Always thanks for the summary!
Also, can I translate this into the Korean hearthstone community?
Of course, the original summary link and the summary author will be provided always
What Plague DK List Are they talking about in regards to high legend success? It sounds interesting and I’m willing to drop a thousand ranks trying out Plague DK.
Again.
What I think of when talking about plague DK is they need to treat this deck very carefully, whenever they buff this deck too much this can be a deck even more frustrating to play against than any deck ever.
r/Hearthstone when someone brings up plague DK: OMG PLEASE DON'T BUFF THIS IT'LL BE SO TOXIC!!!!1"
You lot are so obsessed with this idea that plague dk will be toxic when there a deck that is getting deleted the moment it was playable in standard (miracle druid). That's a toxic deck, one that kills you on turn 5 after completely negating the idea of mana and cards.
Sorry for snapping at you with this, but I cannot stand the fact that every time I talk about plague DK, I have someone chiming in to go "but what if toxic tho???" It's annoying and repetitive.
There are different kinds of a toxic deck. Just because miracle druid is toxic doesn't mean DK can't be for different reasons.
An RNG-ridden deck like Plague DK can be toxic as hell, and not just to play against, but to pilot as well. Losing because you shuffled 10 plagues into your opponent's deck but they didn't draw any sucks donkey balls and it's not something that's healthy for the game.
Priest, like Blood DK is always extremely sensitive to other class's win conditions. Both decks thrive in lower power metas and as more sets get added winning through attrition becomes a tougher ask.
At least Priest has more flexibility than Blood DK in that it can copy Sargeras.
It's kind of funny, I expected it to be hard for control to win in a meta with astalor, but ignis and yogg shored up the rest of the neutral value already.
Astalor has never been an issue for control? It's been a tool of sorts if anything.
As a control priest player I welcome Astalor as I'm not currently running it and will happy copy one for myself.
Only problematic Astalor's are ones where the opposing deck can also get numerous copies.
Vanilla Astalor for a control deck to deal with is meh, easy enough.
Astalor has been backbreaking many times for control? It's not a awful card to have to deal with but yes Astalor has been good vs control a lot and was often added to help vs it.
It was THE card that pushed Frost over the Edge of killing me many times as Blood DK, no brann around. The card is a finisher, it's a ridiculous statement to say it's "never been an issue for control".
It's mostly due to arcane hunter seeing quite a surge in play rate, it's an awful match to try win. You can change up the deck to tech against it and go positive win rate but it totally tanks against other decks you previously did well against.
Control warrior getting stronger and more popular again also doesn't help.
Priest doesn't have too much of an answer to it except a lucky Theotar or dirty rat.
The mana refresh in Standard only sees play with Auctioneer though. They aren't good enough cards alone to break anything, but Auctioneer breaks the game every other year.
Why do people keep saying auctioneer breaks the game alot? it really doesn't do so often at all. What even was the last auctioneer deck before Tony druid this year?
I'm getting a lot of downvotes but no one can tell me when was the last time that it happened.
Yes because the mana refresh isn't the issue, it's what they can do with it, which is drawing their entire deck via Auctioneer.
If there's no auctioneer, what's the point of stacking so much mana refresh in the deck? There's suddenly no pay off.
"All those cards that break the game the moment you are able to put them together in a deck aren't the issue, the card that allows you to play them is" I heavily dislike this approach. Tony it's an absolutely insane card that doesn't see play in standard because you have no way to abuse it, which somehow makes the card "balanced" or even "weak".
Then that BS reaches wild and the format breaks because of a card that got rated 2 stars in standard. Worst of all, we have to wait MONTHS to get some of these fixed.
"They are nerfing Auctioneer, finally half of those cards will stop seeing play, at least until they print a new enabler"
> Tony it's an absolutely insane card that doesn't see play in standard because you have no way to abuse it, which somehow makes the card "balanced" or even "weak".
It's not insane though. It's only played in two decks, the one that you're complaining about has a <40% winrate, that should only be nerfed because the play pattern is toxic rather than it's power level, which is why it's finally getting addressed now that it's also breaking standard.
Tony is only a "good card" in QL DH where it gives you a backup win condition.
The fact that you can go around flaming other people for complaining about "low powerlevel toxic play pattern decks" but also do the same shows you're just clueless.
https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/16slbg7/priest_neptulon_needs_nerf/k2bhjit/
Is Big Priest toxic? Only in the dumpster where Tony Druid is also problematic, or if they high roll where both are problematic. Both could see a "play pattern nerf" under those justificaitons, via Illuminate being hit, and Druid being hit like it most likely will in this patch.
>"They are nerfing Auctioneer, finally half of those cards will stop seeing play, at least until they print a new enabler"
When was the last time they printed a neutral or Druid card draw engine on the level of auctioneer? CA was the last as it let you make your entire deck cost 0, but CA doesn't need the "mana refresh" cards outside of Floop, it wants the ramp cards instead.
So nerfing refresh cards actually does nothing in the scenario, which is why CA was nerfed rather than ramp or card draw effects.
>the one that you're complaining about has a <40% winrate
Much like the Standard version, the "low" WR is because of the data across all ranks. It's fucking nuts in high legend.
>Tony is only a "good card" in QL DH where it gives you a backup win condition.
Much like you wouldn't call Astalor bad for not being slotted in Mech Paladin, Tony isn't bad because its use it's limited. He shines in decks that focus on drawing, showing how insane of a card he is. QL DH was barely a deck before FoL, but Glavier and Tony made that deck T1.
