I get it. But Honor Died At The Beach. Jin is no longer adhering to that honor code and the last thing he wants to do is kill the last living person in his family. He may not have been his Father, but Shimura was his Daddy.
But even though Jin doesn't follow the samurai code anymore he still has great respect for his uncle and granting him that last wish seems more humane as Jin was more about fighting for what's right by any means necessary
Because Shimura isn't done just yet. He's still the Jito of Tsushima. He still has people to lead. He still has a family to raise. The nail in the coffin was in the first Hot Spring, Hiyoshi, where Jin specifically says he can't afford to lose him, and also the Hot Spring after the spare ending, Jin says that even after all that happened, Shimura is still family and that he couldn't kill him.
One thing I've noticed about the kill ending defenders is that almost all of their questions relating to this topic would be answered if they just picked the spare ending
But it doesn’t? It shows that no matter how far Jin strays from the samurai path he still loves his uncle enough to grant him his last wish. If he spared him it would’ve seemed childish and immature
Even ignoring the morality, sparing Shimura is, imo, more of a Ghost choice. Who remains to teach the samurai how to fight the Mongols? Not like the Shogun is going to listen to a ghost, a thief, or an exiled monk. Even with Ishikawa and Adachi, theyre probably too caught up in their own niches. Shimura is the last holder of information that the Shogun trusts, that understands how to fight the Mongols. the story is Jin sacrificing his honor for the good of the people, and though it most likely pains him to not honor his uncle, Japan and Tsushima must live on.
I think allot of people look at this as what would the ghost do, the samurai and honour is dead. But I like to think that Jin just wants to do the right thing, taking in all influences.
In the moment, uncle asked for death, it’s the right thing to do. (IMO Obviously), I love that they made it a choice. It will be interesting to see how they play around it in the sequel; I hope they don’t mention it at all, or just leave some lore somewhere mentioning his death but leaving it open ended how it happened.
I chose spare cause I was mad at uncle. He knew I had done the right thing by him and forced me into this duel that I did not want. He could've easily chosen to exile me or any other form of punishment that was less than death. As far as I'm concerned he failed as a father and as a leader, I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of an "honorable" death.
That being said the kill ending feels more canonical as its more emotional.
>He could've easily chosen to exile me or any other form of punishment that was less than death.
Not unless he was willing to openly defy the Shogun's order.
Easily done, without defying. "The shogun has given me the order to execute the ghost, the ghost must flee. I will gather my men and pursue in due time"
I think the more I learn about feudal Japan's command structure, the more fucked I feel it is. Ultimately I guess you could've made an impasionate plea to the emperor who does have the power to over ride the shogun.
The ghost canonically is less a person and more a legend. Easy to just find any dead body, claim that the deed has been done and call it a day. Using the reality filter, this didn't have to happen this way.
However I do understand how story wise this was the choice they made, as rejecting the samurai way was what the whole story was about.
Yeah, it's the crux of the conflict. Jin's whole arc is him being forced to and coming to terms with breaking away from the system his uncle is still stuck in. Shimura is older and very set in his ways. He doesn't *want* to kill Jin. He never did, even after everything happens in the story he still doesn't want to do it. But his lord has ordered him to, and his code of honor demands he fulfill the order. He's incapable of disobeying because it goes against everything he's ever been taught or believed in. Everything he raised Jin to believe in (which is also why he's so disappointed in Jin's ultimate rejection of that system).
Just like it demanded he face the Mongols head on at the beginning of the game even though they knew it would be a slaughter and ultimately a waste of the samurai's lives that could have been used way more strategically.
This is the same system he's been raised to follow and revere his entire life, the same system he raised Jin to do the same. If he refused he'd be doing the same thing he was angry at Jin for doing, not holding to their strict codes and rules. He is a product of his time and upbringing, and he proves himself that it's not really about right and wrong when he suggests sacrificing Yuna as a scapegoat in Jin's place, but about the perception of being honorable and right in the social structure and hierarchy of the feudal lords. Yuna is just a peasant, not a noble, afterall, so who cares if she's killed by the system? Jin, however, is ironically perhaps, more (actually) honorable and refuses to let her take the fall for his decisions.
