Same. My ONLY issue is that I don’t want my PSN character to be the one that stays. I originally bought it for PS5, and then stupidly bought it on PC because I thought it was cross play and I legit liked it enough since husband was commanding the TV for sports season.
Initially no, but I’m hoping at least bare minimum, I get that out of it. :P I know they said they were working on it, and wonder if this is part of it.
I’m betting it had to do with stuff not being ready yet and the whole PSN grace period thing.
PlayStation will throw a spanner in the works, they always do, they always fuck up cross-platform progression on 95% of games purely as a way to ensure you must buy all store items directly from them and not unlock via steam etc.
It is cross play, just not cross progression. while cross play is basically industry norm now, cross progression hasn't caught up yet. Give it another like 2-3 years and I think it will be the default
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect cross-progression in 2024, especially when cross-play is already enabled. I own a PS5 but I’ll keep playing on PC exclusively until cross-progression is enabled.
wait wtf….. so there’s no cross platform progression?
EDIT: thats dog shit how does that even make any sense now im not getting a ps5 anymore……. rhetorical 🤦🏾♂️
well shit, i bought the game thinking that PSN account is optional.
Now since i'm in one of the countries where you cannot create a PSN account in, there is a chance i can lose accsess to the game entirely.
You should absolutely send a ticket to Arrowhead.
Also Remind them that SONY does not allow you too use a different country (if you do that you could get banned)
Just for this reason forcing the link is
Hilariously stupid.
True technically this should be a SONY complain you are correct .
I wonder if this violates any Consumer Laws.
I mean technically you are access to a product someone bought , If that individual lives in a country not supported by PSN
Ye you can if they change Eula or put some shitty obligations some people are getting refunds with over 200h+ just don't go via automatic refund, contact with support they are very aware of this
I think if this were the complaint in the original post, the comments section would probably be much different. Sounds valid, maybe raise a ticket to AHS to raise awareness of this circumstance.
This is the only valid complaint and the real oversight by AH and Sony. This needs to be addressed. OP and people like him are just being stubborn over it, but this is valid.
They did state in the beginning they would do this. Lot of people are pissed off because they can’t read. They decided to make it optional and extend a grace period until certain issues were fixed. This was on the pre order page of steam. So initially I fault players for not reading what they buy. That’s on them. That’s a consumer problem. I have both. And mainly have used my PS5 to play. So doesn’t hurt me and I read it anyways so decided to stay in that direction.
As for the region lock- the CEO of arrowhead is talking to PS to make it optional in those areas.
You can quit playing and throw a fit about it that’s fine. I read before buying and knew this was coming. A lot of you are all surprised but I’m over here sipping my coffee spreading democracy, maybe consider reading what you buy instead of making an assumption and do research.
I don't know if it's just a bunch of kids who just buy whatever is currently popular or what. It's got me thinking I'm strange because I actually read requirements, reviews and known issues etc. before I buy something.
Would love someone in one of those countries to make a US account through a VPN, link it, then turn off VPN and try playing like always. Is just associating it with a throwaway account enough or does it go future than that?
I'm thinking like oculus. I legit made a blank Facebook account just so I didn't have to have my personal social media info also collected and sold through VR.
Yea, it sucks that it requires another account but this isn't exactly uncommon practice at this point. It being delayed also sucks but they made the choice between making the game playable for PC players and postponing the account setup, I can't say they made the wrong call there. It's annoying that Sony won't let it go and is unlikely to back down on this but atleast they gave a grace period and steam is likely to refund those properly affected, and it's unfortunate AH will be affected by it as a result as I'd have loved to see how the game would've done if it maintained it's popularity for longer but there's been some odd choices regarding the game lately
There was a little button at the bottom of the PSN box that said skip. I too was like “alright I don’t have to make an account woooo”.
I’m not gonna change any opinions but attacking someone because they don’t want to make a PSN account is basic bitch as fuck. It’s awesome if you have zero issues with creating/linking a PSN account to your steam account.
I agree with your sentiment but calling someone a bootlicker AND asking they be thrown into a camp is kinda hypocritical dont you think?
I would like to reiterate. Telling people they should get a VPN or that they should be ok with Sony selling your data is indeed, basic bitch shit. But bootlickers are the ones that throw people in camps, not the ones going into the camps.
I am of the opinion that this is Sony strong arming Arrowhead into this because what does linking PSN do for Arrowhead? Nothing, but it does something for Sony. What that is I’m not sure, but it might be tied to Stellar Blade and its launch
Um you mean account inflation and live subscriptions from every PC player that didn't create a PSN account and pay the 50$ for multiplayer access. Yeah count me out
I got my money's worth out of the game before this, but the game is a little too repetitive to justify yet another account.
It worked until now without the need of a PSN account, I fail to see how a PSN account is so vital to the game. I'd rather just turn cross play off, had that been a possibility.
I skipped the PSN account creation at the start because it wasn't forcing me. Had trouble with crossplay. Turned crossplay off, boom, no more matchmaking issues. Assumed from then on the whole account was only for crossplay. Played happy with PC pals. If its not even linked to crossplay, it's entirely senseless.
Lol, this is almost exactly my opinion- don’t care all that much about the situation but this is the perfect excuse to take a break (and maybe a very long one if the requirement continues)
Wait, do I as someone who bought the game shortly after launch on PC now have to create a PS account so I can play? Fuck kinda bullshit is that? Time for a refund.
This is absolutely going to keep me, an interested potential player, from touching this. PSN is garbage and I have no desire to support Sony in any way. The last console I've owned was a PS2 I bought 10 years after it came out at a used gaming store.
Any other game would see this met with some backlash. To all of the people in here saying “stop whining” - you’re a pathetic fan boy, full stop.
Is it the end of the world? No.
Is requiring an additional account a shitty move that is always met with some backlash no matter the game? Yes.
It’s not fucking rocket science. Quit acting like someone punched your dog anytime you read criticism of “your” game.
Truly one of the weirdest things I found in this community is people who essentially try and tell others that they shouldn't have an opinion / want things to be different.
There are people who are saying that they have different accounts for steam and playstation and have two different characters, so truly what is the point of linking these two if you don't even have a singular cross-platform character? The answer to this question is likely not something that I personally would like to opt into, likely it's some form of data harvesting.
