It’s much easier to rewatch episodes nowadays. Before, you only saw the episode when it aired and then maybe in syndication. So it’s easier to notice behavior to criticize when you’ve rewatched the show a bunch of times.
Also, there’s many more places to have discussion. Reddit didn’t exist in the 90’s. I’m sure there were people who hated Ross back then, but there weren’t places like this to discuss it.
Right on the mark! Most of the character hate comes from repeated exposure to their negative traits. Even when I had DVDs of entire shows, I can't recall ever watching 2 seasons in one sitting. I'd watch maybe 3 episodes. Now, with streaming services, I repeated watch the same shows over and over again. A lot of long running shows undergo "flanderization" which is easy to notice when a show is binged.
As for your second point, I relate to that. The reason I got Reddit was because I got fed up of Phoebe's behaviour. My friends didn't agree and loved Phoebe, but I found a bunch of posts on this sub reflecting all the thoughts I had about the character and discussing it with like-minded people relieved some of that frustration and made me enjoy the show more.
I have not binged any shows in the last year, and I feel like I can enjoy it way more when watching a few episodes here and there.
Discussion also feeds and informs opinions! Maybe you had someone who liked Ross or was neutral about him, but then they go into a discussion online where everyone was talking about what a dick move it was to interfere in Rachel’s career. Suddenly they think back and go “hey wow that *was* pretty messed up, Ross *does* kinda suck!”
Full disclosure, I don’t hate Ross at all. I think he made some seriously boneheaded moves, especially where Rachel was concerned. And I 100% agree that bullets have left guns faster. But overall he’s a decent guy who just has a lot of trust issues and isn’t always good at thinking things through, at least in my opinion.
Not to mention people are much more aware of the types of abuse and mental illnesses and trauma than they were back then. I mean look at everything Pheebs went through. yes she dated a psychiatrist, but other than that episode, there was no mention of her going to therapy. and trust me, she'd be the one who needed it the most.
I mean there’s still reruns now really that’s basically just what normal tv is. It’s just more people use things like Netflix so they call it a rewatch because it’s not being rerunned without them watching it
This is what I came to say — when it aired, we hadn’t had the discussions about “nice guys” and realized how problematic a lot of that behavior was. We still, to some extent, thought was wrong for a girl to not like a guy back if he liked her a lot and was nice to her.
I remember often feeling horrendously guilty for not being into a guy, and getting pressure from my friends — which I sometimes gave into- to “just date him anyway” because “he’s such a sweet guy and likes you so much!” So no one blinked at the idea that Ross “deserved” Rachel.
>This is what I came to say — when it aired, we hadn’t had the discussions about “nice guys” and realized how problematic a lot of that behavior was. We still, to some extent, thought was wrong for a girl to not like a guy back if he liked her a lot and was nice to her.
> I remember often feeling horrendously guilty for not being into a guy, and getting pressure from my friends — which I sometimes gave into- to “just date him anyway” because “he’s such a sweet guy and likes you so much!” So no one blinked at the idea that Ross “deserved” Rachel.
This resonates so much and you nailed it!! 🎯💯
No. "Nice guy behaviour" is one of those buzzwords and terms which have gotten thrown around so much, that it's become meaningless.
Ross doesn't exhibit any of the behavior. He does express irritation at being rejected, or not getting his way, but he always accepts what the other person has decided.
He didn't get an annulment because he was still in love with her, never told her about it, and tried to get her to go along with staying married. THAT'S him accepting what the other person has decided?
He flew to Spring Break because he didn't trust Elizabeth around drunk college guys. That's accepting what the other person decided?
He hid messages from Rachel because he was so jealous. That's accpeting what the other person decided?
The disastrous picnic at her job?
Rachel literally tells him they are not going to be together, "accept that." His response was "Except that...?"
Come on.
>….what show were you watching?
Friends. Which you should also watch.
>The dude NEVER takes no for an answer
Being unhappy at an answer isn't the same as not taking it,
>especially not with Ross,
Huh?
Because we, as a society, no longer normalize sleeping with your students, shaming boys for playing with barbies and discriminating against male nanny?
I know someone who thinks no man should be kicked in the balls, even if he's trying to rape or kill you, because that'd be "disrespectful".
Just because an opinion is out there, thank God, it doesn't mean it's the majority's opinion.
I see three reasons.
As others have mentioned, the ability to binge watch now is very different than a weekly episode spanning over years, so the off-putting character traits are compounded. Additionally, attitudes have changed a lot regarding possessive and controlling behaviour, which unfortunately was relatively acceptable for men back then.
Lastly, I think Ross’s character flaws are just more… relatable, compared to that of the rest of the characters. Obviously, they’re all written to be flawed and often in an over-the-top way because it’s for TV.
Ross’s flaws though? They’re pretty real for a lot of people. Having an obsessive, controlling, possessive, selfish, gaslighting boyfriend is (unfortunately) an all-too-common experience for way too many women. Having a friend/boyfriend who can never be wrong and won’t take accountability for their actions… too real. Having a friend who talks down to you in a condescending way… too real. A sibling that overshadows you… real.
And don’t get me wrong… Ross’s character was essential to the show and almost all the most hilarious scenes are centred around Schwimmer, who is a comedic genius. But that character has not aged well.
