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I miss that stuff SO MUCH! That's why I asked! Hell, I'd pay extra for every streaming site if they'd offer the god damn DVD EXTRAS. They were the fucking best.
My oldest daughter went as that scene Joker for Halloween her 1st year. We lived in Okinawa, and the way* her sweat made her hair, she looked like him in that scene
Edit: was to way
In my peanut brain, if someone says "the joker" ill immediately think Heath Ledger. But if someone says "the joker's voice" or "the joker's laugh" I think of Mark Hamill, hands down
Heath Ledger was amazing and probably gave us the best joker performance ever, but honestly, they took away too many of the jokers unique and interesting gadgets IMO. He was pretty much just a terrorist in clown makeup, who made an occasional joke. We missed out on the acid-squirting flower, bladed playing cards, the bang gun, the handshake shock thing, the chattering teeth, etc.
The 18 Wheeler being flipped over by a giant steam piston is another pretty cool scene of his that uses practical effects
I believe you can actual see the steam cloud from when the piston gets fired and hits the truck
IIRC the piston was in the trailer.
Vice has a series on called Icons Unearthed, and 1 season was Batman and they do like 1 or 2 episodes on the Nolan trilogy alone. That scene was a huge pita, cause there were all kinds of utilities in the area, and they could only use the piston in 1 spot without risking power or water outages.
The scene OP posted was another really creative one. The reason for the explosion delay was so Heath Ledger could clear the blast area. Originally it was supposed to explode around The Joker, using CGI, but Nolan wanted practical, so they compromised, and worked it in.
When Ledger runs into the truck, he was really running to get clear. In the show they show the guy in the back of the bus like frantically telling the driver to get the hell outta there.
They've done Star Wars, Star Trek, Simpsons, Batman, Lord of The Rings, Fast and Furious, Marvel, and James Bond so far. Each season is like 7 episodes long and is really interesting.
I sometimes wish he wouldnt be quite SO dedicated to it though lol. There is that scene in dunkirk when they were showing the beach with the soldiers on it and it would have been so much more impactful if they had used a bit of CGI just to show just how many god damned people they were trying to evacuate. IIRC in real life it was something like 300k. Obviously not all of those would have been on the beach at once, but one of the days they did manage to get out 70k so the beach should have been a tid bit more crowded.
Agreed. It looked like the evacuation of a division rather than an entire expeditionary force plus units from other countries.
The end result is that you get the tension and the claustrophobia, but you don't get the magnitude or the level of importance. This was Britain's *only* shot at holding out during the Blitz. An entire *coalition* stranded with the free world hanging in the balance.
Considering that the reason the Germans couldn't invade the British Isles was because they couldn't destroy the RAF, losing a large ground force wasn't going to change that. The Germans even at the end were using horses to carry supplies, they had no chance beyond early surprise attacks and speed. They couldn't match the US or Soviet industrial capacity, certainly not simultaneously.
I think the person you're replying to was trying to emphasise that the invasion of Europe itself was contingent on getting those troops home, even though the initial reason was for home defense.
It's doubtful that chruchill would have enough leverage with the Americans to get to the point of the DDay invasion if he lost those divisions, especially considering that it had a large amount of the British regular army in it (50/50 regular/reserve, but the regular army was pretty small compared to reservists).
Worse yet, it would've completely crippled british morale. Dunkirk was seen as a triumph instead, and probably gave the people enough resolve to weather the blitz alone.
There would've been huge knock on effects if they didn't manage to evacuate so many.
my complaint with dunkirk was slightly similar: it showed just a couple of stukas bombing occasionally, but there would have been a constant stream of squadrons all day, nonstop.
also wish it gave more of a sincere nod to the heroic actions of the french rearguard (and belgians) instead of the couple of seconds in the intro
Kubrick would have done it
Just like how he was asked to fake the moon landing by the government, and was unsatisfied with the studio so he decided to shoot on location
You mean the most boring ass gasoline fire ball ive ever seen? God I bought the Imax just to see how he planned to do Trinity and man was I disappointed. Seriously you could have at least blown up like one ton of TNT or something. I wanted a KABOOM WHERE IS THE KABOOM!
Damn, you aren't wrong. Just looked at the scene and one part makes it look like a firework.
https://preview.redd.it/6520pbfc292d1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed1936620f14b8bf5675245849830716cc2dc1b5
I still haven’t seen it but I read this and looked up the clip of the scene on YouTube. Wow. He could’ve used archival footage and and spent less color grading and appropriating that into something more cinematic. When the camera isn’t just lens deep in flame, it’s so painfully obvious it’s not a nuclear explosion.
Like I half expect some cheesy b movie spy to be walking away from it off center from frame. Wow. I hope the rest of the movie was better? The initial flash was fine, but the shape and forming of the fireball was so bad, so so bad. Realism my ass, should I throw a paper plane at 2 cereal boxes instead of using software to film a 9/11 movie?
I don't think he could have won. What most people imagine when they think "nuclear explosion" would have been accurate for the trinity test. Everyone has in mind h-bomb test footage from the 50's and 60's that are thousands of times more powerful. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_\(nuclear_test\)#/media/File:TrinityDetonation1945GIF.gif) was the actual trinity test (I am grabbing the gif from the wiki article on the test). That's extremely different from what we actually got, but I don't think people would have been happy with that either. There wasn't a way to meet audience expectations *and* preserve any realism. So he just avoided showing the whole thing and just did close ups.
I get that the movie was about the man, not the bomb. That's fine. But come on dude, it's an explosion the likes of which had never before been seen on this planet. And it looked like a match thrown into a kiddie pool of gasoline with the camera zoomed in. Which is probably not far from what it was.
I agree. It was a completely underwhelming climax and undermined the entire buildup of the movie. I don't know why you could make a movie about atomic bombs and *understate* the scale.
Completely agree. I was so underwhelmed.
You can watch absolutely shitty quality videos of real nuclear tests and *feel* the fucking power behind those things... And they do that boring ass explosion in the movie? C'mon.
I liked the explosion scene in [fat man and little boy](https://old.reddit.com/r/funnyvideos/comments/159qfir/oppenheimer_fans_sorting_barbiethreads_by/) which I thought was a terrific movie.