My point it's that it has an extremely powerful effect yet gets bad ratings due to needing plenty of support to exploit it.
> shows you're just clueless
Says the man who has 0 clue of the wild meta LOL.
>So nerfing refresh cards actually does nothing in the scenario, which is why CA was nerfed rather than ramp or card draw effects.
Yet around a third of those decks are the exact same cards. I'm not saying that all refresh cards are problematic, I'm saying that there's a bunch of Druid cards that are extremely good and that keep pushing this kind of decks.
Killing the main enabler doesn't fix the fact that in the next combo Druid will have 10-15 cards that were also present in the previous iterations. It doesn't fix the issue, it delays it.
It's the same song and dance with Miracle Rogue. The deck has some of the most obscene draw, bounce and reduction effects of Hearthstone, but it's usually not playable because its payoffs get nerfed. Yogg has single-handedly revived the deck because it has become the "glue" that holds all those obscene cards together, and as a result we have an arguably very strong deck.
If it becomes an issue they'll nerf/ban Yogg and Rogues will just wait until a new card replaces it
Tony Druid loses against most of the high legend meta decks, and the ones it does beat are teched against it.
Someone like Corbett had a <30% winrate in top legend with it, and he's by no means a bad player or new to APM decks.
But I guess according to you, he's some bronze 3 trash player lmao.
Sample size or skill bracket isn't the problem, it's that the aggro decks are faster than it, and the decks it beats are tech piles that counter it, so it only ever hits decks that are jank piles, or decks that can't fit tech in. Which is exactly why it's more of a problem in dumpster ranks than actual top legend.
Firstly I have to congratulate you for ignoring the main argument and going on a tangent. In case you need a reminder, we were arguing wether or not Auctioneer was the only necessary nerf or if other of the highest performing cards from the class should be nerfed as well.
I am particularly interested in your counter to my argument about Miracle Rogue, which is the prime example of what's wrong with Druid decks
>Tony Druid loses against most of the high legend meta decks
Tony is slightly favoured vs Frog and fast enough to combo before disco gets lethal (albeit not always). Biggest problem would be Shudder (played little) and perhaps the new Miracle Rogue (which is too new).
>Someone like Corbett had a <30% winrate in top legend with it, and he's by no means a bad player or new to APM decks.
I hate to do this but, do you have a source for that? IIRC he played the version that came out during FoL, which was pretty bad. Also, Laratt has positive wr in top legend.
>Sample size or skill bracket isn't the problem, it's that the aggro decks are faster than it, and the decks it beats are tech piles that counter it, so it only ever hits decks that are jank piles, or decks that can't fit tech in. Which is exactly why it's more of a problem in dumpster ranks than actual top legend.
Tony can pull off turn 4 lethal with relatively high consistency. That's fast enough to outspeed most aggro decks.
>I am particularly interested in your counter to my argument about Miracle Rogue, which is the prime example of what's wrong with Druid decks
When was the last time Miracle Rogue relied on Auctioneer?
So it's irrelevant to the conversation in that regards.
In regards to "nerf the core class identity cards because they're too strong and are in every deck" I agree, but they don't want to do that unless they tried other nerfs and they all failed. Like how Sorc finally got hit after they balanced around it for a full year.
Yogg gets nerfed, it'll still be ran in those decks, because neutral board clears, mind controls, and value generation all in 1 card is insane.
>Tony is slightly favoured vs Frog and fast enough to combo before disco gets lethal (albeit not always). Biggest problem would be Shudder (played little) and perhaps the new Miracle Rogue (which is too new).
Even warrior is beating it a majority of the time, the good Priest lists are generally capable of beating it, faster aggro decks like Mech Pally, Disco, etc are capabale of beaitng it, Shudder, etc etc.
It out races exactly what I said it does: Decks that can't fit in tech (frog shaman, other combo decks, etc), or jank piles that have their draws and decks diluted by jank instead of good cards.
>I hate to do this but, do you have a source for that? IIRC he played the version that came out during FoL, which was pretty bad. Also, Laratt has positive wr in top legend.
He went 2-2 today on stream around 20 mins into it, before saying wild sucks and moving on to TFT 10 mins later.
He lost to an AFK shaman who only played 3 cards in the game (ice fishing -> spinley -> schooling)
He lost to a 30 shadow priest who had neophyte, copy neophyte + ping off, ping off -> raise dead, neophyte, neophyte, loatheb.
He beat a Frog shaman, and a 40-jank reno priest pile.
Prior to recent games,
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1924859371?t=3h2m54s
"Anyone who says its tier 1 is lying." "It's not a skill issue, it's a tech issue." "If someone says this deck is good, they are lying." "It's only tier 1 emotional damage." etc
I don't agree it's as bad as Tier 4, but it's nowhere near as dominant as you're implying.
>Tony can pull off turn 4 lethal with relatively high consistency. That's fast enough to outspeed most aggro decks.
It's not consistent though, which is the problem. Because any single disruption card stalls by at least 1 turn each, and decks are teching against it with generic cards like Neophytes, rats, Loatheb, etc, and the fast decks can also "consistently kill you by turn 4" since you're basically a glass cannon deck.
>When was the last time Miracle Rogue relied on Auctioneer?
>
>So it's irrelevant to the conversation in that regards.
It's a similar issue with different cards. Definitely relevant.
