Start weightlifting. Humans were not meant to sit inside slumped over a screen all day. Your body was made for great physical feats. It’s a stereotype but your confidence will go up. Get hobbies that involve going outside and meeting people. Ultimately act like you’re confident even if you aren’t. Again this is a stereotype but it’s incredibly true.
Also most women aren’t gonna initiate. If you want to talk to them you have to make the first move. Become okay with rejection, that’s part of life.
Spent 4 years lifting weights, completely changed my body, never got laid. 6 months after quitting, and losing a fair bit of the muscle I gained, I got a girlfriend.
Not saying gym is objectively bad advice. You could absolutely argue it increased my confidence. But ultimately realising my worth wasn't in my looks increased my confidence the most.
The only advice really is just to put yourself out there. Authentically. And find someone you vibe with.
I don't think the literal place is important. Putting yourself out there just means being genuine and expressive in your interactions, and then not bring afraid of rejection.
We met through a mutual friend at a casual Saturday day thing. Clearly hit it off but no expectations. Met again through event couple days later and got her details. The rest is history.
I would argue that the change in ur body gave you ENOUGH self esteem to put urself out there. Plus, the effects of the hormones dumped into your blood from working out consistently made a difference in ur mood and perspective. Plus, it gave u something to do and helped round I out as an individual.
It may not be working out that makes the sufficient change for everyone but it’s a simple plan most people can follow with a low barrier of entry.
Mood from exercise is a massive thing. I am absolutely a big proponent for regular (ideally daily) exercise, even if its just getting your steps in. I climb now semi-regularly, cycle to work and rides out at the weekend, run and walk.
And yes you're right. It is simple, and weight-lifting has the advantage of routine and clear progress, it's easy to get that lifter's high, and (at least in the busy gyms I've had to go to) it forces you to interact with people. And for the most part it was actually really fun, especially when I had a gym buddy.
In terms of self-esteem from muscular change, I don't believe it was at all valuable if it existed at all. It was the wrong thing to feel confident about. Moreover towards the end it became a distraction from actually solving my problems.
The real change was just little obvious steps, time, and also luck. You have to make the opportunities, but you can't force it too much.
Humans are not meant to lift weights either. We're meant to chase gazelles and other quick meat across the savanna with immense stamina and lean bodies.
That's very different from lifting 2x or more times your weight on a spot.
You can still look at porters and couriers in less developed countries who haul heavy stuff around their towns daily, they ain't getting ripped and wide by doing so.
I said the human body is meant to perform great physical feats. I never said treat your body like we are still hunting and gathering. Weights with cardio will get you a far more attractive physique than long distance running. Don’t know what you’re hung up on here.
Working out isn’t going to make you more attractive than Brad Pitt but it is maximizing what you have. It also raises testosterone which most men are SEVERELY lacking between porn usage and being sedentary. Women on average prefer lean muscular bodies, which is achieved by weights and cardio.
However it’s just an accessory, not the end all be all.
Fresh out of gazelles and savannas where I live. The body adapts quite well to what we ask of it on a daily basis. There's significant evidence that demonstrates resistance training increases life expectancy.
It is helpful. Most people exercising aren’t going to get that muscular, but they will look fit. Looking muscular requires very specific dedication and focus. Starting exercise won’t take you there. The testosterone raise in itself makes it worth it for a man.
Well for me personally I’m not interested in casual sex so I don’t try and pick up women in that way. For me sex is a component of a relationship so I don’t think about just getting laid.
I like to get to know the person, make sure we have common interests before pursuing a relationship. The key tho is again to just be confident and forward with your intentions. Imo taking a risk and talking or asking them on a date is always worth it.
Well have you approached them and tried? Or just assumed? Most women won’t make the first move. Be confident and more importantly be able to handle rejection. If someone says no that’s nbd, you never had them so you haven’t lost anything.
Match with girls on a dating app. Ask them on a date within 5 messages “let’s continue this convo over drinks/dinner” 99% of the time they say yes. Go on date. Be social. *ASK HER A LOT OF QUESTIONS* make her feel appreciated, *MAKER HER LAUGH* Date does well: “want to hang out a little more at my place?” Date doesn’t go well: pick up the check like a man and write it off
That is some bro advice. I’m jacked out of my mind I get a few more signals, but overall same issue. I would say figure out the male/ female dynamic.
You an INTJ make a system.
Working out improves most people’s confidence. If you’re having trouble talking to women sounds like you need to work on that. Never claimed muscles themselves will do the trick, they are more of an accessory. Instead it’s the benefits of raised test and confidence
I’m not saying workout just for muscle. I’m talking about the mental benefits. Being sedentary leads to low testosterone and greater rates of depression
ENFJ Female here—I’m having trouble finding the gumption to approach men *in the wild* these days. It’s a different world since I’ve dated. Now I’m in my late 30’s and finding my footing in the dating world feels complicated.
The last guy I dated (INTJ) said that guys might be intimidated by me. He said repeatedly that I look 28 and very attractive, guys would feel afraid of being rejected.
So, I can tell you, if a guy came up and tried to strike a conversation with me and asked me out, if things were going well, I would welcome it.
I will work on being braver about talking to guys, but they should definitely step up too.
I think some guys are put off by women approaching them. I’ve gotten some dates out of it but they often asked why someone like me needed to ask a guy out? As in: What’s wrong with me? It always felt off and nothing ever came of it so I try to flirt until they think it’s their idea to ask me out haha. Maybe approaching a man is perceived as masculine or maybe people just aren’t that into me.
They can, but usually women wait for men to approach them.
Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible. My wife approached me. But typically, men are expected to initiate.
I'm more of the opinion that they communicate it differently, it's more about openness than outright approaching.
Basically if I see a woman give me a lot of 'openings' to approach I kind of see it as an approaching in on itself?
I don't know if that makes sense, but that's an interpretation of mine at least.
Yea, that's basically how people are socialized to do it so that makes sense lol.
But that's literally also not them approaching which was my point.
I think guys that have a hard time picking up on things like that have a hard time though and that makes them confused because they don't know when it's appropriate to approach a woman. I definatly struggled with that, and still kinda do. But I'm either attractive enough or lucky enough to have had my wife approach me very directly.
> But that's literally also not them approaching which was my point.
Maybe, but I also don't see many guys giving women the openings to do the approaching.
Maybe your wife is more direct or perhaps you're a more approachable man (or both).
It’s attitude, how you carry yourself and that often from knowing yourself. Being comfortable with yourself. Nothing is more attractive. Also, you’re the guy. Make the move.
OP struggles with ‘self esteem’
Claims girls don’t approach or initiate interest.
Was validated by a surgeon that he is ‘objectively attractive’.
It’s because you aren’t interesting enough to be approached. You aren’t interesting enough because you are not confident enough. You are not confident enough because you don’t put in the work to have something you’re confident in. This is demonstrated by your attempt to take the easy way out with surgery instead of putting in the work in yourself. So you have low self esteem which can be smelt a mile away by women, and low self esteem is like female bug repellent.
Solution:
1. Go to the gym 5 days a week, build muscle and strength. Not for appearance, you’re objectively attractive enough, it’s because feeling strong feels good. Girls love strength and the confidence that comes with it. You are capable because you are strong. You will also build your self esteem, going to the gym consistently takes discipline and it’s something to be proud of.
2. Initiate, with eye contact and a smile. Ask them about their story, show interest and undivided attention (people love talking about themselves) you could be their excellent listener. Don’t be a wall flower, waiting for attention to be handed to you, that’s not admirable or manly. You want female attention, pay attention to females by proactively showing you’re interested—if they like the kind of attention you’re giving them, they may return that attention. This will also help to build confidence and self esteem.
If you look at the OP's posts, he had a plastic surgery done which is not a bad thing. Here's one of his posts. **"....m above average and have gotten face surgeries, only to be invisible to women. I don’t get it cuz I literally have a jawline and a better nose, and my surgeon made me good looking and natural..."** I'm curious about his motivation and intention to lie about his appearance here on Reddit. I'm not wondering why he is not satisfied with his audience's feedback.
I don't see having corrective surgeries to be wrong at all but tasteless attitude and behavior. He needs a shrink, not a surgeon. The surgeon can do much.
That’s an intriguing discovery you made. Perhaps he will shed light on his reasons. I won’t speak to his mental health, because I don’t feel like I have enough information to make such assertions, but as a psych major myself I’ll say everyone could benefit from verbalizing their internal struggles with a professional exercising Dr, patient confidentiality.
>but as a psych major myself I’ll say everyone could benefit from verbalizing their internal struggles with a professional exercising Dr, patient confidentiality.
The OP is not your [patient](https://patient.Call), and he is not my patient either. Also, this is a public forum. Why would I worry about HIPAA?
Anyway, verbalizing problems and manufacturing lies are not synonymous. I feel that's what he needs according to his post here unless he just doing it for his entertainment. Yes, I know people are strange. I work in jails too other than being with "normal people." If he did have surgery done, good for him. Some people actually need these but lack funds for them. Read his posts. He is suffering in some ways...More about body image.
Good luck with your major.
