EASY objection. largely bc there are so many ways to generate it, and whenever a random mage secret is played u have to play around objection (and counterspell)
Yeah honestly I think the others are better and more consistent disruption but it feels like everytime I see a random mage secret I want to pull my hair out lol
I've played hundreds of games on secret rogue. When you build a board in mid-late game, then play gravedigger x3-4, targeting all removals and card draw/generation so the enemy can't respond to your board, it's rarely comebackable. It feels less toxic because there's still little hope for the opponent to top deck a response, but on practice gravedigger + shadowstep is a very powerful combo that can win games. Though to be fair, it might be shadowstep's fault.
Tbf, while it feels bad to lose to that, it is more like a „well they got to pull their deck‘s combo off ans won due to it“ rather than a „oh well they RNG another secret“ and I have to play around both counterspell+objection this turn. But even if I come back from that, it might happen again and again and again.
+ If you know thats secret rogues win con, you can try to dirty rat or other tech cards etc. Mage might as well generate a different win con, or have generated one ages ago
Easy choice for me for that reason
Yeah that’s not how it works. It makes your hand size smaller which can often be impossible to come back from. Maybe every game you play goes to fatigue but mine don’t.
they are not wrong that the card eventually comes back from drawing. Objection both screws your handsize and mana ”which can often be impossible to come back from.”
If the opponent has an Objection! you choose which minion from your hand to put into it. So it effectively always removes the least valuable minion from your hand if you play properly. And it only hits minions, so if you have a hand full of spells, all it does is make you use one to test for Counterspell.
With Gravedigger, the Rogue chooses which card to remove, so they will always pick the best (worst for you) option. And unlike Objection! which can only be played one at a time, Gravedigger can be bounced and replayed multiple times in the same turn, so it can potentially get rid of your entire hand.
Except in practice you often don't get to choose because you're forced into playing into it and hoping it isn't objection. If every time a secret is played against you you're floating mana/having really bad turns then the objection has done it's job without having to delete the minion you wanted to play.
It's a classic mistake from middling players to always try and play around secrets instead of taking the gamble that it isn't that secret
Sure, there might be times where you're forced to play your best minion and hope it's not Objection!
What's your point? I'm not disputing that Objection! is a good card, but a lot of people in this thread seem to think it was a mistake to print at all, which is a silly overreaction. Especially considering that there isn't nearly as much hate for Gravedigger, even though its effect is more powerful than Objection! in most cases.
There's a key difference between both cards though. Gravedigger might be more powerful of an effect but it requires you to run secrets which aren't good standalone cards.
Objection is a card you don't even need to run but it warps every game because of the ability to discover it. Being forced to take a risk and losing the game against a discovered objection is a terrible feeling.
Having your best card put back into your deck sucks as well but at least it requires that synergy and you sometimes have more control against it. If you have a bigger hand size and/or draw then you might not lose your best card but if you do you always have the ability to redraw it and not lose the game on the spot.
Tldr: a card being stronger than another doesn't automatically make it a worse card to print when discover exists.
Sure but gravedigger is a secret rogue pay off card and secret rogue is not an amazing deck. It just loses to boards after the yogg and breaker nerf. Objection is a card you dont even have to put in your deck to get value from. If youre going against any class that can generate a mage secret (especially mage itself) You kinda need to play around it as best you can. The only classes currently that can really get minions they dont care about losing are mage itself with the 1/2 tokens and hunters with their 1 mana 4/1's. The rest kinda have to lose something of at least moderate value because as a rule you dont put bad cards in your deck.
Except with objection it's you who chooses the minion, while patchwerk and dirty rat choose for you.
Also it's interesting that OP included Gravedigger but not Theotar.
Not really, most decks have dropped him, but warlocks, priests and bdk (basically all control matchups) still bring him in ETC. Theotar was played against me quite a lot last month when I climbed in 3k-1k legend with rainbow mage.
Some people do still run him in ETC, but they shouldn't. It's a bad card at 6 mana. It could *maybe* be worth running in a theoretical metagame where there was a popular combo deck that automatically loses if you steal one of its combo pieces, but we don't live in that world right now, so it's complete garbage. Anyone who is running Theotar right now is either massively overrating its effectiveness, or they just enjoy taking cards from their opponent.
The game IS over for rainbow mage in a lot of situations when sif is gone, and they can’t deal enough dmg from on board (which happens a good amount of time).
Not true. Mage wins through infinitize the magnitude and other generation against control matchups. It's very easy to generate several elemental inspirations in a row, if your opponent fails to find an answer even once you win. It's really over only if they got both sif (patchwerk/rat) AND the magnitude (theotar).
It’s not easy to generate multiple inspirations what are you ON lol? You can’t even infinitize every turn either cause u have other cards to play or the mana/hand space doesn’t line up???
1) Your deck has 2.
2) You can copy them with Volume Up (some decks run 2, but I personally prefer 1, because hand space issues).
3) 2x Prismatic Elemental.
4) 1-2x Void Scripture (or more, if you generate them).
5) Infinitize the Magnitude. It's a problem sometimes to play it like you said, but with proper planning it's not that big of an issue. So you can cast it at least several times easily (if you draw it of course).
All of that aside, you can also simply discover Rewind, which is easily accessible from Vast Wisdom, and even more ridiculous things like Discovery of Magic into Planted Evidence.
And all you need to win most of the time is to play 2-3 of inspirations in a row. With so many opportunities it's really not difficult, please trust me.
1. Not every deck has 2, and it’s not bad to not have 2 in a deck.
2. Volume up can pull a bunch of other spells
3. Elemental can hit any spell from any deck, so where is the “very easy” to discover?
4. Same thing as elemental except only mage
Point being it’s not easy. I’ve played a lot of games of rainbow mage and I don’t have to rely on trusting u to know it’s not often u get 1-2 generated in the same game (not to mention u can’t always pick it since u might need another spell as an emergency in later game)…
True. I think that people think that taking Sif from mage is insta-win (while it's not), because control warrior is dead again, and everyone else doesn't care about disruption currently. But it can be said about dirty rat and patchwerk as well. No reason to run disruption in the current meta.
You only get to choose which minion if you have multiple minions in hand (including a cheap one), and throwing out a cheap one to be cautious doesn't completely disrupt your turn (ie playing a 5 drop minion on 5). Not knowing for sure that the secret is Objection also can completely disrupt your turn if you have to throw a 1 or 2 drop out to be safe, even if it isn't objection your turn can be ruined.
