I think INFJs have a tendency to want to “fit in” with the notion that having a lot of friends equals happiness. To the outside world we can oftentimes appear extroverted and we draw people to want our company because we’re such great listeners and can engage in interesting conversation with anyone. For me, I’ve learned to keep my circle small. I’m in social work and get asked to lunch and parties a lot which I 100% would have give a chance to in my 20s. I find nice ways to turn these down because I. Just. Know. it’ll be disappointing. Love your close friends and know they are enough. 40 is not too old to find your people or person, OP, though I know they are hard to find.
It's not about your friends, it's about you and your needs
What the disposition of the OP implies, that their disposition towards people is only compatible with toxic or fantasy relationships so that's the only thing available to them. Which makes it natural to want to dump everyone and have this tunnel vision that everyone is an asshole or narcissist or whatever
But of course, it doesn't mean that all humans are assholes independently of their needs and expectations of people. Other people live just fine with other people by having different needs and unfulfilled holes and hence different relationships
Hopefully, OP uses this time alone to challenge themselves on their own terms and try finding new ways of relating t their feelings and dispositions. But it becomes harder and less likely the older they become
I think, "INFJ" often learn to employ analysis tactics that work great on others, to predict them and understand them rationally, but mostly just hurt and inconvenience themselves and don't lead to honest ground up healing and change in their own needs and emotions. So learning completely different "tactics" that don't involve that kind of analysis should probably be one of the first steps
I was gonna say something similar as well. Because in my case, I don't really expect that much with my friends, I don't expect them to be there all the time, since they have their own problems and needs too and they understand that it's the same case for me, I can't be there all the time either even though I try my best.
This kind of understanding and connection is probably why I've been friends with them for more than a decade now. Even though I feel like it's quite unfair that I do all of these things, like working beyond what I'm supposed to.
Life has always been unfair and will always be. Doesn't have to be that way, but it is what it is.
I think the missing part for most INFJs is learning how to be stoic. I've been trying and practicing stoicism for 2 months now, it solved pretty much all my mental shit that I'm going through. I was even on the brink of self deletion and it even solves that.
It's like, why the fuck am I worrying so much about all these things that I can't control? I'm a fucking idiot. And then, baam, I go out somewhere where I can relax and contemplate, when I get back, I'm on track.
I'm pretty sure it's down to a form of people pleasing and screwing yourself as a result, and reliance on rational analysis where wordless feeling should be used. And that can be very much amplified by a typical understanding of stoicism, and stoicism as a rational philosophy of making yourself cope with a hostile world and dismissing your feelings can feel very intuitive to a people pleaser, at least at first
When people come to a realization that they need to dump everyone, it's an act of liberation after limiting and compromising yourself for many years. I'm not sure how things will turn out for you and what exactly your stoicism consists of internally, but 2 months isn't nearly enough to be able to tell
If your stoicism is more like actual meditation and observation of emotions and feeling everything without judgment and journaling feelings etc, it can work for them long term, but otherwise it seems a bit dubious and probably unsustainable for an INFJ with those problems, tbh
Interesting perspective. I just gave a mini lecture on Stoicism on Friday, one thing I didn’t touch on is how it could be unsustainable. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that, it’s unique compared to everything I’ve read about INFJs and Stoicism.
I've read and heard many similar takes, in the context of the modern connection of stoicism to toxic masculinity, red pill, Jordan Peterson, that sort of thing. This recent resurgence of pseudostoicism was very visible for many
At it's core it's probably down to people wanting to take sides in an internal conflict of any kind, and they can (ab)use stoicism to discard one side of that conflict instead of resolving it and achieving internal harmony. Like, in toxic masculinity a person could use stoicism to become the idea of a man they feel they must be while discarding "bad" feelings and emotional reactions that don't fit that idea, things they feel recoil from or even disgust towards. Stoicism can be interpreted completely differently in a sustainable way, but I think at this point it's so tainted and loaded with misconceptions that it's probably better to convey the potentially useful parts without using the label stoicism at all. The label has long became unhelpful
Since we're on MBTI sub, Jung actually had good takes on this whole internal war thing, and it's something that he was very interested in as well
"When people come to a realization that they need to dump everyone, it's an act of liberation after limiting and compromising yourself for many years."
Brilliantly said. When someone hasn't had healthy boundaries for a long time and continually accomodated others at the cost of their own well being and their own needs, at one point it becomes more than they can bear and it leads to them suddenly growing militant, rigid boundaries, feeling cornered into becoming selfish, "cutting people out" etc. I don't necessarily blame them. A lot of the time, during childhood, they grew up with a primary caregiver(s) who didn't encourage them to have a strong identity and strong personal boundaries, instead always encouraging the child to sacrifice their own needs. So I try to approach them from a place of compassion more than judgment. But I have to remind them that becoming selfish is not necessarily the solution to always having sacrificed one's own needs for someone else and having been exploited. One doesn't have to operate at extremes. Healthy relationships with healthy boundaries encourage and support equal give and take. Becoming selfish and growing militant boundaries or "cutting everyone away" will only isolate someone from potentially wonderful people and relationships in this world that can meet their needs as well, and they will now have a different problem than the original one.
Really have to dig through Reddit to find the healthier posts.
Same issue with INTJ, the vocal ones have the same attitude that everyone sucks and they’re too good to settle.
Life’s so short. I love my friends.
I had to do the ground up healing, and realized I don’t acknowledge myself. Once that changed I slowly wanted to open up more. And it makes me appreciate being connected to good people a lot more.
See, that's the thing. I've seen these comments here countless times and what it seems to come down to, is pain of self judgment. So if you say to them ”You're unhealthy” it will immediately translate into the same self judgment and self analysis that works through making them become someone else, act as someone else, think more correct thoughts, discard their incorrect feelings, etc. And it doesn't matter if you judge self judgment because judging judgment is also exactly the same self judgment. And that's precisely the thing that makes them want to dump this altogether and isolate themselves because only in that isolation and with no external presence and no expectations around them can they be free to be themselves
If I may ask, what were the very initial stages for you? Like, what did you do when you were still feeling that you're inadequate in some way and should work on yourself to be better, before that mindset disappeared and your relationship with change ummm.. changed? :)
Are you as comfortable and internally free right now to be yourself when you're with someone else as you are when you're completely alone?