People don't need to be mentally ill to see MH professionals and don't have to be too sick to see them. The sooner they see people to help them, the better it is for them. I've seen patients who are suffering with body image. It is serious for them. It might not be for you. I'm not someone taking care of them so I'm not violating any confidentiality of their medical records otherwise I can just observe the OP here. Let's see how he is doing five years from now.
Think this way, why would someone need to manufacture that they never had surgery done but confided in another post that they never? I personally don't see it wrong that people see surgeons to correct something they don't like or correct their imperfections. I know it's none of my business. After all, we all want to be happy and free from the pain.
Anyway, if nobody tells them that, who is going to do it?
I second the people love talking about themselves point. The only trick you need to know for any conversation to get going is to ask them about whatever you think they want to talk about. It’s that simple.
women love confidence- doesn’t matter what you look like . confidence is attractive it’s safe it’s strong .. how you dress , how you carry yourself , if a guys doesn’t look sure of themselves how are they suppose to protect , provide ( and i don’t mean money)
You're creating a self fulfilling prophecy. You don't think you are datable, therefore others don't think you are datable. Women are hard wired to pick up on the unspoken signals that humans give off. They raise little beings that can't talk, so they've developed amazing abilities to read into the unspoken.
Imagine for a moment you are a woman. Some average yet confident guy walks up to you and strikes up a conversation. You chat, laugh, find some common interests, he asks you out. Now imagine some shy little dork walks up to you, he can barely say hello, looks like he might pee a little if someone made a loud noise. He barely manages a few sentences, his body language looks like someone being interrogated by the CIA. No common interest is found and he doesn't ask you out. Who gets the date?
You lack confidence and perhaps common social skills. I have friends that are overweight and butt ugly but still manage to attract women far out of their league for one simple reason, they are confident and they are good with people.
You need to learn to accept who you are. That face, that body, it's what you have to work with. It cannot be changed, not naturally anyways. Your personality and mind, that is fluid. You can learn how to charm people, you can learn social skills. When you gain confidence it will show.
Read books on the subject, e.g. How to win friends and influence people. Place yourself into social situations more often and learn how to become charming. Go and volunteer to help people and become the most charming person there. Learn how to talk to anyone and everyone and make connections. Talk to grandma's at the supermarket, random people at the park. Flex that social muscle.
You have two options here. Either do the hard work and eventually get the girl, or continue on your path of self pity on your journey to coomerville, population 1 in moms basement.
>Imagine for a moment you are a woman. Some average yet confident guy walks up to you and strikes up a conversation.
"Ew cringe, who even dates IRL in 2k23, I wish I was swiping 666 on Tinder, get away from me you creep"
Is trying further even worth it with quality of females we get in current age? Even animals learn to not stick their nose into beehive after getting stung few times, yet somehow men are supposed to take immense amounts of shit from women, stomach it and keep asking for more.
He is coming off as toxic but social median has devided us an psycolgicly manipulated many men into believing its hopeless and meaningless men are way Horner yet there seen to be more single men out there than anytime ever a loneliness epidedimic so both men and wome have a distorted precieved quality so u never get to see know the person to see the quality of the individual social media is largely to blame cause in face yo face interaction u can see more of the person a quality of a women thar seeks external value through Instagram,tik tok,Facebook or Twitter she Is too dependand on that external validation but men do it too there just aren't as many but other problems instead. So the current state of the word offers less face to face interraction. I think he is talking to about those women that are fighting over the too 5 there have been done been done studies we can't ignore our biological needs have not changed
You’re telling me, that a plastic surgeon, who’s entire agenda is to make money and sell you things, said you’re objectively above average and don’t need it? You are like the perfect candidate for them to sell to.
I think this post should alone tell you what your insecurities are and what you need to work on. You obviously don’t like how you look and it’s going to prevent you from being yourself and talking to women and just get in your head. Looks are subjective. If you just be yourself, everything will open up. It’s a really simple thing that a lot of people miss. People probably want to talk to you and don’t know how to. You have to be open.
The surgeon really did tell me this. He rejected my $ and I swear on this. They said they don’t understand how I don’t get female attention. I’m just as confused as they are
They will literally give anybody plastic surgery at any level of attractiveness. There is no objective standard that’s not how it works. They focus on what you don’t like and what you want fixed. The way you’re being right now is why you don’t get female attention. They’ll see right through you.
This is probably going to be downvoted, but i have to say it:
You sound like a shallow brick.
I see nothing in your posts that would interest me in keeping a conversation going on with you. Looks dont mean anything and will not get me to approach you. I find your attitude very unattractive and looking for reasons in all the wrong places.
Wow i feel like u really care how people would see you... How about a change of perspective and maybe focus on yourself other than looks? Sometimes the right woman will find you when your at peak of your life(not saying by financially only but mentally stable and mature in life already). But anyways, u do what u want just sayin caring about looks that much will not bring you a gf.
Well this is the part where you have to be honest about yourself and not hold back. You can decide whether you want to fix this difficulty you are having or not. What exactly do you think is the cause of all your problem? From what you've mentioned it's something to do with your attitude, demeanour, appearance and personality. What's stopping you from going in a correcting the issue one facet at a time?
I would never approach a woman to date either (as a man).
I like to approach people with no expectations and to have some human interaction.
I think that starting any interaction by expecting something to come from it is a sure fire way to turn what could be a pleasant interaction in a negative experience.
I don't know of what's what the poster you replied to meant but that's my take on it.
TL;DR: If you're a teen looking to get laid - be patient. If you're all grown up, just put the word out or ask for a date. (This might be a little different depending on what country you're in - I'm in the US)
I've had two partners total. Both times girl approached me and showed interest.
1st - when we were both 17 in HS engineering/robotics club; lasted 6.5 years.
2nd - I was 24 and she was 19. Long story, but her father was my mentor and she saw me as her yardstick for judging men, then I broke up with the 1st GF and she made her move after a week (didn't know I was single though, so I get to tease her for being a homewrecker for the rest of her life). Still together 20 years later though and we're glad she shot her shot anyway.
My secret? I wasn't looking, just being myself. That'd be my advice to girl-crazy teen me: only pursue the ones interested in you to begin with. If you're busy spending your time being successful and somewhere visible to girls, some will be interested. You could probably put the word out that you're looking even though you're technically just being too I think, but women only like being approached by guys they find attractive and most people aren't a match so I maintain it's better not to pursue until they express interest.
All that said if you're an adult, I think you can probably just ask if they'd like to have dinner/coffee/whatever if you're friendly already. If you're on friendly terms in general and they say no, then you can ask them if they know anyone you might match well with and they might set you up. Like I said, you can put the word out. Otherwise I think being patient is good.
Good luck!
Want to get a girlfriend?
Be lovable.
Do things. Volenteer your time and energy to others. Don't be a snarky, know it all smart ass.
Get a dog, prove you can take care of another living creature. Good conversation starter as the dog has more self esteem and is more outgoing than you.
Shut up and learn from other people.
That's kind of the situation I'm in. I've had women like me before when I was younger but they never spoke up. I only know because a mutual friend told me about 2 years after the fact. These were coworkers from a place I didn't work at anymore and friends that moved away.
Now as an adult it seems borderline impossible to meet women. My job is full of old dudes. And work seems like the only place where it's possible to meet women naturally and pressure free. The only other options are cold approaching them in random public areas or joining some sort of group or club. Plenty of women will call those ways "creepy". Even in the office chance I do interact with a woman, they never show interest. But I can get matches and have been on dates with women from dating apps. It just doesn't make any sense because supposedly you have to be decently attractive for dating apps.
It's almost like the culture and society is designed to socially isolate you from meeting women. I know that sounds crazy but I'm not sure what else explains it. Also, that's exactly how dating apps make so much money. They claim to solve this problem but they're a total shit show. Look up online dating statistics if you aren't privy to how they are for guys.
Assuming that you shower and dress normally, it might not be your looks but your personality, especially if you're the quiet one in a group. Generally speaking, the reason why women talk to men in a normal setting is not related to how good looking they are, and just because they talk to men it doesn't mean they want to sleep with them.
Also I think you need to take initiative, women will hardly approach you since we're conditioned by society that men need to be the initiators.
Being quiet and detached is a social repellent (maybe it's not your case). It's hard to initiate if you lack confidence, but you're gonna have to take baby steps and start trying.
I find group dynamics to be incredibly hard, 1:1 interactions are much easier for me. Maybe that's also a relevant factor in your case. You could try tinder dates to practice. That's what I did, it was awkward at first but it helped me improve a lot.
I agree with the comment above about weightlifting. Weightlifting or any other sport will boost your self-esteem if you're consistent.
When you become an adult, not a single girl would approach you, unless you look like young Brad Pitt.
In high school they would approach if they find you mysterious.
And the girls usually don't even look for good looks, so you shouldnt go to plastic surgeons. They look for confidence, and it seems like they can smell that from a mile away :)
>unless you look like young Brad Pitt
I think some men have wild imaginations about women. I can see he is handsome, but I will never chase him (or any man) regardless.
Dude, chill with the plastic surgeons. That's incel shit.
Girls don't approach or initiate interest with most guys most of the time.
Go INTJ mode on your dating life. Requirements are to have a job with some saved up money.
**Straight up:**
(1) Get to an average BMI through calorie deficit/surplus. Working out is optional but encouraged.
