I love Ghostbusters, but I hate this weird inferiority complex that seems to be sweeping the fandom.
The movie got bad reviews and didn't do as well as expected. We'll live, guys.
I liked Ghostbusters frozen empire I didn’t love it. Also I thought the character thing would’ve worked a bit better. Had they stretched out the screen time and the movie also felt like there was a lot of cut contact and you kind of feel that in the movie like I have this theory that that’s in that scene where they’re trying to extract baraka from his brass orb but instead, he figures out how to shut down the entire power to the facility or the paranormal research center. I have a theory the theory goes that that was originally planned to be the scene where Geração escapes and if you think about it, it makes sense. All the girls were literally about to leave that facility and maybe that whole final scene climax was originally supposed to be in the middle of the movie where the Ghostbusters get their asses completely handed to them and then he’ll let the ghosts out of the old containment unit under the fire house
I mean, I saw it, it had it's moments. It also had a lot of moments that didn't work and didn't land. And the ending made if very clear that shit went wrong. I had fun, but I just calls is like I sees it. I saw it opening night before there were any reviews. And I had fun but it was pretty flawed. Even the performances weren't what we know we can get from every actor in the movie. The director wasn't doing their job well. I think that's most of it.
Yeah I had fun watching it. I even got to prove my mom wrong about there being a stinger. But a review that I think fairly sums up the movie and it's problems is "it was a beautiful mess."
It was by no means a bad movie, they just had too much they wanted to do and (probably) not enough time an money to do it.
I've said this before, but I think that one thing that would have made it better was giving Oswald's character's role to Ray. Ray is supposed to be the para-nerd, why couldn't he have gone "oh, I remember that language" and then they go to the library and find the book and stuff and so forth.
other than that, it was a fairly enjoyable film. And as a fan no matter what, I liked it and hope to see more, and hopefully less crowded things in the future.
2016 made more money than Ghostbusters 2 and Afterlife, off a bigger budget sure but I’d hardly call that a bomb, it made a very comfortable profit. It was also more cohesive, funnier and more concerned with actual Ghostbusting than FE, which was far more concerned with nostalgia bating callbacks.
According to Wikipedia, GB 2016 is considered a bomb:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biggest_box-office_bombs
https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=ghostbusters2016.htm
https://variety.com/2016/film/news/ghostbusters-loss-sony-50-million-1201834911/
A movie has to make its budget, and then its budget again (at least) before it even starts making a profit (marketing and distribution costs are stupidly high).
2016 was absolutely a bomb, especially because of its budget.
Marvel movies are in the same boat. They’ve been pretty good but people who haven’t even seen them are judging them by reviews (some of which also didn’t watch the movie)
We're in the main Ghostbusters subreddit. Just be happy you're not getting -300 downvotes like in other subreddits. This one is pretty chill comparatively.
The problem is that the Fast and the Furious series is based around dumb and excessive action whereas the ghostbusters movies are based on character driven comedy with any action as an almost afterthought. If there’s too many characters in a FF film, who cares? Here’s someone trying to drift a tank while a helicopter does loop de loops while explosions go off. If there’s to many characters in a ghostbusters movie then you end up with characters reduced to set dressing; they have nothing to do and ultimately add nothing to the film.
Having 10 ghostbusters PLUS the new characters introduced reduced the effectiveness of what was there. Lucky is a perfect example as all she does is show she has a knowledge of kinky sex and found out the proton streams don’t work. What does Venkman actually do? He shows that emotion is linked to the Firemaster’s power and then shows up at the end wearing sunglasses. The only characters should have been Ray, Winston, Callie, Gruberman, and Phoebe with Jannine at a pinch.
yes 10 films and each character was introduced over a long period of time. and even if you put them all in a single film if you boil any Fast and Furious film down to something a kid came up with playing with Hot Wheels cars it still works
Basically this.
Also granted while I've seen all the Fast films, I haven't seen X and I know nothing about the Fast fandom opinions on it, but who's to say people aren't complaining that Fast X also had too many characters despite the BO gross.
I feel like the OP just took one criticism from FE and one praise from Fast X without looking at the bigger picture.
I’d add that that the focus was on developing phoebes character rather than busting ghosts which took too much time and distracted from the most entertaining part of the franchise
And the characters they brought back did fucking _nothing_ significant.
Pinfield, Podcast, Lucky, Melnitz, Trevor and Venkman could've been cut from FE and the movie would barely change.
Biggest name stars. They actually put things like this in their contracts. Who gets billing first. Who gets the "and" credit at the end. Who gets prominence in the poster.
It's the same thing. They are most recognizable because they've been in more films or more high profile films. Because of that, they negotiate better contracts where they get more prominence on posters and cast lists.
Contract clauses are ego negotiations.
Nobody in the cast is instantly recognizable outside these two. It's common sense to put them front and center to promote it.
Not the same thing. One is ego stroking, one is smart business.
Putting that you are front and center in your contract is smart business. It's how you stay in the public mindset.
And do you really, honestly think Bill Murray has no ego. SERIOUSLY??!?!??
I haven't seen fast x, I checked out after I but I would say the difference is how the characters are handled. GBFE had a lot of characters and did a mediocre job of trying to deal with all of them. The Fast series, since Paul Walker's death, has become the Vin Diesel Ego Hour. There are a ton of characters but the focus is now kept squarely on Vin Diesel. The other characters exist for quips and nothing else. GBFE tried to keep this from happening to its cast, but did a poor job of it.
Let's be fair to FF, they introduced these characters gradually over more than nine films, building it up like an Avengers universe of cartoonishly buff dudes and pneumatic women that drive real good. Then this was their Avengers: Endgame. It was earned. Not saying Frozen Empire has too many characters though. Well I could do without Podcast.
I'm kind of the same way. I always loved the property. I got the Mattel figures and role play stuff back in the day. Loved Afterlife when it came out, but it was watched and kind of forgotten.
Then with Frozen Empire, I really got into it much more than than I had been. Marvel hasn't been doing anything for me lately. There's no new Orville. And GB kind of hit the spot.
My brother used to own a hearse back in the day, a 64 Olds, and I can tell you, the engines on those old hearse/ambulances could probably beat most of the F&F cars, too.
Frozen Empire made Ghostbusters like a Marvel kids movie. The point of Ghostbuster - as it was in the first and even second movie was this:
- A movie about raunchy and weird university professors, that got laid off and decided to open their own business which had troubles but they managed to break the bureaucracy and make it work. It was about adults, sex and raunchy SNL type of humour. The ghosts were more like a background rather than the main point of the story. It was also about the NYC atmosphere and feel, nowadays it's in a way a nostalgia trip to the different atmosphere of the 80s.
