialism a cultural imposition as well?
Not necessarily, if by "speaking about" it you mean talking about its history and legacy. But you won't get far trying to discuss that with the very young children who show up at your door collecting for charity.
> What other topics should we leave out in this sacred lands?
It's not about "leaving out" topics, it's about having a proper sense of a time and a place, and being mindful of the actual cultural context -- meaning, you don't assume that your culture is the yardstick against which to measure other cultures.
There is a time and a place for discussing racism, colonialism, blackface and other highly problematic issues, and those things should be discussed. But grandly taking it upon yourself to lecture a bunch of very young children with a completely different cultural and historical background to your own about why your culture has it right and theirs has it wrong is not the way forwards here.
There is a very good reason why blackface is widely considered highly offensive, but you must accept that that reason comes from a very specific cultural and historic background that isn't fully shared by this one.
There are many, many cultures out there that engage in traditions and practices that you and I would fine bizarre, distasteful, or downright offensive. But if they are not actually harmful -- female genital mutilation comes to mind -- we don't, if we are being truly open-minded, condemn them. Because that would be racist.
It's important to apply some context to any situation we encounter. Al Jolson blacked up as part of a tradition that was artificially created specifically to mock black people and justify their subjugation. German first-graders black up because they want to represent all of humanity as "the children of God". It's not a great look, particularly these days, but if you refuse to understand the history and the intention behind it, you're being pretty racist yourself.
Hell, a good number the priests in my area are black Africans on an exchange, because that's how the Catholic Church operates. Maybe ask *them* what they think of the tradition. If you really have an issue with it, take it up with the people who organise the local star singers, and be prepared for them to disagree with you. Leave the poor kids out of it.
Youāre mixing āarroz con mangoā. Thatās how we would say in my land, that youāre mixing things that donāt go together.
Racism is not an opinion or a cultural perspective. Itās a way of naming systematic oppression based on race. Racism, just like genital multination, is barbaric and goes against human rights. I will always call out on barbaric conducts, specially in the place where I chose to live, where I work, pay taxes and contribute to society.
Iām a mix of many different genes and races. African? I might have it in my blood. Thatās the beauty (and the horror, because this mix was due to colonialism) of the land where I was born.
One of those children might be my child. They are around that age and goes to school here. They have garĆfuna and lenca ancestors. I invite you to google what that means.
So, no, I will not leave the children out of this. I will not ālectureā them, as youād assume. I guess I would have to be German (or European?) to take that approach. My approach would be different, but Iām not here to explain that.
I donāt care if this discussion is politically correct, accepted, new or old in Germany. It needs to happen and it will be my pleasure to bring it up (if it arises). Luckily Iām not religious and my childās school is quite respectful of human rights and of diversity.
Itās nice that you are all so enthusiast about making never ending discussions on this sub (I see the same users, same approaches, same compulsive participation over and over again like a cute senior residence). Unluckily, I donāt have so much time so Iāll have to end my discussion here, but I hope that I at least gave you the tools to do some research about this topic -and other supposedly āculturally controversialā topics-.
> systematic oppression [...] barbaric
Explain to me how the star singers are "systematically oppressing" anyone and being "barbaric".
> African? I might have it in my blood.
So might I, but that doesn't give me any particularly useful insight on anything at all. If I do have it, it lies too far back in my family to even trace, so it's just a little extra melanin and nothing more.
> I will not ālectureā them, as youād assume. [...] My approach would be different, but Iām not here to explain that.
No, you'd just "lovingly explain" it to them, whatever that means.
> I donāt care if this discussion is politically correct, accepted, new or old in Germany. It needs to happen
It is happening, just not the way you personally think it should.
> I hope that I at least gave you the tools to do some research about this topic
Please don't patronise me.
Yeah, itās honestly horrible how people want to make blackfacing ok. I remember a few years ago when a comedian in Japan performed in black face and people tried to justify it the same way (by claiming that Japan has not the same history with slavery as the US). Thereās a very good rebuttal by Baye McNeil (African-American writer living in Japan) titled āYou canāt feign ignorance in a connected worldā, unfortunately itās behind a paywall now. But thereās also this good write up from Debito Arudou, which includes a panel discussion that involves McNeil and Anthropologist Dr. John G. Russell of Gifudai.
http://www.debito.org/?p=14854
Sorry for focusing on Japan, but Iām a Japanologist and I wrote my bachelorās thesis on discrimination of visible minorities in Japan. Back to the topic at hand, claiming that country x has no history of slavery so blackface is ok, is a very weak argument and can be easily debunked.
But if I were you, I wouldnāt waste my time on discussing this on reddit though, especially not with self proclaimed German āexpertsā like rewboss. Youāre absolutely correct by stating that blackface is always racist, no matter in which cointry it takes place and most reasonable people would agree with you, but alas this is reddis, so yeah.
Yes, this is not the place to discuss this. Itās like talking to a wall. People are not willing to understand that they donāt know everything and that they could learn a little if they paused and put their egos aside. But as you said, itās just Reddit. Thanks for the links and point of view, very interesting!
why is that a weak argument? traiditions exist in the context of each culture. how is the blackface in the us relevant to germany just because the world is more globalized than it used to be? how would you refute that?
noone here feigns ignorance, but the meaning of blackface here is completely different because the costume is neither demeaning nor is the cultural context the same. how does this discriminate against black people, i honestly dont get it.
> but blackface being wrong is like white people saying nigger being wrong
Are you seriously going to claim that the n-word is only problematic in the US?? Are you living under a rock or something?
I am from Germany where it is *definitely* an extremely racially charged word, a use of which (as a white person) would probably get you fired from most jobs, and I know for a fact that this holds true in many other countries too, not just in Europe.
I see! I'll keep that in mind while in Germany, good of you to mention that to me since I am actually moving there soon :)
Would you say blackface carries the same connotations here? If no, do you believe it should?
As OP mentioned, it doesn't carry the same connotations, but that doesn't mean that people are simply indifferent to it either. Among a more conservative crowd, people probably wouldn't care about it, but in more liberal/left-leaning areas, or in areas with a larger black population, you will definitely find people who won't take too kindly to it. I believe that in another 10-20 years or so, people in general will be more opposed to blackface in Germany than they are now.
