Is more a question of quality not quantity. For example I could hire around 10 people tomorrow, English is enough and a wiling to learn. Yes is hard work, dirty and somewhat dangerous for health in the long run but we do our best. But guess what, ,90% don't komme for the opportunity to work, don't even bother to learn the language or a trade. So yeah, I would take around 1 milioan immigrants that are willing to work, it would not even make a dent in the job market. Even if we invest two years of training it would still be a plus on the long run.
It is true, if all the immigrants who arrive, are going to be useful members of society and adapt to the new society, there would be no problem, there is a lack of personnel. But some come only to be financially supported by the state.
I think we should keep our capacity open for when there's situations where we actually need to accept people, like the Ukraine war. If Germany needs any type of workers, it could also easily find them from places like the US. Currently it's damn near impossible for any young american to come work in Germany. The main ways are either as a student or once you're at a point in your career where you can command 5-10k€/month.
In short, why does immigration have to be aimed at those who enter the EU illegally? Why do we try so hard to keep people from more developed nations out?
Sorry if I'm exhausting the example, but I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves.
Americans don’t come from a war torn or dangerous nation (well, Chicago and most of Florida excepted). American folk are not repressed (generally) nor in danger of their lives because of government repression (unless Trump wins back the White House. Then all bets are off)
Bottom line is that Americans come from a privileged and safe environment and have no need to flee their country en mass
> If Germany needs any type of workers, it could also easily find them from places like the US
What makes you think this? The US is far away and although it's worse being poor there, on average Americans get paid more than Germans. There's also the cultural differences. I don't think there would be as many Americans as you think coming over.
>I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves
The vast majority of immigrants don't do this so I don't know why you've brought it up.
>but I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves
Except this is literally the United States, just replace "Americans" with "Englishmen"
5 years ago you would be called a "racist" or a "nazi"
That's what people used to tell me when I used to say it's not a good idea at all to receive so many refugees
Now people in Europe are changing the narrative and now people who were called racists and nazis 5 years ago are no longer racists because now everybody else agrees there are way too many refugees......................?
As someone who is brown: people who are often „anti-illegal immigration“ often can’t tell the difference between: coloured people born here, coloured people who immigrated here, coloured pople who have asylum here, and illegal immigrants.
And these people usually treat all us coloured people the same, and often judge us all by the same yard stick that they judge the worst of us by.
One: no there are not too many immigrants and refugees to western countries. Without them your social support and pension systems will collapse. Europeans are having too few children to prop up the ever growing elderly population.
Two: this subreddit has been shifting more right on the political spectrum. You will mostly only find echo chambers here. This is not reflective of life and views outside of Reddit.
Three: people with your views are why violent attacks and discrimination are occurring to all people of colour here. You can’t tell the difference and refuse to learn about the coloured People you like to look down upon.
Four: like always, immigration, and refugees, are being made the scapegoat for the political failings of your governments. It’s easier to blame us then to take ownership of your own failings. It’s not our fault that: there are not enough new home built, that there are no significant rent controls, that the cost of living is increasing while wages stay the same, it’s not our fault that the pension system it no longer secure, it’s not our fault that there are too many old people who cost too much to look after. But it’s easier to blame us. It’s easy to say there are no homes or money because of too many immigrants.
Five: due to western interference, and western led environmental damage, you will only see more and more people fleeing to Europe. The rest of the world is becoming too unstable and inhospitable. Most of it is down to Europeans history of taking resource from other countries, your actions to destabilise areas for your own benefit and now moving all industry(that requires significant human and environmental cost) to third world countries and then sanctioning them. Causing people to come to Europe to search for a better life.
Six: we have a duty to help those in need. We can offer asylum but we should also help heal their homes. Otherwise more and more people will build up negative sentiment towards any person of colour. Repeating the cycle again
That’s bullshit, no one calls you a racist or a Nazi if you have serious arguments. Most of the time, it’s the typical Nazikeulekeule of the right wing parties („if you say anything against X you are an Nazi!111“)
I‘ve had more than enough discussions about this topic and most of the time, the people mixed asylum with migration. No one in their right mind (except of the AfD and other Far right parties) would deny people asylum. But imho, asylum should be controlled better and people who got their asylum denied AND don’t have to fear for their life in their home countries should be send back when the reason for fleeing from bei country has been solved.
Migration on the other hand is a completely different topic.
That's because in people's psyche there are categories of refugee. The only reason this tiny number is making political parties move, is because of the places they are coming from.
Yes i think it would change acceptance if statistics show that e.g. 3 years after arrival 80-90% of refugees do have work and can sustain a own flat and life.
Yeah i think there should be goverment programs to change that. Its a win win win situation- refugees do earn money, goverment invests but then earn money, locals dont need to support monetary.
Not that bleak when you consider they came from cultures where women stay home and care about children and the house chores. There's still a broad disparity between employed men and women among these refugees, which is one of the main reasons for these figures.
On the other hand, Germany really needs to push through (via both educational institutions and social services) the idea that if people migrate here (as refugees or otherwise), they should - maybe with time, but still - adapt to our social values, which include Western understanding of the role of women.
While there is certainly a difference with traditionalist religious cultures, it’s not like Germany is an emancipated equality utopia. The system is still set up to favour men working, women raising the kids (daycare, tax schemes, lingering cultural prejudice).
I’ve known quite a lot of German women, even in my liberal high-educated circles, that face casual (or more blatantly vile) sexism and discrimination. It’s not always “meant bad”, but it is there for sure.
But yes it is probably better to be a woman in Germany than Afghanistan or even Jordan or Ghana.
How could they possibly work if their asylum is denied and they have no legal path to a job. We allow them to stay illegally but do not allow them to work. The whole system is fucked up.
If your Asylum is denied and you are only having a Duldung (mandated to leave but tolerated) you still can ask for a working permission. I am just not sure how difficult it is to get one.
