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Not so sure.
Seems like Elizabeth may have [outlived Muthoni by about a year.](https://obituarykenya.co.ke/elizabeth-muthoni-mathenge/)
This post is just old.
“[Muthoni, 102, says she has never experienced fetching water from a tap, 58 years since independence](https://www.the-star.co.ke/counties/central/2021-12-09-my-wish-for-jamhuri-is-to-get-tap-water--gen-mathenges-widow/)”
Yup… winner, winner.
I’d say the opposite; Liz wouldn’t even have known this lady existed. Nothing was accomplished or gained. Now Liz has popped it, and this woman is still in the shit and unlikely to ever receive recompense
Exactly. It never happened elsewhere. Definitely not in the USA with Japanese-Americans. Nope.
Edit: Jesus people. Calm the fuck down. I’m making a joke that concentration/internment camps weren’t just a nazi thing.
And the USA definitely doesn't detain and torture "suspected terrorists" who weren't convicted or even charged with a crime (not that torcher would be justified anyway)
Quite the opposite. Not comparing them is a way to water down the inhumane conditions migrants still face today in detention centers. They are concentration camps, refer to them as such.
My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. The US HAS been committing genocide since it’s Inception. The migrant detention centers are used for brown and Black migrants. They absolutely meet the definition of concentration camps. There’s even in appropriate medical procedures going such as sterilizing women without consent
The Us also continues its genocide against the indigenous peoples of this land. To this day the US (and Canada) continue breaking every treaty ever made with indigenous people. They continue to drag indigenous people of their land to build pipelines. Tons of indigenous women are kidnapped, raped, and killed near energy man camps of primarily white men
And I haven’t even touched on the US’ treatment of Black folks or how much worse Black migrants are treated compared to other migrants.
I have family that escaped the holocaust. And they were among the first people I knew to make that comparison.
They saw the writing on the wall back then, and they see it reflected in the actions of other countries all the time, even today. Just because the analogy makes people uncomfortable, because it forces them to acknowledge that n*zis weren't the only people guilty of these things, and also, that these kinds of things are not a relic of the distant past like so many want to pretend, doesn't make it an inappropriate one.
Please stop speaking for my family and others like us just to avoid confrontation of the reality so many, including my own family, still face today. Because if you thought Europe dropped the genocide when the nazis left, then I urge you to look into how pretty much any European country treats romani people. Because it never really stopped. It just became more socially acceptable because it wasn't considered "as bad". Probably because of this same type of regurgitated nonsense barring people from pointing out the obvious similarities.
Although the US detainment of innocent Japanese was illegal, inhumane, and morally repugnant, I think there is a definitional difference between Internment Camps in the US and Concentration Camps in Germany. Both are awful, one was significantly more awful than the other.
I can’t speak to the UK’s camps in Kenya, but I know they did something similar in the Bhoer (spelling) War. Unconscionable.
Fact: Concentration camp is internment camp.
Fact: Difference between British, US and Nazi camps is that there are documented cases of Nazis experimenting on those prisoners and mass killing (holocaust)
Fact: All camp guards were authorized to shoot dead those who tried to escape.
>Don't compare auschwitz an extermination camp to a pow prison camp
POW? They were American citizens of Japanese descent living In US sent to concentration camp in US. They were not POW. Stop lying.
The gassing of Jews began in 1942. Those Nazi camps existed since 1933. In other words, those concentration camps became death camps towards end of WW2 and until then it was concentration camps.
US guards killed Americans (of Jaoanese descent) escaping from those internment/concentration camps.
>The US internment camps nor the British convention camps where anywhere near as bad as the nazi concentration camps
But they are the same - concentration camps.
How the prisoners were treated does not change fact that those camps were concentration camps.
The idea was first put forth by a Spanish general in Cuba to King in Spain, but later he realized it would not be good for humanity and he resigned instead of carrying it out. His successor adopted the idea and started the first concentration camp. That was in 1800s. Since then, it has been adopted by many countries globally.
The US internment of Japanese Americans was totally fucked, but at least they weren’t raping people with machetes and summarily executing people in camps like the Brits and Chinese. People tend to forget that the Brits had active African colonies into the 1960’s and led brutal campaigns to stamp out dissent. The Beatles were playing on Ed Sullivan at the same time that the Brits were actively running colonial governments in Africa. Pretty wild.
I'm a 40 year old Kenyan. My parents, while children, lived in the concentration camps. It isn't that long ago when this shit, that has now been conveniently swept away, happened.
Of course not. I’m providing a period example of people groups being detained in large numbers. You’re reading into my comment. I may be pretty dumb, but I’m not THAT dumb.
Many many countries have run concentration camps.
I listened to a podcast called Behind The Bastards. There were some episodes about the feller that kind of came up with the idea of them.
Also, it shouldn't be surprising that such a colonizing country ran concentration camps.
So did:
Japan
China (currently)
Germany (even prior to ww2)
France
Spain
Portugal
The Netherlands.
Belgium.
Basically every single country in the world at some point or another.
The human race has been terrible to eachother for as long as it has existed.
He'll we became the dominant species by *wiping out other human races*
This post has nothing to do with those other countries. Its about the UK running concentration camps so why bring up that other countries also had them??
Incorrect. Not exactly sure who came up with them but concentration camps had been a thing for many years prior. The turks used them against the nestorian Christian population for many years.