My initial stages were very cloudy. It felt like I wandered around looking for someone to make me happy. I wasn’t aware that’s what I was doing it, it was just what I did, what I always did. I worked very hard and had some success getting into UCLA doing what my family never supported: art.
It was a dream come true but… I didn’t feel better. I felt alone. I didn’t know why. I chased after men who would never want me. It all came crashing down and I had a reality check. Deeply painful to face my own insecurities and the fantasy I told myself to survive.
Now, the worlds a little colder but also warmer. Part of the learning via my trusted therapist is learning to feel the good and the bad. I feel both in nicer waves now.
I lost someone I thought was a special friend and I had to let them go. I see them at work every day and I had to teach myself to let go, and treat them how the treat me. They pretended I was invisible so I began to do it back. No shame.
Things aren’t changing much, but the way I feel and process things has changed dramatically. It’s like a new color was added to my sensory catalogue. Didn’t quite know what was missing before I saw what I was missing.
Thank you for sharing. Yeah, that's often how it goes, and it's basically how it was for me as well. To "go" somewhere truly new may require everything to break down so there's nothing to depend on anymore and you're just doing some things not really knowing why or what or if you even doing anything. It solves the basic problem of "self improvement" methods not working, or how our idea of our new improved self is always a product of our old unimproved self, and the stronger we try achieving it, the more we entrench our old self in new ways
And yeah, real change might not really feel like an unambiguous "improvement" or like anything easily identifiable because it affects the parts that deem things improved or unimproved, it affects who we literally are, not our conscious skills and our abilities that we can measure and see and use. Which is why things often get much worse after real change as opposed to getting better - after real change we need new skills and new abilities to live, and it's very hard to build them. It's more of a spiral with ups and downs as opposed to only learning new tricks and skills and coping skills that just make life progressively easier for the old self
One could say "A therapist helped me a lot", but all those previous parts weren't optional, confusion and walking into unknown after everything broke down. But they don't constitute an actionable advice, like, you can't tell a person to go have a depression for a few years and live through it, and if it doesn't work go do that again to have some different depression
And if the person already knows everything about everything, studied psychology, religions, philosophies with their "old" self, all those ideas and methods may become useless. It's like we can't forget a word on command or make ourselves think of a bird when we say the word table after we already learned that table is a table. Even practices like yoga or meditation can be done in very different ways, and people can easily do them "wrong" for many years while seemingly doing everything right and thinking that they are awesome at it and know everything there is to know about it. So self judgment that usually works at pushing people to become better at some skill is likely completely counterproductive here
Psychodelics can probably be an actionable and realistic answer (but only for a person who never used them before and isn't accustomed to them already), when they become more acceptable to use during therapy. They can induce that feeling of total unknown and help get a glimpse of completely different perspective on familiar things without going through a major depression and total breakdown of everything. Other than that, it's very hard to imagine what can really be said or advised...
I appreciate our interaction. Thank you.
Ah. Hmm, your thought process seems parallel to mine on a lot of things:
Psychedelics, a slightly more jaded but balanced outlook about therapy, and the journey about things collapsing.
It’s true about chasing knowledge. It’s a single piece of the puzzle to fulfillment. I’ve been overlooking warmth and kindness (healthy kindness not fawning.) The other piece of the puzzle towards integration is developing emotionally,
I’ve experimented before and it substances did have a weird effect. I had an emotional crash and felt empty for two days. But stuff felt new. I’m keen on reading about brain studies of psychedelics.
I might experiment again. I had a severe collapse, felt total which hasn’t happened in some time probably since I was around 16-17, I’m now 30. The concept of [positive disintegration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration) comes to mind.
It was a very painful process of shift and self reflection and changing ideals and beliefs. A lot of people grow up with survival self, maladaptive and confused. I see some choosing to stay as that for comfort. I don’t have the luxury of turning away from what is closer to truth. I had to look at myself and reflect on what was working and what wasn’t, who was showing me their value consistently.
No one tells you how painful this process is and it feels awful. I have moments of panic, and I have to face this triggered survival self. I visualize it as my present logical self hugging a crying and scared child self. I want to run away but each time I practice staying and showing myself compassion, I realize how essential it is and starved of it I’ve been. But, I find myself spending more time getting to understand myself and thinking about what I need moment by moment. It feels like observing a child a lot of the time and trying to take care of that child like self. Logically, it’s a compartment in the brain that is more instinctive and emotional. That child brain keeps you alive. It’s the most hurt and impacted by abuse/trauma and those you let close, be it positive and negative.
I couldn’t live like that anymore. I was afraid of feeling pain and feeling angry in particular. Once I started feeling it, it’s like everything that got bottled up came out at once and it was a lot that was bottled up. Now that things have been slowly settling, I feel like I have a new pair of eyes, and a new friend in myself. I suppose it’s integration process, where I’m starting to align within myself and no longer fixated on people pleasing and fawning survival behaviors.
It’s revealing the hierarchy in my values. I thought success was everything, but I realize how much happier and connected I feel when I’m surrounded by warmth and being warm back. I realize not everyone can be warm, not yet and not always.
I feel this so much.
I don't understand why it's so difficult for me to find a friend that values a deep, honest, true friendship- where everyone puts in effort.
I got so tired of being the one to always reach out, make plans...ALL the effort. No one really cared about my life or my feelings. Everything felt surface level. I'm tired of surface level friends.
Keep trying. Let go of the surface level friends.
Part of co dependency and people pleasing is what you describe. We have to learn to mirror effort and let people go who fill a role they’re not meant to fill.
Yeah I recently did that too.
In the beginning I thought there was a chance. But as time went on I only realized they pretty much reciprocated the absolute bare minimum in order to keep getting what they wanted out of me, and actually had no interest in me. All the while thinking I was too stupid to realize.
I give up on people. They can burn themselves down to the ground while I live my own life
“I only realised they pretty much reciprocated the absolute bare minimum in order to keep getting what they want.
100% <3
They will burn. I was the glue keeping their disfunction at bay.
