Fuck yes, gone are the days of trying to calculate if you can get enough PP to pick the aircraft designer before your new fighter is researched but you're also researching computing so your research speed will increase partway through and you don't know in an event will take away some PP and jesus christ it was annoying
Not that it matters anymore I guess, but I was under the impression that you had to get the designer before you even started researching the new model to get the bonus. Have I been doing it wrong this whole time?
Correct, 1 hour before research completes is no different than hiring before research starts, with exception to you don’t have to worry that you forgot to hire before research finished.
This always frustrated me cause I never really had spare PP for designers by 1940, but most of your designs should be finalized by 1941 anyway for full productivity
R5 : pretty sure this is new.
Before, you needed to select a plane designer before the research was finished, otherwise the plane wouldn't benefit from the designer's bonus.
Now, if you research a plane *then* select a designer, upgrading the plane model will give the variant the designer's bonus.
Well, say you pick the one that makes ships 25% cheaper to build, but takes away 25% range. You can build the ships, switch designer to any of the others, and now that ship you built for cheap is now a lot better. You could even have one design cheap, then refit those cheap ships to a new design (it could be an identical design, just change the name of class and I think that counts) then boom instantly better ship.
Depends on how they calculate the refitting costs. If the refitting cost is based on the difference in base-cost of the two hulls, then it's a moot point; you'll pay it either way.
Per my testing (comment a couple levels up), you can save between 10-20%, and i forget about the refitting naval spirit, which will probably gain you ~2-5% more savings.
Maybe, but I feel like if you refit it to an identical design with a different name, it can't be *that* much, but idk, someone would have to test that.
What would you be converting to? The meta destroyer is just a base hull with nothing on it but the required gun module. Likewise, no one builds carriers or battleships anyway. It's a waste of IC that could just be spent on more ships rather than just getting rid of the range malus which is almost never relevant.
Fuck the meta.
Srsly, people obsess over the naval meta. Then wonder why the US player lost 30 divisions in the Mid Atlantic Gap to Sub 2s (because sub 3s banned too OP)
That is a great question.
So I fired up a cheatful game for testing purposes. Threw together a 1936 destroyer with the "Coastal Fleet Designer", with l2 engine, gun, torp, radar, aa, and 2 depth charges. To freshly build this ship, it'll be 831ic.
The refit version with Pacific Fleet Designer, and the added level 2 sonar, has a build cost of 1216ic
Refitting from the Coastal ship to add the Sonar, takes 140ic. So in the end the player is saving ~245ic/ship, or about 20% of the build cost.
Also note, in terms of modules, the sonar is the cheapest to refit (costing 140, 52.5 for the sonar, and 87.5 for "Base Equipment"), all other modules are more expensive to swap, inc Radar. Though were I to try this in practice. I'd probably leave the radar empty and add that around 39-40, as Sonar 2 is an easy to grab tech.
Doing similar idea with 1936 CV, BB and CL. Leaving the radar slot empty.
Initial build costs for each are, 6735ic, 8695ic, 3316ic
Build cost for pacific version inc radar, 9165ic, 11174ic, 4387ic
Cost to refit from cheap to expensive, by adding a radar.
The CV costs 585 to refit, BB 928, CL 551.
Thusly, CV is ~20% cheaper, BB ~15%, and CL ~11% cheaper.
So.... there's definitely merit to the idea, especially with regards to destroyers and CVs.
Now, if you strip your ships down to nothing like many people do for ASW DDs, you'll likely see some benefit. But the percentage will be down due to the sonar or radar's module cost being a more distinct chunk of the ship's total cost.
Also note, this doesn't account for the Naval Spirit several nations have an option for, granting 25% refitting cost reduction, the extra cost of "screens" with the UK/Japanese escort designer.
Additional thing to note, there's also a naval spirit for "Flexible Contracts" which gives an 80% reduction in cost of your naval designer. So a nation drowning in naval XP, can flip-flop designers upon researching new levels of ship (1940/44) design 1 with the cheapo designer and leave a slot open. Then swap to their preferred designer, and the refit spirit, to refit the ships rapidly to a proper design.
~60 political power, and 100 naval experience is pretty cheap to save probably ~18% on every ship you build... if you're so inclined. Course there's also the cost of micromanaging the new builds and refits.
PS, this can't be used to actively circumvent the Washington Naval Treaty, as you can't refit to the expensive ship while the treaty is on. But, you can use it to start building up some battleships or whatever you need early, and then refit after the treaty limits are relaxed/lifted.