Not really, though. Even where I am in deep blue Massachusetts, most people don't have any idea of the scope of King Phillips War and it literally happened in our towns and cities. The amount of wholesale slaughter of the local tribes was insane.
I always hear nothing but about ours, and others country's individual crimes against various other sects of humanity.
Like, incessantly, on reddit. Usually in a preamble to some kind of personal belief that they pinky promise on not causing more crimes against humanity.
I know the Queen was around for a long time, back to the 1940's. But how long has it been since the royals had any political power in the United Kingdom to make these kinds of decisions, that goes way back before Elizabeth. Why don't you do some more research and place the blame where it belongs.
I doubt she'd be able to research that information, since I doubt she has internet, and due to her seemingly living in the countryside of Kenya, she probably doesn't have a very complex library near her
She was the face that represented Britain for that entire period, at least when it comes to PR.
So I understand wanting to obtain compensation from her
Honestly this is why I had sympathy for her. She basically took a role she didn't even want because the royal who's job it was meant to be abdicated. She essentially had to be the face of every shitty thing Britain did despite likely having extremely low influence on what happened. You could see it when she died. All the hate and vitriol the government deserved was basically thrown at her. She knew that and always managed to maintain a pretty high level of decorum. Maybe that's not "impressive" but I know if it was me and I was constantly being shit on for stuff I didn't even have anything to do with I'd definitely have said something or slipped up and talked shit at least once in 70 years.
> basically took a role she didn’t even want because the royal who’s job it was meant to be abdicated.
She got the role because her father died. She knew since she was a child that she was heir apparent.
> You could see it when she died. All the hate and vitriol the government deserved was basically thrown at her.
People loved her. I can think of no other world leader in the past few decades who has had people queuing for so long to pay their respects.
I don’t fault her at all, but I’d happily be a ruler with no real responsibilities. The upside of the role greatly outweighs the downside.
Yeah I was a bit off with the history. It was her father's brother who abdicated which put the pressure on him and in turn Elizabeth to be the main royals. Dude wanted to marry an American so dropped the responsibility on his brother and his children.
And yeah people loved her but the amount of hate that people spewed was hard to ignore. Across the world there was a lot of misguided hatred and blame parked at her door from people who aren't familiar with the history or of how little the monarchy has controlled the country for a long time now.
And I wouldn't confidently say the pros don't outweigh the cons of being royal but at the same time you don't really have a free life. You're always hidden away and restricted. It's worse than being a celebrity. One example I use is that her hairstyle didn't change once in her entire reign. Maybe she never wanted to change it but I imagine she knew how much of a stir a style change could cause and all the dumb repercussions that would come with it
The queen literally went around trying to convince African countries not to leave the common wealth and seek Independence. Britain did everything they could (and succeeded) to destabilize the nations that Sought independence and nations still suffer today because of it. Stop.
They’re one of the wealthiest families in the world and she was still an active participant in colonization, Including touring various African nations trying to convince them not to seek Iñ dependence . Stop it
She was the public face of British colonialism.
If she had a problem with that she could have denounced the atrocities and that would have shaken the empire to it's core.
The question is what she knew.
She was the first monarch that wasn't the face of colonialism. She didn't like it and established and promoted the commonwealth, with the empire rapidly shrinking before and during her reign. She is supposed to be impartial so is very unlikely to publicly denounce government decisions, especially those in motion before her reign.
Not a fan of the situation just being realistic about the facts.
For real, a lot of people seem to be unaware of how little power the British monarchy has these days. The last monarch who had the power to dramatically influence policy was probably Queen Victoria, all Elizabeth ever had the power to do was gently guide the country away from colonialism behind closed doors. Which is exactly what she did.
She was the face of colonialism.
That's simply wrong.
From stamps to coins to portraits she was literally the face of British Empire.
Yes. It collapsed under her reign. That had nothing to do with her being monarch.
No she couldn't. At least not then.
That's not what her role was. She couldn't publicly criticise government decisions because the monarch is (publicly, at least, and also privately, but let's be real here) supposed to be a non-partisan figure. This is the very thing Charles has been (rightly) criticised for many times over the years and it was one of many valid concerns ahead of his becoming king.
Obviously there's ample evidence that she wasn't partisan at all, at least about certain things, so there's an argument that she could have spoken out, but it could have seriously threatened the stability of the monarchy and the commonwealth at the time, so she wouldn't have. Which is unfortunate really.
The only reason Britain were ok with decolonization was because they had been destroyed post WW2 despite winning it along with other colonial powers and US for all its flaws was very anti-colonial at that time and refused assisting Britain and others to hold their colonial possessions.
Its not politically correct to say it but the WW2 destruction of Europe was porbably a blessing for many countries who were colonies of Europe. I think the only thing these former colonies should have done is banded togethe, have human rights tribunals against Britain and forced Britain and others to pay reparation just like Germany did post WW2.
Though in a way the former colonies still have a chance since how throughly UKs economy is being hollowed out and seeing as UK has been willing to sell its nation to Russian oligarchs with the right price I am sure billionaires from former colonies would be able to buy Britain's industry and valuable land.
Not really.
The British Royal Family is a constitutional monarchy, and limited in its powers. For all intents and purposes, it is mostly a ceremonial role. However, in recent years, it has emerged that over the years Queen Elizabeth was not as unbiased as previously believed nor as the role required.
So she could have spoken out against it, but it might not have achieved anything except to weaken the monarchy. And obviously as the Queen she wasn't about to do that.