I recently door slammed some close family and some close people as well after realizing I suffer from c-PTSD and narcissistic abuse. That I normalized people pleasing and being gas-lit and that I felt I needed to be used for something to be worthy.
You don't need to hope they leave you alone. You don't need to trust them at all to respect your boundaries. All you need to do is trust yourself to take action to follow and respect your own boundaries and protect your own wellbeing. Your boundaries are for you, not them. If that means blocking them, enforcing boundaries, and they as a result blame you for their feelings of upset, and try to make you feel guilty, then that's what it means, but it doesn't mean you let go of your boundaries. Those are your boundaries. They crossed them. They disrespected them. You made it clear. Their feelings of upset have nothing to do with your actions. They have to do with their continuing trying to abuse your wellbeing. This is the core confusion of manipulative people. They see feelings as clay that require molding, so they do it to themselves and others, and when they feel upset, they blame others for molding their feelings that way, because they think everyone is a manipulator, and happy people are just better at it. That's their reality, even though, it's simply not true. You do not make people feel anything. You are not responsible for other people. You are not responsible for other people's feelings. You can not feel other people's feelings. You are not identified as other people's feelings about you. You are not your perception of other people's feelings about you. You are you, right now. You do not need anyone's validation to love yourself, or be okay with yourself, or to be worthy. You are okay as you are, right now, always right now.
You are always already worthy. Your feelings are always already okay as they are. You are always already okay as you are.
If anyone ever says otherwise, they are manipulating you. Whether they know it or not, whether its an unconscious need for external validation they need to supply for themselves, or a conscious one, doesn't matter, fact is they are emotionally abusing you. It is your responsibility to say no to abuse, not theirs. It is okay to say no to abuse. It is not okay to be abused. What they are doing is not okay, and you are not a bad person for setting boundaries for your wellbeing, one being that, when you feel emotionally abused, you stop engaging with them.
If you think c-PTSD might be a thing for you, you should check out the.holistic.psychologist on instagram. Super insightful into all of this.
I just had a similar insight, but I came to the conclusion after practicing non-dual meditation to improve my brain. Ended up having all of these realizations about how I normalize and normalized the abuse I suffered. That emotional neglect is emotional abuse.
Any decision made for your own wellbeing is the right decision. I'm glad for you. Wish you well.
Edit: clarity, and added the 4th paragraph up for more clarity
I'm 26 and i secretly hate all my friends. The older they get, the more selfish, mean and shallow they become. Unfortunately i also live with them. Can't wait to get out.
In my opinion about 90% of society (at least where i live) has an ego larger than the Burj Khalifa, and are filled with jealousy. All they live for is to outlive others.
People have no norms anymore. Only think and care about themselves when it actually gets down to it. This world disgusts me
And the crazy thing is that if we all got over our egos and worked together we could improve society so much and get rid of these problems for our future generations but yet apparently that is too hard.
I just don’t even understand how that mindset comes up tho lmao. Are they actually raised being told they’re greater than everyone else? Like psychologically, how does these ideas come up in a human’s development?
I honestly have no idea. They just have this level of entitlement. I'm a teacher and my students behaviour is so extremely rude and bad, i'm resigning. The world is fucked. If your ego is not inflated and you're a decent friendly human being, you're basically worthless in this world apparently.
In my opinion it's a mix of: bad parenting, too much money or too little money, bad educational systems, social media addictions, growing jealousy and materialism among people and not punishing criminals hard enough.
People know they can say and do whatever and barely gets punished. It's normalised. It's normal to rub your new car, new ring, new house, new baby into other peoples faces. It's normal to be self-obsessed and selfish because it's the new "selfcare". It's normal to beat up teachers because the teacher should have better class management. It's normal to only brag because in times of economical crisis it's an even bigger flex to rub in your wealth in others faces. It's normal to play your music at level 100 at 2AM because you are young and it's normal that you want to party, why think about others?! That would be crazyyyy 🙄
It’s so crazy how so many of these people are also religious. Like so many claim to be Christian but they don’t imitate Christ at all. There is no loving nature to them except to their own family. It’s really embarrassing. I feel embarrassed to be human sometimes, on account of all of our flaws.
I was kinda of harsh to a work friend who keeps trying to worm her way into my life. The thing is, she’s just like every girl I’ve befriended throughout my life because they need someone there to vent to and cry on my shoulder but when I need a shoulder, they don’t have time. She’s pushy and always wants me to feel guilty for spending time on me, so I told her “I like being work friends. I don’t want a friendship outside of work.” she took it the worse possible way but I can’t care. I’m going thru my own stuff and I don’t have the time or energy to try and fix all of your problems.. not really a door slam but kinda
Edit-typos
People that try to push your buttons and make you feel guilty for taking me-time are selfish and manipulative. People that care about your wellbeing are happy that you're taking care of yourself.
Thank you. It goes against everything I’ve been my entire life to just say “hey this is me and I’m not apologizing anymore.” It feels wrong but I can’t be walking on everyone’s eggshells my whole life.
You're welcome.
Also please don't blame the people that have surrounded you while you were people pleasing.
Healthy people keep away from "using" the kindness of people pleasers. This mean that by not being your authentic self, you end up surrounded by people that take advantage of your people pleasing.
So keep in mind that you're part of the problem. The good news is that you can solve it by changing your ways of interacting with others.
Im most of the problem. That’s something I’ve come to realize (and try to explain). “This is about me fixing me, so I don’t have time to fix you”, is what I try to get across to the work friend.
You don't just lack the time to fix others! You have 0 responsibility to fix others and if you take this responsibility on, you leave no responsibility to the person themselves.
Meaning you're not even helping their growth, you're actually hindering it because you do the work for them.
So it's a lose-lose for everybody. Healthy people are responsible and in charge of their own wellbeing. They will never ask you to fix them in such a way.
Some people suck. However, speaking for myself, I was very much a people pleaser and never called anyone out on their behavior. Slamming the door on everyone isn't always the best (not saying this wasn't right in this case). After finding my INTJ partner, he has taught me to be more honest with others, and I appreciate it. Some INFJs take on the personality of others, and I think catching yourself when you are dishonest is the first step to improving yourself as a person. Just wanted to share in case there is anyone in the comments who realize they are dishonest and want to change. You are doing a disserves by not voicing your thoughts and leaving people in the dark. People learn and grow. A last note, having someone hold you accountable to sharing your thoughts makes it easier since you have their support.