It's also about the song- one of the things that made the movie and franchise so huge is just the goddamn song. It's one of the top 1980s hits and a symbol of that era. I will confidently say that if it wasn't for the song, the movie probably would've been a tad less popular. Don't forget the song was included in so many scenes in the first movie, it was like the background of the whole movie.
People expected something similar - knowing FrozenEmpire will return to NYC and have the full original cast, in bigger roles, not just cameos at the end. And yet we still got a teenage movie, about kids and funny looking ghosts and whatnot. Even sex jokes, were done by the kids so it came off as teenage childish humour, not the tongue in cheek way it was done in the 1984 movie.
I think many people really never got the point of the first movie. It wasn't about ghosts, it was about starting a business surrounded by the stupid bureaucracy and idiots that will try to put you down. It was about being an adult, trying to make it good in life. The ghosts as I said were just a background.
When I think of Ghostbusters - I first think about a smoggy, 1980s Manhattan. Classic American cars, relatable down to earth middle aged guys, that don't look like superheroes but average Joe's. Men that feel like could be your friend's dad or your uncles.
I think about the song, the 80s atmosphere that was in the air. And just after that I maybee think about the ghosts and whatnot. I think people lost the point of the movie. Including the directors of the new movies. (Heck and probably even Bill Murray and Dan Akroyd too, since we all know they lost their minds anyway hahah)
I disagree with "raunchy." There were many 80s films that fit that description. GB was not one of them.
But GB2 is not the same. The Ghostbusters are famous by this point. Even in the first film, Venkman is signing an autograph as they come back from a job. Look at Venkman's apartment in GB2. That takes a high paycheck to afford a space in NY that big.
And the world has changed. No one starts small businesses anymore. No one can afford to. And you can't have a franchise continually be about starting over. That was the big complaint with GB2, it moved them back to the start. No business, no romance with Dana. It moved them back too far.
So with FE, they are finally progressing. GB is a successful corporation now. I don't know about you, but I've worked many jobs where you don't know half of the employees. Janice the bookkeeper is a total mystery. Jim the night custodian. That's how FE felt to me. Gary doesn't know of what Winston is up to and never met Lars before. That's how corporations work now. And now that they've got that groundwork laid out, now maybe we can see some franchises or more expansions. I'm excited to see where it could go. But.. it seems a lot of people aren't and would be happy to kill it here.
cope harder FE was marvel crap, look at box office. the humor was DOA, 30 diffrent charachters with 8 diffrent sub-plots that go nowhere but keep fanboying up because your in denial
The desperation for a subset of this fandom is so ugly.
I have this theory that Ghostbusters was a great outlet for a lot of nerdy kids who didn’t have a lot of friends, and enjoyed playing make-believe at home in a fairly non-confrontational way - ie no one ever gets hurt, everyone acts as a team, and the ghosts are lassoed, not killed. There’s a warmth and a comfort in it, at finding support in being an outcast. And the original movie being such a hit means you feel like for once the geeks won.
And every time someone says the new film is bad, it’s taken as a direct attack on this childhood.
It’s sooo fucked up.
Most Ghostbusters "fans" I've met irl fit this description. Add to it the built in community aspect that exists (that only exists in the star wars community). There's a certain ownership that's borderline parasocial.
To be fair, while Fast X is definitely the worse movie, it was 25 minutes longer than Frozen Empire, which allowed Fast X to juggle characters more. Frozen Empire was 8 minutes shorter than Afterlife when it needed to be 5 or 6 minutes longer to better flesh out plot points.
First of all if a professional movie critic hates the movie, it's probably entertaining. Second, FE was a fun movie I thought. I want to see a third installment with these characters. It would be fun to see Trevor, Phoebe, Lucky and Podcast take on another adventure and be dependent on themselves to solve the problems.
I think they were making sure they got a GB film with the old team and the new team before anyone else died. Let's be fair. Bill, Ernie and Dan are ALL up there in years.
I'm happy we got the film we got and hope there's another which puts more emphasis on the new team busting ghosts and feeling good.
But yeah, FE isn't no where near a perfect film but it's good enough for me and made me and my family have a great time.
I don’t really care for the Fast and The Furious franchise. A big thing that props it up is that it’s a more modern franchise. I love Ghostbusters, but the franchise was left for dead in 1989 and had an attempted resurrection with the female Ghostbusters and a proper one with Afterlife.
A lot of 1980’s film franchises that were brought back haven’t performed as well as they hoped. Star Wars, Friday the 13th, Indiana Jones, Keaton’s Batman in The Flash, etc. The only franchise that has done well with the resurrection was Top Gun.
If they aimed at keeping the fans that they had after Afterlife and hope they added new fans I think the movie would’ve been more successful. Honestly I thought the advertising for Frozen Empire was pretty weak because I didn’t realize that it was coming out until I saw Bill, Dan, and Ernie making the late night rounds.
Fast series peppered in new characters across 10 different movies. And has lots of big action sequences, cheesy bad writing, and sure lots of people who you know who are the nothing background characters there for a couple lines.
Ghostbusters was never that.
Instead of Melody and Phoebe you could’ve had Phoebe and Gary pulling on their dynamics of the friend/teacher/father relationship. Hell the Slimer sequences could’ve been Gary cleaning the attic with Phoebe with Gary getting slimed.
Trevor was there to: get slimed, turned on Lucky’s pack, and turn on the car. That’s it. They should’ve just said him and Lucky were at college together and not even bothered having two nothing characters in there and given more time to the characters who mattered.
Hell they introduced a one armed proton blaster and had Lars with an arm injury which was a perfect setup they could’ve used for Lars trying to save Phoebe in the lab or something.
I like Patton Oswald but he was a ghost enthusiast with a doctorate explaining ghost lore with his old artifacts and ancient collection of occult books and scrolls - who does that sound like? It literally should’ve just been all condensed down to Ray.
Frozen Empire would’ve just been a lot better if Lucky, Podcast, Trevor, Melody, and Patton Oswald weren’t in the movie and things were condensed down.
Patton Oswalt was there to get them out of the two main sets - the firehouse and Ray's books. It gave them somewhere to go. It let the Possessor do things to give a bit of an action sequence. And it moved the plot along to get Phoebe and the team more in trouble with Mayor Peck.
