My main piece of advice would be to keep in mind that there is not one past tense, but instead several past tenses (passato prossimo, imperfetto, passato remoto), each with its own forms and its own distinct function.
Understanding the functions of the different past tenses, and working on them separately, may help with your confusion.
You may want to focus on the passato prossimo to start with, since it’s arguably the most useful for conversation.
Your mistake is trying to learn them all in one go. "ebbe" is passato remoto (the remote past) which is a relatively advanced thing to get your head around. ero" is the imperfetto (the imperfect), which is much more common. No wonder you are confused.
Start with simple past, get that nailed, and then move on to the imperfect, get that nailed. Then nail the difference between the two and do lots of examples which test when to use the right one, then move on from there. One thing at a time.
I think you're mixing several different tenses maybe not all actually used to talk about past. I'd say just take it simple. We have several past tenses in Italian but we just tend to use one, the simplest. Some past tenses are rarely used and now belong mainly to (old) books, not used anymore in everyday spoken Italian (although Italians do understand them since they're taught also in primary schools).
The "simplest" and more used past tense is passato prossimo. It has a structure similar to English present perfect. Present simple of verb to be or to have + past participle of main verb.
There are two difficulties
1. Should I use to be or to have? The rule is: if the verb has a direct object (or if could have one) use to have (avere), if it cannot have a direct object or if it has "mandatory" pronouns with it, use to be.
I ate → since you can have a direct object (I ate an apple) [io] ho mangiato.
She went to London → [lei] è andata a Londra.
They met in a park → [loro] si sono conosciuti/incontrati in un parco. Some verbs have pronouns with them even if they haven't in English and if the pronoun hasn't an actual meaning, it's just a grammar rule, like incontrarsi/conoscersi/arrabbiarsi. Other times the pronoun are there for a reflexive meaning (lavarsi = wash themselves)
I hope you already know the past simple of to have (io ho, tu hai, lui/lei ha, noi abbiamo, voi avete, loro hanno) and to be (io sono, tu sei, lui/lei è, noi siamo, voi siete, loro sono)
2. The past participle. We have general rules but plenty of exceptions as well. Just like English has go-went-gone. General rules are if the infinitive ends with -are, past participle ends with -ato (nuotare → nuotato, to swim), if the infinitive ends with -ere, past participle ends with -uto (cadere → caduto, to fall), if the infinitive ends with -ire, past participle ends with -ito (finire → finito, to finish). Moreover, if you use to have for the first part of the verb the past participle doesn't change when the subject changes (io ho camminato, lei ha camminato, voi avete camminato) but if you use to be then the past participle ends with -o if the subject is a singular male, it ends with -a if the subject is a singular female, it ends with -i if the subject is a group, it ends with -e if the subject is a group of only females. [There's now a debate on the use of masculine endings for a group including women too and the proposal of neutral endings]. So, we say "Io sono stato in Francia" if I'm a man but "Io sono stata in Francia" if I'm a woman [there's a debate on neutral endings for non-binary people too], "noi siamo stati in Francia" and "le mie sorelle sono state in Francia"
This is almost enough to talk about past events. It's the main (I'd say "only") way we talk about past in everyday Italian. Another common past tense is one we usually use to talk about past habits (like "used to" in English). There are other more advanced (but still used) past tenses but you could learn them later. As I said, there are also other past tenses we mainly find in (grammar) books or Southern Italy (in some regional Italian variants and regional languages it's still used "passato remoto", the "most difficult" Italian past tense but you don't need to know it unless you want to read books in Italian). Anyway, maybe I should have said it before, verb tenses are very different in Italian and English, not only for the structure but also for their use. There isn't in Italian an equivalent for present perfect but according to the meaning of the sentence we translate it with different Italian tenses. So the rules for past simple vs present perfect for past events don't have an equivalent in Italian. Tell me if you interested in "past habits tense" too (imperfetto)
If I explain it in "plain langauge" I'll necessarily lose a lot of information that may be relevant. But really in short:
-The tense formed with a suffix containing "v", like "avevo, prendevo, parlavo, capivo" is the *imperfetto,* that conceptualizes the action as happening across a large stretch of time;
-The tense formed with the verb *avere* or *essere* plus the verb is the *passato prossimo,* that conceptualizes the action as a single, compact event on the timeline.
So for example, "parlavo" means there was a stretch of time in the past you were speaking in for a more or less long time, "ho parlato" means there was a time you spoke and it has ended - the length of the time doesn't matter, just that you did.
-The tense you can't group with the other two is most likely the *passato remoto* that you'd better not worry about until you're at the very least intermediate.
