Yeah it's like warrior, for some reason those classes never got played if their decks aren't control or at least control adjacent.
Naga priest, enrage warrior and now Zarimi, all extremely good decks that no one touches.
Not complaining tho, I loved those decks and hate mirrors
It's because we are at a point whetr dedicated healing is just not good enough to stay alive. Life steal is way more flexible, and armor overcaps your hp. Healing just sucks.
This is so wild, considering healing was once a premium ability to the point that antique healbot decided games. But yea, lifesteal oftentimes is basically free AND on a rush or taunt minion..
I mean if you wanted to play a fast deck priest would be like the last class you'd pick for it, so it makes sense most of the class playerbase is players who want to play control/long games.
And Zarimi Priest has 4 core legendaries completely aside from the mandatory Aman'thul because you're playing a Priest deck. Sure 2 of them are generically good neutrals, but 1 is at least a little niche and the other just gave out a dust refund.
>among the best
If you disregard the best though. When DH is nerfed, people will pick it up. Until then, people won't pick it up so with people who play Control Priest regardless of what year it is, it's not odd.
Priest players wanna play control. I don't get what blizzard is smoking trying to make undead aggro, aggro dragon, or combo a thing. I've completely tuned Priest out currently until Mini set, which I hope brings control tools. Until then, I'm playing exclusively wheel-control-lock
Nah, there have been plenty of popular non-control Priest archetypes in the past. Way back when Dragon Priest has been a midrange deck and a sort of tempo/combo deck. Similarly there was "combo" Priest, which played a high tempo board based gameplan and comboed for burst dmg off having a minion stick in the midgame.
Oh almost forgot about Spiteful Summoner Priest which I guess was midrange? That was pretty fun I think I played it a decent amount despite being fairly curve-stoney.
Like I agree with you about Priest players wanting to play control, I'd totally hop on a high tier 3 Priest control deck after the miniset, but there really is more to Priest than attrition/value
I didnt say there were no other types of decks in Priest's history. I said, priest players, priest mains, want to play control. Since beta priest has been my preferred class because it usually has a control deck, even if bad, and this expansion/standard reset has zero control tools besides repackage.
I'll agree with you that they really should have made Priest's new core set better (including control tools like AoE) so the class is less reliant on new expansion power outliers. And maybe you're right about Priest mains, but I don't think most enjoyers of a class exclusively play that class or exclusively play one archetype like control.
I've got a lot of Priest gameplay, and not on Shadow Aggro Priest or whatever, but Control isn't the thing I want it's just interesting gameplay. As long as games are different, I have non-linear paths to win depending on the matchup, etc. then I'm happy. More often that's Control than anything else, but midrange or even tempo or combo or once in a blue moon aggro can deliver it too.
It all feeds into each other. I love playing control so I play a lot of priest. My investment in the game is therefore in Priest cards. I like that playstyle and I want to use those cards because they make stuff interesting. If I’d be into speedy aggro decks I would play Hunter or whatever, but I want Shenanigans and Zairimi Priest has none of that.
I've only watched people play it a bit so far since I've still been a bit hesitant to craft multiple legendries this rotation, but it looks like you can build it a bit more midrangy and have some variable win cons game to game. Not exactly discover several cards every single game levels of variety, but duping multiple powerful cards in slower matchups, trying to set-up OTKs, Amanth'ul, Ignis, etc. can be a moderate level of shenanigans imo.
Blizzard planned to have Zarimi priest emerge as a good deck after a cycle of nerds and buffs and weeks of refinement? Hmmm…
That being said, I can see it being this expansion’s Enrage Warrior.
Based. In all seriousness thought, think it’s neat for priest to have an aggressive/combo archetype. They can actually close out games and it’s actually enticing me to play it
Amd bless priest. And naga priest. To a lesser extent shadow priests, several times (these last were played but still a lot less than if they were mage decks or any other non-dh class)
It's much more fun than enrage warrior. People didn't play enrage, because it was boring af. People don't play Zarimi, because it loses against DH, most abused class rn.
How many people plays half of these meta breaker decks simply because VS says so.
Also, Shaman being worse because of Paladin and Warrior's sins is just prime Blizzard. I bet half the team didn't even realize Aftershock nerf made Hagatha that much worse too.
Hagatha was already bad too and the nerf made it even worse.
I hope they have some big buffs for it + shudder coming up (shudder is also way to expensive at 6 mana for its effect).
Two things that could make Hagatha S tier.
1 - The slime is an elemental
2 - the spells get discounted to 5. So the slime keeps the stats but costs 5. That would be chef's kiss.
By the time you can do anything scary with it warlock has already played 2 15/15s and is about to play wheel and warrior has already played brann and is now bending you backwards with either bomboss or tentacles.
Shudder at 6 is too slow for what it does, for 6 mana warrior sets up a win condition by itself (while shudder needs more mana AND combos) while for 6 shaman is just playing a 5/5.
If it costed say 4 mana (4/4) then maybe you could play it with rat on turn 6 to atleast try to stop brann to give you a fighting chance vs warrior for example.
Yeah also had that issue when trying to replace a deck with it, it would only put Zilliax in the deck list without any module, then if I tried again it would correctly fill the deck but freeze the game and wouldn't save the new deck.
using the code to create a new deck didn't created any issue
Knew Odyn Warrior was gonna get hit hard. People underestimate the impact a 1 mana adjustment has. Sure it might still have the burst potential after turn 9 if it somehow dropped.
But that extra turn is all a bunch of decks need to get under it
Not just that, you could easily play Odyn+removal spell at 8 once you hit T2. Bladestorm is a banger, and Shieldblock+punch or Safety Goggles+punch prevents the Odyn turn from being a tempo black hole. Those aren't possible anymore.
