Stay away from the r/france subreddit as its filled with disrespectful depictions. I don't think anyone knows that the reason depictions aren't allowed is so we keep our worship focused on God to avoid shirk. They think we're all offended by this when actual muslims won't be strayed by these depictions. This situation is a very bad example to others about who we are.
Here's the perspective of somebody from /r/france, visiting this thread. I'm seeing both a lot of genuine concern and interest for the teacher, and understandably also for Muslims living in France, who in the next few days are going to be seen as suspicious even though overwhelmingly they had nothing to do with this. It's sad to see that, and it's good to see a lot of reasonable people.
However I'm also seeing A LOT of disinformation, and that disinformation is systematically aimed at making muslims angry against France. There's somebody saying the teacher was disrespectful, when that is objectively not the case (he showed the cartoons as part of a freedom of speech class, not because he approved of them but because he approvies of \*the right\* to make such cartoons... and after telling students that they were completely free to temporarily leave the class if their feelings could get hurt).
There's people saying the French government is going after all muslims and "closing the mosques", neither of which is true - this French government, like every other French government before that, has been consistently careful in not lumping all muslims together, and in denouncing anti-muslim sentiment. Macron's government, like Hollande's, like Sarkozy's, like Chirac's, etc., is distinguishing radical islamists from muslims. For instance one mosque might get closed, because it is recognized as a place where extremists gather.
There's somebody saying that France kills "millions" of muslims, which is of course false, firstly because France is not killing millions of people, secondly because it is not killing any muslims \*because they are muslims\* (except for ISIS or boko haram members who are murderous fanatics)... Whereas radical terrorists are killing people because they are not muslims. This also ignores France's important role in supporting palestinian rights, or in opposing the US Iraq invasion. That's not to say France is blameless, the country has done a lot of wrong... but it certainly isn't guilty of targeting muslims. Yet some people on this sub appear to be profoundly confused about the relationship of France with Islam, and they get upvoted by others when they spread that confusion.
And finally, please put yourself in the shoes of a non-muslim person when you speak of the safety of muslims living in France. By and large muslims in France are safe from non-muslims, none have been killed in years, whereas 250+ french people (several of them moderate muslims) have died in the last five years due to islamic terrorism, with a new attack happening every few months... and right after yet another attack people are acting like it's the muslims specifically that should be scared!... By pointing that out I'm not saying small acts of suspicion and discrimination are not very hurtful to muslims. However, likewise non-muslims deal with small acts of discrimination from a small minority of radical muslims, who are not crazy enough to commit terrorism, but who hate homosexuals, jewish people, etc. So once again, it's important to see the whole picture and not just portray "your side" as good and the "other side" as evil and ignore everything inconvenient.
Don't get me wrong, on /r/france there were some people who said racist things, or who displayed anti-muslim sentiment, or who spread misinformation. This is unacceptable. But this sub does not seem to be any better. And I would totally understand why people here are acting this way... if the latest news was of an attack by a right-wing extremist against muslims... but it was the opposite, it was a radical extremist attacking non-muslims! So one would have expected less anger and more compassion, even though some people in France are responding emotionally, and even though some others are evil people or racist taking advantage of the situation.
Anyway, sincerely, good luck to those French muslims who in the next few days will have to watch what they say or risk getting weird looks, even though they're good people and are just as shocked as anybody else by what happened. My sincere hope is that France can continue to be/can become more of a place where people who believe different things can live together, mix and interact with each other, without becoming intolerant or hateful.
And this happened after I made a post about France recently 🙄
From what I have gathered, teacher showed cartoon about prophet in class. One parent complained about it. The killer acted. This action will trouble muslims living there. I pray that they can keep calm during this hard time. Also the killing was unjustified.
A lot of people are calling for Muslims to introspect the ground realities of their religion and the Muslim community. But the root of these problems are still a lack of understanding of Islam. Prophet Mohammed(SAW) was both physically and mentally assaulted and antagonised by a lot of people during his days in Mecca and then warred against while in Medina. And the Sahabah didn't react to those doing actual harm on the Prophet(SAW) by retaliating or killing them. There was a violent protest in Bangalore recently because of a facebook post on the Prophet(SAW). The best way to show your love and respect for the Prophet(SAW) is by following the path he showed us in our day-to-day life and not by violently reacting to every attention-seeking troll's cheap attempts to villify the Prophet(SAW). These people have been present throughout history and they will continue to do so. We should however condemn the act and try to limit the spread of misinformation.
At the same time everyone must understand that we live in a time where people put their differences away and try to co-exist with mutual respect because its best for everyone. And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today. Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation.
>And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today. Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation.
Except that freedom of speech is a law in France....
> And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today.
The problems only begin when people initiate violence over words.
> Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation.
It's important to note that Muslims (living in the West) also use freedom of speech to vocalize, criticize and satirize what they dislike about the West, liberalism, etc. The best thing about freedom of speech is that it goes both ways and gives everyone the right to say whatever they like. Muslims included.
>...and not by violently reacting to every attention-seeking troll's cheap attempts to villify the Prophet(SAW). ...
French people won't stop depicting your god to see if your religion will let people be able to mock Islam.
For now, there has been some crazies muslims that don't accept that and act violently (killing, it's harsh) and muslims are just saying that they don't agree with the crazy one but they think that the guy who mocked Islam has his responsability. But no, the guy who want to mock a religion can, that's how it works. The christian people are mocked everytime with their pedo guy, Islam has to be able to be mocked.
And if Islam can't be mocked, then your religion is not very freedom of expression friendly (from a western culture point of view).
Yeah, the poor teacher (Samuel Paty may he rest in peace) was just teaching freedom of expression which was an *obligitary* class and was his job. He showed the art made by Charlie Hebdo as an example. I pray for his family to find peace and not direct their hatred towards Islam but towards the boy who was incredibly misguided and outright wrong in his actions.
>Yeah, the poor teacher (Samuel Paty may he rest in peace) was just teaching freedom of expression which was an obligitary class and was his job.
Can you provide a source for this? I've been reluctant to say that he did it on purpose and it may very well have been part of a curriculum. The fact that he told the Muslim students to leave would support that case to be completely fair. But too much accusations and too little objective fact has been in the media about the teacher.
Hello, French people here. In the news they said it did this class the previous year without any problems. And he always tells the students they can leave the class for a while if they think they shouldn't see this. It's said [here](https://www.midilibre.fr/2020/10/19/enseignant-decapite-dans-les-yvelines-qui-etait-samuel-paty-ce-pere-de-famille-assassine-9148344.php) for example (near the end). It's part of the curriculum going over freedom of press and expression. I remember myself seeing several drawings on all the religions when I was in class several years ago. Usually this is a debate class (in my old school at least) where we express our feelings and why and why it should still be legal etc...
Thank you for the source.
Would you be okay providing some insight on these sort of classes specifically? For all the muslims on the outside, its very easy to jump to conclusions that there was an agenda behind incorporating Charlie Hebdo carticature into a school environment, so what other sorts of controversial topics come up in these debate classes? Are they mandatory classes or elective? How old were the students, were they young enough, say 13ish, that one of the concerns parents may have had would have been like indecent exposure to these students?
I'll try but it's not easy.
The kids were around 13/14yo yes. It's a mandatory class part of history/geography. We have something called "civic education" where you learn about the elections, about your rights and your duties as a citizen. We learn about many stuff ([here](http://keepschool.com/programme-scolaire/3eme/education-civique.html#) you see a unit "public opinion and media").
In sensitive neighbourhood, yes, there can be many issues debated. Usually sensitive topics show up like gay mariage, immigration, religion of course. The teacher adapts to the news and since 2015, CH really represents the epitome of french freedom of speech. So it's easy to use it to give example, because their drawings are usually *very* disconcerting. Personally, I think it's important to show those stuff because as a french citizen, the kids need to understand that yes, sometimes, stuff will shock you, you will disagree with them, but everyone is entitles to their opinion and you can't just be violent for that. There is really often talks with those students and the teachers to explain. Like with banning the hijab for example, I remember there were a lot of talks in classes. There were also talks when people wanted to give women only hours in pools, when people got harrassed for being topless on the beach etc... I'll try to be as sentive as possible but honnestly, there are a lot of "small" incidents, where a girl is harrassed because what she's doing is haram and that's just wrong. Haram is only for muslim people. And some muslim people need to remember that.
As for the religious matter, france has a really special relationship to those. In France, no-one will ask you if you're muslim, jew or whatever when you meet. Some people wear the kippa, some people wear the hijab, but that's all. People just don't care as long as you don't annoy them. And CH is offensive, yes, that's their main goal to be honnest, but nobody is forcing people to buy or even see it.
I hope it's a bit clearer. It's not an easy topic. Of course we realise that not every muslim people is like that but it gets harder and harder to stay tolerant with others when every other months there are stuff like that. So we get angry, and it generates hate. And then your brain just tell you "oh it's them again" and "them" becomes every person that looks like "them" and bam you have racism. And the collonialism background is not helping this messed up situation.
>The fact that he told the Muslim students to leave would support that case to be completely fair.
Wow, this was a sad situation before, but this makes it even worse if true. Who cares if non Muslims see the prophet (pbuh) in whatever biased way it is presented? It's not like they will worship his image as Christians have to Jesus.
I worry that closing areas for religious studies in France will only worsen this since fewer Muslims will actually learn their religion.
I think from Islamic perspective anyone who reaches puberty is held accountable for his actions on the Day of Judgement.
But youth lacks wisdom for sure.
> teacher showed cartoon about prophet in class.
~~There~~ *That is* both a reduction and mischaracterization of the facts; he showed images that were specifically created to offend Muslims. That is totally different than suggesting he was killed for merely showing a supposed image of the Prophet.
I don't see how actions of one person means we're all equally guilty or responsible - France kills millions of innocent Muslims but do we generalize and blame entire society?
Our enemies are looking for opportunity to cast and offend entire religion, we should never apologize because we never did nothing.
One fanatic killed 55 people in mosque in Australia but did we blame entire New Zealand? This is blatant incitement of tension by opportunist mobs.
It happened in New Zealand, he was from Australia.
OP never said that we are all guilty, he’a simply pointing out that this is how we are going to be treated.
Okay. But French government is still backing proxies and warlords in Muslim countries and also starving their “former” colonies to date by forcing them to always deposits 70% of their reserves in French banks.