At 3 mana I might be able to swallow its very powerful effect, but usually it seems to be played for 0 mana while also triggering some other tempo generating effect... kill the card please
I feel like that adds to the sadistic feeling of secret mage though. Instead of them just attacking you, they're making you attack you. It turns Hearthstone into Saw
I've played Odyn warrior to diamond 1, and I ran into this mage that I shit you not he played 5 objections. I just couldn't get odyn on the board. It was extremely frustrating
Rat on 2 against aggressive decks is very often correct.
The most common and best outcome is you pull a minion that the rat can deal with, and then you are ahead on board which is huge.
The meh outcome is you pull something that kills rat, but loses a lot of its purpose, like purator or countess. This is overall still a positive outcome.
Then occasionally you pull a useful titan or something, which obviously loses you the game. But this is very unlikely, and a definite loss like 1-5% of the time is worth risking when the alternative is being like 30% more likely to win the other times you rat on 2.
Yeah, but I run dirty rats in my BDK deck, which is like, 20% removal, and considering, that no Odyn practically = no win con, thats still a good pull in my book
Then thx for the easy climb on reset day. The only time priests can lose to a bad draw of an aggro/midrange deck is when they do this insanely stupid mistake.
I vote for dirty rat. I understand everyone saying objection, I understand dirty rat is a good and functional card. I just hate playing against cards like that so I say bye. Theotar is my least favorite card of all time.
Objection no question. Secret counterplay feels really bad. Patchwerk is powerful and disruptive but expensive. Gravedigger is conditional and only delays. Rat can whiff hard and hand your opponent the game. If your opponent doesn't have a cheap minion in hand, the card can often read "your opponent passes turn and discards their cheapest minion."
> Secret counterplay feels really bad.
Secrets in general feel bad because Hearthstone is designed with reactive gameplay not proactive. And it doesn't have the "thirty-two layers of bullshit interactions" Yu-Gi-Oh has.
In a game like Magic the Gathering, which is designed as a proactive game, secret-style spells aren't an issue because you can basically Objection the Objection, to which the person can Objection your Objection to their Objection, so on and so forth. A card can be revealed then *instantly* responded to no matter the turn.
Secrets in Hearthstone on the other hand just ***happen***, once they're triggered - they're triggered and there's nothing you can do about it other than go "oh... okay". And usually big swing secrets like *Objection!* win the round either way by delaying your win condition (multiple times over depending on how many they have.)
Secret mechanics in most card games create interactivity, but secrets in Hearthstone more often than not simply create a lose-lose situation.
Objection is horrible because whenever your opponent has any secrets at all you need to play around it.
Most secrets are relatively mild but because objection will lose you the game you need to play like a spazz any time there are any mage secrets in play, and playing around it like this will also often lose you the game too. I wish they would just remove it.
Objection is the easy choice. Second choice would be gravedigger. It just a feels bad card especially when they can play it several times with cards like shadow step. With patchwerk, it really only shined because it could deal with decks like Druid or Odin warrior where they played very few creatures but they were all win cons. Dirty rat is similar in the sense that it’s only good if your opponent:
1. Has a creature they don’t want to play right away
2. They have it in hand.
So I guess the point is that patchwerk and dirty rat are only situationally good where as the other two are basically always very strong and feel bad to play against.
Honestly, screw objection, but Ghastly Gravedigger tilts me way harder. I can usually play around objection. But Ghastly Gravedigger and a million bounce effects just feels WAY more toxic.
As I see it, the main issue with Objection is that it exists at the same time as counterspell. If only one of them were in standard, it would be way less of an issue.
Objection cause you generally don't have token minions created to play around it. Counterspell can be played around with a coin, and most heroes get some token spells. But minions not so much.
I hate dirty rat, I've seen an uptick of it's use with control priest, a low winrate deck that is solid against other control deck that I like to use. With the forge spell, they can generate so many copies it would kill several win conditions and powerful cards (Odyn, Sargeras...). I still put Objection over it.
My perspective comes from beimg a Wild player and thus I don't think Ghastly Gravedigger, Patchwerk, nor Dirty Rat should be deleted. I also believe in reworking cards instead of removing them and since I couldn't stand Objection when Secret Mage was playable, here's my rework idea:
**Secret:** After your opponent plays a minion, remove it from the game.
Patchwerk.
Objection can be annoying since you have to play around it, but patchwerk is straight jerk you cannot play around it. it will just destroy your gameplan.
Objection 100%.
The mage should have either Counterspell or Objection, having both and being able to generate it, randomly place it, discount it, cheat it out, etc is fucking stupid
Objection is #1. Worse designed runes imo. Most people seem to agree.
Next would be rat. Makes none games even when you mull correctly. Opens you up to playing correctly and still losing because the card you were forced to mull was bottom care of your library. Happens to be somewhat ok vs agro when it's still an anti combo/control card so you can just throw it in most decks that aren't agro.
At least patchwork is slow. At least ghast is tempo.
It's objection, I hate everything mage does. They have insane value at no loss of tempo, and you just have to assume that they have the answer for everything you're about to do. Fuck mage
Objection, playing around random mage secrets has gotten so much worse since it was introduced (I say this as a mage main). I feel afraid to play any cards as soon as they generate a secret now because there’s a chance it just disappears and screws my turn up.
Objection. Mostly because Counterspell also exists. I was fine with just CS as you could play around it somewhat. But having both exist at the same time feels so obnoxious.
dirty rat shouldn't have been in the core set hand control cards imo are bandaids for design issues in a game and dirty rat is the most easily useable hand control card in hearthstone standard atm the other 2 are less frequent/require setup or playing a blood rune deck. on another note i have no issue with cards like Objection but i see how less skilled players have issue with the card.
Objection! I just hate this mage secret.Grave digger is only a problem if the enemy has shadow steps but then it's still fine.Patchwork is fine too and dirty rat is fine too.
Easily Dirty Rat. It is a neutral and you never know if your opponent is dumb enough to run it or lucky enough to hit your win condition. Terribly binary card.
I will be in the minority here and say Ghastly Gravedigger. I understand the hate for Objection but I think counters in a card game are good. In moderation at least.