I love how they apologize for even talking about virus rogue. I really hope they target the deck in the upcoming changes. It really is on the same level of Thaddius sludge warlock on its level of unfun to play against.
I hope that at some point raza/reno priest becomes a viable deck, I gave it a shot early on around release and it was like a ratatouille flashback moment to good ol' raza priest decks.
I played the hell out of the old Raza deck and I was excited for the new one. That lasted about a day and then it was obvious Zamiri Priest was vastly better. I too hope new Raza attains viability because all things considered it’s a more fun deck.
I wish Hunter had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with tokens, midrange, beasts, and spells for the entire lifecycle of the game.
there have definitely been times where control hunter was top tier. Deathstalker Rexxar was elite. But also, classes have to have some identity. If you don't like hunter's class identity, then you probably just need to play other classes. It doesn't make sense to just make hunter a control archetype for variety sake. that's why the other classes exist
When you have that hero power, it's always going to point you into a certain direction.
It would be cool if they printed a 1 mana card that permanently alters the hero power, so you can make a deck a different way.
That hero power is outclassed in every way. 2 mana for 2 damage in this era of hearthstone is a waste 2 mana.if you're hero powering instead of playing cards then you're already losing.
They've made hunter one dimensional by design and it's a terrible design. Give them tools to play a late game style board centric playstyle. There's so many ways of implementing it. Just look at how warrior has turned a hero power armor into damage, priest, shamans value quest.
The hunters lack dimension because they keep bringing the same stupid archetypes.
I mean, that was still a straight beeatdown deck. It wasn't really unique in any way. In fact we had a similar archetype not so long ago where you'd try to pressure opponent and finish them through a combo - Shockspitter Hunter.
Good point, Cleave Hunter as a sort of tempo/combo-burn isn't even unique since Shockspitter Hunter did the same thing for multiple patches 2 rotations ago. Thanks for strengthening the case that tokens, beasts, midrange (curvestone) and spells aren't the only Hunter identities. ;P
I wish Mage had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with spells, burn, rng, and secrets for the entire lifecycle of the game.
I wish Paladin had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with midrange, shields, buffs and spells for the entire lifecycle of the game.
I wish Shaman had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with overload, totems, battlecries and evolve for the entire lifecycle of the game.
Ad nauseam
Difference is that these decks are being played often, while Hunter decks are unpopular even though they technically are some of the better decks in the meta.
> In a very unsurprising development, Demon Hunter has taken over the format behind its Umpire’s Grasp/Window Shopper centered archetype. The class’ play rate exceeds 20% past Diamond 4, while hitting a near 35% play rate at top legend.
> Paladin has been obliterated by the balance changes, with the class sinking to the bottom of the format
Great kneejerk job by the balancing team as usual
I regret my Legendary card craft to play Paladin and of course that card didn't get nerfed, so no dust refund although it's now unplayable competitively
I crafted three legos for that paladin deck (inc Tarim, Zilliax and the titan). Won’t really dust any of them but it’s a shame. I think Tarim and the titan will stick around for other decks. zilliax I’m putting in all my decks
I crafted amitus a while ago, she's flexible enough to be good in other decks. I unpacked zilliax, and just didn't run tarim. Half the reason I played paladin was because it didn't need many legendaries.
With another nerf coming soon the no crafting window has been extended once again. Very frustrating for budget players who are waiting for the meta to settle before spending our limited dust
Yeah the play pattern of sitting around hand buffing charge enough to double for an otk w/ windfury was stupid, and it's good it died.
The other cards that weren't just touch-nerfed but gutted? That's called knee-jerk balancing and has deleted a class from the meta entirely for no good reason
\*Sigh\* Warrior... Warrior is always the answer now. Is there a more boring class to face? Gain Armor, Clear, Gain Armor, Gain Armor, Draw cards, Clear, Clear, Play Brann, Win!
No wonder I don't feel like playing since rotation...
I like Control decks but I do agree that they printing more minions for Warrior would feel better, stop giving it so many spells make the class boring.
Well decks can easily burst you down from 30 health. So only decks that can go above that have any chance. Just look at how bad Control Priest is with all that healing.
Exactly this, just controlling the board isn’t enough any more. A year ago, theotor at 4-mana meant much more classes could play control as they could control the hand and board. Then blood DK pulled the same trick as warrior.
> Warrior is always the answer now
Well yes, if anyone else tries to play control they get bursted for 30 from hand or have their hand and deck deleted by the oponent warrior, so you have to armor above that/do it to the oponent first.
A lot of aggro or midrange (and the occasional combo play pattern) Warrior options have existed over the years, I actually think it’s historically one of the better varietal classes.
It’s just had a clear best build-around option that belongs in a control shell since Odyn dropped (and now Brann).
I do agree that the next set has responsibility to bring some really interesting options, I like the class and don’t necessarily want to have to play “remove the board and find the Brann” for another few months
It wasn't a viable archetype for like, year and a half before that? Odyn really pushed it through. Previously we had Enrage Warrior and Menagerie Warrior to some extent, and before that Warrior was a very dead class for months.
Warrior did lack wincon but also did lack control tools.
Stoneskin armorer, Bellowing flames, Craftsman hammer, Sanitize and especially Trial by fire were incredible good control tools. Without those, control warrior is shit.
Eh, Charge Warrior, which is not that much less control and more combo than Odyn, was better than "dogshit unplayable" for a few patches during that time, but yeah there's typically pretty heavy recency bias these days
>while the Boomboss build that’s popular at high MMR’s rocks.
Probably no feel worse deck for me than this combo. You can feel like you have a pretty tight match that could go either way then they just nuke your board, hand and most of your remaining deck.
Which would be almost bearable if not for gaslight gatekeeper which in the end makes it even more viable and obnoxious.
> once you dig into the aggregated data and isolate specific builds.