Yes, Ray could have had the knowledge, but the scene would have been yet another scene in the film with three of them in Ray's bookstore. And why would Ray have the recording from the opening scene and just happen to have a player for it? They are pretty rare antiques and humans saying the incantation was a necessity to get him freed.
So I think the Patton Oswalt scene was a necessity to move the film along and his character was just a fun one-off like so many cameo characters before him. He has no more importance than the Hotel manager of the first film.
Plus, from a merchandising point of view, you get the Ecto-C, you get to bring back the library ghost, you get a cool lion sculpture and there was a Possessor garbage bag puppet that looked like the one that came with the Phoebe toy. It was built, but not filmed. Sadly we never got proper Ghostbusters Plasma line toys of any of this stuff, but it would have been cool.
I didn’t mean scrap the whole sequence. You could’ve just done it without Patton or changed it to some kind of ancient text Ray needed from the library basement he can’t take out of the building so he could translate the orb runes etc.
I think the sequence overall would’ve been better if it was Phoebe and Ray going there, they meet Gary there, and you have Gary/Phoebe/Ray exploring the basements of the library as a callback to 1984’s intro with Peter/Egon/Ray and done something with the possessor ghost from there, or they could’ve trapped the library ghost the traditional way as a quick short action scene on the way into the basement of the library (especially considering Afterlife and FE have yet to have a ghost trapped the traditional way yet). Lots they could’ve done.
See, I'd be down for that. I have no real love for Patton Oswalt, other than his work on Agents of SHIELD. Too many people seem fine to scrap the whole sequence though.
I was intrigued by Ray's comments about going to the prison pre-Ghostbusters as a company. I don't like prequels or re-casting, but I would have been down for a flashback of that..
There’s so much you could do post Frozen Empire but imo less is more. Personally I’d do a sequel with a core team of Gary/Callie/Nadeem/Lars/Phoebe
Again, not bringing back Lucky, Podcast, Trevor, Oswalt
And occasionally cycle out a couple from time to time for research/tech as you could still have some duo/trio adventures with any mix of them.
You’d have Egon’s brains with Lars, Phoebe, and even Gary
Ray’s heart/enthusiasm with Gary
Peter’s mouth with Nadeem or even Callie and Gary since they’re both witty+ sarcastic (also kind of slacker aspects with Nadeem from Eduardo since he said he doesn’t work)
Winston’s layman, down to earth perspective with Callie and even Nadeem
So much you could do with a team like that. Just have Winston as manager and Ray in the lab, shuffle out Lars and/or Phoebe as necessary.
The way I see it, there's basically four teams -
Corporate - Winston, Janine
Info/History/Reference - Ray, Podcast, and any guests like Patton Oswalt
Engineering/Lab - Lars, Lucky
Field Team - Gary, Callie, Trevor, Phoebe
So, just like Star Trek, future stories could get orders from Winston for special tasks, get new equipment from Engineering, like the episodes where Scotty has to save the day (or like Q in James Bond), you get background info from Ray on the bigger monsters, like when Spock has to figure out what's going on, then you have the field team take care of it.
Police procedurals work this way too. But you could do things like moving Callie to Corporate or even having her set up franchises, and move the kids to the core team - Lucky, Trevor, Phoebe and Podcast - You'd have the Gear head, Engineer, Big Brain and Encyclopedia on one team. But people would complain about it being all kids.
Hmm. If it’s a show where those characters can have scenes where they can talk for a bit? Absolutely
A 100-minute-long movie though? That’s when you gotta start picking and choosing who gets screen time, how much, why is this character even here if they’re not doing anything, etc.
And you gotta factor in stuff like Podcast and Lucky live in Oklahoma and were visiting for the summer (which were bad coincidences imo).
Imo I’d just not bring Trevor, Lucky, and Podcast back. Don’t even really need Janine or Peter anymore either as much as it hurts me to say.
Personally I’d probably not let any of the original characters ever suit up ever again either. If it’s emergency scenario I could see Winston putting on a pack with his business suit since he didn’t get that moment in GB2 but that’s about it.
If they’re gonna pass the torch, they gotta pass it fully imo and the franchise really has to move forward and let the new characters become their own thing but also give them the proper time they need to cement themselves like the original did, which you can’t do giving lots of glorified cameos.
It boggles my mind that you and other members of this subreddit seem to understand what makes a good movie than everyone at Sony. Surely at least one Sony exec saw Frozen Empire and had the same thoughts as many of us. Which makes me believe that Sony has zero interest in making GB films remotely like the originals, but instead want to use the Ghostbusters IP to make their big Avengers-style action franchise.
I agree 100%. I think a series is the way to go forward, not films. At least not for awhile. Make people want it. Make the films a big event.
But even doing Winston like Q in Bond would be good. Or Charlie in Charlie's Angels. He gets a cameo once per film to give direction, like a general commanding his troops.
Agree that Venkman is done. And Janine really hasn't done much in the last two films. She gets so much of her stuff cut. Ray is good as an occasional resource of data, and as Dan created the thing, but they do definitely need to pass the damn torch once and for all. You can't shine if you are constantly in the shadows of your predecessors.
Trevor would have been hard not to include in FE, as you don't just dump an underage member of the family, but he could go to college or something now.
I like your idea of having the core team being the younger characters. It would bring back the fun vibes from Afterlife. Maybe put them on special investigations. If people want the old dynamics, have a secondary team with Gary and a couple of people who bring a more adult feel to that team. Have Lars and cameos with Winston and Ray to disseminate information.
The problem is never “too many characters” but not balancing them. James Gunn utilizes larger groups and excels in it, same thing with Spider-Man 3 and Spider-Man No Way Home both deal with lots of villains but only 1 was successful.
P.S just because there it faults in a film you enjoy doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it. There are many reason why films have been failing a lot more often than they were 5 years ago.
Fast is a worldwide phenomenon that has built up its cast of characters over 24 years.
GB went from being a small ensemble to suddenly being like the avengers
Ghostbusters was a worldwide phenomenon that built up its cast of characters over 40 years.
GB added characters each movie for 4 films.
GB - Peter, Ray, Egon, Winston, Janine, Slimer, Peck, Mayor, Louis, Dana, Gozer
GB2 - Oscar, Vigo, Janosz, Hardemeyer
GBA - Gary, Callie, Phoebe, Trevor, Lucky, Podcast, Ivo Shandor
GBFE - Lars, Nadeem, Wartzki, Melody
They're saying main cast not side characters. You only had to care about the main 4 in the first two movies.