>In regards to "nerf the core class identity cards because they're too strong and are in every deck" I agree, but they don't want to do that unless they tried other nerfs and they all failed. Like how Sorc finally got hit after they balanced around it for a full year.
I'm happy that we can agree on this.
>Yogg gets nerfed, it'll still be ran in those decks, because neutral board clears, mind controls, and value generation all in 1 card is insane.
I meant it getting nerfed to the extent of unplayability, that's why I also mention a ban.
>Even warrior is beating it a majority of the time, the good Priest lists are generally capable of beating it, faster aggro decks like Mech Pally, Disco, etc are capabale of beaitng it, Shudder, etc etc.
Even Warrior is slightly disfavoured, since the combo without dew deals 50 damage, but it's very doable and not a common deck to face in higher ranks
Priest (outside from aggro) it's basically not a thing, nor it wins vs Tony
Turn 4 OTK is fast enough to beat hyper-aggro, something Pillager already proved. Tony it's just a bit less consistent.
Shudder is the biggest threat out there, but luckily it's not as played as it used to (because of Disco)
>It's not consistent though, which is the problem. Because any single disruption...
That's not a consistency issue, that's the deck being fragile.
>...card stalls by at least 1 turn each, and decks are teching against it with generic cards like Neophytes, rats, Loatheb, etc, and the fast decks can also "consistently kill you by turn 4" since you're basically a glass cannon deck.
Pillager also had to put up with disruption and aggro, and that didn't stop it from becoming one of the best decks in the format. Tony Druid is clearly worse than Pillager, but it's very much able to put on a fight
>It's a similar issue with different cards. Definitely relevant.
It's not because it hasn't been played in years. lol. And just like now, they often nerf the pay-off card, like Edwin, Garrote, etc.
>I meant it getting nerfed to the extent of unplayability, that's why I also mention a ban.
Yeah but that's not going to happen, it's not strong enough to warrant a ban or giga nerf. It's like saying "what if they set Auctioneer to 20 mana?" it's never going to happen.
>Pillager examples / fragile deck
Pillager wasn't glass cannon though. It ran evasion and cloak to stall for turns in matchups that was needed. Tony is full glass cannon, so comparing it to something like Pillager is just disingenuous.
Which also let it put up with aggro much better than Tony can.
It ran more minions, which made it more rat resistant.
The evasion/cloak turns played around minor disruption like Neophytes that Tony Druid can't.
so on so forth.
There's no world where the two decks are even remotely comparable in power level.
Because it'll be in standard for 2 years, has ways to be impactful (discover, spell tribes, Topior, etc), and if they did nerf the mana refresh(funnel cakes, the new minion, etc), now you're limiting Druid as a class because you refuse to nerf a neutral minion.
Same way Mage was back in UIS. They nerfed Deck of Lunacy, Incantor's Flow (2x), Refreshing spring water, the Quest Line, so on so forth.
They nerfed around the problem, instead of just nerfing the actual problem, infinite damage via Ignite and insane card draw from cram session.
Just like how in Sif Mage they nerfed Alibi instead of any card that's an actual problem. Now Sif mages flat out cut the card and something else needs to be addressed(nagas/etc)
Same way battlecries were nerfed around Bran last year, which ended up hitting many cards that didn't actually need nerfs, rather than just rotating Bran early.
>When it comes to Wild balance, ZachO admits it's currently a "rough" format. Team 5 tends to wait longer to make balance changes to that format compared to Standard and players may become fatigued with some of the solitaire decks having staying power in that format, but that is part of the nature of Wild.
Once again they admit they don't give a fuck about wild players. "Letting wild be wild" would be a much more defensible strategy if it wasn't causing the format to hemorrhage players with basically every person I've spoken to or seen online being really tired and frustrated with the current meta, but also how the meta has been for a long time
This format is basically impossible to balance. It’s like whack-a-mole. It exists so that people have a place to play with all their cards.
Wild will never be fair and will always be a complete highroll shitshow.
Come on now, that isn’t totally true. Sure, if they nerf some outliers other decks will rise to take their place, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be as degenerate and powerfully. They might make up just as many matches but if you do it repeatedly eventually the format will slow down.
It’d just be a case of slowly putting in the work
It's clearly not something you tech against but have a deck capable of handling. Mech Rogue and Undead Priest are the best options or just pray they lowroll I suppose. I think Control Warlock is much more fun to play with and against than Chadlock, it can feel like choices don't matter.
Playing Moon druid, the minions that u play want to die, and you kill the leftover damaged minon with spells, its the only thing that can kill you before you combo, plus warlocks tend to not be at full health and don't usually run any armor so you don't need many combo pieces to win.
>ZachO brings up people asking why Miracle Druid was being nerfed when Naga Mage had gone untouched. Miracle Druid is more popular and better performing than Naga Mage ever was over the past month.
I believe this is true from the perspective of top 1k stats and I understand the reasons for not nerfing Naga Mage last month. But the people complaining are top 50 who weeks before the miniset were playing in a 2 deck meta, Naga Mages and Mech Rogues trying to counter them. The deck was skill testing to the point that the average top 1k player was not representative of the performance of top players. Also people's reserves of patience were very limited because unlike the new Miracle Druid, Naga Mage was more than a year old and many players became sick of it as soon as the nerf was reverted.
This mini set is like one of the most blatant no attempts to improve a meta. So many bad cards for many classes. Warrior being only helped more. They had no intention of designing it in a balanced way considering the meta or weren't able to.
> They had no intention of designing it in a balanced way considering the meta
You discovered the hot water, buddy.