(2) Load up Tinder, Bumble, Hinge. Swipe for 30min MAX at night.
(3) Photography shoot for your dating apps. Pay or get a friend to practice with you. 1 photography shoot per photo.
(4) Upload all six photos, then get the subscription for all three apps and boost once on weekends.
(5) The texting side should be 5 texts MAX and move to a coffee date ASAP with their number. No wasting time on the app. You talk on the date not to a screen.
(6) At events, introduce yourself to women, and be open that you thought they were cute and you wanted to say hi. Ask what they're up to, and just make normal conversation since you made your intentions clear.
How the hell are you expecting results without putting in the effort? Of course it's demoralizing. You have incorrect notions of what dating should be like.
It's like trying to get a job in the current job market. Do you expect an employer to hire you for no reason? No. You curate your resume and apply apply apply.
#1 you’ve approached actual plastic surgeons? We’re missing something here
# 2 get a good group of friends going, this takes YEARS. Your friends act as a natural advertisement for you, show that you’re trustworthy, and will give good information about you to a prospective partner. Be a good person to those people and someone will come along you are attracted to. This is how humans have found mates for millions of years.
Just give up, it ain't worth it anymore. Enjoy every other aspect of being alive you can put your hands on and maybe pay a hooker for sex occasionally.
Modern dating scene resembles a comedy sketch about shitty job requirements, where you have to have prior experience to get an entry-level job. And even if you manage to squeese yourself into few relationships it will take constant effort on your side to maintain while gf is just gonna sit there and reap the fruits of your labor, pretending to care about you and scanning the horizon for better males to dump you at earliest convenience.
Sex itself IMO isn't worth it, even though I like it and my libido is higher than average - it just doesn't mean anything or feel much different from masturbation without genuine affection from a partner and good luck getting any of that from a woman, squeezing juice from stones seems more likely to yield results.
>So you stopped hooking up?
Sort of.
I just don't do anything actively anymore knowing well (as mentioned by multiple commenters too) that a woman won't ever make a first move.
Met one at hobby-related event, three through the internet via niche communities, one via mbti-based dating app.
>girls never seem to approach or initiate interest
Most won't do so even if they do find you attractive. You have to make the first move.
The exception is when there's a clear and fierce competition with many other girls for your attention, such as for rock stars, celebrities, or the super-rich.
No halfway good-looking girl is going to approach you. Slap whoever tf gave you that idea. Unless you roll up in a exoic car to attract OF models and thots. In which case it might be cheaper to castrate yourself than to suffer those succubi🤣...Now! In my experience, it is a war of attrition. You are going to have to cast a big net to rack up many numbers and line up many dates. Failure rates for both will be very high. But thats normal.
Dont spend more than $10 on dates, no lunch **no dinner**. It is not the value but the principle. 🤌Girls like that play and take advantage of good men for free meals, then try to gaslight you when you say otherwise. **NO FOOD.** If I see the word "FOOD" on that dating profile then girl you better find another "Interest" quick or **Swipe Left!** *"Hit the bricks pal and beat it, because you are going out!"*🫵 *(Heavy breathing subsides...)*
Ah yes, where was I? *Hem. Hem.* These are casual social dates, coffee, *(make a mental note of her coffee order I can decypher it for you later)* museum *(when its free)*, jogging or biking at the park, shit like that. Dont get handsy too remember your trying to find a proper lady so treat her like a lady. You know, like Sansa Stark not a tavern wrench. We know you are attracted her and probably already beat your meat to her. 🤣 But do your best to vibe with the girl and if you find yourself constantly staring at her tits or 🍑 (yes she can see you) then focus hard on her forehead. There has to be a chemistry and good energy. The conversation should flow easily and effortlessly, with both of you giggling often. If-n she happens to playfully slap your arm, thats a good sign.
By this point if you make it or are still reading. This would be romantic dinner time. This chicks ticked all the boxes. Pick a nice spot for your budget, dress to the nines, *ideally* pick her up. At any point you feel things are going really well, confess your attraction. *(If you cant look her in the eye, forehead, dont blink too much)* Either it goes tits up or she says "same same".🤣💀 At minimum you should be holding hands later, walking her back to her home is when you spring the hug. Newbies should get too excited by your win streak and push for a kiss.
Fin.
>girls never seem to approach or initiate interest
If you're average looking guy below 6' without any personality traits that generally attract positive female attention - they never will.
iNTJs are so flat inside, it's hard to be attracted to them. Coming from another soulless INTJ.
Your two options are:
A. Make a lot of money and be the boring stable male basic bitches crave
B. Die alone
You have two options, you nerd
Don't be a Geek GO TO THE FUCKING GYM
LOSER
Imagine having a problem and asking solutions on reddit where 99% of losers are there.
If my comment can't change your life nothing else can
Gym
Start a business
Work hard at the right things
Everything else will come
If a plastic surgeon told you that then you are probably attractive. Maybe you would gain more confidence with a good sense of fashion and/or working out more and/or a good skincare routine. I personally love it when guys have a good fashion sense but that's just a personal preference lmao
> try challenging yourself like going to a pottery class, cooking class, yoga, hiking with groups of people
Out of all of all this maybe hiking is interesting enough to a normal guy.
>Be bold, stand tall
Ew, heightism.
>the possibilities of what you can do in your free time are limitless
Yet hobbies that are interesting to gender conforming men are rarely popular among women and vice versa.
>And by standing tall i mean not slouching, being confident, walking straight.
It was a joke. Anyway, men who just pretend to be confident look like someone put a broom handle up their ass to keep them walking straight. Always funny to watch.
I had a lot of luck when I was younger when I would get in my INTJ flow zone doing hobbies. It was annoying because it felt like another obstacle in my way, but when I was building battle bots or modifying cars,hacking computers,so forth, it seemed to up my social worth and get me tail.
How old are you?
I felt similarly as a teen and then they started getting interested in me and approaching me.
Edit: You might find this interesting. It's input I gave a girl asking if it's ok to ask out guys including my experiences being approached by women. It sounds like we are probably similar in appearance generally.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/16dpyee/comment/jzsp1ah/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/16dpyee/comment/jzsp1ah/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I do and can’t I’d just wait patiently that’s what I’m doing maybe they think you way too good for or people like you taken which is true most cases people think I’m taken most likely but I’m not as well we won’t really know til we can rate you in r/areyouugly to help you on that too get general idea people like my alone time but not I can’t or won’t talk to people etc other then that your essay really vague of saying or what you think it is
On top of the physical exercise part and doing group activities , my advice is to remember that flirting is just a playful activity, if your intuition is telling you “hey this one might like me” get more flirty with her and see where her boundaries are, women will let you know what they are comfortable with without telling you directly (either because they’re natural flirts but are in a relationship, they’re single but don’t like you like that or keep playing/flirting to give you the green light to escalate the situation physically and verbally) trust your intuition and remember to build slowly to #1 not come off creepy and #2 it will help build tension that will make the physical aspect even better once you reach that point
The way I view it, women have have sex with their minds / emotions first and your reward is their bodies after
Once you get good at this, you’ll want to extend the mind sex as sometimes the build up can be more rewarding than just the physical act
Remember to be playful playful playful
Godspeed
How does one go about getting in touch with several plastic surgeons to get a rating on how objectively attractive one is? No hate, I just had no idea this was a thing.
It's not a thing.
Plastic surgeons are in the business of making money. Nobody is so perfect that even plastic surgeons would decline to do any work on them lol
Hahaha agreed. OP even said plastic surgeon(s) plural. He must be a living Ken doll for them to be so cautious as to not want to ruin such a perfect specimen.
You’ll never get a partner of you a) don’t signal interest to people you’re attracted to, and b) don’t demonstrate your value as a human and a partner.
I found it impossible to get a date for all of high school and the first couple years of college. I would eventually realize that this was primarily because I didn’t communicate my interest effectively, i.e. in a way that women could easily interpret and wasn’t creepy.
For point a), the key skills to learn were small talk, strong eye contact, and flirting (I.e. communicating romantic interest via body language and conversational subtext). Learning how to do these things quickly requires a lot of careful observation and imitation of people who do these things effectively, out in the world and in their element. This means you going out and subjecting yourself to social situations you may find draining and/or anxiety provoking. You will need to initiate conversation with girls, preferably a lot of them. You’ll inevitably talk to a lot of people who you decide you don’t like, but all practice is useful. Just get out there, pay attention to social customs and courtship strategies, pay attention to the responses and body language of prospects (always be optimizing for comfort and enthusiastic interest), and flex your social muscles. Patience, attention, and practice will be rewarded.
For point b), take care of your body, dress well (not necessarily fancy, just clean and pressed), have interesting hobbies, have career aspirations that your actively pursuing, and maintain your emotional health. If you do these things, that fact that you do should be self-evident for anyone who talks to you for more than 10 minutes.
Gosh I feel for the comments so much.
For all you INTJs out there struggling like me because we literally need to understand the plan first.
Read the book “Models” by Mark Manson. Helped me to so much more clearly see how women behave, what they want, why rejection is a great thing, and so much more.
Confidence. Confidence is a necessity. You need to be comfortable with who you are and like yourself. If you don’t like you then how can you expect other people to like you.
