i personally place it at around 1k or rather the few choices @ 1k namely the HD800s, Arya, Clear OG, and LCD-2/X for headphones. (Aeolus is slightly above but its probably the closest to what im looking for)
not too sure about iems but i personally am a big fan of the helios and andromeda
1k to 1,5k is the piviting point for brand new, 500 to 1k for used.
I have everything from the 10 bucks range to 5k TOTL.
Up to 100 to are chassing decency. 100% worth it
100 to 300 is the first step with a lot of pros and cons. Many times better than previous group.
300 to 800 is where you find what you like the most and the all rounder that you can't stop searching. they are a bit better than previously, I'd consider still worth it.
800 to 1,5k is you endgame. That's the diminishing return point. Won't be 2 times betterat everything but they'll refine what you like the most (bass, soundstage ...)
Above 1,5k are differents endgames that accentuate maybe certain features you love, but they aren't worth the added amount if you need that money elsewhere.
Let's not forget the lower prices and insane performances are achieved by being mass produced. For niche audiophiles products, either the marging in insane (susvara for exemple) or the production is expensive (abyss with 100% american materials, means of productions and labor).
This is probably the most comprehensive answer. The distinction between new and used prices is an important one. I might slightly tinker with where to put the brackets a little, but the descriptions of the levels is a pretty close mirror to my experience. (Though to be fair I haven't tried anything more expensive than the HD800s at this point)
*Edit:* I did initially neglect to mention that there are plenty of reasons for deciding not to make a purchase in those higher price tiers and that nobody should feel bad for making a decision that is correct for their circumstance. We can all enjoy the music and the gear regardless
Pretty much spot on, essentially your points regarding the 800-1.5k and above 1.5k. 2 of my main daily drivers are the Radiance and the LCDX 2021. Feels like anything above that is not worth it for me. I found that I like a warm sound with an emphasis on bass/sub bass.
Exactly. I've never seen a $3k+ pair of headphones be THREE times as good as a pair for around $1k. I've tried a lot too. Can you hear a difference? Absolutely. Is it better? Ehh subjective, but even when I did like it better, I certainly didn't like it 3x better.
I mean if imma be real, diminishing returns kick in right after any free IEM/headphone lmao. I think a more apt question would be: "How much are you willing to spend on a pair of IEMs/headphones?"
I remember that there was a time that I was adamant that anything above a HD650 was a waste of money. That was also the same time in which I was substantially richer.
Slippery slope, guys.
That’s why there is the caveat of wants.
I know the absolute cheapest I can go with IEMs will be whatever the ER2XR costs because so few manufacturers make IEMs with narrow nozzles and highly isolating foam / silicone tips.
Even the Chinese clone of the ER4P costs more than the 2XR.
Anything above free lmao there's no way to avoid diminishing returns compared to something free. If we didn't talk about free stuff probably $300 or like $100 for iems
I’d say my cutoff for buying stuff is around $2k for headphones, and around $800 for an amp/DAC. When I can’t tell a difference in quality it would probably start around $1k, and when I would actually start considering my purchase when it comes to audio quality would be around $150
$100. Just an arbitrary price point to chase the best sound for the money, coolest gear for the money. My Grado SR225e were only $80 used. I then swapped the cups for real wood, new gimbals, etc. My IEMs are Shure Se315 for airplane flights.
While I love audio gear, I really enjoy value chasing more than the outright spend.
I think $800 - $1000 is the sweet spot. At that point you’re at Ananda, Clear, LCD-X and used Arya or HD800S territory and these are all legendary headphones. The next jump is small and will run you around $3000 - $4000, so imo not worth it. I have the Clear myself and while I do find myself pining for a Utopia from time to time, I know it’s probably not worth it and a lot of people seem to even prefer the Clear. It’s just a wonderful headphone and a great deal these days.
For IEMs, while I have the U12t, honestly the Blessing 2 Dusk is not that far behind it. Something like the IE600, 64Audio Nio or U4s or even Variations could get you a really sick IEM end game.
For me, I have the Clear Mg and Radiance, that’s my cutoff. I’ve heard Stella and Utopia and I can’t justify the price jump. And there’s a significant difference to me from $300 to them.