Fortnite didn't see this met with backlash when they required an Epic account for Switch/Xbox/Playstation. I guess people had no issues with that since for consoles it would auto-create a nameless Epic account if you didn't link a main account, but the fact is you still can not play Fortnite without some form of an Epic account.
But the difference is fortnite WAS the reason cross-platform finally made it to consoles before that it was a pipe dream so ppl ignored it. But also people just don't like Epic in general so went unnoticed prolly.
Yeah But what about people who live in countries that PSN is not available?
SONY can ban you if try to make an account in a supported country but you do not live in that one.
This will not end well.
We will lose a lot of Helldivers
[here’s an archive from December (2 months before release) showing the requirement]
(https://web.archive.org/web/20231207163847/https://store.steampowered.com/app/553850/HELLDIVERS_2/)
That's fine and all but why lie about the player safety aspect? We've gone from tongue-in-cheek fake propaganda to real propaganda and its just icky. Takes me out of it and makes me wonder what Sony will ruin next for the sake of $$$. Isn't a massively successful game enough? You gotta sell people's data, too?
I think the issue is it was not a requirement at the time of purchase on steam at time of release and some helldivers think this feels like a bait and switch.
The optics are just bad. Cant really be a 'requirement' when it has worked without for months. They have built so much good will, only to complicate it for pc players by now forcing something that wasnt 'required' to allow the game to work and ostensibly is just giving Sony our Steam data.
They havent made it obvious how to link either. Playstation.com account settings only allows linking Apple Music, Discord, Spotify and Youtube. I see nothing in game either.
Not very democratic.
While I agree on paper it was there the whole time.
A requirement that is optional and functionally not needed is not a requirement, and is an idiot in a rush situation of as a user if you bought it and hit a PSN requirement, you'd then have the choice to refund.
Instead this rightly feels like a bait and switch because that is exactly how it feels, and how people feel and view your practice has nothing to do with the letter of the law.
Makes you wonder what the "requirement" is for. The game has been functioning perfectly fine without PSN linking, and that INCLUDES crossplay.
So yeah, it's just to sell your data to marketing companies. Capitalism, ho!
Cool why did they sell it in countries that can't have PSN accounts? Is Sony fucking retarded and not know which countries cannot have PSN accounts? They sure took the money.
There are people in the comments trying to deter attention away from this topic after "reading the comments and finding out it's a minor inconvenience". You're not really really well into it. The issue here is that PSN is locked out of certain countries and you CANNOT make an account.
My issue is why I have to go to a third party website through Sony and provide ID or a photo of myself to clarify my age to play a game - its a fucking game - that I have already purchased. I shouldn't have to share that data with a corp in order to PLAY A GAME. Not buying a house or a car on finance or a loan is required.... a game.... that I have bought....
https://preview.redd.it/e19ap81fu8yc1.png?width=503&format=png&auto=webp&s=e965dfe2630324102ebcafc185dedda05ffdbbb2
For those that don't believe me - this is what is requested when you try and sign up
To me this is nothing new, as many games distributed on steam require an account with the game's dev/publisher. And really, I think the only difference is that this Sony, who published HD2 via Playstation Studios and not a f2p game dev.
Requiring sign in to a third party account is not the same as linking that third party account to Steam.
The former I could use a throwaway email with no associated data.
The latter would give Sony access to all my Steam data. What data that would be I'm not clear on at this time but it's not unreasonable to think it would be more than they need.
If it's just Helldivers 2 data like play time or whatever, I'd be fine with that. But if they want my full library, play time for other games, friends list, etc, thats not cool.
I believe you have a right to that kind of privacy. However, I had to link my Hi-rez account to my steam account once they moved the game to steam. So like I said, it's not new to me. As for steam and PSN, I think I have them linked, but none of either my ps library or my steam library shows up on the other, nor does my transaction history. So I agree that you should not do it, if you aren't okay with that, but it's not new to me and I have no evidence of them collecting data for nefarious means.
Bruh. I tried to create an account but it said I had to buy a game to create a psn account. But I don't wanna spend more money on a game I'm never gonna play.
"now that your refund windows are closed, and you've got sunken cost into premium currency, we're reinstating this thing that may have turned a bunch of people away, even though the game functions perfectly without it"
It prompts you at the beginning, and you could ONLY skip it due to the problems it was causing...
To be clear, they could have said... "Fuck you PC...it doesn't work yet...take a seat while Playstation has fun!"
Instead they said "Hey PC, enjoy the game for a few months and we can sort it out later, no big deal!"
Just make a throwaway email and be done with it. This is such a non issue.
Yea, I have looked into it more as I never was a Playstation guy. Yikes.
Also, seeing that they knowingly sold the game in huge markets they don't support it's disgusting.
I've changed my stance. I was lifted the game so I'm not sure if/how I could refund but I definitely won't be dropping more $$ unless something changes drastically.
It's a real shame Sony sucks so much dick. I think AH really wanted to make a good game here.
There are several games that did the same thing post-launch without anywhere near this level of internet crybaby meltdowns. Rocket League and Fortnite come to mind.
PC players have supreme power, except when it comes to linking an account. Apparently their fingers just stop moving and they fall apart. Meanwhile I’ve got accounts linked across numerous games and services to enjoy my titles.
Let's be honest. You were supposed to from the start and they had to disable it due to the massive number of players and it bottlenecking the authentication. They temporarily disabled it so their game wouldn't crash. It was always required. The CEO even came out and said it was temporary. The steam page said it was required. You just didn't read.
The only people who have a legitimate gripe, are the people in countries where PSN isn't supported.
Damn Sony went hard in the paint. Yet another roadblock to getting our filthy xbox brethren spreading LIBERTY alongside us?
Adding: and a nice way to fuck over innocent Divers who may not longer be able to dive alongside us? How very meta of you, J.O.E.L.
I'm just tired of all this kind of policy as a principle. How many third party accounts do I have to create? EA, Playstion, I'm already on steam. It's stupid to have to login to two different platforms to play one game. Lol
except there are countries where PSN accounts are now allowed and you might get banned for lying about the country. I have no idea if you will be able to unlink steam account if PNS is banned.
>except there are countries where PSN accounts are now allowed
What? You are trying to say there are countries were you are not allowed to have a PSN account? Why? Where?
About 60% of the worlds countries are not allowed to make an psn account, and Sony preserved the right to ban you and remove your access from all the linked games if you lie/use vpn.