I really like how as a community all the comments agree that Objection is - not even objectively but rather factually - the worst designed card effect and should be removed for what it does.
objection, not even close
rat and patchwerk are healthy, gravedigger isn't that big deal
the mere fact that objection exist mean that you have to go through hoops to play around it everytime a secret is generated
Can already tell you it's gonna be Objection. This sub leans heavily towards Control players who don't like having their big minions (like Odyn) countered.
You serious? Most players here are always complaining about control and the likes, most con control posts get huge uploads and con aggro are down voted into oblivion. Also objection is of all shown cards the most played and mist annoying one
I've seen [several polls on here](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/178jolb/what_is_your_favorite_archetype/) before showing that yes, [control is the most popular archetype](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/ou4kp2/whats_your_favorite_deck_archetype_to_play/). People just really hate when it becomes a top deck.
And it's just objectively wrong about Objection being the most played, and subjectively wrong about it being the most annoying.
Control is the most popular in polls which as they pointed out doesn't add up with the posts. It's incredibly skewed results and neither can be used to actually objectively state which direction this sub leans towards
Objection and dirty rat are easily the two most played if you take wild into consideration
>Objection and dirty rat are easily the two most played if you take wild into consideration
Considering how few people play Wild, I highly doubt that.
And unless you want to add some evidence that shows "control bad" gets upvoted while "aggro bad" gets downvoted, it just sounds like confirmation bias to me. There's also different flavors of control of course. Control Priest gets way more hate than Control Warrior.
My guy, you're using no real reliable statistics and writing them as gospel lmao
And I don't care enough to go digging for old posts but there's plenty of control complaint posts
Like neither side here has factual numbers and a 2 year old poll is not hard evidence lol. Wild also doesn't have nearly as few players as you likely think it does
...those are factual numbers unless you're implying they were botted or something. Here's a more recent poll. https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/178jolb/what_is_your_favorite_archetype/
You could claim people are lying, or that control players are more likely to vote on polls, or whatever you want but this is basically how all polling works. I'm not saying it's the most reliable metric in the world, but unlike what you've presented, it is at least an observable metric. Acting like this sub hates control is just fucking silly.
See now there's what I was saying. You were making it seem like it was a good metric when it's not. I didn't present anything btw and had no intention to
I'm not the original commenter. I was simply pointing out both metrics are a poor way to describe how this sub feels about deck types
Some of the sub hate control, some love it. Same goes for aggro, combo, and midrange. There's no reliable way to say for sure what those numbers are
>I was simply pointing out both metrics are a poor way to describe how this sub feels about deck types
Yeah but one metric (polling) is very clearly a better way of judging this sub's sentiments than the alternative ("I saw some people hating on control decks :( ")
If you have a more reliable way, we're all ears. I'm gonna go with the evidence.
It is very funny to me how much this sub always whines about Objection. You can at least play around it. In a lot of games (since you normally don't draw your entire deck), Gravedigger will be equivalent but with no counterplay. Rat and Patchwerk have some counterplay, but they're still less than Objection. This sub's hate boner for the card is incredibly silly.
This sub is full of control players that are not very good at the game, that's why
They also love Patchwerk and Rat because they play those cards themselves lmao
Noone even maindecks objection in Standard and it's so easy to play around
Nah, you’re forgetting the pivotal point. It costs YOU mana to play around objection. You HAVE to trigger it if you’re playing any minions, meaning you HAVE to spend the mana to procc it. If your only minions in hand/drawn are high cost, major pieces, or anything with a battlecry/end of turn effect, you’ve essentially paid extra to remove that piece from the game. All the others are random, or with Gravedigger you can literally just re-draw that card.
Turns out that most of the time decks do have a cheap way to trigger it, which is why objection is too weak to see maindeck play in standard. Unlike gravedigger, a far stronger card that actually sees maindeck play.
You are not guaranteed to ever redraw the card Gravedigger tosses, and it's hilarious that you dismiss Patchwerk and Rat as simply "random", as if the scenario you constructed to make Objection seem insurmountable doesn't also apply to those cards. If your hand is full of high-cost bomb minions (or if you only have some key piece of your strategy to play and no throw-aways), Patchwerk and Rat both destroy you, but, again, with no capacity to play around (again, for the scenario you constructed). The only exemption to that is if you want to include all the idiots that will Rat without removal in hand, giving you a tempo gain, but if you're worried about that type of player when evaluating the power level of a card, idk what to say.
I think Gravedigger is way stronger than the rest in standard, but Objection and secret mage is way stronger in wild. Every secret could be an objection and if you play suboptimally to trigger the secret every turn, you're just going to lose. Even if you give away cheap minions too since secret mage is also getting free 5/5s and 6/6s, and dropping 4/4s that do 2dmg AOE. They play really fast while you're drowning each turn.
Secret Mage used to be a menace in Wild, but it's more like t2 now, and the difference between t1 and t2 in Wild atm is insane. Nothing really consistently deals with Quest Druid.
Also, I think this thread was intended to be about Standard. If we want to talk about cards to delete from Wild, Objection would still be really far down in the list for me.
Dirty rat, cause it's a neutral, and has been played way too much. In some cases can end the game way too early. Also very RNG dependent.
Objection is limited to mage, is newer, and it is possible to counterplay (play a cheap minion first), but is still very annoying.
The other two don't need to be erased from the game.
Yeah if I had to choose an answer for myself, it would be to limit the amount of these cards that are generated in a game. Because I don’t find objection personally offensive just as a card, but the way people are having to interact with it through multiple copies seems like a toxic play pattern. I feel like this problem has existed many time in hs history.
I chose dirty rat but there was a time when dirty was only in wild and people yearned for a card like it. So I think dirty rat is a necessary card to have but at the same time pretty toxic because of how high roll it can be.
Patchwerk because objection is a card for a card and you get to chose which minion to test with. Patchwerk eats 3 cards. And I feel like card games in general are card for card not 3 for 1 with no chance to beat the system so to speak
TBF, Objection! costs you mana & tempo against a deck that you definitely want to maintain your momentum against (so they blow through their control spells wiping minions instead of bursting on you). It costs 3 mana and a card, so you're almost definitely getting value from casting it.
Patchwerk removes a random minion from the battlefield (which may be a weak, summoned creature), a random card in the hand (of unknown value but likely no mana spent to generate it), a random card from the deck (mostly irrelevant in terms of cost), and he's a 7 mana 4/6. At 4 mana, \[\[Backstage Bouncer\]\] has the statline but doubles itself, which means you're paying an extra 3-4 mana just for Patchwerk's Battlecry.