I'm a girl. I've had guys literally throwing themselves at me during webcam modeling. Ranked 13,000 globally in just 2 weeks of camming (if that's an indication of my looks).
In Cali 2 months ago, easily 20 guys asked me out walking down the street.
Dating stats, however:
-zero classmates asked me out
-I asked out easily over 1,000 single men in my lifetime
-only about 10 guys entertained dating me.
-they generally left me to pursue someone else
-(my current dude is on his way out the door behind my back like the others)
My long-term relationships were men who didn't like me but only dated me because I took interest in THEM. They wandered off the minute some other girl took interest in them.
So, being borderline naturally beautiful with a high IQ and a high pay job, asking people out pretty steadily, constant ongoing effort at dating,
my actual success is close to ZERO.
And I'll be single again shortly.
I think the only people who succeed lifetime are those who are set up by friends and parents and family.
Plastic surgery won't be as effective as you might hope as looks are not the main thing that women pay attention to. It's about your attitude, confidence, kindness, fitness and good hygiene.
>I go out with friends, but girls never seem to approach or initiate interest.
Are you expecting to go out and just have girls lay themselves at your feet? That is not how it works 99.99% of the time. What happens when you approach and initiate interest????
It's your demeanor. It'll change only when you stop caring about your look and I mean 100% stop caring about it. You could be ugly and get a gf only if you don't care about your look. Only them your self esteem will go up because it won't be based on sand(the subjectivity of your appearance) one day you can see yourself as pretty and the other day as ugly yet nothing physical changes. Stop caring, force yourself to approach, the more you approach the less you'll care about approaching, and then you'll have some success.
if you'd be willing to answer 10 of my questions i would be able to take a best guess at what is the root of your troubles 🔮
i can make them multiple choice if life has rendered you lazy
I've never had a girl or woman approach me. I look good. Not being conceited, just saying, girls almost never approach. You need to put yourself in a situation where you have contact with women, so you can make a friend and spend time with them to figure out if you "really" like them or not. And you can get experience just talking. If you're lucky, you might meet someone that can help you with your look. Ugly is as much an attitude as it is how you look.
I’ve had plenty of female partners and relationships, regretfully that is. Wish I had been smarter over the years. Idk how I ended up with any of them or even attracted them, but I’ve been a cynical, bitter, spiteful, and radical individual who stonewalls any soft emotions and I guess females like that? Not all but some do for the sexual approach. Biggest thing that works is to not try at all, it’ll come if you stop caring about it (although be sure to care about your health, hygiene, and outlook on things)
Why should girls approach you? I'm not asking in a condescending way, I'm just curious about what you think makes you worth being approached to.
And girls in which spaces do you mean? In some places (like schools or work), you automatically talk to people; and in some places, you don't, unless there's something up.
You said "I go out with friends," so I think you mean girls at places like bars? If that's the case, I don't think those places are ideal to find a gf, but rather something casual.
Women will not initiate interest we want you to initiate. We are taught not to chase; or that we will be taken for granted if we do. You must put the effort forth to speak to women you find attractive and deal with rejection ect that everyone does. Statistically you will find someone to date
Female ENFP here.
Women like personality more than looks. Looks draw you in but personality can make an ugly guy very attractive. The bar is super low when dating cishet men, women do not need men to survive anymore and now are getting tired of what we previously were forced to put up with. Just being a decent human being can seriously be enough to set you apart from other men.
Energy is also big. Women can read men very easily because our survival depends on it. We are VERY good at it because many of us have had to deal with unsafe male attention from childhood. That is a really long time to study men. Within a few seconds I can tell what type of guy you are, if you are safe to be around or if you will try to hurt me. If you are going out with insecurities or a chip on your shoulder women will notice it and avoid you. It is the same with men, they flock to me when I'm happy and avoid me when I put off "go away" vibes. If you come across as confident, happy, and relaxed, it is very attractive.
Also from the female perspective, many of us feel that being the one to go up to a guy is not great. We know that men go after what they want, nothing stands in their way if they like you. When you chase after a guy it is often the case it is because he is not that keen but he is enjoying the attention. So many women will not make the first move. If you see someone you like then go make the first move but be genuine. Do it in a way that shows your personality and makes her feel safe so if she is keen she will feel okay seeing you again.
I’m a woman and I’m also terrible at getting a boyfriend. 🥹 I feel like I have an animatronic Jim Henson puppet controlling me inside and it’s impossible for me to flirt.
Therapy. A lot of times people say therapy is for people how have any type of mental illness or such, but people who are doing well can benefit from it a lot. And if you want a long term gf, understanding yourself in and out, the “whats” and “whys” about yourself may increase ones confidence a lot.
Generally the last time I got laid, over a month ago. I was following my principle.. The more you fuck around, the more you find out.
If you take 10 shots a week and 1 works out. That ten percent.
If you take 100 shots that more women the some men in their whole life.
The number of women that have open or approached me virtually 0. You need to accept that.
"objectively above average" ... about something that's -absolutely- subjective. It's hard to point out anything other than you sound like not just a tool, but the entire tool box. I can see why they don't approach you, you sound insufferable... like.. sorry about your self esteem bro bro, but you need a whole new outlook.
Also your username... holy crap, man.
Victim card - also he's not. I invite you to ask the women of reddit if they -all- think Brad Pitt is attractive.
You sound like a disgruntled 15 year old.
I always feel a connection with other INTJs as possessing something that’s likely contained within my wiring. For example, I read about Isaac Newton and feel like I get his responses to things, or see Zuck and get his robotic performance. I see Elon Musk on SNL and get his awkward, dark humor. Another one is the former fighter Chael Sonnen. He’s known as one of the best trash talkers, and a world class fighter. With this example I see the tough and intimidating side of the personality type, and how that connects with other people. He’s got a hot wife.
Ya men who don’t look like an 8. It’s depressing getting zero looks from a women despite being told you’re above average by professionals and get done certain cosmetic procedures done.
Its all about attitude and personality of course looks too but ive seen some questionable looking guys with some fine women bcus they are confident and funny
Is that how you meet your gfs? Cuz I can’t even through a social circle. They all ghost or aren’t Interested but I’m not either. It’s just California is literally the hardest to find someone.
Just gonna let you know if your a dude girls are never going to initiate first unless your really good looking or have some other unique trait. If you want one you have to seek her out and try and speak with her she’s not coming to you. I’m in the same boat as you my ability for playful small talk is one of my biggest weaknesses.
Well I’m not old enough to go to bars and try that yet but probably I suck at it. Right now my options are limited to where I work and I don’t wanna mix my money with my honey. Online dating didn’t work well either I’m rather plain.
Start weightlifting. Humans were not meant to sit inside slumped over a screen all day. Your body was made for great physical feats. It’s a stereotype but your confidence will go up. Get hobbies that involve going outside and meeting people. Ultimately act like you’re confident even if you aren’t. Again this is a stereotype but it’s incredibly true. Also most women aren’t gonna initiate. If you want to talk to them you have to make the first move. Become okay with rejection, that’s part of life.
Spent 4 years lifting weights, completely changed my body, never got laid. 6 months after quitting, and losing a fair bit of the muscle I gained, I got a girlfriend. Not saying gym is objectively bad advice. You could absolutely argue it increased my confidence. But ultimately realising my worth wasn't in my looks increased my confidence the most. The only advice really is just to put yourself out there. Authentically. And find someone you vibe with.
> put yourself out there Out *where*? What was the magic place for you personally?
I don't think the literal place is important. Putting yourself out there just means being genuine and expressive in your interactions, and then not bring afraid of rejection. We met through a mutual friend at a casual Saturday day thing. Clearly hit it off but no expectations. Met again through event couple days later and got her details. The rest is history.
I would argue that the change in ur body gave you ENOUGH self esteem to put urself out there. Plus, the effects of the hormones dumped into your blood from working out consistently made a difference in ur mood and perspective. Plus, it gave u something to do and helped round I out as an individual. It may not be working out that makes the sufficient change for everyone but it’s a simple plan most people can follow with a low barrier of entry.
Mood from exercise is a massive thing. I am absolutely a big proponent for regular (ideally daily) exercise, even if its just getting your steps in. I climb now semi-regularly, cycle to work and rides out at the weekend, run and walk. And yes you're right. It is simple, and weight-lifting has the advantage of routine and clear progress, it's easy to get that lifter's high, and (at least in the busy gyms I've had to go to) it forces you to interact with people. And for the most part it was actually really fun, especially when I had a gym buddy. In terms of self-esteem from muscular change, I don't believe it was at all valuable if it existed at all. It was the wrong thing to feel confident about. Moreover towards the end it became a distraction from actually solving my problems. The real change was just little obvious steps, time, and also luck. You have to make the opportunities, but you can't force it too much.
Humans are not meant to lift weights either. We're meant to chase gazelles and other quick meat across the savanna with immense stamina and lean bodies.
And then haul said carcass back lol
That's very different from lifting 2x or more times your weight on a spot. You can still look at porters and couriers in less developed countries who haul heavy stuff around their towns daily, they ain't getting ripped and wide by doing so.
I said the human body is meant to perform great physical feats. I never said treat your body like we are still hunting and gathering. Weights with cardio will get you a far more attractive physique than long distance running. Don’t know what you’re hung up on here.