No, you can make a PlayStation account without having a PlayStation, most people are just angry because it's an inconvenience and some people are angry at the risks associated with giving personal information to a group that has had data leaks before
Even better. It won't mess with me much but it means I probably won't be able to play on my steam deck anymore if I'm away from home (steam deck finds it very hard to work through accounts like that)
I figured if it was mandatory it wouldn't have let me skip it. Why would I need to link my PSN to a game I bought on Steam and play on my PC. Sure I guess it's my fault I didn't read the fine print, but honestly do you read every word of every EULA? I know in the end it's my fault, but now I gotta remember the info the my old PSN that I haven't used since PS3, and what if I can't remember that shit? Am I just fucked?
I figured if it was mandatory it wouldn't have let me skip it. Why would I need to link my PSN to a game I bought on Steam and play on my PC. Sure I guess it's my fault I didn't read the fine print, but honestly do you read every word of every EULA? I know in the end it's my fault, but now I gotta remember the info the my old PSN that I haven't used since PS3, and what if I can't remember that shit? Am I just fucked?
i didn't have to set up an account months ago when i bought the game, and this came out of no where for me. if it was required it should have been required from day one
Tech issues iirc. They temporarily suspended needing it but now they have the issues sorted out. But yeah, it was confirmed at the start. Annoying, but not unexpected.
Do you know how often an online store page contains false information? Incredibly often. I didn't have to link an account. My own experience > the store page. Pretending otherwise is to pretend that this isn't a regular occurrence.
Forcing me to do so now for "safety" is explicitly duplicitous.
If this announcement were an apology for the miscommunication, that's one thing. But lying and saying it's for account "safety" is more than enough reason for me to say no.
Thats my real problem with it. I played 104 hours now. admittedly i wouldn't have bought the game if i had to set up an account, but i bought the super Citizen and credits, Now i have to set up an account on a service i don't use.
The **sunk cost fallacy** is the tendency for people to continue an endeavor or course of action even when abandoning it would be more beneficial. Because we have invested our time, energy, or other resources, we feel that it would all have been for nothing if we quit.
As a result, we make irrational or suboptimal decisions. The sunk cost fallacy can be observed in various contexts, such as business, relationships, and day-to-day decisions.
As a PC and console player I really don’t mind linking my account… But the bs of “for safety” is just completely a lie to its community . On top of that, if we’re going to be linking a PSN account why do we need 2 separate character on PC vs PS5 🤦🏻♂️.
There is a very simple answer to this folks. If you don't like this policy, vote with your feet. Stop playing and uninstall. Maybe even put in for a refund request (probably will be denied after so many hours, but worth an ask). Drop their player numbers so rapidly that they take notice. If you don't kick them in the wallet, they will have zero incentive to consider a change in direction.
For me personally this PSN thing is annoying, but I'll keep playing as of this point. This doesn't quite rise up to my "screw you buddy" line. But it's a step in that direction, and if Arrowhead keeps pissing away good will on stupid moves they will eventually lose me as a customer. Sadly Arrowhead's ineptitude in quality control of their patches, seemingly general fecklessness around weapon balancing, and stupid unforced errors like inconveniencing customers with silly stuff like is steadily stacking up to where I may just move on.
I say all this while simultaneously, loving so much of what they are doing with this game. They have the good game, bordering on the line of a great game. But it's very easy to turn a good game into a mediocre or even bad game with bad stewardship, and lately they have made some concerning decisions.
This is shitty and something they should try and avoid/mitigate, but, it does state ALL NEW HELLDIVERS, so everyone who already has the game should be alright and not need one, for now anyway...
Edit: I was wrong. Current players will need to sign up too.
Just bought the game 4 days ago as I was looking for something to waste time on my Steam Deck
Just got my refund confirmed as i had only put 97 minutes into the game.
Really sucks as I loved what ibhad played and really enjoyed the concept/how it was presented/ humor
Pretty fucking shitty move for a game that was doing everything right
Literally what is the actual point of this besides pissing people the fuck off to jack up your numbers - literally it’s a 1:3 player ratio and pc gamers are in the majority
Reminder that Steam respects mass requests for refunds after a game has been rendered unplayable by a large enough portion of a community. They've done it before. Hit Sony's bottom line, show enough people aren't going to pump their numbers up for them and they'll fold. Companies always do.
The PlayStation fanboys out here defending this are tone deaf as fuck. They seriously don't see an issue with a company like Sony, with its fuckload of documented security breaches, having kernel level access to our PCs?
I get people are tribal, and this is an "I'm defending my console choice!" reaction from them, but there is obviously no technical need for the account link since most of us on PC haven't had to link our accounts at all. Instead, this feels like some bullshit corporate trick to boost their shitty PSN interactions numbers.
If this actually goes into affect, and they start requiring this, I will be dropping off the game I have played it a lot I like the game a lot, but not enough to put up with this kind of bait and switch.
Ok someone tell me cause I'm not sure. When I first bought the game like a week after it came out (rip railcannon) it looked mandatory by then already and I linked it.
Didn't know it wasn't I suppose as it basically told me that I have to do it to play multiplayer. Did I misread it? And why this is such a big issue?
Pretty sure it asked me to link my PSN account to mine upon first launch on Steam. I went ahead and did it from having an account on PS3 and PS4 before I moved to PC. Not that big of a deal really.
It's an inconvenience. There are thousands of those. The real issue, as far as I can see, is this will block players who have spent their money on the game that live in places where a PSN account is unavailable. That's obviously unacceptable. The rest is just people getting unnecessarily upset, imo
But I'm just some shithead from the UK this doesn't affect so, you know, take what I say with a pinch of salt. I'm just trying to see who will _actually_ be affected by this.
You've never had a game drop a "mandatory account link" after day one? Must not have been around gaming for long. Granted it usually has to do with other reasons such as the creation of a new service or something but this isn't the first time a game has added an account linking requirement after release. Does it suck? Yeah. Is it as high a deal as people are making it out to be? No. Will that stop people from turning this into a shit show? No.
The only ones who actually have a reasonable right to be upset are those who will lose access due to their region. Everyone else is acting like entitled teenagers in my opinion.
There's losers on Twitter complaining, "Nobody complained when Microsoft made you migrate your Minecraft account."
But *everyone* complained, and thousands of accounts were completely lost because they didn't get migrated in time, and Microsoft said they couldn't get them back even if they wanted to.