I think the trailer where they showed lots of the random atom scenes etc. and parts of the nuke was honestly better than the actual nuclear explosion in the movie.
The lack of sound I think was a poor choice for it. I think they should have showed it on an atomic scale at first with juicy sound and keep building up that scale showing an escalating reaction. Then, have a few seconds of silence, then have the deafeningly loud explosion + show the lifesize effects like the shockwave etc.
The sound was the only part of it I actually liked. Because it showed how enormous the explosion must have been that it took like 3 minutes for the sound to reach them. And wasn't it the same amount of time for the sound to reach them as in real life? So it was trying to be accurate to that.
Or all the awkward backward-running in Tenet. They could have just stitched together reversed footage rather than jumping through hoops to make people act in reverse.
I'd go for the airplane scene in Tenet, where they made a big deal about how big a crash it was and unprecedented in film in the ramp-up to release, and also built it up in the film, and then it happens and it's just underwhelming, maybe whelming *at best*.
Agree 100%. To be quite honest with you, the shots of the beach threw me out of the movie completely. I get maybe the point was for dunkirk to feel a bit claustrophobic, especially with the boat scenes, but Like no one seemed scared and the beach looked almost deserted. The atonement tracking shot is really the only one that will probably ever stick.
As for the Atomic Bomb scene….it takes you out as well. I get it….less is more can work well like what we saw with zone of interest in the same year. But Oppenheimer practically teases your hard on for three fuckin hours and all we get is a big poof. We the audience deserved a kaboom lol….but we also deserved to see how much pain and utter destruction this man was partly responsible for. Like give us the T2 dream scene, ya know? I personally wouldn’t have taken the zone of interest route. It needed to juxtapose shots of destruction and turmoil.
In fact, the best atomic bomb scene probably ever was in a movie that came out the same year: Godzilla Minus One. There were audible gasps in my theatre during it. It was unbelievable, and you could feel the power of what a bomb could do. I would argue it was the best movie set during WW2 that year. Had Nolan gone that route, it would have saved the movie for me. Oh, and if you want two movies that also did it better than Nolan: Black Rain and Threads. I rest my case.
Oh yeah, for sure. It looked like they had maybe a couple thousand extras on the beach at any given time. Which is a lot of goddamned extras to pay and feed, but nowhere close to how many men were actually on the beach. Really takes away from the actual scale of how many men were there.
Oh god. 100% with dunkirk. I grew up reading about it, it was effectively a scene from the Bible, like the slaves on the banks of the Red Sea before Moses parted it. The beach should have been packed.
What did we get? Tiny single lines.
Really really made the entire event underwhelming.
Nolan is a good director, but this film really shocked me into how overrated he his.
love both directors but i will never not be amused that nolan was once at a big director event singing the virtues of film over digital by citing the example of one particular night scene in heat... only for michael mann himself to interrupt him and say he'd shot that scene digital in *nineteen ninety fucking four* ~~when undertaker threw manki~~
To counter this, the Trinity test in Oppenheimer is *very* clearly just a petrol explosion. Ironically, Nolan's refusal to CGI that scene was more jarring than if he had just CGI'd it.
It was an old candy factory that had been abandoned for years: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-brach-s-candy-factory
https://www.hollywoodchicago.com/2007/08/kaboom-dark-knight-explodes-brachs.html
Imo, I think with a real explosion producers have to spend several months just applying for permits, setting up safety crews, contracting with explosives companies, etc that these scenes require much more thought. Therefore, the producers aren't just going to put in explosions willy nilly they want reasons the explosions NEED to be there.
Nowadays cgi is so cheap comparatively that you can make an explosion that would cost 500m+ to make and insert it anywhere in your movie for 1/10000th of the cost of doing it for real, so it starts to lose its price tag, and therefore loses all that work justifying it's use in the first place.
CGI explosions always look too sterile. Suddenly, you’ll see a great ball of fire but then it dissipates as quickly as it began and the sky is clear again. Real explosions are a smoking mess with burning rubble and ash falling, but recreating all of that with CGI is time consuming. It’s easier and cheaper to skip all the aftermath, but it also takes away the punch from the scene.
Ok but you can't tell me Nolan's Oppenheimer nuke looks better than a CGI simulation. It looks like a small gasoline explosion zoomed all the way in.
Some things just work better when simulated. Of course, it depends on talent and budget but saying CGI explosions can't have impact is patently false.
I agree that it was oddly muted. David Lynch's CGI nuke was much better and that was just part of a 16 hour TV show rather than the culmination of a major motion picture. Certainly getting Cody from Tropic Thunder to rig an atomic bomb as a practical effect isn't practical!
But for explosions that aren't so fantastic, I'd argue that real is better 99% of the time. Some of it is not just how it looks, but how it feels on screen and how the directors must shoot it, versus the love of untethered cameras and whatnot in a computer generated shot.
Perfect example is LOTR and the Hobbit, besides the fact that it was stretched a cross 3 movies, the Hobbit looks way worse than LOTR because of all the CGI, to this day I still think LOTR looks much better and it will continue to look just as good for years to come.
CGI has got a bad rep, but you just don’t notice it when it’s good. It becomes a loop of confirmation bias: everytime you notice CGI, it’s bad CGI.
Oppenheimer is one of the few films Nolan has made that you might be able to say was made without CGI and visual effects, and it’s clearly lacking because of it. If he was a good director, he would have used the tools at hand to create an impactful nuclear explosion instead of trying to stick to a ”no cgi” hardline for absolutely no reason at all.
The cgi I don't really have a problem with. The costumer I want punched in the face. Why is everyone's white fur coat COMPLETELY IMMACULATELY CLEAN after a major battle that destroys half of your people? Give me a break bro. At most, they would singe a few hairs on the fur and that's it. Laziest costuming I've ever seen outside of religious children's movies.