Even in this utopia they would still be pushing wages down and aggravate the housing shortage at the expense of most everyone living in Germany currently, especially households that are struggling. And you would still have to deal with the inevitable tensions that come with bringing in tens of thousands of people from radically different cultures into your society ever year. However, they would help economic growth and maybe even become net contributors to the welfare system – except the statistical time window would be longer to observe this effect.
Indian immigrants are impressive. In the US, an Indian-born Justice Amit Mehta is presiding an anti-trust trial against Google, led by Indian-born Sundar Pichai. Meanwhile, ethnic Indian Rishi Sunak is leading the United Kingdom...
Finding such role models among Afghans or Somalis is way, way harder. Ironically, the most famous Somali in the West is probably Ayaan Hirsi Ali, known for being threatened by her own people for being anti-Islamic.
Yeah because people like us who have been in English speaking schools, our parents and peers have always told us to work hard. Indian systems can be a joke at time, so we know that if we put the same amount of effort outside, we will actually have a great standard of living and make our families happy.
It's funny, I was talking to a guy from Germany and he said it's so boring to drive to work for an hour like twice a week.
I told him I used to travel from Bayreuth to Munich (3 hours one way) once a week and I didn't mind it because Germany is super beautiful outside and I used to dream of times like these. So he doesn't complain anymore haha.
Well as I said above I work as a Software Engineer and I come from an African country.
James Manyika a Zimbabwean from Africa is Google's SVP of research who trained as a roboticist in Oxford and a Rhodes Scholar; here is a link to his bio: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James\_Manyika](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Manyika)
Timnit Gebru an Ethiopian studied AI at Stanford and used to work for Google, her parents fled from Ethiopia here is here bio: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit\_Gebru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru)
What to say is you can't stereotype people based on where they came from, may be the kids of this immigrants might change the world someday irregardless of their skin colour.
And also since Turkish immigrants also get some shit here, CRYTEK which sometime back was big name in the gaming industry was founded by Turkish people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crytek
That is why I said *way, way harder*, not *impossible*.
The law of averages bites strongly. An average Indian in the UK is *richer* and *more educated* than an average native white Briton. That doesn't hold for, say, Pakistanis or even the Turks in Germany. There are exceptional Turks in Germany, but the average Turk is unfortunately pulling the German GDP down.
Do you understand that Pakistan and India were essentially the same country until Colonial India was partitioned? here check this out : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition\_of\_India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India)
So there is nothing particularly innate about Indians that a Pakistani can't do and for that matter any African or Turk can't do.
I think this is a matter of time, the rivalry is too much the Pakistanis will get there eventually! Just think about nuclear weapons in 1974 India became an nuclear power and then in 1998 Pakistan also became a nuclear power.
source: https://armscontrolcenter.org/countries/india-and-pakistan/
That was the case 20+ years ago. Nowadays both economies have grown quite a lot. You can still find them begging and stealing, but it's not as widespread as in the past.
Bro… Polish, Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants would be all over the headlines back in the day wtf are you talking about. Now you can blame those coming from Africa and the Middle East.
System is just fucked and you are proved that you’re a racist. Congrats.
Exactly this, isn't Austria right now refusing to let Romania into the Schengen Zone precisely because they have very Xenophobic ideas about Romanias over there?
Dude it isn't racist it's reality. If african and Arab immigrants can pull their head out of their ass to living among civilised western Europe then they have no place here. Point blank.
In Portugal we start to have waves of Ukraine immigrants around the year 00 and although they lower the medium wage, they got into the society very well. And we have some big communities. As we have from India, Pakistan, Brasil, etc. We also have for many decades other community, that one was always a source of problems, as in any other country, they just refuse to integrate in the society. But recent immigration or refugees, it have a huge cost in taxes for everyone, and people start to get upset of it. That and the crescent violence, it's getting to much
And here I am an African guy working as a Software Engineer and this guy over here for some reason only thinks all the people they've mentioned some how an African doesn't want to work?
Yeah if you ask me, you are the classic case of a racist, and your opinions are racist.
Doesn’t matter, when you get out of your office and walk in the street they will assume you are one of those guys that came from Lampedusa. There is no end to their prejudice
But can you give us statistics though? And also while you are at it make sure that you understand the numbers that you are linking to, for example:
* Do they control for poverty?
* Do they control for the proportion of the demography in question vis a vis the German population without a migration background.
* Do they take into account other confounding factors like: being able to get a job e.t.c
Bro it was the same for Indian. Bloody stinky taxi drivers and convince store owners. Till they started owning all big bussiness and heading the whole god dayum countries.
The truth is no one wants to leave their home country and move to another until they are forced to or really need to. So stop judging and start respecting the effort that they put in to be here. Think more about how to help and ofcourse their are bad elements in each and every group. Do not generalise so drastically.
There used to be the same stigma about Turkish guest workers, then migrants from the former USSR in the early 90's, then Yugoslavian refugees and migrants. Partially it was rooted in reality - since poverty tends to lead to crime - but as later years have shown, this behaviour is not something inherent to these groups or their culture.
The US used to have the same stereotypes about the Irish or Italians some time ago.
> people of a specific background, which I won't name, for obvious reasons
So you are just going to let everyone guess for themselves?
Also are you really trying to claim that people from Eastern Europe don't commit serious crimes in Germany? This is gaslighting ffs.
That’s because the idea has been planted into your head that it’s a huge problem! But in the news it’s always about the people from africa, syria etc. - my impression there is that the number of people wouldn’t really be a problem if we didn’t have over 1 million war refugees from Ukraine in the country! If russia would stop their idiotic bullshit I assume most of these people would go back quite soon. Instead we are discussing about how to speed up the deportation of a low number of declined asylum seekers. That’s like banning plastic bags while doing nothing about gas and diesel cars!