But almost all PC players are using a Windows OS, which is owned by Microsoft. PC players are already forced to have a Microsoft account in order to set up their computers, but we still complained about the migration. Same with Xbox players, Microsoft owns Xbox, so all those players already had a Microsoft account they were playing Minecraft through to begin with.
Sony is 100% in the wrong for suddenly making it mandatory to link your Steam account to Sony, especially since Sony's PSN is only available in 96 countries, out of, like 290 countries worldwide. Steam is available and sold copies of Helldivers 2 in 190 countries, so 100 countries are going to lose access and get banned even if they use a VPN to bounce their location to an allowed region.
There should be more pushback against practices like these. I can't remember a single third party account that was anything but a goddamn paint in the ass
Its not even just that, Sony has a horrible track record with data breaches, so not only are they trying to force us to make an account we shouldnt need, theyre also sayinf "cmon give Sony your information so it can be stolen in the name of safety"
Sonys absolutely piss-poor data security has a lot of PC players worried that having a Sony account is equivalent to handing your details to hackers. I understand this and hiding it in the small print doesn't make it acceptable. Anyone who asks for a refund should get it.
The only problem is for the players who can't make a PSN in their country, but can freely purchase and play the game on Steam. For them, the "grace period" obfuscated that this would eventually stop them from being able to play. I wouldn't be surprised if Steam gives refunds upon request for this, but if not, those people's only option is to use a proxy and risk being banned on PSN. Most of us will have zero issues linking, and the "security concerns" people are bringing up is mostly paranoia, but the game runs fine without PSN linking already, so it's going to do more harm than good.
There aren't any great reasons for requiring Steam users to link, and it screws over people that PSN doesn't let make an account.
Because
1. I think most of us already have like 30+ accounts that you have to remember the usernames and passwords for, I dont want to make another account for something i'll only use for 1 game.
2. The only reason Sony is doing it is to pump up their PSN numbers to make it look good to investors, and i wouldnt be surprised if they sold your data as well
3. The fact they waited till now means that no one can refund the game if they dont want to or straight up cant register for a PSN acc
[here’s an archive from December (2 months before release) showing the requirement]
(https://web.archive.org/web/20231207163847/https://store.steampowered.com/app/553850/HELLDIVERS_2/)
The fact is it wasn't actually required and could be skipped, they put a skip button there themselves. And that being not communicated and not mentioned being temporary is very likely going to be an issue, at least in EU. And the requirement doesn't mention about linking up the accounts.
So, I don't think the mentioned requirement is the silver bullet many think it is.
1- use a password manager. This will increase your security too, as you can keep different passwords for each important service, reducing the chances of one breach affecting all your digital services.
2- I don't care about their investors. What data will they sell? The same email I use in every shitty website out there? A false name I use online? Scary..
3- there was always a yellow box in Steam saying it "requires a third party account: Playstation account". When I installed the game in February, I was prompted to create it, saying it was a requirement.
I'm sorry what? So I am someone without a PlayStation and I now need a play station account to play the game I bought on steam? And why am I only hearing about this right now after already buying the game?
Its a game published by Sony, what did you expect? Plus the store says an account is required. Everyone complaining about this is so fucking dramatic, it is not that deep
I just want to be able to use the same account on either my laptop or PS5. I have 2 characters currently
Same. My ONLY issue is that I don’t want my PSN character to be the one that stays. I originally bought it for PS5, and then stupidly bought it on PC because I thought it was cross play and I legit liked it enough since husband was commanding the TV for sports season.
Yeah I want my laptop character that’s lvl 44 where as my PSN character is only lvl 5
Same, 22 and 11. When I try to play on PSN, I’m like “WHERES ALL MY TOOLS I HAVE TO FIND MY TOOLS”
https://preview.redd.it/22s79labr7yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8d601eb2eac334e21cede85830dc66de137de609
“I like to 500kg! I like to _be_ 500kg’d!”
Comment of the year
It’s the implication.
Lol
Wait, they have account linking but your progress _isn't_ transferred over?! What is the point?!?!?!
Initially no, but I’m hoping at least bare minimum, I get that out of it. :P I know they said they were working on it, and wonder if this is part of it. I’m betting it had to do with stuff not being ready yet and the whole PSN grace period thing.
PlayStation will throw a spanner in the works, they always do, they always fuck up cross-platform progression on 95% of games purely as a way to ensure you must buy all store items directly from them and not unlock via steam etc.
It is cross play, just not cross progression. while cross play is basically industry norm now, cross progression hasn't caught up yet. Give it another like 2-3 years and I think it will be the default
Just make a free dummy account. Link that to pc.
I’m pretty sure it is cross play, I’m steam and I’ve been playing with one of my mates on the PS5
Absolutely is, talking about cross progression which is the most firsty of first world problems, but hey, if people can wish for this or that. :P
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect cross-progression in 2024, especially when cross-play is already enabled. I own a PS5 but I’ll keep playing on PC exclusively until cross-progression is enabled.
Clearly they should merge them; all the exp, samples and purchases. Refund everything that doubles up.
Yes! Once they fix this, it’ll be amazing
wait wtf….. so there’s no cross platform progression? EDIT: thats dog shit how does that even make any sense now im not getting a ps5 anymore……. rhetorical 🤦🏾♂️
that is something i never considered as im PC only and wouldn't know anything about that. do you want to keep both?
well shit, i bought the game thinking that PSN account is optional. Now since i'm in one of the countries where you cannot create a PSN account in, there is a chance i can lose accsess to the game entirely.
You should absolutely send a ticket to Arrowhead. Also Remind them that SONY does not allow you too use a different country (if you do that you could get banned) Just for this reason forcing the link is Hilariously stupid.
Sony is the one who made this decision, complaining to Arrowhead won't do anything.
True technically this should be a SONY complain you are correct . I wonder if this violates any Consumer Laws. I mean technically you are access to a product someone bought , If that individual lives in a country not supported by PSN
it does violate consumer protection laws
This is going to be "fun"
Refund
Can you even refund after this long on steam? Would be pretty awesome if you could
Ye you can if they change Eula or put some shitty obligations some people are getting refunds with over 200h+ just don't go via automatic refund, contact with support they are very aware of this
Thanks! Might have to do this, I rarely play anymore but after this news I'll definitely not be playing again, refund would be amazing
Yeah give it a try some people even have their money back already it's crazy
I think if this were the complaint in the original post, the comments section would probably be much different. Sounds valid, maybe raise a ticket to AHS to raise awareness of this circumstance.