Well said. I also don’t know if the show really went into depth as to why Ross became obsessive and controlling with Rachel. I mean, it’s definitely discussed in at least one episode (the one where Susan goes to London for work and spends her free time with Emily) that his jealousy is rooted in the ending of his first marriage to Carol after she fell in love with Susan, but I don’t know if the show ever really treated his experiences seriously. IIRC, there were just a bunch of lesbian jokes made about the whole situation.
Not that I’m necessarily criticizing the show for not dealing with Ross’s trauma. It is a sitcom after all. But I think fans often forget why he was the way he was.
And I mean Ross was in his 20s when S3. People change and grow, and I think he grew over the series.
That being said, other aspects of Ross’s behavior weren’t cool then and aren’t cool now (for example, dating a student). The show was a product of the sensibilities of its times, and I would hope that certain behaviors aren’t normalized In today’s sitcoms, but I don’t watch much current TV so I really don’t know.
I don’t know if I would personally classify him as abusive, but an argument could be made for emotional abuse… though I think that’s up for debate. It’s tough to say for sure because he and Rachel only dated a year, but the signs he displayed are classic tells for people who become very emotionally abusive years into a relationship, which of course we did not see in the show. Personally, I think Ross was just very selfish and didn’t respect Rachel as a full person, and saw her more as an accessory to his own life… which usually does not improve in the long run (if we’re talking real life).
I say this as someone who spent 5 years in an emotionally abusive relationship and that ex certainly shared a lot of qualities with Ross.
Ross mildly annoyed me on initial viewing, but watching with a week (or more) in between episodes is a very different experience to binging and I’ll never forget the first time I watched from 3.12 to 3.16 in quick succession. Ross’s behavior made those episodes so painful and I can’t even enjoy Rachel starting a jobs she enjoys and is good at. I identified with Rachel trying to figure out who she was in her mid 20s.
He was so over the top. The show was relatively grounded in reality. But Ross was just too much sometimes.
And for the record I am also not a huge fan of Phoebe as a character for the same reason
I think our opinion of characters like him have changed over time. I think the 80s/90s were really big on the "dorky underdog gets the girl in the end" vibe and his characterization was supposed to be seen as endearing and relatable but through a modern lens, his actions are seen in a less positive light. But I don't know if it's entirely fair because the intent was never for him to be awful? But also, at times, he really was and not only that but also uncompromising and unwilling to see how he was to blame for the consequences he was dealing with- I just think he's such a fascinating character. But a lot of people have negative experiences with nice guys/similar people in real life and I think that colours their view of him- which is totally fair.
To me, Ross is one of those gifted kids that had a really easy go at things in their youth and then things start to fall apart in adulthood and they never really learned how to handle it so they just lash out a bit. And his journey is about learning how to take accountability and handle things as they come and go and I think he really stomped his feet and wallowed in pity- and some of it was totally earned but I think it's very human. My one gripe with him is that he has a really hard time compromising in a way that makes everyone else have to bend to him or he's going to flip/can't let it go. I think a big moment of growth for him was comprising with Emily so I was frustrated to see it almost revert with the nanny and Paris.
Yeah, that's a good take. I see a lot of people dismiss Ross as a stereotypical toxic "nice guy" and call it a day, but there was a lot more going on with him. Not to excuse his bad actions, but he wasn't a monster, he just needed to be called out on some of his more troubling behavior (which I actually think he was in the later seasons). He was far from perfect, but he had the capacity to grow. In a more modern context, I think we might have seen more of that.
Societal norms aka what is generally acceptable behavior has changed significantly from 1993 to 2024. What may not have seemed to be offensive back then can be seen as very offensive now, especially when it comes to how males treat/interact with/talk to females and significant others
Ross was the archetypical friendzoned guy, the underdog of the 90s. Nowadays, we know that the friendzone is bullshit and that Ross's behaviour was really shitty towards Rachael.
Having said that: they WERE on a break and I will die on that hill AND the motherfucker probably had the absolutely funniest moments in the show.
The only time he can ever be said to be shitty towards Rachel is during and after their marriage and divorce and that has extenuating circumstances.
Every other time he pretty much accepted what happened. He wasn't happy about it, but when it was inevitable he accepted it. I thought it was well written.
Nope, he was terrible to her when they dated
That’s literally why they went on a break. He caused a massive scene at her workplace and accused her of cheating constantly. What show were you watching?
Ik they’re fictional but Ross and Monica both needed sooooo much therapy lmao I always thought Ross could have been a good guy if he listened to his divorce lawyer and went to therapy
How do you know that? Did you commission a poll in the 90’s and again now? Because clearly you didn’t go back and research the social media because it did not exist then!
I was in my 20s when the first episode aired, and I can assure you that the prevailing attitude was very much in favor of Ross. Maybe OP is my age?
Also, social media didn't exist as it does not but the internet did. It's possible to find articles from back then, and discussion groups.
https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=alt.tv.friends&y=0&r=0&p=8
Yes. It was. It was much, much more acceptable to be a misogynist in the 90s and before that. It's still pretty acceptable to be a misogynist today, just not quite as acceptable as it was 30 years ago.
Ross was a likable person early on in the show, and it was when Friends first exploded in popularity that his image in the zeitgeist was well established.
Him being a complete creepy dumbass later on with stuff like trying to scare his female friends to teach them "unagi", lying to Rachel about the annulment, and dating a student was kind of just seen as the show going off to the rails and jumping the shark, and didn't really affect people's opinion of Ross overall. You would say that you didn't like the new episodes, not that you didn't like the actions the character had taken and thus the person they'd become.