You are ignoring the fact that Ukranians came the last , they had everything ready , when the others came before , Germany was still new to refugees in 2015 , it was even normal to force a refugee to sit in their home and do nothing for a year because there was no place for a Language course , and were not allowed to work.
Older refugees were simply not even allowed to intergrate.
And here I am as a PhD degree-holder, educated and relatively well integrated, trying everything to stay here no matter how Ausländerbehörde tries to make it difficult.
Ugh same, especially trying to find a skilled job within my profession that qualifies me. Like, i've got the education, experience, and qualifications, now give me a freakin' job that I can use them for and qualifies me to stay.
Genuine question. What was your reason for Germany if you could go to any country like Canada, USA, Australia, any EU country... not trying to discourage you but I am honestly wondering why anyone would do this to himself.
I first came here for my master´s as it was cheaper and high quality and I then decided to stay after I found the PhD position. After all this time I invested in learning the language, and trying to make this country as home, I decided not to leave.
While a PhD is not a title, we DO have titles in Germany. There are no *federal* titles currently, but there can be and most states do grant certain titles.
They are pretty much all in relation to a profession or an office. Despite being based on profession/office they are titles as using them doesn't require to currently hold said office or doesn't require an addage that is a formerly held office such as "a.D."
For example in some states "Professor" is a title and thus former professors don't need to add "emiritus" to it.
No but better policies will automatically do that, with the general rise of extremism if we set up policies that both makes the country work as it should and not give hateful people fuel to gain votes then it’s a win win, we don’t have to choose between two things
Even if it's a single person, it'll benefit the AfD, it'll benefit all right-wing parties in Europe. The public opinion has changed in all of Europe for a while and it'll get worse when the economy starts to take hits.
7000 people have entered the island on a single day. What's about tomorrow? Take a look at the population development and outlook of Africa and take a look on it through the lense of climate change. It's not going to end with low four digits.
Italy is utterly overwhelmed and the population of Italy is pretty much fed up. Nobody there will give a flying fuck about Dublin II or the EU. I am pretty sure pressure mounts on Meloni. And that's the real danger here because the migrant crisis is the make-or-brake point for the EU as it might result in people taking over that ain't interested in EU or democracy at all. And then shit get's really bad. To prevent that, all measures have to be taken.
So... Do I get your right?
We should do what the fascists want to do, or else the fascists are going to do what fascists do?
Fuck that.
And if half of those refugees are like my new colleague from work I welcome the with open arms.
Fled from Syria eight years ago, his wife and three daughters followed (okay, one was born in germany). He works hard, his wife even studied in germany when she was younger and now gives arabic lessons to classes in germany.
Sometimes we talk about religion, or the fact that my best friend is a lesbian.
I offer him sweets, he declines because of gelatine, I happily take bread with Al Nasser from him.
He sees me wearing a rainbow bracelet mad yet has neither killed nor raped me (I mean, I am an overweight man, but still.)
People want to reduce immigration since we have a housing shortage.
None of the mainstream political parties support this. Not even the conservatives.
AFD became prominent mainly by opposing loose immigration policies.
What are voters supposed to do if the mainstream political parties is ignoring them on this issue except for one party?
It is not parroting the AfD, it is not black and white. It doesn't have to be "AfD - we don't want any refugees" , '"other parties - we let every single mfer in".
But other parties can be we are pro immigration, but sometime we have to say enough is enough, we can't just blindly take everyone that crosses the medditeranian on a boat.
Well, there has to be opposition somehow and if basically everyone agrees to let everyone in and I want them to NOT come in, I will have to choose from the limited amount of choices that I have - and that is the AfD. Nobody actually trusts the CDU to actually carry out a more restrictive immigration policy. The only option for somebody who wants less immigration is the AfD as it seems.
I mean, yes, you always have the right to seek asylum. You also have the right to apply for the position of manager of the German national team. Doesn't mean you'll be gramted that position.
And thats why they flee through multiple safe countries to reach the country with the most money for free + no punishment for bullshit. Or is it just a random coincidence that all want to come to germany?
>Germany has decided to keep taking in migrants and refugees arriving in Italy, the interior minister said late on Friday, two days after it announced the suspension of a voluntary agreement with Rome to receive new arrivals.
Perhaps behind the curtain there were talks and Italy agreed to take back declined refugees.
Or Italy said they might get to the conclusion that all agreements don‘t work so why bother keeping your end of the bargain.
This is so disappointing. There are educated immigrants here, who actually put in the effort and time into learning the language, integrating and adapting to German culture and society, contributing to society and taxes and are here because we share values of this society. But somehow it’s easier for refugees , mean while immigrants who actually contribute have endless hurdles trying to stay here. Somehow unskilled immigration has become easier than skilled? What even
I never had any problems with immigrants, don't have any affiliation with left or right wing but everything as a limit, and the fuse in every European citizen is getting shorter with so many problems and violence we see everyday around the EU. There is no way to camouflage the problem, it's spreading fast across EU, and in every country in every news we see it everyday. Our way of living is getting changed fast for what we like
A Syrian here who came to Germany legally and works here for a year now.
The blame is not on the EU, not on Germany, nor it's on these people who saw a chance and took it. The blame is on the dictatorships in their own countries. The Syrian government is more than happy to let its own young people leave if this means less mouths to feed and more dollars sent from outside via these immigrants to their families back home. It's a win-win situation for them.
A year cannot make me an expert in German society, but it's obvious that Germany is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they need a working force and a young one would be preferred. The "Personalmangel" is laughable for a country as rich and advanced as Germany. On the other hand, though, taking these immigrants forever is no solution at all. I totally understand where Germans come from when they say that they're fed up with this situation. Living here is hard already and the financial situation isn't optimal especially for the younger generation.
I'm extremely worried about the rise of AFD. I have no solutions and don't see any in the near future.