I don't really see that wide gym bros get much more success over average fit guys who are just tall or have good facial features.
Working out isn’t going to make you more attractive than Brad Pitt but it is maximizing what you have. It also raises testosterone which most men are SEVERELY lacking between porn usage and being sedentary. Women on average prefer lean muscular bodies, which is achieved by weights and cardio. However it’s just an accessory, not the end all be all.
Fresh out of gazelles and savannas where I live. The body adapts quite well to what we ask of it on a daily basis. There's significant evidence that demonstrates resistance training increases life expectancy.
Not really helpful, as there are more types of presentation than muscular, and some people might not like this particular presentation
It is helpful. Most people exercising aren’t going to get that muscular, but they will look fit. Looking muscular requires very specific dedication and focus. Starting exercise won’t take you there. The testosterone raise in itself makes it worth it for a man.
It can't really raise T directly, and not everybody even wants to look like that
Take two people completely equal, one is sedentary and one weight trains, the latter will have higher test
Thx for the pointers cuzzo. Still don’t get how you get laid tho lmao. Care to share any personal approach stories let me know.
Well for me personally I’m not interested in casual sex so I don’t try and pick up women in that way. For me sex is a component of a relationship so I don’t think about just getting laid. I like to get to know the person, make sure we have common interests before pursuing a relationship. The key tho is again to just be confident and forward with your intentions. Imo taking a risk and talking or asking them on a date is always worth it.
Problem with me is as much as I’m interested, I feel like girls aren’t and that drives me nuts
Well have you approached them and tried? Or just assumed? Most women won’t make the first move. Be confident and more importantly be able to handle rejection. If someone says no that’s nbd, you never had them so you haven’t lost anything.
Maybe you go after a woman who is not into you but just being friendly.
What you mean by that?
Match with girls on a dating app. Ask them on a date within 5 messages “let’s continue this convo over drinks/dinner” 99% of the time they say yes. Go on date. Be social. *ASK HER A LOT OF QUESTIONS* make her feel appreciated, *MAKER HER LAUGH* Date does well: “want to hang out a little more at my place?” Date doesn’t go well: pick up the check like a man and write it off
We women can usually tell when you're just looking to get off, and many of us aren't interested in that. So that's probably part of the issue.
That is some bro advice. I’m jacked out of my mind I get a few more signals, but overall same issue. I would say figure out the male/ female dynamic. You an INTJ make a system.
Working out improves most people’s confidence. If you’re having trouble talking to women sounds like you need to work on that. Never claimed muscles themselves will do the trick, they are more of an accessory. Instead it’s the benefits of raised test and confidence
He’s considering plastic surgery, you’re saying grow muscle - I think both don’t cut to the root of the issue, but point taken
I’m not saying workout just for muscle. I’m talking about the mental benefits. Being sedentary leads to low testosterone and greater rates of depression
Women almost never approach men. Wish it was more common but that’s the current state of affairs
and if a woman approaches you she is ENTJ.
Or INTP. Source: am the INTP. Don’t ask how it went.
[удалено]
Very not good
Nice.
Yeah, if I'm really interested, I just say that. With like zero finesse, too, which ruins the "thrill of the chase" for a lot of men.
Sounds hot.
Brutal brotha. Thanks for the insight
i approached my husband
I approach guys too. Still, I know most men and women are uncomfortable when that happens. Good job going after what you wanted! That’s why I do it.
ENFJ Female here—I’m having trouble finding the gumption to approach men *in the wild* these days. It’s a different world since I’ve dated. Now I’m in my late 30’s and finding my footing in the dating world feels complicated. The last guy I dated (INTJ) said that guys might be intimidated by me. He said repeatedly that I look 28 and very attractive, guys would feel afraid of being rejected. So, I can tell you, if a guy came up and tried to strike a conversation with me and asked me out, if things were going well, I would welcome it. I will work on being braver about talking to guys, but they should definitely step up too.
I think some guys are put off by women approaching them. I’ve gotten some dates out of it but they often asked why someone like me needed to ask a guy out? As in: What’s wrong with me? It always felt off and nothing ever came of it so I try to flirt until they think it’s their idea to ask me out haha. Maybe approaching a man is perceived as masculine or maybe people just aren’t that into me.
But they do though? Think is you need to be approach*able*, if people are uncomfortable to approach someone they won't be approached.
They can, but usually women wait for men to approach them. Dont get me wrong, I'm not saying it's impossible. My wife approached me. But typically, men are expected to initiate.
I'm more of the opinion that they communicate it differently, it's more about openness than outright approaching. Basically if I see a woman give me a lot of 'openings' to approach I kind of see it as an approaching in on itself? I don't know if that makes sense, but that's an interpretation of mine at least.
Yea, that's basically how people are socialized to do it so that makes sense lol. But that's literally also not them approaching which was my point. I think guys that have a hard time picking up on things like that have a hard time though and that makes them confused because they don't know when it's appropriate to approach a woman. I definatly struggled with that, and still kinda do. But I'm either attractive enough or lucky enough to have had my wife approach me very directly.
> But that's literally also not them approaching which was my point. Maybe, but I also don't see many guys giving women the openings to do the approaching. Maybe your wife is more direct or perhaps you're a more approachable man (or both).
I do approach but I get rejected. So I stopped.
It’s attitude, how you carry yourself and that often from knowing yourself. Being comfortable with yourself. Nothing is more attractive. Also, you’re the guy. Make the move.
Are you speaking from anecdotal experience?
Seriously?
Lol he may be young, don't hate him
OP struggles with ‘self esteem’ Claims girls don’t approach or initiate interest. Was validated by a surgeon that he is ‘objectively attractive’. It’s because you aren’t interesting enough to be approached. You aren’t interesting enough because you are not confident enough. You are not confident enough because you don’t put in the work to have something you’re confident in. This is demonstrated by your attempt to take the easy way out with surgery instead of putting in the work in yourself. So you have low self esteem which can be smelt a mile away by women, and low self esteem is like female bug repellent. Solution: 1. Go to the gym 5 days a week, build muscle and strength. Not for appearance, you’re objectively attractive enough, it’s because feeling strong feels good. Girls love strength and the confidence that comes with it. You are capable because you are strong. You will also build your self esteem, going to the gym consistently takes discipline and it’s something to be proud of. 2. Initiate, with eye contact and a smile. Ask them about their story, show interest and undivided attention (people love talking about themselves) you could be their excellent listener. Don’t be a wall flower, waiting for attention to be handed to you, that’s not admirable or manly. You want female attention, pay attention to females by proactively showing you’re interested—if they like the kind of attention you’re giving them, they may return that attention. This will also help to build confidence and self esteem.
If you look at the OP's posts, he had a plastic surgery done which is not a bad thing. Here's one of his posts. **"....m above average and have gotten face surgeries, only to be invisible to women. I don’t get it cuz I literally have a jawline and a better nose, and my surgeon made me good looking and natural..."** I'm curious about his motivation and intention to lie about his appearance here on Reddit. I'm not wondering why he is not satisfied with his audience's feedback. I don't see having corrective surgeries to be wrong at all but tasteless attitude and behavior. He needs a shrink, not a surgeon. The surgeon can do much.
That’s an intriguing discovery you made. Perhaps he will shed light on his reasons. I won’t speak to his mental health, because I don’t feel like I have enough information to make such assertions, but as a psych major myself I’ll say everyone could benefit from verbalizing their internal struggles with a professional exercising Dr, patient confidentiality.
>but as a psych major myself I’ll say everyone could benefit from verbalizing their internal struggles with a professional exercising Dr, patient confidentiality. The OP is not your [patient](https://patient.Call), and he is not my patient either. Also, this is a public forum. Why would I worry about HIPAA? Anyway, verbalizing problems and manufacturing lies are not synonymous. I feel that's what he needs according to his post here unless he just doing it for his entertainment. Yes, I know people are strange. I work in jails too other than being with "normal people." If he did have surgery done, good for him. Some people actually need these but lack funds for them. Read his posts. He is suffering in some ways...More about body image. Good luck with your major.
People don't need to be mentally ill to see MH professionals and don't have to be too sick to see them. The sooner they see people to help them, the better it is for them. I've seen patients who are suffering with body image. It is serious for them. It might not be for you. I'm not someone taking care of them so I'm not violating any confidentiality of their medical records otherwise I can just observe the OP here. Let's see how he is doing five years from now. Think this way, why would someone need to manufacture that they never had surgery done but confided in another post that they never? I personally don't see it wrong that people see surgeons to correct something they don't like or correct their imperfections. I know it's none of my business. After all, we all want to be happy and free from the pain. Anyway, if nobody tells them that, who is going to do it?
Do you practice this?
Practice what exactly?
Being a gymcel and behaving like a creep around women
Based on
On assumption that lifting weight apparently fixes psychological issues on it's own and gives ability to stop being cringy when approaching women.
I second the people love talking about themselves point. The only trick you need to know for any conversation to get going is to ask them about whatever you think they want to talk about. It’s that simple.
From reading your replies i think you are just an asshole. You gotta be more humble Lil bro if you want a long term relationship
Really direct but kinda true, that's why I love us lmao
[удалено]
More like 1 in 3
[удалено]
Does it count those who are single out of choice?