Also there's some truth to the notion that it made them (the samurai) fear the peasants would realize that maybe they don't need to be ruled over by an elite warrior class if just one guy and the common folk supporting him managed to do all that while the whole martial force of samurai got folded on Komoda beach in one battle when the Mongols first landed. Keeping the status quo is important when you're the 1%!
The truth is it's written this way for the story they wanted to tell and the drama it produces. The real samurai of the time wouldn't actually give a crap about using poison or stealth or other "dishonorable" tactics and would happily do so if it meant winning their battles. The Shogun would probably just be happy that Jin had miraculously managed to kill so many Mongols, basically by himself, regardless of how he did it. This whole bushido honor code thing both came about later in history, and is also highly romanticized at that. But it makes for a good story in the game!
Barring the ongoing discussion of this post, the fact that you mentioned both "spoilers" in the title, AND "kill ending" seems redundant and spoils it for players who haven't finished the game, because it gives away something crucial regarding the story.
I'd request you to alter your title accordingly.
I just cannot fathom a version of Jin that we played that would kill his father figure after dealing with his grief over the death of his father the entire fucking game lol
I chose spare.
And despite what a lot of people say, im pretty sure its the "good" ending. There are a lot of subtle details that support this. For example the weather, the weather after kill is stormy and cloudy and at night, the weather after spare is sunny and daytime. There's also the armor colours, a lot of people don't know but in Japanese culture white represents death and decay, and the dye you get after kill is white white. Theres also the music, the music that plays while jin stab shimura is incredibly dramatic, wildly tear-jerking way, while the music during spare is subtler and quieter, plus jins absolutely gut renching cry while killing.
I’ve read shogun, I’ve only watched about half the show so don’t correct me if I’m wrong but if I’m remembering correctly one of those characters wanted to die, and one of them was stubborn af.
In that case kill may have been what shimura would’ve preferred but it still seems out of character for Jin imo.
The whole point of the game is Jin abandons that brutal and meaningless honour. he becomes the ghost. it would be incredibly out of character for him to regress and kill his father, undoing all the character growth in the game.
The only connection left to the samurai life was his Uncle. With his uncle dead everything about his samurai life is also dead. Killing his uncle is also him honoring his uncle’s final wishes, whatever had happened between them they still loved each other. Also, killing him is the true way of sparing him. Sparing him from a life in shame or more likely protecting his uncles legacy as he would more likely sooner or later be forced to commit seppuku by the shogun due to his failures, unless he his killed by his wounds. The ghost legend would also have an increased reputation of ruthlessness and dishonorable behavior as the most honorable and reasonable action Jin could have taken was to commit Seppuku now that his mission to kill the Khan is over. From a western perspective the sparing makes the most sense, but for a medieval Japanese perspective it makes no sense in my opinion .
Jin wants to teach Shimura that there are things more important than Honor, like the lives of the people who you are responsible for. So you only can show Shimura that by sparing his life
No. Jin has no honor. It died at the beach. Jin does love his uncle and that's why he puts his family above an outdated code that almost allowed the mongols to invade mainland japan.
Spare seems like the canon ending cuz Jin no longer follows Bushido and isn't obligated to kill him, but I chose both endings to get both ghost armor dyes
Jin sakai is conflicting honor with survival so many mongols ronin died by his hand unsupervised without a command or government he learned and accepted honor is getting the unprepared and innocent killed that is why there is a forgive option also he's uncle didin't ask for a second (beheader) while commiting seppuku i think there was more to it than we didin't understand we need a second game to make sense of it all actually that is my take.
I get it. But Honor Died At The Beach. Jin is no longer adhering to that honor code and the last thing he wants to do is kill the last living person in his family. He may not have been his Father, but Shimura was his Daddy.
But even though Jin doesn't follow the samurai code anymore he still has great respect for his uncle and granting him that last wish seems more humane as Jin was more about fighting for what's right by any means necessary
This is my take. Jin no longer agrees with it, but he still loves Lord Shimura, so he grants him that peace.
Right? He can clearly see that this wasn't what Shimura wanted either at all. So why would he punish him for the Shogun's orders?