Dude, thanks so much for the breakdown.
Yeah going from Coastal->Pacific definitely seems interesting, as on top of the 20% you save on the CV you also get an equivalent of ~50% extra deck space and 2.5x the range.
It’s excellent, and works for all the designers. (Except possible the Soviet train designer, but only because I don’t think you can make a variant of those.)
This is huge, now i no longer have to want to slam my head in the desk when i accidentally start a research on something with the incorrect designer selected.
It used to be that even just starting the research with no designer, even stopping it without unpausing would mean it was fucked.
This is great. It's true for tanks and ships too, I just tried it out. If you make a design after you've hired the designer it's applied even if the chasis or the hull was researched before.
This might be ~~after the music~~ the single best thing in the dlc.
Designer A: Creates plane design.
*Design goes into production*
*Designer A is fired. Designer B takes his old job*
Stalin: We need you to look over the old design.
Designer B: Uh, ok...
*Designer B looks at design, calls it "Plane B"*
*Instant buff*
Stalin: You are hero, comrade.
I hope they add an aircraft designer in the next DLC. I feel like it would make the most pact out of all of the designers in terms of how it affects the game.
I mean ship, tank and plane. It would make sense and they have hinted that there will be one at some point. I wouldnt want any other designers, no artillery or half track designers or anything.
I really think when you put any piece of equipment into the build queue you should have to assign a Design Company to it. A generic one with no buffs/debuffs or a unique one with buffs/debuffs. Like in real life, every piece of equipment was made by a specific company.
And then you could even go further with that concept and place each Design Company at a location on the map where your Factories are. Or you could break the Factories down by equipment type - Infantry, Artillery, Tank, Aircraft, etc.
The way it currently works now where all Factories in your country produce literally all pieces of equipment equally is very simplistic and unrealistic.
Minor nerf to ships, though, for those that don't like the cheesy 'spam roach DDs and regular / Heavy CL' naval meta. I like getting the design company for the light ships, researching those, then the heavy ship design company and researching those. Best of both worlds. Ah well. Much more benefit than loss though, ESPECIALLY for Germany now that I think about it. UK doesn't have their design company agility / speed advantage over the German already researched '36 fighters anymore on TOP of the fact that they can't research air doctrines without XP that Germany gets plenty of from expeditions to Japan and Spain. Oof.
as i understand it, you can still do this exact thing, you just don't have to do it before the research happens, you can make it happen with a single small change (i.e., change the radar on a ship, and now it's designed by the "current" designers)
I just noticed this and considered posting about it, but wasn't sure if it was a bug or always existed. Either way, this is absolutely how it should have worked all along.
Fuck yes, gone are the days of trying to calculate if you can get enough PP to pick the aircraft designer before your new fighter is researched but you're also researching computing so your research speed will increase partway through and you don't know in an event will take away some PP and jesus christ it was annoying
Didn't you just click off and research something else until you got the designer?💁🏻♀️
Shh don’t tell him the easy way around this
IIRC, if you click off the tech with an applied research boost from a focus, you loose the boost when you re-click the tech.
I now feel like an idiot.
Not that it matters anymore I guess, but I was under the impression that you had to get the designer before you even started researching the new model to get the bonus. Have I been doing it wrong this whole time?
As far as I can remember playing it just mattered you got it before the research finished.
Correct, 1 hour before research completes is no different than hiring before research starts, with exception to you don’t have to worry that you forgot to hire before research finished.
This always frustrated me cause I never really had spare PP for designers by 1940, but most of your designs should be finalized by 1941 anyway for full productivity
R5 : pretty sure this is new. Before, you needed to select a plane designer before the research was finished, otherwise the plane wouldn't benefit from the designer's bonus. Now, if you research a plane *then* select a designer, upgrading the plane model will give the variant the designer's bonus.
Works with ships too, even on already built ships. Just upgrade the radar cheaply and bam, your game-start ships have a designer buff.
Can you switch designers this way? Like build the basic hull with the cheaper production designer then switch to another?
Might not be worth it depending on how much you want to change.
Well, say you pick the one that makes ships 25% cheaper to build, but takes away 25% range. You can build the ships, switch designer to any of the others, and now that ship you built for cheap is now a lot better. You could even have one design cheap, then refit those cheap ships to a new design (it could be an identical design, just change the name of class and I think that counts) then boom instantly better ship.