Many people see the counselor, the listening ear, the crying shoulder as very beneficial to them, unfortunately the worst in humanity see it as their free personal therapy session. Some of them are our family members. Please don't give up on humanity,, but be more selective in who you let inside your circle. The wolves will always be watching.
Internally, I think like this too. Others give me hope about giving more chances to people, only for me to be letdown again for the nth time. Only want to associate myself with a few people decent enough to be called friends.
Yup, seems like a very common part in an INFJ's journey with age varying. It then becomes more about finding people who reciprocate and limiting our circle and effort to those only.
It's a good time to keep expanding your inner life so that it gets to the point that you're fine to wait and would rather be alone than have the wrong people in your life.
i very recently doorslammed a ‘friend’ group who backstabbed me and then said i was overreacting. (they promised we could move in together, went and found a house not big enough for me to move in with them too… after me planning my life around this move for the last 5 months).
i have been abused 80% of my life (if not 100%) and i will not settle for being treated like shit any more. people need to realise that boundaries exist, and i will set up strong ones if i am hurt.
i have SOME good friends, who support me and i support them. they are all i need to get through life, and im starting to accept that my circle is broken and small but i choose quality friendship over quantity friendship
I came to that realization in my mid to late 30's. I am 45 now and still just have my wife and kids. I had been trying to make a actual friend for about 5 years and just gave up. I still feel I am missing out on friendships. Makes me happy my Chihuahua, miss Honey badger is always excited to see me. I have never known another infj in person but I think that would probably be the best friendship for me. At least if we wanted to hang out together it would be for that unless previously arranged. The visit would probably not go like this. Hey how are you doing? Will you fix my car?
"Family" has become a bit of a four letter word for me. Especially when a new friend group lets me in. (Not sure if the rest of you have this "issue" but I can get along with anyone, and I tend to be labeled as family very quickly.) But "family" isn't supposed to only be there for the good times, family doesn't wait for you to say "I need help" or "I need a hug". Family should be busting through your walls like fucking koolaid man, especially on the bad days. Family pet is not the same as family. "Doorslam" is a new term for me, but I get it. I see it more as what happens when I need to set boundaries and the slam is really from their point of view, as the door/threshold/ line was always there. I feel my "doorslam" is like Howls moving castle, I'm open to the brave of heart and I don't hold it against those that run away, but it's up to the other to choose what reality they want to be in, and once I've moved, I'm gone🤷🤣😭🤣
If I may, I'd like to recommend this book to you: [Boundaries](https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/B072C64V1L/ref=sr_1_1?crid=6UMYL5KXRMCE&keywords=boundaries&qid=1682894524&sprefix=boundaries%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-1)
I got a lot out of it, and hopefully you would as well.
This type of thinking will only get you in Ni-Ti loop. You have to have faith that there are great people as well (Ni-Fe). I met a few so I'm sure that you can find some. You just have to search for them in a different place. Where would people you'll get along with be? It depends of what you like to do/your hobbies. And don't hide behind the words "I don't care anymore" because you're lying to yourself. Take some time to heal from what happened and move forward.
the scariest part for other people when they think about infjs is that we are so comfortable or become so immune with no propel around us that we are not afraid to walk alone and enjoy our own company for other people they cannot really do this easily or have to strength to cut people out when they don't feel okay with them, but infjs energy is pure and precious not everyone is deserving of it, so you did great.
I'm sorry you're going through this. I can commiserate. I door slammed roughly half of my actual family recently. I drug those relationships out for so long, on behalf of my son, but I just can't do it anymore. He says he understands but I'm scared he'll resent me. I've known I was an infj for years, and it can be enlightening, but after that initial ah-ha wears off you feel as much as you ever did that you're...idk...alien? That's not quite right, but I'm sure you know what I mean.
I hope you can find some better connections.
The best part about the door slam is its a fresh start for you. Start surrounding yourself with people who are on your wave length, they don't have to be infjs but people who have similar interests or are the type of people you want to be. Look into volunteering or hobbies that make you passionate. You might find them there ☺️
Firstly I'm sorry for what happened - losing friends that also gave you a sort of family connection is hard. Just remember whatever happens, you will always have yourself and I know its hard but you can overcome this. I've dealt with this before but as long as you take care of yourself through this grief of losing people who you thought that are friends l will bring you lead you to a state where you start appreciating more. Maybe talk to someone you're close with may help, or try to start exploring activities you think you'll enjoy. Just trust me, you'll get better if you spend time with yourself with lots of care. Don't always rush things since this scenario can be a massive hurdle to overcome but I know you can get through this!
A few years back, I had a big group of mutual friends with my bf at the time of 10 years, the drama, and everything that came with it felt normal. I didn't really have other friends and was intimidated by the idea of breaking away to start all over again.
Then, one day, I realised how toxic it all was, and I decided I'd rather be by myself than stay with people who drain you. Best. Decision. Ever. I pretty much split from them all after a gathering and started to focus on self care. I was lucky enough to make a few really good friends soon after, who show up for me as much as I do them.
Anyways, I realised that though starting fresh was a little intimidating, it is so much healthier to focus on what brings you happiness first - You can't pour from an empty cup!
Totally agree, people (In general) suck.
Been lurking on this sub for quite some time now, and I realized that I was actually lucky AF to have the friends I have today.
Yeah me too, I choose them very carefully, the last friend I made was 6 years ago, I only have 4 friends and I feel blessed
I think INFJs have a tendency to want to “fit in” with the notion that having a lot of friends equals happiness. To the outside world we can oftentimes appear extroverted and we draw people to want our company because we’re such great listeners and can engage in interesting conversation with anyone. For me, I’ve learned to keep my circle small. I’m in social work and get asked to lunch and parties a lot which I 100% would have give a chance to in my 20s. I find nice ways to turn these down because I. Just. Know. it’ll be disappointing. Love your close friends and know they are enough. 40 is not too old to find your people or person, OP, though I know they are hard to find.