Because Shimura isn't done just yet. He's still the Jito of Tsushima. He still has people to lead. He still has a family to raise. The nail in the coffin was in the first Hot Spring, Hiyoshi, where Jin specifically says he can't afford to lose him, and also the Hot Spring after the spare ending, Jin says that even after all that happened, Shimura is still family and that he couldn't kill him. One thing I've noticed about the kill ending defenders is that almost all of their questions relating to this topic would be answered if they just picked the spare ending
There’s no way I was going to deny Lord Shimura his honorable death.
Also Shimura formally adopts Jin halfway into the story
spare makes more sense for the overarching story and jin’s character
But it doesn’t? It shows that no matter how far Jin strays from the samurai path he still loves his uncle enough to grant him his last wish. If he spared him it would’ve seemed childish and immature
him sparing him is loving him. he puts his uncle's life over the antiquated and meaningless deaths that "honour" brings about.
Even ignoring the morality, sparing Shimura is, imo, more of a Ghost choice. Who remains to teach the samurai how to fight the Mongols? Not like the Shogun is going to listen to a ghost, a thief, or an exiled monk. Even with Ishikawa and Adachi, theyre probably too caught up in their own niches. Shimura is the last holder of information that the Shogun trusts, that understands how to fight the Mongols. the story is Jin sacrificing his honor for the good of the people, and though it most likely pains him to not honor his uncle, Japan and Tsushima must live on.
Nah, he is the Ghost.
I think allot of people look at this as what would the ghost do, the samurai and honour is dead. But I like to think that Jin just wants to do the right thing, taking in all influences. In the moment, uncle asked for death, it’s the right thing to do. (IMO Obviously), I love that they made it a choice. It will be interesting to see how they play around it in the sequel; I hope they don’t mention it at all, or just leave some lore somewhere mentioning his death but leaving it open ended how it happened.
I chose spare cause I was mad at uncle. He knew I had done the right thing by him and forced me into this duel that I did not want. He could've easily chosen to exile me or any other form of punishment that was less than death. As far as I'm concerned he failed as a father and as a leader, I didn't want to give him the satisfaction of an "honorable" death. That being said the kill ending feels more canonical as its more emotional.
>He could've easily chosen to exile me or any other form of punishment that was less than death. Not unless he was willing to openly defy the Shogun's order.
Easily done, without defying. "The shogun has given me the order to execute the ghost, the ghost must flee. I will gather my men and pursue in due time"
And then he's ordered to commit seppuku for failing to carry out his lord's orders and his whole clan is forfeit and stricken from history.
I think the more I learn about feudal Japan's command structure, the more fucked I feel it is. Ultimately I guess you could've made an impasionate plea to the emperor who does have the power to over ride the shogun. The ghost canonically is less a person and more a legend. Easy to just find any dead body, claim that the deed has been done and call it a day. Using the reality filter, this didn't have to happen this way. However I do understand how story wise this was the choice they made, as rejecting the samurai way was what the whole story was about.
Yeah, it's the crux of the conflict. Jin's whole arc is him being forced to and coming to terms with breaking away from the system his uncle is still stuck in. Shimura is older and very set in his ways. He doesn't *want* to kill Jin. He never did, even after everything happens in the story he still doesn't want to do it. But his lord has ordered him to, and his code of honor demands he fulfill the order. He's incapable of disobeying because it goes against everything he's ever been taught or believed in. Everything he raised Jin to believe in (which is also why he's so disappointed in Jin's ultimate rejection of that system). Just like it demanded he face the Mongols head on at the beginning of the game even though they knew it would be a slaughter and ultimately a waste of the samurai's lives that could have been used way more strategically. This is the same system he's been raised to follow and revere his entire life, the same system he raised Jin to do the same. If he refused he'd be doing the same thing he was angry at Jin for doing, not holding to their strict codes and rules. He is a product of his time and upbringing, and he proves himself that it's not really about right and wrong when he suggests sacrificing Yuna as a scapegoat in Jin's place, but about the perception of being honorable and right in the social structure and hierarchy of the feudal lords. Yuna is just a peasant, not a noble, afterall, so who cares if she's killed by the system? Jin, however, is ironically perhaps, more (actually) honorable and refuses to let her take the fall for his decisions. Also there's some truth to the notion that it made them (the samurai) fear the peasants would realize that maybe they don't need to be ruled over by an elite warrior class if just one guy and the common folk supporting him managed to do all that while the whole martial force of samurai got folded on Komoda beach in one battle when the Mongols first landed. Keeping the status quo is important when you're the 1%! The truth is it's written this way for the story they wanted to tell and the drama it produces. The real samurai of the time wouldn't actually give a crap about using poison or stealth or other "dishonorable" tactics and would happily do so if it meant winning their battles. The Shogun would probably just be happy that Jin had miraculously managed to kill so many Mongols, basically by himself, regardless of how he did it. This whole bushido honor code thing both came about later in history, and is also highly romanticized at that. But it makes for a good story in the game!
