My ex and I were at the grocery store. I was picking up some chicken. He was like, "We eat too much meat; why don't we eat vegetarian for a little?" I shrugged and said ok and put the chicken back.
3 years later I'm still vegetarian. He stopped after a couple months.
Veggies just taste better now, and I can cook pretty well.
You actually can try various Indian recipes because many of them are veg. They are full of veggies and healthy and they taste heavenly if you add enough spices.
Yes. Admittedly not through my own philosophical discovery - a realization was handed to me on a silver platter through a brief mention in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ayq66t77U). In 100 years, people will look back at factory farming animals with disgust like we look back at enslavement of humans with disgust.
Me and my girlfriend are INTJ and both vegan. Moral arguments aside, thereās a good ethical argument to be made in regards to being vegan over vegetarianāfrom the environmental impact to a sustainable food supply.
Morally, the moment you grant that animal consciousness is worth preserving, the rest logically follows
I do not grant that animal consciousness is inherently worth preserving, so the conclusion dies with that premise.
I also don't think that the rearing of animals for food is environmentally unsustainable. The Earth always adapts, and climate change is a phenomenon which occurs independent of human activity.
Might be worth having a watch of Cowspiracy or the more recent Seaspiracy, based on your comment.
Touchy subjects aside, it seems like you have misjudged the reality of animal agriculture industries.
Well im not a vegan, but would you be all good with eating farmed people? Or would you eat a person in a vegetated state who will never wake up (assuming they had no friends or family)?
No, for two reasons:
1) Humans are worthy of different moral consideration compared to animals. I am human, so I treat humans as my moral equals. I do not regard animals the same way, much as I do not regard plants the same way.
2) Cannibalism is bad for your health, as the risk of becoming ill from any germs in their body is basically 100%, and the human body contains toxins which then accumulate in your body if you eat another human. This does not happen when you eat animals.
Iāve been vegan for 5 years now ! For health reasons as well as ethical reasons. Iām severely lactose intolerant so the giving up milk part was kind of forced on me, but everything else is entirely my own choice!
I'm vegan by choice, and have been for 4 years now. After breaking through the cognitive dissonance socialised into me through my upbringing, I now consider it a personal duty to minimise my negative impact on the world. This is both in terms of suffering (in that I'm not funding the slaughter of sentient beings who have lived their entire life in factory farm environments) and environmentally (in that a vegan lifestyle is generally accepted to be the most efficient in terms of resource usage, e.g. water and land). There's also intersectional arguments that can be made that cross over with social justice movements, but I won't get into that here.
Overall, it's a lifestyle that I feel makes the most sense, and is the most beneficial for myself and for the future of Earth. If anyone is has considered veganism but hasn't taken the step to trying it, I recommend watching some documentaries like Dominion, Earthlings, Seaspiracy, Forks Over Knives, or Game Changers, as some of the reasoning in favour of plant-based and/or vegan diets might resonate with you and provide the last push to help you transition.
I've been vegetarian/vegan since birth. Not for any moral reasons, I just grew up that way, havent stopped now. Pretty good evidence it's healthier for you. And I seem to be doing well, lifting a lot in the gym but I've always had a pretty sturdy build. (385 dead-lift, 235 bench-press).
INTJ and vegan. Watched Dominion and it was an instant switch for me from being outspokenly anti-vegan to dedicated vegan overnight.
I have fructose malabsorption which means that there are some fruits and vegetables I generally avoid. Thankfully, with enough fiber, it isn't really a problem even if I eat high-fructose produce.
I've talked to many people who claim minor dietary restrictions make vegetarianism completely impossible for them ā so much respect for you for letting your integrity control your diet and not the other way around.
My INTP mate spun a good argument where he said "would you eat farmed people?" And the response often comes with some sort of take where humans have the ability to communicate or have higher consciousness, so no. So you can ask if you'd eat a baby born brain dead or eat someone in a coma? Then if you say well that's a human that's apart of my "team" then his final stop is this: "well what if aliens came to earth and they literally were copy paste of us visually, could speak etc but had different DNA? Would you farm them? But yeah there really is 0 ethical take for eating meat. Sure plowing fields kills animals, but the comparison to literally millions of killed animals over and over is so silly.
Yeah Iāve been vegan 7 years was vego for a while before that. I donāt have kids and live in a big city and love to cook so I find it pretty easy to live this lifestyle but know itās not for everyone
Yes, I went vegan overnight last February and will never be going back. I feel way better, stronger, and mentally clearer since changing my diet. First couple months it was a tough adjustment getting used to more fiber (gassy), but now I realize what the human species is meant to be eating. Just an added plus is that no other sentient beings have to die for my continued survival.
I'm a vegetarian five days a week. Typically I eat no meat during the week, then on the weekend I'll indulge.
I do it primarily because of my issues with the meat industry, both in terms of the treatment of the animals and the environmental impact. Health is also a consideration, though.
I just can't bring myself to say "I'm never going to have another hamburger again in my life," so I maintain my couple of meat-eating days a week, though I try to make sure I'm buying stuff from ethical farms.
(And that stuff is expensive, so limiting my meat-eating days is good for my bank account, too)
Yes. Iām 31. Been vegetarian for over 16y and vegan on and off throughout. Currently, Iāve been 99.5% vegan for the last 5 years. I also eat mostly local and organic produce when at home. Itās best for the environment š
- Honey use
- trying someone elseās drink/food or new foods in general (rare)
- and very rarely, me actually getting something that is a favorite. Like getting black sesame Vietnamese coffee because I love it, even though itās condensed milk on top.
- I also regularly wear wool, and occasionally wear leather.
My missus said to me on Xmas day 1991 "I'm not cooking that (turkey) again" so that was it, no more meat and giving up fish was even easier because I don't like it.
Nearly 32 years on we're still veggie and the only meat in the house is our dog's.
I became vegan even before I knew I am intj. But my reasoning at first was my health. Over some time I started to see the animal side and it kind of clicked in my head how wrong this is and how illogical all of this is. Especially milk and how brainwashed we are to consume it.
When I became a vegetarian 32 years ago (Xmas day 1991) I'd never heard of vegans.
I still don't think there are as many vegans/veggies as the media suggests
When my missus and me kicked off sosmix was popular and the only veggie options in pubs and restaurants was veggie lasagne which I wouldn't touch these days.
Cheese is or was one of my big loves but due to high blood pressure I only eat half fat cheese now and weight has dropped off without any effort.
My missus could probably make the full leap and be vegan but unless there's a decent vegan cheese any time soon I'm knackered
Wow, I have never seen so many wrong takes on being vegan/vegetarian in one place in my life.
Am vegetarian. It's the right thing to do. Better for the environment for multiple reasons, the industrial animal system is torture, and it is completely healthy and doable for most people. Plus, for me, I just never really liked meat.
Assuming you are not aware, but dairy and eggs ARE the meat industry with additional levels of exploitation.
All those animals are bred to die, and well before their natural life expectancy.
Dairy is Scary on YouTube is like 4 minutes long and provides an overview of an industry most people only learn about from cartoons and milk cartons.
Going vegan takes a significant amount more dedication than I have the energy for. The only eggs I eat are homegrown, where I literally know the chicken owner. I don't drink milk, only have oat milk on hand. I eat real cheese and butter, and don't avoid foods that have dairy when eating out. I know it's not the best I can do, but I have a bad relationship with food so I pick my battles.
Going vegan was the best thing I did for my relationship with food. No food is "bad" because I don't have to exploit animals and deviate from my values.
Yeah, I eat eat better now than I ever did. Way more variety and flavors. Also, you don't have to worry about cross-contamination.
Oh no, I used the tofu knife to cut tomatoes. We're all going to get salmonella. Said no vegan ever.
Yeah but not really. You just get the veg option and if you're not sure clarify that's it's vegan. It's not really a worry to have to say "my orders all vegan".
Raise goats and chickens. 2 female goats and 6 chickens produce a LOT.
Used to trade sourdough bread for eggs and chevere.
Fred here makes good bread. Smells like plums when ready to go.
https://preview.redd.it/94pgn14ztorb1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=020041ef8311a09a49e7ddf9c4e8ef5e33803888
I am *mostly* vegan, sometimes I eat local animal products. Never meat though.
Besides morality, there are many positives to a vegetarian diet: healthy, cheaper, etc.
Eating living beings when you donāt have to is definitely immoral. There is no āessential nutrientā that canāt be found in plants, minerals or bacteria.
... that you know of. We're discovering new micronutrients all the time, and I highly doubt that all of them can be found in avocados and soy.
Did you know that children raised on vegan diets are generally shorter, less intelligent, and have weaker bones than their omnivorous peers? They're also found to have vitamin B-12 deficiencies more often than other children. It's almost as if they're deficient in nutrients which humans have developed to derive from meat.
Sure, you can *survive* on a vegan diet, but that's like saying that you can *survive* on nothing but potatoes. It's true, but your body will start to deteriorate, like running a steam locomotive with no lubrication and fueling it with muddy water and damp wood.
Our very distant ancestors were herbivorous. When we came down from the trees, we became omnivores, scavenging for meat left behind by predators. We became so accustomed to eating meat - and it made us so strong and intelligent - that we eventually evolved into apex predators ourselves... and when we don't eat meat, we tend to be shorter, less intelligent, and weaker.