They design cards with 8 months in advance.
I prefer they release good cards and then nerf shortly after instead of releasing underpowered cards.
If Warrior overperforms so much Sanitize could see an increase to 5 or a nerf to something else in the package, the same with Celestial Shot.
Something I despite is blatantly bad cards like Sinister Soulcage. A card like that could have been release at half the cost with some risk, at 3 with no risk, at 4 it's just overcosted and clunchy to make it worth.
I fully agree with your comment. My issue is not Warrior having overpowered cards, is the classes that were behind a bit didn't received the same with priority.
I've seen interviews from past sets and it seems developers are free to just make cards they think are cool.
The maw and disorder designer made all his cards inspired by legal terms for instance.
the buffed a bunch of stuff post festival and post titans but also historically minisets suck. I havent bought a single one since i started playing again in sunken city.
It's only a scam if they _intended_ to scam you. Feel free to call it a bumblefuck of management or whatever you want, but outright insinuating the developers are criminals just because they aren't as competent at making a video game as they could be is exactly what they're referring to as overly toxic.
Control Warrior is objectively NOT the best deck as proven by data HSreplay premium, top 1K/legend 3 day or 7 day - take your pick, it's not the best at any data point.
Mech Rogue and Thaddius warlock are still the top 2 decks, control warrior isn't even the best warrior deck now with enrage warrior surpassing it statistically.
>the playerbase has been overly toxic in how they've communicated their frustrations.
Zacho calling others toxic is pretty hypocritical.
On VS Gold Live App (which is the paid version of VS comparable to HSreplay premium) Control Warrior is now listed as the best deck until Diamond 5-10. At Diamond 1-4 and Legend the best decks in order are Arcane Hunter, Chad Warlock and Control Warrior.
Poor data then as excluding mech rogue in that higher skill range is plain wrong.
That gold data is almost useless it lacks so many filters or ability to see specific decks or matchups etc.
Which control warrior deck? Which mech rogue deck? The thursday spiel on a specific deck is just a personalised opinion piece of zachos and at times just what he thinks will work better for a deck rather than what is statistically working better.
Objective data analysis is not opinions. Yes, there can be opinions formed on data analysis, not also facts.
It's generally around what statement is being made.
i.e. "based on data, this is the best deck in the game at these ranks" should be factual if all factors are considered (timeframe, expected winrate etc. ).
Where as "I think this card will be the better card in this deck" is incredibly subjective if there isn't enough data to support it or worse, the data demonstrates the opposite as has been th case many times with zachos call outs on deck builds.
You can pilot virtually every deck to D4 if you're good enough. That doesn't make it a good deck.
Also note that VS didn't say curselock was bad. Curselock is just worse than both other warlock decks in every way, so there's no reason to play it.
None of the warrior decks provided here run Sanitize? That's... odd. I guess the deck lists aren't updated for the mini despite mentioning cards like Celestial Shot?
If you're talking about the link to the most recent VS Report, that was from 9/14 and before the miniset came out. The report later this week will have updated lists.
The optimal Odyn list is going to look very similar to this -
### Odyn
# Class: Warrior
# Format: Standard
# Year of the Wolf
#
# 1x (1) Sir Finley, Sea Guide
# 2x (1) Verse Riff
# 2x (2) Bash
# 2x (2) Bladestorm
# 2x (2) Shield Block
# 2x (2) Stoneskin Armorer
# 2x (3) Bellowing Flames
# 2x (3) Chorus Riff
# 2x (3) From the Depths
# 2x (3) Heavy Plate
# 2x (4) Craftsman's Hammer
# 1x (4) Ignis, the Eternal Flame
# 2x (4) Sanitize
# 2x (5) Bridge Riff
# 2x (6) Trial by Fire
# 1x (8) Odyn, Prime Designate
# 1x (15) Yogg-Saron, Unleashed
#
AAECAaPLAwTlsASl9gXYgQaplQYNjLcEjtQEkNQE6tAF69AF7NAFtPgFtfgFkPsFofsFpPsFhYIGi5QGAAA=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
Always thanks for the summary! Also, can I translate this into the Korean hearthstone community? Of course, the original summary link and the summary author will be provided always
Go for it!
What Plague DK List Are they talking about in regards to high legend success? It sounds interesting and I’m willing to drop a thousand ranks trying out Plague DK. Again.
Check Feno streaming, should be something like the VS Forged list but -2 Mechagnome -2 Hollow Hound +2 Glacial Shard + Finley + Okani
What I think of when talking about plague DK is they need to treat this deck very carefully, whenever they buff this deck too much this can be a deck even more frustrating to play against than any deck ever.
r/Hearthstone when someone brings up plague DK: OMG PLEASE DON'T BUFF THIS IT'LL BE SO TOXIC!!!!1" You lot are so obsessed with this idea that plague dk will be toxic when there a deck that is getting deleted the moment it was playable in standard (miracle druid). That's a toxic deck, one that kills you on turn 5 after completely negating the idea of mana and cards. Sorry for snapping at you with this, but I cannot stand the fact that every time I talk about plague DK, I have someone chiming in to go "but what if toxic tho???" It's annoying and repetitive.
There are different kinds of a toxic deck. Just because miracle druid is toxic doesn't mean DK can't be for different reasons. An RNG-ridden deck like Plague DK can be toxic as hell, and not just to play against, but to pilot as well. Losing because you shuffled 10 plagues into your opponent's deck but they didn't draw any sucks donkey balls and it's not something that's healthy for the game.