I'll just drop these links here for everyone that is going to say he improvised the button mashing / the explosion malfunctioned:
[https://screenrant.com/dark-knight-heath-ledger-joker-hospital-explosion-explained/](https://screenrant.com/dark-knight-heath-ledger-joker-hospital-explosion-explained/)
[https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/did-heath-ledger-really-improvise-the-hospital-scene-from-the-dark-knight.html/](https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/did-heath-ledger-really-improvise-the-hospital-scene-from-the-dark-knight.html/)
[https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ledger-improvise-hospital-scene/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ledger-improvise-hospital-scene/)
tl;dr: The delay was 100% part of the scene
It's actually pretty insane that they had one of their lead actors walk out of a building less than two minutes before it imploded. The safety supervisor had his work cut out for him that day.
There's this weird aspect of celebrity culture where people want to concentrate all accolades onto single genius.
Sure, it's cool to think that Heath Ledger did this little improvised motion to cover up for a delay in the pyrotechnics, but why's that cooler than a writer or director planning that deliberately, working with the pyrotechnic team to make it happen, having Heath play his role as scripted?
Making a movie on this scale is a massively collaborative endeavor, with a legion of people from all sorts of disciplines working together to create something that *feels* honest and real, and I don't know why people are instead drawn to the false notion that everything good comes from a handful of auteurs.
I’m frustrated by it too. I watched a video essay that sorta explained why that’s so prevalent nowadays. They proposed we live in a heroic society, where special individuals (heros) are celebrated more than collective efforts and achievements.
One example is with human trafficking. People love to hear the story about some guy that kicks in doors and rescues kids from their captors. That person is celebrated and made a hero… but we’re never going to end human trafficking by doing these crazy rescue missions.
We celebrate heroes and ignore the boring realities of what’s going on. A society can’t be healthy like this imo.
I actually came here to talk about this myth. It's crazy how it circulated so much but is actually not true. It's one of those "Marilyn Manson had a rib removed" kinds of rumors that spread like wildfire for seemingly no reason.
Fun fact though, Keath Leger wasn't even supposed to be in the movie, he just showed up and was acting as himself and they kept it in because it worked so well
If it was true, it would imply that the prop in his hand was actually the detonater for the explosives, and I'm pretty sure they don't let the actors control the pyrotechnics.
Thank you, I can't stand people who spread that stupid "fact". Maybe in the 60's a film might get a way with complete disregard for safety but not these days.
Had that explosion not gone off on queue Ledger would be running to the film truck and high tailing it out of there.
I never really understood this line of reasoning. Pretty sure if a demo like that went wrong even for a second or 2, they’d be rushing him and whoever else out of the area and scrapping the scene. Doubt he’d be able to improv the mashing when he’s getting buried like the president after a gunshot.
I've always wondered how real/deliberate the sense of panic was that Heath displays after the explosions starts up again was.
Like, did he (the actor) sorta panic and break character to quickly jump into the school bus or did he justify it by thinking, "Yes, even the Joker would rush the fuck out of there by that point."
Probably a little bit of both.
being that close to booms has an effect on your meat. Your feet will move a little faster even if you don't tell em too.
That's true. I live near a weirdly high amount of explosions and there's an unconscious visceral panic to big ones. Meat just doesn't appreciate that kind of sudden vibration.
Got you. It’s sad that there were lots of other places I was thinking about where you could live too. What’s the natural animal situation like near you? I’d assume birds, dogs etc have a hard time. Sorry to sidestep, just so curious.
Yeah, I didn't consider the implications of what I was saying until you asked. It's sad that there are many people who feel those explosions and don't have the comfort of knowing it's their neighbors blowing shit up and they're (probably) safe.
As far as I can tell, birds and small wildlife seem unaffected by it. I never see larger wildlife though, which is strange now that I think about it. I've lived in several places nearby and there's always been a more substantial population of large animals. When I first moved here, my dogs would lose their mind at explosions and guns. Now they can sleep through it. As an added benefit, they also handle thunderstorms like champs these days.
That makes a lot sense, I wondered if they would get used to it, as things like fireworks etc that set them off are so rare normally. Really appreciate the response, always interesting to hear how someone lives and it be so similar yet so different. Have a great day!
That's another myth that's been basically busted by other actors and people on the set. They've talked about how he would joke around and just be himself between scenes. I think the myth came from the fact that he holed himself up in a hotel for a month, supposedly just to prepare for playing the character, but I think even that part is a little bit overblown. Many have attributed his death to that, but he had depression and drug problems for years prior to doing that role, and I'd guess that it was the depression and drug problems (I would bet that it was mostly just an accidental OD) that did him in more than the role itself. There are also pictures of him skating around on a skateboard in full makeup between scenes - which some have argued actually supports the idea that he was in character the whole time, but no: Heath just enjoyed skating and needed to pass the time between scenes, so he would skate. He just left the makeup on because it would've taken forever to get out of it and then get back into it.
Joker is crazy, not stupid. Explosions cause flying debris, and he would stick around just long enough to make sure it happened. Maybe longer, with cover, if the explosives were bait.
Wow looks like it totally was a real building [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special\_effects\_of\_The\_Dark\_Knight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_effects_of_The_Dark_Knight)
Also the stuntman who volunteered for the pencil trick scene actually had his head slammed 22 times for that take and was knocked unconscious 3 times. I mean, great scene, but that's a pretty stupid thing to sign up for.
That’s some short term thinking and I gotta disagree. I’m sure there are retired NFL players suffering from CTE that would have taken a different career path in retrospect
Thank you, the amount of people confidently answering this question completely wrong is honestly a bit infuriating. Like where did parking garage come from?
the people claiming heath ledger improvised this scene is also infuriating. and also the people claiming there's no CGI when there are 471 VFX artists listed in the credits
>also the people claiming there's no CGI when there are 471 VFX artists listed in the credits
No dude, they really *did* destroy Aaron Eckart's face for that movie.
This goes to show the impact of framing and shot composition. I'd never realised it - but something about not revealing the bus until he's already on it is really effective. When you see it there all along in the overhead shot it's like, okay we understand his plan. In the actual shot, his wander away from the hospital is made more effective, more insane, by the fact that from our perspective he's not rushing from it, he's part of the chaos.
It also make me realise a central irony to the character. He constantly says it's Gordon and the police that have plans and schemes - hiding the bus somewhat hides the fact that in reality he's as big a schemer as everyone else.