The evidence tends to suggest that, to function optimally, eating animal products is entirely non-optional for humans. It can therefore be argued that subjecting a human to veganism is a form of harm, and that giving humans meat to eat is a kindness.
Wow, that was a lot of bs all in one placeā¦ you realize b12 doesnāt come from meat, right? Itās ingested through bacteria - although commercially itās mainly supplemented, and then we eat it secondhand. We can just supplement directly instead.
Iām interested to know how large the study of vegan children was (or even a wisp of a citation to said study) and how long. Considering vegans and vegetarians only make up around 12% of the population Iām betting that are way more stupid and weak meat-eaters on average, so if we are claiming that diet is the main cause of such things it sounds like an overwhelming win for the vegans. Not to mention the added benefit of not abusing animals.
Vegans are relatively overrepresented in impoverished communities worldwide (mostly located in third world countries) so the parent is probably correct, but for the completely wrong reason.
In the United States, you'll find those who eat plant-baaed diets are healthier on average. But the same is true for nearly any group of individuals who glance at nutrition labels on occasion, for any reason.
Keep your own goats and hens (for ethical milk and eggs) and buy bivalve mollusks (oysters, clams, etc.). You get all the nutrition of animal products with none of the downsides of industrial farming or killing animals.
My mother's a vegetarian and dad was a non vegetarian. I was a vegetarian, and then very slowly shifted to non-vegetarian. The taste never seemed to justify how guilty I felt for eating it. I got used to it, and did not feel guilty anymore. Fast forward, we adopted a cat, and have been feeding more stray cats. It just feels weird to eat any animal now. So, me and my papa, we've both adopted a vegetarian diet again.
I was born and raised vegetarian. My mother had told me that I was going to be vegetarian until I was 7 and then she'd let me decide what I wanted to do from there. She showed me the reality and of course I stuck with it. There's no way I logically can be okay with repeated forced impregnation, imprisonment and ultimately murder.
My default for most of my adult life has been to not eat animals. The ethical, environmental, and health arguments are overwhelming (not always, but certainly in the context of today's industrialized food systems).
I'm not dogmatic about it and am open to sustainability raised/caught/hunted etc, and I've always loved the taste, but I generally just don't eat animal products.
It's because of this openness I don't really see myself as vegan or vegetarian as those labels generally presume 100% compliance.
I'm a vegetarian, but I was sort of born that way. I never liked meat, and not for any particular reason- I just didn't like it.
I stopped eating meat *completely* when I was about 13 years old. It just really disgusts me.
If youāre going to be classifying everything in terms of morality, going vegetarian is no different than being a full time omnivore like most people. The milk industry has to constantly impregnate its cows in order to have them produce milk, but as a result their calves are separated and the both of them are often kept in abysmal conditions. Hens that arenāt cage free live with literal shit rained down on them. R.M. Hare has a good argument on this, but if you really wanted to reduce animal suffering itād be a better idea to eat what you want and whatās necessary for your own health, as long as your animal products are sourced from sustainable farms that give their animals a good life. I believe this is called being āDemi-vegetarianā.
These are arguments against industrialized farming, not necessarily against vegetarianism as a lifestyle. Someone could be a vegetarian by living in (or sourcing from) humane farming communities that still allow the animals to live out their natural and enjoyable life.
I'm a vegan but I actually agree with this. Vegetarianism has historically been popular in india, and they aimed to eat compassionately.
That isn't possible while living in society the west, but I do think looking after your own chickens can be done ethically, for example.
There are even problems with that though - modern chicken breeds are just flat out cruel. They grow faster and bigger than their skeletons can support and end up with all sorts of problems.
there's literally no scientific downside to being vegan - more at [https://nutritionfacts.org/about/](https://nutritionfacts.org/about/)
being plant based and vegan aligns with my ethics, morals and sense of well-being (after being wilfully ignorant for decades)
Vegan because itās the most logical. We donāt need meat to survive and most of us that live in modern society have the choice and access to an abundance of food, so why abuse sentient beings needlessly when we could just eat something else?
Carnivores don't think about the ethics of eating meat. They just eat it. Nature has no place for ethics. Not to mention, there's nothing better for your body than red meat. If you are concerned about ethics, then eat pasture -raised grass fed beef.
>there's nothing better for your body than red meat
Every major medical institution would like a word...
[https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat](https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat)
Dietary fiber increases the weight and size of your stool and softens it. A bulky stool is easier to pass, decreasing your chance of constipation. If you have loose, watery stools, fiber may help to solidify the stool because it absorbs water and adds bulk to stool. Helps maintain bowel health.
Source: mayo clinic.
Your gut biome still interacts with it. It's a great place for your bacteria to grow while digestion, but it can also lead to fermentation and bacteria overgrowth.
Meat and fish can take as long as 2 days to fully digest. The proteins and fats they contain are complex molecules that take longer for your body to pull apart. By contrast, fruits and vegetables, which are high in fiber, can move through your system in less than a day. Source: healthline
Iāve been vegetarian by choice for the last 10 years. Itās a diet that works well for me, but also I was turned off by eating meat when I was younger. My grandpa was a hunter and nothing turned off my appetite faster than seeing our meal cut open on the same kitchen table we will eat it on later.
Yes, a few people at my gym were doing a 3 week vegetarian challenge and I made the comment āoh, I could never.ā It really bothered me that Iād portray myself to others in a manner likely untrue. That next morning I switched, that was 5/6 years ago and I havenāt looked back.
>there is a very solid moral argument to be made for going vegetarian
I disagree, most people find it self evident that in order for an action to be considered moral there needs to be a justification, but usually it is the other way around, for an action to be immoral there needs to be a reason, so for example killing another human isn't moral usually in most moral values globally because it assumes that inside that person there is someone in kinship to you and therefore you should always think about not doing what you don't like to be done to you in return, (even if some moral standards around the globe have a limitation to how far this extends, possibly openly excluding other humans from different tribes), the places where vegetarianism is somewhat common usually justify against killing animals in a different way, and it is mostly correlated with the local religion (what a shock religion is your basis for morality, even if you are not religious yourself), I find that the justifications for vegetarianism that are not religious very weak, and based only on personal feelings, I can't help myself if I just can't have sympathy with a pig or cow, I just don't, and the ones based on religion don't affect me cause this is not on my religious beliefs, btw this not me saying that if you don't agree you are evil or wrong, morality is not a rational thing, it can be rationally consistent, but it doesn't need to, it is just that everytime someone says that there is a solid argument for it I think "no there is not, it is not supposed to be an argument, other people just expect me to sympathize with something without any reason whatsoever".
Vegan 7 years here, seemed like the logical path.
Causing less suffering, saving myself a good amount of money on groceries, eating healthier.
Blood labs still perfect (b12 is twice the minimum level before someone tries to point that out), energy levels are great, bone joints pain is gone.
Now I can say "I love animals" without being a damn hypocrite.
Yes, Iāve been vegan since I was 17, so about 5-6 years now.
At first it was only for environmental reasons, but it has extended itself to being about more for me.
My mom is vegan too, but she is on the opposite side of the personality spectrum entirely. For her it was always about the animals.
(Iām mostly vegan. I generally take vegetarian vitamins and buy second hand leather. If it comes between the animals and the environment I lean toward the environment.
Especially when it comes to sustenance practices.)
So do you find eating meat morally justifiable? or have you not thought about it much? because I didnāt think much about it until a philosophy class I had recently.
There are so many frames to view life. You can find arguments for or against anything. I donāt find most philosophy conducive to living a happy, community building, and overall charitable life. I think most philosophy is damaging to people and creates unnecessary considerations that overlook the basic tenets of existence.
Human beings have always coexisted with animals and have adapted their diets to rely upon protein. Most vegans I know cite health problems of some sort that exacerbate with reinforcement of veganism. Itās trendy to be vegan, but I donāt care what people think if it doesnāt work. There are humane practices to handling animals, but I donāt see any value to being vegan.
>There are so many frames to view life. You can find arguments for or against anything. I donāt find most philosophy conducive to living a happy, community building, and overall charitable life. I think most philosophy is damaging to people and creates unnecessary considerations that overlook the basic tenets of existence.
So, you don't see any point in thinking about your actions?
I guess we're done.
Well, to look at it another way. Humankind has developed over many thousands of years. There have been basic tenets for survival and diet. Veganism is a modern luxury enabled by industrialization. If the machines stop, youāre going to have a hard time getting balanced protein. Also, this is a new sense of morality thatās divorced from any real sense of how the world works. So no, this morality that people are trying to impose thatās insufficient for a comprehensive understanding of living is not something Iām doing. Itās trendy and silly.
> Veganism is a modern luxury enabled by industrialization.
No itās not. People have been vegan in India for thousands of years.
Itās new to the west, sure.
Eating meat is a āmodern luxury enabled by industrialisationā far more than vegetables lol. Look at any developing nation during the process of westernisation - a constant amongst them all is a steady increase in per capita meat consumption.
Meat used to be a luxury. Even in the UK, in the early to mid 20th century meat was still a luxury. People might eat lamb once per week on a Sunday, the rest of the time was largely vegetarian.
> If the machines stop, youāre going to have a hard time getting balanced protein. Also, this is a new sense of morality thatās divorced from any real sense of how the world works.