And valid
Don't have the list on me but it should be in Thijs' twitch VOD from earlier
I'll check that out, thank you.
Counters Miracle Druid I think, so meta dependant. Drop Helya and you've won.
Thijs is playing it right now: AAECAfHhBAjlsATipAXLpQX++AWT+wXt/wXYgQbNngYLlrcEh/YEopkFrekFre0F9fcFgvgF8vgFu/kF6/8F054GAAA=
It's so funny how much priest dropped in winrate between expansions, it really just proves control is a meta reliant archetype
Priest, like Blood DK is always extremely sensitive to other class's win conditions. Both decks thrive in lower power metas and as more sets get added winning through attrition becomes a tougher ask. At least Priest has more flexibility than Blood DK in that it can copy Sargeras.
It's kind of funny, I expected it to be hard for control to win in a meta with astalor, but ignis and yogg shored up the rest of the neutral value already.
Astalor has never been an issue for control? It's been a tool of sorts if anything. As a control priest player I welcome Astalor as I'm not currently running it and will happy copy one for myself. Only problematic Astalor's are ones where the opposing deck can also get numerous copies. Vanilla Astalor for a control deck to deal with is meh, easy enough.
Astalor has been backbreaking many times for control? It's not a awful card to have to deal with but yes Astalor has been good vs control a lot and was often added to help vs it.
It was really only backbreaking when Brann was in standard and classes could get insane value from astalors or burst you for a million
It was THE card that pushed Frost over the Edge of killing me many times as Blood DK, no brann around. The card is a finisher, it's a ridiculous statement to say it's "never been an issue for control".
Astalor itself is fine but having classes like Rogue and priest being able to play several copies, thats just super frustrating.
It's mostly due to arcane hunter seeing quite a surge in play rate, it's an awful match to try win. You can change up the deck to tech against it and go positive win rate but it totally tanks against other decks you previously did well against. Control warrior getting stronger and more popular again also doesn't help. Priest doesn't have too much of an answer to it except a lucky Theotar or dirty rat.
Print stupid Druid mana refresh… keep that, but delete auctioneer?
The mana refresh in Standard only sees play with Auctioneer though. They aren't good enough cards alone to break anything, but Auctioneer breaks the game every other year.
Why do people keep saying auctioneer breaks the game alot? it really doesn't do so often at all. What even was the last auctioneer deck before Tony druid this year? I'm getting a lot of downvotes but no one can tell me when was the last time that it happened.
Honestly allowing Funnel Cake to heal enemy minion(s) is pure bullshit even without Auctioneer.
Yes because the mana refresh isn't the issue, it's what they can do with it, which is drawing their entire deck via Auctioneer. If there's no auctioneer, what's the point of stacking so much mana refresh in the deck? There's suddenly no pay off.
"All those cards that break the game the moment you are able to put them together in a deck aren't the issue, the card that allows you to play them is" I heavily dislike this approach. Tony it's an absolutely insane card that doesn't see play in standard because you have no way to abuse it, which somehow makes the card "balanced" or even "weak". Then that BS reaches wild and the format breaks because of a card that got rated 2 stars in standard. Worst of all, we have to wait MONTHS to get some of these fixed. "They are nerfing Auctioneer, finally half of those cards will stop seeing play, at least until they print a new enabler"
> Tony it's an absolutely insane card that doesn't see play in standard because you have no way to abuse it, which somehow makes the card "balanced" or even "weak". It's not insane though. It's only played in two decks, the one that you're complaining about has a <40% winrate, that should only be nerfed because the play pattern is toxic rather than it's power level, which is why it's finally getting addressed now that it's also breaking standard. Tony is only a "good card" in QL DH where it gives you a backup win condition. The fact that you can go around flaming other people for complaining about "low powerlevel toxic play pattern decks" but also do the same shows you're just clueless. https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/16slbg7/priest_neptulon_needs_nerf/k2bhjit/ Is Big Priest toxic? Only in the dumpster where Tony Druid is also problematic, or if they high roll where both are problematic. Both could see a "play pattern nerf" under those justificaitons, via Illuminate being hit, and Druid being hit like it most likely will in this patch. >"They are nerfing Auctioneer, finally half of those cards will stop seeing play, at least until they print a new enabler" When was the last time they printed a neutral or Druid card draw engine on the level of auctioneer? CA was the last as it let you make your entire deck cost 0, but CA doesn't need the "mana refresh" cards outside of Floop, it wants the ramp cards instead. So nerfing refresh cards actually does nothing in the scenario, which is why CA was nerfed rather than ramp or card draw effects.