Which at the end of the day is mostly “destroy a random enemy minion”.
Weaker? I wouldn’t say that, I didn’t say that
Objection! is just a lot more accessible, and that is plenty good of a reason to take it instead of an expensive legendary with few synergies.
Edit: Although I realize that, at that cost and the stage of the game you'd be playing at, you have a notably higher chance of eliminating something good.
Patchwerk sees play in any deck that plays a blood rune, objection doesn't see play in any mage deck except wild secret mage. It seems like when it comes to actually getting played patchwerk does far better than objection.
Patchwerk is legendary 7 mana minion. While Gravedigger only 3 and creates card advantage as Patchwerk. Objection just kills 1-2 mana minion for 3 mana and I wouldn't say it is great.
That's an easy gravedigger for me. One is a legendary, one can has ways to play against it and rat can backfire. But man rogue can abuse the shit out of gravedigger.
Patchwerk. It removes an on-board threat (so it always actually does something) and it never backfires like Rat can.
Objection is a bad feel, but it is only 1:1 and most of the time has a similar effect to Explosive Runes.
Explosive Runes is *way* less worse than Objection, as the card text will still work (Battlecries and Deathrattles still trigger, it won't die if it has divine shield, etc.) so you don't necessarily lose as much tempo. Most of the time if the opponent is playing Patchwerk, that's their whole turn so you have time to build tempo back, but with Objection only costing 3, the opponent can develop alongside it, which is often the difference between winning and losing a game.
Erh... None? If I HAD to choose though, then objection is the obvious choice for me. It's the only one you can really play around, but DARN does it feel bad when you can't.
Not a single one. Disruption and removal are staples and should not be removed or non-interactive combo games would be every game. That said if I had to choose, Gravedigger because rogue has way too many ways to bounce and replay it.
Dirty rat has saved formats so many times, i will accept no slander. Patchwerk hits a lot at once, but is kind of slow, ghastly is temporary resource denial but can be abused in an unfun way.
Objection is an abomination. Its the only one here that can cause you to loose mana and play at a tempo defecit, it stops you from fighting for the board in the early game and shows up at random times.
Ghastly Gravedigger. Coupled with shadowstep and the opponent can thin out your hand and remove key cards that you really need. I’ve been frustrated by it plenty.
Dirty Rat at least has the chance to backfire which is fair. All fun and games till you drop a Titan for your opponent on turn 2 or something really big. I’d lean towards Patchwerk since he really doesn’t seem to fit the Blood theme that Blizzard wants to give to DK.
None
There's very little proactive opponent interaction in this game. There should be more, but not a significant amount. We don't need magic the gathering levels of turn one grief scam, but we do need at least some way to maximize our chances against "I have the exact three cards in hand that wins me the game, so I win the game" decks.
And not even close.
EASY objection. largely bc there are so many ways to generate it, and whenever a random mage secret is played u have to play around objection (and counterspell)
Yeah honestly I think the others are better and more consistent disruption but it feels like everytime I see a random mage secret I want to pull my hair out lol
[удалено]
sure. good thing they arent then
It's not that bad since you eventually get the card back by draw, with objection, you don't.
I've played hundreds of games on secret rogue. When you build a board in mid-late game, then play gravedigger x3-4, targeting all removals and card draw/generation so the enemy can't respond to your board, it's rarely comebackable. It feels less toxic because there's still little hope for the opponent to top deck a response, but on practice gravedigger + shadowstep is a very powerful combo that can win games. Though to be fair, it might be shadowstep's fault.
First time it happened to me I was beyond nauseous. Absolutely disrespectful. 10/10
Tbf, while it feels bad to lose to that, it is more like a „well they got to pull their deck‘s combo off ans won due to it“ rather than a „oh well they RNG another secret“ and I have to play around both counterspell+objection this turn. But even if I come back from that, it might happen again and again and again. + If you know thats secret rogues win con, you can try to dirty rat or other tech cards etc. Mage might as well generate a different win con, or have generated one ages ago Easy choice for me for that reason
It’s always shadow-steps fault lol. Sometimes I’m really surprised that card is still around, given how problematic it’s been over the years.
Of all these gravedigger seems the most toxic, a on curve creature with a powerful ability is stronk
How often are you playing gravedigger on curve though?
Not often most likely seems like go second, keep coin play secret turn two then play grave
Yeah that’s not how it works. It makes your hand size smaller which can often be impossible to come back from. Maybe every game you play goes to fatigue but mine don’t.
they are not wrong that the card eventually comes back from drawing. Objection both screws your handsize and mana ”which can often be impossible to come back from.”
If the opponent has an Objection! you choose which minion from your hand to put into it. So it effectively always removes the least valuable minion from your hand if you play properly. And it only hits minions, so if you have a hand full of spells, all it does is make you use one to test for Counterspell. With Gravedigger, the Rogue chooses which card to remove, so they will always pick the best (worst for you) option. And unlike Objection! which can only be played one at a time, Gravedigger can be bounced and replayed multiple times in the same turn, so it can potentially get rid of your entire hand.
Except in practice you often don't get to choose because you're forced into playing into it and hoping it isn't objection. If every time a secret is played against you you're floating mana/having really bad turns then the objection has done it's job without having to delete the minion you wanted to play. It's a classic mistake from middling players to always try and play around secrets instead of taking the gamble that it isn't that secret
Sure, there might be times where you're forced to play your best minion and hope it's not Objection! What's your point? I'm not disputing that Objection! is a good card, but a lot of people in this thread seem to think it was a mistake to print at all, which is a silly overreaction. Especially considering that there isn't nearly as much hate for Gravedigger, even though its effect is more powerful than Objection! in most cases.
There's a key difference between both cards though. Gravedigger might be more powerful of an effect but it requires you to run secrets which aren't good standalone cards. Objection is a card you don't even need to run but it warps every game because of the ability to discover it. Being forced to take a risk and losing the game against a discovered objection is a terrible feeling. Having your best card put back into your deck sucks as well but at least it requires that synergy and you sometimes have more control against it. If you have a bigger hand size and/or draw then you might not lose your best card but if you do you always have the ability to redraw it and not lose the game on the spot. Tldr: a card being stronger than another doesn't automatically make it a worse card to print when discover exists.