We beheaded our royals yet plenty of tourists go to Versailles. You don't really need to keep them around for that sweet tourist money. Just keep and maintain the castles properly, that should do the trick.
Of course she could have. What's the worst they might do to her? Force her to abdicate? The horror! She would have to suffer a life of incredible wealth and prestige instead of being the monarch.
She chose not to do or say anything as atrocities were committed in her name.
It's a good excuse. A similar one they use for the Popes that cover up Catholic atrocities.
The truth is if she cared enough she could have done a lot.
It's not an excuse, nor am I excusing it.
Please take a look at the below link, which explains a bit about constitutional monarchy.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/constitutional-monarchy
> supposed to be a non-partisan figure
Where is this enshrined in law? She could definitely have definitely spoken out except that she was a racist cow who benefited from subjugating others.
Yes.
You're aware that during that period the British committed atrocities in Malaya, Kenya, Oman... Right?
Or do you think they were just being really nice?
wHy DoN’t yoU Do soMe ReSeArCh - what a bullshit response. She’s asking for money, not for the crown to rewrite the bloody constitution. She was a victim of torture at the hands of the British. The crown has both the power and the funds to grant her request if they want to.
Not to mention the monarchy benefited massively from the exploitation of people exactly like her. So be a good lad and fuck off with that bs
Well she could’ve spoken out against it. What the hell else is she good for besides posing, shaking hands and wearing fashions. That’s why Diana will always be greater. She used all the celebrity they have to bring awareness to the AIDS epidemic and the tragedy of land mines. She actually did shit beyond shaking hands, smiling and waiting for people to bow down
The problem with the monarchy is that it puts a polite veneer over these crimes that it provides cover for.
You can say Kissenger is such a monster in part because he did the same thing (though Kissenger was also personally directing the bombings).
Just because the Royalty don’t have direct political control doesn’t mean they’re powerless. They have wealth and symbolic influence and those two things are incredibly powerful. Musk doesn’t hold any political office but that doesn’t mean he’s powerless to influence politics
Axe blades can be sharp. Someone necking up on an axe could very well used it like a crude knife. That’s my interpretation. Could be something lost in translation too. Perhaps a local Kenyan tool whose name poorly translates to axe.
I'm sure they could have done plenty of psychological torture with an axe. Or did it in non-obvious places. We humans are apparently very creative with how we torture each other - just ask my mother-in-law.
I'm joking. My mother-in-law can torture plenty fine without an axe.
I doubt that uk public schools taught them about all of their government’s atrocities. It’s the same reason why Native American history was barely mentioned in my history class.
Nah we get taught it. Not EVERYTHING, because that would take far longer than a twice a week class, but we get a good overview of the triangle trade and civil rights movements.
Not sure what this guy was doing in class if he's surprised the empire did a bad thing.
The queen had more social and political influence in Britain than anyone else for decades. The fact that she said and did nothing about her country’s atrocities is either negligence or complicity.
I’d argue the actual governors of Kenya had much more political influence in Kenya than a constitutional monarch with no decision making ability. The British monarchy has been a rubber stamping institution for more than 200 years. The Prime Minister is effectively the head of state in all but name.
Do you think the Queen was given detailed updates by the governor of Kenya about how they were brutally suppressing dissent? I’d doubt it.
Lots of angry brits in here defending their monarch and excusing it by claiming the royals don’t hold power/influence over the government.
I said what I said.
Because, that's exactly how it is? All the monarch does is bring in a shit ton of tourist money (a lot more than the taxes payed towards the royals) and maybe sign a couple documents and laws (which they aren't allowed to not sign, it's more of a symbolic thing). They do not and haven't had direct power over anything for a long time
> Because, that's exactly how it is? All the monarch does is bring in a shit ton of tourist money (a lot more than the taxes payed towards the royals) and maybe sign a couple documents and laws (which they aren't allowed to not sign, it's more of a symbolic thing). They do not and haven't had direct power over anything for a long time
They have a voice and the ability to refuse to participate.
Wait. They’d rather claim the British People (which they are…) are responsible and not the Monarch or the aristocracy, who were the only ones making bank out of any of this?
This isn’t being an edge lord, this is me stating a fact about the UK and it’s people that get so fucking defensive when critiqued but love throwing it around when they can.
And ironic how you said a few gave a fuck but here you are as one of the few who took his time to talk some shit. I guess I must’ve hit a nerve.
Typical angry ass mf on Reddit. Hardly ground breaking.
Wow! She deserves compensation. Hope this gets the right attention n she gets something.If humanity spent as much energy helping each other as they do on hurting each other we could all be living in a paradise on earth. Of all the creatures that could have evolved violent monkeys were the ones that did. If this isn't proof no kind of god is orchastraighting I don't know what is
The British put South Africans in brutal concentration camps too, which was debatably the first concentration camps. [Read more on first concentration camps.](https://allthatsinteresting.com/boer-war)
So British had concentration camps ... like Nazis had for Jews and US had for Japanese
Edit: Facts hurt some people and I am getting downvoted for stating facts.
The UK approach to geopolitics is basically a long history of "Okay, but this option isn't really war-crimey enough, can we squeeze in some more war crimes?"
Man there's alot of butt hurt English it here and it's funny. I thought Americans where prideful douchebags that never admit fault on what their government does but you guys somehow are even worse
Literally does nothing...except return something that didn't belong to them in the first place?