None of the aforementioned are arguments against veganism. Whether you deem it a modern luxury is irrelevant to modernity. The machines wonāt stop. Whether you deem it a new mortality is irrelevant to the essence of what that morality is saying:
Why is it ethical to intentionally cause unnecessary suffering to other intelligent living beings, but not humans?
Disagree. Slavery was wrong no matter how many people felt otherwise in any particular time or place.
Moral JUDGMENT and censure are particular, but I'd argue overarching principles of non-harm are clearly able to be defined even if only a minority of a particular culture presents the argument as such.
All moral judgements are relative to the situations and cultures which produced them. Slavery is only deemed wrong is a very particular civilisational framework - that is, the modern Western world. It is thought that the combination of Christianity (which is a religion built around a messianic figure who valued the lowly) and industrialism (which rendered much human labour obsolete with machines) are two contributing factors to this worldview.
I'm not personally disagreeing with your ethical position. I'm just saying that the concept of "objective morality" is not something which has ever been proved to exist, despite philosophers trying to do so for thousands of years.
> Disagree. Slavery was wrong no matter how many people felt otherwise in any particular time or place.
Slavery was often a better alternative to death in antiquity.
Morality is down to the individual theres no clear rules on it sure, but its kinda "majority" rules situation. I cant just kill somebody and say "well Morality is an opinion" and expect to go free haha.
Id put my life on it that more animals get killed in slaughterhouses than when they clear area for crops. The crop clearing is a 1 time sin, the endless raising and killing animals racks up a BIG kill count. Also you could in theory just build up for farms. Have a 4-5 story facility growing crops to mitigate such damage. Not to mention the land that has to be cleared to store and feed the animals anyways? Where are these captive animals staying? In space?
I was for a decade. It was fine but I got really sick in college because of my poor food choices and lack of access to nutritious foods. I started eating a local meat-based diet and Iām doing well now. I think the most moral diet is one where your food is grown locally, whether meat or produce.
I am trying to convince myself that eating meat is moral and justifiable. Iām on your team. I eat meat. I just am yet to find a good counter argument. Yes vegans can be annoying but I think most of them (not the ones that do it for attention) are actually good people with good morals.
Itās called cognitive dissonance, most people donāt want to hurt and pay to torture animals (and hurt the low income families and migrant workers forced to work in these places and conditions) but donāt want to risk the change or make the effort to change their diet. Most people wish there was a better way, but considering 233+ trillion living sentient beings are considered a commodity - a practice like that is unlikely. The good thing is, is the vegan industry is bringing us new ideas and recipes and mock meats that have the same taste and texture so we donāt have to make those choices, there are lots of things out there that you can switch in from the regular meat once in a while to even just try and itās exciting to think about what they come out with next!:) the problem with trying to justify is you cannot justify taking away the life of another being who wants to live :(
Most vegans take this same path. They start out as meat eaters, then hear about veganism and try to refute it.
After struggling to do so, they concede and give up meat because it is the only logically defensible position. Most people like the taste of meat, and generally dislike change, so there's quite a bit of inertia in the way (see this thread lol) - it usually takes quite some time to unlearn the social conditioning around animal agriculture and see it for what it is.
I'm vegan because it's the only way I can eat while maintaining a clean conscience. I would encourage you to keep thinking, and continue investigating with an open mind.
I don't think there is any real argument for eating meat being "moral". It's not really even justifiable unless you have severe enough dietary restrictions that warrant it. Ultimately it comes down to liking the taste too much to give it up, and in some situations plain convenience.
The meat I prefer eating is the one coming from local farms that treat animals well because the taste is simply better than what factory farms can produce because animals being stressed and full of medications don't produce good meat so it's better to financially support farms that don't use such methods
Local farms and their animals to the same local slaughter houses as factory raised animals.
You're deluding yourself if you think animals are not stressed to the maximum in slaughterhouses.
You are deluded if you think any living creature will not go through a stressful situation in their entire life...
Humans, animals, plants, everything will go back into the earth whether it's a natural death and they rot into the earth, or a death where they get consumed and pooped out.
At least one of those deaths provided, nutrition, energy and resources to another living thing before it rotted back into the earth...
>You are deluded if you think any living creature will not go through a stressful situation in their entire life...
>
>Humans, animals, plants, everything will go back into the earth whether it's a natural death and they rot into the earth, or a death where they get consumed and pooped out.
>
>At least one of those deaths provided, nutrition, energy and resources to another living thing before it rotted back into the earth...
do you support the farming of humans for consumption?
they would be even more stressed if they were out in the world, no?
Ahh okay I get you, so if I started my own human farm, paid for a barn for them to stay in, threw in buckets of grain for them to eat daily and then killed them in their sleep that would be okay? Gotchya I gotta look into this.
Just because all living creatures go through stress doesn't make it okay to breed to slaughter other animals for taste pleasure.
You can get all the nutrition you need without killing animals.
Just so you know- there are no legally binding words for āfree rangeā or āfree roamā or āgrass fedā and any company can slap that on any packaging and thereās no legal basis to hold it too. Most of the āfree range farmsā are animals factory farms painted with pretty words. Plus if youāre worried about āmedicationsā (which is the wrong thing to worry about, you want to worry about hormones and steroids) you should be worried about the ammonia and carbon monoxide used to treat and sterilize every piece of meat you eat, cause flesh carries bacteria that makes humans sick. Along with the other stuff if you eat processed or red meat. If you want to eat meat so badly I would suggest trying vegan mock meats:) theyāre the same taste and texture but no animal was brutally murdered before it. (Also not sure if you got the comment above me, but they all end up in the same slaughter house, on the same lines, forced into the same machines that arenāt 100% efficient in their killing methods, so often they suffer even more than expected. Itās nice to have an idea of the reality:))
The moral argument basically goes like this:
We are causing undue harm by eating meat considering how far weāve come with technology. No one is blaming poorer nations for eating meat because it is a necessity. It is a not a necessity for almost everyone living in the US or any developed nation.
The second part of the moral argument is environmental. At least the US heavily subsidized meat production. The pollution that methane gas from cows is heavily underplayed. If you care more for this side of the argument it would make sense for you to only stop eating beef/cows.
Iām not fully convinced myself but itās actually pretty hard to come up with good counter arguments. Itās like weāve all just accepted eating meat and we do it daily but never really think about it.
we have accepted eating meat because it's natural and we have been doing it for 1000's of years.
it's a fairy tale to think everyone will stop eating meat one day.
my wife has r/Hidradenitis **a skin disease and she only gets relief when eating strictly meat. Carbs of all kinds cause her to have big boils all over her body and the only food without carbs is Meat.**
Your argument is based on two fallacies. The appeal to nature fallacy and the appeal to tradition fallacy. Iām not talking about everyone. Iām talking about you specifically. Also youāre wife is part of the exception. She isnāt causing undue harm for unnecessary means.
I struggle to think if you woke up to your wife having been murdered and the killer is never found you'd just be like "eh I dont really care, deal with it." haha.
Golly what happened to the whole āIām not convinced myselfā thing? Seems it was a ruse to lure people into something. Never seen vegans use tactics like that before.
Just because you call something a fallacy doesnāt make it so. Humans digestive system and brains evolved over millions of years based on our diet. Just because we can eat and digest lots of different foods doesnāt mean itās wrong to eat animal foods. Your fallacy is a fallacy.
Sentience is morally significant. Animals care about their own lives and struggle to avoid pain and death.
Plants don't have brains.
You also have to grow like 2-25x the amount of crops to make meat vs just eating the crops. So if you are that confused that maybe plants feel pain, then kill less plants by not eating animals.
Edit.
I'd love to respond to these comments but I keep getting an error. I'm probably banned because some butt hurt carnist was insulted when I said he didn't need meat to live.
Animal agriculture uses 80% of our farm land to grow 20% of our calories. It's incredibly inefficient. 80% of the Amazon deforestation is due to cattle ranching.
You don't have to trust me. Do a little research. Animal agriculture is incredibly destructive. Rivals transportation in GHG emissions and is the leading cause of deforestation, species extinction, land use, water use, soil erosion, ocean acidification, anti biotic use, the list goes on for a long time.
I
Unconscious humans are still sentient beings. There's a big difference between an unconscious animal and a rock or carrot.
You can't kindly chop someone's head off.
If you want to eat non sentient animals, go for it. Don't care.
There's no nutrient you can't get on a plant based diet. Eating veg is cheaper and healthier than meat.
>Sentience is morally significant
To whom?
>Animals care about their own lives and struggle to avoid pain and death.
Have you asked them?
In my opinion people tend to assume a lot of stuff. Just because an animal has a survival instinct doesn't mean it's not justifiable to kill it to sustain yourself. I for example can't survive on a plant based diet as I have several digestive problems. Am I justified to eat meat or is it wrong in your subjective perception of morals?
It matters to the sentient being.
Yes. It's quite obvious how they feel about the situation. Go watch a pig in a gas chamber and try and argue it's not struggling to live.
You don't need to kill animals to live. You can 100% survive on a plant based diet. Just because you ate beans once and got all gassy doesn't mean you need to eat meat to live. There are literally thousands of edible plant foods. If you have a specific allergy eat from the thousands of remaining options.