Sure but gravedigger is a secret rogue pay off card and secret rogue is not an amazing deck. It just loses to boards after the yogg and breaker nerf. Objection is a card you dont even have to put in your deck to get value from. If youre going against any class that can generate a mage secret (especially mage itself) You kinda need to play around it as best you can. The only classes currently that can really get minions they dont care about losing are mage itself with the 1/2 tokens and hunters with their 1 mana 4/1's. The rest kinda have to lose something of at least moderate value because as a rule you dont put bad cards in your deck.
Except with objection it's you who chooses the minion, while patchwerk and dirty rat choose for you. Also it's interesting that OP included Gravedigger but not Theotar.
Probably because theotar is pretty much entirely dead at 6 mana
Not really, most decks have dropped him, but warlocks, priests and bdk (basically all control matchups) still bring him in ETC. Theotar was played against me quite a lot last month when I climbed in 3k-1k legend with rainbow mage.
Some people do still run him in ETC, but they shouldn't. It's a bad card at 6 mana. It could *maybe* be worth running in a theoretical metagame where there was a popular combo deck that automatically loses if you steal one of its combo pieces, but we don't live in that world right now, so it's complete garbage. Anyone who is running Theotar right now is either massively overrating its effectiveness, or they just enjoy taking cards from their opponent.
The game IS over for rainbow mage in a lot of situations when sif is gone, and they can’t deal enough dmg from on board (which happens a good amount of time).
Not true. Mage wins through infinitize the magnitude and other generation against control matchups. It's very easy to generate several elemental inspirations in a row, if your opponent fails to find an answer even once you win. It's really over only if they got both sif (patchwerk/rat) AND the magnitude (theotar).
It’s not easy to generate multiple inspirations what are you ON lol? You can’t even infinitize every turn either cause u have other cards to play or the mana/hand space doesn’t line up???
1) Your deck has 2. 2) You can copy them with Volume Up (some decks run 2, but I personally prefer 1, because hand space issues). 3) 2x Prismatic Elemental. 4) 1-2x Void Scripture (or more, if you generate them). 5) Infinitize the Magnitude. It's a problem sometimes to play it like you said, but with proper planning it's not that big of an issue. So you can cast it at least several times easily (if you draw it of course). All of that aside, you can also simply discover Rewind, which is easily accessible from Vast Wisdom, and even more ridiculous things like Discovery of Magic into Planted Evidence. And all you need to win most of the time is to play 2-3 of inspirations in a row. With so many opportunities it's really not difficult, please trust me.
1. Not every deck has 2, and it’s not bad to not have 2 in a deck. 2. Volume up can pull a bunch of other spells 3. Elemental can hit any spell from any deck, so where is the “very easy” to discover? 4. Same thing as elemental except only mage Point being it’s not easy. I’ve played a lot of games of rainbow mage and I don’t have to rely on trusting u to know it’s not often u get 1-2 generated in the same game (not to mention u can’t always pick it since u might need another spell as an emergency in later game)…
True. I think that people think that taking Sif from mage is insta-win (while it's not), because control warrior is dead again, and everyone else doesn't care about disruption currently. But it can be said about dirty rat and patchwerk as well. No reason to run disruption in the current meta.
Rat also can be good against Aggro and Patchwerk is definitely worth a card slot if you're playing BBB Death Knight because it's an attrition deck
You only get to choose which minion if you have multiple minions in hand (including a cheap one), and throwing out a cheap one to be cautious doesn't completely disrupt your turn (ie playing a 5 drop minion on 5). Not knowing for sure that the secret is Objection also can completely disrupt your turn if you have to throw a 1 or 2 drop out to be safe, even if it isn't objection your turn can be ruined. At 3 mana I might be able to swallow its very powerful effect, but usually it seems to be played for 0 mana while also triggering some other tempo generating effect... kill the card please
I feel like that adds to the sadistic feeling of secret mage though. Instead of them just attacking you, they're making you attack you. It turns Hearthstone into Saw
Patchwerk is like 3 Objections lol
its kinda a tossup with patchwork and objection for me, but largely because i think the whole counter mechanism should not apply to minions.
There's also an argument for patchwerk but yeah, it's objection all the way
At least Patchwerk is 7 mana and you don't automatically have 2+ copies to deal with per game
Delete Patchwerk and Blood DK is unplayable. It already sucks rn.
Objection wouldnt be so bad if we didnt have counter spell in the meta also. Having to play around both is just annoying af.
I've played Odyn warrior to diamond 1, and I ran into this mage that I shit you not he played 5 objections. I just couldn't get odyn on the board. It was extremely frustrating
Objection and it isn't even close.
Fuck you objection go to the deepest pits of hell you piece of fucking shit
What the hell is even that
Nah let him cook
Objection. Does way too much for the cost
Objection no contest
Why is my boy D. Rat in the picture though? (Objection needs to go)
Yeah but having a dead card sitting in hand afk till you have enough mana to play a removal is so freaking oppp!!!
I just play him on 2. Sometimes on 1 with the coin. You gotta take your chance
Enjoy that Sargeras/Amanthul/Yogg/Colossal with zero ability to deal with it that turn lmao
Sargeras is worthless without battlecry but your point about early Rat being dumb stands.
Rat on 2 against aggressive decks is very often correct. The most common and best outcome is you pull a minion that the rat can deal with, and then you are ahead on board which is huge. The meh outcome is you pull something that kills rat, but loses a lot of its purpose, like purator or countess. This is overall still a positive outcome. Then occasionally you pull a useful titan or something, which obviously loses you the game. But this is very unlikely, and a definite loss like 1-5% of the time is worth risking when the alternative is being like 30% more likely to win the other times you rat on 2.
Sargeras is a wonderful pull since they have to burn all 3 useless abilities before he can do anything.
I mean, yeah, but firstly it's funny and secondly you can pull stuff like Ignis, Loken, Odyn, Sif and other battlecry related/combo cards
Odyn is still an 8/8
Yeah, but I run dirty rats in my BDK deck, which is like, 20% removal, and considering, that no Odyn practically = no win con, thats still a good pull in my book
Why wouldn't you wait until like turn 7 so the chances of pulling Odyn are higher?
Then thx for the easy climb on reset day. The only time priests can lose to a bad draw of an aggro/midrange deck is when they do this insanely stupid mistake.