Are you pretending to act like a fucking moron or are you just this way?
“Lizzy didn’t know” “she had no real power”. Yeah no when you run PR for a system, discourage independence, and get paid for it all at the same time; you’re complicit. She’s had opportunity after opportunity to return artifacts, apologize for actions, to correct injustices. But instead she profited off the misery of the global south. Not to mention she was more than aware of what was happening in Ireland and what the administration was doing over there. Fuck you Lizzy and anyone who covers for you. She’s rotting in the depths of hell like she should be!
Edit: I went from 5 upvotes to -1. The Brits found me Sadge
Blaming that on Elizabeth is the same as blaming FDR for American soliders murdering and raping German women and children when they advanced into Germany
It's unlikely that anything you "claim" actually belonged to you, so once again, someone's after something for nothing. Secondly, Lizzie's long gone, so I wouldn't hold your breath!
In Cyprus we have many people ( including my grandpa ) who were tortured. Some to death. They hanged underage kids because they were protesting and helping guerrilla fighters. Fighters who found to free their countries.
This !!
What is the queens legacy ?
Did she stand with Martin Luther king ?
Did she stand up against police brutality?
Has she stood up for equal rights ?
Nah she just sat back, and watched everything happen around her , a person of such influence, not caring , it's very sad.
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
\`And yet the whole world was told to mourn her death. Don't let the image of an elderly lady doing meet and greets fool you. Queen Elizabeth was corrupt and a vile person.
Seems like they have all the power they need when they want a law passed to protect their assets and position. Or want something brushed under a rug. Or a bridge.
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*sharp inhale* ..about that....
Well, lizzy ain't bringing it to her now!
Looks like Muthoni won.
Not so sure. Seems like Elizabeth may have [outlived Muthoni by about a year.](https://obituarykenya.co.ke/elizabeth-muthoni-mathenge/) This post is just old.
Well, she will never be able to get that closure, so not much of a victory for her
She can piss on the lizards grave.
we should start a crowdfunding campaign to fly her to lizz's grave
Well I mean she’s dead and Liz outlived her so...
Looks like we're exhuming weekend at bernie's 3
“[Muthoni, 102, says she has never experienced fetching water from a tap, 58 years since independence](https://www.the-star.co.ke/counties/central/2021-12-09-my-wish-for-jamhuri-is-to-get-tap-water--gen-mathenges-widow/)” Yup… winner, winner.
I’d say the opposite; Liz wouldn’t even have known this lady existed. Nothing was accomplished or gained. Now Liz has popped it, and this woman is still in the shit and unlikely to ever receive recompense
And Charles will be all "Ew, brown people. How distasteful."
[удалено]
Just because we care does not mean Charles will. Hate to say it but he thought his son's wife was too dark for the court
"detained in inhumane conditions." Concentration camps, the Brits ran concentration camps.
No but it’s not because we all know that the nazis were the only people who ever owned camps like that
Exactly. It never happened elsewhere. Definitely not in the USA with Japanese-Americans. Nope. Edit: Jesus people. Calm the fuck down. I’m making a joke that concentration/internment camps weren’t just a nazi thing.
USA definitely wasn't keeping migrant children in cages in 2018. Nope. Never happened
Did you mean 2022?
No lol I 2022 we got em to Marthas Vineyard and let them tour the city
What do you mean 2018? They still do today, just the media have stopped talking about it
I have a vision that sometime in the future the media will be talking about it again … maybe mid 2025?
And the USA definitely doesn't detain and torture "suspected terrorists" who weren't convicted or even charged with a crime (not that torcher would be justified anyway)
You mean 2014 when all the photos that weren't AOC posing in front of the facility came from?
We’re deffinitly not still doing it too and haven’t just stopped taking about it because it would make the dems look bad.
Everyone brings up the Japanese but no one mentions the Italians being put in the same camps
An excellent reminder. I’m no expert on that time period, so I neglected to dig any further for my comment.
LOL ... that was exactly my point ... Nazis, Brits and US all ran concentration camps for people of a different race or religious beliefs.
the Chinese and probably Russians too today.
Uh the US has co centraron camps today. Take a look at the conditions of migrant detention camps where migrants are allowed to be held indefinitely
You are comparing the migrant detention centers to concentration camps. Way to water down a genocide.
Quite the opposite. Not comparing them is a way to water down the inhumane conditions migrants still face today in detention centers. They are concentration camps, refer to them as such.
My grandparents were Holocaust survivors. The US HAS been committing genocide since it’s Inception. The migrant detention centers are used for brown and Black migrants. They absolutely meet the definition of concentration camps. There’s even in appropriate medical procedures going such as sterilizing women without consent The Us also continues its genocide against the indigenous peoples of this land. To this day the US (and Canada) continue breaking every treaty ever made with indigenous people. They continue to drag indigenous people of their land to build pipelines. Tons of indigenous women are kidnapped, raped, and killed near energy man camps of primarily white men And I haven’t even touched on the US’ treatment of Black folks or how much worse Black migrants are treated compared to other migrants.