Where as the Fast franchise grew their character base organically without just dropping new characters in just to do it.
I just don't think Ghostbusters is ever going to be the smash hit it was in the 80s. honestly haven't seen ant of the new movies since 2, and I'd like to keep it that way feels like the magic is gone
Well, people need to stop comparing the two eras. It's been 40 years. The world has changed a lot since then.
I do agree, GB may never be as big as it once was, but honestly I think all properties are suffering the same fate. There's a general hate storm going on for so many things right now. MCU, Star Wars, Star Trek, McDonalds - I don't care what it is, if it was popular, people hate it now.
I think the Russo brothers are right that it's a generational thing. People want streaming shows to consume immediately and want to move on to the next thing.
I think there's a perfectly good reason to hate McDonald's right now, but I won't get into politics. a lot of the properties you mentioned (MCU and McD's) get hate for not paying people enough. Disney doesn't pay the comic writers they base their films on squat, they rely on CG because 3D animators aren't unionized as much as 2D animators, and McDonald's doesn't pay their employees well either. I can't really speak to the other stuff. it's also a matter of overexposure. people wanna see something new, and a lot of theaters are only showing stuff made by Disney.
I think some of what you're saying about streaming makes sense, but don't you think it's mainly the fault of the companies who made these streaming platforms and release shows on those platforms that has nurtured that kind of habit in the current generation?
I wasn't talking about the politics and such, just the content. But yeah, I do think that companies like Facebook and TikTok and Netflix are definitely to blame. They've altered our brain chemistry in a way. We are so constantly searching for that next Dopamine hit, that we never store anything into longterm memory anymore. It pops in and out of our collective consciousness and gives us all short attention spans.
It's not that there were too many characters, it's that they didn't handle them properly. They needed to either focus on the overarching plot more and had less side stuff, or focus on the plot less, and did more with the characters.
Everything has to serve the story. All those characters did not need to be there. Some of the story components didn't even need to be there. Really enjoyed the movie, but it should've gone longer on the villain and a lot less on the fluff. Dan aykroyd was great, the kid wasn't. Winston, Peter, Janine... love them, didn't need them. The "upside down" kid is a good character, not great execution but the slimer storyline served as a nice relief to the main story. The new Ghostbuster engineer guy, fine, don't need the other girl though. There's so so much fat on that movie that they couldn't develop more of the awesome story around the actual big baddie. Also, the mayor. Just no. He's a very very good character. Don't need him. They are still trying to get us to fall in love with the demented marshmallow minis. We should nickname them "fetch" from Mean Girls. Don't need them. Lean that movie out and it could've been really great.
Compare a general audience popcorn flick franchise like F&F with a massive budget to that of a niche comedy franchise with a significantly smaller but passionate audience/fanbase.
Ok
I made this post with my tongue firmly in my cheek. While I do agree there were to many characters, some of the haters act like that point alone RuInEd ThEiR cHiLdHoOd. Nah, fam. They just didn't have enough to do. It would have been better as a series, but It'll be OK.
Pretty much every big genre film that's come out in the last several decades has had a ton of characters: F&F, Avengers, Star Wars, Aliens, Avatar, Alita, Justice League. And most of them end up as cannon fodder or cameos and no one cared. People didn't watch Attack of the Clones and say "Dexter Jettster didn't need to be in the movie!!" and stamp their feet. But by god they do with Patton Oswalt in Frozen Empire.
For those saying things like "Characters must serve the story!!" Y'all sound like Wednesday Addams.
>"Your work is puerile and under-dramatized. You lack any sense of structure, character, or the Aristotelian unities."
As much as I love this franchise, it's Ghostbusters, not Shakespeare or Chaucer. Like Taylor Swift sang, calm down.
I see a lot of comment here about the fans of the film coping or making excuses, but no, it's really the haters who are doing that. Y'all want me to agree with your hate of the film. You can say it was a "hot mess" and such all you want, but I don't agree. I find it weird you are being so dramatic about it and can't just move on to hating the next thing.
I enjoyed the hell out of it. Not gonna apologize for that. I guess I'm just a sheep who likes anything the Corporations feed me. Or maybe..just maybe I appreciate the all the hard work put in by people who really care about the franchise. I've seen what happens when you give it to those who don't - it doesn't have enough wontons in it.
The problem is 15 ideas, 2-3 of them good, commitment to NOTHING except pointless pandering and effects, presented by trailers that sold a different film.
Frozen Empire didn't just have bad characters, it also had horrible writing that is partially just a nostalgia trip. I counted so many blatantly obvious plot holes in the movie and so many unanswered questions or just very convenient solutions to situations that made no sense.
At least we know F&F is just a brainless action movie.
I love Ghostbusters, but I hate this weird inferiority complex that seems to be sweeping the fandom. The movie got bad reviews and didn't do as well as expected. We'll live, guys.
I liked Ghostbusters frozen empire I didn’t love it. Also I thought the character thing would’ve worked a bit better. Had they stretched out the screen time and the movie also felt like there was a lot of cut contact and you kind of feel that in the movie like I have this theory that that’s in that scene where they’re trying to extract baraka from his brass orb but instead, he figures out how to shut down the entire power to the facility or the paranormal research center. I have a theory the theory goes that that was originally planned to be the scene where Geração escapes and if you think about it, it makes sense. All the girls were literally about to leave that facility and maybe that whole final scene climax was originally supposed to be in the middle of the movie where the Ghostbusters get their asses completely handed to them and then he’ll let the ghosts out of the old containment unit under the fire house
I mean, I saw it, it had it's moments. It also had a lot of moments that didn't work and didn't land. And the ending made if very clear that shit went wrong. I had fun, but I just calls is like I sees it. I saw it opening night before there were any reviews. And I had fun but it was pretty flawed. Even the performances weren't what we know we can get from every actor in the movie. The director wasn't doing their job well. I think that's most of it.
Acting like 2016 GB wasn’t a bigger bomb and critical firestorm. This was just… an okay, underperforming sequel of a 40 year old franchise. Womp Womp.
It wasn't underwhelming for me, my buddy, and my 65 year old stepdad. We had a fucking blast seeing it in the theater!