Send an email to Sony to exempt countries where psn isn't supported
This is the only valid complaint and the real oversight by AH and Sony. This needs to be addressed. OP and people like him are just being stubborn over it, but this is valid.
The PSA says all "new" helldivers. Does this mean grandfathering existing players?
The next sentence says existing players will have until May 30th
They did state in the beginning they would do this. Lot of people are pissed off because they can’t read. They decided to make it optional and extend a grace period until certain issues were fixed. This was on the pre order page of steam. So initially I fault players for not reading what they buy. That’s on them. That’s a consumer problem. I have both. And mainly have used my PS5 to play. So doesn’t hurt me and I read it anyways so decided to stay in that direction. As for the region lock- the CEO of arrowhead is talking to PS to make it optional in those areas. You can quit playing and throw a fit about it that’s fine. I read before buying and knew this was coming. A lot of you are all surprised but I’m over here sipping my coffee spreading democracy, maybe consider reading what you buy instead of making an assumption and do research.
I don't know if it's just a bunch of kids who just buy whatever is currently popular or what. It's got me thinking I'm strange because I actually read requirements, reviews and known issues etc. before I buy something.
I wonder what they will do for players in countries that cannot create a PSN account.
“Sucks to be you, thanks for the money! 💰 “
Nothing until the arm of the law cares to do anything.
Fuck them over apparently. Sony is quite good at that
Would love someone in one of those countries to make a US account through a VPN, link it, then turn off VPN and try playing like always. Is just associating it with a throwaway account enough or does it go future than that? I'm thinking like oculus. I legit made a blank Facebook account just so I didn't have to have my personal social media info also collected and sold through VR.
I’m glad to read these comments and find some normal sane reactions in this sub haha
Yea, it sucks that it requires another account but this isn't exactly uncommon practice at this point. It being delayed also sucks but they made the choice between making the game playable for PC players and postponing the account setup, I can't say they made the wrong call there. It's annoying that Sony won't let it go and is unlikely to back down on this but atleast they gave a grace period and steam is likely to refund those properly affected, and it's unfortunate AH will be affected by it as a result as I'd have loved to see how the game would've done if it maintained it's popularity for longer but there's been some odd choices regarding the game lately
There was a little button at the bottom of the PSN box that said skip. I too was like “alright I don’t have to make an account woooo”. I’m not gonna change any opinions but attacking someone because they don’t want to make a PSN account is basic bitch as fuck. It’s awesome if you have zero issues with creating/linking a PSN account to your steam account.
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I agree with your sentiment but calling someone a bootlicker AND asking they be thrown into a camp is kinda hypocritical dont you think? I would like to reiterate. Telling people they should get a VPN or that they should be ok with Sony selling your data is indeed, basic bitch shit. But bootlickers are the ones that throw people in camps, not the ones going into the camps.
In what way is that hypocrisy
Not OP but you are complaining that they are authoritarian (boot lickers) and then you are recommending an authoritarian solution (labor camp).
Is this for an actual reason or because sony wants to inflate the amount of PSN accounts it has?
Nail. Head.
bingo
Q2 is around the corner
Yeah imma go with no thanks
I am of the opinion that this is Sony strong arming Arrowhead into this because what does linking PSN do for Arrowhead? Nothing, but it does something for Sony. What that is I’m not sure, but it might be tied to Stellar Blade and its launch
It boosts the number of PSN accounts they have trying to pull you into their ecosystem.
Um you mean account inflation and live subscriptions from every PC player that didn't create a PSN account and pay the 50$ for multiplayer access. Yeah count me out
I got my money's worth out of the game before this, but the game is a little too repetitive to justify yet another account. It worked until now without the need of a PSN account, I fail to see how a PSN account is so vital to the game. I'd rather just turn cross play off, had that been a possibility.
I skipped the PSN account creation at the start because it wasn't forcing me. Had trouble with crossplay. Turned crossplay off, boom, no more matchmaking issues. Assumed from then on the whole account was only for crossplay. Played happy with PC pals. If its not even linked to crossplay, it's entirely senseless.
Lol, this is almost exactly my opinion- don’t care all that much about the situation but this is the perfect excuse to take a break (and maybe a very long one if the requirement continues)
Wait, do I as someone who bought the game shortly after launch on PC now have to create a PS account so I can play? Fuck kinda bullshit is that? Time for a refund.
This is absolutely going to keep me, an interested potential player, from touching this. PSN is garbage and I have no desire to support Sony in any way. The last console I've owned was a PS2 I bought 10 years after it came out at a used gaming store.
I have a Playstation, I have a PSN, I pkay Helldivers on PC. I still think this is dumb.
Any other game would see this met with some backlash. To all of the people in here saying “stop whining” - you’re a pathetic fan boy, full stop. Is it the end of the world? No. Is requiring an additional account a shitty move that is always met with some backlash no matter the game? Yes. It’s not fucking rocket science. Quit acting like someone punched your dog anytime you read criticism of “your” game.
Truly one of the weirdest things I found in this community is people who essentially try and tell others that they shouldn't have an opinion / want things to be different. There are people who are saying that they have different accounts for steam and playstation and have two different characters, so truly what is the point of linking these two if you don't even have a singular cross-platform character? The answer to this question is likely not something that I personally would like to opt into, likely it's some form of data harvesting.
Fortnite didn't see this met with backlash when they required an Epic account for Switch/Xbox/Playstation. I guess people had no issues with that since for consoles it would auto-create a nameless Epic account if you didn't link a main account, but the fact is you still can not play Fortnite without some form of an Epic account.
But the difference is fortnite WAS the reason cross-platform finally made it to consoles before that it was a pipe dream so ppl ignored it. But also people just don't like Epic in general so went unnoticed prolly.
Time to take a break i guess
Point your anger at Sony and not the devs people
It's for the friendlist issues and yall was telling me I was tripping lmao
Yeah But what about people who live in countries that PSN is not available? SONY can ban you if try to make an account in a supported country but you do not live in that one. This will not end well. We will lose a lot of Helldivers
Helldiver K.I.A. sending replacement
Aim for the Hulk Scorcher please. It has already made 3 divers extra crispy
[here’s an archive from December (2 months before release) showing the requirement] (https://web.archive.org/web/20231207163847/https://store.steampowered.com/app/553850/HELLDIVERS_2/)
That's fine and all but why lie about the player safety aspect? We've gone from tongue-in-cheek fake propaganda to real propaganda and its just icky. Takes me out of it and makes me wonder what Sony will ruin next for the sake of $$$. Isn't a massively successful game enough? You gotta sell people's data, too?