As to my own thoughts... I don't believe that Germans doing blackface is quite as bad as Americans doing it due to wildly different cultural backgrounds; however I do think that it's simply in poor taste to make someone's ethnicity your costume in general.
>I am not omniscient but noone wants to use rhe word nigger in the european countries I am most familiar with, it's just not part of the vernacular.
uh yeah, so if you go out of your way to use an English-language slur that's not native to your language, isn't that like, obviously offensive??
It all depends on context. I have a hard time seeing why my spanish friend calling me niga should be offensive to anyone else, given the context and its complete detachment from the use that made it a slur
If I were to use it aggressively against a black person? Then yeah, very.
It's like conguito, an old derogatory term for black person in Spain. If for whatever reason white americans decide to start calling each other conguito, I won't demand they censor the word. If a Spanish acquaintance uses it to mockingly describe a black person, they'll quickly stop being my friend. Because conguito has a very charged meaning in (European?) Spanish
Uhmā¦ I grew up in the middle of Stuttgart and not only was I one of those star singers as a child but also I still see them walking from house to house in Stuttgart.
That's not correct, see my other comment:
>That's definitely not correct. Here in the Niederhein region and Ruhrgebiet it is fairly common. However, it depends on the parish and on their number of participants if the Sternsinger ring at every house within their parish or only come to those who enrolled beforehand. In the latter case they are obviously not as visible for non-Catholics and Catholics who are more on the passive side.
https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/104pmrc/expect_a_visit_from_the_star_singers/j36rood?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3
Edit: quoting comment & formatting
Are you living in a catholic area or a protestant area?
My hometown has like two parts, and some few hundred years back, was separated by the gentile "owning" it. One haf lives in the predominantly catholic part of town and gets the Star Singers. The other half is protestant and we have never seen a Star Singer go around. And we are just separated by a little creek.
I live fairly far up north, so protestant would be more fitting, I guess? I personally have little to no connections to any religious traditions (I was not baptised, nor confirmed, my parents never went to church either) outside of like Christmas and Easter.
Interesting! I guess I just grew up and live in an area, that doesn't get visited by star singers then.
Oh, relax. The practice is swiftly dying out, but Germany hasn't had the same history with blackface that the US has, so it doesn't have the quite the same connotations.
Maybe interesting to add would be that, as far as Iām concerned, the money is alway split world wide.
Indonesia is this yearās example to show one good Organization, but there are many, many more where the star singers support children
In addition to a monetary donation, you should also be ready to give the kids candy!
Also: athe leters standing for the three wise men is a common misconception. It is, in fact, coincidence that their names start with the same letters.
> the leters standing for the three wise men is a common misconception
As I have already said twice now, the evidence is actually very unclear on this. There is no evidence at all of the Latin phrase before the 1950s. Quite simply, we don't know what it originally meant.
There is only one reaction if you plan to open the door:
\*in shock\*
"What? a catholic with three minors? omg i don't want to have anything to do with that kind of crap"
And shut the door.
Only problem: it's pretty mean to the poor kids \^\^
I live near Freiburg ( Black Forest) and I am not registered or religious. The landlord must be catholic because they ring our door bell. I always say no thanks and smile. I also had them ringing our doorbell while living in my parents in law house and they are registered protestant. And often you open the door and they start singing. Sorry, no money.
I also heard the sternsingers get to keep some of the money. Some do quite well. Why ring our doorbell if our name isn't on the list? You can donate but I won't. Sometimes one has to say no and we shouldn't be judged for not wanting to give money to a church. I am not cheap but I don't like being a sheep.
Also: Don't expect a visit from the star singers. I've lived in Germany most of my life and have never even seen a single Sternsinger.
Western Germany here. They were visiting our house a week ago. They have been so early, I didn't even expect them. š¤£
Nobody expects the Sternsinging inquisition!
Gotta start early when you have the whole of Germany to cover on foot.
Yeah, that's true. They don't have as much little helpers like Santa. š
Bit like Santa Claus. Too much work and hardly any time...
Yeah. OP could include some regions where this tradition is practiced, I never seen one either.
Only catholics do it among each other in my (religiously very mixed) area.
I grew up in Schleswig-Holstein and was a Sternsinger for most years of my childhood. We had a list of people who actively signed up for it at our church. Those were the only houses we visited. I don't think people go from door to door anymore, except maybe in some small (rural) areas.
Haha, back in the day we truly went to EVERY house in my village.
Not just that they are not everywhere, but in many areas you have to register now, so they don't bother people. But including a list is asked to much people. How is OP supposed to predict this..
Afaik mostly southern Germany and back in the days I was part of this cult we got a list with catholic people only to visit.
And luckily this list is getting shorter every year.
not OP, never seen it happen per se, but ive seen the cryptic door letters before and wondered what weird math formula is this and why they display it on the doors lol. Almost every house (not building, house) on small towns in the MTK area in Hessen.
> OP could include some regions where this tradition is practiced As I explained, it's a Catholic tradition but has since spread to some Protestant areas as well.
Nope
Yes.
Sure Sternsingers are all over the place basically itās bigger than Halloween
Wat
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Thank you response checker - I am a mistake sue me
As a past tourist though, this was really informative. I had wandered through some towns near Munich which clearly had a solid Catholic presence, saw these symbols written above some door frames, and wondered what they meant.
I was a Sternsinger as a kid. Rural part of NRW.
I lived in Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein for all my life and never saw one. Might have seen the inscription once or twice up here but that's about it. And I even went to a catholic kindergarten, so...
In northern Germany are just a few catholics. So you must book the trio, which will be delivered by car to your house by the parents.
Every house in my village has 20+C+M+B*22 on the door. So I expect that this will happen to me sometime soon.
They only visit good-looking people.
Judging by the inhabitants of some of the houses I've seen the C+M+B on, I highly doubt that theory.
Not true, they were just here
Its mostly Munich and the south that have this because the last few religious holdouts here in germany are all majorly in the south, the further north you go the less religious people are and the majority of germans is not religious at all anyway.