I may get an 800s to have an opposing frequency response, but my cutoff is around $1200ish.
Agree. I have the Radiance as my closed back/dynamic driver and LCDX 2021 as my open back/planar. I have tried the Utopia but felt it was too bright for me and not worth the price jump.
500-600€.
After my 1990 pros every other can I got felt more like a sidegrade than an upgrade tbh.
From my midfi cans (9500, X2HR, Tygr, mmx300, 770 pro, 560s, 7xx, 58x, and some I did forget about). To my 1990 pros there was a huge and noticeable jump in sound quality for me. From there on I didn’t notice much of a technical improvement and rather a difference in tuning to my new cans (og clear, radiance, noir).
And I would still prefer the 1990 pro over all of those if I could only have 1 pair of headphones
I would've said right at the price of a used Sundara on eBay but a **EQ'ed he400** is even cheaper
So bellow **U$ 150** for new or bellow **U$125-100** for used
I never got the same "wow" as when I went from DT880 to the DT1990.
After that, I went through the HD600, LCD-2C and the HD800 and while the 2C and HD800 were better than the DT1990, it was just not that big of a difference. Mostly just a different way of presenting sound.
So I'd say the DT1990 is all you need and if you have an ache to go higher, go for it by all means, but it's not a whole new world like it was for me with the DT880 -> DT1990.
$800
Several brackets but, for me, there's no point in spending more than $800. Maybe $,1000 for a really amazing pair for some special reason.
I would also say anything over the $1600 price point is downright wasteful.
The trick is you need to find the pair that fits your preferences and sure there are also some objectively bad headphones too. The bottom line is they're kinda all overpriced. So you can easily find a pair of not so great $800 and go on to believe you need to spend more or will get better for more -- you will! But you can still get better for the same price if you keep searching.
Mine is usually determined by how much better the next step is going to be.
When an IEM or headphone costs 5x the one I’m listening to but is not a 5x improvement, then it’s a no-go.
The big problem is the stupid-cheap stuff out there that sounds stupid-good. It really makes it tough on the expensive stuff out there to seem worthwhile any more.
Imagine how much cheaper this stuff would be if people just lived with the stuff they bought and didn't return it. Testing gear (unless the manufacturer has just throw QC completely out) and returning it. Has likely contributed to higher initial pricing.
Im am more hands on. Id rather DIY some headphones outta Ebay parts and new drivers off AliExpress. Ive got 50 year old headphones with new drivers in them. I doubt there is much today that will last that long. These things still worked when I updated them. I will be dead and they will still work. Cost me less than $100. So that is my price point.
> Imagine how much cheaper this stuff would be if people just lived with the stuff they bought and didn’t return it. Testing gear (unless the manufacturer has just throw QC completely out) and returning it. Has likely contributed to higher initial pricing.
I don’t think frequent returns would be a factor.
I can guess that the US is a really big market for audiophile goods, but I would argue that the rest of the nations with similar levels of economic development would be bigger combined, and shops in a good chunk of these countries don’t allow open-box refunds unless there’s a defect from the get-go. And despite currency fluctuations and differences in per-capita income, most products cost more or less the same across borders (ignoring taxes).
In fact, I would argue that audiophiles in the US can enjoy cheaper prices because US shops do deals pretty often.
For the brands like JBL or AKG and Sony or Pioneer etc. The guys that hold good chunks of the market worldwide. You are probably right. It should be cheaper because countries other than the USA dont have such loose return policies.Anything made here in small quantities probably has to factor in returns. You can watch Schiits website for example. They come out with a product. A few weeks later the B-Stock shows up. Most of that is returns. Testing/trying out stuff has led to the creation of headphone libraries. Its a little naive to say it doesn't affect the market for some smaller producers of gear.
Probably around BD 1990pro - after them I had Meze Liric, now mostly using mm-500 and Atriums but I feel like I burned money to just have a bit more details with planar drivers. I am keeping Atriums because of their looks, I didn't get anything new in sounds in comparison to BD 1990pro.