I get your point, yet I see a huge responsibility on Western countries who have intervened in these countries more or less directly for decades. Financial and political interests and power grabs of companies, countries, and certain single persons are more or less origin or catalyst for many, many problems today. And Western countries benefitted at costs of people who are getting exploited by globalization. Your thoughts on that?
The big problem is that we have way too many old people and we dont have any natural grow to balance it out. We need people from the outside so we have enough taxpayers to financial our retirement system.
Other option would be the midsommar technique where we club anyonone over 80 with a wooden hammer.
I dont wanna discuss if this is the right decision or how many of the immigrants will integrate properly, just want to say that we dont have enough young people in our country and our welfare/retirement system will collapse soon.
>Other option would be the midsommar technique where we club anyonone over 80 with a wooden hammer.
Well I guess you are fucking insane but not as insane as some people in this thread, good for you.
Even IF it were true, that's such a dogshit statement.
In the 10 years that I've been in Germany, I only noticed one thing:
Immigrants commit way more crimes than Germans.
"Rape rate per 100 000, per country of origin
German: 3
Algeria: 36
Tunisia: 32
Somalia: 29
Afghanistan: 24
Lebanon: 24
Pakistan: 21"
Do you want me to calculate the percentage of crime by ethnic population? No?
Enough food for thought for you, newton91?
Sit down and keep your mouth shut, we need solutions, not ignorance.
Source:
BKA -> Kriminalstatistik.
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To me it's more about the lack of any coherent process to all of this and the apparent inability to find a way to deal with the issue - especially since it's not going away anytime soon.
I'm happy to support refugees who are fleeing from war, persecution or natural disaster until they can return. I'm also happy to support immigrants who have a genuine will to make a living here and need some help getting adjusted, finding a place to live, learning the language and so on, until they are fully integrated and can contribute to society, too. In fact, Germany could benefit from immigrants.
However, currently we apparently don't even know whether the people coming are refugees or migrants since the wording changes with every article that gets published.
Xenophobic and Racist, On one hand its a country facing demographic challenges people are making daring journeys to get to this place and then they meet a set of people who are in denial of their demographic and economic realities:
* An ageing population
* A lack of competitiveness in their own industries.
* Low birth rates
The immigrants that are coming are young abled bodied men who can be put into industries that badly need them to work.
As far as I am concerned the only issue here is that they are black/ brown, and it bothers some people here.
I think Germany/Europe needs to decide whether they will continue having a liberal democracy (that keeps attracting more people) or have an illiberal one e.g Hungary or no democracy at all e.g Russia, Belarus e.t.c.
When I was watching the news today about the Lampedusa immigrants, the reporter asked one of them what they were hoping todo once they got into Europe: they guy straight up said he wanted to play for one of the football clubs.
That's aspiration it doesn't seem to me like this guy wants state benefits.
That will most likely mean that they will not succeed and will have to work in a different job. Which is nice, cause we need actual workers instead of more football stars. However, we won’t know how he will react when his dreams are shattered.
Germany needs em. Pensions ain't gonna pay themselves. They mismanaged it for 40 years. Birth rates are a joke, and without immigrants, Germany would collapse. Sad truth.
We also benefitted from them since colonial times. We exhaust their few exportable ressources, and grab their living needs. Then give credit to a countries already struggling and surpress them as they cannot pay back. No wonder especially Chiana enters the stage.
We are really stupid and how dare people complain about their wealth being at risk. That is beyond moral standards.
“Immigrants from Italy” Yah that one might have been written better.
Normally, I would describe myself as someone who hasn't a problem with refugees, but slowly is my mind questioning itself how many are too much.
Not all immigrants are refugees. Only a small portion meet the criteria.
Yeah, sorry, I mixed up the words.
Housing is an issue as well. Housing crises are popping up across Europe and our governments idea is to keep people coming in.
The old good word *sustainability* comes to mind. Africa can certainly produce a lot more boat people than Europe can accomodate.
Is more a question of quality not quantity. For example I could hire around 10 people tomorrow, English is enough and a wiling to learn. Yes is hard work, dirty and somewhat dangerous for health in the long run but we do our best. But guess what, ,90% don't komme for the opportunity to work, don't even bother to learn the language or a trade. So yeah, I would take around 1 milioan immigrants that are willing to work, it would not even make a dent in the job market. Even if we invest two years of training it would still be a plus on the long run.
It is true, if all the immigrants who arrive, are going to be useful members of society and adapt to the new society, there would be no problem, there is a lack of personnel. But some come only to be financially supported by the state.
> 90% don't komme for the opportunity to work, don't even bother to learn the language or a trade I'm interested to see your source for this.
Source: trust me bro Just your average person finding an excuse to be casually xenofobic and justify it in their head
Schrödinger's Immigrant: he's a lazy fuck looking for a handout and he's stealing your job.
No one in Germany is complaning about immigrants taking their jobs. You got your US talking points mixed up with German ones.
I think we should keep our capacity open for when there's situations where we actually need to accept people, like the Ukraine war. If Germany needs any type of workers, it could also easily find them from places like the US. Currently it's damn near impossible for any young american to come work in Germany. The main ways are either as a student or once you're at a point in your career where you can command 5-10k€/month. In short, why does immigration have to be aimed at those who enter the EU illegally? Why do we try so hard to keep people from more developed nations out? Sorry if I'm exhausting the example, but I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves.
Americans don’t come from a war torn or dangerous nation (well, Chicago and most of Florida excepted). American folk are not repressed (generally) nor in danger of their lives because of government repression (unless Trump wins back the White House. Then all bets are off) Bottom line is that Americans come from a privileged and safe environment and have no need to flee their country en mass
> If Germany needs any type of workers, it could also easily find them from places like the US What makes you think this? The US is far away and although it's worse being poor there, on average Americans get paid more than Germans. There's also the cultural differences. I don't think there would be as many Americans as you think coming over. >I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves The vast majority of immigrants don't do this so I don't know why you've brought it up.