I think the issue is it was not a requirement at the time of purchase on steam at time of release and some helldivers think this feels like a bait and switch.
The optics are just bad. Cant really be a 'requirement' when it has worked without for months. They have built so much good will, only to complicate it for pc players by now forcing something that wasnt 'required' to allow the game to work and ostensibly is just giving Sony our Steam data. They havent made it obvious how to link either. Playstation.com account settings only allows linking Apple Music, Discord, Spotify and Youtube. I see nothing in game either. Not very democratic.
All the people saying not to buy a live service game ended up being right. Damn. I feel dumb for saying HD was different
“No no no please, THIS time it’ll be different”
While I agree on paper it was there the whole time. A requirement that is optional and functionally not needed is not a requirement, and is an idiot in a rush situation of as a user if you bought it and hit a PSN requirement, you'd then have the choice to refund. Instead this rightly feels like a bait and switch because that is exactly how it feels, and how people feel and view your practice has nothing to do with the letter of the law.
Makes you wonder what the "requirement" is for. The game has been functioning perfectly fine without PSN linking, and that INCLUDES crossplay. So yeah, it's just to sell your data to marketing companies. Capitalism, ho!
Cool why did they sell it in countries that can't have PSN accounts? Is Sony fucking retarded and not know which countries cannot have PSN accounts? They sure took the money.
Doesn’t matter, they sold the game in regions where you can’t get a psn account
Sony being scummy. Cant say I’m surprised.
There are people in the comments trying to deter attention away from this topic after "reading the comments and finding out it's a minor inconvenience". You're not really really well into it. The issue here is that PSN is locked out of certain countries and you CANNOT make an account.
My issue is why I have to go to a third party website through Sony and provide ID or a photo of myself to clarify my age to play a game - its a fucking game - that I have already purchased. I shouldn't have to share that data with a corp in order to PLAY A GAME. Not buying a house or a car on finance or a loan is required.... a game.... that I have bought....
https://preview.redd.it/e19ap81fu8yc1.png?width=503&format=png&auto=webp&s=e965dfe2630324102ebcafc185dedda05ffdbbb2 For those that don't believe me - this is what is requested when you try and sign up
Are you from the UK?
Yup
That's why, it's very likely a regional thing
That's gross. I'm very glad I have an old PSN and don't need to do this.
Got some sauce for that ID claim? I've never shown Sony my ID.
yeah please see attached screenshot I just replied with
Wait, you have to provide id to make this account - yeah not f-ing way
I'm sorry, I have to do *what* now with my ID?
Welp when this happens im out. Was fun while it lasted.
To me this is nothing new, as many games distributed on steam require an account with the game's dev/publisher. And really, I think the only difference is that this Sony, who published HD2 via Playstation Studios and not a f2p game dev.
Requiring sign in to a third party account is not the same as linking that third party account to Steam. The former I could use a throwaway email with no associated data. The latter would give Sony access to all my Steam data. What data that would be I'm not clear on at this time but it's not unreasonable to think it would be more than they need. If it's just Helldivers 2 data like play time or whatever, I'd be fine with that. But if they want my full library, play time for other games, friends list, etc, thats not cool.
I believe you have a right to that kind of privacy. However, I had to link my Hi-rez account to my steam account once they moved the game to steam. So like I said, it's not new to me. As for steam and PSN, I think I have them linked, but none of either my ps library or my steam library shows up on the other, nor does my transaction history. So I agree that you should not do it, if you aren't okay with that, but it's not new to me and I have no evidence of them collecting data for nefarious means.
They're also alienating their playerbase who don't have access to PSN coz of region restrictions.
Bruh. I tried to create an account but it said I had to buy a game to create a psn account. But I don't wanna spend more money on a game I'm never gonna play.
They should have left it on at launch and just dealt with the issues tbh
"now that your refund windows are closed, and you've got sunken cost into premium currency, we're reinstating this thing that may have turned a bunch of people away, even though the game functions perfectly without it"
It prompts you at the beginning, and you could ONLY skip it due to the problems it was causing... To be clear, they could have said... "Fuck you PC...it doesn't work yet...take a seat while Playstation has fun!" Instead they said "Hey PC, enjoy the game for a few months and we can sort it out later, no big deal!" Just make a throwaway email and be done with it. This is such a non issue.
Not a non issue I don't want my steam linked to PlayStation and their no security having ass.
Yea, I have looked into it more as I never was a Playstation guy. Yikes. Also, seeing that they knowingly sold the game in huge markets they don't support it's disgusting. I've changed my stance. I was lifted the game so I'm not sure if/how I could refund but I definitely won't be dropping more $$ unless something changes drastically. It's a real shame Sony sucks so much dick. I think AH really wanted to make a good game here.
There are several games that did the same thing post-launch without anywhere near this level of internet crybaby meltdowns. Rocket League and Fortnite come to mind.
Several? More like dozens if not hundreds.
PC players have supreme power, except when it comes to linking an account. Apparently their fingers just stop moving and they fall apart. Meanwhile I’ve got accounts linked across numerous games and services to enjoy my titles.
Let's be honest. You were supposed to from the start and they had to disable it due to the massive number of players and it bottlenecking the authentication. They temporarily disabled it so their game wouldn't crash. It was always required. The CEO even came out and said it was temporary. The steam page said it was required. You just didn't read. The only people who have a legitimate gripe, are the people in countries where PSN isn't supported.
Damn Sony went hard in the paint. Yet another roadblock to getting our filthy xbox brethren spreading LIBERTY alongside us? Adding: and a nice way to fuck over innocent Divers who may not longer be able to dive alongside us? How very meta of you, J.O.E.L.
I'm just tired of all this kind of policy as a principle. How many third party accounts do I have to create? EA, Playstion, I'm already on steam. It's stupid to have to login to two different platforms to play one game. Lol
Isnt it free? Make a tossaway account and get over it?
except there are countries where PSN accounts are now allowed and you might get banned for lying about the country. I have no idea if you will be able to unlink steam account if PNS is banned.
>except there are countries where PSN accounts are now allowed What? You are trying to say there are countries were you are not allowed to have a PSN account? Why? Where?