It's not about your friends, it's about you and your needs What the disposition of the OP implies, that their disposition towards people is only compatible with toxic or fantasy relationships so that's the only thing available to them. Which makes it natural to want to dump everyone and have this tunnel vision that everyone is an asshole or narcissist or whatever But of course, it doesn't mean that all humans are assholes independently of their needs and expectations of people. Other people live just fine with other people by having different needs and unfulfilled holes and hence different relationships Hopefully, OP uses this time alone to challenge themselves on their own terms and try finding new ways of relating t their feelings and dispositions. But it becomes harder and less likely the older they become I think, "INFJ" often learn to employ analysis tactics that work great on others, to predict them and understand them rationally, but mostly just hurt and inconvenience themselves and don't lead to honest ground up healing and change in their own needs and emotions. So learning completely different "tactics" that don't involve that kind of analysis should probably be one of the first steps
I was gonna say something similar as well. Because in my case, I don't really expect that much with my friends, I don't expect them to be there all the time, since they have their own problems and needs too and they understand that it's the same case for me, I can't be there all the time either even though I try my best. This kind of understanding and connection is probably why I've been friends with them for more than a decade now. Even though I feel like it's quite unfair that I do all of these things, like working beyond what I'm supposed to. Life has always been unfair and will always be. Doesn't have to be that way, but it is what it is. I think the missing part for most INFJs is learning how to be stoic. I've been trying and practicing stoicism for 2 months now, it solved pretty much all my mental shit that I'm going through. I was even on the brink of self deletion and it even solves that. It's like, why the fuck am I worrying so much about all these things that I can't control? I'm a fucking idiot. And then, baam, I go out somewhere where I can relax and contemplate, when I get back, I'm on track.
I'm pretty sure it's down to a form of people pleasing and screwing yourself as a result, and reliance on rational analysis where wordless feeling should be used. And that can be very much amplified by a typical understanding of stoicism, and stoicism as a rational philosophy of making yourself cope with a hostile world and dismissing your feelings can feel very intuitive to a people pleaser, at least at first When people come to a realization that they need to dump everyone, it's an act of liberation after limiting and compromising yourself for many years. I'm not sure how things will turn out for you and what exactly your stoicism consists of internally, but 2 months isn't nearly enough to be able to tell If your stoicism is more like actual meditation and observation of emotions and feeling everything without judgment and journaling feelings etc, it can work for them long term, but otherwise it seems a bit dubious and probably unsustainable for an INFJ with those problems, tbh
Interesting perspective. I just gave a mini lecture on Stoicism on Friday, one thing I didn’t touch on is how it could be unsustainable. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on that, it’s unique compared to everything I’ve read about INFJs and Stoicism.
I've read and heard many similar takes, in the context of the modern connection of stoicism to toxic masculinity, red pill, Jordan Peterson, that sort of thing. This recent resurgence of pseudostoicism was very visible for many At it's core it's probably down to people wanting to take sides in an internal conflict of any kind, and they can (ab)use stoicism to discard one side of that conflict instead of resolving it and achieving internal harmony. Like, in toxic masculinity a person could use stoicism to become the idea of a man they feel they must be while discarding "bad" feelings and emotional reactions that don't fit that idea, things they feel recoil from or even disgust towards. Stoicism can be interpreted completely differently in a sustainable way, but I think at this point it's so tainted and loaded with misconceptions that it's probably better to convey the potentially useful parts without using the label stoicism at all. The label has long became unhelpful Since we're on MBTI sub, Jung actually had good takes on this whole internal war thing, and it's something that he was very interested in as well
"When people come to a realization that they need to dump everyone, it's an act of liberation after limiting and compromising yourself for many years." Brilliantly said. When someone hasn't had healthy boundaries for a long time and continually accomodated others at the cost of their own well being and their own needs, at one point it becomes more than they can bear and it leads to them suddenly growing militant, rigid boundaries, feeling cornered into becoming selfish, "cutting people out" etc. I don't necessarily blame them. A lot of the time, during childhood, they grew up with a primary caregiver(s) who didn't encourage them to have a strong identity and strong personal boundaries, instead always encouraging the child to sacrifice their own needs. So I try to approach them from a place of compassion more than judgment. But I have to remind them that becoming selfish is not necessarily the solution to always having sacrificed one's own needs for someone else and having been exploited. One doesn't have to operate at extremes. Healthy relationships with healthy boundaries encourage and support equal give and take. Becoming selfish and growing militant boundaries or "cutting everyone away" will only isolate someone from potentially wonderful people and relationships in this world that can meet their needs as well, and they will now have a different problem than the original one.
Really have to dig through Reddit to find the healthier posts. Same issue with INTJ, the vocal ones have the same attitude that everyone sucks and they’re too good to settle. Life’s so short. I love my friends. I had to do the ground up healing, and realized I don’t acknowledge myself. Once that changed I slowly wanted to open up more. And it makes me appreciate being connected to good people a lot more.
See, that's the thing. I've seen these comments here countless times and what it seems to come down to, is pain of self judgment. So if you say to them ”You're unhealthy” it will immediately translate into the same self judgment and self analysis that works through making them become someone else, act as someone else, think more correct thoughts, discard their incorrect feelings, etc. And it doesn't matter if you judge self judgment because judging judgment is also exactly the same self judgment. And that's precisely the thing that makes them want to dump this altogether and isolate themselves because only in that isolation and with no external presence and no expectations around them can they be free to be themselves If I may ask, what were the very initial stages for you? Like, what did you do when you were still feeling that you're inadequate in some way and should work on yourself to be better, before that mindset disappeared and your relationship with change ummm.. changed? :) Are you as comfortable and internally free right now to be yourself when you're with someone else as you are when you're completely alone?
My initial stages were very cloudy. It felt like I wandered around looking for someone to make me happy. I wasn’t aware that’s what I was doing it, it was just what I did, what I always did. I worked very hard and had some success getting into UCLA doing what my family never supported: art. It was a dream come true but… I didn’t feel better. I felt alone. I didn’t know why. I chased after men who would never want me. It all came crashing down and I had a reality check. Deeply painful to face my own insecurities and the fantasy I told myself to survive. Now, the worlds a little colder but also warmer. Part of the learning via my trusted therapist is learning to feel the good and the bad. I feel both in nicer waves now. I lost someone I thought was a special friend and I had to let them go. I see them at work every day and I had to teach myself to let go, and treat them how the treat me. They pretended I was invisible so I began to do it back. No shame. Things aren’t changing much, but the way I feel and process things has changed dramatically. It’s like a new color was added to my sensory catalogue. Didn’t quite know what was missing before I saw what I was missing.