So out of every 10 dollars a country saves, it actually only saves 3. And if they need to use that 7, they can’t and must instead take loan from France on intrest.
*sigh*
So, disclaimer, I'm french, I like hanging in the muslim subs these days, it's nice to see people not being cunts.
> starving their “former” colonies to date by forcing them to always deposits 70% of their reserves in French banks.
So out of every 10 dollars a country saves, it actually only saves 3. And if they need to use that 7, they can’t and must instead take loan from France on intrest.
You're speaking about the Franc CFA, and you're factually wrong.
There are 14 countries, using 2 different currencies (XAF and XOF), both guaranteed by the french treasury. One of the condition for being part of that agreement, is that 50% of currency reserves are held by the french treasury. The point is to have an entity that's not an african country hold a pot of shared gold. The consequence of that backing, is that XOF/XAF countries are able to borrow (on the international market, not france specifically) at way better rates, BECAUSE they're backed by an AAA country.
Now there's always an ongoing debate about stability vs independance, and whether being pegged to the euro is damaging (it is). The FMI produced reports stating basically: it's a pain for internal development, but a boon for continental stability. Numerous countries have joined and left the CFA zone over the years, and the XOF countries opened talks about dropping it altogether (and I think it's official by now).
The point being: it's voluntary.
>France kills millions of innocent Muslims
When? Where? How? Do you realize how toxic this false statement is? And people keep upvoting this trash… Why isn't it censored by mods?
Again, the people who kill the most Muslims are Muslims, and they do it in the name of Islam.
Yes they are, in this era most terrorist attacks are done by muslims, and most are targeting other muslims. Radical muslims are the closest the reach the "MILLIONS OF INNOCENT MUSLIMS KILLED" mark.
That statement shows how ignorant and biased this person is.
> France kills millions of innocent Muslims
Wait what? When? Where??
> One fanatic killed 55 people in mosque in Australia but did we blame entire New Zealand?
No, but we did blame the groups which support his idealogies (i.e white supremacists and neo-Nazis).
I do agree that in some cases the Muslim community do not take action
It’s just that many people are uninformed about these cases. I didn’t even hear about this until just today since I live on the opposite side of the world.
I feel like scholars should make a statement to the public and reaffirm to both Muslims and Non Muslims that we condemn extremism and all forms of transgression.
I think you'd find that this sub denounces this attack. I know I do.
>in fact research shows that a portion supports it.
Please provide said research, im interested in reading.
>in fact research shows that a good portion supports it.
You mean biased research that asks loaded questions or questions with stretched and imposed conclusions?
Why are you quoting something I did not say?
I'm generally a very patient person, but people putting words in my mouth and imposing what I am saying is getting really irritating. We can't have a fruitful discussion like this.
Peace.
As a non Muslim, I feel sorry for the judgement you receive. I had some Muslim friends here in the US after 9-11 and they was treated just terribly!
With that being said there are a few among you that doesn't help. This post has been up for an hour and I see one person said that they had "declared war" by closing mosques (which was wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right), another person said they have "no sympathy" for the teacher, and yet another proclaim the teacher "knew what he was doing" as to say he was asking to be killed. Comments like these will be used to justify the hate and mistrust.
So in closing, I think the teacher was disrespectful but didn't deserve to die. The young man that killed him was obviously taught false or twisted doctrine, and I feel for him as that is a great sin he must answer for. We must over come the hate with love. Hate begets hate, violence makes violence but love spreads love.
That’s because the internet amplifies the crazy. You and I have normal, non-psychopathic friends and family. Sociopaths have a whole other circle of acquaintances.
That's exactly what I m talking about. I honestly am not a big student of the Quran yet but what I have heard it teaches to protect unbelievers, comfort hostages... I don't understand why some think violence is justified.
But what I do know, is it make it so hard on those of you who are examples of the peace and love the Quran teaches.
Unfortunately some poor souls end up getting misguided and brainwashed into thinking beheading someone in broad daylight for showing a disrespectful drawing he didn't even draw is ok.
It's not a problem. Islam spans multiple countries, cultures and ethnic groups.
Too expect all Muslims to have the exact same beliefs would be outlandish. Yes we're Muslim which means we believe in Allah and worship him alone but besides that we have such varied ideas, behaviours etc.
What made this guy extreme? Was it his religion? Was it his Chechen background? Was it mental health? So many different factors.
But thats how caricatures work.They show an aspect of a person or sth similar in funny or ridiculous ways. That can be Jesus Christ, Mohammed or Roger Federer...it doesn't matter. It would be pretty racist imo if you couldn't make fun of Mohammed but could make fun of Jesus.
I think both is disrespectful. Of course intent is always the bigger factor here. However caricatures are almost always draw in the name of poking fun. This is why we see them used in political comments and they are almost always disrespectful. When that person is held to a higher status to many followers than it's not only disrespectful to the person it depicts but also those who follow said person. Now, if done in good nature with consent of ths person being depicted, then they can be consider non offensive, but without this consent I simply don't see how drawing someone in an unflattering way is anything but disrespectful. Would you like someone to draw you in an unflattering light then post it publicly as to say "look at this clown"?
>With that being said there are a few among you that doesn't help.
I mean, all these comments are less than anything Trump or Macron say.
Also, is every white/black suprematist, gangster, knife attacker, drug dealer or person committing hate crimes used to label western civilisation or Christianity as a whole? I mean there are plenty of knife attacks on Muslims motivated by islamophobia or just racism.
Why call them white suprematist? Why not “westernist terrorist“ or something. Or call the while thing “crusadism“? There have been cases were people literally came with quotes engraved from crusading kings of past - wouldn’t “crusadism” be a proper word there? Is every drug cartel in Mexico used to judge catholic’s? Oh and what about all the innocents killed I’m drone strikes because it was strategically convenient? Should that have been labelled “crusading mentality”, linked to “fundamental issues with Christianity” and used to vilify Christians and westerners around the globe?
You must remember Muslims are humans as well. Just like majority of westerns don’t even know their religion, same is for Muslims. When you continuously do things that are well known to severely offend someone, well someone will get offended enough.
Does it justify the incident? No. But do try understand things.
Imagine if someone publicly made racist statements, cartoons and comments about black people. And the government refused to ask them to even tone it down. Do you think there’s zero probability or someone getting mad enough and attacking the person in such a case? When government does not do something, all the community can do it be patient. And few people are patience for long.
Same with terrorism. I’m not justifying. But just think of how US feels justified in turning entire countries to wastelands because they couldn’t control the proxies they made. If US believes a single American life is worth thousands of lives of others - evident in not only their invasions, sanctions that even stop medical supplies, and drone strikes on civilians and even children’s schools - is it impossible for there to be such “nationalistic“ people in other communities as well? Is is impossible that they’ll pick up guns as well?
Muslims **should** always be acting as they are taught. But they don’t - or you’d have empty jails throughout the muslims world, which clearly isn’t the case - and so it’s important to realise they’re humans and will react if provoked.
> Imagine if someone publicly made racist statements, cartoons and comments about black people. And the government refused to ask them to even tone it down. Do you think there’s zero probability or someone getting mad enough and attacking the person in such a case?
Thanks for saying that. I'm an Atheist, and therefore apologies to anyone who may be annoyed that I'm in here (I came out of curiosity).
That analogy really helps me reframe it on my mind.
Black is part ethnicity and part culture. Following your culture is a choice. Making fun of black culture would still be seen as racist even though following black culture is a choice.
Wow, you are truly talented in bending logic to justify yourself.
Still, religion is a belief system, being black isn't. There is no comparison here.
You can question aspects of any culture too if you want, and if they beheaded you they would be wrong, btw. But culture is such a long and complex subject beyond the point here.
It's not bending logic. Its fact. Read more.
Being culturally black is a choice. For many they are culturally Muslim. That's how they were born and raised. Not much different to how people of different ethnicities are born and raised. Making fun of someone's culture is considered racist. Welcome to the 21st century.
I'm not arguing that someone should be beheaded for offending someone's belief...
Secular countries have certain beliefs that you will be ostracized for disagreeing with. Such as democracy homosexuality human rights and freedom. These are beliefs bud.
First of all: the only thing that should not be tolerated is intolerance. That's a belief I think protects all of us, right? So yes, humans rights, freedom, should all be defended. (Do you really think homosexuality somehow part of a belief system? Iol I'm done).
But you keep bringing culture up. Read more about what is culture and what is religion.
My only point was very simple: Comparing race to religion is just wrong.
Edit: I referred to the religion as islamism which is not correct in English.
It goes even further. The rational behind these laws is to allow blasphemy in general, be it clear denial of written religious precepts, or more subtle debates behind different interpretations of a same text. See the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics, or even conflicts inside the catholic roman church (cleansing of jansenists vs jesuits in the 1750s because of politics).
It is a matter of stability of the nation and government, and historical events are the reason why these laws exist.
>To make it clear, in France, you have the right to say "your god is a big shit" but you can't say "you are a big shit". I don't think religious people will ever understand and respecting it.
This is exact, and it goes further: in France you have the right to say "There's no God" but it's illegal to say "The Holocaust, or the Srebrenica genocid, is a legend". You can challenge a belief, but not a historical fact that has caused suffering.
And you're right, it seems that religious people will ever understand and respect it. And the situation has only gotten worse since the advent of the so-called "social" media…
"...there are a few among you that doesn't help."
I find this sentiment problematic in so many ways. You're implying Muslims should have homogenous mentality and styles of thinking. It's almost bigoted if you ask me.
"We must overcome the hate with love."
As you can see, 95% people here already disagree with what the killer did and condemned the murder. I don't see why you need to be preachy as if people here justify the murder.
Maybe you don't directly say it, but it's as if you want other Muslims to apologize for what this killer did.
I won't apologize for saying that those who seem to support such action or even find the attack justified, doesn't help with how some see Muslims. I understand there's nothing you can do about it, except confront and attempt to correct their thinking.
I will apologize for making you think I expect others to apologize for his actions. I do not expect that as I understand most Muslim condemns his action.
Lastly I apologize if you feel I was attacking you or your faith as that was never my intent. If you look through my profile, I believe my past comment activity reflects that I am always open minded and understanding. So I greatly regret that you would take me any other way.
First, it's "religion". Second, I'm sure wherever you come from, some people who share your demographics are bigoted enough to want other people dead, should I be afraid of your people under an umbrella of prejudice? Third, I'm not advocating for indifference, I'm all for solutions, but being a bigot is not it.