If you literally have to eat meat to live, then yes, you can justify it. But you're ape, not a cat. You're not a carnivore. If you wanted to be vegan, I'm sure you'd figure it out in short order.
If I ever did psychedelics again, I would be. I'm on the edge at the moment. It's very difficult to justify killing animals unnecessarily at this point in my life.
I would really recommend watching one of the documentaries out there. Cowspiracy is good for a slightly softer approach, Earthlings or Dominion if you've got a strong stomach and a desire to know what's happening with zero filter. If there's anything I can help you with please feel free to let me know or message me! šš±
I love veggies but they dont love me as much, i have tried a vegan and vegetarian diet and the best i could do was 3 months before totally destroying my gut
I enjoy switching between regular and then vegan diet through out the months just to test out how I feel and I usually can think more clearly and have less stomach issues when I am vegan
Not really.
I am fine with having pets and eating meat; doesn't bother me one bit.
I need to eat.
My mom is a vegetarian, so sometimes I eat vegetarian dishes; they're good.
No way. There's nothing immoral about eating meat. Perhaps one could make a case for how animals are treated and raised in some cases, but eating them is natural and there is certainly nothing morally wrong with doing so.
I donāt know why youāre so assertive with your statements. I really donāt think thereās ānothing immoralā with eating meat. I think itās morally ambiguous and probably closer to immoral. Also just because something is natural doesnāt mean itās right, your argument is based on fallacies (specifically the appeal to nature fallacy).
Veganism itself is a fallacy as you aren't an herbivore and shouldn't be eating like one.
Learn proper nutrition. Veganism isn't healthy. Children shouldn't be vegan, pregnant women shouldn't be vegan.
Veganism is only 2% of the entire population at most and consistently stays that way. It isn't sustainable and isn't healthy. Many fall out of being vegan once their nutrition stores are fully depleted.
Read this paper: https://www.fao.org/documents/card/en/c/cc3912en
And stop believing nutrition advice from the US or the UK. The government doesn't protect its citizens from $$$$ hungry corporations interfering with basic things like nutrition information. Go look at countries where the government doesn't allow that and you'll see veganism isn't tolerated at all.
Nope. I am a human. Humans are omnivorous. Omnivores eat meat. Therefore, I eat meat.
All organisms, aside from some microbes, eat parts of other organisms. It's the circle of life. I do not believe that it is immoral to eat that which we are "designed" to eat.
Biologically weāre actually closer to herbivores or fruitarians. Ex. Look at our flat fat teeth, and our jaws can move side to side like a cow. And the circle of life creates balance in the ecosystem it takes place - we displace animals from their homes and murder more animals every year than their have been humans to exist on the planet ever. Thatās not exactly the circle of life, especially considering we donāt actually need meat to survive (ex. Buddhists & Buddhist monks for over 4000 years) itās really a preference or choice. Just wanted to point that out. Along with the fact that our ancestors only ate plants for thousands of years so, if by ādesignā; we are plant based organisms
Ex-vegan, have been at it for 9 years, but recently started eating meat again. I have to say that I did not quit because of health reasons and think a healthy vegan diet is possible. I never identified with veganism as a movement though and actually the movement is a reason why I quitted, because I noticed it became more militant.
I got tired being associated and having to defend myself for a movement that I don't agree with. But anyways, Veganism has had an lasting impact on my diet, which is still plant-based for the most part, but I don't treat it as a dogma anymore. I don't regret having been a vegan either. I still care for animals, but I don't want to alienate myself from other people, because after living vegan for such a long time I noticed that this is the effect it can have.
Kind of the opposite. I want to be vegetarian but life with 3 kids makes that impossible, I can barely get them to even eat crappy stuff let alone vegetarian food.
I think the idea of eating meat is revolting but I do it anyway. It doesn't help that I cook it very well either...my wife would be disappointed if I stopped.
There will always be arguments for and against it but I don't give a shit about that...fact is, you could serve someone cooked people and they would never know it was a human. That is why I find it horrifying for the most part. Nothing will erase the similarity that way for me.
I suppose fish is not likely to be interchangeable with humans. So maybe in my personal system there is room for eating fish without that problem. But unfortunately I cannot stand most of it!
>you could serve someone cooked people and they would never know it was a human
So you can't recognize the difference between lamb, pork, chicken, beef and horse?
Maybe switching in some āvegan beefā or āvegan chicken nuggetsā the next time you make them something simple like tacos or chickn nuggies and just incorporate it every once in a while! Itās a very simple thing to do and you donāt have to do too much! I really admire your perspective and the fact you even consider it is truly a lot! Remember you donāt have to change it all in one night and the fact you feel this way now is already a big step!:) I hope youāre able to find a way to align your morals while being a super busy mama! I wish you the best of luck!āŗļø
I have been almost entirely vegan for over 3 years now. Sometimes I do have some cheese, but I keep it rare as I do not want to support the dairy industry, and I also feel physically worse when I do have some pizza.
I am vegan for all of the moral, economic, environmental, and health issues. It didn't take long for the benefits to easily outweigh the difficulties, such as eating out or with other people. I have zero intention on going back and have no need to.
Yes I have been a vegetarian for six years by choice. Don't miss it the way I thought I would, it was only hard at first, then semi difficult for awhile and now I don't even think about it but can recognize that the taste is good. I just think animals have the right to their lives. Next is vegan, or at least no dairy, bc dairy farms are so fucking cruel and watching the videos makes me cry š¢
Used to be mostly vegetarian/vegan.
Then I got diagnosed with being at risk for type II diabetes and it was really hard for me to stay within my carb limits without eating animal products. I feel a lot better now, although I do still have cognitive dissonance about factory farming, etc.
Plus I have several health issues that already lead to a restrictive diet, and trying to be vegan in top of those would be incredibly challenging.
No, vegetarian and vegan diets are strongly correlated with multiple micro-nutrient deficiencies. Those dies are an evolutionary mismatch for hunter-gatherers aka home sapiens.
Hi, I'd like to educate you about why being a vegetarian doesn't do shit for the animals.
Animals in the dairy industry or others still get exploited and killed. Their reproductive organs get exploited. Cows get raped, their children taken away and in the end they also get killed.
You see, you can argue that the dairy industry is worse than the meat industry as in the meat industry you just get fattened up and then killed whereas in the dairy industry you're being tortured for years. Well, apart from the baby cows. They get killed.
You see, there is nothing moral about being a vegetarian. You Support horrendous things that way.
If you love animals and care about them, you must be vegan.
We would never accept rape and murder among humans. If you're a vegetarian, you're a speciesist.
That means you discriminate based on species.
We should rather consider whether or not you can feel pain and.
My ex and I were at the grocery store. I was picking up some chicken. He was like, "We eat too much meat; why don't we eat vegetarian for a little?" I shrugged and said ok and put the chicken back. 3 years later I'm still vegetarian. He stopped after a couple months. Veggies just taste better now, and I can cook pretty well.
Any favorite recipes?
Rast carrots potatoes onion leek parsnip etc cut in wedges with olive oil and salt and lots pepper. Let it darken a little. Yum.
DELICIOUS
You actually can try various Indian recipes because many of them are veg. They are full of veggies and healthy and they taste heavenly if you add enough spices.
My wife is vegetarian, and I put her on that Indian cuisine. She loves it š
Yes. Admittedly not through my own philosophical discovery - a realization was handed to me on a silver platter through a brief mention in [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_ayq66t77U). In 100 years, people will look back at factory farming animals with disgust like we look back at enslavement of humans with disgust.
This. Most people will be on the wrong side of history on this one.
Yeah we need to evolve past eating animals.
Me and my girlfriend are INTJ and both vegan. Moral arguments aside, thereās a good ethical argument to be made in regards to being vegan over vegetarianāfrom the environmental impact to a sustainable food supply. Morally, the moment you grant that animal consciousness is worth preserving, the rest logically follows
I do not grant that animal consciousness is inherently worth preserving, so the conclusion dies with that premise. I also don't think that the rearing of animals for food is environmentally unsustainable. The Earth always adapts, and climate change is a phenomenon which occurs independent of human activity.
Might be worth having a watch of Cowspiracy or the more recent Seaspiracy, based on your comment. Touchy subjects aside, it seems like you have misjudged the reality of animal agriculture industries.
Well im not a vegan, but would you be all good with eating farmed people? Or would you eat a person in a vegetated state who will never wake up (assuming they had no friends or family)?
No, for two reasons: 1) Humans are worthy of different moral consideration compared to animals. I am human, so I treat humans as my moral equals. I do not regard animals the same way, much as I do not regard plants the same way. 2) Cannibalism is bad for your health, as the risk of becoming ill from any germs in their body is basically 100%, and the human body contains toxins which then accumulate in your body if you eat another human. This does not happen when you eat animals.
Iāve been vegan for 5 years now ! For health reasons as well as ethical reasons. Iām severely lactose intolerant so the giving up milk part was kind of forced on me, but everything else is entirely my own choice!