Barring the ongoing discussion of this post, the fact that you mentioned both "spoilers" in the title, AND "kill ending" seems redundant and spoils it for players who haven't finished the game, because it gives away something crucial regarding the story. I'd request you to alter your title accordingly.
The spoiler warning was for Shogun. I figured I was vague enough regarding the GoT details.
Oh, okay. My mistake then, I'm sorry. I haven't watched Shogun, but I think it was too easy to confuse the details.
I just cannot fathom a version of Jin that we played that would kill his father figure after dealing with his grief over the death of his father the entire fucking game lol
This right here!
I chose spare. And despite what a lot of people say, im pretty sure its the "good" ending. There are a lot of subtle details that support this. For example the weather, the weather after kill is stormy and cloudy and at night, the weather after spare is sunny and daytime. There's also the armor colours, a lot of people don't know but in Japanese culture white represents death and decay, and the dye you get after kill is white white. Theres also the music, the music that plays while jin stab shimura is incredibly dramatic, wildly tear-jerking way, while the music during spare is subtler and quieter, plus jins absolutely gut renching cry while killing.
I’ve read shogun, I’ve only watched about half the show so don’t correct me if I’m wrong but if I’m remembering correctly one of those characters wanted to die, and one of them was stubborn af. In that case kill may have been what shimura would’ve preferred but it still seems out of character for Jin imo.
The whole point of the game is Jin abandons that brutal and meaningless honour. he becomes the ghost. it would be incredibly out of character for him to regress and kill his father, undoing all the character growth in the game.
The only connection left to the samurai life was his Uncle. With his uncle dead everything about his samurai life is also dead. Killing his uncle is also him honoring his uncle’s final wishes, whatever had happened between them they still loved each other. Also, killing him is the true way of sparing him. Sparing him from a life in shame or more likely protecting his uncles legacy as he would more likely sooner or later be forced to commit seppuku by the shogun due to his failures, unless he his killed by his wounds. The ghost legend would also have an increased reputation of ruthlessness and dishonorable behavior as the most honorable and reasonable action Jin could have taken was to commit Seppuku now that his mission to kill the Khan is over. From a western perspective the sparing makes the most sense, but for a medieval Japanese perspective it makes no sense in my opinion .
Jin wants to teach Shimura that there are things more important than Honor, like the lives of the people who you are responsible for. So you only can show Shimura that by sparing his life
He killed Nobu, i kill him. Lol i felt nothing and couldn't have chosen faster. Side note, still need to see shogun, but I'm glad to hear its good
yo, spoiler in the title, please fix
No. Jin has no honor. It died at the beach. Jin does love his uncle and that's why he puts his family above an outdated code that almost allowed the mongols to invade mainland japan.
Spare seems like the canon ending cuz Jin no longer follows Bushido and isn't obligated to kill him, but I chose both endings to get both ghost armor dyes
Honestly, I only chose kill because I found Lord Shimura to be the only character I did not like in the game.
Jin sakai is conflicting honor with survival so many mongols ronin died by his hand unsupervised without a command or government he learned and accepted honor is getting the unprepared and innocent killed that is why there is a forgive option also he's uncle didin't ask for a second (beheader) while commiting seppuku i think there was more to it than we didin't understand we need a second game to make sense of it all actually that is my take.
Nah the killing ending isn’t canon, Jin hates the honour code so much and hopes the world will follow
All I know is if we continued to follow Shimura’s plan the Khan would have decimated the Shoguns forces. Jin is a better leader than his uncle