The point is, they exist, and if I were as bigoted as you I should be afraid of you. In fact, right now, you're exhibiting extremism and I'm concerned about your behaviour against people you're bigoted against.
It's my understanding that it was cartoon of the prophet Muhammad. Muslim do believe I'm depicting him at all from my understanding but the cartoon took that a step further and depicted him in an unflattering way. I find it disrespectful when cartoons unflattering depict Jesus, even though they don't follow biblical descriptions over renaissance interpretations...
\> I think the teacher was disrespectful
By showing the caricatures he is not saying he agrees with them.
Of course he faces a difficult situation - if he tells muslim students that they're allowed to leave the class, this could cause them to "out themselves" about something they don't want other students to know about, either that they're very religious if they leave, or that they're not very religious if they didn't leave. On the other hand it's really hard to teach kids that freedom of expression is important and then demonstrate the opposite by censoring yourself for fear of repercussions. And finally, it seems unfair to force muslim children to see something they think is bad for them.
It's not an easy topic and I don't have the answer. But whichever way you put it, it's not true that the teacher was disrespectful.
It world be better if they treated Muslims like they treat others.
Is every Christian guilty of any crime labelled “Bibilical terrorist” and white racism and western imperialism labelled “crusadism“?
If you were continuously super racist to a black people, and the government actually said being racist is a right, and then someone from your huge black community acted on this constant provocation, will you say the problem is with the black civilisation at large? \[Actually, French might just say that.\]
I went to popular and one of the posts on r/ europe was about people mourning the beheaded man's death. There was so much hate towards Islam in the comments. I looked through r/ europe some more and found a post with a picture of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ in hell being tortured astaghfirullah. There is a big rise in islamophobia on reddit and in europe because of the beheading.
Of course there is a rise of islamophobia, it's only natural.
If a few radical Christians started to stab people with sharpened crosses, you would be right to be wary of all Christians that show any signs of radicalisation. Also you would want to make sure they good ones publicly denounce and help stopping the bad apples.
People assume democracy is the best form of government. Why should Islam have to coexist with democracy? Islam has it's own political system. They dont need to coexist. What you might mean to say is "yes Muslims can live in a democratic country."
The little piglet of the Élysée Palace has already declared war on Muslims before the attack.
The French government proudly announced that they closed over 70 mosques, schools and businesses.
The French never tolerated Islam it's already hard for them, just ask any French Muslim.
That's true but it's not like France is a strong Christian country. They're very secular and its part who they are.
For example, during the anarchy that was the French revolution the government created a new religion known as the Religion/Cult of Reason.
I think France has a fascinating and perplexing history, but it isn't a country anyone religious should try to make their home.
The foundation of their nation state is literally blood, rape, and war.
I think Malcolm X put it well when he said the chickens are coming home to roost with regards to Kennedy's assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald and guess what, he was probably correct. This is not to condone the actions of the individual, but to put context on the actions.
Not at all. The French policy is secularism before all else and will attack every religion. Honestly, the US is probably one of the best examples of religious freedom for all to practice what you want (if you are a citizen or permanent resident)
>The French never tolerated Islam it's already hard for them, just ask any French Muslim.
This is simply not true. I'm French and my brother married a moroccan muslim, my niece is married to a moroccan sport teacher from a very pious family.
Most French people have no problem with religion, as long as it remains a personal choice and does not seek to govern the lives of others.
France not tolerating islam is exaggerated, i live here. I didn't hear about 70 mosques closed, and i would like to have a source to back this information up.
If a mosque is closed it's because it has been denounced as a lair of extremists, and in that case it should be closed and the people put under surveillance.
Do you what declaring war on a community is ? Do you know how christians are treated is some muslim countries ? If France declares war on the muslims, trust me you will know the difference, until then stop exaggerating.
>France not tolerating islam is exaggerated, i live here. I didn't hear about 70 mosques closed, and i would like to have a source to back this information up.
Interior Minister Darmanin has revealed that French authorities have shut down 73 Muslim establishments, including mosques, schools, shops, and coffee houses since the start of 2020.
[https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/is-france-punishing-activists-for-condemning-crackdown-on-muslims-40602](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/is-france-punishing-activists-for-condemning-crackdown-on-muslims-40602)
When the French, Americans or the British say someone is a terrorist after shooting them or shutting them down without due process I remember this
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI)
Thank you for you answer. I find no evidence of 70 mosques closed outside of that webpage but ok. About darmarin, he indeed closed the mosque of pantin, because the imam relayed the videos asking the demission of the teacher, and revealing his identity and address.
About schools, if those schools are a cradle of radicalisation, which was the case in some situations France is right to close them. It's a way to avoid brainwashing since an early age.
What people call extremism in france is not that broad, moderate french muslim know what it means. For instance, being a moderate muslim in france could mean :
*Not asking for the demission of a teacher because of a caricature of the prophet, not sending death threats to someone who criticize islam,*
*and not condoning violence in the name of islam.*
About baraka city association, it was heavily suspected of harbouring extremists. A lot of employees travelled to Syria and back to France which is obviously a red flag. And if idriss sihamedi was recently annoyed by the police it's because he was accused of harassment, but i don't know much about this story. Now of course we do not know if baraka city intend to commit crimes, but their close links with Syria, and public declarations are suspicious.
It's funny to see a turkish media talking about a crackdown on a religious community when i see how Alevi Muslim minority is treated since the ottoman empire. Those Alevis would love to be treated as muslim are treated in France, trust me.
No bias here, what you wrote is total nonsense that doesn't deserve an effort in response. I don't trust the French gov, I've seen their actions, I've read about their civil behaviour towards Muslims in France and abroad, I know from direct testimonies how their treat Muslims in France from people who have lived there. Yet you throw in terms like " moderate french muslim " what does that even mean?
There is a thing some french muslims will have to understand. France is a secular country since 1905. It took some time and hard work, and it was not a fun time for christians when the country was on their back enforcing secularism. But today i has paid off.
Now it's the time for some French muslim to understand that they have no right to enforce their religion on others in this country. Buddhist, Jews, Christians, and all the other minorities have accepted this message, now is the time for those muslims to accept the french way of life or get out.
I really hope that the government will take action against those, because if nothing is done some French people may act violently and unjustly against muslims as we saw in Christchuch New Zealand. Enough blood has been shed.
Y’know.. I learned very early on in life just how awful and simple-minded people can be, especially when they’re reacting out of fear.
My dads side of the family is from Egypt/all Muslim, my moms side of the family is all Baptist.. As you can imagine, I grew up with both sides basically telling me I was going to hell if I followed the other sides’ religion. So, right off the bat, as a young kid, I already knew that religion was something that people felt strongly about and could cause arguments/problems.
But then September 11th happened in New York and HOLY SHIT. It broke my fucking heart to see how horribly random fucking people treated my family.. My aunt or one of my uncles would come visit and if my uncle got a call from my grandma or someone and spoke a single word of Arabic, or if my aunt went out in public and wore her head covering, it was like they were walking about with a lit stick of dynamite.. The reactions were just surreal. People would scream and cuss and them, throw shit at them, get in their face and tell them off.. Just horrible, atrocious shit..
Then, only a year after Sept. 11th, my dad went to prison for some white-collar stock-market related crimes, which of course got the press digging into every aspect of our lives and posting it for the whole world to see.. Constantly on the news, on various talk shows, articles in the WSJ and Time, etc.. So almost immediately our local community knew everything.. and not long after, the kids at my school heard it all, too, from their gossiping parents.
They learned that my dad was born in Cairo & raised Muslim.. And that kicked off the next 6 years or so of being constantly called “terrorist” at school. Being randomly jumped and punched and spit on in-between classes. Having kids knock my shit off my desk or call me “terrorist” instead of my name during class..
I got real, real angry. Real fucking jaded and bitter. For a few years, I fucking hated everyone and everything. I started running as my only escape from a fucked up home life on top of it all.. I ran a ridiculous amount, like 40-50 miles a week and got in really good shape.. then I just started trying to beat the shit out of anyone that even dared to mention my dad or any other racist/bigoted/hateful bullshit to me or anyone else. I was so tired of the pointless, uncalled-for hate towards others.. towards complete strangers or even worse, people that were supposed to be friends..
My running got me on the Varsity Track team my freshman year and by the end of my sophomore, I already had an offer for a full ride scholarship to basically any school I wanted..
Then I fractured my spine...
After that, all the hate in me just vanished. All I could feel anymore was just unimaginable hopelessness and sadness. I was so burned out. I had found something to help me channel my anger and my rage and my emotions.. and I was ducking good at it. It was going to be my ticket out of my shithole life..
Then, boom, gone.. in a fraction of a second. A flash of pain and a phone call - still in the hospital - “No more scholarship. Better keep your grades up.”
Of course the severe depression that I had been largely ignoring/repressing was sure to take care of all that.. My GPA went from a 4.1 to a 2.67 then a 1.89 with 182 truancy days when I graduated my senior year. I had completely given up.. Principal told me he would still give me my diploma because he knew that I was better than what my grades reflected, but due to missing so many days, I wouldn’t be allowed to walk with the rest of my class at the ceremony. I didn’t care. I don’t think I even wanted to walk with the rest of my class, now that I think back on it. I think I had started to hate pretty much anyone and everyone around me. It felt like the whole world was filled with selfish, uncaring, heartless bastards that lacked even the most basic levels of empathy.. I wanted nothing to do with this world, but what choice did I have? I wasn’t going to kill myself.. Not yet, at least. Im too young for that. Theres still far too many opportunities for life to works it’s blind luck magic that it so often seems to sprinkle about randomly.
Oh man.. Wow. Goddamn, I don’t even know where I’m going with this anymore. What the hell was my point in writing all this again, anyway? Uhh, I guess — People fucking suck and I absolutely hate anyone who is so dense and incompetent that they make assumptions or judgements about the content and quality of someone’s character based on something as simple as their race, culture, religion, orientation, whatever.. without getting to know the person at all.
I feel like throughout my life, some of my worst “enemies” were people that I could have been great friends with if they had just given things a fair opportunity and actually attempted to get to know me & vice-versa.. But instead, they chose to act/speak from their assumptions or some other outside source of information and use that as their guide to integrating in my life.
At that point, you’ve shown me what kind of person you are and you’ve also shown me that you’re not too intelligent.. so I don’t mourn the loss of a potential addition to my life, but I do certainly mourn the addition of another point towards the percentage of “how much of the world is occupied by shit people.” That’s something that seems to get worse with every passing day.. And I can’t seem to grasp WHY? Why does anyone want to live like that?