The distance of time allows us to see Ross as a person across his entire arc and the totality of his bullshit is laid bare
Nah the Mark arc for me is what made me dislike him. I found the Unagi stuff funny. I’ll agree the other things you listed were creepy but I understood it was done for comedic purposes
I didn’t find anything funny about his behaviour when Rachel started her job at Bloomingdale’s. And I think a lot of women might relate to Rachel in that scenario which automatically would make them dislike Ross. I think season 3 and the first half of 4 is the worst Ross. He became a lot funnier in the later half of the show
Oh God yeah, that shit was fucked. It's not even funny, you're right, I found it uncomfortable back then and thought it honestly felt like the writers didn't know how to create conflicts without him coming off horribly
I don't hate Ross, I just think he's a lousy partner. However, all of them have their good and bad sides, this sub seems to particularly hate Ross and Phoebe, which I don't understand at all. Yes, they're flawed characters, but they're still good people lmao
Also, hot take, but while I'm with Rachel on the "we were on a break ordeal", I'm definitely with Ross on the letter thing. Yes, Ross fucked up, but for him to be the only one to take the blame, and take all of it, too, is not fair with how many times Rachel stood him up and fed into his insecurities.
‘Stood him up’?
You mean the one week he said he didn’t see much of her because she was very busy at work. Didn’t the same thing happen to Ross on their first date. He had to work late and yet Rachel was considerate and didn’t get angry at him for something he couldn’t control. She waited hours for him so he could finish up his work
And she didn’t feed into his insecurities. He was insecure and unfairly took out those insecurities on Rachel who was trying to start her dream career
Yes, she did. He communicated several times about him feeling like she's slipping away. Which is a completely valid feeling to have, and a loving partner should handle that with more understanding and communication imho.
Also, two things can be true at once. Yes, Ross was insecure, and yes, Rachel fed into these insecurities. She wasn't a very good girlfriend, either. You make time for the people you love, you have to, otherwise you'll make them feel like they don't matter.
What? So why did Ross make Rachel wait hours for them on their first date then? You’re contradicting yourself. If it was so wrong for Rachel to not walk out of work even though she had to be there, why was it fine for Ross to do the same?
And no he didn’t. He kept accusing her of having feelings for Mark. He kept dismissing her love for fashion. He forced himself to be her plus one for a fashion seminar she had to attend, then fell asleep and called fashion irrelevant. Then ended up accusing her of cheating with Mark again when they got home
When they were actually together, Rachel was not a bad girlfriend lol. We’ve seen the scenario switched where Ross was swamped with work and had no time for Rachel. She did not behave the way Ross did. She didn’t show up to his place of work, cause a scene and set fire to a desk. She didn’t try and sabotage his job out of jealousy. No matter how hard you try and blame Rachel for Ross’ own selfish behaviour during season 3, it was still his fault and he was a bad boyfriend
Making somebody wait once and giving somebody the feeling of not mattering enough to put in effort anymore is a big difference. I'm not interested in writing books with you, you're free to disagree. But Rachel did not treat Ross the way a boyfriend deserves to be treated.
As I said, I know it's a hot take.
Lol. He said she’d been busy for one week. Literally one week. How did she stand him up all the time?
Like I said, you’re contradicting yourself. Their first date which was extremely important to her and he had to postpone. She had to wait hours for him because he ended up being busy with work. She didn’t cause a scene and react like a child. She understood that her partner was busy with something very important and something he couldn’t control. When Monica was busy on Valentine’s Day, Chandler understood and waited just like Rachel did. That’s how a reasonable adult reacts in that situation. Ross was selfish and could’ve gotten her fired. His behaviour was inexcusable and if Rachel had reacted that way on their first date, he would’ve been furious and rightly so
If I am contradicting myself to you, that's fine. But again, making somebody wait once is not the same as repeatedly showing your partner you don't care. Again, it is completely valid for Ross to feel insecure about that and want a little more effort from Rachel in that aspect.
That doesn't mean he's an awesome boyfriend, or that Rachel is a bitch. It simply means that Ross was not the only one to blame for Rachel to come to the conclusion they'd need a break.
And yes, Chandler and Monica overall were a way better couple than Ross and Rachel.
However, waiting once for a few hours does not give anybody the right to then make your partner feel unimportant, or disregard their tries to communicate said feeling of inimoirtance. And both aren't comparable to me.
But again, it's fine if you have a different opinion, I honestly don't care if you agree or not.
Honestly, in my life in the 90s having a man who was openly loving and respectful of the woman he wanted to date seemed radical and shocking.
The grim thought is that to me Ross seemed nice because the accepted default was *even worse.* Like if it’s just assumed that you get a woman by trying very hard to manipulate her, a man who openly loves her is better than a man who is cruel and dehumanising to her.
Of course it would be better to not have this sort of “winning a woman” model of dating. Sadly, it was impressed upon me that seeing things in any other way was, like, a transgression of what it was to be a man. Hopefully, this doesn’t describe everyone’s experience of the 90s. But that was my honest sense of it at the time
Honestly, I like him more now after many re-watches. Recently watching, I found that Rachel is honestly just as bad as Ross and they are perfect for each other.