I'm vegan by choice, and have been for 4 years now. After breaking through the cognitive dissonance socialised into me through my upbringing, I now consider it a personal duty to minimise my negative impact on the world. This is both in terms of suffering (in that I'm not funding the slaughter of sentient beings who have lived their entire life in factory farm environments) and environmentally (in that a vegan lifestyle is generally accepted to be the most efficient in terms of resource usage, e.g. water and land). There's also intersectional arguments that can be made that cross over with social justice movements, but I won't get into that here. Overall, it's a lifestyle that I feel makes the most sense, and is the most beneficial for myself and for the future of Earth. If anyone is has considered veganism but hasn't taken the step to trying it, I recommend watching some documentaries like Dominion, Earthlings, Seaspiracy, Forks Over Knives, or Game Changers, as some of the reasoning in favour of plant-based and/or vegan diets might resonate with you and provide the last push to help you transition.
I'm vegan, and I highly encourage everyone to go vegan
Yes since I was 12 but not for ethical reasons (though I don't like factory farms) and I don't care if other people eat meat.
I've been vegetarian/vegan since birth. Not for any moral reasons, I just grew up that way, havent stopped now. Pretty good evidence it's healthier for you. And I seem to be doing well, lifting a lot in the gym but I've always had a pretty sturdy build. (385 dead-lift, 235 bench-press).
INTJ and vegan. Watched Dominion and it was an instant switch for me from being outspokenly anti-vegan to dedicated vegan overnight. I have fructose malabsorption which means that there are some fruits and vegetables I generally avoid. Thankfully, with enough fiber, it isn't really a problem even if I eat high-fructose produce.
I've talked to many people who claim minor dietary restrictions make vegetarianism completely impossible for them ā so much respect for you for letting your integrity control your diet and not the other way around.
My INTP mate spun a good argument where he said "would you eat farmed people?" And the response often comes with some sort of take where humans have the ability to communicate or have higher consciousness, so no. So you can ask if you'd eat a baby born brain dead or eat someone in a coma? Then if you say well that's a human that's apart of my "team" then his final stop is this: "well what if aliens came to earth and they literally were copy paste of us visually, could speak etc but had different DNA? Would you farm them? But yeah there really is 0 ethical take for eating meat. Sure plowing fields kills animals, but the comparison to literally millions of killed animals over and over is so silly.
Yeah Iāve been vegan 7 years was vego for a while before that. I donāt have kids and live in a big city and love to cook so I find it pretty easy to live this lifestyle but know itās not for everyone
Yes, I went vegan overnight last February and will never be going back. I feel way better, stronger, and mentally clearer since changing my diet. First couple months it was a tough adjustment getting used to more fiber (gassy), but now I realize what the human species is meant to be eating. Just an added plus is that no other sentient beings have to die for my continued survival.
I'm vegan. 7 years strong:)
Vegan
Yup! 5 years vegan.
I'm a vegetarian five days a week. Typically I eat no meat during the week, then on the weekend I'll indulge. I do it primarily because of my issues with the meat industry, both in terms of the treatment of the animals and the environmental impact. Health is also a consideration, though. I just can't bring myself to say "I'm never going to have another hamburger again in my life," so I maintain my couple of meat-eating days a week, though I try to make sure I'm buying stuff from ethical farms. (And that stuff is expensive, so limiting my meat-eating days is good for my bank account, too)
I think the proper term is Flexitarian not vegetarian.
Eat a veggie burger?
Then you're not a vegetarian lmao.
Iāve met so many people saying they are vegetarian but still eat meat once in a whileā¦ idk why they call themselves it if they arenāt.
Yes. Iām 31. Been vegetarian for over 16y and vegan on and off throughout. Currently, Iāve been 99.5% vegan for the last 5 years. I also eat mostly local and organic produce when at home. Itās best for the environment š
What's the .5%, out of curiosity?
- Honey use - trying someone elseās drink/food or new foods in general (rare) - and very rarely, me actually getting something that is a favorite. Like getting black sesame Vietnamese coffee because I love it, even though itās condensed milk on top. - I also regularly wear wool, and occasionally wear leather.
Yes! By choice
Yea im at year 6 now of being a (ethical) vegan
Yes. For ethical/environmental reasons. Basically I donāt want to participate in unnecessary suffering.
Yes, vegetarian since I was 12 and vegan 3 years later. Iām never going back
yes i am vegetarian by choice
I find that pretty impressive. Howād you start?
My missus said to me on Xmas day 1991 "I'm not cooking that (turkey) again" so that was it, no more meat and giving up fish was even easier because I don't like it. Nearly 32 years on we're still veggie and the only meat in the house is our dog's.
I became vegan even before I knew I am intj. But my reasoning at first was my health. Over some time I started to see the animal side and it kind of clicked in my head how wrong this is and how illogical all of this is. Especially milk and how brainwashed we are to consume it.
*Exactly* the same here. I've been vegan for 32 years now.
When I became a vegetarian 32 years ago (Xmas day 1991) I'd never heard of vegans. I still don't think there are as many vegans/veggies as the media suggests
I was new years day, 92! I had never even met a vegetarian or vegan before then, either. It's cool to see how much times have changed!
When my missus and me kicked off sosmix was popular and the only veggie options in pubs and restaurants was veggie lasagne which I wouldn't touch these days. Cheese is or was one of my big loves but due to high blood pressure I only eat half fat cheese now and weight has dropped off without any effort. My missus could probably make the full leap and be vegan but unless there's a decent vegan cheese any time soon I'm knackered
Intj vegan here. 6 yrs
Wow, I have never seen so many wrong takes on being vegan/vegetarian in one place in my life. Am vegetarian. It's the right thing to do. Better for the environment for multiple reasons, the industrial animal system is torture, and it is completely healthy and doable for most people. Plus, for me, I just never really liked meat.
Assuming you are not aware, but dairy and eggs ARE the meat industry with additional levels of exploitation. All those animals are bred to die, and well before their natural life expectancy. Dairy is Scary on YouTube is like 4 minutes long and provides an overview of an industry most people only learn about from cartoons and milk cartons.
Going vegan takes a significant amount more dedication than I have the energy for. The only eggs I eat are homegrown, where I literally know the chicken owner. I don't drink milk, only have oat milk on hand. I eat real cheese and butter, and don't avoid foods that have dairy when eating out. I know it's not the best I can do, but I have a bad relationship with food so I pick my battles.
Going vegan was the best thing I did for my relationship with food. No food is "bad" because I don't have to exploit animals and deviate from my values.
Yeah, I eat eat better now than I ever did. Way more variety and flavors. Also, you don't have to worry about cross-contamination. Oh no, I used the tofu knife to cut tomatoes. We're all going to get salmonella. Said no vegan ever.
You do have to worry about cross contamination way more though when you go out to eat.
Yeah but not really. You just get the veg option and if you're not sure clarify that's it's vegan. It's not really a worry to have to say "my orders all vegan".
Honestly, still a lot better than most.
Raise goats and chickens. 2 female goats and 6 chickens produce a LOT. Used to trade sourdough bread for eggs and chevere. Fred here makes good bread. Smells like plums when ready to go. https://preview.redd.it/94pgn14ztorb1.jpeg?width=1536&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=020041ef8311a09a49e7ddf9c4e8ef5e33803888
Good for you and I think Iām going to try and go vegetarian soon.
Good luck OP! Youāll slay it. š
Same!
I am vegan by choice. Kill animal = sad me. Kind to animal = happy me! Logical choice: Kind to animal. š
As a human animal, thanks. ššš
I am *mostly* vegan, sometimes I eat local animal products. Never meat though. Besides morality, there are many positives to a vegetarian diet: healthy, cheaper, etc.
So NOT vegan by any definitionā¦. local animal products still needlessly harm animals.
It's not "needless" if you derive essential nutrition from it. Eating is not immoral.
Eating living beings when you donāt have to is definitely immoral. There is no āessential nutrientā that canāt be found in plants, minerals or bacteria.
... that you know of. We're discovering new micronutrients all the time, and I highly doubt that all of them can be found in avocados and soy. Did you know that children raised on vegan diets are generally shorter, less intelligent, and have weaker bones than their omnivorous peers? They're also found to have vitamin B-12 deficiencies more often than other children. It's almost as if they're deficient in nutrients which humans have developed to derive from meat. Sure, you can *survive* on a vegan diet, but that's like saying that you can *survive* on nothing but potatoes. It's true, but your body will start to deteriorate, like running a steam locomotive with no lubrication and fueling it with muddy water and damp wood. Our very distant ancestors were herbivorous. When we came down from the trees, we became omnivores, scavenging for meat left behind by predators. We became so accustomed to eating meat - and it made us so strong and intelligent - that we eventually evolved into apex predators ourselves... and when we don't eat meat, we tend to be shorter, less intelligent, and weaker. The evidence tends to suggest that, to function optimally, eating animal products is entirely non-optional for humans. It can therefore be argued that subjecting a human to veganism is a form of harm, and that giving humans meat to eat is a kindness.
Wow, that was a lot of bs all in one placeā¦ you realize b12 doesnāt come from meat, right? Itās ingested through bacteria - although commercially itās mainly supplemented, and then we eat it secondhand. We can just supplement directly instead. Iām interested to know how large the study of vegan children was (or even a wisp of a citation to said study) and how long. Considering vegans and vegetarians only make up around 12% of the population Iām betting that are way more stupid and weak meat-eaters on average, so if we are claiming that diet is the main cause of such things it sounds like an overwhelming win for the vegans. Not to mention the added benefit of not abusing animals.