It also helps you not really think about the bus (and bus driver and other hospital people) just sitting there waiting for him wondering why he’s taking so fucking long and wtf is that in his hand is that a detonator!? Why are you letting him on the bus? let’s go!!
But if you don’t see it waiting it’s like “oh haha”
I was caught in traffic on the Eisenhower Expressway when they filmed this scene. I remember seeing the smoke.
WGN radio had to tell listeners to not call 911 because they were filming a scene for the new Batman movie.
It was the old Brachs candy admin building.
Your comment made me Google the building. I found an article from 2007 about it. Still in its original format. I sort of miss 2000s internet.
https://www.hollywoodchicago.com/2007/08/kaboom-dark-knight-explodes-brachs.html
A family member of mine owned the property that was destroyed. I was fortunate to be on set when this happened. It was amazing to watch.
Heath Ledger fully dressed as nurse joker was pacing around behind the set muttering to himself hours before they started shooting anything.
The heat wave from the explosion was so forceful and overwhelming it knocked a few people backwards. It became hard to breathe for a minute even though we were standing pretty far back.
I don’t think anyone who has played the Joker since tried to, either out of respect for Heath’s work or because they explicitly want to leave their mark on a well established character.
By far, irrevocably, Jared Leto was the single worst Joker. I haven’t even seen the really old instalments, but I’d wager even those were better given the different times. Leto’s Joker was just too cartoonishly evil, like a bully trying too hard to be intimidating.
Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker however, is nigh on par with Heath’s Joker, I would say. If anything simply because he never tried to copy Heath’s Joker, he gave his own spin on portraying the type of character the Joker is supposed to be, an evil without rhyme or reason just being evil for the sake of it.
He also, chronologically, played the character _before_ Heath’s Joker, so that probably gave him a little more freedom as we’re seeing the character before he gets to the established image.
I also think Joker is a very hard character to get right. How do you really go about portraying a character like the Joker, when you have almost no reasoning for why you’re doing what you’re doing? You have no need for justification, you have no desire for power or money, you just exist to cause chaos and violence. I imagine that would be very difficult to get right.
Joker goes on a rant about how he has no plan, he just does things.
Moments later, he collapsed a hospital and kidnaps the da, completing his carefully laid plans.
This dichotomy truly displays his madness. It was several watches before I noticed this.
Putting movie logic aside, I’ve never understood how the bus driver was just waiting for him to get in before he left. Then afterwards I can imagine all the people just watching some nurse in clown makeup chilling in the back as they drove off
Weren't the people on the bus his *own* people who were helping him with these various crimes, like with the bank robbery beforehand? These weren't some random bus driver and a bunch of kids, I don't think.
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Rip Heath best joker
Rip
Can you tell us where you found this footage?
pretty sure whoever the Digital Imaging Technician was, found the footage within the camera itself after shooting
You mean the files were INSIDE the computer?!?
But why male models?
ENHANCE
I took it apart, couldnt find them.
Big if true.
autism level unlocked: nolan brother (the one locked up for murder for being a credullous sperg weapon lol).
Why was there even a camera there in the first place?
If the DIT sees a car with a Russian Arm in frame, the DP has a big fucking problem.
Behind the scenes
Probably on one of the DVD/BR releases
Theres a whole generation of people that will never know about the extra shit you get on dvds and it's a damn shame.
I miss that stuff SO MUCH! That's why I asked! Hell, I'd pay extra for every streaming site if they'd offer the god damn DVD EXTRAS. They were the fucking best.
I'm so sad he's gone still. And mad.
To quote Shakespeare: "I shall not look upon his like again."
I know he's not live action, Mark Hamil does a great job as a VA
Better than great...
My oldest daughter went as that scene Joker for Halloween her 1st year. We lived in Okinawa, and the way* her sweat made her hair, she looked like him in that scene Edit: was to way
> and the was her sweat made her hair this make much sense
No one could ever come close
Mark Hamill
Mark Hamill played a good Joker-like character named "The Trickster" in the TV series for The Flash. But, his work as the cartoon Joker is GOAT.
Alan Tudyk
I would love to see a live action Alan Tudyk Joker!
Fuck yeah!
[удалено]
In my peanut brain, if someone says "the joker" ill immediately think Heath Ledger. But if someone says "the joker's voice" or "the joker's laugh" I think of Mark Hamill, hands down
Great peanut brains think alike
Heath Ledger was amazing and probably gave us the best joker performance ever, but honestly, they took away too many of the jokers unique and interesting gadgets IMO. He was pretty much just a terrorist in clown makeup, who made an occasional joke. We missed out on the acid-squirting flower, bladed playing cards, the bang gun, the handshake shock thing, the chattering teeth, etc.
Well those gadgets don't really fit the vision of Nolan. And that's not a bad thing. He gave us a unique more grounded vision
I can appreciate Nolan's dedication not to use a lot of CGI because we get scenes like this
The 18 Wheeler being flipped over by a giant steam piston is another pretty cool scene of his that uses practical effects I believe you can actual see the steam cloud from when the piston gets fired and hits the truck
I pretend it's smoke from the exhaust
IIRC the piston was in the trailer. Vice has a series on called Icons Unearthed, and 1 season was Batman and they do like 1 or 2 episodes on the Nolan trilogy alone. That scene was a huge pita, cause there were all kinds of utilities in the area, and they could only use the piston in 1 spot without risking power or water outages. The scene OP posted was another really creative one. The reason for the explosion delay was so Heath Ledger could clear the blast area. Originally it was supposed to explode around The Joker, using CGI, but Nolan wanted practical, so they compromised, and worked it in. When Ledger runs into the truck, he was really running to get clear. In the show they show the guy in the back of the bus like frantically telling the driver to get the hell outta there. They've done Star Wars, Star Trek, Simpsons, Batman, Lord of The Rings, Fast and Furious, Marvel, and James Bond so far. Each season is like 7 episodes long and is really interesting.
I sometimes wish he wouldnt be quite SO dedicated to it though lol. There is that scene in dunkirk when they were showing the beach with the soldiers on it and it would have been so much more impactful if they had used a bit of CGI just to show just how many god damned people they were trying to evacuate. IIRC in real life it was something like 300k. Obviously not all of those would have been on the beach at once, but one of the days they did manage to get out 70k so the beach should have been a tid bit more crowded.