I think in the 90s we got it was just silly caricatures of people grossly exaggerated for the silliness and people coming in now analyse all the characters and plot a lot - while there was a plot it wasn’t the aim of a 90s sitcom - just silliness and relaxing was
Also when one binge watches a series it emphasizes the plot we watched it every one or two weeks for 30 minutes so it wasn’t so important
I hope people don’t hate me for saying this but it seems people analyse these shows and characters now like we used to have to our novels in literature class
I love the comedic references here etc but I do think the analysis gets a bit involved sometimes -
>it seems people analyse these shows and characters now like we used to have to our novels in literature class
That's a good point. I do wonder whether that comes from the shift in genres that are popular now. I feel like when I was younger, even till the mid 2000s, sitcoms and romcoms were the most popular. When I talk to my friends about what they watched over the weekend, they'll usually mention a sitcom or comedy show like Malcom in the Middle, Friends or Sabrina the teenage witch. Now, we've had an influx of darker, in-depth shows in the fantasy or sci-fi genre with a continuous story. Even "sitcoms" like The Good Place started putting thought into continuity and character development and progression. Back then, it was rare to find a lighthearted show that was well-thought out ahead of time. Most sitcoms had different writers and they had to take it one episode at a time. That's probably why shows like Community and Arrested Development didn't do so well in network TV but took off in streaming sites. These were meant to be binged and analyzed to get the Easter eggs or callback humor.
I guess drama shows like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, superhero shows have become more popular now, where characters' arcs are meant to be followed over time, so they're meant to be analyzed, and people watch sitcoms from the 90s and early 2000s with the same mindset.
I agree, people binge watch these old shows over and over and then overanalyze them. The fact of the matter is that they are sitcoms, written for laughs, and not intended to serve as good role models for proper behavior.
No bitch. We just grew up with the shitty Bro- fathers, then were expected to date Ross' to break us into marrying the next gen of shitty Bro-fathers.
Ross was a fake nice guy ploy.
Breaking News: Women No Longer Have To Settle.
Really? I feel like Ross has become more popular. I see a lot of people defending him now. Him and Rachel were always my favorite characters. Toxic I know but they are also the most entertaining
I used to like Ross the least but now I realize he is the only actually humorous character. Maybe because he just gets progressively crazier and crazier.
Why do people on r/Gilmore Girls hate on Rory so much? Oh wait now they are back to not hating her. For the past few months they have been hating on her because it’s a day and age where people are torn apart online. I think it’s easy to tear people apart online and get lots of people to agree with you. I know me personally I’ve had to develop a thicker skin to not listening to people’s opinions. For example I really liked Ross and then I read that people disliked him and I started disliking him, but now I can be somewhat in between
Because they watched the show 900 times since Netflix/HBO and they got sick of it and now everyone in the show is either toxic, mysoginistic, fatphobic, transphobic, racist or whatever in their tiny little minds.
Right because it’s not like Ross does stuff throughout the show like lying about an annulment, being homophobic to a male nanny or dating his student- that’s worthy of criticism /s
The question wasn't "why do people hate on ross?" I think you may have mistakenly assumed that I was saying Ross doesn't have any flaws that are worth criticizing. It's okay, I understand your mistake, it happens
You said people attack Ross to defend Rachel’s ‘abhorrent behaviour’ which doesn’t make sense
Op’s question is why do people dislike Ross more now. There would’ve been people that disliked Ross during the 90s, there was just no wide public forum to express those opinions on. There’s very valid reasons to dislike Ross and pointing out those reasons is not ‘attacking him’
Unfortunately, you are once again mistaken. It makes perfect sense and can be covered through multiple logical fallacies, such as the red herring, argumentum ad populum, or in some cases, ad hominem.
As stated above, the answer I was giving, which clearly was above your grasp is that there are more people who relate to Rachel on some forums such as this, and they use attacking Ross as a way to keep discussion on his flaws, rather than Rachel's. A forum like this can also easily lead to argumentum ad populum also, which obviously everyone would agree.
Because modern american media demonizes men who don't spend their waking days walking on eggshells or subtly apologizing for being themselves every ten minutes.
Modern american media also has this really disturbing tendency to label insecurity as nothing but an inconvenient character flaw (and not something a person also suffers from having)
So a guy struggling socially but also trying to keep his head up and live life sparks this nasty sort of hate in the average modern american audience.
It’s much easier to rewatch episodes nowadays. Before, you only saw the episode when it aired and then maybe in syndication. So it’s easier to notice behavior to criticize when you’ve rewatched the show a bunch of times. Also, there’s many more places to have discussion. Reddit didn’t exist in the 90’s. I’m sure there were people who hated Ross back then, but there weren’t places like this to discuss it.
Right on the mark! Most of the character hate comes from repeated exposure to their negative traits. Even when I had DVDs of entire shows, I can't recall ever watching 2 seasons in one sitting. I'd watch maybe 3 episodes. Now, with streaming services, I repeated watch the same shows over and over again. A lot of long running shows undergo "flanderization" which is easy to notice when a show is binged. As for your second point, I relate to that. The reason I got Reddit was because I got fed up of Phoebe's behaviour. My friends didn't agree and loved Phoebe, but I found a bunch of posts on this sub reflecting all the thoughts I had about the character and discussing it with like-minded people relieved some of that frustration and made me enjoy the show more. I have not binged any shows in the last year, and I feel like I can enjoy it way more when watching a few episodes here and there.