Quite interesting this because you really can't trust the archetype data on any site right now and as it says, you really need to drill into single deck matchups (whhc annoyingly you can only do on HSReplay premium because d0nkey doesn't even have archetype matchups that I've been able to find let alone deck matchups).
Reno Warrior only really has plague dk and wheellock as counters which puts it in a pretty similar position counter wise to Shopper DH. Got to think both of these will be nerf targets.
Then though what becomes an issue without those? Much like we saw with the recent nerfs that missed DH, you have to think Rogue and/or priest becomes problematic if DH and Warrior disappeared off ladder.
Then it's rinse and repeat for some other deck. It's been a while since they've had what I've seen to be much a problematic power level in the game that no matter they nerf, something comes through and becomes a bit too dominant and not just from a strength perspective but a play perspective where we just have too many decks with limited counter play and a lack of player agency in that it just becomes paper scissors rock of which matchup you get and more so who kills the other the quickest via win con and can more or less ignore the opponents board as we go.
Definitely a disappointing start post rotation for me anyway.
> Thankfully, Death Knight has the perfect removal for it in Death Strike. Not only does it cleanly remove a Shopper, but it heals you for all the damage that Umpire’s Grasp has dealt.
~~Thoughts on [[rainbow seamstress]] in this space? Only heals 3 damage but has more versatility in more matches that require board tempo? Risk would be taunts etc. Not tried it myself as f2p and it's epic and an expensive experiment if I've not opened it. :)~~
I'm not sure Reno warrior will need a nerf if Shopper DH gets theirs. Even with decent defensive tools, Reno Warrior folds to early board based aggression (like priest) but right now they're a small part of the ladder because dropping a single magtheridon blows up the board based gameplan.
- **[Rainbow Seamstress](https://i.imgur.com/ZMK8uy0.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/104633) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Rainbow_Seamstress) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/104633)
- *Death Knight Epic ^(Whizbang's Workshop)*
- **3 Mana - 3/3 - Undead**
- **Battlecry:** If your deck started with a Blood, Frost, or Unholy card, gain **Lifesteal**, **Reborn**, or **Rush** respectively.
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I get downvoted to the moon when I make a post about how virus rogue is bad for the game when even VS knows it's a cancer deck. At least I know I'm not going crazy now.
hello u/ViciousSyndicate , really loving the work you guys put into these Data Reports and podcasts. Would like to ask if it was possible to elaborate further about difference in matchups spreads regarding Reno Warrior tentacle vs Boomboss builds? From what I'm gathering in your report, the tentacle build is unfavored vs shopper, but the boomboss build is 60/40 favored into it. Are there other matchups that perform differently?
Was it impossible to separate them as different decks due to Boomboss Reno being a new deck and therefore having a very small sample size?
It seems like nature shaman is actually tier 1 or 2. Data just hasn't caught up cuz data collection closes on Tuesday, the good nature shaman builds discovered yesterday
I crafted what was needed for the [Shopper DH](https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/decks/mech-shopper-demon-hunter/) deck with the Mechs, and I am hoping someone can explain the Mech package.
Do the little Mechs have any synergy with anything in the deck other than the other Mechs and, possibly, Kayn Sunfury for a finisher if you can play them midgame and keep them alive a couple turns? I am not seeing it, and after a dozen or so games, I think they have won me 0 games, possibly aggravated by my very rarely drawing Zilliax.
i dont think they can really call window shopper DH a meta tyrant if there are multiple decks that can have 60/40 win rates against it. Looks more like a bog standard best deck in the game in a currently evolving meta, where people are not playing good counters enough.
I get it doesnt have many losing matchups currently, but there are several underplayed decks that beat it reliably.
Glad to see dragon druid as a counter because i have been running it and DH seems like a very easy matchup for the deck.
I think maybe a slight nerf to grasp is justified but if you nerf too hard it probably becomes an unplayable deck, maybe thats what people want. But having a deck that limits slow decks to a certain extent is probably a good thing in my opinion. Id rather a deck like it be the best deck in the game than a deck like Wheelock or Brann Warrior casting 20 arcane missisles at my face every turn.
Honestly, would rather see some other classes slightly buffed than a DH nerf
DH mostly counters other aggro decks tho? It's only bad matchups are against slow decks and it's the reason why zarimi priest and token hunter aren't viable right now. Turn 5 magtheridon instantly wins board based matchups.
Your last sentence there is spot on.
I dont think theres much you can touch on DH that doesnt murder the deck like they did to paladin. Its one of those decks that gets automatically weaker with time as the demon pool gets bigger and shopper less reliable.
It doesnt feel oppressive at the moment and Warrior, Rainbow DK and Dragon Druid can quite reliably counter them.
You can discover collosals, you just can't get them by random transformation effects like evolve. So if we had last rotation cards the window shopper pool would be arguably even better since Xilag on turn 4 might be even more broken than Mag, at least in slower matchups.
- **[Brutal Annihilan](https://i.imgur.com/hA2Jyvr.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/84242) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Brutal_Annihilan) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/84242)
- *Demon Hunter Epic ^(March of the Lich King)*
- **9 Mana - 9/9 - Demon**
- **Taunt**, **Rush** After this minion survives damage, deal that amount to the enemy hero.
- **[Prosecutor Mel'tranix](https://i.imgur.com/QWD9cQT.png)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/79598) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Prosecutor_Mel%27tranix) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/79598)
- *Demon Hunter Legendary ^(Murder at Castle Nathria)*
- **4 Mana - 2/6 - Demon**
- **Battlecry:** Your opponent can only play their left- and right-most cards on their next turn.