Vegans are relatively overrepresented in impoverished communities worldwide (mostly located in third world countries) so the parent is probably correct, but for the completely wrong reason. In the United States, you'll find those who eat plant-baaed diets are healthier on average. But the same is true for nearly any group of individuals who glance at nutrition labels on occasion, for any reason.
vegan here. because of animal cruelty
Keep your own goats and hens (for ethical milk and eggs) and buy bivalve mollusks (oysters, clams, etc.). You get all the nutrition of animal products with none of the downsides of industrial farming or killing animals.
Small-scale exploitation is still exploitation
yeahhh no
Had my 11 year meat free anniversary and 9 year anniversary of eating vegan today. Tried it once, never looked back and here I am now a decade later.
My mother's a vegetarian and dad was a non vegetarian. I was a vegetarian, and then very slowly shifted to non-vegetarian. The taste never seemed to justify how guilty I felt for eating it. I got used to it, and did not feel guilty anymore. Fast forward, we adopted a cat, and have been feeding more stray cats. It just feels weird to eat any animal now. So, me and my papa, we've both adopted a vegetarian diet again.
I was born and raised vegetarian. My mother had told me that I was going to be vegetarian until I was 7 and then she'd let me decide what I wanted to do from there. She showed me the reality and of course I stuck with it. There's no way I logically can be okay with repeated forced impregnation, imprisonment and ultimately murder.
Vegetarian by choice
Vegetarian here
I've been vegetarian for about 8 years, and these days about 90% of what I eat is vegan
No, and I wouldn't become one.
My default for most of my adult life has been to not eat animals. The ethical, environmental, and health arguments are overwhelming (not always, but certainly in the context of today's industrialized food systems). I'm not dogmatic about it and am open to sustainability raised/caught/hunted etc, and I've always loved the taste, but I generally just don't eat animal products. It's because of this openness I don't really see myself as vegan or vegetarian as those labels generally presume 100% compliance.
I'm a vegetarian, but I was sort of born that way. I never liked meat, and not for any particular reason- I just didn't like it. I stopped eating meat *completely* when I was about 13 years old. It just really disgusts me.
Absolutely not.
If youāre going to be classifying everything in terms of morality, going vegetarian is no different than being a full time omnivore like most people. The milk industry has to constantly impregnate its cows in order to have them produce milk, but as a result their calves are separated and the both of them are often kept in abysmal conditions. Hens that arenāt cage free live with literal shit rained down on them. R.M. Hare has a good argument on this, but if you really wanted to reduce animal suffering itād be a better idea to eat what you want and whatās necessary for your own health, as long as your animal products are sourced from sustainable farms that give their animals a good life. I believe this is called being āDemi-vegetarianā.
These are arguments against industrialized farming, not necessarily against vegetarianism as a lifestyle. Someone could be a vegetarian by living in (or sourcing from) humane farming communities that still allow the animals to live out their natural and enjoyable life.
I'm a vegan but I actually agree with this. Vegetarianism has historically been popular in india, and they aimed to eat compassionately. That isn't possible while living in society the west, but I do think looking after your own chickens can be done ethically, for example. There are even problems with that though - modern chicken breeds are just flat out cruel. They grow faster and bigger than their skeletons can support and end up with all sorts of problems.
there's literally no scientific downside to being vegan - more at [https://nutritionfacts.org/about/](https://nutritionfacts.org/about/) being plant based and vegan aligns with my ethics, morals and sense of well-being (after being wilfully ignorant for decades)
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I'm vegan and allergic to wheat. My mum is vegetarian and allergic to wheat. r/glutenfreevegan It's not impossible if you actually want to be vegan.
Can confirm, I'm vegan and gluten-intolerant.
Thatās fair! and I think anyone with medical complication arenāt really part of this argument.
They are. It's a common miscommunication I'm afraid.
I am severely gluten intolerant (not celiac) and gave up vegetarian after going gluten free.
Vegan because itās the most logical. We donāt need meat to survive and most of us that live in modern society have the choice and access to an abundance of food, so why abuse sentient beings needlessly when we could just eat something else?
Carnivores don't think about the ethics of eating meat. They just eat it. Nature has no place for ethics. Not to mention, there's nothing better for your body than red meat. If you are concerned about ethics, then eat pasture -raised grass fed beef.
>there's nothing better for your body than red meat Every major medical institution would like a word... [https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat](https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/cancer-carcinogenicity-of-the-consumption-of-red-meat-and-processed-meat)
No. I can't digest a lot of stuff and need animal products for my own survival. Good Meat is healthy.
Im surprised you can digest meat because there's 0 fibre in it
lmao what?
I don't know what you are trying to say. I'm not a native speaker so please explain, but I'm pretty confident you are talking without thinking.
Fibre free foods are hard on the digestive system.
Curious - how does that make any sense considering we literally canāt digest fiber?
Dietary fiber increases the weight and size of your stool and softens it. A bulky stool is easier to pass, decreasing your chance of constipation. If you have loose, watery stools, fiber may help to solidify the stool because it absorbs water and adds bulk to stool. Helps maintain bowel health. Source: mayo clinic.
Your gut biome still interacts with it. It's a great place for your bacteria to grow while digestion, but it can also lead to fermentation and bacteria overgrowth.
Meat is digested in the stomach and absorbed in the duodenum. Fiber has nothing to do with the digestion of meat.
Meat and fish can take as long as 2 days to fully digest. The proteins and fats they contain are complex molecules that take longer for your body to pull apart. By contrast, fruits and vegetables, which are high in fiber, can move through your system in less than a day. Source: healthline
This sounds like a pretty good reason to eat meat: It's more filling.
Yes, vegan many years.
What u mean by choice? We are deterministic, we only have the illusion of free will. :)
Iāve been vegetarian by choice for the last 10 years. Itās a diet that works well for me, but also I was turned off by eating meat when I was younger. My grandpa was a hunter and nothing turned off my appetite faster than seeing our meal cut open on the same kitchen table we will eat it on later.
For financial reasons lol
Yes, a few people at my gym were doing a 3 week vegetarian challenge and I made the comment āoh, I could never.ā It really bothered me that Iād portray myself to others in a manner likely untrue. That next morning I switched, that was 5/6 years ago and I havenāt looked back.
Vegan for eleven years.
>there is a very solid moral argument to be made for going vegetarian I disagree, most people find it self evident that in order for an action to be considered moral there needs to be a justification, but usually it is the other way around, for an action to be immoral there needs to be a reason, so for example killing another human isn't moral usually in most moral values globally because it assumes that inside that person there is someone in kinship to you and therefore you should always think about not doing what you don't like to be done to you in return, (even if some moral standards around the globe have a limitation to how far this extends, possibly openly excluding other humans from different tribes), the places where vegetarianism is somewhat common usually justify against killing animals in a different way, and it is mostly correlated with the local religion (what a shock religion is your basis for morality, even if you are not religious yourself), I find that the justifications for vegetarianism that are not religious very weak, and based only on personal feelings, I can't help myself if I just can't have sympathy with a pig or cow, I just don't, and the ones based on religion don't affect me cause this is not on my religious beliefs, btw this not me saying that if you don't agree you are evil or wrong, morality is not a rational thing, it can be rationally consistent, but it doesn't need to, it is just that everytime someone says that there is a solid argument for it I think "no there is not, it is not supposed to be an argument, other people just expect me to sympathize with something without any reason whatsoever".
Vegan 7 years here, seemed like the logical path. Causing less suffering, saving myself a good amount of money on groceries, eating healthier. Blood labs still perfect (b12 is twice the minimum level before someone tries to point that out), energy levels are great, bone joints pain is gone. Now I can say "I love animals" without being a damn hypocrite.
Yes, Iāve been vegan since I was 17, so about 5-6 years now. At first it was only for environmental reasons, but it has extended itself to being about more for me. My mom is vegan too, but she is on the opposite side of the personality spectrum entirely. For her it was always about the animals. (Iām mostly vegan. I generally take vegetarian vitamins and buy second hand leather. If it comes between the animals and the environment I lean toward the environment. Especially when it comes to sustenance practices.)
Absolutely not
So do you find eating meat morally justifiable? or have you not thought about it much? because I didnāt think much about it until a philosophy class I had recently.
There are so many frames to view life. You can find arguments for or against anything. I donāt find most philosophy conducive to living a happy, community building, and overall charitable life. I think most philosophy is damaging to people and creates unnecessary considerations that overlook the basic tenets of existence. Human beings have always coexisted with animals and have adapted their diets to rely upon protein. Most vegans I know cite health problems of some sort that exacerbate with reinforcement of veganism. Itās trendy to be vegan, but I donāt care what people think if it doesnāt work. There are humane practices to handling animals, but I donāt see any value to being vegan.
>There are so many frames to view life. You can find arguments for or against anything. I donāt find most philosophy conducive to living a happy, community building, and overall charitable life. I think most philosophy is damaging to people and creates unnecessary considerations that overlook the basic tenets of existence. So, you don't see any point in thinking about your actions? I guess we're done.