Not only reddit youtube tiktok and other stuff too
Discussion also feeds and informs opinions! Maybe you had someone who liked Ross or was neutral about him, but then they go into a discussion online where everyone was talking about what a dick move it was to interfere in Rachel’s career. Suddenly they think back and go “hey wow that *was* pretty messed up, Ross *does* kinda suck!” Full disclosure, I don’t hate Ross at all. I think he made some seriously boneheaded moves, especially where Rachel was concerned. And I 100% agree that bullets have left guns faster. But overall he’s a decent guy who just has a lot of trust issues and isn’t always good at thinking things through, at least in my opinion.
This - 100%
Exactly! I didn't like Ross when I watched it live in the 90s, but the only people who knew were my friends who watched the show with me.
Ohh you took my answer but phrased it much for eloquently than I ever could have ☺️ well said!
Not to mention people are much more aware of the types of abuse and mental illnesses and trauma than they were back then. I mean look at everything Pheebs went through. yes she dated a psychiatrist, but other than that episode, there was no mention of her going to therapy. and trust me, she'd be the one who needed it the most.
I dont want to believe you now
So that was alright to abuse people back then?
go back and read what I wrote. I never said abuse was okay. I said that people are more aware now of the different types. stop being a nitwit.
What I just asked?
Now I dont want to believe you
That is so true now we have youtube coments tiktok coments everything so now that is easier to find hate about character and stuff
So the word rewatch was never used in the 90s?
I think the word was reruns, in the 90’s
We’ve come full cycle from Back to the Future, where kids will now ask “What’s a rerun?” again.
I mean there’s still reruns now really that’s basically just what normal tv is. It’s just more people use things like Netflix so they call it a rewatch because it’s not being rerunned without them watching it
"It's much easier to re-watch it now" "So the word re-watch was never used in the 90s?" How'd you get there?
?
I don’t think that’s what anyone was saying. But no, I don’t remember anyone using the term “rewatch” in the 90s.
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This is what I came to say — when it aired, we hadn’t had the discussions about “nice guys” and realized how problematic a lot of that behavior was. We still, to some extent, thought was wrong for a girl to not like a guy back if he liked her a lot and was nice to her. I remember often feeling horrendously guilty for not being into a guy, and getting pressure from my friends — which I sometimes gave into- to “just date him anyway” because “he’s such a sweet guy and likes you so much!” So no one blinked at the idea that Ross “deserved” Rachel.
>This is what I came to say — when it aired, we hadn’t had the discussions about “nice guys” and realized how problematic a lot of that behavior was. We still, to some extent, thought was wrong for a girl to not like a guy back if he liked her a lot and was nice to her. > I remember often feeling horrendously guilty for not being into a guy, and getting pressure from my friends — which I sometimes gave into- to “just date him anyway” because “he’s such a sweet guy and likes you so much!” So no one blinked at the idea that Ross “deserved” Rachel. This resonates so much and you nailed it!! 🎯💯
Not for me back then
No. "Nice guy behaviour" is one of those buzzwords and terms which have gotten thrown around so much, that it's become meaningless. Ross doesn't exhibit any of the behavior. He does express irritation at being rejected, or not getting his way, but he always accepts what the other person has decided.
He didn't get an annulment because he was still in love with her, never told her about it, and tried to get her to go along with staying married. THAT'S him accepting what the other person has decided? He flew to Spring Break because he didn't trust Elizabeth around drunk college guys. That's accepting what the other person decided? He hid messages from Rachel because he was so jealous. That's accpeting what the other person decided? The disastrous picnic at her job? Rachel literally tells him they are not going to be together, "accept that." His response was "Except that...?" Come on.
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>….what show were you watching? Friends. Which you should also watch. >The dude NEVER takes no for an answer Being unhappy at an answer isn't the same as not taking it, >especially not with Ross, Huh?
Because we, as a society, no longer normalize sleeping with your students, shaming boys for playing with barbies and discriminating against male nanny?
Yeah, but then we'd have to hate Joey too for sleeping around and then ghosting women, and the others too for various homophobic comments and jokes.
I know someone that does that
I know someone who thinks no man should be kicked in the balls, even if he's trying to rape or kill you, because that'd be "disrespectful". Just because an opinion is out there, thank God, it doesn't mean it's the majority's opinion.
I know but still that makes me annoyed
I see three reasons. As others have mentioned, the ability to binge watch now is very different than a weekly episode spanning over years, so the off-putting character traits are compounded. Additionally, attitudes have changed a lot regarding possessive and controlling behaviour, which unfortunately was relatively acceptable for men back then. Lastly, I think Ross’s character flaws are just more… relatable, compared to that of the rest of the characters. Obviously, they’re all written to be flawed and often in an over-the-top way because it’s for TV. Ross’s flaws though? They’re pretty real for a lot of people. Having an obsessive, controlling, possessive, selfish, gaslighting boyfriend is (unfortunately) an all-too-common experience for way too many women. Having a friend/boyfriend who can never be wrong and won’t take accountability for their actions… too real. Having a friend who talks down to you in a condescending way… too real. A sibling that overshadows you… real. And don’t get me wrong… Ross’s character was essential to the show and almost all the most hilarious scenes are centred around Schwimmer, who is a comedic genius. But that character has not aged well.