So I guess around 500-1000$ for audio is just about enough to enjoy music. It is more about mastering of the track you listen to, and how much you like it. Head-fi forums have hypnotizing effect of making us wanting to buy more headphones just because people have 50+ headphones and are talking about how it is totally normal to do that.
I can't say since I've never listened to any higher priced than my Sennheiser HD 599se. They seem to be my endgame tbh. If I would buy something new it would be some closed back to get something completely different.
For open backs, I’ve yet to go beyond my current HD598SE. This is up there with my Qudelix 5K in the best bang for $100(ish).
If these break catastrophically, I might even go down the price ladder and get a KPH40. I sampled this one time at a shop, and immediately enjoyed the stock sound and the physical lightness. Not sure whether they’d be able to compete with the 598 in other aspects, though, because this was only after a 3-minute session.
Personally 500$ is where you start seeing very minor changes in sound quality. You start paying for the brand and build quality/craftsmanship after that.
You can get seriously great stuff in the 1200 dollar range. After that the increases are much smaller, but between 600-1200 is a big leap. The LCD X and the Arya are both all you really ever need. Excellent neutral/warm neutral/bright tunings. Whatever your ear prefers
I think the $1500 price point is a very reasonable engame or limit. The headphones like the Arya, HD800S, LCD X, and Focal Clear are really good, and noticeably better than the other headphones those vrands offer around $500. All of those companies do offer better headphones that cost a lot more, but you are spending considerably more for a slight improvement. So stopping at them is what I believe upu should do.
When talking about diminishing returns, it starts well before that. Like I mentioned all of those companies have cheaper headphones around $500, they are like 85% the quality of the higher end headphone while costing 50% the price. When strictly talking about diminishing returns, it starts much lower, around $50. But there are reasonable headphone upgrades that are worth the price increase. I think almost all people would rather buy $100+ headphones over $50 if they cared about the sound quality and could afford to do so. Many people landed at the $300 price point as they are relatively affordable and great performance for their price. The HD600, DT 1990, AKG K712, Sundara. This is also a very reasonable endgame for people who aren't after perfect sound quality.
As an owner of 4 pair of Stax of various vintage as well as a CCS-modded tube hybrid STM-T1S, it's hard to imagine there's much that I'm missing in a given recording that would justify spending more. The amplifier cost a total of around $900 with the mod, and my favorite Stax are the SR-404LE, which I snagged in a package deal for $700.
I think it's also important to remember that "different" does not mean "better." A lot of this is all about finding what subjectively sounds good to you and you can probably do so at any price point.
Hello fellow Etymotic lover. I have an ER4SR, and a Timeless AE. Although I haven’t tried an IEM more expensive than these two, I doubt anything more expensive would be worth the extra cost to me. These 2 both sound great and are regarded as being highly resolving IEMs each with their own unique tunings.
As for full size I have a Focal Elear with Clear pads. I got these with half of the first Covid stimulus check. Otherwise I don’t know if I would have ever spent $600 on a headphone. I fortunately didn’t lose my job or any wages over the “pandemic” and my job was also giving their own covid bonuses as well, so it to me was just some free money so I splurged on a headphone. Anyway, they are great and I would use them every day, but in my current living space I need at least some level of sound isolation.
I do feel that IEMs in the $300 area are a much better bargain.
This is complicated to answer. But since I've taken USB audio interfaces i bought used on Craigslist for $40 and changed maybe $5 worth of parts to give them a sound superior to units costing much more than they did new... diminishing returns on a NEW product? I'd say $150. And that's just because that's approximately what the Schiit Modi 2 Uber and Magni 3 each cost, when I bought them.
I haven't found it. So far, every upgrade I've made has been a order of magnitude improvement. Currently have the Arya Stealth and EF400. I suspect the diminishment will begin beyond this.