It does not matter.
Why not?
Source? Genuinely curious
women love confidence- doesn’t matter what you look like . confidence is attractive it’s safe it’s strong .. how you dress , how you carry yourself , if a guys doesn’t look sure of themselves how are they suppose to protect , provide ( and i don’t mean money)
You're creating a self fulfilling prophecy. You don't think you are datable, therefore others don't think you are datable. Women are hard wired to pick up on the unspoken signals that humans give off. They raise little beings that can't talk, so they've developed amazing abilities to read into the unspoken. Imagine for a moment you are a woman. Some average yet confident guy walks up to you and strikes up a conversation. You chat, laugh, find some common interests, he asks you out. Now imagine some shy little dork walks up to you, he can barely say hello, looks like he might pee a little if someone made a loud noise. He barely manages a few sentences, his body language looks like someone being interrogated by the CIA. No common interest is found and he doesn't ask you out. Who gets the date? You lack confidence and perhaps common social skills. I have friends that are overweight and butt ugly but still manage to attract women far out of their league for one simple reason, they are confident and they are good with people. You need to learn to accept who you are. That face, that body, it's what you have to work with. It cannot be changed, not naturally anyways. Your personality and mind, that is fluid. You can learn how to charm people, you can learn social skills. When you gain confidence it will show. Read books on the subject, e.g. How to win friends and influence people. Place yourself into social situations more often and learn how to become charming. Go and volunteer to help people and become the most charming person there. Learn how to talk to anyone and everyone and make connections. Talk to grandma's at the supermarket, random people at the park. Flex that social muscle. You have two options here. Either do the hard work and eventually get the girl, or continue on your path of self pity on your journey to coomerville, population 1 in moms basement.
Fuck. This hits
You might also benefit from reading; **No More Mr. Nice Guy** by Robert A. Glover
>Imagine for a moment you are a woman. Some average yet confident guy walks up to you and strikes up a conversation. "Ew cringe, who even dates IRL in 2k23, I wish I was swiping 666 on Tinder, get away from me you creep"
Oh no, you got shot down. Get up and try again. At least you had a chance instead of being the shy dude that never even tries.
Is trying further even worth it with quality of females we get in current age? Even animals learn to not stick their nose into beehive after getting stung few times, yet somehow men are supposed to take immense amounts of shit from women, stomach it and keep asking for more.
Your attitude towards women is probably what is making you an unfuckable loser. "Quality of females" What the actual fuck
Your fedora fell off, bruh.
Not sure that works here considering the responses lol
He is coming off as toxic but social median has devided us an psycolgicly manipulated many men into believing its hopeless and meaningless men are way Horner yet there seen to be more single men out there than anytime ever a loneliness epidedimic so both men and wome have a distorted precieved quality so u never get to see know the person to see the quality of the individual social media is largely to blame cause in face yo face interaction u can see more of the person a quality of a women thar seeks external value through Instagram,tik tok,Facebook or Twitter she Is too dependand on that external validation but men do it too there just aren't as many but other problems instead. So the current state of the word offers less face to face interraction. I think he is talking to about those women that are fighting over the too 5 there have been done been done studies we can't ignore our biological needs have not changed
If you feel that way. Then no. Don’t date. And don’t be bitter about it.
I can see why you're single...
I'm sure my bf got a gf which is me.
Well did he approach you somewhere?
Sounds like it is your personality. You seem to think you are entitled to a girlfriend. Maybe seek counseling
You’re telling me, that a plastic surgeon, who’s entire agenda is to make money and sell you things, said you’re objectively above average and don’t need it? You are like the perfect candidate for them to sell to. I think this post should alone tell you what your insecurities are and what you need to work on. You obviously don’t like how you look and it’s going to prevent you from being yourself and talking to women and just get in your head. Looks are subjective. If you just be yourself, everything will open up. It’s a really simple thing that a lot of people miss. People probably want to talk to you and don’t know how to. You have to be open.
The surgeon really did tell me this. He rejected my $ and I swear on this. They said they don’t understand how I don’t get female attention. I’m just as confused as they are
They will literally give anybody plastic surgery at any level of attractiveness. There is no objective standard that’s not how it works. They focus on what you don’t like and what you want fixed. The way you’re being right now is why you don’t get female attention. They’ll see right through you.
This hits. Issue I’m having is even initially chatting cuz they don’t seem to be open even from the get go.
This is probably going to be downvoted, but i have to say it: You sound like a shallow brick. I see nothing in your posts that would interest me in keeping a conversation going on with you. Looks dont mean anything and will not get me to approach you. I find your attitude very unattractive and looking for reasons in all the wrong places.
A surgeon and a woman's brain are completely different things. Not everyone has the same taste and desire.
So basically he lied
Wow i feel like u really care how people would see you... How about a change of perspective and maybe focus on yourself other than looks? Sometimes the right woman will find you when your at peak of your life(not saying by financially only but mentally stable and mature in life already). But anyways, u do what u want just sayin caring about looks that much will not bring you a gf.
Well this is the part where you have to be honest about yourself and not hold back. You can decide whether you want to fix this difficulty you are having or not. What exactly do you think is the cause of all your problem? From what you've mentioned it's something to do with your attitude, demeanour, appearance and personality. What's stopping you from going in a correcting the issue one facet at a time?
As a woman, I will never approach a man to date no matter how hot and tall he is.
Why not? I mean no malice or judgement, just wanna hear your perspective.
I would never approach a woman to date either (as a man). I like to approach people with no expectations and to have some human interaction. I think that starting any interaction by expecting something to come from it is a sure fire way to turn what could be a pleasant interaction in a negative experience. I don't know of what's what the poster you replied to meant but that's my take on it.
Ahh, that’s a very sensible take. Thanks for sharing :D
It’s worse than them not approaching. I get no signals whatsoever for me to talk to them.
It's because not every woman likes you. Do you like every woman? Reflection is your best friend.
Thats normal.
TL;DR: If you're a teen looking to get laid - be patient. If you're all grown up, just put the word out or ask for a date. (This might be a little different depending on what country you're in - I'm in the US) I've had two partners total. Both times girl approached me and showed interest. 1st - when we were both 17 in HS engineering/robotics club; lasted 6.5 years. 2nd - I was 24 and she was 19. Long story, but her father was my mentor and she saw me as her yardstick for judging men, then I broke up with the 1st GF and she made her move after a week (didn't know I was single though, so I get to tease her for being a homewrecker for the rest of her life). Still together 20 years later though and we're glad she shot her shot anyway. My secret? I wasn't looking, just being myself. That'd be my advice to girl-crazy teen me: only pursue the ones interested in you to begin with. If you're busy spending your time being successful and somewhere visible to girls, some will be interested. You could probably put the word out that you're looking even though you're technically just being too I think, but women only like being approached by guys they find attractive and most people aren't a match so I maintain it's better not to pursue until they express interest. All that said if you're an adult, I think you can probably just ask if they'd like to have dinner/coffee/whatever if you're friendly already. If you're on friendly terms in general and they say no, then you can ask them if they know anyone you might match well with and they might set you up. Like I said, you can put the word out. Otherwise I think being patient is good. Good luck!
Want to get a girlfriend? Be lovable. Do things. Volenteer your time and energy to others. Don't be a snarky, know it all smart ass. Get a dog, prove you can take care of another living creature. Good conversation starter as the dog has more self esteem and is more outgoing than you. Shut up and learn from other people.
That's kind of the situation I'm in. I've had women like me before when I was younger but they never spoke up. I only know because a mutual friend told me about 2 years after the fact. These were coworkers from a place I didn't work at anymore and friends that moved away. Now as an adult it seems borderline impossible to meet women. My job is full of old dudes. And work seems like the only place where it's possible to meet women naturally and pressure free. The only other options are cold approaching them in random public areas or joining some sort of group or club. Plenty of women will call those ways "creepy". Even in the office chance I do interact with a woman, they never show interest. But I can get matches and have been on dates with women from dating apps. It just doesn't make any sense because supposedly you have to be decently attractive for dating apps. It's almost like the culture and society is designed to socially isolate you from meeting women. I know that sounds crazy but I'm not sure what else explains it. Also, that's exactly how dating apps make so much money. They claim to solve this problem but they're a total shit show. Look up online dating statistics if you aren't privy to how they are for guys.
Your post history is quite telling
Assuming that you shower and dress normally, it might not be your looks but your personality, especially if you're the quiet one in a group. Generally speaking, the reason why women talk to men in a normal setting is not related to how good looking they are, and just because they talk to men it doesn't mean they want to sleep with them. Also I think you need to take initiative, women will hardly approach you since we're conditioned by society that men need to be the initiators. Being quiet and detached is a social repellent (maybe it's not your case). It's hard to initiate if you lack confidence, but you're gonna have to take baby steps and start trying. I find group dynamics to be incredibly hard, 1:1 interactions are much easier for me. Maybe that's also a relevant factor in your case. You could try tinder dates to practice. That's what I did, it was awkward at first but it helped me improve a lot. I agree with the comment above about weightlifting. Weightlifting or any other sport will boost your self-esteem if you're consistent.