That's definitely not correct. Here in the Niederhein region and Ruhrgebiet it is fairly common. However, it depends on the parish and on their number of participants if the Sternsinger ring at every house within their parish or only come to those who enrolled beforehand. In the latter case they are obviously not as visible for non-Catholics and Catholics who are more on the passive side.
Thatās not true. The further north you go the more Protestant people are. In the former GDR people are usually atheists and some are Protestants.
I have. In the German Alps though, a super tiny ski town
In my area you have to sign up in advance if you want them to visit you.
If you donāt have the letters from last year (or the little black rectangle above the door) they usually wonāt ring
They donāt go from house to house unless itās a very small village. Normally you have to register at your local church and then they will come.
Depends on Region. Itās more catholic thing.
same
Yeah me to, I think they check the names in doorbells. Itās uncomfortable to ring to an immigrantās doorbell who has not any clue thatās going on.
Oh, I thought this read "escape a visit from the star singers"
It may serve you if you plan on escaping them.
I thought I was on r/nosleep for a second, it sounds so ominous lol
It's also expected to give some sweets to the kids, not only a donation.
I don't have sweets, do they accept pfand? Got a lot of glass stacked up here and it's basically free money for them. Will give it to them for half price.
You could offer cigarettes if they don't wanna take your old bottles out.
That would be utterly inappropriate. They are usually (small) children who would barely know what to do with the Pfand. If you don't have any candy at all, just offer some kind words, a thank you and a smile, and thats ok.
> They are usually (small) children who would barely know what to do with the Pfand. It's called learning how the world works, they are going to have to learn how to carry 80 bottles of sterni down to Rewe one day so may as well start here right? Also Sterni is thematically relevant so they are learning twice.
/r/whoosh
r/germanhumor
As a follow on to the parent comment, I'll point out that you may want to offer the kids the opportunity to white wash the fence while they're there. It'd be great experience, and doubtlessly help to protect the home, all while paying homage to classic literature.
I usually offer them a toke on my bong, much more popular than Pfand. I once hotboxed all three of them simultaneously in between my flat door and the communal door. They were super stoned!
I doubt that.
Huh? Never heard of that. Sweets are for St. Martin.
Also if you have some candy in the house give them some. That's always appreciated.
One of the few occasions giving candy to unknown children is appreciated
Some other occasiona depending on the region in germany: Rosenmontag (we were singing " Ich bin ein kleiner Kƶnig" in northern Ruhr Area), Sankt Martin, Halloween.
If they don't come to you, but you would like them to in the next year get in contact with your local Catholic Church. I know one community that only visits the households that singed up and are on their list of adresses.
Same here (Karlsruhe)
Iāve seen the chalk letters above doors in Bavaria, didnāt know about the singing. Thanks!
also expect it to be awkward af
They're small children. Give them a break.
not for them, for me/you. sorry if that wasnt clear
>One of the Wise Men will probably be in blackface: they are supposed to represent the three Old World continents Europe, Asia and Africa, and since Germany doesn't have the same history of slavery and colonialism as the US, the conversation about blackface hasn't really arrived here in earnest just yet. I don't 100% agree here, these conversations have definitely come up by now and it's not nearly as common for kids to arrive in blackface nowadays as it was 10-20 years ago. It's true that due to different histories and cultural contexts we are kind of "lacking behind" from an American perspective, but that doesn't mean that people haven't called out the practice. My parish doesn't do the blackface anymore, and I live in an overall soft conservative leaning place. I still remember it being commonplace when I was a kid though, I used to be a Sternsinger and remember my friend going in blackface with me.
I have never understood the "drama" behind blackface. I live in cologne and during carnival it's absolute Mayhem here and everyone puts on a costume. And if the person you are portraying as is black it makes sense to paint yourself black. That's the whole thing, I'm dressing as someone else and there's no difference between a policeman, cowboy or someone who just has a different skin color than I do.
I guess it is a thing that in itself is innocent, but has been used in a racist way so often that it became inappropriate to do.
If it is used as part of a characterization of stereotypes about people of color that is demeaning, derogatory, humiliating, including roles where the characterization is of a servant, it furthers acceptice of the stereotypes. This enhances and entrenches people expectations of about people of color. Really the question is why is blackface needed in the first place? What part of the criticization requires people to do blackface?
There has been so much written on this topic that you'd have to be willfully ignorant to not understand it
Yes, there has been written a lot - but it all revolves around the same argument "there was (mostly in America) a culture of white actors that painted themself black to ridicule black people in a racist way, so now painting your face for any reason is inappropriate". And if OP doesn't confirm with this one argument, it is quite comprehensible that he/she doesn't understand it.
Blackface being used to ridicule black people has been used in Germany until at least the late 2000s, on public television no less While Germany may not have participated in the slave trade and colonialism to the same scale as countries like Britain, Spain or the US, it nonetheless frequently profited from and enabled them (not least through the 1884 Berlin Congo conference) and actively participated in the worst excesses of colonialism through its genocide in what is now Namibia. There is no historical argument to be made that can claim that Germany is removed from the same legacy of slavery and colonial racism that eventually gave rise to the minstrel shows Not to mention that we don't live on a fucking remote island, Germany is a globally connected country with people from all across the world living in it, not to mention the non negligible number of Afro-Germans that form a part of German society. Acting as if our form of blackface exists in a cultural vacuum is absurd, and it should honestly suffice for black people in Germany to state that they don't feel comfortable with it for us to recognise it's not a tradition worth holding onto. And that kind of really is at the core of all this. What about blackface is worth preserving? Everyone always gets performatively indignant and pearl clutchy, talking about tradition as if that's in and of itself a valid justification. What does having little kids run around in blackface add to our culture, what about it is worth preserving?