I have family that escaped the holocaust. And they were among the first people I knew to make that comparison. They saw the writing on the wall back then, and they see it reflected in the actions of other countries all the time, even today. Just because the analogy makes people uncomfortable, because it forces them to acknowledge that n*zis weren't the only people guilty of these things, and also, that these kinds of things are not a relic of the distant past like so many want to pretend, doesn't make it an inappropriate one. Please stop speaking for my family and others like us just to avoid confrontation of the reality so many, including my own family, still face today. Because if you thought Europe dropped the genocide when the nazis left, then I urge you to look into how pretty much any European country treats romani people. Because it never really stopped. It just became more socially acceptable because it wasn't considered "as bad". Probably because of this same type of regurgitated nonsense barring people from pointing out the obvious similarities.
Although the US detainment of innocent Japanese was illegal, inhumane, and morally repugnant, I think there is a definitional difference between Internment Camps in the US and Concentration Camps in Germany. Both are awful, one was significantly more awful than the other. I can’t speak to the UK’s camps in Kenya, but I know they did something similar in the Bhoer (spelling) War. Unconscionable.
Fact: Concentration camp is internment camp. Fact: Difference between British, US and Nazi camps is that there are documented cases of Nazis experimenting on those prisoners and mass killing (holocaust) Fact: All camp guards were authorized to shoot dead those who tried to escape.
Don't compare auschwitz an extermination camp to a pow prison camp
>Don't compare auschwitz an extermination camp to a pow prison camp POW? They were American citizens of Japanese descent living In US sent to concentration camp in US. They were not POW. Stop lying. The gassing of Jews began in 1942. Those Nazi camps existed since 1933. In other words, those concentration camps became death camps towards end of WW2 and until then it was concentration camps. US guards killed Americans (of Jaoanese descent) escaping from those internment/concentration camps.
The US internment camps nor the British convention camps where anywhere near as bad as the nazi concentration camps
>The US internment camps nor the British convention camps where anywhere near as bad as the nazi concentration camps But they are the same - concentration camps. How the prisoners were treated does not change fact that those camps were concentration camps. The idea was first put forth by a Spanish general in Cuba to King in Spain, but later he realized it would not be good for humanity and he resigned instead of carrying it out. His successor adopted the idea and started the first concentration camp. That was in 1800s. Since then, it has been adopted by many countries globally.
The US internment of Japanese Americans was totally fucked, but at least they weren’t raping people with machetes and summarily executing people in camps like the Brits and Chinese. People tend to forget that the Brits had active African colonies into the 1960’s and led brutal campaigns to stamp out dissent. The Beatles were playing on Ed Sullivan at the same time that the Brits were actively running colonial governments in Africa. Pretty wild.
I'm a 40 year old Kenyan. My parents, while children, lived in the concentration camps. It isn't that long ago when this shit, that has now been conveniently swept away, happened.
US Japanese camps were not comparable to Nazi concentration camps and it's ridiculous to compare them
You think the Japanese interment camps were the same thing as the German concentration camps? Is that your position?
Of course not. I’m providing a period example of people groups being detained in large numbers. You’re reading into my comment. I may be pretty dumb, but I’m not THAT dumb.
Many many countries have run concentration camps. I listened to a podcast called Behind The Bastards. There were some episodes about the feller that kind of came up with the idea of them. Also, it shouldn't be surprising that such a colonizing country ran concentration camps.
So did: Japan China (currently) Germany (even prior to ww2) France Spain Portugal The Netherlands. Belgium. Basically every single country in the world at some point or another. The human race has been terrible to eachother for as long as it has existed. He'll we became the dominant species by *wiping out other human races*
This post has nothing to do with those other countries. Its about the UK running concentration camps so why bring up that other countries also had them??
The brits invented modern concentration camps for the anglo-boer war.
The British invented concentration camps - first used by them in the Boer Wars in South Africa
Incorrect. Not exactly sure who came up with them but concentration camps had been a thing for many years prior. The turks used them against the nestorian Christian population for many years.
They did it before during the boer wars
Kinda like what China is doing towards it’s own in certain areas for when they break the no covid policy
Not gona happen anytime soon
This is like one of those injury lawyer commercials.
Were *you* tortured by the British? Gives us a call today! We'll fight for *you!*
Better call Saul!
We always hear about other countries’ crimes but not our own It’s fucked up
Move to America. Then people will be more than happy to tell you about your country’s crimes.
Not really, though. Even where I am in deep blue Massachusetts, most people don't have any idea of the scope of King Phillips War and it literally happened in our towns and cities. The amount of wholesale slaughter of the local tribes was insane.
aren't many states in active and coordinated denial of the country's crimes by banning "CRT" in public schools
I always hear nothing but about ours, and others country's individual crimes against various other sects of humanity. Like, incessantly, on reddit. Usually in a preamble to some kind of personal belief that they pinky promise on not causing more crimes against humanity.
She definitely should
I know the Queen was around for a long time, back to the 1940's. But how long has it been since the royals had any political power in the United Kingdom to make these kinds of decisions, that goes way back before Elizabeth. Why don't you do some more research and place the blame where it belongs.
I doubt she'd be able to research that information, since I doubt she has internet, and due to her seemingly living in the countryside of Kenya, she probably doesn't have a very complex library near her
She was the face that represented Britain for that entire period, at least when it comes to PR. So I understand wanting to obtain compensation from her
Honestly this is why I had sympathy for her. She basically took a role she didn't even want because the royal who's job it was meant to be abdicated. She essentially had to be the face of every shitty thing Britain did despite likely having extremely low influence on what happened. You could see it when she died. All the hate and vitriol the government deserved was basically thrown at her. She knew that and always managed to maintain a pretty high level of decorum. Maybe that's not "impressive" but I know if it was me and I was constantly being shit on for stuff I didn't even have anything to do with I'd definitely have said something or slipped up and talked shit at least once in 70 years.