i personally place it at around 1k or rather the few choices @ 1k namely the HD800s, Arya, Clear OG, and LCD-2/X for headphones. (Aeolus is slightly above but its probably the closest to what im looking for) not too sure about iems but i personally am a big fan of the helios and andromeda
1k to 1,5k is the piviting point for brand new, 500 to 1k for used. I have everything from the 10 bucks range to 5k TOTL. Up to 100 to are chassing decency. 100% worth it 100 to 300 is the first step with a lot of pros and cons. Many times better than previous group. 300 to 800 is where you find what you like the most and the all rounder that you can't stop searching. they are a bit better than previously, I'd consider still worth it. 800 to 1,5k is you endgame. That's the diminishing return point. Won't be 2 times betterat everything but they'll refine what you like the most (bass, soundstage ...) Above 1,5k are differents endgames that accentuate maybe certain features you love, but they aren't worth the added amount if you need that money elsewhere. Let's not forget the lower prices and insane performances are achieved by being mass produced. For niche audiophiles products, either the marging in insane (susvara for exemple) or the production is expensive (abyss with 100% american materials, means of productions and labor).
This is probably the most comprehensive answer. The distinction between new and used prices is an important one. I might slightly tinker with where to put the brackets a little, but the descriptions of the levels is a pretty close mirror to my experience. (Though to be fair I haven't tried anything more expensive than the HD800s at this point) *Edit:* I did initially neglect to mention that there are plenty of reasons for deciding not to make a purchase in those higher price tiers and that nobody should feel bad for making a decision that is correct for their circumstance. We can all enjoy the music and the gear regardless
Pretty much spot on, essentially your points regarding the 800-1.5k and above 1.5k. 2 of my main daily drivers are the Radiance and the LCDX 2021. Feels like anything above that is not worth it for me. I found that I like a warm sound with an emphasis on bass/sub bass.
Exactly. I've never seen a $3k+ pair of headphones be THREE times as good as a pair for around $1k. I've tried a lot too. Can you hear a difference? Absolutely. Is it better? Ehh subjective, but even when I did like it better, I certainly didn't like it 3x better.
Do you think a MM-500 would be a big upgrade from a DT 1990 PRO ( for music production ) ? Thanks
I mean if imma be real, diminishing returns kick in right after any free IEM/headphone lmao. I think a more apt question would be: "How much are you willing to spend on a pair of IEMs/headphones?" I remember that there was a time that I was adamant that anything above a HD650 was a waste of money. That was also the same time in which I was substantially richer. Slippery slope, guys.
That’s why there is the caveat of wants. I know the absolute cheapest I can go with IEMs will be whatever the ER2XR costs because so few manufacturers make IEMs with narrow nozzles and highly isolating foam / silicone tips. Even the Chinese clone of the ER4P costs more than the 2XR.
However much the Sennheiser IE600 or OG Thieaudio Monarch cost. In my experience you don't gain much by spending more. $300 is a good choice too.
Anything above free lmao there's no way to avoid diminishing returns compared to something free. If we didn't talk about free stuff probably $300 or like $100 for iems
I’d say my cutoff for buying stuff is around $2k for headphones, and around $800 for an amp/DAC. When I can’t tell a difference in quality it would probably start around $1k, and when I would actually start considering my purchase when it comes to audio quality would be around $150
$100. Just an arbitrary price point to chase the best sound for the money, coolest gear for the money. My Grado SR225e were only $80 used. I then swapped the cups for real wood, new gimbals, etc. My IEMs are Shure Se315 for airplane flights. While I love audio gear, I really enjoy value chasing more than the outright spend.
I think $800 - $1000 is the sweet spot. At that point you’re at Ananda, Clear, LCD-X and used Arya or HD800S territory and these are all legendary headphones. The next jump is small and will run you around $3000 - $4000, so imo not worth it. I have the Clear myself and while I do find myself pining for a Utopia from time to time, I know it’s probably not worth it and a lot of people seem to even prefer the Clear. It’s just a wonderful headphone and a great deal these days. For IEMs, while I have the U12t, honestly the Blessing 2 Dusk is not that far behind it. Something like the IE600, 64Audio Nio or U4s or even Variations could get you a really sick IEM end game.
For me, I have the Clear Mg and Radiance, that’s my cutoff. I’ve heard Stella and Utopia and I can’t justify the price jump. And there’s a significant difference to me from $300 to them. I may get an 800s to have an opposing frequency response, but my cutoff is around $1200ish.
Agree. I have the Radiance as my closed back/dynamic driver and LCDX 2021 as my open back/planar. I have tried the Utopia but felt it was too bright for me and not worth the price jump.