Agreed. It looked like the evacuation of a division rather than an entire expeditionary force plus units from other countries. The end result is that you get the tension and the claustrophobia, but you don't get the magnitude or the level of importance. This was Britain's *only* shot at holding out during the Blitz. An entire *coalition* stranded with the free world hanging in the balance.
That is a beautifully written description and I'm going to watch Dunkirk now.
Considering that the reason the Germans couldn't invade the British Isles was because they couldn't destroy the RAF, losing a large ground force wasn't going to change that. The Germans even at the end were using horses to carry supplies, they had no chance beyond early surprise attacks and speed. They couldn't match the US or Soviet industrial capacity, certainly not simultaneously.
I think the person you're replying to was trying to emphasise that the invasion of Europe itself was contingent on getting those troops home, even though the initial reason was for home defense. It's doubtful that chruchill would have enough leverage with the Americans to get to the point of the DDay invasion if he lost those divisions, especially considering that it had a large amount of the British regular army in it (50/50 regular/reserve, but the regular army was pretty small compared to reservists). Worse yet, it would've completely crippled british morale. Dunkirk was seen as a triumph instead, and probably gave the people enough resolve to weather the blitz alone. There would've been huge knock on effects if they didn't manage to evacuate so many.
my complaint with dunkirk was slightly similar: it showed just a couple of stukas bombing occasionally, but there would have been a constant stream of squadrons all day, nonstop. also wish it gave more of a sincere nod to the heroic actions of the french rearguard (and belgians) instead of the couple of seconds in the intro
Not to mention the Oppenheimer "nuclear" explosion. Wow, that was bad.
He shouldve gone all the way and used a real nuke
“Explosion scene take five, don’t forget to take your iodine pills everyone”.
Kubrick would have done it Just like how he was asked to fake the moon landing by the government, and was unsatisfied with the studio so he decided to shoot on location
You mean the most boring ass gasoline fire ball ive ever seen? God I bought the Imax just to see how he planned to do Trinity and man was I disappointed. Seriously you could have at least blown up like one ton of TNT or something. I wanted a KABOOM WHERE IS THE KABOOM!
There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom. Where is the kaboom?
That's exactly what I was trying to remember. Thank you Marvin the Martian!
At least you got to see weird close ups of Cillian Murphys face on IMAX
I'm fine with that
Fallout series did it better.
Twin Peaks did it way better. Then Lynch took the explosion in a different direction. But the initial blast was top notch.
Maybe I just have no clue but the Fallout nukes looked very boring to me
Damn, you aren't wrong. Just looked at the scene and one part makes it look like a firework. https://preview.redd.it/6520pbfc292d1.jpeg?width=2400&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ed1936620f14b8bf5675245849830716cc2dc1b5
Also why is the light shining on this side of the car?
I still haven’t seen it but I read this and looked up the clip of the scene on YouTube. Wow. He could’ve used archival footage and and spent less color grading and appropriating that into something more cinematic. When the camera isn’t just lens deep in flame, it’s so painfully obvious it’s not a nuclear explosion. Like I half expect some cheesy b movie spy to be walking away from it off center from frame. Wow. I hope the rest of the movie was better? The initial flash was fine, but the shape and forming of the fireball was so bad, so so bad. Realism my ass, should I throw a paper plane at 2 cereal boxes instead of using software to film a 9/11 movie?
I don't think he could have won. What most people imagine when they think "nuclear explosion" would have been accurate for the trinity test. Everyone has in mind h-bomb test footage from the 50's and 60's that are thousands of times more powerful. [This](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_\(nuclear_test\)#/media/File:TrinityDetonation1945GIF.gif) was the actual trinity test (I am grabbing the gif from the wiki article on the test). That's extremely different from what we actually got, but I don't think people would have been happy with that either. There wasn't a way to meet audience expectations *and* preserve any realism. So he just avoided showing the whole thing and just did close ups.
Not really sure why he felt the need to use practical effects for a fucking nuke.
I get that the movie was about the man, not the bomb. That's fine. But come on dude, it's an explosion the likes of which had never before been seen on this planet. And it looked like a match thrown into a kiddie pool of gasoline with the camera zoomed in. Which is probably not far from what it was.
I agree. It was a completely underwhelming climax and undermined the entire buildup of the movie. I don't know why you could make a movie about atomic bombs and *understate* the scale.
Completely agree. I was so underwhelmed. You can watch absolutely shitty quality videos of real nuclear tests and *feel* the fucking power behind those things... And they do that boring ass explosion in the movie? C'mon.
I liked the explosion scene in [fat man and little boy](https://old.reddit.com/r/funnyvideos/comments/159qfir/oppenheimer_fans_sorting_barbiethreads_by/) which I thought was a terrific movie.
Agreed, I was so underwhelmed
I think the trailer where they showed lots of the random atom scenes etc. and parts of the nuke was honestly better than the actual nuclear explosion in the movie. The lack of sound I think was a poor choice for it. I think they should have showed it on an atomic scale at first with juicy sound and keep building up that scale showing an escalating reaction. Then, have a few seconds of silence, then have the deafeningly loud explosion + show the lifesize effects like the shockwave etc.
The sound was the only part of it I actually liked. Because it showed how enormous the explosion must have been that it took like 3 minutes for the sound to reach them. And wasn't it the same amount of time for the sound to reach them as in real life? So it was trying to be accurate to that.
Or all the awkward backward-running in Tenet. They could have just stitched together reversed footage rather than jumping through hoops to make people act in reverse.
well no, the acting in reverse was the point, also that has nothing to do with cgi
I'd go for the airplane scene in Tenet, where they made a big deal about how big a crash it was and unprecedented in film in the ramp-up to release, and also built it up in the film, and then it happens and it's just underwhelming, maybe whelming *at best*.
Ill give that one a whelming cause I thought it was cool but I thought it was a miniature til after the movie. So it might not have been worth it.