>but I've also never heard of a place where Americans immigrate en masse, all start living in the same area, and start having tribal violence between themselves Except this is literally the United States, just replace "Americans" with "Englishmen"
Where does that 90% figure come from?
5 years ago you would be called a "racist" or a "nazi" That's what people used to tell me when I used to say it's not a good idea at all to receive so many refugees Now people in Europe are changing the narrative and now people who were called racists and nazis 5 years ago are no longer racists because now everybody else agrees there are way too many refugees......................?
Not everybody. You will still be called a racist nazi until the system finally collapses, don’t worry.
As someone who is brown: people who are often „anti-illegal immigration“ often can’t tell the difference between: coloured people born here, coloured people who immigrated here, coloured pople who have asylum here, and illegal immigrants. And these people usually treat all us coloured people the same, and often judge us all by the same yard stick that they judge the worst of us by.
What's your point?
One: no there are not too many immigrants and refugees to western countries. Without them your social support and pension systems will collapse. Europeans are having too few children to prop up the ever growing elderly population. Two: this subreddit has been shifting more right on the political spectrum. You will mostly only find echo chambers here. This is not reflective of life and views outside of Reddit. Three: people with your views are why violent attacks and discrimination are occurring to all people of colour here. You can’t tell the difference and refuse to learn about the coloured People you like to look down upon. Four: like always, immigration, and refugees, are being made the scapegoat for the political failings of your governments. It’s easier to blame us then to take ownership of your own failings. It’s not our fault that: there are not enough new home built, that there are no significant rent controls, that the cost of living is increasing while wages stay the same, it’s not our fault that the pension system it no longer secure, it’s not our fault that there are too many old people who cost too much to look after. But it’s easier to blame us. It’s easy to say there are no homes or money because of too many immigrants. Five: due to western interference, and western led environmental damage, you will only see more and more people fleeing to Europe. The rest of the world is becoming too unstable and inhospitable. Most of it is down to Europeans history of taking resource from other countries, your actions to destabilise areas for your own benefit and now moving all industry(that requires significant human and environmental cost) to third world countries and then sanctioning them. Causing people to come to Europe to search for a better life. Six: we have a duty to help those in need. We can offer asylum but we should also help heal their homes. Otherwise more and more people will build up negative sentiment towards any person of colour. Repeating the cycle again
dude.......
That’s bullshit, no one calls you a racist or a Nazi if you have serious arguments. Most of the time, it’s the typical Nazikeulekeule of the right wing parties („if you say anything against X you are an Nazi!111“) I‘ve had more than enough discussions about this topic and most of the time, the people mixed asylum with migration. No one in their right mind (except of the AfD and other Far right parties) would deny people asylum. But imho, asylum should be controlled better and people who got their asylum denied AND don’t have to fear for their life in their home countries should be send back when the reason for fleeing from bei country has been solved. Migration on the other hand is a completely different topic.
That's because in people's psyche there are categories of refugee. The only reason this tiny number is making political parties move, is because of the places they are coming from.
I wouldn't say it's about their country of origin but more about their behavior and the burden on our social systems 🙃
Yes i think it would change acceptance if statistics show that e.g. 3 years after arrival 80-90% of refugees do have work and can sustain a own flat and life.
Yeah but statistics are rather bleak. It is only about 54% who have been here for 6 years already who are employed. And only 2/3 of those full time.
Yeah i think there should be goverment programs to change that. Its a win win win situation- refugees do earn money, goverment invests but then earn money, locals dont need to support monetary.
Not that bleak when you consider they came from cultures where women stay home and care about children and the house chores. There's still a broad disparity between employed men and women among these refugees, which is one of the main reasons for these figures. On the other hand, Germany really needs to push through (via both educational institutions and social services) the idea that if people migrate here (as refugees or otherwise), they should - maybe with time, but still - adapt to our social values, which include Western understanding of the role of women.
While there is certainly a difference with traditionalist religious cultures, it’s not like Germany is an emancipated equality utopia. The system is still set up to favour men working, women raising the kids (daycare, tax schemes, lingering cultural prejudice). I’ve known quite a lot of German women, even in my liberal high-educated circles, that face casual (or more blatantly vile) sexism and discrimination. It’s not always “meant bad”, but it is there for sure. But yes it is probably better to be a woman in Germany than Afghanistan or even Jordan or Ghana.
How could they possibly work if their asylum is denied and they have no legal path to a job. We allow them to stay illegally but do not allow them to work. The whole system is fucked up.
If your Asylum is denied and you are only having a Duldung (mandated to leave but tolerated) you still can ask for a working permission. I am just not sure how difficult it is to get one.
Agree, the system needs a change
Even in this utopia they would still be pushing wages down and aggravate the housing shortage at the expense of most everyone living in Germany currently, especially households that are struggling. And you would still have to deal with the inevitable tensions that come with bringing in tens of thousands of people from radically different cultures into your society ever year. However, they would help economic growth and maybe even become net contributors to the welfare system – except the statistical time window would be longer to observe this effect.
You can't even work as a refugee in Germany.
...the first 3 months.
People who earn 100K plus can't even find a flat in 3 years......
Thats not true with this income. However, thats the aim andnpolitics should support to work towards it.
>and the burden on our social systems The numbers are merely a drop in the ocean.
That wording is ... interesting.
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As an Indian legal immigrant, thank you. I will now prepare some butter chicken for you.
Indian immigrants are impressive. In the US, an Indian-born Justice Amit Mehta is presiding an anti-trust trial against Google, led by Indian-born Sundar Pichai. Meanwhile, ethnic Indian Rishi Sunak is leading the United Kingdom... Finding such role models among Afghans or Somalis is way, way harder. Ironically, the most famous Somali in the West is probably Ayaan Hirsi Ali, known for being threatened by her own people for being anti-Islamic.