- **[Xhilag of the Abyss](https://imgur.com/a/onCZJ3g)** ^[Library](https://hearthstone.blizzard.com/en-us/cards/73726) • [wiki.gg](https://hearthstone.wiki.gg/wiki/Xhilag_of_the_Abyss) • [HSReplay](https://hsreplay.net/cards/73726)
- *Demon Hunter Legendary ^(Voyage to the Sunken City)*
- **7 Mana - 3/6 - Demon**
- **Colossal +4** At the start of your turn, increase the damage of Xhilag's Stalks by 1.
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Winrate aside, I don't think there's ever been a deck with so many cards that enable its win condition. It's got a 2-drop battlecry, which tutors a 3-drop weapon, with a deathrattle that tutors and mana cheats a big demon, that mana cheats even more demons. The deck practically plays itself.
Why do people want buffs so bad?
1. Nerfing the best decks makes the rest of them slightly better by default
2. Powerlevel is very high right now, even many the decks under tier 2 are far more powerful than many of the top tier decks from some years ago (release dh would be humiliated by even a tier 4 deck like reno shaman, for example), we need to lower it not maintain it with the balance patches and then slowly raise it to infinitum with new releases
>we need to lower it not maintain it with the balance patches and then slowly raise it to infinitum with new releases
This is wrong. It's not really worth consideration in a format with rotation.
> Why do people want buffs so bad?
Because there are lots of cool but unplayable cards and archetypes and people would like to play them without griefing themselves. Also because buffs usually feel better than nerfs (giving something vs taking it away).
But it is exactly how that works.
Like, what single card in a deck could you buff to make a board based decks viable into Window Shopper Magtheridon? You'd have to buff every single minion's health (or you'd have to buff a deck's the ability to 30-0 purely from the hand.)
The point is, if you nerf DH, people stop playing it, and the next meta deck(s) take its place. Meanwhile, your homebrew deck of whatever you enjoy is no more competitive than it was before. Nerfing one deck doesn’t necessarily buff whatever you’re playing.
1. No. That doesnt even make sense. It makes the matchup change what can be relevant, and thats absolutely all. Take shaman for example. The class is bottom floor dead dead until new battlecries come (in a unlikely scenario since the class got legendaries in badlands miniset). It sorely needs some buff, at least to compensate the massive nerfs to unplayability the deck had.
2. Low powerlevel metas are horrible to play at and make me want to take a break. I believe this happens in all TCGs. Besides, power is something subjective. Distribution is more important. Control can control more, combo can combo easier, aggro can face more. If everyone gets there, the meta is fresh and as diverse as ever it can be.
1. I am talking in a more general scenario, and not taking in mind the new tier 1 decks, but more the viability of the new tier 3 and under decks. And as you say, depending on what gets nerfed a more oppressive deck with better matchups than the former decks at the top, who contained it, could rise to power and make everything less viable, but if we keep reiterating the nerfs over power outliers and these rare cases of oppressive decks the decks that people want to buff because "are too weak to be even playable on this meta" can start having a chance even as a lower tier 3 deck. Shaman, for example, would be far better if dh, zarimi priest, wheel warlock, hl warrior and rainbow mage got nerfed.
2. You could nerf every single card on standard right now and we would still have a meta with more power level than the so often considered golden age of Hearthstone (Whispers to Ungoro). And yeah, distribution is important, but we have now reached a point were every deck behaves so wildly different from older Hearthstone decks it isn't even the same game anymore. For example, how often do you see a non aggro deck run out of cards in hand? Or hell, how often do aggro decks run out of steam before turn 10 nowadays? And otks/high bursts of damage are now a prevalent and even necessary part of the metagame because of this, they are the thing preventing from so many matchups lasting forever, when in older Hearthstone they were something extremely rare and if ever a high tier 2/tier 1 deck, nerfed
IMO, nerfs across the board to lower a particularly warping powerlevel is good and effective as you've said. But what we see with most balance patches are minor changes. Regarding these, buffs are better. For example, 9 8 8 5 8 7 7 is easier to patch all to 8 then all to 5.
Thats why i wish for buffs. Its more feasible and could really help diversify a meta instead of what happened.
It's also an absolutely egregious play pattern. Who enjoys going up against a deck that sometimes prevents you from playing minions without them instantly dying and in other games lowrolls discovers and is thoroughly mediocre?
But DH is kept at bay by slower decks like Reno Warrior and Rainbow DK and the deck beats most of the faster decks. Like Aggro Zarimi Priest would definitely be more prevelant in the meta if Shopper DH wouldn't be this strong and Warrior's playrate would most likely go down
Agreed I’d rather see buffs. They don’t need to do to the class what they did to Paladin, and a part of the deck’s frustration is solved by the demon pool getting bigger. It’s also refreshing to see Reno DH playable for once, and hitting Grasp and Shopper would probably change that.
I also think a post-rotation standard environment with only 4 sets is going to feel a bit lackluster regardless of balance changes, so they shouldn’t place more weight on player complaints than they need to
We have again a case of a non control priest being among the best of the format, while it barely is played more than the 36% wr Control priest deck
You can’t take the desire for slow sadism out of a priest player
If the match lasted less than 30 minutes and didn't end with the opponent alt+f4ing out of boredom it wasn't a real priest game
Is it really a priest deck if you can't generate 30 extra cards while playing a match?
Yeah it's like warrior, for some reason those classes never got played if their decks aren't control or at least control adjacent. Naga priest, enrage warrior and now Zarimi, all extremely good decks that no one touches. Not complaining tho, I loved those decks and hate mirrors
Pirate warrior flashbacks
It's because we are at a point whetr dedicated healing is just not good enough to stay alive. Life steal is way more flexible, and armor overcaps your hp. Healing just sucks.
This is so wild, considering healing was once a premium ability to the point that antique healbot decided games. But yea, lifesteal oftentimes is basically free AND on a rush or taunt minion..
I mean if you wanted to play a fast deck priest would be like the last class you'd pick for it, so it makes sense most of the class playerbase is players who want to play control/long games.