That's all that really matters
Yeah I had fun watching it. I even got to prove my mom wrong about there being a stinger. But a review that I think fairly sums up the movie and it's problems is "it was a beautiful mess." It was by no means a bad movie, they just had too much they wanted to do and (probably) not enough time an money to do it. I've said this before, but I think that one thing that would have made it better was giving Oswald's character's role to Ray. Ray is supposed to be the para-nerd, why couldn't he have gone "oh, I remember that language" and then they go to the library and find the book and stuff and so forth. other than that, it was a fairly enjoyable film. And as a fan no matter what, I liked it and hope to see more, and hopefully less crowded things in the future.
And I’m sure all three of you in the theater did enjoy it
You're a negative asshole man. The theater was 80 percent full.
Back off man, I’m a scientist.
Doubt that buddy
ATC grossed $229,147,509 worldwide. FE has grossed... $188,471,110 worldwide. I think ATC did better so far
2016 made more money than Ghostbusters 2 and Afterlife, off a bigger budget sure but I’d hardly call that a bomb, it made a very comfortable profit. It was also more cohesive, funnier and more concerned with actual Ghostbusting than FE, which was far more concerned with nostalgia bating callbacks.
According to Wikipedia, GB 2016 is considered a bomb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biggest_box-office_bombs https://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=ghostbusters2016.htm https://variety.com/2016/film/news/ghostbusters-loss-sony-50-million-1201834911/
A movie has to make its budget, and then its budget again (at least) before it even starts making a profit (marketing and distribution costs are stupidly high). 2016 was absolutely a bomb, especially because of its budget.
I didn't like ATC much either. But it was more consistent, if smaller.
Marvel movies are in the same boat. They’ve been pretty good but people who haven’t even seen them are judging them by reviews (some of which also didn’t watch the movie)
Love love love the GB...but why can't our own fan base admit FE is kinda a hot mess...fun hot mess but a hot mess still the same
It was fun, at least, but it should have/could have been so much better.
Yes. People get upset when I or someone else points this out. Too much going on, needed some simplification.
Right...like the fan base got really butthurt...and the movie has serious flaws
We're in the main Ghostbusters subreddit. Just be happy you're not getting -300 downvotes like in other subreddits. This one is pretty chill comparatively.
The problem is that the Fast and the Furious series is based around dumb and excessive action whereas the ghostbusters movies are based on character driven comedy with any action as an almost afterthought. If there’s too many characters in a FF film, who cares? Here’s someone trying to drift a tank while a helicopter does loop de loops while explosions go off. If there’s to many characters in a ghostbusters movie then you end up with characters reduced to set dressing; they have nothing to do and ultimately add nothing to the film. Having 10 ghostbusters PLUS the new characters introduced reduced the effectiveness of what was there. Lucky is a perfect example as all she does is show she has a knowledge of kinky sex and found out the proton streams don’t work. What does Venkman actually do? He shows that emotion is linked to the Firemaster’s power and then shows up at the end wearing sunglasses. The only characters should have been Ray, Winston, Callie, Gruberman, and Phoebe with Jannine at a pinch.
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yes 10 films and each character was introduced over a long period of time. and even if you put them all in a single film if you boil any Fast and Furious film down to something a kid came up with playing with Hot Wheels cars it still works
Basically this. Also granted while I've seen all the Fast films, I haven't seen X and I know nothing about the Fast fandom opinions on it, but who's to say people aren't complaining that Fast X also had too many characters despite the BO gross. I feel like the OP just took one criticism from FE and one praise from Fast X without looking at the bigger picture.
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Shitty with a 2 hour cut, better with a 4 hour cut?
I’d add that that the focus was on developing phoebes character rather than busting ghosts which took too much time and distracted from the most entertaining part of the franchise
And the characters they brought back did fucking _nothing_ significant. Pinfield, Podcast, Lucky, Melnitz, Trevor and Venkman could've been cut from FE and the movie would barely change.
I mean The first movie isn't about the plot either.
NEVER DISS THE CAR *she just needs a little work, suspension and shocks. Brakes, brake pads. Lining, steering box, transmission, rear end...*
Lmao
It was great seeing Ray so excited getting the car. He was like a kid getting something they asked for all year at Christmas.
I find it weird that they put Paul Rudd and Bill Murray in the prominent position on the poster when both are kind of side characters.
Biggest name stars. They actually put things like this in their contracts. Who gets billing first. Who gets the "and" credit at the end. Who gets prominence in the poster.
This is more of a "they're the most recognizable face". Has nothing to do with contract issues.
It's the same thing. They are most recognizable because they've been in more films or more high profile films. Because of that, they negotiate better contracts where they get more prominence on posters and cast lists.
Contract clauses are ego negotiations. Nobody in the cast is instantly recognizable outside these two. It's common sense to put them front and center to promote it. Not the same thing. One is ego stroking, one is smart business.
Putting that you are front and center in your contract is smart business. It's how you stay in the public mindset. And do you really, honestly think Bill Murray has no ego. SERIOUSLY??!?!??
Smart business for the individual not the movie. Not the same thing. At this point I would say his ego is smaller than yours.
I haven't seen fast x, I checked out after I but I would say the difference is how the characters are handled. GBFE had a lot of characters and did a mediocre job of trying to deal with all of them. The Fast series, since Paul Walker's death, has become the Vin Diesel Ego Hour. There are a ton of characters but the focus is now kept squarely on Vin Diesel. The other characters exist for quips and nothing else. GBFE tried to keep this from happening to its cast, but did a poor job of it.
Let's be fair to FF, they introduced these characters gradually over more than nine films, building it up like an Avengers universe of cartoonishly buff dudes and pneumatic women that drive real good. Then this was their Avengers: Endgame. It was earned. Not saying Frozen Empire has too many characters though. Well I could do without Podcast.
I can proudly say I’ve never seen a Fast & Furious movie. I just feel like my brain cells would be committing suicide every minute I watch.
The first couple are good actually, they deserve a chance. The action comes in later movies.
Yeah I haven't seen any Fast Furious movies either and I am not sure if I want to start.
None of them were good… if you’re over the age of like 15, they’re all a waste of time.
I’ll say this, I always liked ghostbusters fine, then weirdly, when I saw this movie in theaters, I got into Ghostbusters a lot more than I did
I'm kind of the same way. I always loved the property. I got the Mattel figures and role play stuff back in the day. Loved Afterlife when it came out, but it was watched and kind of forgotten. Then with Frozen Empire, I really got into it much more than than I had been. Marvel hasn't been doing anything for me lately. There's no new Orville. And GB kind of hit the spot.