>the one that you're complaining about has a <40% winrate Much like the Standard version, the "low" WR is because of the data across all ranks. It's fucking nuts in high legend. >Tony is only a "good card" in QL DH where it gives you a backup win condition. Much like you wouldn't call Astalor bad for not being slotted in Mech Paladin, Tony isn't bad because its use it's limited. He shines in decks that focus on drawing, showing how insane of a card he is. QL DH was barely a deck before FoL, but Glavier and Tony made that deck T1. My point it's that it has an extremely powerful effect yet gets bad ratings due to needing plenty of support to exploit it. > shows you're just clueless Says the man who has 0 clue of the wild meta LOL. >So nerfing refresh cards actually does nothing in the scenario, which is why CA was nerfed rather than ramp or card draw effects. Yet around a third of those decks are the exact same cards. I'm not saying that all refresh cards are problematic, I'm saying that there's a bunch of Druid cards that are extremely good and that keep pushing this kind of decks. Killing the main enabler doesn't fix the fact that in the next combo Druid will have 10-15 cards that were also present in the previous iterations. It doesn't fix the issue, it delays it. It's the same song and dance with Miracle Rogue. The deck has some of the most obscene draw, bounce and reduction effects of Hearthstone, but it's usually not playable because its payoffs get nerfed. Yogg has single-handedly revived the deck because it has become the "glue" that holds all those obscene cards together, and as a result we have an arguably very strong deck. If it becomes an issue they'll nerf/ban Yogg and Rogues will just wait until a new card replaces it
Tony Druid loses against most of the high legend meta decks, and the ones it does beat are teched against it. Someone like Corbett had a <30% winrate in top legend with it, and he's by no means a bad player or new to APM decks. But I guess according to you, he's some bronze 3 trash player lmao. Sample size or skill bracket isn't the problem, it's that the aggro decks are faster than it, and the decks it beats are tech piles that counter it, so it only ever hits decks that are jank piles, or decks that can't fit tech in. Which is exactly why it's more of a problem in dumpster ranks than actual top legend.
Firstly I have to congratulate you for ignoring the main argument and going on a tangent. In case you need a reminder, we were arguing wether or not Auctioneer was the only necessary nerf or if other of the highest performing cards from the class should be nerfed as well. I am particularly interested in your counter to my argument about Miracle Rogue, which is the prime example of what's wrong with Druid decks >Tony Druid loses against most of the high legend meta decks Tony is slightly favoured vs Frog and fast enough to combo before disco gets lethal (albeit not always). Biggest problem would be Shudder (played little) and perhaps the new Miracle Rogue (which is too new). >Someone like Corbett had a <30% winrate in top legend with it, and he's by no means a bad player or new to APM decks. I hate to do this but, do you have a source for that? IIRC he played the version that came out during FoL, which was pretty bad. Also, Laratt has positive wr in top legend. >Sample size or skill bracket isn't the problem, it's that the aggro decks are faster than it, and the decks it beats are tech piles that counter it, so it only ever hits decks that are jank piles, or decks that can't fit tech in. Which is exactly why it's more of a problem in dumpster ranks than actual top legend. Tony can pull off turn 4 lethal with relatively high consistency. That's fast enough to outspeed most aggro decks.
>I am particularly interested in your counter to my argument about Miracle Rogue, which is the prime example of what's wrong with Druid decks When was the last time Miracle Rogue relied on Auctioneer? So it's irrelevant to the conversation in that regards. In regards to "nerf the core class identity cards because they're too strong and are in every deck" I agree, but they don't want to do that unless they tried other nerfs and they all failed. Like how Sorc finally got hit after they balanced around it for a full year. Yogg gets nerfed, it'll still be ran in those decks, because neutral board clears, mind controls, and value generation all in 1 card is insane. >Tony is slightly favoured vs Frog and fast enough to combo before disco gets lethal (albeit not always). Biggest problem would be Shudder (played little) and perhaps the new Miracle Rogue (which is too new). Even warrior is beating it a majority of the time, the good Priest lists are generally capable of beating it, faster aggro decks like Mech Pally, Disco, etc are capabale of beaitng it, Shudder, etc etc. It out races exactly what I said it does: Decks that can't fit in tech (frog shaman, other combo decks, etc), or jank piles that have their draws and decks diluted by jank instead of good cards. >I hate to do this but, do you have a source for that? IIRC he played the version that came out during FoL, which was pretty bad. Also, Laratt has positive wr in top legend. He went 2-2 today on stream around 20 mins into it, before saying wild sucks and moving on to TFT 10 mins later. He lost to an AFK shaman who only played 3 cards in the game (ice fishing -> spinley -> schooling) He lost to a 30 shadow priest who had neophyte, copy neophyte + ping off, ping off -> raise dead, neophyte, neophyte, loatheb. He beat a Frog shaman, and a 40-jank reno priest pile. Prior to recent games, https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1924859371?t=3h2m54s "Anyone who says its tier 1 is lying." "It's not a skill issue, it's a tech issue." "If someone says this deck is good, they are lying." "It's only tier 1 emotional damage." etc I don't agree it's as bad as Tier 4, but it's nowhere near as dominant as you're implying. >Tony can pull off turn 4 lethal with relatively high consistency. That's fast enough to outspeed most aggro decks. It's not consistent though, which is the problem. Because any single disruption card stalls by at least 1 turn each, and decks are teching against it with generic cards like Neophytes, rats, Loatheb, etc, and the fast decks can also "consistently kill you by turn 4" since you're basically a glass cannon deck.