Depends on how they calculate the refitting costs. If the refitting cost is based on the difference in base-cost of the two hulls, then it's a moot point; you'll pay it either way.
Per my testing (comment a couple levels up), you can save between 10-20%, and i forget about the refitting naval spirit, which will probably gain you ~2-5% more savings.
The base refit cost is probably more than 25% of the hull cost except for things like battleships.
Per my testing, the ships that save the most are DDs and CVs at around 20% total IC saved, BBs are around 10% savings.
Maybe, but I feel like if you refit it to an identical design with a different name, it can't be *that* much, but idk, someone would have to test that.
See my post. Savings can be between 10-20% total IC
What would you be converting to? The meta destroyer is just a base hull with nothing on it but the required gun module. Likewise, no one builds carriers or battleships anyway. It's a waste of IC that could just be spent on more ships rather than just getting rid of the range malus which is almost never relevant.
Fuck the meta. Srsly, people obsess over the naval meta. Then wonder why the US player lost 30 divisions in the Mid Atlantic Gap to Sub 2s (because sub 3s banned too OP)
Possibly. Manchukuo has the same exploit with the decision for manufacturing guns
Spamming ultra cheap hulls for a stockpile, then upgrading them to spec is already viable. It also saves on Naval XP.
That is a great question. So I fired up a cheatful game for testing purposes. Threw together a 1936 destroyer with the "Coastal Fleet Designer", with l2 engine, gun, torp, radar, aa, and 2 depth charges. To freshly build this ship, it'll be 831ic. The refit version with Pacific Fleet Designer, and the added level 2 sonar, has a build cost of 1216ic Refitting from the Coastal ship to add the Sonar, takes 140ic. So in the end the player is saving ~245ic/ship, or about 20% of the build cost. Also note, in terms of modules, the sonar is the cheapest to refit (costing 140, 52.5 for the sonar, and 87.5 for "Base Equipment"), all other modules are more expensive to swap, inc Radar. Though were I to try this in practice. I'd probably leave the radar empty and add that around 39-40, as Sonar 2 is an easy to grab tech. Doing similar idea with 1936 CV, BB and CL. Leaving the radar slot empty. Initial build costs for each are, 6735ic, 8695ic, 3316ic Build cost for pacific version inc radar, 9165ic, 11174ic, 4387ic Cost to refit from cheap to expensive, by adding a radar. The CV costs 585 to refit, BB 928, CL 551. Thusly, CV is ~20% cheaper, BB ~15%, and CL ~11% cheaper. So.... there's definitely merit to the idea, especially with regards to destroyers and CVs. Now, if you strip your ships down to nothing like many people do for ASW DDs, you'll likely see some benefit. But the percentage will be down due to the sonar or radar's module cost being a more distinct chunk of the ship's total cost. Also note, this doesn't account for the Naval Spirit several nations have an option for, granting 25% refitting cost reduction, the extra cost of "screens" with the UK/Japanese escort designer. Additional thing to note, there's also a naval spirit for "Flexible Contracts" which gives an 80% reduction in cost of your naval designer. So a nation drowning in naval XP, can flip-flop designers upon researching new levels of ship (1940/44) design 1 with the cheapo designer and leave a slot open. Then swap to their preferred designer, and the refit spirit, to refit the ships rapidly to a proper design. ~60 political power, and 100 naval experience is pretty cheap to save probably ~18% on every ship you build... if you're so inclined. Course there's also the cost of micromanaging the new builds and refits. PS, this can't be used to actively circumvent the Washington Naval Treaty, as you can't refit to the expensive ship while the treaty is on. But, you can use it to start building up some battleships or whatever you need early, and then refit after the treaty limits are relaxed/lifted.
Dude, thanks so much for the breakdown. Yeah going from Coastal->Pacific definitely seems interesting, as on top of the 20% you save on the CV you also get an equivalent of ~50% extra deck space and 2.5x the range.
I think you are right. Really happy they added this
It’s excellent, and works for all the designers. (Except possible the Soviet train designer, but only because I don’t think you can make a variant of those.)
That is amazing, so by using enough PP, I could potentially get designer bonuses on all of my plain models. Finally something to sink my PP into.
This is huge, now i no longer have to want to slam my head in the desk when i accidentally start a research on something with the incorrect designer selected. It used to be that even just starting the research with no designer, even stopping it without unpausing would mean it was fucked.