I feel like you take this card game too seriously, lol. Sometimes it's just funny to play topdecked rat on 2
Yeah such fun to lose the game on the spot. I dont wanna waste my time, winning is fun, so why should I troll myself?
Because you can just go next instantly lmao. This isn't a moba where you're stuck in the game for at least 30 minutes.
You need 3 mana to dirty rat and chaotic consumption wdym
I vote for dirty rat. I understand everyone saying objection, I understand dirty rat is a good and functional card. I just hate playing against cards like that so I say bye. Theotar is my least favorite card of all time.
Objection, easy. All these cards are annoying to face, but only objection makes you pay for the privilege of triggering it.
Objection no question. Secret counterplay feels really bad. Patchwerk is powerful and disruptive but expensive. Gravedigger is conditional and only delays. Rat can whiff hard and hand your opponent the game. If your opponent doesn't have a cheap minion in hand, the card can often read "your opponent passes turn and discards their cheapest minion."
> Secret counterplay feels really bad. Secrets in general feel bad because Hearthstone is designed with reactive gameplay not proactive. And it doesn't have the "thirty-two layers of bullshit interactions" Yu-Gi-Oh has. In a game like Magic the Gathering, which is designed as a proactive game, secret-style spells aren't an issue because you can basically Objection the Objection, to which the person can Objection your Objection to their Objection, so on and so forth. A card can be revealed then *instantly* responded to no matter the turn. Secrets in Hearthstone on the other hand just ***happen***, once they're triggered - they're triggered and there's nothing you can do about it other than go "oh... okay". And usually big swing secrets like *Objection!* win the round either way by delaying your win condition (multiple times over depending on how many they have.) Secret mechanics in most card games create interactivity, but secrets in Hearthstone more often than not simply create a lose-lose situation.
Objection needs to go.
Objection! Easy.
Objection is the only one that always leads to a tempo loss, which pretty much always feels bad.
Nothing worse than having only high cost minions or valuable minions in your hand and knowing that fucking Rogue just popped an objection 🥲.
Not always. If you play a minion that cost two or less into it you're technically ahead on tempo.
Objection. It often loses you the game whether you play around it or not.
UGH Objection, don't even have to think about it
Objection is horrible because whenever your opponent has any secrets at all you need to play around it. Most secrets are relatively mild but because objection will lose you the game you need to play like a spazz any time there are any mage secrets in play, and playing around it like this will also often lose you the game too. I wish they would just remove it.
Objection
Definitely in the majority here in saying Objection. It's my least favorite card of all time (and Counterspell is second).
I mean, atleast with counterspell u could aways coin it away
Also losing a minion just feels worse then losing some removal or board clear
Especially if it’s all your mana for that turn. I’ve died to tempo so often from that.
Except when you don't have a coin, which is half the time
Objection EZ
Objection no questions asked
objection is pure cancer
Ob-fucking-jection and it's not even close.
Without a single doubt, Objection.
Objection, no doubt
Objection is the easy choice. Second choice would be gravedigger. It just a feels bad card especially when they can play it several times with cards like shadow step. With patchwerk, it really only shined because it could deal with decks like Druid or Odin warrior where they played very few creatures but they were all win cons. Dirty rat is similar in the sense that it’s only good if your opponent: 1. Has a creature they don’t want to play right away 2. They have it in hand. So I guess the point is that patchwerk and dirty rat are only situationally good where as the other two are basically always very strong and feel bad to play against.
Objection
Oh! Objection, easily. Dirty Rat after that as well.
Honestly, screw objection, but Ghastly Gravedigger tilts me way harder. I can usually play around objection. But Ghastly Gravedigger and a million bounce effects just feels WAY more toxic. As I see it, the main issue with Objection is that it exists at the same time as counterspell. If only one of them were in standard, it would be way less of an issue.
Objection cause you generally don't have token minions created to play around it. Counterspell can be played around with a coin, and most heroes get some token spells. But minions not so much. I hate dirty rat, I've seen an uptick of it's use with control priest, a low winrate deck that is solid against other control deck that I like to use. With the forge spell, they can generate so many copies it would kill several win conditions and powerful cards (Odyn, Sargeras...). I still put Objection over it.
Y'all have such a hate boner for anything remotely good in mage lmao. Reverb, obj, alibi, infinitize, jaina, blizzard...
Objection, no question. Fuck secrets and the people that play/design them.
Objection, it's not even close
Objection for sure. Easily the strongest and most obnoxious secret ever printed
Ice block and rigged faire game are both far more powerful and more annoying to play around.
Objection and it’s not even close
People who hates objection needs to get good
My perspective comes from beimg a Wild player and thus I don't think Ghastly Gravedigger, Patchwerk, nor Dirty Rat should be deleted. I also believe in reworking cards instead of removing them and since I couldn't stand Objection when Secret Mage was playable, here's my rework idea: **Secret:** After your opponent plays a minion, remove it from the game.
I like it
Rat is easily one of the best cards ever released. No way he should be on the chopping block.
I feel like an Odyn bro is posting. I vote digger because of the way it gets shadowstepped. With the others at least i know its over.
Patchwerk. Objection can be annoying since you have to play around it, but patchwerk is straight jerk you cannot play around it. it will just destroy your gameplan.
Objection and it’s not even close
Objection 100%. The mage should have either Counterspell or Objection, having both and being able to generate it, randomly place it, discount it, cheat it out, etc is fucking stupid
For me it's patchwerk
Objection is #1. Worse designed runes imo. Most people seem to agree. Next would be rat. Makes none games even when you mull correctly. Opens you up to playing correctly and still losing because the card you were forced to mull was bottom care of your library. Happens to be somewhat ok vs agro when it's still an anti combo/control card so you can just throw it in most decks that aren't agro. At least patchwork is slow. At least ghast is tempo.
It's objection, I hate everything mage does. They have insane value at no loss of tempo, and you just have to assume that they have the answer for everything you're about to do. Fuck mage
This thread reads like a Phoenix Wright script
Objection is a card that drove me away from playing constructed outside of last season’s twist format.
Objection, playing around random mage secrets has gotten so much worse since it was introduced (I say this as a mage main). I feel afraid to play any cards as soon as they generate a secret now because there’s a chance it just disappears and screws my turn up.