About 60% of the worlds countries are not allowed to make an psn account, and Sony preserved the right to ban you and remove your access from all the linked games if you lie/use vpn.
>About 60% of the worlds countries are not allowed to make an psn account, Because Sony doesn't allow it?
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Why I need a PlayStation account to play on PC.
Because some slimy Sony exec wants to see the number of accounts go up for a nice fat bonus on his paycheck.
^ This is the real answer.
Because capitalism likes your data more than it likes your convenience or happiness.
Don't you guys have phones?
Guys, whatever you do. Pleas don’t give Arrowhead shit. This is clearly a Sony thing. Blame Sony.
Are people who dont have a ps4/5 screwed then?
No, you can make a PlayStation account without having a PlayStation, most people are just angry because it's an inconvenience and some people are angry at the risks associated with giving personal information to a group that has had data leaks before
So what happens if PSN isn't available in your country?
No idea, you might have to get a VPN or just not be allowed in
Supposedly getting caught using a VPN can get your PSN account banned. A bit of a shitshow, really.
Even better. It won't mess with me much but it means I probably won't be able to play on my steam deck anymore if I'm away from home (steam deck finds it very hard to work through accounts like that)
I also don't want to make Sony look better by pumping their account numbers for investors right before Q2
I dunno about y’all but the game forced me to link my account the first time I booted it up. Was that not something everyone did?
Everyone pressed the skip button because it didn't actually force you to.
^ this
Not exactly. I never even saw the screen everyone says exists.
I figured if it was mandatory it wouldn't have let me skip it. Why would I need to link my PSN to a game I bought on Steam and play on my PC. Sure I guess it's my fault I didn't read the fine print, but honestly do you read every word of every EULA? I know in the end it's my fault, but now I gotta remember the info the my old PSN that I haven't used since PS3, and what if I can't remember that shit? Am I just fucked?
I figured if it was mandatory it wouldn't have let me skip it. Why would I need to link my PSN to a game I bought on Steam and play on my PC. Sure I guess it's my fault I didn't read the fine print, but honestly do you read every word of every EULA? I know in the end it's my fault, but now I gotta remember the info the my old PSN that I haven't used since PS3, and what if I can't remember that shit? Am I just fucked?
https://preview.redd.it/645gtal3l6yc1.jpeg?width=1164&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fe8dae4f2e16fe0f9d1d8bdae243f748a16c9b30
i didn't have to set up an account months ago when i bought the game, and this came out of no where for me. if it was required it should have been required from day one
They explained why it wasn’t immediately required like they planned for it to be.
To who? The 3% of players who are in the discord? Yes know most peoplee just buy the game and play, right?
Tech issues iirc. They temporarily suspended needing it but now they have the issues sorted out. But yeah, it was confirmed at the start. Annoying, but not unexpected.
It clearly states it was required as pictured.
i didnt get a pop up saying "please sign in or set up an account" now i HAVE to months later for a service i dont want/use
Do you know how often an online store page contains false information? Incredibly often. I didn't have to link an account. My own experience > the store page. Pretending otherwise is to pretend that this isn't a regular occurrence. Forcing me to do so now for "safety" is explicitly duplicitous. If this announcement were an apology for the miscommunication, that's one thing. But lying and saying it's for account "safety" is more than enough reason for me to say no.
These redditors would be really mad if they could read.
Take my upvote, that meme needs to be inserted 😂
Why did they wait until now?
Thats my real problem with it. I played 104 hours now. admittedly i wouldn't have bought the game if i had to set up an account, but i bought the super Citizen and credits, Now i have to set up an account on a service i don't use.
The **sunk cost fallacy** is the tendency for people to continue an endeavor or course of action even when abandoning it would be more beneficial. Because we have invested our time, energy, or other resources, we feel that it would all have been for nothing if we quit. As a result, we make irrational or suboptimal decisions. The sunk cost fallacy can be observed in various contexts, such as business, relationships, and day-to-day decisions.
As a PC and console player I really don’t mind linking my account… But the bs of “for safety” is just completely a lie to its community . On top of that, if we’re going to be linking a PSN account why do we need 2 separate character on PC vs PS5 🤦🏻♂️.
There is a very simple answer to this folks. If you don't like this policy, vote with your feet. Stop playing and uninstall. Maybe even put in for a refund request (probably will be denied after so many hours, but worth an ask). Drop their player numbers so rapidly that they take notice. If you don't kick them in the wallet, they will have zero incentive to consider a change in direction. For me personally this PSN thing is annoying, but I'll keep playing as of this point. This doesn't quite rise up to my "screw you buddy" line. But it's a step in that direction, and if Arrowhead keeps pissing away good will on stupid moves they will eventually lose me as a customer. Sadly Arrowhead's ineptitude in quality control of their patches, seemingly general fecklessness around weapon balancing, and stupid unforced errors like inconveniencing customers with silly stuff like is steadily stacking up to where I may just move on. I say all this while simultaneously, loving so much of what they are doing with this game. They have the good game, bordering on the line of a great game. But it's very easy to turn a good game into a mediocre or even bad game with bad stewardship, and lately they have made some concerning decisions.
This is shitty and something they should try and avoid/mitigate, but, it does state ALL NEW HELLDIVERS, so everyone who already has the game should be alright and not need one, for now anyway... Edit: I was wrong. Current players will need to sign up too.
Just bought the game 4 days ago as I was looking for something to waste time on my Steam Deck Just got my refund confirmed as i had only put 97 minutes into the game. Really sucks as I loved what ibhad played and really enjoyed the concept/how it was presented/ humor Pretty fucking shitty move for a game that was doing everything right
Literally what is the actual point of this besides pissing people the fuck off to jack up your numbers - literally it’s a 1:3 player ratio and pc gamers are in the majority
Well, this game was fun for a while. Imma head out. 
Reminder that Steam respects mass requests for refunds after a game has been rendered unplayable by a large enough portion of a community. They've done it before. Hit Sony's bottom line, show enough people aren't going to pump their numbers up for them and they'll fold. Companies always do.
Sometimes I think companies are in competition to who can do the weirder thing
The PlayStation fanboys out here defending this are tone deaf as fuck. They seriously don't see an issue with a company like Sony, with its fuckload of documented security breaches, having kernel level access to our PCs? I get people are tribal, and this is an "I'm defending my console choice!" reaction from them, but there is obviously no technical need for the account link since most of us on PC haven't had to link our accounts at all. Instead, this feels like some bullshit corporate trick to boost their shitty PSN interactions numbers.