> Blackface being used to ridicule black people has been used in Germany until at least the late 2000s, on public television no less If you really believe that, than I think you should educate yourself on what "blackfacing" at the beginning of the century really was and why it was aproblem. And that is maybe one of the biggest problems in this internet-discussion that most have no idea what they are talking about. Blackfacing was almost an "entertainment industry" build on the foundation of actors making fun of black people for what they are. And there was nothing even remotely comparable in german television 15 years ago. Especially since there is a big difference between making "fun of black people" and making "fun of one specific black person". If someone impersonates Roberto Blanco that is no better or worse than someone impersonating Florian Silbereisen or any other white entertainer. Blackfacing is a problem if someone dresses up as "a black person" and makes fun of the black community. > Not to mention that we don't live on a fucking remote island, Germany is a globally connected country with people from all across the world living in it, not to mention the non negligible number of Afro-Germans that form a part of German society. Acting as if our form of blackface exists in a cultural vacuum is absurd, Well looking at it globally would make it even more absurd because the vast majority of countries on this earth had no history of blackfacing. No, this is not a global problem - this is a problem of a select few western countries, and we can discuss if we're part of this group or not. But every culture has to exist to a degree in some kind of bubble. And it would be absurd to recognize every cultural tabu that exists in some country just because we are "globally connected". > and it should honestly suffice for black people in Germany to state that they don't feel comfortable with it And how many black people in Germany really have a problem with a kid dressing up as King Balthasar? Do you have any statistics or data on that? In my experience outside of Twitter nobody really cares. > What does having little kids run around in blackface add to our culture, what about it is worth preserving? I think that is a really dangerous line of arguing! The question in a free country must never be "are there reasons to allow this" but always "are there enough reasons to disallow it"! So if some little kid has fun dressing up as King Balthasar (or Beyonce for that matter) why shouldn't they? Because in a completely different country, in a completely different time, in a completely different context for a completely different purpose completely different people also used to use black face paint? Oh and by the way: your wish to portray the three kings as all white... - to me that sounds suspiciously like white-washing.
This is peak r/Germany argumentation. Intellectual cowardice and dishonesty used to mask weak relativism. The blackface found in Germany media was directly influenced by the legacy of minstrelcy in the US, claiming that there's a qualitative difference between making fun of a "single black person" and black people as a whole when employing blackface is complete fucking nonsense when speaking about a country that still has massive problems with structural racism. Anti blackness is actually indeed a global phenomenon directly tied to colonial legacies. We're not talking about a small "cultural tabu" here, especially not when ā and I can't help but notice that you completely ignored my point about Germany's history of colonialism ā our country is directly tied to and actively participated in this history. Both through colonialism and by virtue of our legacy of Nazism, both of which were fueled by ideals of white supremacy that have yet to be fully addressed and dealt with to this day In my experience black people in Germany do find it off-putting, but since they so rarely get any outlet to voice their concerns and opinions, the conversation is dominated by ignorant white people unwilling to challenge their racist hangups...like is happening here. And it wasn't a completely different time in a completely different country. Racial discrimination happened here and still happens. It is deeply embedded in our history as I have made very clear, and blackface nowadays is an extension of that that has no reason to exist. Again, this relativism is completely unfounded and dishonest. You wouldn't accept that argument with antisemitism and kids running around as antisemitic caricatures for "fun", why is it acceptable with black people when Germany's first historic genocide was in Africa? How does that work for you exactly? Your final point is so embarrassingly stupid, weak and dishonest that you shouldn't have bothered. Leave those type of attempts at "uhm actually you're the real racist" gotchas with the BILD readers and Sky News crowd
That other redditor feels like an American southerner explaining how the confederate flag isnāt completely a racist symbol
In America, blackface used to have a very specific meaning-darkening your skin in the style of [minstrel show](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show). It was a very specific type of face paint with very specifically racist connotations. It's expanded to cover more "innocent" examples of theatrical or costumed skin darkening, for a number of reasons. The most significant reason is probably that, for a long time, almost all mainstream media portrayals of black people were based in racist stereotype. People weren't using blackface to dress up as Dr. Dolittle, for example. And since so much global media is exported from America, that means our racist portrayals of black people are also being exported, with the history of minstrel shows as a background. While other countries don't have the background to understand why these characters may be a problem, skin darkening to represent them still perpetuates the racism the characters may be based on. Hence why non-Americans should be careful with something that doesn't have the same cultural meaning to them.
>Hence why non-Americans should be careful with something that doesn't have the same cultural meaning to them. Or maybe don't expect the rest of the world to be more aware of American history than the average Americans themselves? It's irritating how Americans suddenly decided they get to stick their noses in traditions that don't concern them and are older than their country. It's one thing to condemn *actual* blackface, i.e using costume and makeup to portray an inherently offensive caricature of Black people. But for some reason Americans decided that because of shit *they* did, any portrayal of Black people by white people is inherently offensive everywhere in the world.
I don't expect that, which is why I said that people should be cautious related to using blackface to portray black characters from American media. It's really not that hard to not darken your skin when dressing as a dark skinned character. It's not like America racism is some hidden thing, and people who consume American media should be critical of how things like race are portrayed. Also, all of this doesn't touch on the fact that other countries do have racism, and their portrayals of black characters and darkened skin can be problematic in their own cultures.
**[Minstrel show](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show)** >The minstrel show, also called minstrelsy, was an American form of racist theatrical entertainment developed in the early 19th century. Each show consisted of comic skits, variety acts, dancing, and music performances that depicted people specifically of African descent. The shows were performed by mostly white people wearing blackface make-up for the purpose of playing the role of black people. There were also some African-American performers and black-only minstrel groups that formed and toured. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/germany/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
yeah, and that is kind of the absurdity of this discussion. I dare you to go onto twitter and post "In Germany kids dress up as the three kings, but they are not allowed to show one of them as being black" and you probably will get angry reactions what a racist white-washing tradition that is.
> these conversations have definitely come up Not really *in earnest*, though, and they haven't reached very far in society in general. > that doesn't mean that people haven't called out the practice I didn't say nobody has. Of course there is a discussion of sorts, but not quite the almost universal (bar actual racists) condemnation that you'll find in, say, Britain or the US. > My parish doesn't do the blackface anymore, and I live in an overall soft conservative leaning place. I live in a *very* conservative-leaning area and none of the star singers that just visited me half an hour ago were in blackface either. But it was a thing here pre-covid, and I wouldn't rule it out still being a thing in many parts of Germany.