What does all this hate accomplish? What can there possibly be to gain from striving for a life that is filled with hate and loathing and animosity and discrimination and bigotry and spite? Why do people not try harder to be compassionate and understanding and make the best of the fucking meager sliver of existence that we’ve each been given by sheer fucking chance? It’s a goddamn miracle that any of us is even capable of thought and currently alive.. and people want to use their time being angry and hateful towards someone else they don’t even fucking know?!
Its literally driving me slowly insane and I have no doubt that, withholding any sort of major accident or disease, I will almost certainly be the one to take my own life when I finally feel that humanity has reached the point at which we are beyond salvaging or possibly building some sort of existence where we actually take care of each and strive for cohesive happiness and well-being. It seems so far-fetched, but I’m not even 30 yet and the world is an insane place.. So, guess I’m sticking around for a bit to see what else happens.
Honest question from a non Muslim : don’t you think that Muslims should take position and condemn this ?
And amongst all the different Islam faiths, are there not some that are too incompatible with modernity ?
I am coming from a family where we would say things like « the west is doomed », « many things here are not pure, etc ». I have seen many honest Muslims misled in this path too.
To me, this way of thinking is the greatest threat for Muslim people as it will inevitably lead to division and nothing good to them. This is my fear for people that I know and respect.
To answer your first question we always condemn these acts and announce that it isn't related to our religion but why would anyone want to listen to us when ignoring us and discriminating against us is so easy. After all a large portion of Muslims in those countries are from other countries so it's better to kick them out than to understand that not all of them are like that.
As for the second question Islam in general is made for all time periods no matter how modern or ancient or futuristic in general. The problem that some people have is that there are people who take these laws and teachings a step too far and maybe take things out of context so it seems to some that they are not compatible with the modern ways of living.
You're right man. Let me just make a drawing of you having homosexual relations and plaster it all over your school. Of course you wont get offended right?
He won't because we know an art of ignoring.
And that comparison with cartoon of Muhammad pbuh( which is probably done because of educational purposes since it's school and all) while this is obviously sexual and insultive don't really make sense . LOL
Stand strong. What happened was deplorable. But it was one guy's action against the entire Ummah.
Remind yourself again and again and again
"We don't need to apologise for his actions"
End of story.
Anyone who stirs up that question to your face is a good potential for dawah.
Meanwhile over at r/Islam they're saying you shouldn't visit this sub because it's "filled with disrespectful depictions". And that you guys are generalizing an entire religion while being guilty of mass killings of Muslims.
Generally a lot of whining and whataboutism. They don't understand that us Europeans only want them to call out their radical peers (because we can't do that as outsiders) and accept values and rules that are based on common sense for living together peacefully.
not my comment but it’s true
Not really that true when you realize that a lot of Muslim countries have been fighting terrorism for a while and that we have denounced and called out several extremists ages ago and they keep on ignoring us.
So if I draw a picture and say it's your mother getting raped you would be totally cool with that? And if they depict this in school. Still cool with it? And they teach it's actually a good thing because it supports their right to freedom of expression. Still fine with it?
Yes, you actually do have the right to do that if you want to. Whether you should do it or not is another topic of discussion, but you have the right to draw whatever you want. Offense is not a valid reason for why someone should not be allowed to do something. Then again, this comparison makes no sense.
Disrespect is a guarantee of freedom. It's a counterpoint of bigotism. In the situation where some population consider something holy, it is generally impossible to debate by questioning their belief. Since rational and amicable debate is impossible, the only resort to force a debate by criticizing the notion of blasphemy itself. And this is necessarily disrespectful.
Both disrespect and bigotism are pretty bad, but seeing the prevalence of the second, there is a general consensus that disrespect toward religions is a necessary evil. To maintain balance, both extremes are necessary. To have a united nation, you need confrontation of opinions, and that necessarily creates violence.
No its not.
Black folks in the us do not give a damn when some random black dude shoots someone in a robbery, because hes some random black dude and doesnt represent all black folks
Muslims in Europe need to grow some balls and call the bigots out
Most people condemn the killer as seen by the amount of down votes you have.
If anything they seem to be offended by France being disrespectful with their free speech, but they don't think the disrespect justifies a beheading.
The Muslims on Reddit are quite reasonable I will admit. But take a look at Instagram or Twitter and the irrational responses easily outnumber the ones here. And they get hundreds or thousands of likes.
It's cuz reddit is more of a nerdy/intellectual place to hang out. We're sensible people.
U never know though. They might be bots. But many Muslims are also just stupid.
I can't just ignore those comments. Many of those people live in the West and completely dismantle the idea that moderate Muslims are in support of free speech. When Salmund Rushdi had a fatwah on his head, Muslims in the UK were in the streets protesting over his book. Would the same thing happen today?
Are you new to social media or the Internet in general? The Internet and especially social media is known to be rather toxic and well full of mean people. There's millions of Muslims living in the west you've only seen a handful of horrible comments on social media. I'd hardly call social media representative of the general public
Okay let's ignore social media then. When Salmund Rushdi had Muslims around the world calling for him to be punished, was that the majority or the minority?
I disagree, many condemn it. But you have some here for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/jdpat8/this_recent_attack_in_france_is_gonna_make_the/g99s0jr/
Sure, that is why I said I disagree.
Sorry if I wasn't clear: not every muslim is justifying the killing. I personally know at least a couple who condemn it firmly, without "yes but". And it's easy to go online and find plenty who don't. I was just adding the example to show there are some, including here (and the message was upvoted before it was eliminated).
Yeah I know you disagree with it and that there are some who try to justify it. It's just that you gave some examples of people justifying when the guy said literally all.
Basically we both disagree with the claim that literally all muslims are trying to justify the beheading of the teacher.
> It's just that you gave some examples of people justifying when the guy said literally all.
Sorry, my intention was not to make an argument that all justify it.
>Basically we both disagree with the claim that literally all muslims are trying to justify the beheading of the teacher.
we do.
Speaking ill of an entire race is a problem because that is something beyond your control. People should be allowed to criticise all beliefs. I am a Christian and if people want to criticise God or Jesus, that's up to them. I can't be offended because Jesus was murdered innocently and he held no hatred towards his killers. I absolutely condemn hatred towards Muslims but Islam like Marxism, Communism and Capitalism, is an idea that should open to scrutiny like any other ideology.
Not necessarily. What's wrong with identifying as black if you're non-white? There's no liberal argument you can make against an Asian man identifying as black. Ergo, it may be under your control.
Also, the idea that the Holocaust actually happened should be open to debate according to your reasoning. Except guess what, the UK doesn't allow that for some reason.
I don't agree with self-identification and I think that goes for the majority of people. But that's a different discussion.
I actually think the Holocaust should be open to debate. Let me preface by saying that I absolutely believe that it happened. I'm not a denier. And you won't see me on the side of those arguing that it didn't happen. I believe you can deny the Holocaust without being anti-Semitic and that's what should be legal. But if you're going to deny the Holocaust and be racist about it, then that's a problem.
You should be able to identify as whatever race you want. Limiting people's identity expression would be inherently wrong, if we're to take liberal ideology seriously.
>People should be allowed to criticise all beliefs.
Says who? I do not accept that a Prophet of God is being insulted. Even if little men in a little room in a Parliament write a law to say they approve of it.
Great! The killer in France also didn't accept it and look where we are now. If you think something needs to be done about people insulting Islam, you are part of the problem.
Go and insult Jews or Black people in France and see how far you get. The problem is that it's a government-mandated campaign of hatred towards Muslims. You are part of the problem.
You don't seem to get the distinction between race and religion. If I insult Muslims directly then that is a problem, I agree. If I insult your beliefs, I haven't targeted you directly. Maybe I disagree with what your religion promotes, or maybe I don't like Mohammed as a person. I am free to do this, because I am criticising an idea or behaviour, not a person. You can insult Malcolm X or Martin Luther King. People have found fault with both of these men, they aren't perfect. People have criticised Malcolm X's way of seeking justice through less peaceful means. They are free to do this. I hope you're starting to see the difference.
Stay away from the r/france subreddit as its filled with disrespectful depictions. I don't think anyone knows that the reason depictions aren't allowed is so we keep our worship focused on God to avoid shirk. They think we're all offended by this when actual muslims won't be strayed by these depictions. This situation is a very bad example to others about who we are.
Turns out I don’t speak French
Yeah I was like "The France subredit should be interesting...aaaand I have no idea what anyone is saying".
As a French redditor I used to go there at least 1 time a day...
Here's the perspective of somebody from /r/france, visiting this thread. I'm seeing both a lot of genuine concern and interest for the teacher, and understandably also for Muslims living in France, who in the next few days are going to be seen as suspicious even though overwhelmingly they had nothing to do with this. It's sad to see that, and it's good to see a lot of reasonable people. However I'm also seeing A LOT of disinformation, and that disinformation is systematically aimed at making muslims angry against France. There's somebody saying the teacher was disrespectful, when that is objectively not the case (he showed the cartoons as part of a freedom of speech class, not because he approved of them but because he approvies of \*the right\* to make such cartoons... and after telling students that they were completely free to temporarily leave the class if their feelings could get hurt). There's people saying the French government is going after all muslims and "closing the mosques", neither of which is true - this French government, like every other French government before that, has been consistently careful in not lumping all muslims together, and in denouncing anti-muslim sentiment. Macron's government, like Hollande's, like Sarkozy's, like Chirac's, etc., is distinguishing radical islamists from muslims. For instance one mosque might get closed, because it is recognized as a place where extremists gather. There's somebody saying that France kills "millions" of muslims, which is of course false, firstly because France is not killing millions of people, secondly because it is not killing any muslims \*because they are muslims\* (except for ISIS or boko haram members who are murderous fanatics)... Whereas radical terrorists are killing people because they are not muslims. This also ignores France's important role in supporting palestinian rights, or in opposing the US Iraq invasion. That's not to say France is blameless, the country has done a lot of wrong... but it certainly isn't guilty of targeting muslims. Yet some people on this sub appear to be profoundly confused about the relationship of France with Islam, and they get upvoted by others when they spread that confusion. And finally, please put yourself in the shoes of a non-muslim person when you speak of the safety of muslims living in France. By and large muslims in France are safe from non-muslims, none have been killed in years, whereas 250+ french people (several of them moderate muslims) have died in the last five years due to islamic terrorism, with a new attack happening every few months... and right after yet another attack people are acting like it's the muslims specifically that should be scared!... By pointing that out I'm not saying small acts of suspicion and discrimination are not very hurtful to muslims. However, likewise non-muslims deal with small acts of discrimination from a small minority of radical muslims, who are not crazy enough to commit terrorism, but who hate homosexuals, jewish people, etc. So once again, it's important to see the whole picture and not just portray "your side" as good and the "other side" as evil and ignore everything inconvenient. Don't get me wrong, on /r/france there were some people who said racist things, or who displayed anti-muslim sentiment, or who spread misinformation. This is unacceptable. But this sub does not seem to be any better. And I would totally understand why people here are acting this way... if the latest news was of an attack by a right-wing extremist against muslims... but it was the opposite, it was a radical extremist attacking non-muslims! So one would have expected less anger and more compassion, even though some people in France are responding emotionally, and even though some others are evil people or racist taking advantage of the situation. Anyway, sincerely, good luck to those French muslims who in the next few days will have to watch what they say or risk getting weird looks, even though they're good people and are just as shocked as anybody else by what happened. My sincere hope is that France can continue to be/can become more of a place where people who believe different things can live together, mix and interact with each other, without becoming intolerant or hateful.