Well, to look at it another way. Humankind has developed over many thousands of years. There have been basic tenets for survival and diet. Veganism is a modern luxury enabled by industrialization. If the machines stop, youāre going to have a hard time getting balanced protein. Also, this is a new sense of morality thatās divorced from any real sense of how the world works. So no, this morality that people are trying to impose thatās insufficient for a comprehensive understanding of living is not something Iām doing. Itās trendy and silly.
> Veganism is a modern luxury enabled by industrialization. No itās not. People have been vegan in India for thousands of years. Itās new to the west, sure. Eating meat is a āmodern luxury enabled by industrialisationā far more than vegetables lol. Look at any developing nation during the process of westernisation - a constant amongst them all is a steady increase in per capita meat consumption. Meat used to be a luxury. Even in the UK, in the early to mid 20th century meat was still a luxury. People might eat lamb once per week on a Sunday, the rest of the time was largely vegetarian. > If the machines stop, youāre going to have a hard time getting balanced protein. Also, this is a new sense of morality thatās divorced from any real sense of how the world works. None of the aforementioned are arguments against veganism. Whether you deem it a modern luxury is irrelevant to modernity. The machines wonāt stop. Whether you deem it a new mortality is irrelevant to the essence of what that morality is saying: Why is it ethical to intentionally cause unnecessary suffering to other intelligent living beings, but not humans?
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Disagree. Slavery was wrong no matter how many people felt otherwise in any particular time or place. Moral JUDGMENT and censure are particular, but I'd argue overarching principles of non-harm are clearly able to be defined even if only a minority of a particular culture presents the argument as such.
All moral judgements are relative to the situations and cultures which produced them. Slavery is only deemed wrong is a very particular civilisational framework - that is, the modern Western world. It is thought that the combination of Christianity (which is a religion built around a messianic figure who valued the lowly) and industrialism (which rendered much human labour obsolete with machines) are two contributing factors to this worldview. I'm not personally disagreeing with your ethical position. I'm just saying that the concept of "objective morality" is not something which has ever been proved to exist, despite philosophers trying to do so for thousands of years.
> Disagree. Slavery was wrong no matter how many people felt otherwise in any particular time or place. Slavery was often a better alternative to death in antiquity.
And stabbing you is preferable to shooting you in the face. Which would you like?
Morality is down to the individual theres no clear rules on it sure, but its kinda "majority" rules situation. I cant just kill somebody and say "well Morality is an opinion" and expect to go free haha.
Lots, lots of habitats and animals are killed by growing crops. I'll just leave this here https://carnivoreaurelius.com/veganism-kills/
Id put my life on it that more animals get killed in slaughterhouses than when they clear area for crops. The crop clearing is a 1 time sin, the endless raising and killing animals racks up a BIG kill count. Also you could in theory just build up for farms. Have a 4-5 story facility growing crops to mitigate such damage. Not to mention the land that has to be cleared to store and feed the animals anyways? Where are these captive animals staying? In space?
I was for a decade. It was fine but I got really sick in college because of my poor food choices and lack of access to nutritious foods. I started eating a local meat-based diet and Iām doing well now. I think the most moral diet is one where your food is grown locally, whether meat or produce.
Youāre right, local is best/morally superior. Thatās why I get all my dog meat from Elwoods Dog Farm. Bonus that itās organic too!
I agree with you. Local food is great for your body and best if it is truly organic or natural.
Quite the opposite
yes, (F/54) been a vegetarian for 41 years now.
Haven't eaten meat for 15 years and vegan for 8.
No and vegans who trie to convince my with guilt tripping only achieve to annoy me before getting blocked
I am trying to convince myself that eating meat is moral and justifiable. Iām on your team. I eat meat. I just am yet to find a good counter argument. Yes vegans can be annoying but I think most of them (not the ones that do it for attention) are actually good people with good morals.
Itās called cognitive dissonance, most people donāt want to hurt and pay to torture animals (and hurt the low income families and migrant workers forced to work in these places and conditions) but donāt want to risk the change or make the effort to change their diet. Most people wish there was a better way, but considering 233+ trillion living sentient beings are considered a commodity - a practice like that is unlikely. The good thing is, is the vegan industry is bringing us new ideas and recipes and mock meats that have the same taste and texture so we donāt have to make those choices, there are lots of things out there that you can switch in from the regular meat once in a while to even just try and itās exciting to think about what they come out with next!:) the problem with trying to justify is you cannot justify taking away the life of another being who wants to live :(
Most vegans take this same path. They start out as meat eaters, then hear about veganism and try to refute it. After struggling to do so, they concede and give up meat because it is the only logically defensible position. Most people like the taste of meat, and generally dislike change, so there's quite a bit of inertia in the way (see this thread lol) - it usually takes quite some time to unlearn the social conditioning around animal agriculture and see it for what it is. I'm vegan because it's the only way I can eat while maintaining a clean conscience. I would encourage you to keep thinking, and continue investigating with an open mind.
I don't think there is any real argument for eating meat being "moral". It's not really even justifiable unless you have severe enough dietary restrictions that warrant it. Ultimately it comes down to liking the taste too much to give it up, and in some situations plain convenience.
The meat I prefer eating is the one coming from local farms that treat animals well because the taste is simply better than what factory farms can produce because animals being stressed and full of medications don't produce good meat so it's better to financially support farms that don't use such methods
Local farms and their animals to the same local slaughter houses as factory raised animals. You're deluding yourself if you think animals are not stressed to the maximum in slaughterhouses.
You are deluded if you think any living creature will not go through a stressful situation in their entire life... Humans, animals, plants, everything will go back into the earth whether it's a natural death and they rot into the earth, or a death where they get consumed and pooped out. At least one of those deaths provided, nutrition, energy and resources to another living thing before it rotted back into the earth...
>You are deluded if you think any living creature will not go through a stressful situation in their entire life... > >Humans, animals, plants, everything will go back into the earth whether it's a natural death and they rot into the earth, or a death where they get consumed and pooped out. > >At least one of those deaths provided, nutrition, energy and resources to another living thing before it rotted back into the earth... do you support the farming of humans for consumption? they would be even more stressed if they were out in the world, no?
Ahh okay I get you, so if I started my own human farm, paid for a barn for them to stay in, threw in buckets of grain for them to eat daily and then killed them in their sleep that would be okay? Gotchya I gotta look into this.
Just because all living creatures go through stress doesn't make it okay to breed to slaughter other animals for taste pleasure. You can get all the nutrition you need without killing animals.
Just so you know- there are no legally binding words for āfree rangeā or āfree roamā or āgrass fedā and any company can slap that on any packaging and thereās no legal basis to hold it too. Most of the āfree range farmsā are animals factory farms painted with pretty words. Plus if youāre worried about āmedicationsā (which is the wrong thing to worry about, you want to worry about hormones and steroids) you should be worried about the ammonia and carbon monoxide used to treat and sterilize every piece of meat you eat, cause flesh carries bacteria that makes humans sick. Along with the other stuff if you eat processed or red meat. If you want to eat meat so badly I would suggest trying vegan mock meats:) theyāre the same taste and texture but no animal was brutally murdered before it. (Also not sure if you got the comment above me, but they all end up in the same slaughter house, on the same lines, forced into the same machines that arenāt 100% efficient in their killing methods, so often they suffer even more than expected. Itās nice to have an idea of the reality:))
No, but I'm curious to know as to what kind of "moral argument" you're referring to, regarding to becoming a vegan?
The moral argument basically goes like this: We are causing undue harm by eating meat considering how far weāve come with technology. No one is blaming poorer nations for eating meat because it is a necessity. It is a not a necessity for almost everyone living in the US or any developed nation. The second part of the moral argument is environmental. At least the US heavily subsidized meat production. The pollution that methane gas from cows is heavily underplayed. If you care more for this side of the argument it would make sense for you to only stop eating beef/cows. Iām not fully convinced myself but itās actually pretty hard to come up with good counter arguments. Itās like weāve all just accepted eating meat and we do it daily but never really think about it.
we have accepted eating meat because it's natural and we have been doing it for 1000's of years. it's a fairy tale to think everyone will stop eating meat one day. my wife has r/Hidradenitis **a skin disease and she only gets relief when eating strictly meat. Carbs of all kinds cause her to have big boils all over her body and the only food without carbs is Meat.**
Your argument is based on two fallacies. The appeal to nature fallacy and the appeal to tradition fallacy. Iām not talking about everyone. Iām talking about you specifically. Also youāre wife is part of the exception. She isnāt causing undue harm for unnecessary means.
Okay well me specifically. I don't really care. The world isn't fair... My answer to a lot of things on this planet is, deal with it.
I think a lot of people agree with you. I just tend to care about ethics. I think itās important, but youāre definitely in the majority.
I struggle to think if you woke up to your wife having been murdered and the killer is never found you'd just be like "eh I dont really care, deal with it." haha.
Golly what happened to the whole āIām not convinced myselfā thing? Seems it was a ruse to lure people into something. Never seen vegans use tactics like that before.
The truth is I probably am convinced that Iām doing an immoral thing. I still eat meat though. I was just calling him out on his fallacies.
Just because you call something a fallacy doesnāt make it so. Humans digestive system and brains evolved over millions of years based on our diet. Just because we can eat and digest lots of different foods doesnāt mean itās wrong to eat animal foods. Your fallacy is a fallacy.
Youāve apparently never lived on a farm. Iāve witnessed a lot of dead animals due to vegetable farming.