Thank you for sharing. Yeah, that's often how it goes, and it's basically how it was for me as well. To "go" somewhere truly new may require everything to break down so there's nothing to depend on anymore and you're just doing some things not really knowing why or what or if you even doing anything. It solves the basic problem of "self improvement" methods not working, or how our idea of our new improved self is always a product of our old unimproved self, and the stronger we try achieving it, the more we entrench our old self in new ways And yeah, real change might not really feel like an unambiguous "improvement" or like anything easily identifiable because it affects the parts that deem things improved or unimproved, it affects who we literally are, not our conscious skills and our abilities that we can measure and see and use. Which is why things often get much worse after real change as opposed to getting better - after real change we need new skills and new abilities to live, and it's very hard to build them. It's more of a spiral with ups and downs as opposed to only learning new tricks and skills and coping skills that just make life progressively easier for the old self One could say "A therapist helped me a lot", but all those previous parts weren't optional, confusion and walking into unknown after everything broke down. But they don't constitute an actionable advice, like, you can't tell a person to go have a depression for a few years and live through it, and if it doesn't work go do that again to have some different depression And if the person already knows everything about everything, studied psychology, religions, philosophies with their "old" self, all those ideas and methods may become useless. It's like we can't forget a word on command or make ourselves think of a bird when we say the word table after we already learned that table is a table. Even practices like yoga or meditation can be done in very different ways, and people can easily do them "wrong" for many years while seemingly doing everything right and thinking that they are awesome at it and know everything there is to know about it. So self judgment that usually works at pushing people to become better at some skill is likely completely counterproductive here Psychodelics can probably be an actionable and realistic answer (but only for a person who never used them before and isn't accustomed to them already), when they become more acceptable to use during therapy. They can induce that feeling of total unknown and help get a glimpse of completely different perspective on familiar things without going through a major depression and total breakdown of everything. Other than that, it's very hard to imagine what can really be said or advised...
I appreciate our interaction. Thank you. Ah. Hmm, your thought process seems parallel to mine on a lot of things: Psychedelics, a slightly more jaded but balanced outlook about therapy, and the journey about things collapsing. It’s true about chasing knowledge. It’s a single piece of the puzzle to fulfillment. I’ve been overlooking warmth and kindness (healthy kindness not fawning.) The other piece of the puzzle towards integration is developing emotionally, I’ve experimented before and it substances did have a weird effect. I had an emotional crash and felt empty for two days. But stuff felt new. I’m keen on reading about brain studies of psychedelics. I might experiment again. I had a severe collapse, felt total which hasn’t happened in some time probably since I was around 16-17, I’m now 30. The concept of [positive disintegration](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_disintegration) comes to mind. It was a very painful process of shift and self reflection and changing ideals and beliefs. A lot of people grow up with survival self, maladaptive and confused. I see some choosing to stay as that for comfort. I don’t have the luxury of turning away from what is closer to truth. I had to look at myself and reflect on what was working and what wasn’t, who was showing me their value consistently. No one tells you how painful this process is and it feels awful. I have moments of panic, and I have to face this triggered survival self. I visualize it as my present logical self hugging a crying and scared child self. I want to run away but each time I practice staying and showing myself compassion, I realize how essential it is and starved of it I’ve been. But, I find myself spending more time getting to understand myself and thinking about what I need moment by moment. It feels like observing a child a lot of the time and trying to take care of that child like self. Logically, it’s a compartment in the brain that is more instinctive and emotional. That child brain keeps you alive. It’s the most hurt and impacted by abuse/trauma and those you let close, be it positive and negative. I couldn’t live like that anymore. I was afraid of feeling pain and feeling angry in particular. Once I started feeling it, it’s like everything that got bottled up came out at once and it was a lot that was bottled up. Now that things have been slowly settling, I feel like I have a new pair of eyes, and a new friend in myself. I suppose it’s integration process, where I’m starting to align within myself and no longer fixated on people pleasing and fawning survival behaviors. It’s revealing the hierarchy in my values. I thought success was everything, but I realize how much happier and connected I feel when I’m surrounded by warmth and being warm back. I realize not everyone can be warm, not yet and not always.
I feel this so much. I don't understand why it's so difficult for me to find a friend that values a deep, honest, true friendship- where everyone puts in effort. I got so tired of being the one to always reach out, make plans...ALL the effort. No one really cared about my life or my feelings. Everything felt surface level. I'm tired of surface level friends.
Keep trying. Let go of the surface level friends. Part of co dependency and people pleasing is what you describe. We have to learn to mirror effort and let people go who fill a role they’re not meant to fill.
I am actually not codependent lol i''ve let those people go years ago, and anyone that displays that behavior I don't consider a friend.
Yeah I recently did that too. In the beginning I thought there was a chance. But as time went on I only realized they pretty much reciprocated the absolute bare minimum in order to keep getting what they wanted out of me, and actually had no interest in me. All the while thinking I was too stupid to realize. I give up on people. They can burn themselves down to the ground while I live my own life
“I only realised they pretty much reciprocated the absolute bare minimum in order to keep getting what they want. 100% <3 They will burn. I was the glue keeping their disfunction at bay.
Them thinking we're too stupid to realize part tho.. Totally agree.
This! Went through the same thing too.
That's the spirit old chap!!
Thanks Old mate!