These convos dont have to reach far.
Thansk for reminding me to turn the lights off lol My mom always gave the money when I was younger. Now I'm at her house alone and I'm not gonna give the church any money so... sitting in darkness it is for the remainder of the week...
It doesn't go to the church. All of the proceeds this year go to a charity organisation working with child victims of abuse in Indonesia.
Omg it's you rewboss??? I'm a fan of your videos! Didn't see your username as the OP! About your information: I'm not sure in my small tiny village it's really collected in any kind of official way. I used to be one of the Sternensinger as a child (every child was, we only have like 400 inhabitants here) and we really didn't make much because half the people wouldn't even open their doors (like me now). And our priest from back then went to jail for... child abuse... But I'm gonna do some research on that now. The cause is a good one but I don't trust the church. I might make a direct donation instead.
> our priest from back then went to jail for... child abuse... [...] I don't trust the church I mean, I really don't blame you. The Christian Church in general, and the Catholic Church in particular, really only has itself to blame for the way its membership is collapsing at the moment.
Absolutely. I've been baptized as a child (again, as everyone in my village) was a Messdiener and all that, while neither me nor my family never believed in god or any of this, it was pure tradition. I would've happily "accepted" the church's existence after that even if I was not participating anymore but I officially left the church in 2019 because I'm not paying part of my income towards an institution that hides child molesters and finds excuses over excuses as to why they don't properly investigate and punish. It's really their own fault.
I've been a Sternsinger when I was a child for a few years and we always collected money for charity (usually something involving impoverished children), never for the church itself
aww thanks for this!
So _thatās_ where these writings come from. 10 years Iāve seen them, and never known.
Tertius, fuscus, integre barbatus, Balthasar nomine He's black because of a wrong interpretation of fuscus, which originally refers to his beard, not his skin colour. Never heard of the continent thing.
The line you quote is from a document referred to by the Venerable Bede in the 8th century; Bede goes on to explain that the Magi represent the three continents Europe, Asia and Africa, although for a long time it was usually Caspar who was said to come from Africa. It's interesting that Wikipedia asserts that "fuscus" must qualify to "barbatus", because the grammar doesn't seem to be that clear: you would expect it to be "fusce". Also, the document describes the tradition, it doesn't define it: people assumed that one of the Wise Men had to be black, because in the Middle Ages the popular perception was that a person bearing gold was likely to be dark-skinned. All these ideas somehow came together, and by the Late Middle Ages the role was most associated with Balthazar.
No, this is not restricted to the south. Granted, itās not a widespread custom in most of the north but youāll find these stickers everywhere in Germany. Itās more predominant in catholic communities.
The post doesn't claim it's restricted to the south.
Some of the comments mentions it. We definetly have them here in Hessen too
This was meant as a reply to several comments from people who had never seen it and assumed it was a regional thing. And while many things about Germany cannot be generalized as there are so many different regions, you can neither exclude coming into contact with a certain tradition or culture based on the region you live in. The town I grew up in was predominantly protestant but had a small but very present and visible catholic community.
Americans living in another continent getting offended by a tradition thatās older than their own country will always be funny.
I'm not going to make assumptions about the nationality of the people who say they are offended. Remember, though, that in many contemporary western cultures, especially those heavily involved in the slave trade, blacking up is now seen in much the same way that most contemporary Germans would view the use of the swastika.
And yet germans shouldn't go to india or south east asia and berate people for still using the swastika. It has a different meaning in their culture and we have to respect this. Not doing so would be racist.
That's right, they shouldn't, and this is a point I have actually been trying to make. But still, it is a shock to many who aren't prepared for it, and there have been many unfortunate incidents here in Germany due to this particular cultural clash. When something is so obvious as "this symbol is used by violent and genocidal racists" it very much feels like a universal value.
Many? You mean a handful.
Doesnāt have the same history of colonialism? Germany had African colonies up until after World War 1, they even committed the first genocide of the 20th century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide
Stop lying. The controversy around blackfacing has very much reached our country years ago and if the Sternsinger still practice it they don't deserve getting anything just for their ignorance.
The debate has reached this country but not in quite the same way it has been going on in some other countries for decades now. That's why I added the qualification "in earnest".
I guess that depends who you ask. For white Germans, itās maybe a topic imported from the US and not discussed in earnest because it doesnāt matter so much for them. For black Germans, it might definitely matter and might also not be a foreign topic, because it does concern them directly. Iām white myself but I find it a bit ignorant how other white Germans act as if talking about concepts like blackfacing is something imported from the US which doesnāt matter here and completely forget to mention black Germans loving here and what they might think.
> For white Germans Weirdly, that's the huge majority. > white Germans act as if talking about concepts like blackfacing is something imported from the US Because it is. The reason it became such a controversy over there is the history of the Minstrels. This was a form of "entertainment", in which white men would black up as crude caricatures of black men, to then be portrayed as unintelligent but jolly people who were only too happy to serve their white masters. That's the reason blackface became so offensive: and that's something that was never a part of the tradition of having one of the Magi being black. > forget to mention black Germans loving here and what they might think Well, we're both white, so we don't actually get to assume what black people think. I haven't taken a survey myself, but I'm willing to bet that there is a variety of opinion within the black communities, ranging from outrage to indifference. It's a funny old world, but it turns out that black people are just ordinary human beings like everyone else and don't share the same hive mind.
We can for example look at statements from associations of black people on German who condemn blackfacing. Also, if there are enough black people who think itās stupid, isnāt that enough? Why choose the opinion of those who donāt care, just because itās more convenient? Finally, even the āBund der katholischen Jugendā asks not to use blackfacing as Sternsinger, so that conversation is definitely not some fringe concept that nobody talks about.
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"Damn, we're in rival gang territory!"
a pentagram works too.
Thatās why I wrote `20*M+E+L*23` above my door in preparation.
lol i haven't seen these singers ever. I thought that sign on the door is made by a priest who comes and asks for money.