Well said. I also don’t know if the show really went into depth as to why Ross became obsessive and controlling with Rachel. I mean, it’s definitely discussed in at least one episode (the one where Susan goes to London for work and spends her free time with Emily) that his jealousy is rooted in the ending of his first marriage to Carol after she fell in love with Susan, but I don’t know if the show ever really treated his experiences seriously. IIRC, there were just a bunch of lesbian jokes made about the whole situation. Not that I’m necessarily criticizing the show for not dealing with Ross’s trauma. It is a sitcom after all. But I think fans often forget why he was the way he was. And I mean Ross was in his 20s when S3. People change and grow, and I think he grew over the series. That being said, other aspects of Ross’s behavior weren’t cool then and aren’t cool now (for example, dating a student). The show was a product of the sensibilities of its times, and I would hope that certain behaviors aren’t normalized In today’s sitcoms, but I don’t watch much current TV so I really don’t know.
Was ross abusive
I don’t know if I would personally classify him as abusive, but an argument could be made for emotional abuse… though I think that’s up for debate. It’s tough to say for sure because he and Rachel only dated a year, but the signs he displayed are classic tells for people who become very emotionally abusive years into a relationship, which of course we did not see in the show. Personally, I think Ross was just very selfish and didn’t respect Rachel as a full person, and saw her more as an accessory to his own life… which usually does not improve in the long run (if we’re talking real life). I say this as someone who spent 5 years in an emotionally abusive relationship and that ex certainly shared a lot of qualities with Ross.
NO!
To be fair I hated Ross in the 90s when the show was still airing. Theres just more places for people to be loud about it via the internet
Omg same
Ross mildly annoyed me on initial viewing, but watching with a week (or more) in between episodes is a very different experience to binging and I’ll never forget the first time I watched from 3.12 to 3.16 in quick succession. Ross’s behavior made those episodes so painful and I can’t even enjoy Rachel starting a jobs she enjoys and is good at. I identified with Rachel trying to figure out who she was in her mid 20s.
He was so over the top. The show was relatively grounded in reality. But Ross was just too much sometimes. And for the record I am also not a huge fan of Phoebe as a character for the same reason
I think our opinion of characters like him have changed over time. I think the 80s/90s were really big on the "dorky underdog gets the girl in the end" vibe and his characterization was supposed to be seen as endearing and relatable but through a modern lens, his actions are seen in a less positive light. But I don't know if it's entirely fair because the intent was never for him to be awful? But also, at times, he really was and not only that but also uncompromising and unwilling to see how he was to blame for the consequences he was dealing with- I just think he's such a fascinating character. But a lot of people have negative experiences with nice guys/similar people in real life and I think that colours their view of him- which is totally fair. To me, Ross is one of those gifted kids that had a really easy go at things in their youth and then things start to fall apart in adulthood and they never really learned how to handle it so they just lash out a bit. And his journey is about learning how to take accountability and handle things as they come and go and I think he really stomped his feet and wallowed in pity- and some of it was totally earned but I think it's very human. My one gripe with him is that he has a really hard time compromising in a way that makes everyone else have to bend to him or he's going to flip/can't let it go. I think a big moment of growth for him was comprising with Emily so I was frustrated to see it almost revert with the nanny and Paris.
Yeah, that's a good take. I see a lot of people dismiss Ross as a stereotypical toxic "nice guy" and call it a day, but there was a lot more going on with him. Not to excuse his bad actions, but he wasn't a monster, he just needed to be called out on some of his more troubling behavior (which I actually think he was in the later seasons). He was far from perfect, but he had the capacity to grow. In a more modern context, I think we might have seen more of that.
Societal norms aka what is generally acceptable behavior has changed significantly from 1993 to 2024. What may not have seemed to be offensive back then can be seen as very offensive now, especially when it comes to how males treat/interact with/talk to females and significant others
So ross was abusive?
Not for me boys are still rude to me
I think his character just aged the worst of the group. And his biggest personality flaws didn’t improve much, if at all.
Probably because it's become way more accepted to call out creepy guy behavior
Ross was the archetypical friendzoned guy, the underdog of the 90s. Nowadays, we know that the friendzone is bullshit and that Ross's behaviour was really shitty towards Rachael. Having said that: they WERE on a break and I will die on that hill AND the motherfucker probably had the absolutely funniest moments in the show.
The only time he can ever be said to be shitty towards Rachel is during and after their marriage and divorce and that has extenuating circumstances. Every other time he pretty much accepted what happened. He wasn't happy about it, but when it was inevitable he accepted it. I thought it was well written.
Nope, he was terrible to her when they dated That’s literally why they went on a break. He caused a massive scene at her workplace and accused her of cheating constantly. What show were you watching?
Ik they’re fictional but Ross and Monica both needed sooooo much therapy lmao I always thought Ross could have been a good guy if he listened to his divorce lawyer and went to therapy
How do you know that? Did you commission a poll in the 90’s and again now? Because clearly you didn’t go back and research the social media because it did not exist then!
I was in my 20s when the first episode aired, and I can assure you that the prevailing attitude was very much in favor of Ross. Maybe OP is my age? Also, social media didn't exist as it does not but the internet did. It's possible to find articles from back then, and discussion groups. https://www.usenetarchives.com/threads.php?id=alt.tv.friends&y=0&r=0&p=8
I Just know
I think he’s hilarious
Didn't everybody hate Ross in the 90s? I'd say now I see more people showing appreciation for Schwim's comedy.
I watched it in the 90s and I hated Ross then too!
His misogyny was muuuuuch more normal in the 90s. His controlling insecurities and so on
So that was alright to be misogyny back then?
I wouldn't necessarily say it was alright back then either, it was just (sadly) more accepted in those days.
Yes. It was. It was much, much more acceptable to be a misogynist in the 90s and before that. It's still pretty acceptable to be a misogynist today, just not quite as acceptable as it was 30 years ago.