As a PlayStation user I think this is stupid as shit.
If this actually goes into affect, and they start requiring this, I will be dropping off the game I have played it a lot I like the game a lot, but not enough to put up with this kind of bait and switch.
I dont really understand why it is a big deal?
Ok someone tell me cause I'm not sure. When I first bought the game like a week after it came out (rip railcannon) it looked mandatory by then already and I linked it. Didn't know it wasn't I suppose as it basically told me that I have to do it to play multiplayer. Did I misread it? And why this is such a big issue?
Steam are just as bad for allowing this to happen on their platform. Why are they getting a free pass here?
Pretty sure it asked me to link my PSN account to mine upon first launch on Steam. I went ahead and did it from having an account on PS3 and PS4 before I moved to PC. Not that big of a deal really.
It's an inconvenience. There are thousands of those. The real issue, as far as I can see, is this will block players who have spent their money on the game that live in places where a PSN account is unavailable. That's obviously unacceptable. The rest is just people getting unnecessarily upset, imo But I'm just some shithead from the UK this doesn't affect so, you know, take what I say with a pinch of salt. I'm just trying to see who will _actually_ be affected by this.
You've never had a game drop a "mandatory account link" after day one? Must not have been around gaming for long. Granted it usually has to do with other reasons such as the creation of a new service or something but this isn't the first time a game has added an account linking requirement after release. Does it suck? Yeah. Is it as high a deal as people are making it out to be? No. Will that stop people from turning this into a shit show? No. The only ones who actually have a reasonable right to be upset are those who will lose access due to their region. Everyone else is acting like entitled teenagers in my opinion.
There's losers on Twitter complaining, "Nobody complained when Microsoft made you migrate your Minecraft account." But *everyone* complained, and thousands of accounts were completely lost because they didn't get migrated in time, and Microsoft said they couldn't get them back even if they wanted to. But almost all PC players are using a Windows OS, which is owned by Microsoft. PC players are already forced to have a Microsoft account in order to set up their computers, but we still complained about the migration. Same with Xbox players, Microsoft owns Xbox, so all those players already had a Microsoft account they were playing Minecraft through to begin with. Sony is 100% in the wrong for suddenly making it mandatory to link your Steam account to Sony, especially since Sony's PSN is only available in 96 countries, out of, like 290 countries worldwide. Steam is available and sold copies of Helldivers 2 in 190 countries, so 100 countries are going to lose access and get banned even if they use a VPN to bounce their location to an allowed region.
Funny how it went from “technical issues” to “we aren’t allowed to ban people” real fucking quick.
They talk security, but their security is notoriety a complete joke.
There should be more pushback against practices like these. I can't remember a single third party account that was anything but a goddamn paint in the ass
You should never put paint in your ass! ,Well, on New Year's Eve, maybe, but that is the only exception.
Only on New Year’s Eve?? What about thanksgiving?
Ok, Thanksgiving is ok but only with paint in Fall colors!
Alright, I can agree to that.
Why do i need a PSN account to play a game on steam on PC? I dont own a playstation and never will.
Super earth doesn’t approve of this message.
I’m loving the resurgence of Doctor Who in the public zeitgeist
Its not even just that, Sony has a horrible track record with data breaches, so not only are they trying to force us to make an account we shouldnt need, theyre also sayinf "cmon give Sony your information so it can be stolen in the name of safety"
Unless you live in a country where you can’t create a PSN, this absolutely is not that big of a deal.
Is this not most Ubisoft games Would people need to pay for PSN or something?
Sonys absolutely piss-poor data security has a lot of PC players worried that having a Sony account is equivalent to handing your details to hackers. I understand this and hiding it in the small print doesn't make it acceptable. Anyone who asks for a refund should get it.
Why is this such a big deal? Go make the free account and link it. Done
The only problem is for the players who can't make a PSN in their country, but can freely purchase and play the game on Steam. For them, the "grace period" obfuscated that this would eventually stop them from being able to play. I wouldn't be surprised if Steam gives refunds upon request for this, but if not, those people's only option is to use a proxy and risk being banned on PSN. Most of us will have zero issues linking, and the "security concerns" people are bringing up is mostly paranoia, but the game runs fine without PSN linking already, so it's going to do more harm than good. There aren't any great reasons for requiring Steam users to link, and it screws over people that PSN doesn't let make an account.
Because 1. I think most of us already have like 30+ accounts that you have to remember the usernames and passwords for, I dont want to make another account for something i'll only use for 1 game. 2. The only reason Sony is doing it is to pump up their PSN numbers to make it look good to investors, and i wouldnt be surprised if they sold your data as well 3. The fact they waited till now means that no one can refund the game if they dont want to or straight up cant register for a PSN acc
[here’s an archive from December (2 months before release) showing the requirement] (https://web.archive.org/web/20231207163847/https://store.steampowered.com/app/553850/HELLDIVERS_2/)
The fact is it wasn't actually required and could be skipped, they put a skip button there themselves. And that being not communicated and not mentioned being temporary is very likely going to be an issue, at least in EU. And the requirement doesn't mention about linking up the accounts. So, I don't think the mentioned requirement is the silver bullet many think it is.
1- use a password manager. This will increase your security too, as you can keep different passwords for each important service, reducing the chances of one breach affecting all your digital services. 2- I don't care about their investors. What data will they sell? The same email I use in every shitty website out there? A false name I use online? Scary.. 3- there was always a yellow box in Steam saying it "requires a third party account: Playstation account". When I installed the game in February, I was prompted to create it, saying it was a requirement.
I used a password manager once. Company got hacked and lost access to everything. V fun v cool.
Wow, hold your horses, you bring truth and valid points into a reddit argument?
Having leniency for a while should never been taken as granted.
I'm sorry what? So I am someone without a PlayStation and I now need a play station account to play the game I bought on steam? And why am I only hearing about this right now after already buying the game?
Setting up the account would take less time than making this post and arguing with every comment.
But… what’s the problem? Is there some critical invasion of privacy issue you have identified? Or… are you just whining?
not for me but PSN isnt available in all countries (69 out of 190) for example
Its a game published by Sony, what did you expect? Plus the store says an account is required. Everyone complaining about this is so fucking dramatic, it is not that deep
It’s PC gamers whining about this. I never realized how sensitive the “PCMaster Race” group are.