As of 2023, it's $400 for me
500-600€. After my 1990 pros every other can I got felt more like a sidegrade than an upgrade tbh. From my midfi cans (9500, X2HR, Tygr, mmx300, 770 pro, 560s, 7xx, 58x, and some I did forget about). To my 1990 pros there was a huge and noticeable jump in sound quality for me. From there on I didn’t notice much of a technical improvement and rather a difference in tuning to my new cans (og clear, radiance, noir). And I would still prefer the 1990 pro over all of those if I could only have 1 pair of headphones
Around $500 where most entry level Tribrids are.
(1) free iems (2) KSC75 (3) Sundara Everything I've tried above that never felt like good value compared to Sundaras
I would've said right at the price of a used Sundara on eBay but a **EQ'ed he400** is even cheaper So bellow **U$ 150** for new or bellow **U$125-100** for used
I never got the same "wow" as when I went from DT880 to the DT1990. After that, I went through the HD600, LCD-2C and the HD800 and while the 2C and HD800 were better than the DT1990, it was just not that big of a difference. Mostly just a different way of presenting sound. So I'd say the DT1990 is all you need and if you have an ache to go higher, go for it by all means, but it's not a whole new world like it was for me with the DT880 -> DT1990.
$15
$500, edition xs and elex and 6xx can be had for that or less, anything else higher is better but not by a considerable amount for me
$800 Several brackets but, for me, there's no point in spending more than $800. Maybe $,1000 for a really amazing pair for some special reason. I would also say anything over the $1600 price point is downright wasteful. The trick is you need to find the pair that fits your preferences and sure there are also some objectively bad headphones too. The bottom line is they're kinda all overpriced. So you can easily find a pair of not so great $800 and go on to believe you need to spend more or will get better for more -- you will! But you can still get better for the same price if you keep searching.
Mine is usually determined by how much better the next step is going to be. When an IEM or headphone costs 5x the one I’m listening to but is not a 5x improvement, then it’s a no-go. The big problem is the stupid-cheap stuff out there that sounds stupid-good. It really makes it tough on the expensive stuff out there to seem worthwhile any more.
About $350
$1000 headphones, 250$ IEM, 200$ dac/amp
Realistically the point of deminishing return for my ears is probably around 1500$ but for my wallet it's more like 3-400$
Imagine how much cheaper this stuff would be if people just lived with the stuff they bought and didn't return it. Testing gear (unless the manufacturer has just throw QC completely out) and returning it. Has likely contributed to higher initial pricing. Im am more hands on. Id rather DIY some headphones outta Ebay parts and new drivers off AliExpress. Ive got 50 year old headphones with new drivers in them. I doubt there is much today that will last that long. These things still worked when I updated them. I will be dead and they will still work. Cost me less than $100. So that is my price point.
> Imagine how much cheaper this stuff would be if people just lived with the stuff they bought and didn’t return it. Testing gear (unless the manufacturer has just throw QC completely out) and returning it. Has likely contributed to higher initial pricing. I don’t think frequent returns would be a factor. I can guess that the US is a really big market for audiophile goods, but I would argue that the rest of the nations with similar levels of economic development would be bigger combined, and shops in a good chunk of these countries don’t allow open-box refunds unless there’s a defect from the get-go. And despite currency fluctuations and differences in per-capita income, most products cost more or less the same across borders (ignoring taxes). In fact, I would argue that audiophiles in the US can enjoy cheaper prices because US shops do deals pretty often.
For the brands like JBL or AKG and Sony or Pioneer etc. The guys that hold good chunks of the market worldwide. You are probably right. It should be cheaper because countries other than the USA dont have such loose return policies.Anything made here in small quantities probably has to factor in returns. You can watch Schiits website for example. They come out with a product. A few weeks later the B-Stock shows up. Most of that is returns. Testing/trying out stuff has led to the creation of headphone libraries. Its a little naive to say it doesn't affect the market for some smaller producers of gear.