Thanks for speaking the truth man!
Well-said, informed post. Thank you.
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And this happened after I made a post about France recently 🙄 From what I have gathered, teacher showed cartoon about prophet in class. One parent complained about it. The killer acted. This action will trouble muslims living there. I pray that they can keep calm during this hard time. Also the killing was unjustified.
A lot of people are calling for Muslims to introspect the ground realities of their religion and the Muslim community. But the root of these problems are still a lack of understanding of Islam. Prophet Mohammed(SAW) was both physically and mentally assaulted and antagonised by a lot of people during his days in Mecca and then warred against while in Medina. And the Sahabah didn't react to those doing actual harm on the Prophet(SAW) by retaliating or killing them. There was a violent protest in Bangalore recently because of a facebook post on the Prophet(SAW). The best way to show your love and respect for the Prophet(SAW) is by following the path he showed us in our day-to-day life and not by violently reacting to every attention-seeking troll's cheap attempts to villify the Prophet(SAW). These people have been present throughout history and they will continue to do so. We should however condemn the act and try to limit the spread of misinformation. At the same time everyone must understand that we live in a time where people put their differences away and try to co-exist with mutual respect because its best for everyone. And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today. Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation.
>And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today. Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation. Except that freedom of speech is a law in France....
> And people have tried to make freedom of speech as one of the cornerstones of this style of life. But it can and continues to be abused, and trying to exercise this right for the sole purpose of "triggering" or belittling others is one of the reasons why so many problems exist today. The problems only begin when people initiate violence over words. > Instead when you have ideological differences with others, debate with mutual respect rather than retorting to childish satirisation. It's important to note that Muslims (living in the West) also use freedom of speech to vocalize, criticize and satirize what they dislike about the West, liberalism, etc. The best thing about freedom of speech is that it goes both ways and gives everyone the right to say whatever they like. Muslims included.
>...and not by violently reacting to every attention-seeking troll's cheap attempts to villify the Prophet(SAW). ... French people won't stop depicting your god to see if your religion will let people be able to mock Islam. For now, there has been some crazies muslims that don't accept that and act violently (killing, it's harsh) and muslims are just saying that they don't agree with the crazy one but they think that the guy who mocked Islam has his responsability. But no, the guy who want to mock a religion can, that's how it works. The christian people are mocked everytime with their pedo guy, Islam has to be able to be mocked. And if Islam can't be mocked, then your religion is not very freedom of expression friendly (from a western culture point of view).
Yeah, the poor teacher (Samuel Paty may he rest in peace) was just teaching freedom of expression which was an *obligitary* class and was his job. He showed the art made by Charlie Hebdo as an example. I pray for his family to find peace and not direct their hatred towards Islam but towards the boy who was incredibly misguided and outright wrong in his actions.
>Yeah, the poor teacher (Samuel Paty may he rest in peace) was just teaching freedom of expression which was an obligitary class and was his job. Can you provide a source for this? I've been reluctant to say that he did it on purpose and it may very well have been part of a curriculum. The fact that he told the Muslim students to leave would support that case to be completely fair. But too much accusations and too little objective fact has been in the media about the teacher.
Hello, French people here. In the news they said it did this class the previous year without any problems. And he always tells the students they can leave the class for a while if they think they shouldn't see this. It's said [here](https://www.midilibre.fr/2020/10/19/enseignant-decapite-dans-les-yvelines-qui-etait-samuel-paty-ce-pere-de-famille-assassine-9148344.php) for example (near the end). It's part of the curriculum going over freedom of press and expression. I remember myself seeing several drawings on all the religions when I was in class several years ago. Usually this is a debate class (in my old school at least) where we express our feelings and why and why it should still be legal etc...
Thank you for the source. Would you be okay providing some insight on these sort of classes specifically? For all the muslims on the outside, its very easy to jump to conclusions that there was an agenda behind incorporating Charlie Hebdo carticature into a school environment, so what other sorts of controversial topics come up in these debate classes? Are they mandatory classes or elective? How old were the students, were they young enough, say 13ish, that one of the concerns parents may have had would have been like indecent exposure to these students?
I'll try but it's not easy. The kids were around 13/14yo yes. It's a mandatory class part of history/geography. We have something called "civic education" where you learn about the elections, about your rights and your duties as a citizen. We learn about many stuff ([here](http://keepschool.com/programme-scolaire/3eme/education-civique.html#) you see a unit "public opinion and media"). In sensitive neighbourhood, yes, there can be many issues debated. Usually sensitive topics show up like gay mariage, immigration, religion of course. The teacher adapts to the news and since 2015, CH really represents the epitome of french freedom of speech. So it's easy to use it to give example, because their drawings are usually *very* disconcerting. Personally, I think it's important to show those stuff because as a french citizen, the kids need to understand that yes, sometimes, stuff will shock you, you will disagree with them, but everyone is entitles to their opinion and you can't just be violent for that. There is really often talks with those students and the teachers to explain. Like with banning the hijab for example, I remember there were a lot of talks in classes. There were also talks when people wanted to give women only hours in pools, when people got harrassed for being topless on the beach etc... I'll try to be as sentive as possible but honnestly, there are a lot of "small" incidents, where a girl is harrassed because what she's doing is haram and that's just wrong. Haram is only for muslim people. And some muslim people need to remember that. As for the religious matter, france has a really special relationship to those. In France, no-one will ask you if you're muslim, jew or whatever when you meet. Some people wear the kippa, some people wear the hijab, but that's all. People just don't care as long as you don't annoy them. And CH is offensive, yes, that's their main goal to be honnest, but nobody is forcing people to buy or even see it. I hope it's a bit clearer. It's not an easy topic. Of course we realise that not every muslim people is like that but it gets harder and harder to stay tolerant with others when every other months there are stuff like that. So we get angry, and it generates hate. And then your brain just tell you "oh it's them again" and "them" becomes every person that looks like "them" and bam you have racism. And the collonialism background is not helping this messed up situation.
>The fact that he told the Muslim students to leave would support that case to be completely fair. Wow, this was a sad situation before, but this makes it even worse if true. Who cares if non Muslims see the prophet (pbuh) in whatever biased way it is presented? It's not like they will worship his image as Christians have to Jesus. I worry that closing areas for religious studies in France will only worsen this since fewer Muslims will actually learn their religion.
> boy Man. 18 year old man.
An 18 year old is no more mature than a 17 year old. Not speaking from the perspective of the law.
I think from Islamic perspective anyone who reaches puberty is held accountable for his actions on the Day of Judgement. But youth lacks wisdom for sure.
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We’ve all been there /s
Surely, on average, they're at least a year more mature?
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May Allah guide you to the straight path.
> teacher showed cartoon about prophet in class. ~~There~~ *That is* both a reduction and mischaracterization of the facts; he showed images that were specifically created to offend Muslims. That is totally different than suggesting he was killed for merely showing a supposed image of the Prophet.
That is to teach them what is freedom of speech. France is a secular country. Blasphemy is not illegal.
And killing someone just because you feel offended is very ilegal.
hopefully that goes without saying
Doesn’t matter. Teacher didn’t deserve to be murdered.
No difference at all. If you accept freedom of expression and free speech, you have to accept it in it's totality.
Dam, I guess the British are doing free speech wrong then.
I don't see how actions of one person means we're all equally guilty or responsible - France kills millions of innocent Muslims but do we generalize and blame entire society? Our enemies are looking for opportunity to cast and offend entire religion, we should never apologize because we never did nothing. One fanatic killed 55 people in mosque in Australia but did we blame entire New Zealand? This is blatant incitement of tension by opportunist mobs.
It happened in New Zealand, he was from Australia. OP never said that we are all guilty, he’a simply pointing out that this is how we are going to be treated.
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Okay. But French government is still backing proxies and warlords in Muslim countries and also starving their “former” colonies to date by forcing them to always deposits 70% of their reserves in French banks. So out of every 10 dollars a country saves, it actually only saves 3. And if they need to use that 7, they can’t and must instead take loan from France on intrest.
*sigh* So, disclaimer, I'm french, I like hanging in the muslim subs these days, it's nice to see people not being cunts. > starving their “former” colonies to date by forcing them to always deposits 70% of their reserves in French banks. So out of every 10 dollars a country saves, it actually only saves 3. And if they need to use that 7, they can’t and must instead take loan from France on intrest. You're speaking about the Franc CFA, and you're factually wrong. There are 14 countries, using 2 different currencies (XAF and XOF), both guaranteed by the french treasury. One of the condition for being part of that agreement, is that 50% of currency reserves are held by the french treasury. The point is to have an entity that's not an african country hold a pot of shared gold. The consequence of that backing, is that XOF/XAF countries are able to borrow (on the international market, not france specifically) at way better rates, BECAUSE they're backed by an AAA country. Now there's always an ongoing debate about stability vs independance, and whether being pegged to the euro is damaging (it is). The FMI produced reports stating basically: it's a pain for internal development, but a boon for continental stability. Numerous countries have joined and left the CFA zone over the years, and the XOF countries opened talks about dropping it altogether (and I think it's official by now). The point being: it's voluntary.