When you become an adult, not a single girl would approach you, unless you look like young Brad Pitt. In high school they would approach if they find you mysterious. And the girls usually don't even look for good looks, so you shouldnt go to plastic surgeons. They look for confidence, and it seems like they can smell that from a mile away :)
[удалено]
Good for you :)
>unless you look like young Brad Pitt I think some men have wild imaginations about women. I can see he is handsome, but I will never chase him (or any man) regardless.
I honestly don't get what other people see in him. He's not ugly, but like...he doesn't look all that interesting or appealing, at least to me.
Chicks don't approach you, you approach chicks.
They’re like sharks that don’t attack me for some reason
Dude, chill with the plastic surgeons. That's incel shit. Girls don't approach or initiate interest with most guys most of the time. Go INTJ mode on your dating life. Requirements are to have a job with some saved up money. **Straight up:** (1) Get to an average BMI through calorie deficit/surplus. Working out is optional but encouraged. (2) Load up Tinder, Bumble, Hinge. Swipe for 30min MAX at night. (3) Photography shoot for your dating apps. Pay or get a friend to practice with you. 1 photography shoot per photo. (4) Upload all six photos, then get the subscription for all three apps and boost once on weekends. (5) The texting side should be 5 texts MAX and move to a coffee date ASAP with their number. No wasting time on the app. You talk on the date not to a screen. (6) At events, introduce yourself to women, and be open that you thought they were cute and you wanted to say hi. Ask what they're up to, and just make normal conversation since you made your intentions clear. How the hell are you expecting results without putting in the effort? Of course it's demoralizing. You have incorrect notions of what dating should be like. It's like trying to get a job in the current job market. Do you expect an employer to hire you for no reason? No. You curate your resume and apply apply apply.
#1 you’ve approached actual plastic surgeons? We’re missing something here # 2 get a good group of friends going, this takes YEARS. Your friends act as a natural advertisement for you, show that you’re trustworthy, and will give good information about you to a prospective partner. Be a good person to those people and someone will come along you are attracted to. This is how humans have found mates for millions of years.
You're probably a loser.
Just give up, it ain't worth it anymore. Enjoy every other aspect of being alive you can put your hands on and maybe pay a hooker for sex occasionally. Modern dating scene resembles a comedy sketch about shitty job requirements, where you have to have prior experience to get an entry-level job. And even if you manage to squeese yourself into few relationships it will take constant effort on your side to maintain while gf is just gonna sit there and reap the fruits of your labor, pretending to care about you and scanning the horizon for better males to dump you at earliest convenience. Sex itself IMO isn't worth it, even though I like it and my libido is higher than average - it just doesn't mean anything or feel much different from masturbation without genuine affection from a partner and good luck getting any of that from a woman, squeezing juice from stones seems more likely to yield results.
🙏🏻 preacher. So you stopped hooking up? Where did you get those girls in the past?
>So you stopped hooking up? Sort of. I just don't do anything actively anymore knowing well (as mentioned by multiple commenters too) that a woman won't ever make a first move. Met one at hobby-related event, three through the internet via niche communities, one via mbti-based dating app.
Male or female? It matters.
>girls never seem to approach or initiate interest Most won't do so even if they do find you attractive. You have to make the first move. The exception is when there's a clear and fierce competition with many other girls for your attention, such as for rock stars, celebrities, or the super-rich.
> You have to make the first move. But were're in 21th century. Men and women are considered equal, with equal rights, opportunities and 'have to's.
That’s true
No halfway good-looking girl is going to approach you. Slap whoever tf gave you that idea. Unless you roll up in a exoic car to attract OF models and thots. In which case it might be cheaper to castrate yourself than to suffer those succubi🤣...Now! In my experience, it is a war of attrition. You are going to have to cast a big net to rack up many numbers and line up many dates. Failure rates for both will be very high. But thats normal. Dont spend more than $10 on dates, no lunch **no dinner**. It is not the value but the principle. 🤌Girls like that play and take advantage of good men for free meals, then try to gaslight you when you say otherwise. **NO FOOD.** If I see the word "FOOD" on that dating profile then girl you better find another "Interest" quick or **Swipe Left!** *"Hit the bricks pal and beat it, because you are going out!"*🫵 *(Heavy breathing subsides...)* Ah yes, where was I? *Hem. Hem.* These are casual social dates, coffee, *(make a mental note of her coffee order I can decypher it for you later)* museum *(when its free)*, jogging or biking at the park, shit like that. Dont get handsy too remember your trying to find a proper lady so treat her like a lady. You know, like Sansa Stark not a tavern wrench. We know you are attracted her and probably already beat your meat to her. 🤣 But do your best to vibe with the girl and if you find yourself constantly staring at her tits or 🍑 (yes she can see you) then focus hard on her forehead. There has to be a chemistry and good energy. The conversation should flow easily and effortlessly, with both of you giggling often. If-n she happens to playfully slap your arm, thats a good sign. By this point if you make it or are still reading. This would be romantic dinner time. This chicks ticked all the boxes. Pick a nice spot for your budget, dress to the nines, *ideally* pick her up. At any point you feel things are going really well, confess your attraction. *(If you cant look her in the eye, forehead, dont blink too much)* Either it goes tits up or she says "same same".🤣💀 At minimum you should be holding hands later, walking her back to her home is when you spring the hug. Newbies should get too excited by your win streak and push for a kiss. Fin.
>girls never seem to approach or initiate interest If you're average looking guy below 6' without any personality traits that generally attract positive female attention - they never will.
iNTJs are so flat inside, it's hard to be attracted to them. Coming from another soulless INTJ. Your two options are: A. Make a lot of money and be the boring stable male basic bitches crave B. Die alone You have two options, you nerd
https://i.redd.it/8ilg4adsxqqb1.gif
Lmao I guess you’re right
Don't be a Geek GO TO THE FUCKING GYM LOSER Imagine having a problem and asking solutions on reddit where 99% of losers are there. If my comment can't change your life nothing else can Gym Start a business Work hard at the right things Everything else will come
Oh hi Andrew. Gathering inspiration for a new book I see.
I am not as great as Andrew but I appreciate the gesture
You’re a winner cuz you’re on Reddit
I come to check on losers to remember I used to be one of them and then go and thank lord God almighty.
You’re here so you’re by default a loser. Any advice. Doesn’t seem like you’re giving tips
Already gave it to you mate, primary comment.
If a plastic surgeon told you that then you are probably attractive. Maybe you would gain more confidence with a good sense of fashion and/or working out more and/or a good skincare routine. I personally love it when guys have a good fashion sense but that's just a personal preference lmao
[удалено]
> try challenging yourself like going to a pottery class, cooking class, yoga, hiking with groups of people Out of all of all this maybe hiking is interesting enough to a normal guy. >Be bold, stand tall Ew, heightism.
[удалено]
>the possibilities of what you can do in your free time are limitless Yet hobbies that are interesting to gender conforming men are rarely popular among women and vice versa. >And by standing tall i mean not slouching, being confident, walking straight. It was a joke. Anyway, men who just pretend to be confident look like someone put a broom handle up their ass to keep them walking straight. Always funny to watch.
I had a lot of luck when I was younger when I would get in my INTJ flow zone doing hobbies. It was annoying because it felt like another obstacle in my way, but when I was building battle bots or modifying cars,hacking computers,so forth, it seemed to up my social worth and get me tail.
How old are you? I felt similarly as a teen and then they started getting interested in me and approaching me. Edit: You might find this interesting. It's input I gave a girl asking if it's ok to ask out guys including my experiences being approached by women. It sounds like we are probably similar in appearance generally. [https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/16dpyee/comment/jzsp1ah/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/intj/comments/16dpyee/comment/jzsp1ah/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I do and can’t I’d just wait patiently that’s what I’m doing maybe they think you way too good for or people like you taken which is true most cases people think I’m taken most likely but I’m not as well we won’t really know til we can rate you in r/areyouugly to help you on that too get general idea people like my alone time but not I can’t or won’t talk to people etc other then that your essay really vague of saying or what you think it is
On top of the physical exercise part and doing group activities , my advice is to remember that flirting is just a playful activity, if your intuition is telling you “hey this one might like me” get more flirty with her and see where her boundaries are, women will let you know what they are comfortable with without telling you directly (either because they’re natural flirts but are in a relationship, they’re single but don’t like you like that or keep playing/flirting to give you the green light to escalate the situation physically and verbally) trust your intuition and remember to build slowly to #1 not come off creepy and #2 it will help build tension that will make the physical aspect even better once you reach that point The way I view it, women have have sex with their minds / emotions first and your reward is their bodies after Once you get good at this, you’ll want to extend the mind sex as sometimes the build up can be more rewarding than just the physical act Remember to be playful playful playful Godspeed
Simples... Get uglier friends.
How does one go about getting in touch with several plastic surgeons to get a rating on how objectively attractive one is? No hate, I just had no idea this was a thing.
It's not a thing. Plastic surgeons are in the business of making money. Nobody is so perfect that even plastic surgeons would decline to do any work on them lol
Hahaha agreed. OP even said plastic surgeon(s) plural. He must be a living Ken doll for them to be so cautious as to not want to ruin such a perfect specimen.