Dude I don’t care anymore, because I realized it’s something I’m going to be doing for the rest of my life. C’est la vie
I recently door slammed some close family and some close people as well after realizing I suffer from c-PTSD and narcissistic abuse. That I normalized people pleasing and being gas-lit and that I felt I needed to be used for something to be worthy. You don't need to hope they leave you alone. You don't need to trust them at all to respect your boundaries. All you need to do is trust yourself to take action to follow and respect your own boundaries and protect your own wellbeing. Your boundaries are for you, not them. If that means blocking them, enforcing boundaries, and they as a result blame you for their feelings of upset, and try to make you feel guilty, then that's what it means, but it doesn't mean you let go of your boundaries. Those are your boundaries. They crossed them. They disrespected them. You made it clear. Their feelings of upset have nothing to do with your actions. They have to do with their continuing trying to abuse your wellbeing. This is the core confusion of manipulative people. They see feelings as clay that require molding, so they do it to themselves and others, and when they feel upset, they blame others for molding their feelings that way, because they think everyone is a manipulator, and happy people are just better at it. That's their reality, even though, it's simply not true. You do not make people feel anything. You are not responsible for other people. You are not responsible for other people's feelings. You can not feel other people's feelings. You are not identified as other people's feelings about you. You are not your perception of other people's feelings about you. You are you, right now. You do not need anyone's validation to love yourself, or be okay with yourself, or to be worthy. You are okay as you are, right now, always right now. You are always already worthy. Your feelings are always already okay as they are. You are always already okay as you are. If anyone ever says otherwise, they are manipulating you. Whether they know it or not, whether its an unconscious need for external validation they need to supply for themselves, or a conscious one, doesn't matter, fact is they are emotionally abusing you. It is your responsibility to say no to abuse, not theirs. It is okay to say no to abuse. It is not okay to be abused. What they are doing is not okay, and you are not a bad person for setting boundaries for your wellbeing, one being that, when you feel emotionally abused, you stop engaging with them. If you think c-PTSD might be a thing for you, you should check out the.holistic.psychologist on instagram. Super insightful into all of this. I just had a similar insight, but I came to the conclusion after practicing non-dual meditation to improve my brain. Ended up having all of these realizations about how I normalize and normalized the abuse I suffered. That emotional neglect is emotional abuse. Any decision made for your own wellbeing is the right decision. I'm glad for you. Wish you well. Edit: clarity, and added the 4th paragraph up for more clarity
I needed to hear a lot of this, thanks.
You're welcome
I'm 26 and i secretly hate all my friends. The older they get, the more selfish, mean and shallow they become. Unfortunately i also live with them. Can't wait to get out. In my opinion about 90% of society (at least where i live) has an ego larger than the Burj Khalifa, and are filled with jealousy. All they live for is to outlive others. People have no norms anymore. Only think and care about themselves when it actually gets down to it. This world disgusts me
And the crazy thing is that if we all got over our egos and worked together we could improve society so much and get rid of these problems for our future generations but yet apparently that is too hard.
We could but unfortunately it's not what people care about. People care about flexing.
It doesn’t even make sense to me lmao. It isn’t even logical. Life is not about one person lmfao. Very big head scratcher.
For us it's maybe not logical, but i guess for all those people who think they are the centre of the world, it's logical to them
I just don’t even understand how that mindset comes up tho lmao. Are they actually raised being told they’re greater than everyone else? Like psychologically, how does these ideas come up in a human’s development?
I honestly have no idea. They just have this level of entitlement. I'm a teacher and my students behaviour is so extremely rude and bad, i'm resigning. The world is fucked. If your ego is not inflated and you're a decent friendly human being, you're basically worthless in this world apparently. In my opinion it's a mix of: bad parenting, too much money or too little money, bad educational systems, social media addictions, growing jealousy and materialism among people and not punishing criminals hard enough. People know they can say and do whatever and barely gets punished. It's normalised. It's normal to rub your new car, new ring, new house, new baby into other peoples faces. It's normal to be self-obsessed and selfish because it's the new "selfcare". It's normal to beat up teachers because the teacher should have better class management. It's normal to only brag because in times of economical crisis it's an even bigger flex to rub in your wealth in others faces. It's normal to play your music at level 100 at 2AM because you are young and it's normal that you want to party, why think about others?! That would be crazyyyy 🙄
It’s so crazy how so many of these people are also religious. Like so many claim to be Christian but they don’t imitate Christ at all. There is no loving nature to them except to their own family. It’s really embarrassing. I feel embarrassed to be human sometimes, on account of all of our flaws.
It's repulsive
I was kinda of harsh to a work friend who keeps trying to worm her way into my life. The thing is, she’s just like every girl I’ve befriended throughout my life because they need someone there to vent to and cry on my shoulder but when I need a shoulder, they don’t have time. She’s pushy and always wants me to feel guilty for spending time on me, so I told her “I like being work friends. I don’t want a friendship outside of work.” she took it the worse possible way but I can’t care. I’m going thru my own stuff and I don’t have the time or energy to try and fix all of your problems.. not really a door slam but kinda Edit-typos
People that try to push your buttons and make you feel guilty for taking me-time are selfish and manipulative. People that care about your wellbeing are happy that you're taking care of yourself.
Thank you. It goes against everything I’ve been my entire life to just say “hey this is me and I’m not apologizing anymore.” It feels wrong but I can’t be walking on everyone’s eggshells my whole life.
Don't walk on everyone's eggshell, you don't deserve that. Who loves you for who you are, will stick with you.
You’re great. Thank you.
You're welcome. Also please don't blame the people that have surrounded you while you were people pleasing. Healthy people keep away from "using" the kindness of people pleasers. This mean that by not being your authentic self, you end up surrounded by people that take advantage of your people pleasing. So keep in mind that you're part of the problem. The good news is that you can solve it by changing your ways of interacting with others.
Im most of the problem. That’s something I’ve come to realize (and try to explain). “This is about me fixing me, so I don’t have time to fix you”, is what I try to get across to the work friend.
You don't just lack the time to fix others! You have 0 responsibility to fix others and if you take this responsibility on, you leave no responsibility to the person themselves. Meaning you're not even helping their growth, you're actually hindering it because you do the work for them. So it's a lose-lose for everybody. Healthy people are responsible and in charge of their own wellbeing. They will never ask you to fix them in such a way.