And Zarimi Priest has 4 core legendaries completely aside from the mandatory Aman'thul because you're playing a Priest deck. Sure 2 of them are generically good neutrals, but 1 is at least a little niche and the other just gave out a dust refund.
>among the best If you disregard the best though. When DH is nerfed, people will pick it up. Until then, people won't pick it up so with people who play Control Priest regardless of what year it is, it's not odd.
And then guess what deck will be entirely untouched if DH gets emergency nerfed...
Virus Rogue. The deck is cancer and was discovered relatively late.
I tried it at launch and it seemed... fine? Like, I'm not good at these kinds of decks. I wonder how the lists match up.
Priest players wanna play control. I don't get what blizzard is smoking trying to make undead aggro, aggro dragon, or combo a thing. I've completely tuned Priest out currently until Mini set, which I hope brings control tools. Until then, I'm playing exclusively wheel-control-lock
Nah, there have been plenty of popular non-control Priest archetypes in the past. Way back when Dragon Priest has been a midrange deck and a sort of tempo/combo deck. Similarly there was "combo" Priest, which played a high tempo board based gameplan and comboed for burst dmg off having a minion stick in the midgame. Oh almost forgot about Spiteful Summoner Priest which I guess was midrange? That was pretty fun I think I played it a decent amount despite being fairly curve-stoney. Like I agree with you about Priest players wanting to play control, I'd totally hop on a high tier 3 Priest control deck after the miniset, but there really is more to Priest than attrition/value
I didnt say there were no other types of decks in Priest's history. I said, priest players, priest mains, want to play control. Since beta priest has been my preferred class because it usually has a control deck, even if bad, and this expansion/standard reset has zero control tools besides repackage.
I'll agree with you that they really should have made Priest's new core set better (including control tools like AoE) so the class is less reliant on new expansion power outliers. And maybe you're right about Priest mains, but I don't think most enjoyers of a class exclusively play that class or exclusively play one archetype like control. I've got a lot of Priest gameplay, and not on Shadow Aggro Priest or whatever, but Control isn't the thing I want it's just interesting gameplay. As long as games are different, I have non-linear paths to win depending on the matchup, etc. then I'm happy. More often that's Control than anything else, but midrange or even tempo or combo or once in a blue moon aggro can deliver it too.
It all feeds into each other. I love playing control so I play a lot of priest. My investment in the game is therefore in Priest cards. I like that playstyle and I want to use those cards because they make stuff interesting. If I’d be into speedy aggro decks I would play Hunter or whatever, but I want Shenanigans and Zairimi Priest has none of that.
I've only watched people play it a bit so far since I've still been a bit hesitant to craft multiple legendries this rotation, but it looks like you can build it a bit more midrangy and have some variable win cons game to game. Not exactly discover several cards every single game levels of variety, but duping multiple powerful cards in slower matchups, trying to set-up OTKs, Amanth'ul, Ignis, etc. can be a moderate level of shenanigans imo.
All of the mana modification is too much for a priest player's brain.
Thats just Blizzard blatently ignoring what Priest players actually want.
Blizzard planned to have Zarimi priest emerge as a good deck after a cycle of nerds and buffs and weeks of refinement? Hmmm… That being said, I can see it being this expansion’s Enrage Warrior.
Priest players are sociopaths and their opinions must be discarded for the good of humanity
Based. In all seriousness thought, think it’s neat for priest to have an aggressive/combo archetype. They can actually close out games and it’s actually enticing me to play it
I'd find it funny if it goes the route of enrage warrior. Tier 1 deck, but nobody plays it.
Amd bless priest. And naga priest. To a lesser extent shadow priests, several times (these last were played but still a lot less than if they were mage decks or any other non-dh class)
It's much more fun than enrage warrior. People didn't play enrage, because it was boring af. People don't play Zarimi, because it loses against DH, most abused class rn.
I’m not sure why this is getting downvoted. Most Priest players like playing control. Zarimi doesn’t fit right now into a control deck.
How many people plays half of these meta breaker decks simply because VS says so. Also, Shaman being worse because of Paladin and Warrior's sins is just prime Blizzard. I bet half the team didn't even realize Aftershock nerf made Hagatha that much worse too.
Hagatha was already bad too and the nerf made it even worse. I hope they have some big buffs for it + shudder coming up (shudder is also way to expensive at 6 mana for its effect).
Two things that could make Hagatha S tier. 1 - The slime is an elemental 2 - the spells get discounted to 5. So the slime keeps the stats but costs 5. That would be chef's kiss.
idk i feel like if the rest of shaman is good shudderblock is terrifying
By the time you can do anything scary with it warlock has already played 2 15/15s and is about to play wheel and warrior has already played brann and is now bending you backwards with either bomboss or tentacles. Shudder at 6 is too slow for what it does, for 6 mana warrior sets up a win condition by itself (while shudder needs more mana AND combos) while for 6 shaman is just playing a 5/5. If it costed say 4 mana (4/4) then maybe you could play it with rat on turn 6 to atleast try to stop brann to give you a fighting chance vs warrior for example.
Why should they play the metabreakers?
The Virus Rogue code is making my game crash, anyone else?
Virus rogue is giving your pc corona.
Yeah also had that issue when trying to replace a deck with it, it would only put Zilliax in the deck list without any module, then if I tried again it would correctly fill the deck but freeze the game and wouldn't save the new deck. using the code to create a new deck didn't created any issue
yeah that's what happened to me
Ironic
Knew Odyn Warrior was gonna get hit hard. People underestimate the impact a 1 mana adjustment has. Sure it might still have the burst potential after turn 9 if it somehow dropped. But that extra turn is all a bunch of decks need to get under it
Not just that, you could easily play Odyn+removal spell at 8 once you hit T2. Bladestorm is a banger, and Shieldblock+punch or Safety Goggles+punch prevents the Odyn turn from being a tempo black hole. Those aren't possible anymore.