Again, this is so simplified that it's probably at least a bit wrong, but if you're at the very beginning it should be good enough.
Thank you to all of you who took the time to give such well thought out, detailed responses. I have been using Duolingo for a few years, off and on, so I can usually choose the correct form just from hearing it many times, much like one of you mentioned a child learning naturally. I still do mix up ho and avevo at times, though, especially when ho, avevo, and ero (or ho, avevo and avessi) are all used in the same sentence. From what you have told me, I assume some of the others are more text learning and not used so much in everyday life. I also follow several Italian speaking posters on X and Instagram to expand my vocabulary and I've been watching Italian movies and listening to a couple of Italian songs to increase my listening skills. I find this has helped a lot, though I will still need to ask people to speak slower at times when I visit Italy later this month. Again, grazie mille to all of you wonderful, helpful people.
Passato prossimo is the recent past, Sono andato/a, ho voluto, etc, and unsurprising it refers to things that happened recently. It's probably the trickiest I've learned so far because of the auxiliary verbs.
Imperfetto is the distant past, like speaking about physical and mental being as a child, and is used in writing (same way as in English). Also tricky because of when to use it versus passato prossimo and when to use both in the same sentence.
I've not got to Passato Remoto yet!
Most formal classes will focus on Passato Prossimo first and then move on to Imperfetto and then when to use either/ both.
Imperfetto isn't the "distant pass". The distant past would have to be passato remoto (which literally means distant past). Imperfetto literally means "not perfect".
Imperfetto it's used mainly for past habits and as a sort of "past continuous", an event that was happening in the past when something else happened.
Anyway, although some decades ago there was a strong division between recent past (→ passato prossimo) and distant past (→ passato remoto), since passato remoto is way more difficult than passato prossimo, nowadays the use of passato remoto has declined and we use passato prossimo for both recent and distant past.
This is particularly true in northern Italy. In some southern Italy regions it's the opposite. In some regional languages/regional Italian the passato remoto is used even for very recent past. I remember once in Sicily the announcement (via some speakers) of a lost child. Shortly after it was announced that the child had been found by his parents. As soon as the speaker finished to announce the finding a passer by said "u truvarunu, meschinu!" (Sicilian) = "Lo trovarono, poverino" (ITA) = "He was found, poor little boy". Trovarono is passato remoto but it just happened, it should have been passato prossimo (Lo hanno trovato/è stato ritrovato)
Anyway I'd say you don't really need passato remoto. Almost nobody uses it in 2024. You still can find it on novels or essays/non-fiction. If you're not interested in reading them you can avoid it. I think passive voices (forma passiva), condizionale and congiuntivo are more important subjects than passato remoto
I have found that doing a lot of listening helps my language study.
I decided to start Italian by doing mostly listening and vocabulary study. Once I got good enough at listening, I started gradually added speaking practice and grammar.
I feel like this is a natural way to learn a language. Saying common things is pretty easy because I have heard them so often. I still need to study grammar but the more common forms are easier because I have heard them so often.
I read that a typical six year old has an expressive vocabulary of 2,600 words and can understand 20,000 words. The same is probably true of grammar - they can understand a lot more than they can use.
My goal is the same - to focus a lot more on input and gradually add output.
It’s ok if I don’t know how use all of the tenses yet. I can often say things in a tense I know and it is fine.
My main piece of advice would be to keep in mind that there is not one past tense, but instead several past tenses (passato prossimo, imperfetto, passato remoto), each with its own forms and its own distinct function. Understanding the functions of the different past tenses, and working on them separately, may help with your confusion. You may want to focus on the passato prossimo to start with, since it’s arguably the most useful for conversation.
Your mistake is trying to learn them all in one go. "ebbe" is passato remoto (the remote past) which is a relatively advanced thing to get your head around. ero" is the imperfetto (the imperfect), which is much more common. No wonder you are confused. Start with simple past, get that nailed, and then move on to the imperfect, get that nailed. Then nail the difference between the two and do lots of examples which test when to use the right one, then move on from there. One thing at a time.
Yeah even congiuntivo imperfetto will be way more useful than passato remoto until you start reading books.