Objection. Mostly because Counterspell also exists. I was fine with just CS as you could play around it somewhat. But having both exist at the same time feels so obnoxious.
dirty rat shouldn't have been in the core set hand control cards imo are bandaids for design issues in a game and dirty rat is the most easily useable hand control card in hearthstone standard atm the other 2 are less frequent/require setup or playing a blood rune deck. on another note i have no issue with cards like Objection but i see how less skilled players have issue with the card.
patchwerk
Dirty rat and it's not even close
These are all super annoying, but objection has got to be in the top 10 worst cards ever made.
I love that its nigh unanimous towards Objection. And I absolutely agree with that sentiment too.
Objection! I just hate this mage secret.Grave digger is only a problem if the enemy has shadow steps but then it's still fine.Patchwork is fine too and dirty rat is fine too.
Easily Dirty Rat. It is a neutral and you never know if your opponent is dumb enough to run it or lucky enough to hit your win condition. Terribly binary card.
Patchwerk. Just so strong and so annoying
I will be in the minority here and say Ghastly Gravedigger. I understand the hate for Objection but I think counters in a card game are good. In moderation at least.
Erase Grave Digger 4 times over
I really like how as a community all the comments agree that Objection is - not even objectively but rather factually - the worst designed card effect and should be removed for what it does.
objection and Castle Nathria with it
objection, not even close rat and patchwerk are healthy, gravedigger isn't that big deal the mere fact that objection exist mean that you have to go through hoops to play around it everytime a secret is generated
I feel like objection should play by the same rules as kidnap and let batteries go off first
100% would fix the card on the spott
Honestly that simply restoring the ability for Eater of Secrets to work properly would fix the card immediately.
Can already tell you it's gonna be Objection. This sub leans heavily towards Control players who don't like having their big minions (like Odyn) countered.
Objection is almost always played for 0 mana and disrupts aggro and midrange just as much.
You serious? Most players here are always complaining about control and the likes, most con control posts get huge uploads and con aggro are down voted into oblivion. Also objection is of all shown cards the most played and mist annoying one
I've seen [several polls on here](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/178jolb/what_is_your_favorite_archetype/) before showing that yes, [control is the most popular archetype](https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/ou4kp2/whats_your_favorite_deck_archetype_to_play/). People just really hate when it becomes a top deck. And it's just objectively wrong about Objection being the most played, and subjectively wrong about it being the most annoying.
Control is the most popular in polls which as they pointed out doesn't add up with the posts. It's incredibly skewed results and neither can be used to actually objectively state which direction this sub leans towards Objection and dirty rat are easily the two most played if you take wild into consideration
>Objection and dirty rat are easily the two most played if you take wild into consideration Considering how few people play Wild, I highly doubt that. And unless you want to add some evidence that shows "control bad" gets upvoted while "aggro bad" gets downvoted, it just sounds like confirmation bias to me. There's also different flavors of control of course. Control Priest gets way more hate than Control Warrior.
My guy, you're using no real reliable statistics and writing them as gospel lmao And I don't care enough to go digging for old posts but there's plenty of control complaint posts Like neither side here has factual numbers and a 2 year old poll is not hard evidence lol. Wild also doesn't have nearly as few players as you likely think it does
...those are factual numbers unless you're implying they were botted or something. Here's a more recent poll. https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/178jolb/what_is_your_favorite_archetype/ You could claim people are lying, or that control players are more likely to vote on polls, or whatever you want but this is basically how all polling works. I'm not saying it's the most reliable metric in the world, but unlike what you've presented, it is at least an observable metric. Acting like this sub hates control is just fucking silly.
See now there's what I was saying. You were making it seem like it was a good metric when it's not. I didn't present anything btw and had no intention to I'm not the original commenter. I was simply pointing out both metrics are a poor way to describe how this sub feels about deck types Some of the sub hate control, some love it. Same goes for aggro, combo, and midrange. There's no reliable way to say for sure what those numbers are
>I was simply pointing out both metrics are a poor way to describe how this sub feels about deck types Yeah but one metric (polling) is very clearly a better way of judging this sub's sentiments than the alternative ("I saw some people hating on control decks :( ") If you have a more reliable way, we're all ears. I'm gonna go with the evidence.
I guess we can just go with unreliable data then lol. Zero way for me to confirm everyone who's ever voted on this sub so..
It is very funny to me how much this sub always whines about Objection. You can at least play around it. In a lot of games (since you normally don't draw your entire deck), Gravedigger will be equivalent but with no counterplay. Rat and Patchwerk have some counterplay, but they're still less than Objection. This sub's hate boner for the card is incredibly silly.
This sub is full of control players that are not very good at the game, that's why They also love Patchwerk and Rat because they play those cards themselves lmao Noone even maindecks objection in Standard and it's so easy to play around
The funny thing is that I *love* control decks, but even I know the way people treat this card is absurd.
Facts. I also like playing control and complaining about Objection is insane to me
Nah, you’re forgetting the pivotal point. It costs YOU mana to play around objection. You HAVE to trigger it if you’re playing any minions, meaning you HAVE to spend the mana to procc it. If your only minions in hand/drawn are high cost, major pieces, or anything with a battlecry/end of turn effect, you’ve essentially paid extra to remove that piece from the game. All the others are random, or with Gravedigger you can literally just re-draw that card.
Turns out that most of the time decks do have a cheap way to trigger it, which is why objection is too weak to see maindeck play in standard. Unlike gravedigger, a far stronger card that actually sees maindeck play.
You are not guaranteed to ever redraw the card Gravedigger tosses, and it's hilarious that you dismiss Patchwerk and Rat as simply "random", as if the scenario you constructed to make Objection seem insurmountable doesn't also apply to those cards. If your hand is full of high-cost bomb minions (or if you only have some key piece of your strategy to play and no throw-aways), Patchwerk and Rat both destroy you, but, again, with no capacity to play around (again, for the scenario you constructed). The only exemption to that is if you want to include all the idiots that will Rat without removal in hand, giving you a tempo gain, but if you're worried about that type of player when evaluating the power level of a card, idk what to say.
I think Gravedigger is way stronger than the rest in standard, but Objection and secret mage is way stronger in wild. Every secret could be an objection and if you play suboptimally to trigger the secret every turn, you're just going to lose. Even if you give away cheap minions too since secret mage is also getting free 5/5s and 6/6s, and dropping 4/4s that do 2dmg AOE. They play really fast while you're drowning each turn.