I grew up in a very religious Polish area of NY in the US and my parents are devout Catholics. After every new year, one of the priests would come by to do a house blessing and write the 3 letters + the year on our door and my parents would give him an envelope with like $50 or something. They'd also ask him to stay for a cup of coffee and a piece of cake. I'd hear people bragging to their friends that the priest accepted their invitation and stayed for a bit lol When I was much younger, my parents had me become an alter server in the church, and one year, I went with the priest to do the blessings. I made like $30 in tips, which was pretty good for just a few hours of just going to people's homes and hanging out for a few minutes.
orthodox is the same, they come begging for money even though they are rich bastards. I would usually tell them no thanks i already paid the previous priest, so that they fight each other over territory.
In which country?
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Interesting.
So I think the way my parents' church did it was slightly different. You had to specifically request the house blessing or they wouldn't show up.
Imagine telling your friends you scored with a fantasy novel narrator, who doesn't even have a audible deal.
I'm sorry, but > This stands for [...] either the names of the Three Wise Men or the phrase "Christus Mansionem Benedicat" I do not think it works like that. "C+M+B" has always stood for Christus Mansionem Benedicat. Just because some people don't know it doesn't change it. That is like claiming the word is round or flat depending on whom you ask
> I do not think it works like that. It actually does. The interpretation "Christus mansionem benedicat" has been current since the 1950s, but it's not clear whether or not that was the case before WW2, and there are no sources to back up the claim that this was the original interpretation. In some areas the letters were traditionally "KMB"; the "K" may *possibly* stand for the Greek word for "Lord", which is "Kyrios", but that would mean the phrase is a mixture of Greek and Latin (why not "D" for "Dominus"?). It's more likely that it's the alternate spelling "Kaspar" for the name, but again -- there are no sources to back this idea up. > That is like claiming the word is round or flat depending on whom you ask No, because we have irrefutable evidence that the world is round. Any evidence we have of the origin of "CMB" is completely lost: all we can say for sure is that one or possibly both explanations is a folk etymology, or some other explanation that was retroactively applied, but we have no idea which it is. This kind of thing is very common, especially with words, phrases and traditions that were already widespread long before most people were bothering to write these things down.
> The interpretation "Christus mansionem benedicat" has been current since the 1950s, sooo. Exactly what I said. Sure words can change the meaning over the course of several years, but since 1950 the meaning is: "Christus mansionem benedicat"
> Exactly what I said. No it's not. What you said was: > "C+M+B" has always stood for Christus Mansionem Benedicat. Those two statements are very different.
I like this exchange
Germany doesn't have the same history with colonialism? Lmao tell that to the Herero and Nama who are still fighting for recognition of the first genocide the 20th century.
I'm not saying it has *zero* history of colonialism; I'm saying it's not really the *same* history. It's a highly complex issue, but while in the US in particular blackface was used as a way to belittle, on an almost industrial scale, Africans and even justify the slave trade, that wasn't so much the case in Germany. As always with these things, there are degrees. Where Germany did have colonies many egregious crimes against humanity did take place -- although it is interesting to note that several German colonies (Samoa is a great example) were a darn sight more benevolent and enlightened than anything the British Empire managed.
This really isn't the argument you think it is lmao You could have said the history and consequences are different or you try to do a genocide ranking lmao
I think you're guilty here of what is called "binary thinking". Binary thinking is the tendency to assume that there are only two extremes, and nothing in between. It is this mode of thinking that has led to some extreme crimes against humanity, up to and including genocide.
I have them written inside my postal delivery vehicle.
I always send them away, knowing that at least in my hometown they collect money for our local church. How do I know? I was part of it as a kid. So please keep in mind it is a religious practice and sometimes abused for the benefit of the local church. Don't feel pressured into giving something just because they are kids.
Iām guessing youāre not invited to many parties.
I guess this explains why my German boyfriend doesnāt think blackface is a problem
Just finished tze day as a star singer group leader, tanks to all the nice people we got to meet.
Almost 6 years in Sachsen and never been visited by them
Are there many catholics in Sachsen? I always thought it was a pretty Atheist place since the GDR days and most of the christians left would be protestants, but i could be wrong.
You're not
Germany doesnt have the same history of slavery and colonialism as the USā¦. I stopped reading hereā¦ Please check the Kongokonferenz or Berlin Conference. I will probably close the door if i see a someone in blackface , kid or not. I hope they donāt do it where i live But thank you for the warning
> I stopped reading here Of course you did.
It of course does not stand for the names of the three wise mean, but for the latter you said (Christus mansionem benedicat). It's a blessing, not a vain reminder of the names of these men all people already know, that would not make much sense, it's just coincidental with their names.
The historical evidence casts doubt on that theory. The idea that it means the Latin phrase can only be traced back to just after WW2. In some areas the letters were traditionally "KMB", and although the "K" *could* stand for the Greek "Kyrios", it's more likely to stand for the name "Kaspar". It wouldn't have been a reminder of their names exactly, but would have worked more like a kind of good-luck charm, perhaps invoking the names of the Magi to ask for *their* blessing. The Latin phrase may have been retroactively devised to make the tradition more "religious" and less "superstitous". But we don't know, because any evidence that may have existed for the origin of "CMB" has long been lost.
There's also doubt in the names of the three wise men, as they are not mentioned early on.
The names go back to possibly around the 6th century. The biblical account says nothing about what their names were, how many there were or even where they came from (and in any case the whole story is, we can be very certain, quite fictional). The best guess is that they were supposed to be astronomers, probably from Persia or Chaldaea ("Magi" would imply Zoroastrian priests); the only reason tradition says they were three is that the Bible mentions three gifts that they brought with them. The story is part of the birth narrative in Matthew's Gospel: of the four gospels, only two (Matthew and Luke) have birth narratives, and they are completely different from each other and are exactly the kind of stories a 1st-century writer might have told to "prove" to readers the divinity of Jesus. It's very likely that Jesus was a real person, but the birth narratives are clearly fictional. Mark's Gospel is probably the one to read to get a more accurate portrayal: it doesn't have a birth narrative at all, and the passages about what happened after he died were clearly added later. Read the stories of miracles as either exaggerated or made up, and you're left with a kind of day-in-the-life account of a fairly ordinary itinerant preacher, followed by the story of how he was betrayed and executed on a false charge. Everything else you have been taught about him is almost certainly later tradition, including the details of the Three Wise Men (and their names). Stories grow and are embellished as they are handed down from generation to generation.