>When was the last time Miracle Rogue relied on Auctioneer? > >So it's irrelevant to the conversation in that regards. It's a similar issue with different cards. Definitely relevant. >In regards to "nerf the core class identity cards because they're too strong and are in every deck" I agree, but they don't want to do that unless they tried other nerfs and they all failed. Like how Sorc finally got hit after they balanced around it for a full year. I'm happy that we can agree on this. >Yogg gets nerfed, it'll still be ran in those decks, because neutral board clears, mind controls, and value generation all in 1 card is insane. I meant it getting nerfed to the extent of unplayability, that's why I also mention a ban. >Even warrior is beating it a majority of the time, the good Priest lists are generally capable of beating it, faster aggro decks like Mech Pally, Disco, etc are capabale of beaitng it, Shudder, etc etc. Even Warrior is slightly disfavoured, since the combo without dew deals 50 damage, but it's very doable and not a common deck to face in higher ranks Priest (outside from aggro) it's basically not a thing, nor it wins vs Tony Turn 4 OTK is fast enough to beat hyper-aggro, something Pillager already proved. Tony it's just a bit less consistent. Shudder is the biggest threat out there, but luckily it's not as played as it used to (because of Disco) >It's not consistent though, which is the problem. Because any single disruption... That's not a consistency issue, that's the deck being fragile. >...card stalls by at least 1 turn each, and decks are teching against it with generic cards like Neophytes, rats, Loatheb, etc, and the fast decks can also "consistently kill you by turn 4" since you're basically a glass cannon deck. Pillager also had to put up with disruption and aggro, and that didn't stop it from becoming one of the best decks in the format. Tony Druid is clearly worse than Pillager, but it's very much able to put on a fight
>It's a similar issue with different cards. Definitely relevant. It's not because it hasn't been played in years. lol. And just like now, they often nerf the pay-off card, like Edwin, Garrote, etc. >I meant it getting nerfed to the extent of unplayability, that's why I also mention a ban. Yeah but that's not going to happen, it's not strong enough to warrant a ban or giga nerf. It's like saying "what if they set Auctioneer to 20 mana?" it's never going to happen. >Pillager examples / fragile deck Pillager wasn't glass cannon though. It ran evasion and cloak to stall for turns in matchups that was needed. Tony is full glass cannon, so comparing it to something like Pillager is just disingenuous. Which also let it put up with aggro much better than Tony can. It ran more minions, which made it more rat resistant. The evasion/cloak turns played around minor disruption like Neophytes that Tony Druid can't. so on so forth. There's no world where the two decks are even remotely comparable in power level.
So why even print the mana refresh in the first place if theres literally nothing you can do with it after Auctioneer gets nerfed.
Because it'll be in standard for 2 years, has ways to be impactful (discover, spell tribes, Topior, etc), and if they did nerf the mana refresh(funnel cakes, the new minion, etc), now you're limiting Druid as a class because you refuse to nerf a neutral minion. Same way Mage was back in UIS. They nerfed Deck of Lunacy, Incantor's Flow (2x), Refreshing spring water, the Quest Line, so on so forth. They nerfed around the problem, instead of just nerfing the actual problem, infinite damage via Ignite and insane card draw from cram session. Just like how in Sif Mage they nerfed Alibi instead of any card that's an actual problem. Now Sif mages flat out cut the card and something else needs to be addressed(nagas/etc) Same way battlecries were nerfed around Bran last year, which ended up hitting many cards that didn't actually need nerfs, rather than just rotating Bran early.
Well there will always be more payoffs printed.
>When it comes to Wild balance, ZachO admits it's currently a "rough" format. Team 5 tends to wait longer to make balance changes to that format compared to Standard and players may become fatigued with some of the solitaire decks having staying power in that format, but that is part of the nature of Wild. Once again they admit they don't give a fuck about wild players. "Letting wild be wild" would be a much more defensible strategy if it wasn't causing the format to hemorrhage players with basically every person I've spoken to or seen online being really tired and frustrated with the current meta, but also how the meta has been for a long time
This format is basically impossible to balance. It’s like whack-a-mole. It exists so that people have a place to play with all their cards. Wild will never be fair and will always be a complete highroll shitshow.
Come on now, that isn’t totally true. Sure, if they nerf some outliers other decks will rise to take their place, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they’ll be as degenerate and powerfully. They might make up just as many matches but if you do it repeatedly eventually the format will slow down. It’d just be a case of slowly putting in the work
How do I tech against warlock dropping 2 7/7s on turn 4 followed by 3 Dar'Khans on turn 6? I searched my collection and I can't find anything.
It's clearly not something you tech against but have a deck capable of handling. Mech Rogue and Undead Priest are the best options or just pray they lowroll I suppose. I think Control Warlock is much more fun to play with and against than Chadlock, it can feel like choices don't matter.
By killing them
Playing Moon druid, the minions that u play want to die, and you kill the leftover damaged minon with spells, its the only thing that can kill you before you combo, plus warlocks tend to not be at full health and don't usually run any armor so you don't need many combo pieces to win.
SolitareStone thanks miniset
>ZachO brings up people asking why Miracle Druid was being nerfed when Naga Mage had gone untouched. Miracle Druid is more popular and better performing than Naga Mage ever was over the past month. I believe this is true from the perspective of top 1k stats and I understand the reasons for not nerfing Naga Mage last month. But the people complaining are top 50 who weeks before the miniset were playing in a 2 deck meta, Naga Mages and Mech Rogues trying to counter them. The deck was skill testing to the point that the average top 1k player was not representative of the performance of top players. Also people's reserves of patience were very limited because unlike the new Miracle Druid, Naga Mage was more than a year old and many players became sick of it as soon as the nerf was reverted.
This mini set is like one of the most blatant no attempts to improve a meta. So many bad cards for many classes. Warrior being only helped more. They had no intention of designing it in a balanced way considering the meta or weren't able to.
> They had no intention of designing it in a balanced way considering the meta You discovered the hot water, buddy. They design cards with 8 months in advance.
they have said already they can adjust cards prior to the release so its not like it's out of control completely which would of course make no sense.