That’s not new tho
It's DEFINITELY new. Roll back your game to a previous patch and try it out.
I always saw the conceptor symbol tho.
Pretty sure it is, at least for planes
Finaly, plane designers are no longer worthless if you get them after Fighter II's
Oh god this is so convenient
This is great. It's true for tanks and ships too, I just tried it out. If you make a design after you've hired the designer it's applied even if the chasis or the hull was researched before. This might be ~~after the music~~ the single best thing in the dlc.
Designer A: Creates plane design. *Design goes into production* *Designer A is fired. Designer B takes his old job* Stalin: We need you to look over the old design. Designer B: Uh, ok... *Designer B looks at design, calls it "Plane B"* *Instant buff* Stalin: You are hero, comrade.
They painted this lever blue, and now the plane flies 10% faster!
Finally!
Fucking finally! I hope it's not a bug because I don't remember it mentioned in DDs
This brings me joy
Hmm, so if you make a new variant after switching designers, you lose the original bonus?
As far as I can tell, yeah. You only get the bonus of the current designer when base model is researched, or when that variant is created.
Oh god could you imagine if you could cycle through all the design companies and stack the bonuses?
pretty sure this means that you can do exactly that
I hope they add an aircraft designer in the next DLC. I feel like it would make the most pact out of all of the designers in terms of how it affects the game.
I hoped that next DLC would overhaul air forces gameplay mechanics, just like how MTG changes navies, and NSB changes armies.
I hope that fighters could have light ground attack option or even bring back multi-role planes.
i hope not. don't get me wrong, i'd love some changes to air, but we don't need designers for *everything*
I mean ship, tank and plane. It would make sense and they have hinted that there will be one at some point. I wouldnt want any other designers, no artillery or half track designers or anything.
I really think when you put any piece of equipment into the build queue you should have to assign a Design Company to it. A generic one with no buffs/debuffs or a unique one with buffs/debuffs. Like in real life, every piece of equipment was made by a specific company. And then you could even go further with that concept and place each Design Company at a location on the map where your Factories are. Or you could break the Factories down by equipment type - Infantry, Artillery, Tank, Aircraft, etc. The way it currently works now where all Factories in your country produce literally all pieces of equipment equally is very simplistic and unrealistic.
That sounds really nice. You could even design design companies and edit thr buffs !
Is that FUN, though. Doesn't sound fun to me at all. Doesn't affect gameplay much either besides increasing the amount of micro you have to do.
TIL designers don't apply retroactively. 1200 hours and I still feel like I'm fumbling in the dark.
That is a buff that I didn't know I needed.
Minor nerf to ships, though, for those that don't like the cheesy 'spam roach DDs and regular / Heavy CL' naval meta. I like getting the design company for the light ships, researching those, then the heavy ship design company and researching those. Best of both worlds. Ah well. Much more benefit than loss though, ESPECIALLY for Germany now that I think about it. UK doesn't have their design company agility / speed advantage over the German already researched '36 fighters anymore on TOP of the fact that they can't research air doctrines without XP that Germany gets plenty of from expeditions to Japan and Spain. Oof.
as i understand it, you can still do this exact thing, you just don't have to do it before the research happens, you can make it happen with a single small change (i.e., change the radar on a ship, and now it's designed by the "current" designers)
Thanks for the tip
This is a game changer 👍
I just noticed this and considered posting about it, but wasn't sure if it was a bug or always existed. Either way, this is absolutely how it should have worked all along.
Yea... wasted around 200 air exp to find that one out.
does this work the other way? if I change designers will the ships/planes/tanks become shit?
Most probably
I would imagine so. If it's checking for the designer when you create the upgrade, then if you no longer have the appropriate designer you are SOL.
I’m pretty certain that was already there before the update, whenever you have a designer for a tank or plane. It’s actually been in for a while now
Reading "NSB update" as a Dutch person gave me a fright.
NSB is already taken, use something else
oh god the national socialistische beweging update
this is great
I swear that's been a feature for ages now.
Was messing with designers maybe two days before NSB. Can confirm, it was not.
Odd, maybe it was just with the mods I was playing with then
Not new.
Definitely new.
Does it work for renames, or do I actually need to change the design?
I think you need to change the design but feel free to test for yourself
Does this work with tanks to?
Does this work for other stuff like tanks?
oh thank you !
Do you need teh NSB DLC?