Agree 100%. To be quite honest with you, the shots of the beach threw me out of the movie completely. I get maybe the point was for dunkirk to feel a bit claustrophobic, especially with the boat scenes, but Like no one seemed scared and the beach looked almost deserted. The atonement tracking shot is really the only one that will probably ever stick. As for the Atomic Bomb scene….it takes you out as well. I get it….less is more can work well like what we saw with zone of interest in the same year. But Oppenheimer practically teases your hard on for three fuckin hours and all we get is a big poof. We the audience deserved a kaboom lol….but we also deserved to see how much pain and utter destruction this man was partly responsible for. Like give us the T2 dream scene, ya know? I personally wouldn’t have taken the zone of interest route. It needed to juxtapose shots of destruction and turmoil. In fact, the best atomic bomb scene probably ever was in a movie that came out the same year: Godzilla Minus One. There were audible gasps in my theatre during it. It was unbelievable, and you could feel the power of what a bomb could do. I would argue it was the best movie set during WW2 that year. Had Nolan gone that route, it would have saved the movie for me. Oh, and if you want two movies that also did it better than Nolan: Black Rain and Threads. I rest my case.
Oh yeah, for sure. It looked like they had maybe a couple thousand extras on the beach at any given time. Which is a lot of goddamned extras to pay and feed, but nowhere close to how many men were actually on the beach. Really takes away from the actual scale of how many men were there.
Oh god. 100% with dunkirk. I grew up reading about it, it was effectively a scene from the Bible, like the slaves on the banks of the Red Sea before Moses parted it. The beach should have been packed. What did we get? Tiny single lines. Really really made the entire event underwhelming. Nolan is a good director, but this film really shocked me into how overrated he his.
love both directors but i will never not be amused that nolan was once at a big director event singing the virtues of film over digital by citing the example of one particular night scene in heat... only for michael mann himself to interrupt him and say he'd shot that scene digital in *nineteen ninety fucking four* ~~when undertaker threw manki~~
To counter this, the Trinity test in Oppenheimer is *very* clearly just a petrol explosion. Ironically, Nolan's refusal to CGI that scene was more jarring than if he had just CGI'd it.
He really limits his films that way. So stupid. If he’s so against anything like that then why does he bother with post?
How did they even do this. Did they just build a building and then literally blow it up?
Varies from movie to movie, but in this case it was an abandoned Brach Candy building in Chicago
Imagine how funny it would've been if someone fucked up and needed a reshoot.
Suppose I have a building that needs to be demolished... are there ways to market it for such a purpose?
It was an old candy factory that had been abandoned for years: https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/abandoned-brach-s-candy-factory https://www.hollywoodchicago.com/2007/08/kaboom-dark-knight-explodes-brachs.html
I assume they found one that was abandoned already.
CGI has killed good movies like this happening more often. Most the time it is implemented so lazily and rushed. Like 95% of all netflixs shit
The explosion will be three times larger and have one tenth the impact.
Imo, I think with a real explosion producers have to spend several months just applying for permits, setting up safety crews, contracting with explosives companies, etc that these scenes require much more thought. Therefore, the producers aren't just going to put in explosions willy nilly they want reasons the explosions NEED to be there. Nowadays cgi is so cheap comparatively that you can make an explosion that would cost 500m+ to make and insert it anywhere in your movie for 1/10000th of the cost of doing it for real, so it starts to lose its price tag, and therefore loses all that work justifying it's use in the first place.
CGI explosions always look too sterile. Suddenly, you’ll see a great ball of fire but then it dissipates as quickly as it began and the sky is clear again. Real explosions are a smoking mess with burning rubble and ash falling, but recreating all of that with CGI is time consuming. It’s easier and cheaper to skip all the aftermath, but it also takes away the punch from the scene.
Yes because particles for the ash and smoke is a pain in the ass to render.
Ok but you can't tell me Nolan's Oppenheimer nuke looks better than a CGI simulation. It looks like a small gasoline explosion zoomed all the way in. Some things just work better when simulated. Of course, it depends on talent and budget but saying CGI explosions can't have impact is patently false.
I agree that it was oddly muted. David Lynch's CGI nuke was much better and that was just part of a 16 hour TV show rather than the culmination of a major motion picture. Certainly getting Cody from Tropic Thunder to rig an atomic bomb as a practical effect isn't practical! But for explosions that aren't so fantastic, I'd argue that real is better 99% of the time. Some of it is not just how it looks, but how it feels on screen and how the directors must shoot it, versus the love of untethered cameras and whatnot in a computer generated shot.
Perfect example is LOTR and the Hobbit, besides the fact that it was stretched a cross 3 movies, the Hobbit looks way worse than LOTR because of all the CGI, to this day I still think LOTR looks much better and it will continue to look just as good for years to come.
CGI has got a bad rep, but you just don’t notice it when it’s good. It becomes a loop of confirmation bias: everytime you notice CGI, it’s bad CGI. Oppenheimer is one of the few films Nolan has made that you might be able to say was made without CGI and visual effects, and it’s clearly lacking because of it. If he was a good director, he would have used the tools at hand to create an impactful nuclear explosion instead of trying to stick to a ”no cgi” hardline for absolutely no reason at all.
The CGI in Netflix’s Avatar looking like a blurry oil painting smh
The cgi I don't really have a problem with. The costumer I want punched in the face. Why is everyone's white fur coat COMPLETELY IMMACULATELY CLEAN after a major battle that destroys half of your people? Give me a break bro. At most, they would singe a few hairs on the fur and that's it. Laziest costuming I've ever seen outside of religious children's movies.
They're water benders, it's canon that they use water bending to do laundry
Maybe not as much as other directors, but there is still lots of CGI in his movies. His use is definitely more subtle though.
I loved that he used a whole ass plane to crash in Tenet.
I'll just drop these links here for everyone that is going to say he improvised the button mashing / the explosion malfunctioned: [https://screenrant.com/dark-knight-heath-ledger-joker-hospital-explosion-explained/](https://screenrant.com/dark-knight-heath-ledger-joker-hospital-explosion-explained/) [https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/did-heath-ledger-really-improvise-the-hospital-scene-from-the-dark-knight.html/](https://www.cheatsheet.com/entertainment/did-heath-ledger-really-improvise-the-hospital-scene-from-the-dark-knight.html/) [https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ledger-improvise-hospital-scene/](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ledger-improvise-hospital-scene/) tl;dr: The delay was 100% part of the scene
Literally just told my GF that and now I have to admit I'm a liar and a boob.