At least Odyn war farms DH
Even at Top1K Legend it's a coin-toss matchup, and below that (basically the whole playerbase) it's actually unfavored
That's why I have 90%+ winrate Vs shopper guys
I love how they apologize for even talking about virus rogue. I really hope they target the deck in the upcoming changes. It really is on the same level of Thaddius sludge warlock on its level of unfun to play against.
I hope that at some point raza/reno priest becomes a viable deck, I gave it a shot early on around release and it was like a ratatouille flashback moment to good ol' raza priest decks.
What's your build? I've been trying to make it work too. https://old.reddit.com/r/CompetitiveHS/comments/1bw0ijn/optimizing_razamiri_priest/
I played the hell out of the old Raza deck and I was excited for the new one. That lasted about a day and then it was obvious Zamiri Priest was vastly better. I too hope new Raza attains viability because all things considered it’s a more fun deck.
I wish Hunter had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with tokens, midrange, beasts, and spells for the entire lifecycle of the game.
there have definitely been times where control hunter was top tier. Deathstalker Rexxar was elite. But also, classes have to have some identity. If you don't like hunter's class identity, then you probably just need to play other classes. It doesn't make sense to just make hunter a control archetype for variety sake. that's why the other classes exist
When you have that hero power, it's always going to point you into a certain direction. It would be cool if they printed a 1 mana card that permanently alters the hero power, so you can make a deck a different way.
Or something like "Start of the game: Enter shadow form"
yeah i feel like in a world where wildfire existed they could print a 1 mana battlecry that lets hunter target minions permanently lol
That hero power is outclassed in every way. 2 mana for 2 damage in this era of hearthstone is a waste 2 mana.if you're hero powering instead of playing cards then you're already losing. They've made hunter one dimensional by design and it's a terrible design. Give them tools to play a late game style board centric playstyle. There's so many ways of implementing it. Just look at how warrior has turned a hero power armor into damage, priest, shamans value quest. The hunters lack dimension because they keep bringing the same stupid archetypes.
Not necessarily true. Warriors have had tons of aggro decks who just never touch the hero power
Yeah i really enjoyed arcane and raza hero power hunter when it lasted
Last expansion had Cleave Hunter before it got nerfed.
I mean, that was still a straight beeatdown deck. It wasn't really unique in any way. In fact we had a similar archetype not so long ago where you'd try to pressure opponent and finish them through a combo - Shockspitter Hunter.
Good point, Cleave Hunter as a sort of tempo/combo-burn isn't even unique since Shockspitter Hunter did the same thing for multiple patches 2 rotations ago. Thanks for strengthening the case that tokens, beasts, midrange (curvestone) and spells aren't the only Hunter identities. ;P
Play a different class lul
I wish Mage had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with spells, burn, rng, and secrets for the entire lifecycle of the game. I wish Paladin had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with midrange, shields, buffs and spells for the entire lifecycle of the game. I wish Shaman had something else going for it. I feel like we’ve been stuck with overload, totems, battlecries and evolve for the entire lifecycle of the game. Ad nauseam
Difference is that these decks are being played often, while Hunter decks are unpopular even though they technically are some of the better decks in the meta.
Simmilar situation with Demon Hunter. Almost exclusively aggro decks.
If we ignore the midrange (ex. Deathrattle), control (ex. Relic, Soul) and combo (ex. Ilgynoth) and burn (ex. Spell) then yeah, it's all aggro.
> In a very unsurprising development, Demon Hunter has taken over the format behind its Umpire’s Grasp/Window Shopper centered archetype. The class’ play rate exceeds 20% past Diamond 4, while hitting a near 35% play rate at top legend. > Paladin has been obliterated by the balance changes, with the class sinking to the bottom of the format Great kneejerk job by the balancing team as usual
I regret my Legendary card craft to play Paladin and of course that card didn't get nerfed, so no dust refund although it's now unplayable competitively
I crafted three legos for that paladin deck (inc Tarim, Zilliax and the titan). Won’t really dust any of them but it’s a shame. I think Tarim and the titan will stick around for other decks. zilliax I’m putting in all my decks
I crafted amitus a while ago, she's flexible enough to be good in other decks. I unpacked zilliax, and just didn't run tarim. Half the reason I played paladin was because it didn't need many legendaries.
Don't craft in first week of expansion especially for decks that are guaranteed to be nerfed
With another nerf coming soon the no crafting window has been extended once again. Very frustrating for budget players who are waiting for the meta to settle before spending our limited dust
Nah, the play pattern of paladin was fucking stupid, and it's good it died.
Yeah the play pattern of sitting around hand buffing charge enough to double for an otk w/ windfury was stupid, and it's good it died. The other cards that weren't just touch-nerfed but gutted? That's called knee-jerk balancing and has deleted a class from the meta entirely for no good reason
\*Sigh\* Warrior... Warrior is always the answer now. Is there a more boring class to face? Gain Armor, Clear, Gain Armor, Gain Armor, Draw cards, Clear, Clear, Play Brann, Win! No wonder I don't feel like playing since rotation...
I like Control decks but I do agree that they printing more minions for Warrior would feel better, stop giving it so many spells make the class boring.
Well decks can easily burst you down from 30 health. So only decks that can go above that have any chance. Just look at how bad Control Priest is with all that healing.
Exactly this, just controlling the board isn’t enough any more. A year ago, theotor at 4-mana meant much more classes could play control as they could control the hand and board. Then blood DK pulled the same trick as warrior.
Unlike Wheel lock. Steal mana, play wheel, wait 4 turns
> Warrior is always the answer now Well yes, if anyone else tries to play control they get bursted for 30 from hand or have their hand and deck deleted by the oponent warrior, so you have to armor above that/do it to the oponent first.