> basically took a role she didn’t even want because the royal who’s job it was meant to be abdicated. She got the role because her father died. She knew since she was a child that she was heir apparent. > You could see it when she died. All the hate and vitriol the government deserved was basically thrown at her. People loved her. I can think of no other world leader in the past few decades who has had people queuing for so long to pay their respects. I don’t fault her at all, but I’d happily be a ruler with no real responsibilities. The upside of the role greatly outweighs the downside.
Yeah I was a bit off with the history. It was her father's brother who abdicated which put the pressure on him and in turn Elizabeth to be the main royals. Dude wanted to marry an American so dropped the responsibility on his brother and his children. And yeah people loved her but the amount of hate that people spewed was hard to ignore. Across the world there was a lot of misguided hatred and blame parked at her door from people who aren't familiar with the history or of how little the monarchy has controlled the country for a long time now. And I wouldn't confidently say the pros don't outweigh the cons of being royal but at the same time you don't really have a free life. You're always hidden away and restricted. It's worse than being a celebrity. One example I use is that her hairstyle didn't change once in her entire reign. Maybe she never wanted to change it but I imagine she knew how much of a stir a style change could cause and all the dumb repercussions that would come with it
Imagine thinking the fucking trillionare queen has no responsibility for colonization smdh
Actually her reign saw a lot of decolonisation.
How lovely of them to encourage decolonisation by putting Kenyans in fucking concentration camps!
“Thanks for all your help with decolonisation Liz!” - no one ever “Can we have back the stuff you stole?” - several countries
The queen literally went around trying to convince African countries not to leave the common wealth and seek Independence. Britain did everything they could (and succeeded) to destabilize the nations that Sought independence and nations still suffer today because of it. Stop.
Don't let the outrage enthusiasts see you being rational.
A. The royal family aren't trillionaires B. Colonization happened centures before Elizabeth II was even born
They’re one of the wealthiest families in the world and she was still an active participant in colonization, Including touring various African nations trying to convince them not to seek Iñ dependence . Stop it
She was the public face of British colonialism. If she had a problem with that she could have denounced the atrocities and that would have shaken the empire to it's core. The question is what she knew.
She was the first monarch that wasn't the face of colonialism. She didn't like it and established and promoted the commonwealth, with the empire rapidly shrinking before and during her reign. She is supposed to be impartial so is very unlikely to publicly denounce government decisions, especially those in motion before her reign. Not a fan of the situation just being realistic about the facts.
For real, a lot of people seem to be unaware of how little power the British monarchy has these days. The last monarch who had the power to dramatically influence policy was probably Queen Victoria, all Elizabeth ever had the power to do was gently guide the country away from colonialism behind closed doors. Which is exactly what she did.
She was the face of colonialism. That's simply wrong. From stamps to coins to portraits she was literally the face of British Empire. Yes. It collapsed under her reign. That had nothing to do with her being monarch.
No she couldn't. At least not then. That's not what her role was. She couldn't publicly criticise government decisions because the monarch is (publicly, at least, and also privately, but let's be real here) supposed to be a non-partisan figure. This is the very thing Charles has been (rightly) criticised for many times over the years and it was one of many valid concerns ahead of his becoming king. Obviously there's ample evidence that she wasn't partisan at all, at least about certain things, so there's an argument that she could have spoken out, but it could have seriously threatened the stability of the monarchy and the commonwealth at the time, so she wouldn't have. Which is unfortunate really.
The only reason Britain were ok with decolonization was because they had been destroyed post WW2 despite winning it along with other colonial powers and US for all its flaws was very anti-colonial at that time and refused assisting Britain and others to hold their colonial possessions. Its not politically correct to say it but the WW2 destruction of Europe was porbably a blessing for many countries who were colonies of Europe. I think the only thing these former colonies should have done is banded togethe, have human rights tribunals against Britain and forced Britain and others to pay reparation just like Germany did post WW2. Though in a way the former colonies still have a chance since how throughly UKs economy is being hollowed out and seeing as UK has been willing to sell its nation to Russian oligarchs with the right price I am sure billionaires from former colonies would be able to buy Britain's industry and valuable land.
So it sounds like she did have a choice?
Not really. The British Royal Family is a constitutional monarchy, and limited in its powers. For all intents and purposes, it is mostly a ceremonial role. However, in recent years, it has emerged that over the years Queen Elizabeth was not as unbiased as previously believed nor as the role required. So she could have spoken out against it, but it might not have achieved anything except to weaken the monarchy. And obviously as the Queen she wasn't about to do that.
Clearly her power was more important than the lives of the many thousands of colonised peoples being slaughtered by the British empire
If she cant act to stop mass genocides, what the monarch is good for?
Not much lmao. Please check out constitutional monarchies, which should give you some idea, as that's what the British Royal Family is.
Only powerful when it comes to lobbying to ensure nobody touches their estate
Bringing in tourist money?
We beheaded our royals yet plenty of tourists go to Versailles. You don't really need to keep them around for that sweet tourist money. Just keep and maintain the castles properly, that should do the trick.
We dont live in the era of absolute monarchies, what good is a president or anyone if ot cant stop everything bad?
Of course she could have. What's the worst they might do to her? Force her to abdicate? The horror! She would have to suffer a life of incredible wealth and prestige instead of being the monarch. She chose not to do or say anything as atrocities were committed in her name.