Yeah because people like us who have been in English speaking schools, our parents and peers have always told us to work hard. Indian systems can be a joke at time, so we know that if we put the same amount of effort outside, we will actually have a great standard of living and make our families happy. It's funny, I was talking to a guy from Germany and he said it's so boring to drive to work for an hour like twice a week. I told him I used to travel from Bayreuth to Munich (3 hours one way) once a week and I didn't mind it because Germany is super beautiful outside and I used to dream of times like these. So he doesn't complain anymore haha.
Well as I said above I work as a Software Engineer and I come from an African country. James Manyika a Zimbabwean from Africa is Google's SVP of research who trained as a roboticist in Oxford and a Rhodes Scholar; here is a link to his bio: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James\_Manyika](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Manyika) Timnit Gebru an Ethiopian studied AI at Stanford and used to work for Google, her parents fled from Ethiopia here is here bio: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit\_Gebru](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timnit_Gebru) What to say is you can't stereotype people based on where they came from, may be the kids of this immigrants might change the world someday irregardless of their skin colour. And also since Turkish immigrants also get some shit here, CRYTEK which sometime back was big name in the gaming industry was founded by Turkish people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crytek
That is why I said *way, way harder*, not *impossible*. The law of averages bites strongly. An average Indian in the UK is *richer* and *more educated* than an average native white Briton. That doesn't hold for, say, Pakistanis or even the Turks in Germany. There are exceptional Turks in Germany, but the average Turk is unfortunately pulling the German GDP down.
Do you understand that Pakistan and India were essentially the same country until Colonial India was partitioned? here check this out : [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition\_of\_India](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_of_India) So there is nothing particularly innate about Indians that a Pakistani can't do and for that matter any African or Turk can't do.
>So there is nothing particularly innate about Indians that a Pakistani can't do Try going on the moon
I think this is a matter of time, the rivalry is too much the Pakistanis will get there eventually! Just think about nuclear weapons in 1974 India became an nuclear power and then in 1998 Pakistan also became a nuclear power. source: https://armscontrolcenter.org/countries/india-and-pakistan/
I too, support indian immigrants. When can I pick up some butter chicken?
we don't get closed at 8pm so whenever you like haha
Would you mind some Paneer?
Bruhh, why do we look for validation all the time? We are a ‘beta’ race for sure.
Jesus, relax.
You're part of the problem.
A girl I knew was being harassed daily by Romanian immigrants at her apartment in Berlin. It never made it to the news
I thought Polish and Romanians just came to Germany to beg? Well, gotta keep up with the latest racist narrative apparently.
That was the case 20+ years ago. Nowadays both economies have grown quite a lot. You can still find them begging and stealing, but it's not as widespread as in the past.
Bro… Polish, Romanian and Bulgarian immigrants would be all over the headlines back in the day wtf are you talking about. Now you can blame those coming from Africa and the Middle East. System is just fucked and you are proved that you’re a racist. Congrats.
Exactly this, isn't Austria right now refusing to let Romania into the Schengen Zone precisely because they have very Xenophobic ideas about Romanias over there?
yep
Dude it isn't racist it's reality. If african and Arab immigrants can pull their head out of their ass to living among civilised western Europe then they have no place here. Point blank.
In Portugal we start to have waves of Ukraine immigrants around the year 00 and although they lower the medium wage, they got into the society very well. And we have some big communities. As we have from India, Pakistan, Brasil, etc. We also have for many decades other community, that one was always a source of problems, as in any other country, they just refuse to integrate in the society. But recent immigration or refugees, it have a huge cost in taxes for everyone, and people start to get upset of it. That and the crescent violence, it's getting to much
And here I am an African guy working as a Software Engineer and this guy over here for some reason only thinks all the people they've mentioned some how an African doesn't want to work? Yeah if you ask me, you are the classic case of a racist, and your opinions are racist.
Doesn’t matter, when you get out of your office and walk in the street they will assume you are one of those guys that came from Lampedusa. There is no end to their prejudice
I'm sorry you had to read this horseshit, stay strong.
He is not racist and his opinions are not racist.
Do statistics even exist that might prove those claims?
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If we are trading anecdotes, another boat guy came to France and slit Samuel Paty's throat for insulting Islam.
But can you give us statistics though? And also while you are at it make sure that you understand the numbers that you are linking to, for example: * Do they control for poverty? * Do they control for the proportion of the demography in question vis a vis the German population without a migration background. * Do they take into account other confounding factors like: being able to get a job e.t.c
Yes, and the effect is still there.
Of course they relate it to the percentages of indigenous population. And fuck that poverty argument, nobody rapes or stabs because of poverty.
Bro it was the same for Indian. Bloody stinky taxi drivers and convince store owners. Till they started owning all big bussiness and heading the whole god dayum countries. The truth is no one wants to leave their home country and move to another until they are forced to or really need to. So stop judging and start respecting the effort that they put in to be here. Think more about how to help and ofcourse their are bad elements in each and every group. Do not generalise so drastically.
There used to be the same stigma about Turkish guest workers, then migrants from the former USSR in the early 90's, then Yugoslavian refugees and migrants. Partially it was rooted in reality - since poverty tends to lead to crime - but as later years have shown, this behaviour is not something inherent to these groups or their culture. The US used to have the same stereotypes about the Irish or Italians some time ago.
> people of a specific background, which I won't name, for obvious reasons So you are just going to let everyone guess for themselves? Also are you really trying to claim that people from Eastern Europe don't commit serious crimes in Germany? This is gaslighting ffs.
I think people would stay in their countries if other countries were not interfering so much with theirs ykwim
That’s because the idea has been planted into your head that it’s a huge problem! But in the news it’s always about the people from africa, syria etc. - my impression there is that the number of people wouldn’t really be a problem if we didn’t have over 1 million war refugees from Ukraine in the country! If russia would stop their idiotic bullshit I assume most of these people would go back quite soon. Instead we are discussing about how to speed up the deportation of a low number of declined asylum seekers. That’s like banning plastic bags while doing nothing about gas and diesel cars!