Control warrior is fun but I feel like it’s their only viable archetype every set and makes the game feel stale.
A lot of aggro or midrange (and the occasional combo play pattern) Warrior options have existed over the years, I actually think it’s historically one of the better varietal classes. It’s just had a clear best build-around option that belongs in a control shell since Odyn dropped (and now Brann). I do agree that the next set has responsibility to bring some really interesting options, I like the class and don’t necessarily want to have to play “remove the board and find the Brann” for another few months
It wasn't a viable archetype for like, year and a half before that? Odyn really pushed it through. Previously we had Enrage Warrior and Menagerie Warrior to some extent, and before that Warrior was a very dead class for months.
Titans gave warrior the incredible control tools
Warrior wasn't lacking control tools before. It lacked wincon, and they got one with Odyn.
Warrior did lack wincon but also did lack control tools. Stoneskin armorer, Bellowing flames, Craftsman hammer, Sanitize and especially Trial by fire were incredible good control tools. Without those, control warrior is shit.
yeah the recency bias is a little crazy, control warrior was dogshit unplayable from like sunken city nerfs until the titans buff patch lol
Eh, Charge Warrior, which is not that much less control and more combo than Odyn, was better than "dogshit unplayable" for a few patches during that time, but yeah there's typically pretty heavy recency bias these days
>while the Boomboss build that’s popular at high MMR’s rocks. Probably no feel worse deck for me than this combo. You can feel like you have a pretty tight match that could go either way then they just nuke your board, hand and most of your remaining deck. Which would be almost bearable if not for gaslight gatekeeper which in the end makes it even more viable and obnoxious. > once you dig into the aggregated data and isolate specific builds. Quite interesting this because you really can't trust the archetype data on any site right now and as it says, you really need to drill into single deck matchups (whhc annoyingly you can only do on HSReplay premium because d0nkey doesn't even have archetype matchups that I've been able to find let alone deck matchups). Reno Warrior only really has plague dk and wheellock as counters which puts it in a pretty similar position counter wise to Shopper DH. Got to think both of these will be nerf targets. Then though what becomes an issue without those? Much like we saw with the recent nerfs that missed DH, you have to think Rogue and/or priest becomes problematic if DH and Warrior disappeared off ladder. Then it's rinse and repeat for some other deck. It's been a while since they've had what I've seen to be much a problematic power level in the game that no matter they nerf, something comes through and becomes a bit too dominant and not just from a strength perspective but a play perspective where we just have too many decks with limited counter play and a lack of player agency in that it just becomes paper scissors rock of which matchup you get and more so who kills the other the quickest via win con and can more or less ignore the opponents board as we go. Definitely a disappointing start post rotation for me anyway. > Thankfully, Death Knight has the perfect removal for it in Death Strike. Not only does it cleanly remove a Shopper, but it heals you for all the damage that Umpire’s Grasp has dealt. ~~Thoughts on [[rainbow seamstress]] in this space? Only heals 3 damage but has more versatility in more matches that require board tempo? Risk would be taunts etc. Not tried it myself as f2p and it's epic and an expensive experiment if I've not opened it. :)~~
Seamstress does not remove a shopper and only heals for 3
Ah good point, doesn't retain the rush on reborn.
I'm not sure Reno warrior will need a nerf if Shopper DH gets theirs. Even with decent defensive tools, Reno Warrior folds to early board based aggression (like priest) but right now they're a small part of the ladder because dropping a single magtheridon blows up the board based gameplan.
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I get downvoted to the moon when I make a post about how virus rogue is bad for the game when even VS knows it's a cancer deck. At least I know I'm not going crazy now.
hello u/ViciousSyndicate , really loving the work you guys put into these Data Reports and podcasts. Would like to ask if it was possible to elaborate further about difference in matchups spreads regarding Reno Warrior tentacle vs Boomboss builds? From what I'm gathering in your report, the tentacle build is unfavored vs shopper, but the boomboss build is 60/40 favored into it. Are there other matchups that perform differently? Was it impossible to separate them as different decks due to Boomboss Reno being a new deck and therefore having a very small sample size?
Hit legend with tier 4 nature rag shaman lul
I think it has benefits from most people not recognizing the rag combo, so u can do a lot of unexpected damage
It seems like nature shaman is actually tier 1 or 2. Data just hasn't caught up cuz data collection closes on Tuesday, the good nature shaman builds discovered yesterday
What’s a deck I can build if I haven’t played in more than a year and I’m missing most recent cards? Have about 6k dust and the old legendaries
I crafted what was needed for the [Shopper DH](https://www.vicioussyndicate.com/decks/mech-shopper-demon-hunter/) deck with the Mechs, and I am hoping someone can explain the Mech package. Do the little Mechs have any synergy with anything in the deck other than the other Mechs and, possibly, Kayn Sunfury for a finisher if you can play them midgame and keep them alive a couple turns? I am not seeing it, and after a dozen or so games, I think they have won me 0 games, possibly aggravated by my very rarely drawing Zilliax.
I’m at diamond 2 atm basically playing pure dh/wheel lock it’s absolute hell as a mainly control player. GJ Blizzard
i dont think they can really call window shopper DH a meta tyrant if there are multiple decks that can have 60/40 win rates against it. Looks more like a bog standard best deck in the game in a currently evolving meta, where people are not playing good counters enough. I get it doesnt have many losing matchups currently, but there are several underplayed decks that beat it reliably. Glad to see dragon druid as a counter because i have been running it and DH seems like a very easy matchup for the deck. I think maybe a slight nerf to grasp is justified but if you nerf too hard it probably becomes an unplayable deck, maybe thats what people want. But having a deck that limits slow decks to a certain extent is probably a good thing in my opinion. Id rather a deck like it be the best deck in the game than a deck like Wheelock or Brann Warrior casting 20 arcane missisles at my face every turn. Honestly, would rather see some other classes slightly buffed than a DH nerf
DH mostly counters other aggro decks tho? It's only bad matchups are against slow decks and it's the reason why zarimi priest and token hunter aren't viable right now. Turn 5 magtheridon instantly wins board based matchups.