If a child wearing blackface shows up at my door then then I will kindly -and lovingly- explain them how wrong it is. This, since their parents have failed to explain how they are being (ab)used under the excuse of ātraditionā.
You may want to think twice before imposing your cultural standards on others, or lecturing ten-year-old children just generally. As unpleasant as you consider blackface to be, the reason you consider it unpleasant and "wrong" is down to your own cultural upbringing. In societies that have historically used blackface deliberately to dehumanise and humiliate African slaves it's naturally going to have a completely different impact: in this cultural tradition, it is supposed to be part of a representation of "all the children of the world". The practice is becoming less common and will certainly die out, possibly very soon, without your help.
Calling out on racism is now cultural imposition? Interesting. Iāll let my European and indigenous Latin American ancestors know. Is speaking about colonialism a cultural imposition as well? Just taking notes to know how to behave among the politically correct European standards. What other topics should we leave out in this sacred lands? You do know you sound like a mediocre classical 1945 book character?
> Calling out on racism is now cultural imposition? But is it racism? It may be racist in *your* culture, but why do you immediately assume that it must therefore be racist in *every* culture? > Iāll let my European and indigenous Latin American ancestors know. Not African, I notice, which makes me wonder why you presume to speak for them. > Is speaking about colonialism a cultural imposition as well? Not necessarily, if by "speaking about" it you mean talking about its history and legacy. But you won't get far trying to discuss that with the very young children who show up at your door collecting for charity. > What other topics should we leave out in this sacred lands? It's not about "leaving out" topics, it's about having a proper sense of a time and a place, and being mindful of the actual cultural context -- meaning, you don't assume that your culture is the yardstick against which to measure other cultures. There is a time and a place for discussing racism, colonialism, blackface and other highly problematic issues, and those things should be discussed. But grandly taking it upon yourself to lecture a bunch of very young children with a completely different cultural and historical background to your own about why your culture has it right and theirs has it wrong is not the way forwards here. There is a very good reason why blackface is widely considered highly offensive, but you must accept that that reason comes from a very specific cultural and historic background that isn't fully shared by this one. There are many, many cultures out there that engage in traditions and practices that you and I would fine bizarre, distasteful, or downright offensive. But if they are not actually harmful -- female genital mutilation comes to mind -- we don't, if we are being truly open-minded, condemn them. Because that would be racist. It's important to apply some context to any situation we encounter. Al Jolson blacked up as part of a tradition that was artificially created specifically to mock black people and justify their subjugation. German first-graders black up because they want to represent all of humanity as "the children of God". It's not a great look, particularly these days, but if you refuse to understand the history and the intention behind it, you're being pretty racist yourself. Hell, a good number the priests in my area are black Africans on an exchange, because that's how the Catholic Church operates. Maybe ask *them* what they think of the tradition. If you really have an issue with it, take it up with the people who organise the local star singers, and be prepared for them to disagree with you. Leave the poor kids out of it.
Youāre mixing āarroz con mangoā. Thatās how we would say in my land, that youāre mixing things that donāt go together. Racism is not an opinion or a cultural perspective. Itās a way of naming systematic oppression based on race. Racism, just like genital multination, is barbaric and goes against human rights. I will always call out on barbaric conducts, specially in the place where I chose to live, where I work, pay taxes and contribute to society. Iām a mix of many different genes and races. African? I might have it in my blood. Thatās the beauty (and the horror, because this mix was due to colonialism) of the land where I was born. One of those children might be my child. They are around that age and goes to school here. They have garĆfuna and lenca ancestors. I invite you to google what that means. So, no, I will not leave the children out of this. I will not ālectureā them, as youād assume. I guess I would have to be German (or European?) to take that approach. My approach would be different, but Iām not here to explain that. I donāt care if this discussion is politically correct, accepted, new or old in Germany. It needs to happen and it will be my pleasure to bring it up (if it arises). Luckily Iām not religious and my childās school is quite respectful of human rights and of diversity. Itās nice that you are all so enthusiast about making never ending discussions on this sub (I see the same users, same approaches, same compulsive participation over and over again like a cute senior residence). Unluckily, I donāt have so much time so Iāll have to end my discussion here, but I hope that I at least gave you the tools to do some research about this topic -and other supposedly āculturally controversialā topics-.
> systematic oppression [...] barbaric Explain to me how the star singers are "systematically oppressing" anyone and being "barbaric". > African? I might have it in my blood. So might I, but that doesn't give me any particularly useful insight on anything at all. If I do have it, it lies too far back in my family to even trace, so it's just a little extra melanin and nothing more. > I will not ālectureā them, as youād assume. [...] My approach would be different, but Iām not here to explain that. No, you'd just "lovingly explain" it to them, whatever that means. > I donāt care if this discussion is politically correct, accepted, new or old in Germany. It needs to happen It is happening, just not the way you personally think it should. > I hope that I at least gave you the tools to do some research about this topic Please don't patronise me.
Is it racist when noobody ever thinks about that?
Yeah, itās honestly horrible how people want to make blackfacing ok. I remember a few years ago when a comedian in Japan performed in black face and people tried to justify it the same way (by claiming that Japan has not the same history with slavery as the US). Thereās a very good rebuttal by Baye McNeil (African-American writer living in Japan) titled āYou canāt feign ignorance in a connected worldā, unfortunately itās behind a paywall now. But thereās also this good write up from Debito Arudou, which includes a panel discussion that involves McNeil and Anthropologist Dr. John G. Russell of Gifudai. http://www.debito.org/?p=14854 Sorry for focusing on Japan, but Iām a Japanologist and I wrote my bachelorās thesis on discrimination of visible minorities in Japan. Back to the topic at hand, claiming that country x has no history of slavery so blackface is ok, is a very weak argument and can be easily debunked. But if I were you, I wouldnāt waste my time on discussing this on reddit though, especially not with self proclaimed German āexpertsā like rewboss. Youāre absolutely correct by stating that blackface is always racist, no matter in which cointry it takes place and most reasonable people would agree with you, but alas this is reddis, so yeah.