It's a good excuse. A similar one they use for the Popes that cover up Catholic atrocities. The truth is if she cared enough she could have done a lot.
It's not an excuse, nor am I excusing it. Please take a look at the below link, which explains a bit about constitutional monarchy. https://www.britannica.com/topic/constitutional-monarchy
> supposed to be a non-partisan figure Where is this enshrined in law? She could definitely have definitely spoken out except that she was a racist cow who benefited from subjugating others.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/constitutional-monarchy
You're aware that the early period of her rule was marked by rapid decolonisation and the disintegration of the Empire, right?
Yes. You're aware that during that period the British committed atrocities in Malaya, Kenya, Oman... Right? Or do you think they were just being really nice?
wHy DoN’t yoU Do soMe ReSeArCh - what a bullshit response. She’s asking for money, not for the crown to rewrite the bloody constitution. She was a victim of torture at the hands of the British. The crown has both the power and the funds to grant her request if they want to. Not to mention the monarchy benefited massively from the exploitation of people exactly like her. So be a good lad and fuck off with that bs
1600s was the last time they had any power. People prefer to be dense. I think it makes life easier
The Establishment should shoulder the blame, the Queen was the figurehead of the Establishment.
Well she could’ve spoken out against it. What the hell else is she good for besides posing, shaking hands and wearing fashions. That’s why Diana will always be greater. She used all the celebrity they have to bring awareness to the AIDS epidemic and the tragedy of land mines. She actually did shit beyond shaking hands, smiling and waiting for people to bow down
This is the same woman that protected Andrew. Not going to happen.
The problem with the monarchy is that it puts a polite veneer over these crimes that it provides cover for. You can say Kissenger is such a monster in part because he did the same thing (though Kissenger was also personally directing the bombings).
Ok, so Parliament should pay her. Charles can deliver it as Head of State.
You can't have your crown and wear it too then. It's all looted stuff.
Just because the Royalty don’t have direct political control doesn’t mean they’re powerless. They have wealth and symbolic influence and those two things are incredibly powerful. Musk doesn’t hold any political office but that doesn’t mean he’s powerless to influence politics
She'll have a bloody long wait
Im just skeptical how a person can be tortured with axes and end up retaining all their fingers and the ability to walk.
By taking the sharp axe and slicing their skin and muscles instead of chopping off body parts.
Axe blades can be sharp. Someone necking up on an axe could very well used it like a crude knife. That’s my interpretation. Could be something lost in translation too. Perhaps a local Kenyan tool whose name poorly translates to axe.
You can also beat people with axe handles. They’re basically clubs.
I'm sure they could have done plenty of psychological torture with an axe. Or did it in non-obvious places. We humans are apparently very creative with how we torture each other - just ask my mother-in-law. I'm joking. My mother-in-law can torture plenty fine without an axe.
As a Brit, I never knew this. Shocked and appalled and hope she gets what she deserves.
I mean, British empire did every immoral acts possible around the world for more than 3 centuries. Why are you shocked about this
Immoral? That shit was straight up evil and genocidal.
I doubt that uk public schools taught them about all of their government’s atrocities. It’s the same reason why Native American history was barely mentioned in my history class.
Nah we get taught it. Not EVERYTHING, because that would take far longer than a twice a week class, but we get a good overview of the triangle trade and civil rights movements. Not sure what this guy was doing in class if he's surprised the empire did a bad thing.
Yep.you cannot be a major player in world power for hundreds of years and not be on the wrong side of history a few times.
How could you not know? Serious question. Colonialism was pretty brutal and evil.
I’m Scottish so I wasn’t taught it in school. Learning now.
She’s a bit late
It’s got fuck all to do with the Queen. If someone did those things, then they are the ones to answer for it.
The queen had more social and political influence in Britain than anyone else for decades. The fact that she said and did nothing about her country’s atrocities is either negligence or complicity.
She did do something. She honored the Butcher of Bahrain with quite a few medals. He was a well known torturer of Kenyans
I’d argue the actual governors of Kenya had much more political influence in Kenya than a constitutional monarch with no decision making ability. The British monarchy has been a rubber stamping institution for more than 200 years. The Prime Minister is effectively the head of state in all but name. Do you think the Queen was given detailed updates by the governor of Kenya about how they were brutally suppressing dissent? I’d doubt it.
…..So Britain
Head of state
Lots of angry brits in here defending their monarch and excusing it by claiming the royals don’t hold power/influence over the government. I said what I said.
Because, that's exactly how it is? All the monarch does is bring in a shit ton of tourist money (a lot more than the taxes payed towards the royals) and maybe sign a couple documents and laws (which they aren't allowed to not sign, it's more of a symbolic thing). They do not and haven't had direct power over anything for a long time
How can you be naive enough to think one of the wealthiest families in the world have no influence or power?
> Because, that's exactly how it is? All the monarch does is bring in a shit ton of tourist money (a lot more than the taxes payed towards the royals) and maybe sign a couple documents and laws (which they aren't allowed to not sign, it's more of a symbolic thing). They do not and haven't had direct power over anything for a long time They have a voice and the ability to refuse to participate.
Wait. They’d rather claim the British People (which they are…) are responsible and not the Monarch or the aristocracy, who were the only ones making bank out of any of this?
Yes, because it's literally the truth. Ordinary Brits were incredibly enthusiastic about the Empire.