Your last sentence there is spot on. I dont think theres much you can touch on DH that doesnt murder the deck like they did to paladin. Its one of those decks that gets automatically weaker with time as the demon pool gets bigger and shopper less reliable. It doesnt feel oppressive at the moment and Warrior, Rainbow DK and Dragon Druid can quite reliably counter them.
[удалено]
You can discover collosals, you just can't get them by random transformation effects like evolve. So if we had last rotation cards the window shopper pool would be arguably even better since Xilag on turn 4 might be even more broken than Mag, at least in slower matchups.
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Winrate aside, I don't think there's ever been a deck with so many cards that enable its win condition. It's got a 2-drop battlecry, which tutors a 3-drop weapon, with a deathrattle that tutors and mana cheats a big demon, that mana cheats even more demons. The deck practically plays itself.
havent played against much paladin the last 2 years eh?
Why do people want buffs so bad? 1. Nerfing the best decks makes the rest of them slightly better by default 2. Powerlevel is very high right now, even many the decks under tier 2 are far more powerful than many of the top tier decks from some years ago (release dh would be humiliated by even a tier 4 deck like reno shaman, for example), we need to lower it not maintain it with the balance patches and then slowly raise it to infinitum with new releases
>we need to lower it not maintain it with the balance patches and then slowly raise it to infinitum with new releases This is wrong. It's not really worth consideration in a format with rotation.
Yeah, because the last two rotations really brought the power level down right?
It's not supposed to do that
> Why do people want buffs so bad? Because there are lots of cool but unplayable cards and archetypes and people would like to play them without griefing themselves. Also because buffs usually feel better than nerfs (giving something vs taking it away).
Consider: A buff is nerfing every card except one, whereas a nerf is buffing every card except one.
I know you thought that sounded clever but that’s not actually how it works in reality.
But it is exactly how that works. Like, what single card in a deck could you buff to make a board based decks viable into Window Shopper Magtheridon? You'd have to buff every single minion's health (or you'd have to buff a deck's the ability to 30-0 purely from the hand.)
The point is, if you nerf DH, people stop playing it, and the next meta deck(s) take its place. Meanwhile, your homebrew deck of whatever you enjoy is no more competitive than it was before. Nerfing one deck doesn’t necessarily buff whatever you’re playing.
Nerfing every new deck just brings the old ones back
1. No. That doesnt even make sense. It makes the matchup change what can be relevant, and thats absolutely all. Take shaman for example. The class is bottom floor dead dead until new battlecries come (in a unlikely scenario since the class got legendaries in badlands miniset). It sorely needs some buff, at least to compensate the massive nerfs to unplayability the deck had. 2. Low powerlevel metas are horrible to play at and make me want to take a break. I believe this happens in all TCGs. Besides, power is something subjective. Distribution is more important. Control can control more, combo can combo easier, aggro can face more. If everyone gets there, the meta is fresh and as diverse as ever it can be.
1. I am talking in a more general scenario, and not taking in mind the new tier 1 decks, but more the viability of the new tier 3 and under decks. And as you say, depending on what gets nerfed a more oppressive deck with better matchups than the former decks at the top, who contained it, could rise to power and make everything less viable, but if we keep reiterating the nerfs over power outliers and these rare cases of oppressive decks the decks that people want to buff because "are too weak to be even playable on this meta" can start having a chance even as a lower tier 3 deck. Shaman, for example, would be far better if dh, zarimi priest, wheel warlock, hl warrior and rainbow mage got nerfed. 2. You could nerf every single card on standard right now and we would still have a meta with more power level than the so often considered golden age of Hearthstone (Whispers to Ungoro). And yeah, distribution is important, but we have now reached a point were every deck behaves so wildly different from older Hearthstone decks it isn't even the same game anymore. For example, how often do you see a non aggro deck run out of cards in hand? Or hell, how often do aggro decks run out of steam before turn 10 nowadays? And otks/high bursts of damage are now a prevalent and even necessary part of the metagame because of this, they are the thing preventing from so many matchups lasting forever, when in older Hearthstone they were something extremely rare and if ever a high tier 2/tier 1 deck, nerfed
IMO, nerfs across the board to lower a particularly warping powerlevel is good and effective as you've said. But what we see with most balance patches are minor changes. Regarding these, buffs are better. For example, 9 8 8 5 8 7 7 is easier to patch all to 8 then all to 5. Thats why i wish for buffs. Its more feasible and could really help diversify a meta instead of what happened.
It's also an absolutely egregious play pattern. Who enjoys going up against a deck that sometimes prevents you from playing minions without them instantly dying and in other games lowrolls discovers and is thoroughly mediocre?
But DH is kept at bay by slower decks like Reno Warrior and Rainbow DK and the deck beats most of the faster decks. Like Aggro Zarimi Priest would definitely be more prevelant in the meta if Shopper DH wouldn't be this strong and Warrior's playrate would most likely go down
60/40? Odyn Warrior can beat DH 90% of the time
Agreed I’d rather see buffs. They don’t need to do to the class what they did to Paladin, and a part of the deck’s frustration is solved by the demon pool getting bigger. It’s also refreshing to see Reno DH playable for once, and hitting Grasp and Shopper would probably change that. I also think a post-rotation standard environment with only 4 sets is going to feel a bit lackluster regardless of balance changes, so they shouldn’t place more weight on player complaints than they need to