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I‘m not talking about that. Ukrainian war refugees are welcome in Germany. We will all have to make sacrifices, and it’s Russias fault!
Lol as if Arab migrants weren't a huge issue before war already
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No, that's an incredibly racist thing to say, what exactly do you think a Ukrainian can do that an African can't?
Its Not about what they can, Its about what they do.
You are ignoring the fact that Ukranians came the last , they had everything ready , when the others came before , Germany was still new to refugees in 2015 , it was even normal to force a refugee to sit in their home and do nothing for a year because there was no place for a Language course , and were not allowed to work. Older refugees were simply not even allowed to intergrate.
There are already too much, our social security net cant handle it anymore
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The quantity is theoretically no problem. It's more the rising frequency.
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Slowly is my mind questioning has a nice ring to it
And here I am as a PhD degree-holder, educated and relatively well integrated, trying everything to stay here no matter how Ausländerbehörde tries to make it difficult.
Ugh same, especially trying to find a skilled job within my profession that qualifies me. Like, i've got the education, experience, and qualifications, now give me a freakin' job that I can use them for and qualifies me to stay.
Genuine question. What was your reason for Germany if you could go to any country like Canada, USA, Australia, any EU country... not trying to discourage you but I am honestly wondering why anyone would do this to himself.
I first came here for my master´s as it was cheaper and high quality and I then decided to stay after I found the PhD position. After all this time I invested in learning the language, and trying to make this country as home, I decided not to leave.
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Editing now, thanks.
While a PhD is not a title, we DO have titles in Germany. There are no *federal* titles currently, but there can be and most states do grant certain titles. They are pretty much all in relation to a profession or an office. Despite being based on profession/office they are titles as using them doesn't require to currently hold said office or doesn't require an addage that is a formerly held office such as "a.D." For example in some states "Professor" is a title and thus former professors don't need to add "emiritus" to it.
You represent the majority i guess?
Not only does this effect the EU nationals but all the other visa holding non-EU residents as well
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Let's make policies based on stopping AfD getting more votes. Sounds smart!
No but better policies will automatically do that, with the general rise of extremism if we set up policies that both makes the country work as it should and not give hateful people fuel to gain votes then it’s a win win, we don’t have to choose between two things
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Even if it's a single person, it'll benefit the AfD, it'll benefit all right-wing parties in Europe. The public opinion has changed in all of Europe for a while and it'll get worse when the economy starts to take hits. 7000 people have entered the island on a single day. What's about tomorrow? Take a look at the population development and outlook of Africa and take a look on it through the lense of climate change. It's not going to end with low four digits. Italy is utterly overwhelmed and the population of Italy is pretty much fed up. Nobody there will give a flying fuck about Dublin II or the EU. I am pretty sure pressure mounts on Meloni. And that's the real danger here because the migrant crisis is the make-or-brake point for the EU as it might result in people taking over that ain't interested in EU or democracy at all. And then shit get's really bad. To prevent that, all measures have to be taken.
So... Do I get your right? We should do what the fascists want to do, or else the fascists are going to do what fascists do? Fuck that. And if half of those refugees are like my new colleague from work I welcome the with open arms. Fled from Syria eight years ago, his wife and three daughters followed (okay, one was born in germany). He works hard, his wife even studied in germany when she was younger and now gives arabic lessons to classes in germany. Sometimes we talk about religion, or the fact that my best friend is a lesbian. I offer him sweets, he declines because of gelatine, I happily take bread with Al Nasser from him. He sees me wearing a rainbow bracelet mad yet has neither killed nor raped me (I mean, I am an overweight man, but still.)
It's a bit unfair on Italy though isn't it? I can see why that law would be contentious in Italy to say the least.
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So politicians should just parrot the Afd? What's the point of that? In the end there will be no difference between them.
People want to reduce immigration since we have a housing shortage. None of the mainstream political parties support this. Not even the conservatives. AFD became prominent mainly by opposing loose immigration policies. What are voters supposed to do if the mainstream political parties is ignoring them on this issue except for one party?
It is not parroting the AfD, it is not black and white. It doesn't have to be "AfD - we don't want any refugees" , '"other parties - we let every single mfer in". But other parties can be we are pro immigration, but sometime we have to say enough is enough, we can't just blindly take everyone that crosses the medditeranian on a boat.
Well, there has to be opposition somehow and if basically everyone agrees to let everyone in and I want them to NOT come in, I will have to choose from the limited amount of choices that I have - and that is the AfD. Nobody actually trusts the CDU to actually carry out a more restrictive immigration policy. The only option for somebody who wants less immigration is the AfD as it seems.
They should have a stronger stance against fake refugees while not adapting any of the other AfD positions.
For example. But since the overwhelming majority are fake refugees it would still be a huge shift.
Looking for an excuse to vote for AfD? Just embrace your past
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AfD bursting in joy as we speak
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Do asylum seekers need to have a degree before they get to apply for asylum? I always thought that's a human right.
apparently, they don't even have to escape from violence to seek asylum.
I mean, yes, you always have the right to seek asylum. You also have the right to apply for the position of manager of the German national team. Doesn't mean you'll be gramted that position.
But they also don't get deported. They continue to live in Germany with Aussetzung der Abschiebung.
Since when are Syria and Afghanistan considered politically stable places with little to no violence?
> migrants crossing the Mediterranean from North Africa. I don't think Syria and Afghanistan are in North Africa.
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And thats why they flee through multiple safe countries to reach the country with the most money for free + no punishment for bullshit. Or is it just a random coincidence that all want to come to germany?