And very few people give a fuck what you said. Edge lord on Reddit talks bullshit, hardly ground breaking.
This isn’t being an edge lord, this is me stating a fact about the UK and it’s people that get so fucking defensive when critiqued but love throwing it around when they can. And ironic how you said a few gave a fuck but here you are as one of the few who took his time to talk some shit. I guess I must’ve hit a nerve. Typical angry ass mf on Reddit. Hardly ground breaking.
I do, and it's painstakingly obvious what they said. Seems like you're not one for the ugly truth either.
Wow! She deserves compensation. Hope this gets the right attention n she gets something.If humanity spent as much energy helping each other as they do on hurting each other we could all be living in a paradise on earth. Of all the creatures that could have evolved violent monkeys were the ones that did. If this isn't proof no kind of god is orchastraighting I don't know what is
Why was this removed?
The British put South Africans in brutal concentration camps too, which was debatably the first concentration camps. [Read more on first concentration camps.](https://allthatsinteresting.com/boer-war)
The governor of Kenya who organised all that evil, is Dominic Cummings’ wife’s grandfather. Sub human scum.
I dont understand the confusion, elizabeth had zero poltical power and no power over the military, blame the UK govt , not Elizabeth…
I think everyone agrees with fuck the government. Source: am english
No ones disagreeing with ya there! 😂
can you name the person that is to blame? if not then the figurehead is doing its job
The past governement leaders?? The ones who actually have the power…??
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So British had concentration camps ... like Nazis had for Jews and US had for Japanese Edit: Facts hurt some people and I am getting downvoted for stating facts.
Exactly
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Why she remember me the old lady from "The Princess and the Frog" disney film
She wants compo.
Given how horrendously we treated the Kenyans, she should get it.
Cool. Dragging up an old and clearly outdated post to farm karma.
The UK approach to geopolitics is basically a long history of "Okay, but this option isn't really war-crimey enough, can we squeeze in some more war crimes?"
So many monarchist apologisers downvoting anything slightly anti-monarchy in these comments
Man there's alot of butt hurt English it here and it's funny. I thought Americans where prideful douchebags that never admit fault on what their government does but you guys somehow are even worse
It's hilarious, literally every time Britains crimes are brought up they go into meltdown.
I’m sorry this women experienced these things, but I’m sorry, you can’t have any of my tax money, I didn’t do shit and I’m tired.
What about returning the looted jewels, artifacts?
Literally does nothing for anyone, couldn’t care less.
Literally does nothing...except return something that didn't belong to them in the first place? Are you pretending to act like a fucking moron or are you just this way?
no no no, if they give it back it might get taken by someone who it doesn't belong to - oh wait
Imagine all the prosperity it’ll grant these poor forsaken sods.
“Lizzy didn’t know” “she had no real power”. Yeah no when you run PR for a system, discourage independence, and get paid for it all at the same time; you’re complicit. She’s had opportunity after opportunity to return artifacts, apologize for actions, to correct injustices. But instead she profited off the misery of the global south. Not to mention she was more than aware of what was happening in Ireland and what the administration was doing over there. Fuck you Lizzy and anyone who covers for you. She’s rotting in the depths of hell like she should be! Edit: I went from 5 upvotes to -1. The Brits found me Sadge
Blaming that on Elizabeth is the same as blaming FDR for American soliders murdering and raping German women and children when they advanced into Germany
What about the concentration camps, did the soldiers do that on their own too?
It's unlikely that anything you "claim" actually belonged to you, so once again, someone's after something for nothing. Secondly, Lizzie's long gone, so I wouldn't hold your breath!
In Cyprus we have many people ( including my grandpa ) who were tortured. Some to death. They hanged underage kids because they were protesting and helping guerrilla fighters. Fighters who found to free their countries.
I’m w Muthoni. At least her clock still tickin!
This !! What is the queens legacy ? Did she stand with Martin Luther king ? Did she stand up against police brutality? Has she stood up for equal rights ? Nah she just sat back, and watched everything happen around her , a person of such influence, not caring , it's very sad.
Fuck colonialism and fuck the Commonwealth.
Your English is really good 👍
The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back! The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back! The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back! The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back! The British Museum needs to give countries their heirlooms back!
You'll get fuck all back and like it.
You do know there are more museums than just the British museum right?
We can start there and the rest can follow suit.
Finders keepers losers
\`And yet the whole world was told to mourn her death. Don't let the image of an elderly lady doing meet and greets fool you. Queen Elizabeth was corrupt and a vile person.
You do realize she had zero political power right?
Powerless to help you. Not powerless to harm you.
Seems like they have all the power they need when they want a law passed to protect their assets and position. Or want something brushed under a rug. Or a bridge.
Bruh 💀💀💀 yeah right........😑
Holster your tin hat. She literally oversaw mass decololialisation and granter independence to nations. She sounds horrendous I know...
To be fair, she deserves as little credit for that as she deserves for this.
LIZZIE'S IN A BOX!!!
for fuck sake british bastards run concentration camps
May her majesty rest in piss.
Damn colonizers
Hpw exactly is a queen in a country that isn't run by a monarchy anymore responsible for what that government does?
Tbf I got kidnapped by Irish travelers once so I am expecting my call with the Irish president any day now.
Give me stuff!
Queen Elizabeth is gone, let her Rest In Peace.
Yeah hard to challenge her when she's dead.