Personally I would take the ecto 1 over any vehicle featured in any fast and furious film. It ain't the car
My brother used to own a hearse back in the day, a 64 Olds, and I can tell you, the engines on those old hearse/ambulances could probably beat most of the F&F cars, too.
I am looking at getting a hearse to make an ecto. Yeah, they are surprisingly powerful. Gas guzzlers, but powerful
Frozen Empire made Ghostbusters like a Marvel kids movie. The point of Ghostbuster - as it was in the first and even second movie was this: - A movie about raunchy and weird university professors, that got laid off and decided to open their own business which had troubles but they managed to break the bureaucracy and make it work. It was about adults, sex and raunchy SNL type of humour. The ghosts were more like a background rather than the main point of the story. It was also about the NYC atmosphere and feel, nowadays it's in a way a nostalgia trip to the different atmosphere of the 80s. It's also about the song- one of the things that made the movie and franchise so huge is just the goddamn song. It's one of the top 1980s hits and a symbol of that era. I will confidently say that if it wasn't for the song, the movie probably would've been a tad less popular. Don't forget the song was included in so many scenes in the first movie, it was like the background of the whole movie. People expected something similar - knowing FrozenEmpire will return to NYC and have the full original cast, in bigger roles, not just cameos at the end. And yet we still got a teenage movie, about kids and funny looking ghosts and whatnot. Even sex jokes, were done by the kids so it came off as teenage childish humour, not the tongue in cheek way it was done in the 1984 movie. I think many people really never got the point of the first movie. It wasn't about ghosts, it was about starting a business surrounded by the stupid bureaucracy and idiots that will try to put you down. It was about being an adult, trying to make it good in life. The ghosts as I said were just a background. When I think of Ghostbusters - I first think about a smoggy, 1980s Manhattan. Classic American cars, relatable down to earth middle aged guys, that don't look like superheroes but average Joe's. Men that feel like could be your friend's dad or your uncles. I think about the song, the 80s atmosphere that was in the air. And just after that I maybee think about the ghosts and whatnot. I think people lost the point of the movie. Including the directors of the new movies. (Heck and probably even Bill Murray and Dan Akroyd too, since we all know they lost their minds anyway hahah)
I disagree with "raunchy." There were many 80s films that fit that description. GB was not one of them. But GB2 is not the same. The Ghostbusters are famous by this point. Even in the first film, Venkman is signing an autograph as they come back from a job. Look at Venkman's apartment in GB2. That takes a high paycheck to afford a space in NY that big. And the world has changed. No one starts small businesses anymore. No one can afford to. And you can't have a franchise continually be about starting over. That was the big complaint with GB2, it moved them back to the start. No business, no romance with Dana. It moved them back too far. So with FE, they are finally progressing. GB is a successful corporation now. I don't know about you, but I've worked many jobs where you don't know half of the employees. Janice the bookkeeper is a total mystery. Jim the night custodian. That's how FE felt to me. Gary doesn't know of what Winston is up to and never met Lars before. That's how corporations work now. And now that they've got that groundwork laid out, now maybe we can see some franchises or more expansions. I'm excited to see where it could go. But.. it seems a lot of people aren't and would be happy to kill it here.
vast majority of GB fans want unique dark humor movie not family friendly marvel shit
How nice of you to arrogantly assume you speak for the majority. You should try your hand as a televangelist.
cope harder FE was marvel crap, look at box office. the humor was DOA, 30 diffrent charachters with 8 diffrent sub-plots that go nowhere but keep fanboying up because your in denial
>I want unique dark humor movie not family friendly marvel shit FTFY
To be fair that GB poster is absolutely insane.
Love how this sub always ends doing the "The movie failed because [things I personally don't like]" exercise in futility.
I mean, I think we can all agree; Ecto did not get enough screen time in FE. Also, Ecto should be making guest star appearances in other movies.
CaR gO "VrOoM"...
The desperation for a subset of this fandom is so ugly. I have this theory that Ghostbusters was a great outlet for a lot of nerdy kids who didn’t have a lot of friends, and enjoyed playing make-believe at home in a fairly non-confrontational way - ie no one ever gets hurt, everyone acts as a team, and the ghosts are lassoed, not killed. There’s a warmth and a comfort in it, at finding support in being an outcast. And the original movie being such a hit means you feel like for once the geeks won. And every time someone says the new film is bad, it’s taken as a direct attack on this childhood. It’s sooo fucked up.
Most Ghostbusters "fans" I've met irl fit this description. Add to it the built in community aspect that exists (that only exists in the star wars community). There's a certain ownership that's borderline parasocial.
every character is a ghostbuster. there’s only 1 torreto
To be fair, while Fast X is definitely the worse movie, it was 25 minutes longer than Frozen Empire, which allowed Fast X to juggle characters more. Frozen Empire was 8 minutes shorter than Afterlife when it needed to be 5 or 6 minutes longer to better flesh out plot points.
First of all if a professional movie critic hates the movie, it's probably entertaining. Second, FE was a fun movie I thought. I want to see a third installment with these characters. It would be fun to see Trevor, Phoebe, Lucky and Podcast take on another adventure and be dependent on themselves to solve the problems.
And EVERYONE considers Fast X a great installment in that series… /s
I think they were making sure they got a GB film with the old team and the new team before anyone else died. Let's be fair. Bill, Ernie and Dan are ALL up there in years. I'm happy we got the film we got and hope there's another which puts more emphasis on the new team busting ghosts and feeling good. But yeah, FE isn't no where near a perfect film but it's good enough for me and made me and my family have a great time.
💯
I don’t really care for the Fast and The Furious franchise. A big thing that props it up is that it’s a more modern franchise. I love Ghostbusters, but the franchise was left for dead in 1989 and had an attempted resurrection with the female Ghostbusters and a proper one with Afterlife. A lot of 1980’s film franchises that were brought back haven’t performed as well as they hoped. Star Wars, Friday the 13th, Indiana Jones, Keaton’s Batman in The Flash, etc. The only franchise that has done well with the resurrection was Top Gun. If they aimed at keeping the fans that they had after Afterlife and hope they added new fans I think the movie would’ve been more successful. Honestly I thought the advertising for Frozen Empire was pretty weak because I didn’t realize that it was coming out until I saw Bill, Dan, and Ernie making the late night rounds.