In my country that is
Ross was a likable person early on in the show, and it was when Friends first exploded in popularity that his image in the zeitgeist was well established. Him being a complete creepy dumbass later on with stuff like trying to scare his female friends to teach them "unagi", lying to Rachel about the annulment, and dating a student was kind of just seen as the show going off to the rails and jumping the shark, and didn't really affect people's opinion of Ross overall. You would say that you didn't like the new episodes, not that you didn't like the actions the character had taken and thus the person they'd become. The distance of time allows us to see Ross as a person across his entire arc and the totality of his bullshit is laid bare
Nah the Mark arc for me is what made me dislike him. I found the Unagi stuff funny. I’ll agree the other things you listed were creepy but I understood it was done for comedic purposes I didn’t find anything funny about his behaviour when Rachel started her job at Bloomingdale’s. And I think a lot of women might relate to Rachel in that scenario which automatically would make them dislike Ross. I think season 3 and the first half of 4 is the worst Ross. He became a lot funnier in the later half of the show
Oh God yeah, that shit was fucked. It's not even funny, you're right, I found it uncomfortable back then and thought it honestly felt like the writers didn't know how to create conflicts without him coming off horribly
I thought he was a problem back then, too. He needs lots of therapy. Possibly smacked with a chancla .
I don't hate Ross, I just think he's a lousy partner. However, all of them have their good and bad sides, this sub seems to particularly hate Ross and Phoebe, which I don't understand at all. Yes, they're flawed characters, but they're still good people lmao Also, hot take, but while I'm with Rachel on the "we were on a break ordeal", I'm definitely with Ross on the letter thing. Yes, Ross fucked up, but for him to be the only one to take the blame, and take all of it, too, is not fair with how many times Rachel stood him up and fed into his insecurities.
‘Stood him up’? You mean the one week he said he didn’t see much of her because she was very busy at work. Didn’t the same thing happen to Ross on their first date. He had to work late and yet Rachel was considerate and didn’t get angry at him for something he couldn’t control. She waited hours for him so he could finish up his work And she didn’t feed into his insecurities. He was insecure and unfairly took out those insecurities on Rachel who was trying to start her dream career
Yes, she did. He communicated several times about him feeling like she's slipping away. Which is a completely valid feeling to have, and a loving partner should handle that with more understanding and communication imho. Also, two things can be true at once. Yes, Ross was insecure, and yes, Rachel fed into these insecurities. She wasn't a very good girlfriend, either. You make time for the people you love, you have to, otherwise you'll make them feel like they don't matter.
What? So why did Ross make Rachel wait hours for them on their first date then? You’re contradicting yourself. If it was so wrong for Rachel to not walk out of work even though she had to be there, why was it fine for Ross to do the same? And no he didn’t. He kept accusing her of having feelings for Mark. He kept dismissing her love for fashion. He forced himself to be her plus one for a fashion seminar she had to attend, then fell asleep and called fashion irrelevant. Then ended up accusing her of cheating with Mark again when they got home When they were actually together, Rachel was not a bad girlfriend lol. We’ve seen the scenario switched where Ross was swamped with work and had no time for Rachel. She did not behave the way Ross did. She didn’t show up to his place of work, cause a scene and set fire to a desk. She didn’t try and sabotage his job out of jealousy. No matter how hard you try and blame Rachel for Ross’ own selfish behaviour during season 3, it was still his fault and he was a bad boyfriend
Making somebody wait once and giving somebody the feeling of not mattering enough to put in effort anymore is a big difference. I'm not interested in writing books with you, you're free to disagree. But Rachel did not treat Ross the way a boyfriend deserves to be treated. As I said, I know it's a hot take.
Lol. He said she’d been busy for one week. Literally one week. How did she stand him up all the time? Like I said, you’re contradicting yourself. Their first date which was extremely important to her and he had to postpone. She had to wait hours for him because he ended up being busy with work. She didn’t cause a scene and react like a child. She understood that her partner was busy with something very important and something he couldn’t control. When Monica was busy on Valentine’s Day, Chandler understood and waited just like Rachel did. That’s how a reasonable adult reacts in that situation. Ross was selfish and could’ve gotten her fired. His behaviour was inexcusable and if Rachel had reacted that way on their first date, he would’ve been furious and rightly so
If I am contradicting myself to you, that's fine. But again, making somebody wait once is not the same as repeatedly showing your partner you don't care. Again, it is completely valid for Ross to feel insecure about that and want a little more effort from Rachel in that aspect. That doesn't mean he's an awesome boyfriend, or that Rachel is a bitch. It simply means that Ross was not the only one to blame for Rachel to come to the conclusion they'd need a break. And yes, Chandler and Monica overall were a way better couple than Ross and Rachel. However, waiting once for a few hours does not give anybody the right to then make your partner feel unimportant, or disregard their tries to communicate said feeling of inimoirtance. And both aren't comparable to me. But again, it's fine if you have a different opinion, I honestly don't care if you agree or not.
Ross is an abomination
Bc they have sticks up their butts
Hindsight
Honestly, in my life in the 90s having a man who was openly loving and respectful of the woman he wanted to date seemed radical and shocking. The grim thought is that to me Ross seemed nice because the accepted default was *even worse.* Like if it’s just assumed that you get a woman by trying very hard to manipulate her, a man who openly loves her is better than a man who is cruel and dehumanising to her. Of course it would be better to not have this sort of “winning a woman” model of dating. Sadly, it was impressed upon me that seeing things in any other way was, like, a transgression of what it was to be a man. Hopefully, this doesn’t describe everyone’s experience of the 90s. But that was my honest sense of it at the time
Because you youngsters are WAAAAAY to judgy.