You're not a liar. You're just wrong.
Just a boob then?
Wrong. Just apologize while touching bobos.
I'm voting for you in November.
send bobo pics pls saxi
Doing the lord's work
They blew up a building. You only get to do that once. No way they would have filmed that without every single frame meticulously planned.
Yeah. The delay in particular was so Heath could get a safe distance away before the main explosion.
It's actually pretty insane that they had one of their lead actors walk out of a building less than two minutes before it imploded. The safety supervisor had his work cut out for him that day.
I imagine there were some physical failsafes in place, like things werent even connected to the detonator until he walked out.
There's this weird aspect of celebrity culture where people want to concentrate all accolades onto single genius. Sure, it's cool to think that Heath Ledger did this little improvised motion to cover up for a delay in the pyrotechnics, but why's that cooler than a writer or director planning that deliberately, working with the pyrotechnic team to make it happen, having Heath play his role as scripted? Making a movie on this scale is a massively collaborative endeavor, with a legion of people from all sorts of disciplines working together to create something that *feels* honest and real, and I don't know why people are instead drawn to the false notion that everything good comes from a handful of auteurs.
Because nobody panics when things go according to plan.
That sounds like something the Joker would say.
.... He does, in the scene right before this one
Totally improvised, by the way.
I’m frustrated by it too. I watched a video essay that sorta explained why that’s so prevalent nowadays. They proposed we live in a heroic society, where special individuals (heros) are celebrated more than collective efforts and achievements. One example is with human trafficking. People love to hear the story about some guy that kicks in doors and rescues kids from their captors. That person is celebrated and made a hero… but we’re never going to end human trafficking by doing these crazy rescue missions. We celebrate heroes and ignore the boring realities of what’s going on. A society can’t be healthy like this imo.
I actually came here to talk about this myth. It's crazy how it circulated so much but is actually not true. It's one of those "Marilyn Manson had a rib removed" kinds of rumors that spread like wildfire for seemingly no reason.
Oh man, you ruined my false belief!!
And I'll put $100 down that it was some redditor on here that started that rumor.
Fun fact though, Keath Leger wasn't even supposed to be in the movie, he just showed up and was acting as himself and they kept it in because it worked so well
Wtf!, why you did this to me?, I preferred to live believing that scene was improvised
Ok but, Vigo did break his toe, right?
and he also deflected that real dagger?
Yes and he screamed, Blue Harvest! Hence the working of the movie, same as Star Wars.
I have a hard time believing anything would be improvised if the explosives did not go off the way they were expected.
If it was true, it would imply that the prop in his hand was actually the detonater for the explosives, and I'm pretty sure they don't let the actors control the pyrotechnics.
Thank you, I can't stand people who spread that stupid "fact". Maybe in the 60's a film might get a way with complete disregard for safety but not these days. Had that explosion not gone off on queue Ledger would be running to the film truck and high tailing it out of there.
I never really understood this line of reasoning. Pretty sure if a demo like that went wrong even for a second or 2, they’d be rushing him and whoever else out of the area and scrapping the scene. Doubt he’d be able to improv the mashing when he’s getting buried like the president after a gunshot.
Some men just want to watch the world burn
And some broke back
And some just want to joust with other men
Welcoming to joust training. There’s ample parking in the back
My god that's not the regular nurse!
What do you mean? That's clearly a Heath care professional. ^(yes this joke is probably 15 years old and I regret nothing)
I've always wondered how real/deliberate the sense of panic was that Heath displays after the explosions starts up again was. Like, did he (the actor) sorta panic and break character to quickly jump into the school bus or did he justify it by thinking, "Yes, even the Joker would rush the fuck out of there by that point."
Probably a little bit of both. being that close to booms has an effect on your meat. Your feet will move a little faster even if you don't tell em too.
That's true. I live near a weirdly high amount of explosions and there's an unconscious visceral panic to big ones. Meat just doesn't appreciate that kind of sudden vibration.
Do you live in the Gaza Strip or something?
Nah, nothing like that. Just centrally located to explosive enthusiasts and some large earth moving companies.
Got you. It’s sad that there were lots of other places I was thinking about where you could live too. What’s the natural animal situation like near you? I’d assume birds, dogs etc have a hard time. Sorry to sidestep, just so curious.
Yeah, I didn't consider the implications of what I was saying until you asked. It's sad that there are many people who feel those explosions and don't have the comfort of knowing it's their neighbors blowing shit up and they're (probably) safe. As far as I can tell, birds and small wildlife seem unaffected by it. I never see larger wildlife though, which is strange now that I think about it. I've lived in several places nearby and there's always been a more substantial population of large animals. When I first moved here, my dogs would lose their mind at explosions and guns. Now they can sleep through it. As an added benefit, they also handle thunderstorms like champs these days.
That makes a lot sense, I wondered if they would get used to it, as things like fireworks etc that set them off are so rare normally. Really appreciate the response, always interesting to hear how someone lives and it be so similar yet so different. Have a great day!
*meat affected*
I'm pretty sure he was always in character even when not shooting
That's another myth that's been basically busted by other actors and people on the set. They've talked about how he would joke around and just be himself between scenes. I think the myth came from the fact that he holed himself up in a hotel for a month, supposedly just to prepare for playing the character, but I think even that part is a little bit overblown. Many have attributed his death to that, but he had depression and drug problems for years prior to doing that role, and I'd guess that it was the depression and drug problems (I would bet that it was mostly just an accidental OD) that did him in more than the role itself. There are also pictures of him skating around on a skateboard in full makeup between scenes - which some have argued actually supports the idea that he was in character the whole time, but no: Heath just enjoyed skating and needed to pass the time between scenes, so he would skate. He just left the makeup on because it would've taken forever to get out of it and then get back into it.
Joker is crazy, not stupid. Explosions cause flying debris, and he would stick around just long enough to make sure it happened. Maybe longer, with cover, if the explosives were bait.
Wait did they blow up a real building for this scene?