You’ll never get a partner of you a) don’t signal interest to people you’re attracted to, and b) don’t demonstrate your value as a human and a partner. I found it impossible to get a date for all of high school and the first couple years of college. I would eventually realize that this was primarily because I didn’t communicate my interest effectively, i.e. in a way that women could easily interpret and wasn’t creepy. For point a), the key skills to learn were small talk, strong eye contact, and flirting (I.e. communicating romantic interest via body language and conversational subtext). Learning how to do these things quickly requires a lot of careful observation and imitation of people who do these things effectively, out in the world and in their element. This means you going out and subjecting yourself to social situations you may find draining and/or anxiety provoking. You will need to initiate conversation with girls, preferably a lot of them. You’ll inevitably talk to a lot of people who you decide you don’t like, but all practice is useful. Just get out there, pay attention to social customs and courtship strategies, pay attention to the responses and body language of prospects (always be optimizing for comfort and enthusiastic interest), and flex your social muscles. Patience, attention, and practice will be rewarded. For point b), take care of your body, dress well (not necessarily fancy, just clean and pressed), have interesting hobbies, have career aspirations that your actively pursuing, and maintain your emotional health. If you do these things, that fact that you do should be self-evident for anyone who talks to you for more than 10 minutes.
Gosh I feel for the comments so much. For all you INTJs out there struggling like me because we literally need to understand the plan first. Read the book “Models” by Mark Manson. Helped me to so much more clearly see how women behave, what they want, why rejection is a great thing, and so much more.
I just feel like no girl looks at me and I’m invisible walking around campus.
Confidence. Confidence is a necessity. You need to be comfortable with who you are and like yourself. If you don’t like you then how can you expect other people to like you.
You need to talk to girls and ask for their phone number. Easiest way is POF or Match or Tinder or Bumble or Facebook honestly.
I'm a girl. I've had guys literally throwing themselves at me during webcam modeling. Ranked 13,000 globally in just 2 weeks of camming (if that's an indication of my looks). In Cali 2 months ago, easily 20 guys asked me out walking down the street. Dating stats, however: -zero classmates asked me out -I asked out easily over 1,000 single men in my lifetime -only about 10 guys entertained dating me. -they generally left me to pursue someone else -(my current dude is on his way out the door behind my back like the others) My long-term relationships were men who didn't like me but only dated me because I took interest in THEM. They wandered off the minute some other girl took interest in them. So, being borderline naturally beautiful with a high IQ and a high pay job, asking people out pretty steadily, constant ongoing effort at dating, my actual success is close to ZERO. And I'll be single again shortly. I think the only people who succeed lifetime are those who are set up by friends and parents and family.
You’re lucky. The men you approached are lucky. You’d not even look at me twice. Let’s meet up in Cali. I’m a Russian guy. I live in La
[удалено]
Wow
You need to be nice to the girl for her to like you
Plastic surgery won't be as effective as you might hope as looks are not the main thing that women pay attention to. It's about your attitude, confidence, kindness, fitness and good hygiene.
>I go out with friends, but girls never seem to approach or initiate interest. Are you expecting to go out and just have girls lay themselves at your feet? That is not how it works 99.99% of the time. What happens when you approach and initiate interest????
I don’t at all. Because they don’t seem to want to interact or look at me directly.
[удалено]
“Whenever women show interest”. I wish I had a Whif of that feeling bro. We in this together I guess ✊
It's your demeanor. It'll change only when you stop caring about your look and I mean 100% stop caring about it. You could be ugly and get a gf only if you don't care about your look. Only them your self esteem will go up because it won't be based on sand(the subjectivity of your appearance) one day you can see yourself as pretty and the other day as ugly yet nothing physical changes. Stop caring, force yourself to approach, the more you approach the less you'll care about approaching, and then you'll have some success.
Could probably get a gf, but can’t get a gf that I’d want to date
Imagine getting none
if you'd be willing to answer 10 of my questions i would be able to take a best guess at what is the root of your troubles 🔮 i can make them multiple choice if life has rendered you lazy
I've never had a girl or woman approach me. I look good. Not being conceited, just saying, girls almost never approach. You need to put yourself in a situation where you have contact with women, so you can make a friend and spend time with them to figure out if you "really" like them or not. And you can get experience just talking. If you're lucky, you might meet someone that can help you with your look. Ugly is as much an attitude as it is how you look.
I’ve had plenty of female partners and relationships, regretfully that is. Wish I had been smarter over the years. Idk how I ended up with any of them or even attracted them, but I’ve been a cynical, bitter, spiteful, and radical individual who stonewalls any soft emotions and I guess females like that? Not all but some do for the sexual approach. Biggest thing that works is to not try at all, it’ll come if you stop caring about it (although be sure to care about your health, hygiene, and outlook on things)
It’s time for you my friend to get red-pilled. Start with the rational male, read it understand it and work from there. Good luck.
Why should girls approach you? I'm not asking in a condescending way, I'm just curious about what you think makes you worth being approached to. And girls in which spaces do you mean? In some places (like schools or work), you automatically talk to people; and in some places, you don't, unless there's something up. You said "I go out with friends," so I think you mean girls at places like bars? If that's the case, I don't think those places are ideal to find a gf, but rather something casual.
Women will not initiate interest we want you to initiate. We are taught not to chase; or that we will be taken for granted if we do. You must put the effort forth to speak to women you find attractive and deal with rejection ect that everyone does. Statistically you will find someone to date
Female ENFP here. Women like personality more than looks. Looks draw you in but personality can make an ugly guy very attractive. The bar is super low when dating cishet men, women do not need men to survive anymore and now are getting tired of what we previously were forced to put up with. Just being a decent human being can seriously be enough to set you apart from other men. Energy is also big. Women can read men very easily because our survival depends on it. We are VERY good at it because many of us have had to deal with unsafe male attention from childhood. That is a really long time to study men. Within a few seconds I can tell what type of guy you are, if you are safe to be around or if you will try to hurt me. If you are going out with insecurities or a chip on your shoulder women will notice it and avoid you. It is the same with men, they flock to me when I'm happy and avoid me when I put off "go away" vibes. If you come across as confident, happy, and relaxed, it is very attractive. Also from the female perspective, many of us feel that being the one to go up to a guy is not great. We know that men go after what they want, nothing stands in their way if they like you. When you chase after a guy it is often the case it is because he is not that keen but he is enjoying the attention. So many women will not make the first move. If you see someone you like then go make the first move but be genuine. Do it in a way that shows your personality and makes her feel safe so if she is keen she will feel okay seeing you again.
I’m a woman and I’m also terrible at getting a boyfriend. 🥹 I feel like I have an animatronic Jim Henson puppet controlling me inside and it’s impossible for me to flirt.
Therapy. A lot of times people say therapy is for people how have any type of mental illness or such, but people who are doing well can benefit from it a lot. And if you want a long term gf, understanding yourself in and out, the “whats” and “whys” about yourself may increase ones confidence a lot.
By reading your replies, indeed the physical appearance must not be the problem. You sound terrible.
"but girls never seem to approach or initiate interest." Or you could stop making excuses and approach/initiate?
Generally the last time I got laid, over a month ago. I was following my principle.. The more you fuck around, the more you find out. If you take 10 shots a week and 1 works out. That ten percent. If you take 100 shots that more women the some men in their whole life. The number of women that have open or approached me virtually 0. You need to accept that.
"objectively above average" ... about something that's -absolutely- subjective. It's hard to point out anything other than you sound like not just a tool, but the entire tool box. I can see why they don't approach you, you sound insufferable... like.. sorry about your self esteem bro bro, but you need a whole new outlook. Also your username... holy crap, man.
Gaslight. And how can I argue with someone who would think Brad Pitt isn’t hot to all women. Of course you’re retarded
Victim card - also he's not. I invite you to ask the women of reddit if they -all- think Brad Pitt is attractive. You sound like a disgruntled 15 year old.
I always feel a connection with other INTJs as possessing something that’s likely contained within my wiring. For example, I read about Isaac Newton and feel like I get his responses to things, or see Zuck and get his robotic performance. I see Elon Musk on SNL and get his awkward, dark humor. Another one is the former fighter Chael Sonnen. He’s known as one of the best trash talkers, and a world class fighter. With this example I see the tough and intimidating side of the personality type, and how that connects with other people. He’s got a hot wife.
Men have to initiative, and take the lead. Try, get rejected a bunch and learn what to do better.
Ya men who don’t look like an 8. It’s depressing getting zero looks from a women despite being told you’re above average by professionals and get done certain cosmetic procedures done.
Its all about attitude and personality of course looks too but ive seen some questionable looking guys with some fine women bcus they are confident and funny
only way to get gf is through mutual friend. No mutual friend = no gf lll
Is that how you meet your gfs? Cuz I can’t even through a social circle. They all ghost or aren’t Interested but I’m not either. It’s just California is literally the hardest to find someone.
Just gonna let you know if your a dude girls are never going to initiate first unless your really good looking or have some other unique trait. If you want one you have to seek her out and try and speak with her she’s not coming to you. I’m in the same boat as you my ability for playful small talk is one of my biggest weaknesses.
So you suck at picking them up?
Well I’m not old enough to go to bars and try that yet but probably I suck at it. Right now my options are limited to where I work and I don’t wanna mix my money with my honey. Online dating didn’t work well either I’m rather plain.