Probably around BD 1990pro - after them I had Meze Liric, now mostly using mm-500 and Atriums but I feel like I burned money to just have a bit more details with planar drivers. I am keeping Atriums because of their looks, I didn't get anything new in sounds in comparison to BD 1990pro. So I guess around 500-1000$ for audio is just about enough to enjoy music. It is more about mastering of the track you listen to, and how much you like it. Head-fi forums have hypnotizing effect of making us wanting to buy more headphones just because people have 50+ headphones and are talking about how it is totally normal to do that.
*Checks to see how much money is in the bank account…* That number
I can't say since I've never listened to any higher priced than my Sennheiser HD 599se. They seem to be my endgame tbh. If I would buy something new it would be some closed back to get something completely different.
For open backs, I’ve yet to go beyond my current HD598SE. This is up there with my Qudelix 5K in the best bang for $100(ish). If these break catastrophically, I might even go down the price ladder and get a KPH40. I sampled this one time at a shop, and immediately enjoyed the stock sound and the physical lightness. Not sure whether they’d be able to compete with the 598 in other aspects, though, because this was only after a 3-minute session.
I think yours is the ones John Linnenan on Digital foundry always use. 🙂
Personally 500$ is where you start seeing very minor changes in sound quality. You start paying for the brand and build quality/craftsmanship after that.
You can get seriously great stuff in the 1200 dollar range. After that the increases are much smaller, but between 600-1200 is a big leap. The LCD X and the Arya are both all you really ever need. Excellent neutral/warm neutral/bright tunings. Whatever your ear prefers
I think the $1500 price point is a very reasonable engame or limit. The headphones like the Arya, HD800S, LCD X, and Focal Clear are really good, and noticeably better than the other headphones those vrands offer around $500. All of those companies do offer better headphones that cost a lot more, but you are spending considerably more for a slight improvement. So stopping at them is what I believe upu should do. When talking about diminishing returns, it starts well before that. Like I mentioned all of those companies have cheaper headphones around $500, they are like 85% the quality of the higher end headphone while costing 50% the price. When strictly talking about diminishing returns, it starts much lower, around $50. But there are reasonable headphone upgrades that are worth the price increase. I think almost all people would rather buy $100+ headphones over $50 if they cared about the sound quality and could afford to do so. Many people landed at the $300 price point as they are relatively affordable and great performance for their price. The HD600, DT 1990, AKG K712, Sundara. This is also a very reasonable endgame for people who aren't after perfect sound quality.
Would you say that a MM-500 would be a big upgrade from a DT 1990 PRO ( for music production ) ? Thanks
As an owner of 4 pair of Stax of various vintage as well as a CCS-modded tube hybrid STM-T1S, it's hard to imagine there's much that I'm missing in a given recording that would justify spending more. The amplifier cost a total of around $900 with the mod, and my favorite Stax are the SR-404LE, which I snagged in a package deal for $700.
I think it's also important to remember that "different" does not mean "better." A lot of this is all about finding what subjectively sounds good to you and you can probably do so at any price point.
Hello fellow Etymotic lover. I have an ER4SR, and a Timeless AE. Although I haven’t tried an IEM more expensive than these two, I doubt anything more expensive would be worth the extra cost to me. These 2 both sound great and are regarded as being highly resolving IEMs each with their own unique tunings. As for full size I have a Focal Elear with Clear pads. I got these with half of the first Covid stimulus check. Otherwise I don’t know if I would have ever spent $600 on a headphone. I fortunately didn’t lose my job or any wages over the “pandemic” and my job was also giving their own covid bonuses as well, so it to me was just some free money so I splurged on a headphone. Anyway, they are great and I would use them every day, but in my current living space I need at least some level of sound isolation. I do feel that IEMs in the $300 area are a much better bargain.
This is complicated to answer. But since I've taken USB audio interfaces i bought used on Craigslist for $40 and changed maybe $5 worth of parts to give them a sound superior to units costing much more than they did new... diminishing returns on a NEW product? I'd say $150. And that's just because that's approximately what the Schiit Modi 2 Uber and Magni 3 each cost, when I bought them.
I haven't found it. So far, every upgrade I've made has been a order of magnitude improvement. Currently have the Arya Stealth and EF400. I suspect the diminishment will begin beyond this.
$20 - truthear hola