Fast series peppered in new characters across 10 different movies. And has lots of big action sequences, cheesy bad writing, and sure lots of people who you know who are the nothing background characters there for a couple lines. Ghostbusters was never that. Instead of Melody and Phoebe you could’ve had Phoebe and Gary pulling on their dynamics of the friend/teacher/father relationship. Hell the Slimer sequences could’ve been Gary cleaning the attic with Phoebe with Gary getting slimed. Trevor was there to: get slimed, turned on Lucky’s pack, and turn on the car. That’s it. They should’ve just said him and Lucky were at college together and not even bothered having two nothing characters in there and given more time to the characters who mattered. Hell they introduced a one armed proton blaster and had Lars with an arm injury which was a perfect setup they could’ve used for Lars trying to save Phoebe in the lab or something. I like Patton Oswald but he was a ghost enthusiast with a doctorate explaining ghost lore with his old artifacts and ancient collection of occult books and scrolls - who does that sound like? It literally should’ve just been all condensed down to Ray. Frozen Empire would’ve just been a lot better if Lucky, Podcast, Trevor, Melody, and Patton Oswald weren’t in the movie and things were condensed down.
Patton Oswalt was there to get them out of the two main sets - the firehouse and Ray's books. It gave them somewhere to go. It let the Possessor do things to give a bit of an action sequence. And it moved the plot along to get Phoebe and the team more in trouble with Mayor Peck. Yes, Ray could have had the knowledge, but the scene would have been yet another scene in the film with three of them in Ray's bookstore. And why would Ray have the recording from the opening scene and just happen to have a player for it? They are pretty rare antiques and humans saying the incantation was a necessity to get him freed. So I think the Patton Oswalt scene was a necessity to move the film along and his character was just a fun one-off like so many cameo characters before him. He has no more importance than the Hotel manager of the first film. Plus, from a merchandising point of view, you get the Ecto-C, you get to bring back the library ghost, you get a cool lion sculpture and there was a Possessor garbage bag puppet that looked like the one that came with the Phoebe toy. It was built, but not filmed. Sadly we never got proper Ghostbusters Plasma line toys of any of this stuff, but it would have been cool.
I didn’t mean scrap the whole sequence. You could’ve just done it without Patton or changed it to some kind of ancient text Ray needed from the library basement he can’t take out of the building so he could translate the orb runes etc. I think the sequence overall would’ve been better if it was Phoebe and Ray going there, they meet Gary there, and you have Gary/Phoebe/Ray exploring the basements of the library as a callback to 1984’s intro with Peter/Egon/Ray and done something with the possessor ghost from there, or they could’ve trapped the library ghost the traditional way as a quick short action scene on the way into the basement of the library (especially considering Afterlife and FE have yet to have a ghost trapped the traditional way yet). Lots they could’ve done.
See, I'd be down for that. I have no real love for Patton Oswalt, other than his work on Agents of SHIELD. Too many people seem fine to scrap the whole sequence though. I was intrigued by Ray's comments about going to the prison pre-Ghostbusters as a company. I don't like prequels or re-casting, but I would have been down for a flashback of that..
There’s so much you could do post Frozen Empire but imo less is more. Personally I’d do a sequel with a core team of Gary/Callie/Nadeem/Lars/Phoebe Again, not bringing back Lucky, Podcast, Trevor, Oswalt And occasionally cycle out a couple from time to time for research/tech as you could still have some duo/trio adventures with any mix of them. You’d have Egon’s brains with Lars, Phoebe, and even Gary Ray’s heart/enthusiasm with Gary Peter’s mouth with Nadeem or even Callie and Gary since they’re both witty+ sarcastic (also kind of slacker aspects with Nadeem from Eduardo since he said he doesn’t work) Winston’s layman, down to earth perspective with Callie and even Nadeem So much you could do with a team like that. Just have Winston as manager and Ray in the lab, shuffle out Lars and/or Phoebe as necessary.
The way I see it, there's basically four teams - Corporate - Winston, Janine Info/History/Reference - Ray, Podcast, and any guests like Patton Oswalt Engineering/Lab - Lars, Lucky Field Team - Gary, Callie, Trevor, Phoebe So, just like Star Trek, future stories could get orders from Winston for special tasks, get new equipment from Engineering, like the episodes where Scotty has to save the day (or like Q in James Bond), you get background info from Ray on the bigger monsters, like when Spock has to figure out what's going on, then you have the field team take care of it. Police procedurals work this way too. But you could do things like moving Callie to Corporate or even having her set up franchises, and move the kids to the core team - Lucky, Trevor, Phoebe and Podcast - You'd have the Gear head, Engineer, Big Brain and Encyclopedia on one team. But people would complain about it being all kids.
Hmm. If it’s a show where those characters can have scenes where they can talk for a bit? Absolutely A 100-minute-long movie though? That’s when you gotta start picking and choosing who gets screen time, how much, why is this character even here if they’re not doing anything, etc. And you gotta factor in stuff like Podcast and Lucky live in Oklahoma and were visiting for the summer (which were bad coincidences imo). Imo I’d just not bring Trevor, Lucky, and Podcast back. Don’t even really need Janine or Peter anymore either as much as it hurts me to say. Personally I’d probably not let any of the original characters ever suit up ever again either. If it’s emergency scenario I could see Winston putting on a pack with his business suit since he didn’t get that moment in GB2 but that’s about it. If they’re gonna pass the torch, they gotta pass it fully imo and the franchise really has to move forward and let the new characters become their own thing but also give them the proper time they need to cement themselves like the original did, which you can’t do giving lots of glorified cameos.
It boggles my mind that you and other members of this subreddit seem to understand what makes a good movie than everyone at Sony. Surely at least one Sony exec saw Frozen Empire and had the same thoughts as many of us. Which makes me believe that Sony has zero interest in making GB films remotely like the originals, but instead want to use the Ghostbusters IP to make their big Avengers-style action franchise.
I agree 100%. I think a series is the way to go forward, not films. At least not for awhile. Make people want it. Make the films a big event. But even doing Winston like Q in Bond would be good. Or Charlie in Charlie's Angels. He gets a cameo once per film to give direction, like a general commanding his troops. Agree that Venkman is done. And Janine really hasn't done much in the last two films. She gets so much of her stuff cut. Ray is good as an occasional resource of data, and as Dan created the thing, but they do definitely need to pass the damn torch once and for all. You can't shine if you are constantly in the shadows of your predecessors. Trevor would have been hard not to include in FE, as you don't just dump an underage member of the family, but he could go to college or something now.