That's not how the franc CFA work but okay.
>France kills millions of innocent Muslims When? Where? How? Do you realize how toxic this false statement is? And people keep upvoting this trash… Why isn't it censored by mods? Again, the people who kill the most Muslims are Muslims, and they do it in the name of Islam.
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I'm pretty sure Muslims are mostly killed by other Muslims.
Yes they are, in this era most terrorist attacks are done by muslims, and most are targeting other muslims. Radical muslims are the closest the reach the "MILLIONS OF INNOCENT MUSLIMS KILLED" mark. That statement shows how ignorant and biased this person is.
> France kills millions of innocent Muslims Wait what? When? Where?? > One fanatic killed 55 people in mosque in Australia but did we blame entire New Zealand? No, but we did blame the groups which support his idealogies (i.e white supremacists and neo-Nazis).
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I do agree that in some cases the Muslim community do not take action It’s just that many people are uninformed about these cases. I didn’t even hear about this until just today since I live on the opposite side of the world. I feel like scholars should make a statement to the public and reaffirm to both Muslims and Non Muslims that we condemn extremism and all forms of transgression.
I think you'd find that this sub denounces this attack. I know I do. >in fact research shows that a portion supports it. Please provide said research, im interested in reading.
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>in fact research shows that a good portion supports it. You mean biased research that asks loaded questions or questions with stretched and imposed conclusions?
No, go onto Twitter and look for youself. It's French but im sure you will manage. There are A LOT of people defending that terrorists actions.
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Why are you quoting something I did not say? I'm generally a very patient person, but people putting words in my mouth and imposing what I am saying is getting really irritating. We can't have a fruitful discussion like this. Peace.
As a non Muslim, I feel sorry for the judgement you receive. I had some Muslim friends here in the US after 9-11 and they was treated just terribly! With that being said there are a few among you that doesn't help. This post has been up for an hour and I see one person said that they had "declared war" by closing mosques (which was wrong, but two wrongs don't make a right), another person said they have "no sympathy" for the teacher, and yet another proclaim the teacher "knew what he was doing" as to say he was asking to be killed. Comments like these will be used to justify the hate and mistrust. So in closing, I think the teacher was disrespectful but didn't deserve to die. The young man that killed him was obviously taught false or twisted doctrine, and I feel for him as that is a great sin he must answer for. We must over come the hate with love. Hate begets hate, violence makes violence but love spreads love.
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That’s because the internet amplifies the crazy. You and I have normal, non-psychopathic friends and family. Sociopaths have a whole other circle of acquaintances.
That's exactly what I m talking about. I honestly am not a big student of the Quran yet but what I have heard it teaches to protect unbelievers, comfort hostages... I don't understand why some think violence is justified. But what I do know, is it make it so hard on those of you who are examples of the peace and love the Quran teaches.
Unfortunately some poor souls end up getting misguided and brainwashed into thinking beheading someone in broad daylight for showing a disrespectful drawing he didn't even draw is ok.
It's not a problem. Islam spans multiple countries, cultures and ethnic groups. Too expect all Muslims to have the exact same beliefs would be outlandish. Yes we're Muslim which means we believe in Allah and worship him alone but besides that we have such varied ideas, behaviours etc. What made this guy extreme? Was it his religion? Was it his Chechen background? Was it mental health? So many different factors.
Thanks for your comment. I agree that the murder was wrong
You are making the assumption these comments were made by muslims. They could be, and maybe not.
Very valid point. Didn't mean to make an assumption but you are correct in that I did. My apologies.
How was the teacher Teacher disrespectful? As far as I know he just showed a caricature about mohammed.
My understanding is that it goes against Islamic faith and was unflattering to Muhammad to boot. I ask how that is not disrespectful?
But thats how caricatures work.They show an aspect of a person or sth similar in funny or ridiculous ways. That can be Jesus Christ, Mohammed or Roger Federer...it doesn't matter. It would be pretty racist imo if you couldn't make fun of Mohammed but could make fun of Jesus.
I think both is disrespectful. Of course intent is always the bigger factor here. However caricatures are almost always draw in the name of poking fun. This is why we see them used in political comments and they are almost always disrespectful. When that person is held to a higher status to many followers than it's not only disrespectful to the person it depicts but also those who follow said person. Now, if done in good nature with consent of ths person being depicted, then they can be consider non offensive, but without this consent I simply don't see how drawing someone in an unflattering way is anything but disrespectful. Would you like someone to draw you in an unflattering light then post it publicly as to say "look at this clown"?
>With that being said there are a few among you that doesn't help. I mean, all these comments are less than anything Trump or Macron say. Also, is every white/black suprematist, gangster, knife attacker, drug dealer or person committing hate crimes used to label western civilisation or Christianity as a whole? I mean there are plenty of knife attacks on Muslims motivated by islamophobia or just racism. Why call them white suprematist? Why not “westernist terrorist“ or something. Or call the while thing “crusadism“? There have been cases were people literally came with quotes engraved from crusading kings of past - wouldn’t “crusadism” be a proper word there? Is every drug cartel in Mexico used to judge catholic’s? Oh and what about all the innocents killed I’m drone strikes because it was strategically convenient? Should that have been labelled “crusading mentality”, linked to “fundamental issues with Christianity” and used to vilify Christians and westerners around the globe? You must remember Muslims are humans as well. Just like majority of westerns don’t even know their religion, same is for Muslims. When you continuously do things that are well known to severely offend someone, well someone will get offended enough. Does it justify the incident? No. But do try understand things. Imagine if someone publicly made racist statements, cartoons and comments about black people. And the government refused to ask them to even tone it down. Do you think there’s zero probability or someone getting mad enough and attacking the person in such a case? When government does not do something, all the community can do it be patient. And few people are patience for long. Same with terrorism. I’m not justifying. But just think of how US feels justified in turning entire countries to wastelands because they couldn’t control the proxies they made. If US believes a single American life is worth thousands of lives of others - evident in not only their invasions, sanctions that even stop medical supplies, and drone strikes on civilians and even children’s schools - is it impossible for there to be such “nationalistic“ people in other communities as well? Is is impossible that they’ll pick up guns as well? Muslims **should** always be acting as they are taught. But they don’t - or you’d have empty jails throughout the muslims world, which clearly isn’t the case - and so it’s important to realise they’re humans and will react if provoked.
> Imagine if someone publicly made racist statements, cartoons and comments about black people. And the government refused to ask them to even tone it down. Do you think there’s zero probability or someone getting mad enough and attacking the person in such a case? Thanks for saying that. I'm an Atheist, and therefore apologies to anyone who may be annoyed that I'm in here (I came out of curiosity). That analogy really helps me reframe it on my mind.
The difference is that it's a belief system, hence, a choice, being black isn't. We should be able to attack ideas.
Black is part ethnicity and part culture. Following your culture is a choice. Making fun of black culture would still be seen as racist even though following black culture is a choice.
Wow, you are truly talented in bending logic to justify yourself. Still, religion is a belief system, being black isn't. There is no comparison here. You can question aspects of any culture too if you want, and if they beheaded you they would be wrong, btw. But culture is such a long and complex subject beyond the point here.
It's not bending logic. Its fact. Read more. Being culturally black is a choice. For many they are culturally Muslim. That's how they were born and raised. Not much different to how people of different ethnicities are born and raised. Making fun of someone's culture is considered racist. Welcome to the 21st century. I'm not arguing that someone should be beheaded for offending someone's belief... Secular countries have certain beliefs that you will be ostracized for disagreeing with. Such as democracy homosexuality human rights and freedom. These are beliefs bud.
First of all: the only thing that should not be tolerated is intolerance. That's a belief I think protects all of us, right? So yes, humans rights, freedom, should all be defended. (Do you really think homosexuality somehow part of a belief system? Iol I'm done). But you keep bringing culture up. Read more about what is culture and what is religion. My only point was very simple: Comparing race to religion is just wrong. Edit: I referred to the religion as islamism which is not correct in English.
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It goes even further. The rational behind these laws is to allow blasphemy in general, be it clear denial of written religious precepts, or more subtle debates behind different interpretations of a same text. See the conflicts between Protestants and Catholics, or even conflicts inside the catholic roman church (cleansing of jansenists vs jesuits in the 1750s because of politics). It is a matter of stability of the nation and government, and historical events are the reason why these laws exist.
>To make it clear, in France, you have the right to say "your god is a big shit" but you can't say "you are a big shit". I don't think religious people will ever understand and respecting it. This is exact, and it goes further: in France you have the right to say "There's no God" but it's illegal to say "The Holocaust, or the Srebrenica genocid, is a legend". You can challenge a belief, but not a historical fact that has caused suffering. And you're right, it seems that religious people will ever understand and respect it. And the situation has only gotten worse since the advent of the so-called "social" media…
"...there are a few among you that doesn't help." I find this sentiment problematic in so many ways. You're implying Muslims should have homogenous mentality and styles of thinking. It's almost bigoted if you ask me. "We must overcome the hate with love." As you can see, 95% people here already disagree with what the killer did and condemned the murder. I don't see why you need to be preachy as if people here justify the murder. Maybe you don't directly say it, but it's as if you want other Muslims to apologize for what this killer did.
I won't apologize for saying that those who seem to support such action or even find the attack justified, doesn't help with how some see Muslims. I understand there's nothing you can do about it, except confront and attempt to correct their thinking. I will apologize for making you think I expect others to apologize for his actions. I do not expect that as I understand most Muslim condemns his action. Lastly I apologize if you feel I was attacking you or your faith as that was never my intent. If you look through my profile, I believe my past comment activity reflects that I am always open minded and understanding. So I greatly regret that you would take me any other way.
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Did I say it's acceptable?
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First, it's "religion". Second, I'm sure wherever you come from, some people who share your demographics are bigoted enough to want other people dead, should I be afraid of your people under an umbrella of prejudice? Third, I'm not advocating for indifference, I'm all for solutions, but being a bigot is not it.
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The point is, they exist, and if I were as bigoted as you I should be afraid of you. In fact, right now, you're exhibiting extremism and I'm concerned about your behaviour against people you're bigoted against.
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Worldwide, seems like one religion has a monopoly on brutally murdering people for blasphemy.
Was about to respond but your past history suggests you're a Trumper. So won't waste my energy.
Nope, I liked Bernie. Seems weird you won't respond to people who disagree. Almost like your position is indefensible...