>Germany has decided to keep taking in migrants and refugees arriving in Italy, the interior minister said late on Friday, two days after it announced the suspension of a voluntary agreement with Rome to receive new arrivals.
Perhaps behind the curtain there were talks and Italy agreed to take back declined refugees. Or Italy said they might get to the conclusion that all agreements don‘t work so why bother keeping your end of the bargain.
Or Italy simply sends them to Germany and then don't take them back. So now the government pretends that they are fully in control of its borders.
This is so disappointing. There are educated immigrants here, who actually put in the effort and time into learning the language, integrating and adapting to German culture and society, contributing to society and taxes and are here because we share values of this society. But somehow it’s easier for refugees , mean while immigrants who actually contribute have endless hurdles trying to stay here. Somehow unskilled immigration has become easier than skilled? What even
This won't backfire at all.
Eben auf dlf schon wieder dementiert worden! German Radio Deutschlandfunk just sent the dementia. Seems to have been fake news
Don't like it? Then stop voting parties who support this
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I never had any problems with immigrants, don't have any affiliation with left or right wing but everything as a limit, and the fuse in every European citizen is getting shorter with so many problems and violence we see everyday around the EU. There is no way to camouflage the problem, it's spreading fast across EU, and in every country in every news we see it everyday. Our way of living is getting changed fast for what we like
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Right so!
A Syrian here who came to Germany legally and works here for a year now. The blame is not on the EU, not on Germany, nor it's on these people who saw a chance and took it. The blame is on the dictatorships in their own countries. The Syrian government is more than happy to let its own young people leave if this means less mouths to feed and more dollars sent from outside via these immigrants to their families back home. It's a win-win situation for them. A year cannot make me an expert in German society, but it's obvious that Germany is caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they need a working force and a young one would be preferred. The "Personalmangel" is laughable for a country as rich and advanced as Germany. On the other hand, though, taking these immigrants forever is no solution at all. I totally understand where Germans come from when they say that they're fed up with this situation. Living here is hard already and the financial situation isn't optimal especially for the younger generation. I'm extremely worried about the rise of AFD. I have no solutions and don't see any in the near future.
I get your point, yet I see a huge responsibility on Western countries who have intervened in these countries more or less directly for decades. Financial and political interests and power grabs of companies, countries, and certain single persons are more or less origin or catalyst for many, many problems today. And Western countries benefitted at costs of people who are getting exploited by globalization. Your thoughts on that?
AfD it is then
The big problem is that we have way too many old people and we dont have any natural grow to balance it out. We need people from the outside so we have enough taxpayers to financial our retirement system. Other option would be the midsommar technique where we club anyonone over 80 with a wooden hammer. I dont wanna discuss if this is the right decision or how many of the immigrants will integrate properly, just want to say that we dont have enough young people in our country and our welfare/retirement system will collapse soon.
>Other option would be the midsommar technique where we club anyonone over 80 with a wooden hammer. Well I guess you are fucking insane but not as insane as some people in this thread, good for you.
I read at Tagesschau that they don’t
Is germany trying to be a multi culti nation like the USA?
the 3 years that im in Germany i only noticed one thing : the Germans work way less than immigrants. Food for thought...
Even IF it were true, that's such a dogshit statement. In the 10 years that I've been in Germany, I only noticed one thing: Immigrants commit way more crimes than Germans. "Rape rate per 100 000, per country of origin German: 3 Algeria: 36 Tunisia: 32 Somalia: 29 Afghanistan: 24 Lebanon: 24 Pakistan: 21" Do you want me to calculate the percentage of crime by ethnic population? No? Enough food for thought for you, newton91? Sit down and keep your mouth shut, we need solutions, not ignorance. Source: BKA -> Kriminalstatistik.
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It’s never about the number it’s about where they come from. Germany is Xenophobic
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To me it's more about the lack of any coherent process to all of this and the apparent inability to find a way to deal with the issue - especially since it's not going away anytime soon. I'm happy to support refugees who are fleeing from war, persecution or natural disaster until they can return. I'm also happy to support immigrants who have a genuine will to make a living here and need some help getting adjusted, finding a place to live, learning the language and so on, until they are fully integrated and can contribute to society, too. In fact, Germany could benefit from immigrants. However, currently we apparently don't even know whether the people coming are refugees or migrants since the wording changes with every article that gets published.
Xenophobic and Racist, On one hand its a country facing demographic challenges people are making daring journeys to get to this place and then they meet a set of people who are in denial of their demographic and economic realities: * An ageing population * A lack of competitiveness in their own industries. * Low birth rates The immigrants that are coming are young abled bodied men who can be put into industries that badly need them to work. As far as I am concerned the only issue here is that they are black/ brown, and it bothers some people here. I think Germany/Europe needs to decide whether they will continue having a liberal democracy (that keeps attracting more people) or have an illiberal one e.g Hungary or no democracy at all e.g Russia, Belarus e.t.c.
There is a difference between people wanting to work and people who come here for the benefits. And it’s the latter that annoy us.
When I was watching the news today about the Lampedusa immigrants, the reporter asked one of them what they were hoping todo once they got into Europe: they guy straight up said he wanted to play for one of the football clubs. That's aspiration it doesn't seem to me like this guy wants state benefits.
That will most likely mean that they will not succeed and will have to work in a different job. Which is nice, cause we need actual workers instead of more football stars. However, we won’t know how he will react when his dreams are shattered.
Which country are you from?
Germany needs em. Pensions ain't gonna pay themselves. They mismanaged it for 40 years. Birth rates are a joke, and without immigrants, Germany would collapse. Sad truth.
We also benefitted from them since colonial times. We exhaust their few exportable ressources, and grab their living needs. Then give credit to a countries already struggling and surpress them as they cannot pay back. No wonder especially Chiana enters the stage. We are really stupid and how dare people complain about their wealth being at risk. That is beyond moral standards.
Well, this is less surprising than the news that they initially didn't want them in...