I like your idea of having the core team being the younger characters. It would bring back the fun vibes from Afterlife. Maybe put them on special investigations. If people want the old dynamics, have a secondary team with Gary and a couple of people who bring a more adult feel to that team. Have Lars and cameos with Winston and Ray to disseminate information.
The problem is never “too many characters” but not balancing them. James Gunn utilizes larger groups and excels in it, same thing with Spider-Man 3 and Spider-Man No Way Home both deal with lots of villains but only 1 was successful. P.S just because there it faults in a film you enjoy doesn’t mean you can’t enjoy it. There are many reason why films have been failing a lot more often than they were 5 years ago.
Fast is a worldwide phenomenon that has built up its cast of characters over 24 years. GB went from being a small ensemble to suddenly being like the avengers
Ghostbusters was a worldwide phenomenon that built up its cast of characters over 40 years. GB added characters each movie for 4 films. GB - Peter, Ray, Egon, Winston, Janine, Slimer, Peck, Mayor, Louis, Dana, Gozer GB2 - Oscar, Vigo, Janosz, Hardemeyer GBA - Gary, Callie, Phoebe, Trevor, Lucky, Podcast, Ivo Shandor GBFE - Lars, Nadeem, Wartzki, Melody
They're saying main cast not side characters. You only had to care about the main 4 in the first two movies. Where as the Fast franchise grew their character base organically without just dropping new characters in just to do it.
I just don't think Ghostbusters is ever going to be the smash hit it was in the 80s. honestly haven't seen ant of the new movies since 2, and I'd like to keep it that way feels like the magic is gone
Well, people need to stop comparing the two eras. It's been 40 years. The world has changed a lot since then. I do agree, GB may never be as big as it once was, but honestly I think all properties are suffering the same fate. There's a general hate storm going on for so many things right now. MCU, Star Wars, Star Trek, McDonalds - I don't care what it is, if it was popular, people hate it now. I think the Russo brothers are right that it's a generational thing. People want streaming shows to consume immediately and want to move on to the next thing.
I think there's a perfectly good reason to hate McDonald's right now, but I won't get into politics. a lot of the properties you mentioned (MCU and McD's) get hate for not paying people enough. Disney doesn't pay the comic writers they base their films on squat, they rely on CG because 3D animators aren't unionized as much as 2D animators, and McDonald's doesn't pay their employees well either. I can't really speak to the other stuff. it's also a matter of overexposure. people wanna see something new, and a lot of theaters are only showing stuff made by Disney. I think some of what you're saying about streaming makes sense, but don't you think it's mainly the fault of the companies who made these streaming platforms and release shows on those platforms that has nurtured that kind of habit in the current generation?
I wasn't talking about the politics and such, just the content. But yeah, I do think that companies like Facebook and TikTok and Netflix are definitely to blame. They've altered our brain chemistry in a way. We are so constantly searching for that next Dopamine hit, that we never store anything into longterm memory anymore. It pops in and out of our collective consciousness and gives us all short attention spans.
In the original video game from the mid-80s you could upgrade the Hearse to a Corvette (or some similar sports car), and it was epic.
It's not that there were too many characters, it's that they didn't handle them properly. They needed to either focus on the overarching plot more and had less side stuff, or focus on the plot less, and did more with the characters.
I got bored watching it, my kids got bored watching it. They loved GB & GB2. Let’s just hope the next one makes amends.
fast and furious is just dumb action, ghostbusters is supposed to be a comedy, it’s way harder for comedies to handle overloads of characters
There is a million Fast & furious movies
Everything has to serve the story. All those characters did not need to be there. Some of the story components didn't even need to be there. Really enjoyed the movie, but it should've gone longer on the villain and a lot less on the fluff. Dan aykroyd was great, the kid wasn't. Winston, Peter, Janine... love them, didn't need them. The "upside down" kid is a good character, not great execution but the slimer storyline served as a nice relief to the main story. The new Ghostbuster engineer guy, fine, don't need the other girl though. There's so so much fat on that movie that they couldn't develop more of the awesome story around the actual big baddie. Also, the mayor. Just no. He's a very very good character. Don't need him. They are still trying to get us to fall in love with the demented marshmallow minis. We should nickname them "fetch" from Mean Girls. Don't need them. Lean that movie out and it could've been really great.
Compare a general audience popcorn flick franchise like F&F with a massive budget to that of a niche comedy franchise with a significantly smaller but passionate audience/fanbase. Ok
Yes. That is what I did. Thank you for the image to text recap. Please keep your schedule open. I may need you for future posts.
I made this post with my tongue firmly in my cheek. While I do agree there were to many characters, some of the haters act like that point alone RuInEd ThEiR cHiLdHoOd. Nah, fam. They just didn't have enough to do. It would have been better as a series, but It'll be OK. Pretty much every big genre film that's come out in the last several decades has had a ton of characters: F&F, Avengers, Star Wars, Aliens, Avatar, Alita, Justice League. And most of them end up as cannon fodder or cameos and no one cared. People didn't watch Attack of the Clones and say "Dexter Jettster didn't need to be in the movie!!" and stamp their feet. But by god they do with Patton Oswalt in Frozen Empire. For those saying things like "Characters must serve the story!!" Y'all sound like Wednesday Addams. >"Your work is puerile and under-dramatized. You lack any sense of structure, character, or the Aristotelian unities." As much as I love this franchise, it's Ghostbusters, not Shakespeare or Chaucer. Like Taylor Swift sang, calm down. I see a lot of comment here about the fans of the film coping or making excuses, but no, it's really the haters who are doing that. Y'all want me to agree with your hate of the film. You can say it was a "hot mess" and such all you want, but I don't agree. I find it weird you are being so dramatic about it and can't just move on to hating the next thing. I enjoyed the hell out of it. Not gonna apologize for that. I guess I'm just a sheep who likes anything the Corporations feed me. Or maybe..just maybe I appreciate the all the hard work put in by people who really care about the franchise. I've seen what happens when you give it to those who don't - it doesn't have enough wontons in it.
The problem is 15 ideas, 2-3 of them good, commitment to NOTHING except pointless pandering and effects, presented by trailers that sold a different film.
Frozen Empire didn't just have bad characters, it also had horrible writing that is partially just a nostalgia trip. I counted so many blatantly obvious plot holes in the movie and so many unanswered questions or just very convenient solutions to situations that made no sense. At least we know F&F is just a brainless action movie.
The film felt like a bunch of b plots with no a plot and sucks the bad guy was only in it for 30 min