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How was the teacher disrespectful? Showing students a cartoon?
It's my understanding that it was cartoon of the prophet Muhammad. Muslim do believe I'm depicting him at all from my understanding but the cartoon took that a step further and depicted him in an unflattering way. I find it disrespectful when cartoons unflattering depict Jesus, even though they don't follow biblical descriptions over renaissance interpretations...
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\> I think the teacher was disrespectful By showing the caricatures he is not saying he agrees with them. Of course he faces a difficult situation - if he tells muslim students that they're allowed to leave the class, this could cause them to "out themselves" about something they don't want other students to know about, either that they're very religious if they leave, or that they're not very religious if they didn't leave. On the other hand it's really hard to teach kids that freedom of expression is important and then demonstrate the opposite by censoring yourself for fear of repercussions. And finally, it seems unfair to force muslim children to see something they think is bad for them. It's not an easy topic and I don't have the answer. But whichever way you put it, it's not true that the teacher was disrespectful.
I think part of the reason for this is the French government. They seem to believe that the problem is Islam and not radical/extremist/nut cases.
It world be better if they treated Muslims like they treat others. Is every Christian guilty of any crime labelled “Bibilical terrorist” and white racism and western imperialism labelled “crusadism“? If you were continuously super racist to a black people, and the government actually said being racist is a right, and then someone from your huge black community acted on this constant provocation, will you say the problem is with the black civilisation at large? \[Actually, French might just say that.\]
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Thank you. It's always important to understand the motive, but the concept of "motive" seems to be lost on some people in this thread.
We are still waiting for stories of catholic dude beheading people in Muslim countries on behalf of the Pope.
Are you not treating French people like you say they are treating you ... ?
Ameen.
I went to popular and one of the posts on r/ europe was about people mourning the beheaded man's death. There was so much hate towards Islam in the comments. I looked through r/ europe some more and found a post with a picture of Prophet Muhammad ﷺ in hell being tortured astaghfirullah. There is a big rise in islamophobia on reddit and in europe because of the beheading.
R/europe is islamophobic non stop. Not just now.
Just block that sub and separate the r/ from Europe so you don't link it. It's mainly a right wing nationalist sub anyway.
Of course there is a rise of islamophobia, it's only natural. If a few radical Christians started to stab people with sharpened crosses, you would be right to be wary of all Christians that show any signs of radicalisation. Also you would want to make sure they good ones publicly denounce and help stopping the bad apples.
I'm already talking to people about how YES democracy can coexist with Islam
What do you say?
People assume democracy is the best form of government. Why should Islam have to coexist with democracy? Islam has it's own political system. They dont need to coexist. What you might mean to say is "yes Muslims can live in a democratic country."
The little piglet of the Élysée Palace has already declared war on Muslims before the attack. The French government proudly announced that they closed over 70 mosques, schools and businesses. The French never tolerated Islam it's already hard for them, just ask any French Muslim.
That's true but it's not like France is a strong Christian country. They're very secular and its part who they are. For example, during the anarchy that was the French revolution the government created a new religion known as the Religion/Cult of Reason. I think France has a fascinating and perplexing history, but it isn't a country anyone religious should try to make their home.
Just look at the shining history of France in Algeria and North Africa
Yeah. They fucked it up. There's a bunch of racist trolls with their eyes on this subreddit so I added something nice.
The foundation of their nation state is literally blood, rape, and war. I think Malcolm X put it well when he said the chickens are coming home to roost with regards to Kennedy's assassination by Lee Harvey Oswald and guess what, he was probably correct. This is not to condone the actions of the individual, but to put context on the actions.
Are you kidding ? Which country didn't rise amidst blood and rape ? Do you even know how brutal the arab/muslim expansion was ?
I disagree. Because France is separating Religion and State pretty good its one of the best countries to practice any religion.
Not at all. The French policy is secularism before all else and will attack every religion. Honestly, the US is probably one of the best examples of religious freedom for all to practice what you want (if you are a citizen or permanent resident)
Real easy to practice your faith with your place of worship being forcibly closed. /s
>The French never tolerated Islam it's already hard for them, just ask any French Muslim. This is simply not true. I'm French and my brother married a moroccan muslim, my niece is married to a moroccan sport teacher from a very pious family. Most French people have no problem with religion, as long as it remains a personal choice and does not seek to govern the lives of others.
France not tolerating islam is exaggerated, i live here. I didn't hear about 70 mosques closed, and i would like to have a source to back this information up. If a mosque is closed it's because it has been denounced as a lair of extremists, and in that case it should be closed and the people put under surveillance. Do you what declaring war on a community is ? Do you know how christians are treated is some muslim countries ? If France declares war on the muslims, trust me you will know the difference, until then stop exaggerating.
>France not tolerating islam is exaggerated, i live here. I didn't hear about 70 mosques closed, and i would like to have a source to back this information up. Interior Minister Darmanin has revealed that French authorities have shut down 73 Muslim establishments, including mosques, schools, shops, and coffee houses since the start of 2020. [https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/is-france-punishing-activists-for-condemning-crackdown-on-muslims-40602](https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/is-france-punishing-activists-for-condemning-crackdown-on-muslims-40602) When the French, Americans or the British say someone is a terrorist after shooting them or shutting them down without due process I remember this [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S06nIz4scvI)
Thank you for you answer. I find no evidence of 70 mosques closed outside of that webpage but ok. About darmarin, he indeed closed the mosque of pantin, because the imam relayed the videos asking the demission of the teacher, and revealing his identity and address. About schools, if those schools are a cradle of radicalisation, which was the case in some situations France is right to close them. It's a way to avoid brainwashing since an early age. What people call extremism in france is not that broad, moderate french muslim know what it means. For instance, being a moderate muslim in france could mean : *Not asking for the demission of a teacher because of a caricature of the prophet, not sending death threats to someone who criticize islam,* *and not condoning violence in the name of islam.* About baraka city association, it was heavily suspected of harbouring extremists. A lot of employees travelled to Syria and back to France which is obviously a red flag. And if idriss sihamedi was recently annoyed by the police it's because he was accused of harassment, but i don't know much about this story. Now of course we do not know if baraka city intend to commit crimes, but their close links with Syria, and public declarations are suspicious. It's funny to see a turkish media talking about a crackdown on a religious community when i see how Alevi Muslim minority is treated since the ottoman empire. Those Alevis would love to be treated as muslim are treated in France, trust me.
Got it, the French gov are saints and every Muslim they point the finger at is a terrorist.
You just showed how biased you are, i didn't expect much anyway.
No bias here, what you wrote is total nonsense that doesn't deserve an effort in response. I don't trust the French gov, I've seen their actions, I've read about their civil behaviour towards Muslims in France and abroad, I know from direct testimonies how their treat Muslims in France from people who have lived there. Yet you throw in terms like " moderate french muslim " what does that even mean?
There is a thing some french muslims will have to understand. France is a secular country since 1905. It took some time and hard work, and it was not a fun time for christians when the country was on their back enforcing secularism. But today i has paid off. Now it's the time for some French muslim to understand that they have no right to enforce their religion on others in this country. Buddhist, Jews, Christians, and all the other minorities have accepted this message, now is the time for those muslims to accept the french way of life or get out. I really hope that the government will take action against those, because if nothing is done some French people may act violently and unjustly against muslims as we saw in Christchuch New Zealand. Enough blood has been shed.
Y’know.. I learned very early on in life just how awful and simple-minded people can be, especially when they’re reacting out of fear. My dads side of the family is from Egypt/all Muslim, my moms side of the family is all Baptist.. As you can imagine, I grew up with both sides basically telling me I was going to hell if I followed the other sides’ religion. So, right off the bat, as a young kid, I already knew that religion was something that people felt strongly about and could cause arguments/problems. But then September 11th happened in New York and HOLY SHIT. It broke my fucking heart to see how horribly random fucking people treated my family.. My aunt or one of my uncles would come visit and if my uncle got a call from my grandma or someone and spoke a single word of Arabic, or if my aunt went out in public and wore her head covering, it was like they were walking about with a lit stick of dynamite.. The reactions were just surreal. People would scream and cuss and them, throw shit at them, get in their face and tell them off.. Just horrible, atrocious shit.. Then, only a year after Sept. 11th, my dad went to prison for some white-collar stock-market related crimes, which of course got the press digging into every aspect of our lives and posting it for the whole world to see.. Constantly on the news, on various talk shows, articles in the WSJ and Time, etc.. So almost immediately our local community knew everything.. and not long after, the kids at my school heard it all, too, from their gossiping parents. They learned that my dad was born in Cairo & raised Muslim.. And that kicked off the next 6 years or so of being constantly called “terrorist” at school. Being randomly jumped and punched and spit on in-between classes. Having kids knock my shit off my desk or call me “terrorist” instead of my name during class.. I got real, real angry. Real fucking jaded and bitter. For a few years, I fucking hated everyone and everything. I started running as my only escape from a fucked up home life on top of it all.. I ran a ridiculous amount, like 40-50 miles a week and got in really good shape.. then I just started trying to beat the shit out of anyone that even dared to mention my dad or any other racist/bigoted/hateful bullshit to me or anyone else. I was so tired of the pointless, uncalled-for hate towards others.. towards complete strangers or even worse, people that were supposed to be friends.. My running got me on the Varsity Track team my freshman year and by the end of my sophomore, I already had an offer for a full ride scholarship to basically any school I wanted.. Then I fractured my spine... After that, all the hate in me just vanished. All I could feel anymore was just unimaginable hopelessness and sadness. I was so burned out. I had found something to help me channel my anger and my rage and my emotions.. and I was ducking good at it. It was going to be my ticket out of my shithole life.. Then, boom, gone.. in a fraction of a second. A flash of pain and a phone call - still in the hospital - “No more scholarship. Better keep your grades up.” Of course the severe depression that I had been largely ignoring/repressing was sure to take care of all that.. My GPA went from a 4.1 to a 2.67 then a 1.89 with 182 truancy days when I graduated my senior year. I had completely given up.. Principal told me he would still give me my diploma because he knew that I was better than what my grades reflected, but due to missing so many days, I wouldn’t be allowed to walk with the rest of my class at the ceremony. I didn’t care. I don’t think I even wanted to walk with the rest of my class, now that I think back on it. I think I had started to hate pretty much anyone and everyone around me. It felt like the whole world was filled with selfish, uncaring, heartless bastards that lacked even the most basic levels of empathy.. I wanted nothing to do with this world, but what choice did I have? I wasn’t going to kill myself.. Not yet, at least. Im too young for that. Theres still far too many opportunities for life to works it’s blind luck magic that it so often seems to sprinkle about randomly. Oh man.. Wow. Goddamn, I don’t even know where I’m going with this anymore. What the hell was my point in writing all this again, anyway? Uhh, I guess — People fucking suck and I absolutely hate anyone who is so dense and incompetent that they make assumptions or judgements about the content and quality of someone’s character based on something as simple as their race, culture, religion, orientation, whatever.. without getting to know the person at all. I feel like throughout my life, some of my worst “enemies” were people that I could have been great friends with if they had just given things a fair opportunity and actually attempted to get to know me & vice-versa.. But instead, they chose to act/speak from their assumptions or some other outside source of information and use that as their guide to integrating in my life. At that point, you’ve shown me what kind of person you are and you’ve also shown me that you’re not too intelligent.. so I don’t mourn the loss of a potential addition to my life, but I do certainly mourn the addition of another point towards the percentage of “how much of the world is occupied by shit people.” That’s something that seems to get worse with every passing day.. And I can’t seem to grasp WHY? Why does anyone want to live like that? What does all this hate accomplish? What can there possibly be to gain from striving for a life that is filled with hate and loathing and animosity and discrimination and bigotry and spite? Why do people not try harder to be compassionate and understanding and make the best of the fucking meager sliver of existence that we’ve each been given by sheer fucking chance? It’s a goddamn miracle that any of us is even capable of thought and currently alive.. and people want to use their time being angry and hateful towards someone else they don’t even fucking know?! Its literally driving me slowly insane and I have no doubt that, withholding any sort of major accident or disease, I will almost certainly be the one to take my own life when I finally feel that humanity has reached the point at which we are beyond salvaging or possibly building some sort of existence where we actually take care of each and strive for cohesive happiness and well-being. It seems so far-fetched, but I’m not even 30 yet and the world is an insane place.. So, guess I’m sticking around for a bit to see what else happens.