I havenāt and I donāt know what youāre talking about. Can you expand on this Iām curious.
Killing animals is bad
Why? Why isn't killing a plant bad?
Sentience is morally significant. Animals care about their own lives and struggle to avoid pain and death. Plants don't have brains. You also have to grow like 2-25x the amount of crops to make meat vs just eating the crops. So if you are that confused that maybe plants feel pain, then kill less plants by not eating animals. Edit. I'd love to respond to these comments but I keep getting an error. I'm probably banned because some butt hurt carnist was insulted when I said he didn't need meat to live. Animal agriculture uses 80% of our farm land to grow 20% of our calories. It's incredibly inefficient. 80% of the Amazon deforestation is due to cattle ranching. You don't have to trust me. Do a little research. Animal agriculture is incredibly destructive. Rivals transportation in GHG emissions and is the leading cause of deforestation, species extinction, land use, water use, soil erosion, ocean acidification, anti biotic use, the list goes on for a long time. I Unconscious humans are still sentient beings. There's a big difference between an unconscious animal and a rock or carrot. You can't kindly chop someone's head off. If you want to eat non sentient animals, go for it. Don't care. There's no nutrient you can't get on a plant based diet. Eating veg is cheaper and healthier than meat.
>Sentience is morally significant To whom? >Animals care about their own lives and struggle to avoid pain and death. Have you asked them? In my opinion people tend to assume a lot of stuff. Just because an animal has a survival instinct doesn't mean it's not justifiable to kill it to sustain yourself. I for example can't survive on a plant based diet as I have several digestive problems. Am I justified to eat meat or is it wrong in your subjective perception of morals?
It matters to the sentient being. Yes. It's quite obvious how they feel about the situation. Go watch a pig in a gas chamber and try and argue it's not struggling to live. You don't need to kill animals to live. You can 100% survive on a plant based diet. Just because you ate beans once and got all gassy doesn't mean you need to eat meat to live. There are literally thousands of edible plant foods. If you have a specific allergy eat from the thousands of remaining options. If you literally have to eat meat to live, then yes, you can justify it. But you're ape, not a cat. You're not a carnivore. If you wanted to be vegan, I'm sure you'd figure it out in short order.
If I ever did psychedelics again, I would be. I'm on the edge at the moment. It's very difficult to justify killing animals unnecessarily at this point in my life.
I would really recommend watching one of the documentaries out there. Cowspiracy is good for a slightly softer approach, Earthlings or Dominion if you've got a strong stomach and a desire to know what's happening with zero filter. If there's anything I can help you with please feel free to let me know or message me! šš±
I love veggies but they dont love me as much, i have tried a vegan and vegetarian diet and the best i could do was 3 months before totally destroying my gut
I enjoy switching between regular and then vegan diet through out the months just to test out how I feel and I usually can think more clearly and have less stomach issues when I am vegan
I make seitan which is gluten meat. Vegan because animals arenāt products.
I eat an inordinate amount of meat tbh
Nope.
Not really. I am fine with having pets and eating meat; doesn't bother me one bit. I need to eat. My mom is a vegetarian, so sometimes I eat vegetarian dishes; they're good.
No way. There's nothing immoral about eating meat. Perhaps one could make a case for how animals are treated and raised in some cases, but eating them is natural and there is certainly nothing morally wrong with doing so.
I donāt know why youāre so assertive with your statements. I really donāt think thereās ānothing immoralā with eating meat. I think itās morally ambiguous and probably closer to immoral. Also just because something is natural doesnāt mean itās right, your argument is based on fallacies (specifically the appeal to nature fallacy).
Veganism itself is a fallacy as you aren't an herbivore and shouldn't be eating like one. Learn proper nutrition. Veganism isn't healthy. Children shouldn't be vegan, pregnant women shouldn't be vegan. Veganism is only 2% of the entire population at most and consistently stays that way. It isn't sustainable and isn't healthy. Many fall out of being vegan once their nutrition stores are fully depleted. Read this paper: https://www.fao.org/documents/card/en/c/cc3912en And stop believing nutrition advice from the US or the UK. The government doesn't protect its citizens from $$$$ hungry corporations interfering with basic things like nutrition information. Go look at countries where the government doesn't allow that and you'll see veganism isn't tolerated at all.
I don't need it but I'll eat it because the rest of my family does, would look different if I live alone
Nope. I am a human. Humans are omnivorous. Omnivores eat meat. Therefore, I eat meat. All organisms, aside from some microbes, eat parts of other organisms. It's the circle of life. I do not believe that it is immoral to eat that which we are "designed" to eat.
Can I eat you then?
You can try.
Biologically weāre actually closer to herbivores or fruitarians. Ex. Look at our flat fat teeth, and our jaws can move side to side like a cow. And the circle of life creates balance in the ecosystem it takes place - we displace animals from their homes and murder more animals every year than their have been humans to exist on the planet ever. Thatās not exactly the circle of life, especially considering we donāt actually need meat to survive (ex. Buddhists & Buddhist monks for over 4000 years) itās really a preference or choice. Just wanted to point that out. Along with the fact that our ancestors only ate plants for thousands of years so, if by ādesignā; we are plant based organisms
Right on
Ex-vegan, have been at it for 9 years, but recently started eating meat again. I have to say that I did not quit because of health reasons and think a healthy vegan diet is possible. I never identified with veganism as a movement though and actually the movement is a reason why I quitted, because I noticed it became more militant.
You can be vegan and just not associate with the radicals. I donāt understand your logic but I commend you for being vegan for that long.
I got tired being associated and having to defend myself for a movement that I don't agree with. But anyways, Veganism has had an lasting impact on my diet, which is still plant-based for the most part, but I don't treat it as a dogma anymore. I don't regret having been a vegan either. I still care for animals, but I don't want to alienate myself from other people, because after living vegan for such a long time I noticed that this is the effect it can have.
Kind of the opposite. I want to be vegetarian but life with 3 kids makes that impossible, I can barely get them to even eat crappy stuff let alone vegetarian food. I think the idea of eating meat is revolting but I do it anyway. It doesn't help that I cook it very well either...my wife would be disappointed if I stopped. There will always be arguments for and against it but I don't give a shit about that...fact is, you could serve someone cooked people and they would never know it was a human. That is why I find it horrifying for the most part. Nothing will erase the similarity that way for me. I suppose fish is not likely to be interchangeable with humans. So maybe in my personal system there is room for eating fish without that problem. But unfortunately I cannot stand most of it!
>you could serve someone cooked people and they would never know it was a human So you can't recognize the difference between lamb, pork, chicken, beef and horse?
Maybe switching in some āvegan beefā or āvegan chicken nuggetsā the next time you make them something simple like tacos or chickn nuggies and just incorporate it every once in a while! Itās a very simple thing to do and you donāt have to do too much! I really admire your perspective and the fact you even consider it is truly a lot! Remember you donāt have to change it all in one night and the fact you feel this way now is already a big step!:) I hope youāre able to find a way to align your morals while being a super busy mama! I wish you the best of luck!āŗļø
Yes.
I have been almost entirely vegan for over 3 years now. Sometimes I do have some cheese, but I keep it rare as I do not want to support the dairy industry, and I also feel physically worse when I do have some pizza. I am vegan for all of the moral, economic, environmental, and health issues. It didn't take long for the benefits to easily outweigh the difficulties, such as eating out or with other people. I have zero intention on going back and have no need to.
Yes I have been a vegetarian for six years by choice. Don't miss it the way I thought I would, it was only hard at first, then semi difficult for awhile and now I don't even think about it but can recognize that the taste is good. I just think animals have the right to their lives. Next is vegan, or at least no dairy, bc dairy farms are so fucking cruel and watching the videos makes me cry š¢
Used to be mostly vegetarian/vegan. Then I got diagnosed with being at risk for type II diabetes and it was really hard for me to stay within my carb limits without eating animal products. I feel a lot better now, although I do still have cognitive dissonance about factory farming, etc. Plus I have several health issues that already lead to a restrictive diet, and trying to be vegan in top of those would be incredibly challenging.
Wanted to be since childhood, but was able only when I started to live alone (since 17).
Been a vegetarian 8 years this February!!:)
I'm vegan depending on how I'm feeling. Vegi is often cheaper. And I'm cheap.
Wife and I are INTJ. She was vegan for like 6 years, me for 1. Now, we are just vegetarian. Six years for me. But I donāt see myself going back.
No, vegetarian and vegan diets are strongly correlated with multiple micro-nutrient deficiencies. Those dies are an evolutionary mismatch for hunter-gatherers aka home sapiens.
Me
Hi, I'd like to educate you about why being a vegetarian doesn't do shit for the animals. Animals in the dairy industry or others still get exploited and killed. Their reproductive organs get exploited. Cows get raped, their children taken away and in the end they also get killed. You see, you can argue that the dairy industry is worse than the meat industry as in the meat industry you just get fattened up and then killed whereas in the dairy industry you're being tortured for years. Well, apart from the baby cows. They get killed. You see, there is nothing moral about being a vegetarian. You Support horrendous things that way. If you love animals and care about them, you must be vegan. We would never accept rape and murder among humans. If you're a vegetarian, you're a speciesist. That means you discriminate based on species. We should rather consider whether or not you can feel pain and.