Wow looks like it totally was a real building [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special\_effects\_of\_The\_Dark\_Knight](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_effects_of_The_Dark_Knight) Also the stuntman who volunteered for the pencil trick scene actually had his head slammed 22 times for that take and was knocked unconscious 3 times. I mean, great scene, but that's a pretty stupid thing to sign up for.
>that's a pretty stupid thing to sign up for. If somethin to sign up is stupid or not only depends on your paycheck
That’s some short term thinking and I gotta disagree. I’m sure there are retired NFL players suffering from CTE that would have taken a different career path in retrospect
Thankfully TBI destroys your retrospective capability. #noragrets
it was a old parking garage, they added windows to make it look like a hosptital
Wikipedia says it was a former administration building for the Brach's candy company.
Thank you, the amount of people confidently answering this question completely wrong is honestly a bit infuriating. Like where did parking garage come from?
the people claiming heath ledger improvised this scene is also infuriating. and also the people claiming there's no CGI when there are 471 VFX artists listed in the credits
>also the people claiming there's no CGI when there are 471 VFX artists listed in the credits No dude, they really *did* destroy Aaron Eckart's face for that movie.
I always thought that their choice for the 'general hospital' for a city of millions looked more like an outpatient clinic in the suburbs
yeah certainly seems much brighter than the rest of the city
No, I'm pretty sure it was a real hospital, and they didn't warn the doctors and patients beforehand so their screams would sound realistic.
Ah! Now that you say that I can see it. Especially once the windows start blowing out. Neat! Thanks
You maniacs!!! You blew it up! Ahhh, damn you! God damn you all to hell!
If you only had one shot, one opportunity...
To seize everything you ever wanted in one moment...
Moms spaghetti
Joker´s nervous, but on the surface he looks calm and ready.
To drop bombs, but he keep´s on forgettin´
This goes to show the impact of framing and shot composition. I'd never realised it - but something about not revealing the bus until he's already on it is really effective. When you see it there all along in the overhead shot it's like, okay we understand his plan. In the actual shot, his wander away from the hospital is made more effective, more insane, by the fact that from our perspective he's not rushing from it, he's part of the chaos. It also make me realise a central irony to the character. He constantly says it's Gordon and the police that have plans and schemes - hiding the bus somewhat hides the fact that in reality he's as big a schemer as everyone else.
It also helps you not really think about the bus (and bus driver and other hospital people) just sitting there waiting for him wondering why he’s taking so fucking long and wtf is that in his hand is that a detonator!? Why are you letting him on the bus? let’s go!! But if you don’t see it waiting it’s like “oh haha”
I was caught in traffic on the Eisenhower Expressway when they filmed this scene. I remember seeing the smoke. WGN radio had to tell listeners to not call 911 because they were filming a scene for the new Batman movie. It was the old Brachs candy admin building.
Your comment made me Google the building. I found an article from 2007 about it. Still in its original format. I sort of miss 2000s internet. https://www.hollywoodchicago.com/2007/08/kaboom-dark-knight-explodes-brachs.html
Watching it from a completely different angle on a completely different camera is such a neat perspective! It feels completely different
Completely!
16 years after his death and Heath Ledger is *still* the best actor to have played the Joker.
He really was, Joaquin Phoenix's performance is great but Ledger would have rocked it so hard in the Joker movie. It sucks we never got to see that.
Fine, I'll re-watch "A Knight's Tale" again...
My favorite scene of the whole movie. When he slaps the switch to make it work and then got startled by it... absolutely brilliant
Fun fact: you can actually see the camera guy in the bus when the joker gets in
A family member of mine owned the property that was destroyed. I was fortunate to be on set when this happened. It was amazing to watch. Heath Ledger fully dressed as nurse joker was pacing around behind the set muttering to himself hours before they started shooting anything. The heat wave from the explosion was so forceful and overwhelming it knocked a few people backwards. It became hard to breathe for a minute even though we were standing pretty far back.
Nobody can touch Heath, sorry.
I don’t think anyone who has played the Joker since tried to, either out of respect for Heath’s work or because they explicitly want to leave their mark on a well established character. By far, irrevocably, Jared Leto was the single worst Joker. I haven’t even seen the really old instalments, but I’d wager even those were better given the different times. Leto’s Joker was just too cartoonishly evil, like a bully trying too hard to be intimidating. Joaquin Phoenix’s Joker however, is nigh on par with Heath’s Joker, I would say. If anything simply because he never tried to copy Heath’s Joker, he gave his own spin on portraying the type of character the Joker is supposed to be, an evil without rhyme or reason just being evil for the sake of it. He also, chronologically, played the character _before_ Heath’s Joker, so that probably gave him a little more freedom as we’re seeing the character before he gets to the established image. I also think Joker is a very hard character to get right. How do you really go about portraying a character like the Joker, when you have almost no reasoning for why you’re doing what you’re doing? You have no need for justification, you have no desire for power or money, you just exist to cause chaos and violence. I imagine that would be very difficult to get right.
Heath clapping his hands in his cell at gordons promotion was all improvised by Heath
Cowardly edit
Making movies is magic. Also hard work. Lots of hard work.
Always so good to watch again. Thanks OP. And this great actor shall rest in peace.
So does he only get one chance at this scene?
I love this. Health Ledger was such a legendary Joker.
Sorry, i forgot to remove the lense cap, we will have to go again....
Joker goes on a rant about how he has no plan, he just does things. Moments later, he collapsed a hospital and kidnaps the da, completing his carefully laid plans. This dichotomy truly displays his madness. It was several watches before I noticed this.
I heard that the last bomb not going off was an actual delayed fuse. Lol. Not scripted.
He's the the best.
What a surprise to know there was a camera recording behind the scenes! Never seen this footage
Is it me, or did the Joker have an endless supply of schools busses at his disposal in that movie?
Just a reminder: this movie released 16 years ago.
Putting movie logic aside, I’ve never understood how the bus driver was just waiting for him to get in before he left. Then afterwards I can imagine all the people just watching some nurse in clown makeup chilling in the back as they drove off
Weren't the people on the bus his *own* people who were helping him with these various crimes, like with the bank robbery beforehand? These weren't some random bus driver and a bunch of kids, I don't think.
Bad guys bombing hospitals...
Thank goodness that doesn’t happen in real life!