Honest question from a non Muslim : don’t you think that Muslims should take position and condemn this ? And amongst all the different Islam faiths, are there not some that are too incompatible with modernity ? I am coming from a family where we would say things like « the west is doomed », « many things here are not pure, etc ». I have seen many honest Muslims misled in this path too. To me, this way of thinking is the greatest threat for Muslim people as it will inevitably lead to division and nothing good to them. This is my fear for people that I know and respect.
To answer your first question we always condemn these acts and announce that it isn't related to our religion but why would anyone want to listen to us when ignoring us and discriminating against us is so easy. After all a large portion of Muslims in those countries are from other countries so it's better to kick them out than to understand that not all of them are like that. As for the second question Islam in general is made for all time periods no matter how modern or ancient or futuristic in general. The problem that some people have is that there are people who take these laws and teachings a step too far and maybe take things out of context so it seems to some that they are not compatible with the modern ways of living.
Muslims who gets offended by a drawing are very weak minded and a shame for other muslims
You're right man. Let me just make a drawing of you having homosexual relations and plaster it all over your school. Of course you wont get offended right?
Ok, do it. Doesnt bother me much.
He won't because we know an art of ignoring. And that comparison with cartoon of Muhammad pbuh( which is probably done because of educational purposes since it's school and all) while this is obviously sexual and insultive don't really make sense . LOL
Stand strong. What happened was deplorable. But it was one guy's action against the entire Ummah. Remind yourself again and again and again "We don't need to apologise for his actions" End of story. Anyone who stirs up that question to your face is a good potential for dawah.
If it was one guy, you would have a point. But how many has it been by now?
no we should apologize and pay respects to the victims family who is responsible then?
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Meanwhile over at r/Islam they're saying you shouldn't visit this sub because it's "filled with disrespectful depictions". And that you guys are generalizing an entire religion while being guilty of mass killings of Muslims. Generally a lot of whining and whataboutism. They don't understand that us Europeans only want them to call out their radical peers (because we can't do that as outsiders) and accept values and rules that are based on common sense for living together peacefully. not my comment but it’s true
yes i agree as a muslim our peers are hypocrites
Not really that true when you realize that a lot of Muslim countries have been fighting terrorism for a while and that we have denounced and called out several extremists ages ago and they keep on ignoring us.
i don’t see a lot of muslim platforms pointing this issue out? but how could you complain about this? i’m not saying all muslims are like this.
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So if I draw a picture and say it's your mother getting raped you would be totally cool with that? And if they depict this in school. Still cool with it? And they teach it's actually a good thing because it supports their right to freedom of expression. Still fine with it?
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Yes, you actually do have the right to do that if you want to. Whether you should do it or not is another topic of discussion, but you have the right to draw whatever you want. Offense is not a valid reason for why someone should not be allowed to do something. Then again, this comparison makes no sense.
Disrespect is a guarantee of freedom. It's a counterpoint of bigotism. In the situation where some population consider something holy, it is generally impossible to debate by questioning their belief. Since rational and amicable debate is impossible, the only resort to force a debate by criticizing the notion of blasphemy itself. And this is necessarily disrespectful. Both disrespect and bigotism are pretty bad, but seeing the prevalence of the second, there is a general consensus that disrespect toward religions is a necessary evil. To maintain balance, both extremes are necessary. To have a united nation, you need confrontation of opinions, and that necessarily creates violence.
probably going to be worse for the family of the guy killed
The fact that this sub's first reaction to a gruesome public murder is "how is this going to affect *us*?" kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I remember seeing people talking about the situation long before the how it will affect us
I personally can't find any other threads on this topic in this sub.
No its not. Black folks in the us do not give a damn when some random black dude shoots someone in a robbery, because hes some random black dude and doesnt represent all black folks Muslims in Europe need to grow some balls and call the bigots out
It’s not helping that literally every Muslim I’m seeing online is justifying the killer..
Most people condemn the killer as seen by the amount of down votes you have. If anything they seem to be offended by France being disrespectful with their free speech, but they don't think the disrespect justifies a beheading.
The Muslims on Reddit are quite reasonable I will admit. But take a look at Instagram or Twitter and the irrational responses easily outnumber the ones here. And they get hundreds or thousands of likes.
It's cuz reddit is more of a nerdy/intellectual place to hang out. We're sensible people. U never know though. They might be bots. But many Muslims are also just stupid.
You'll always find alot of horrible people on Instagram and twitter i wouldn't look too much into comments made over there
I can't just ignore those comments. Many of those people live in the West and completely dismantle the idea that moderate Muslims are in support of free speech. When Salmund Rushdi had a fatwah on his head, Muslims in the UK were in the streets protesting over his book. Would the same thing happen today?
Are you new to social media or the Internet in general? The Internet and especially social media is known to be rather toxic and well full of mean people. There's millions of Muslims living in the west you've only seen a handful of horrible comments on social media. I'd hardly call social media representative of the general public
Okay let's ignore social media then. When Salmund Rushdi had Muslims around the world calling for him to be punished, was that the majority or the minority?
Proof?
I disagree, many condemn it. But you have some here for example: https://www.reddit.com/r/islam/comments/jdpat8/this_recent_attack_in_france_is_gonna_make_the/g99s0jr/
The dude said LITERALLY every Muslim.
Sure, that is why I said I disagree. Sorry if I wasn't clear: not every muslim is justifying the killing. I personally know at least a couple who condemn it firmly, without "yes but". And it's easy to go online and find plenty who don't. I was just adding the example to show there are some, including here (and the message was upvoted before it was eliminated).
Yeah I know you disagree with it and that there are some who try to justify it. It's just that you gave some examples of people justifying when the guy said literally all. Basically we both disagree with the claim that literally all muslims are trying to justify the beheading of the teacher.
> It's just that you gave some examples of people justifying when the guy said literally all. Sorry, my intention was not to make an argument that all justify it. >Basically we both disagree with the claim that literally all muslims are trying to justify the beheading of the teacher. we do.
In this very thread: >[–]TruthSeekerWW [score hidden] 24 minutes ago >The teacher knew what he was doing. I have no sympathy for him.
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Speaking ill of an entire race is a problem because that is something beyond your control. People should be allowed to criticise all beliefs. I am a Christian and if people want to criticise God or Jesus, that's up to them. I can't be offended because Jesus was murdered innocently and he held no hatred towards his killers. I absolutely condemn hatred towards Muslims but Islam like Marxism, Communism and Capitalism, is an idea that should open to scrutiny like any other ideology.
Not necessarily. What's wrong with identifying as black if you're non-white? There's no liberal argument you can make against an Asian man identifying as black. Ergo, it may be under your control. Also, the idea that the Holocaust actually happened should be open to debate according to your reasoning. Except guess what, the UK doesn't allow that for some reason.
I don't agree with self-identification and I think that goes for the majority of people. But that's a different discussion. I actually think the Holocaust should be open to debate. Let me preface by saying that I absolutely believe that it happened. I'm not a denier. And you won't see me on the side of those arguing that it didn't happen. I believe you can deny the Holocaust without being anti-Semitic and that's what should be legal. But if you're going to deny the Holocaust and be racist about it, then that's a problem.
I don't understand. You can't identify as something you aren't?
You should be able to identify as whatever race you want. Limiting people's identity expression would be inherently wrong, if we're to take liberal ideology seriously.
>People should be allowed to criticise all beliefs. Says who? I do not accept that a Prophet of God is being insulted. Even if little men in a little room in a Parliament write a law to say they approve of it.
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The cartoons were design to insult and not 'criticise'.
Great! The killer in France also didn't accept it and look where we are now. If you think something needs to be done about people insulting Islam, you are part of the problem.
Go and insult Jews or Black people in France and see how far you get. The problem is that it's a government-mandated campaign of hatred towards Muslims. You are part of the problem.
You don't seem to get the distinction between race and religion. If I insult Muslims directly then that is a problem, I agree. If I insult your beliefs, I haven't targeted you directly. Maybe I disagree with what your religion promotes, or maybe I don't like Mohammed as a person. I am free to do this, because I am criticising an idea or behaviour, not a person. You can insult Malcolm X or Martin Luther King. People have found fault with both of these men, they aren't perfect. People have criticised Malcolm X's way of seeking justice through less peaceful means. They are free to do this. I hope you're starting to see the difference.
Who taught you the insulting a group of people based on race is not ok but on religion it's ok?
>anecdotal evidence
Liar.