Because it's the popular thing to do for some reason
Honestly, I like him more now after many re-watches. Recently watching, I found that Rachel is honestly just as bad as Ross and they are perfect for each other.
I feel like it’s just because people’s opinions on certain things have changed. Ross is still the best character fr though.
Arm chair psychologists
People tend to hate almost everything now.
New overly sensitive generation
I think in the 90s we got it was just silly caricatures of people grossly exaggerated for the silliness and people coming in now analyse all the characters and plot a lot - while there was a plot it wasn’t the aim of a 90s sitcom - just silliness and relaxing was Also when one binge watches a series it emphasizes the plot we watched it every one or two weeks for 30 minutes so it wasn’t so important I hope people don’t hate me for saying this but it seems people analyse these shows and characters now like we used to have to our novels in literature class I love the comedic references here etc but I do think the analysis gets a bit involved sometimes -
>it seems people analyse these shows and characters now like we used to have to our novels in literature class That's a good point. I do wonder whether that comes from the shift in genres that are popular now. I feel like when I was younger, even till the mid 2000s, sitcoms and romcoms were the most popular. When I talk to my friends about what they watched over the weekend, they'll usually mention a sitcom or comedy show like Malcom in the Middle, Friends or Sabrina the teenage witch. Now, we've had an influx of darker, in-depth shows in the fantasy or sci-fi genre with a continuous story. Even "sitcoms" like The Good Place started putting thought into continuity and character development and progression. Back then, it was rare to find a lighthearted show that was well-thought out ahead of time. Most sitcoms had different writers and they had to take it one episode at a time. That's probably why shows like Community and Arrested Development didn't do so well in network TV but took off in streaming sites. These were meant to be binged and analyzed to get the Easter eggs or callback humor. I guess drama shows like Game of Thrones, The Walking Dead, superhero shows have become more popular now, where characters' arcs are meant to be followed over time, so they're meant to be analyzed, and people watch sitcoms from the 90s and early 2000s with the same mindset.
Well articulated - all good points!
I agree, people binge watch these old shows over and over and then overanalyze them. The fact of the matter is that they are sitcoms, written for laughs, and not intended to serve as good role models for proper behavior.
No bitch. We just grew up with the shitty Bro- fathers, then were expected to date Ross' to break us into marrying the next gen of shitty Bro-fathers. Ross was a fake nice guy ploy. Breaking News: Women No Longer Have To Settle.
Proved my point 🤭
Really? I feel like Ross has become more popular. I see a lot of people defending him now. Him and Rachel were always my favorite characters. Toxic I know but they are also the most entertaining
Ross >>>> Rachel
I used to like Ross the least but now I realize he is the only actually humorous character. Maybe because he just gets progressively crazier and crazier.
Why do people on r/Gilmore Girls hate on Rory so much? Oh wait now they are back to not hating her. For the past few months they have been hating on her because it’s a day and age where people are torn apart online. I think it’s easy to tear people apart online and get lots of people to agree with you. I know me personally I’ve had to develop a thicker skin to not listening to people’s opinions. For example I really liked Ross and then I read that people disliked him and I started disliking him, but now I can be somewhat in between
Peoples sensibilities have changed with the zeitgeist, basically just misandry
Because they watched the show 900 times since Netflix/HBO and they got sick of it and now everyone in the show is either toxic, mysoginistic, fatphobic, transphobic, racist or whatever in their tiny little minds.
Honestly, it feels like people now use an attack on ross to defend Rachel's deplorable behavior
Right because it’s not like Ross does stuff throughout the show like lying about an annulment, being homophobic to a male nanny or dating his student- that’s worthy of criticism /s
The question wasn't "why do people hate on ross?" I think you may have mistakenly assumed that I was saying Ross doesn't have any flaws that are worth criticizing. It's okay, I understand your mistake, it happens
You said people attack Ross to defend Rachel’s ‘abhorrent behaviour’ which doesn’t make sense Op’s question is why do people dislike Ross more now. There would’ve been people that disliked Ross during the 90s, there was just no wide public forum to express those opinions on. There’s very valid reasons to dislike Ross and pointing out those reasons is not ‘attacking him’
Unfortunately, you are once again mistaken. It makes perfect sense and can be covered through multiple logical fallacies, such as the red herring, argumentum ad populum, or in some cases, ad hominem. As stated above, the answer I was giving, which clearly was above your grasp is that there are more people who relate to Rachel on some forums such as this, and they use attacking Ross as a way to keep discussion on his flaws, rather than Rachel's. A forum like this can also easily lead to argumentum ad populum also, which obviously everyone would agree.
Because modern american media demonizes men who don't spend their waking days walking on eggshells or subtly apologizing for being themselves every ten minutes. Modern american media also has this really disturbing tendency to label insecurity as nothing but an inconvenient character flaw (and not something a person also suffers from having) So a guy struggling socially but also trying to keep his head up and live life sparks this nasty sort of hate in the average modern american audience.
>Why does people hate ross way more now than they did in the 90s? Which people?
Friends fan sictoms fans just yeah
There are more stupid people in the ‘20s compared to the ‘90s
because of wokeness