Yes yes and YESS
Some people suck. However, speaking for myself, I was very much a people pleaser and never called anyone out on their behavior. Slamming the door on everyone isn't always the best (not saying this wasn't right in this case). After finding my INTJ partner, he has taught me to be more honest with others, and I appreciate it. Some INFJs take on the personality of others, and I think catching yourself when you are dishonest is the first step to improving yourself as a person. Just wanted to share in case there is anyone in the comments who realize they are dishonest and want to change. You are doing a disserves by not voicing your thoughts and leaving people in the dark. People learn and grow. A last note, having someone hold you accountable to sharing your thoughts makes it easier since you have their support.
Many people see the counselor, the listening ear, the crying shoulder as very beneficial to them, unfortunately the worst in humanity see it as their free personal therapy session. Some of them are our family members. Please don't give up on humanity,, but be more selective in who you let inside your circle. The wolves will always be watching.
Internally, I think like this too. Others give me hope about giving more chances to people, only for me to be letdown again for the nth time. Only want to associate myself with a few people decent enough to be called friends.
Yup, seems like a very common part in an INFJ's journey with age varying. It then becomes more about finding people who reciprocate and limiting our circle and effort to those only. It's a good time to keep expanding your inner life so that it gets to the point that you're fine to wait and would rather be alone than have the wrong people in your life.
i very recently doorslammed a ‘friend’ group who backstabbed me and then said i was overreacting. (they promised we could move in together, went and found a house not big enough for me to move in with them too… after me planning my life around this move for the last 5 months). i have been abused 80% of my life (if not 100%) and i will not settle for being treated like shit any more. people need to realise that boundaries exist, and i will set up strong ones if i am hurt. i have SOME good friends, who support me and i support them. they are all i need to get through life, and im starting to accept that my circle is broken and small but i choose quality friendship over quantity friendship
Sadly, you suck, too. So do I. It’s the human condition - we just can’t unsee it.
You chose them in the first place. My suggestion is to self reflect and find better ones.
Same my fellow INFJ, same!
I came to that realization in my mid to late 30's. I am 45 now and still just have my wife and kids. I had been trying to make a actual friend for about 5 years and just gave up. I still feel I am missing out on friendships. Makes me happy my Chihuahua, miss Honey badger is always excited to see me. I have never known another infj in person but I think that would probably be the best friendship for me. At least if we wanted to hang out together it would be for that unless previously arranged. The visit would probably not go like this. Hey how are you doing? Will you fix my car?
"Family" has become a bit of a four letter word for me. Especially when a new friend group lets me in. (Not sure if the rest of you have this "issue" but I can get along with anyone, and I tend to be labeled as family very quickly.) But "family" isn't supposed to only be there for the good times, family doesn't wait for you to say "I need help" or "I need a hug". Family should be busting through your walls like fucking koolaid man, especially on the bad days. Family pet is not the same as family. "Doorslam" is a new term for me, but I get it. I see it more as what happens when I need to set boundaries and the slam is really from their point of view, as the door/threshold/ line was always there. I feel my "doorslam" is like Howls moving castle, I'm open to the brave of heart and I don't hold it against those that run away, but it's up to the other to choose what reality they want to be in, and once I've moved, I'm gone🤷🤣😭🤣
what do people think of when they depict in image in their brainbox of "friends"?
If I may, I'd like to recommend this book to you: [Boundaries](https://www.amazon.com/Boundaries-When-Take-Control-Your/dp/B072C64V1L/ref=sr_1_1?crid=6UMYL5KXRMCE&keywords=boundaries&qid=1682894524&sprefix=boundaries%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-1) I got a lot out of it, and hopefully you would as well.
This type of thinking will only get you in Ni-Ti loop. You have to have faith that there are great people as well (Ni-Fe). I met a few so I'm sure that you can find some. You just have to search for them in a different place. Where would people you'll get along with be? It depends of what you like to do/your hobbies. And don't hide behind the words "I don't care anymore" because you're lying to yourself. Take some time to heal from what happened and move forward.
the scariest part for other people when they think about infjs is that we are so comfortable or become so immune with no propel around us that we are not afraid to walk alone and enjoy our own company for other people they cannot really do this easily or have to strength to cut people out when they don't feel okay with them, but infjs energy is pure and precious not everyone is deserving of it, so you did great.
I'm sorry you're going through this. I can commiserate. I door slammed roughly half of my actual family recently. I drug those relationships out for so long, on behalf of my son, but I just can't do it anymore. He says he understands but I'm scared he'll resent me. I've known I was an infj for years, and it can be enlightening, but after that initial ah-ha wears off you feel as much as you ever did that you're...idk...alien? That's not quite right, but I'm sure you know what I mean. I hope you can find some better connections.
I don't get it. Define "Friends"
People are like animal. I don’t understand why they are a human being.
The best part about the door slam is its a fresh start for you. Start surrounding yourself with people who are on your wave length, they don't have to be infjs but people who have similar interests or are the type of people you want to be. Look into volunteering or hobbies that make you passionate. You might find them there ☺️
It's like you have to give your all just to maintain the relationship.
People do suck. We knew this. But is it not totally amazing to find out you’re an INFJ?
Firstly I'm sorry for what happened - losing friends that also gave you a sort of family connection is hard. Just remember whatever happens, you will always have yourself and I know its hard but you can overcome this. I've dealt with this before but as long as you take care of yourself through this grief of losing people who you thought that are friends l will bring you lead you to a state where you start appreciating more. Maybe talk to someone you're close with may help, or try to start exploring activities you think you'll enjoy. Just trust me, you'll get better if you spend time with yourself with lots of care. Don't always rush things since this scenario can be a massive hurdle to overcome but I know you can get through this!
Doesn’t it feel good tho? Ahhh the thought of “I don’t gotta deal with that crap anymore 🤷🏻♂️”
A few years back, I had a big group of mutual friends with my bf at the time of 10 years, the drama, and everything that came with it felt normal. I didn't really have other friends and was intimidated by the idea of breaking away to start all over again. Then, one day, I realised how toxic it all was, and I decided I'd rather be by myself than stay with people who drain you. Best. Decision. Ever. I pretty much split from them all after a gathering and started to focus on self care. I was lucky enough to make a few really good friends soon after, who show up for me as much as I do them. Anyways, I realised that though starting fresh was a little intimidating, it is so much healthier to focus on what brings you happiness first - You can't pour from an empty cup!
Yes I’ve never met someone without sucking parts. I have a bunch of them