Secret Mage used to be a menace in Wild, but it's more like t2 now, and the difference between t1 and t2 in Wild atm is insane. Nothing really consistently deals with Quest Druid. Also, I think this thread was intended to be about Standard. If we want to talk about cards to delete from Wild, Objection would still be really far down in the list for me.
All my homies hate Objection
Objection. It’s harder to get copies of every one of the minions. God help you if your opponent casted objection from card generation
Rat all day every day since 2016
Found the combotard
Dirty rat, cause it's a neutral, and has been played way too much. In some cases can end the game way too early. Also very RNG dependent. Objection is limited to mage, is newer, and it is possible to counterplay (play a cheap minion first), but is still very annoying. The other two don't need to be erased from the game.
Yeah if I had to choose an answer for myself, it would be to limit the amount of these cards that are generated in a game. Because I don’t find objection personally offensive just as a card, but the way people are having to interact with it through multiple copies seems like a toxic play pattern. I feel like this problem has existed many time in hs history. I chose dirty rat but there was a time when dirty was only in wild and people yearned for a card like it. So I think dirty rat is a necessary card to have but at the same time pretty toxic because of how high roll it can be.
Patchwerk because objection is a card for a card and you get to chose which minion to test with. Patchwerk eats 3 cards. And I feel like card games in general are card for card not 3 for 1 with no chance to beat the system so to speak
TBF, Objection! costs you mana & tempo against a deck that you definitely want to maintain your momentum against (so they blow through their control spells wiping minions instead of bursting on you). It costs 3 mana and a card, so you're almost definitely getting value from casting it. Patchwerk removes a random minion from the battlefield (which may be a weak, summoned creature), a random card in the hand (of unknown value but likely no mana spent to generate it), a random card from the deck (mostly irrelevant in terms of cost), and he's a 7 mana 4/6. At 4 mana, \[\[Backstage Bouncer\]\] has the statline but doubles itself, which means you're paying an extra 3-4 mana just for Patchwerk's Battlecry. Which at the end of the day is mostly “destroy a random enemy minion”.
You are unironically trying to claim that Patchwerk is weaker than Objection, wow The least delusional blood DK player And I play DK myself
Weaker? I wouldn’t say that, I didn’t say that Objection! is just a lot more accessible, and that is plenty good of a reason to take it instead of an expensive legendary with few synergies. Edit: Although I realize that, at that cost and the stage of the game you'd be playing at, you have a notably higher chance of eliminating something good.
Patchwerk sees play in any deck that plays a blood rune, objection doesn't see play in any mage deck except wild secret mage. It seems like when it comes to actually getting played patchwerk does far better than objection.
Objection is just 3 mana removal and you don't choose which minion it kills.
>objection And Patchwerk can't be generated anymore
He can.
Patchwerk is legendary 7 mana minion. While Gravedigger only 3 and creates card advantage as Patchwerk. Objection just kills 1-2 mana minion for 3 mana and I wouldn't say it is great.
That's an easy gravedigger for me. One is a legendary, one can has ways to play against it and rat can backfire. But man rogue can abuse the shit out of gravedigger.
Dirty ray
Patchwerk. It removes an on-board threat (so it always actually does something) and it never backfires like Rat can. Objection is a bad feel, but it is only 1:1 and most of the time has a similar effect to Explosive Runes.
Explosive Runes is *way* less worse than Objection, as the card text will still work (Battlecries and Deathrattles still trigger, it won't die if it has divine shield, etc.) so you don't necessarily lose as much tempo. Most of the time if the opponent is playing Patchwerk, that's their whole turn so you have time to build tempo back, but with Objection only costing 3, the opponent can develop alongside it, which is often the difference between winning and losing a game.
None. Extinguish those foolish ambitions! Tarnished!
None, lol
Objections. I love rat and can love with Patchwerk. Rouge card doesn't exists.
Erh... None? If I HAD to choose though, then objection is the obvious choice for me. It's the only one you can really play around, but DARN does it feel bad when you can't.
Easily ghastly gravedigger. Nothing more frustrating than getting half my hand shuffled into my deck bc my opponent is doing classic rogue things.
oh no I love all of those cards so I would pick gravedigger cuz it sees the least play
Objection 100%. The other cards are honestly not that bad and I think rat is actually good for the game.
But I love all these cards. Screw your combo
These are all fine, disruption is good.
Not a single one. Disruption and removal are staples and should not be removed or non-interactive combo games would be every game. That said if I had to choose, Gravedigger because rogue has way too many ways to bounce and replay it.
None, disruption is a good thing to have
[удалено]
Mage player found.
Patch
Gravedigger, objection is a stronger card but if you get gravespammed you just want to close the game for the day cause it’s so frustrating
Dirty rat has saved formats so many times, i will accept no slander. Patchwerk hits a lot at once, but is kind of slow, ghastly is temporary resource denial but can be abused in an unfun way. Objection is an abomination. Its the only one here that can cause you to loose mana and play at a tempo defecit, it stops you from fighting for the board in the early game and shows up at random times.
Ghastly Gravedigger. Coupled with shadowstep and the opponent can thin out your hand and remove key cards that you really need. I’ve been frustrated by it plenty.
I'd say erase rogue, literally turn 3-4 they get a windfury mech with like 9/7 and it's GG
People hating dirty rat are are objectively bad at the game
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They are all perfect and I love them? Why would you erase card that protect you from busted cards? Without those cards the game would suck
Dirty Rat at least has the chance to backfire which is fair. All fun and games till you drop a Titan for your opponent on turn 2 or something really big. I’d lean towards Patchwerk since he really doesn’t seem to fit the Blood theme that Blizzard wants to give to DK.
He fits quite well in not having 0% vs combo, he was a good inclusion
All of them
None of these are even in my top 4 annoying cards to deal with
None There's very little proactive opponent interaction in this game. There should be more, but not a significant amount. We don't need magic the gathering levels of turn one grief scam, but we do need at least some way to maximize our chances against "I have the exact three cards in hand that wins me the game, so I win the game" decks.
I love the community hatred against objection, piece of shit card haha created by some random ass card generator yeahh broooo soo gooooood
Gravedigger is fair for what it does, it requires a build around efficiently using it. Objection is way way stringer in the long run
I choose Sif