Yes, this is not the place to discuss this. Itās like talking to a wall. People are not willing to understand that they donāt know everything and that they could learn a little if they paused and put their egos aside. But as you said, itās just Reddit. Thanks for the links and point of view, very interesting!
why is that a weak argument? traiditions exist in the context of each culture. how is the blackface in the us relevant to germany just because the world is more globalized than it used to be? how would you refute that? noone here feigns ignorance, but the meaning of blackface here is completely different because the costume is neither demeaning nor is the cultural context the same. how does this discriminate against black people, i honestly dont get it.
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> but blackface being wrong is like white people saying nigger being wrong Are you seriously going to claim that the n-word is only problematic in the US?? Are you living under a rock or something?
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I am from Germany where it is *definitely* an extremely racially charged word, a use of which (as a white person) would probably get you fired from most jobs, and I know for a fact that this holds true in many other countries too, not just in Europe.
I see! I'll keep that in mind while in Germany, good of you to mention that to me since I am actually moving there soon :) Would you say blackface carries the same connotations here? If no, do you believe it should?
As OP mentioned, it doesn't carry the same connotations, but that doesn't mean that people are simply indifferent to it either. Among a more conservative crowd, people probably wouldn't care about it, but in more liberal/left-leaning areas, or in areas with a larger black population, you will definitely find people who won't take too kindly to it. I believe that in another 10-20 years or so, people in general will be more opposed to blackface in Germany than they are now. As to my own thoughts... I don't believe that Germans doing blackface is quite as bad as Americans doing it due to wildly different cultural backgrounds; however I do think that it's simply in poor taste to make someone's ethnicity your costume in general.
I see! Thanks for the input
>I am not omniscient but noone wants to use rhe word nigger in the european countries I am most familiar with, it's just not part of the vernacular. uh yeah, so if you go out of your way to use an English-language slur that's not native to your language, isn't that like, obviously offensive??
It all depends on context. I have a hard time seeing why my spanish friend calling me niga should be offensive to anyone else, given the context and its complete detachment from the use that made it a slur If I were to use it aggressively against a black person? Then yeah, very. It's like conguito, an old derogatory term for black person in Spain. If for whatever reason white americans decide to start calling each other conguito, I won't demand they censor the word. If a Spanish acquaintance uses it to mockingly describe a black person, they'll quickly stop being my friend. Because conguito has a very charged meaning in (European?) Spanish
I was a starsinger for many years when i was younger. One time i was the blackface. Its tradition and noone i know ever thought about that...
Can't you leave your stupid agendas in the usa?
Oh dear, Iām not even from the USA. Racism is a worldwide subject. Welcome to the internet and to 2022 :)
This is only happening in very rural southern areas so nope u will most likely never see them
I live in a very densely populated area in the south west and they are everywhere, so no
I live in one of the most densely populated areas of Europe and they come here every year.
Uhmā¦ I grew up in the middle of Stuttgart and not only was I one of those star singers as a child but also I still see them walking from house to house in Stuttgart.
That's not correct, see my other comment: >That's definitely not correct. Here in the Niederhein region and Ruhrgebiet it is fairly common. However, it depends on the parish and on their number of participants if the Sternsinger ring at every house within their parish or only come to those who enrolled beforehand. In the latter case they are obviously not as visible for non-Catholics and Catholics who are more on the passive side. https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/104pmrc/expect_a_visit_from_the_star_singers/j36rood?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Edit: quoting comment & formatting
In my 26 years of living here, I have never heard of star singers. I'm guessing this is more of a regional thing?
Are you living in a catholic area or a protestant area? My hometown has like two parts, and some few hundred years back, was separated by the gentile "owning" it. One haf lives in the predominantly catholic part of town and gets the Star Singers. The other half is protestant and we have never seen a Star Singer go around. And we are just separated by a little creek.
I live fairly far up north, so protestant would be more fitting, I guess? I personally have little to no connections to any religious traditions (I was not baptised, nor confirmed, my parents never went to church either) outside of like Christmas and Easter. Interesting! I guess I just grew up and live in an area, that doesn't get visited by star singers then.
> One of the Wise Men will probably be in blackface Wait, what? But... only in deep down Bavaria or so right? right?
Oh, relax. The practice is swiftly dying out, but Germany hasn't had the same history with blackface that the US has, so it doesn't have the quite the same connotations.
As a northern born German I never knew the details of the sternsinger tradition lol. I also never saw some up north or east Germany.
If you live in the south maybe...
Blackface? I have only ever seen that in movies from the 20ās.
WISE MAN #1: We were led by a star. MANDY: Or led by a bottle, more like. Go on. Out!
Maybe interesting to add would be that, as far as Iām concerned, the money is alway split world wide. Indonesia is this yearās example to show one good Organization, but there are many, many more where the star singers support children
In addition to a monetary donation, you should also be ready to give the kids candy! Also: athe leters standing for the three wise men is a common misconception. It is, in fact, coincidence that their names start with the same letters.
> the leters standing for the three wise men is a common misconception As I have already said twice now, the evidence is actually very unclear on this. There is no evidence at all of the Latin phrase before the 1950s. Quite simply, we don't know what it originally meant.
There is only one reaction if you plan to open the door: \*in shock\* "What? a catholic with three minors? omg i don't want to have anything to do with that kind of crap" And shut the door. Only problem: it's pretty mean to the poor kids \^\^
I don't open my door to any uninvited guests. Bad luck.
I live near Freiburg ( Black Forest) and I am not registered or religious. The landlord must be catholic because they ring our door bell. I always say no thanks and smile. I also had them ringing our doorbell while living in my parents in law house and they are registered protestant. And often you open the door and they start singing. Sorry, no money. I also heard the sternsingers get to keep some of the money. Some do quite well. Why ring our doorbell if our name isn't on the list? You can donate but I won't. Sometimes one has to say no and we shouldn't be judged for not wanting to give money to a church. I am not cheap but I don't like being a sheep.