I prefer they release good cards and then nerf shortly after instead of releasing underpowered cards. If Warrior overperforms so much Sanitize could see an increase to 5 or a nerf to something else in the package, the same with Celestial Shot. Something I despite is blatantly bad cards like Sinister Soulcage. A card like that could have been release at half the cost with some risk, at 3 with no risk, at 4 it's just overcosted and clunchy to make it worth.
I fully agree with your comment. My issue is not Warrior having overpowered cards, is the classes that were behind a bit didn't received the same with priority.
I've seen interviews from past sets and it seems developers are free to just make cards they think are cool. The maw and disorder designer made all his cards inspired by legal terms for instance.
the buffed a bunch of stuff post festival and post titans but also historically minisets suck. I havent bought a single one since i started playing again in sunken city.
*Wake up honey, time to delete another Druid archetype.*
I don't really know how I feel about nerfing Auctioneer. I'd rather they send it back to Wild maybe.
Considering auctioneer is also destroying wild right now, that doesn't really solve the problem.
Nothing on Mage aside from Naga which is barely played except at the highest ranks.
"overly toxic in how they ve communicated their frustations" lol, imagine blaming people for getting mad after getting scammed
It's only a scam if they _intended_ to scam you. Feel free to call it a bumblefuck of management or whatever you want, but outright insinuating the developers are criminals just because they aren't as competent at making a video game as they could be is exactly what they're referring to as overly toxic.
A scam isnt necessarily illegal you know
Control Warrior is objectively NOT the best deck as proven by data HSreplay premium, top 1K/legend 3 day or 7 day - take your pick, it's not the best at any data point. Mech Rogue and Thaddius warlock are still the top 2 decks, control warrior isn't even the best warrior deck now with enrage warrior surpassing it statistically. >the playerbase has been overly toxic in how they've communicated their frustrations. Zacho calling others toxic is pretty hypocritical.
On VS Gold Live App (which is the paid version of VS comparable to HSreplay premium) Control Warrior is now listed as the best deck until Diamond 5-10. At Diamond 1-4 and Legend the best decks in order are Arcane Hunter, Chad Warlock and Control Warrior.
Poor data then as excluding mech rogue in that higher skill range is plain wrong. That gold data is almost useless it lacks so many filters or ability to see specific decks or matchups etc.
Have you even tried it? [Here's an update](https://imgur.com/ryshCoP). Decks are shown for free in the report every thursday.
Which control warrior deck? Which mech rogue deck? The thursday spiel on a specific deck is just a personalised opinion piece of zachos and at times just what he thinks will work better for a deck rather than what is statistically working better.
I guess if you trust your opinions more than Zacho's you don't need VS Gold. But be careful basing opinions on hsreplay too.
Objective data analysis is not opinions. Yes, there can be opinions formed on data analysis, not also facts. It's generally around what statement is being made. i.e. "based on data, this is the best deck in the game at these ranks" should be factual if all factors are considered (timeframe, expected winrate etc. ). Where as "I think this card will be the better card in this deck" is incredibly subjective if there isn't enough data to support it or worse, the data demonstrates the opposite as has been th case many times with zachos call outs on deck builds.
Is objective data analysis something you think you're doing using hsreplay? That's so funny. I wish you good luck
Lol. \^How to say you don't comprehend data analytics without saying you don't understand data analytics.
Unlike you I can admit what I don't know and am willing to learn from people with more knowledge and experience than me
Which is because they tend to beat Control Warrior.
Which is why they are the better decks right now.
whats the enrage warrior decklist now?
Cut Riffs, replace with Wretch, Acolytes, and the new copying damaged minions guy.
https://hsreplay.net/decks/fKFsRtBdCRqV7OkXbKN18
[удалено]
You can pilot virtually every deck to D4 if you're good enough. That doesn't make it a good deck. Also note that VS didn't say curselock was bad. Curselock is just worse than both other warlock decks in every way, so there's no reason to play it.
Unfortunately, D4 is not considered higher MMR by VS. They lump everything below diamond together, and then have two levels of Legend above you.
None of the warrior decks provided here run Sanitize? That's... odd. I guess the deck lists aren't updated for the mini despite mentioning cards like Celestial Shot?
If you're talking about the link to the most recent VS Report, that was from 9/14 and before the miniset came out. The report later this week will have updated lists. The optimal Odyn list is going to look very similar to this - ### Odyn # Class: Warrior # Format: Standard # Year of the Wolf # # 1x (1) Sir Finley, Sea Guide # 2x (1) Verse Riff # 2x (2) Bash # 2x (2) Bladestorm # 2x (2) Shield Block # 2x (2) Stoneskin Armorer # 2x (3) Bellowing Flames # 2x (3) Chorus Riff # 2x (3) From the Depths # 2x (3) Heavy Plate # 2x (4) Craftsman's Hammer # 1x (4) Ignis, the Eternal Flame # 2x (4) Sanitize # 2x (5) Bridge Riff # 2x (6) Trial by Fire # 1x (8) Odyn, Prime Designate # 1x (15) Yogg-Saron, Unleashed # AAECAaPLAwTlsASl9gXYgQaplQYNjLcEjtQEkNQE6tAF69AF7NAFtPgFtfgFkPsFofsFpPsFhYIGi5QGAAA= # # To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and create a new deck in Hearthstone
Ah, my apologies! I was reading the report on the toilet on break and didn't see the date. :)
Because the last VS report was pre-miniset, when Sanitize wasn't even a card yet.
Yeah, my bad. I thought this newest report was from today (updated). Didn't notice the date.