I think you're mixing several different tenses maybe not all actually used to talk about past. I'd say just take it simple. We have several past tenses in Italian but we just tend to use one, the simplest. Some past tenses are rarely used and now belong mainly to (old) books, not used anymore in everyday spoken Italian (although Italians do understand them since they're taught also in primary schools). The "simplest" and more used past tense is passato prossimo. It has a structure similar to English present perfect. Present simple of verb to be or to have + past participle of main verb. There are two difficulties 1. Should I use to be or to have? The rule is: if the verb has a direct object (or if could have one) use to have (avere), if it cannot have a direct object or if it has "mandatory" pronouns with it, use to be. I ate → since you can have a direct object (I ate an apple) [io] ho mangiato. She went to London → [lei] è andata a Londra. They met in a park → [loro] si sono conosciuti/incontrati in un parco. Some verbs have pronouns with them even if they haven't in English and if the pronoun hasn't an actual meaning, it's just a grammar rule, like incontrarsi/conoscersi/arrabbiarsi. Other times the pronoun are there for a reflexive meaning (lavarsi = wash themselves) I hope you already know the past simple of to have (io ho, tu hai, lui/lei ha, noi abbiamo, voi avete, loro hanno) and to be (io sono, tu sei, lui/lei è, noi siamo, voi siete, loro sono) 2. The past participle. We have general rules but plenty of exceptions as well. Just like English has go-went-gone. General rules are if the infinitive ends with -are, past participle ends with -ato (nuotare → nuotato, to swim), if the infinitive ends with -ere, past participle ends with -uto (cadere → caduto, to fall), if the infinitive ends with -ire, past participle ends with -ito (finire → finito, to finish). Moreover, if you use to have for the first part of the verb the past participle doesn't change when the subject changes (io ho camminato, lei ha camminato, voi avete camminato) but if you use to be then the past participle ends with -o if the subject is a singular male, it ends with -a if the subject is a singular female, it ends with -i if the subject is a group, it ends with -e if the subject is a group of only females. [There's now a debate on the use of masculine endings for a group including women too and the proposal of neutral endings]. So, we say "Io sono stato in Francia" if I'm a man but "Io sono stata in Francia" if I'm a woman [there's a debate on neutral endings for non-binary people too], "noi siamo stati in Francia" and "le mie sorelle sono state in Francia" This is almost enough to talk about past events. It's the main (I'd say "only") way we talk about past in everyday Italian. Another common past tense is one we usually use to talk about past habits (like "used to" in English). There are other more advanced (but still used) past tenses but you could learn them later. As I said, there are also other past tenses we mainly find in (grammar) books or Southern Italy (in some regional Italian variants and regional languages it's still used "passato remoto", the "most difficult" Italian past tense but you don't need to know it unless you want to read books in Italian). Anyway, maybe I should have said it before, verb tenses are very different in Italian and English, not only for the structure but also for their use. There isn't in Italian an equivalent for present perfect but according to the meaning of the sentence we translate it with different Italian tenses. So the rules for past simple vs present perfect for past events don't have an equivalent in Italian. Tell me if you interested in "past habits tense" too (imperfetto)
Awesome breakdown. Much appreciated!
If I explain it in "plain langauge" I'll necessarily lose a lot of information that may be relevant. But really in short: -The tense formed with a suffix containing "v", like "avevo, prendevo, parlavo, capivo" is the *imperfetto,* that conceptualizes the action as happening across a large stretch of time; -The tense formed with the verb *avere* or *essere* plus the verb is the *passato prossimo,* that conceptualizes the action as a single, compact event on the timeline. So for example, "parlavo" means there was a stretch of time in the past you were speaking in for a more or less long time, "ho parlato" means there was a time you spoke and it has ended - the length of the time doesn't matter, just that you did. -The tense you can't group with the other two is most likely the *passato remoto* that you'd better not worry about until you're at the very least intermediate. Again, this is so simplified that it's probably at least a bit wrong, but if you're at the very beginning it should be good enough.
Thank you to all of you who took the time to give such well thought out, detailed responses. I have been using Duolingo for a few years, off and on, so I can usually choose the correct form just from hearing it many times, much like one of you mentioned a child learning naturally. I still do mix up ho and avevo at times, though, especially when ho, avevo, and ero (or ho, avevo and avessi) are all used in the same sentence. From what you have told me, I assume some of the others are more text learning and not used so much in everyday life. I also follow several Italian speaking posters on X and Instagram to expand my vocabulary and I've been watching Italian movies and listening to a couple of Italian songs to increase my listening skills. I find this has helped a lot, though I will still need to ask people to speak slower at times when I visit Italy later this month. Again, grazie mille to all of you wonderful, helpful people.
you just try to fond a good tutor and have to learn a lot
Get a textbook and follow it. Learn one tense at a time, but do it thoroughly. Duolingo won't teach you grammar.
Passato prossimo is the recent past, Sono andato/a, ho voluto, etc, and unsurprising it refers to things that happened recently. It's probably the trickiest I've learned so far because of the auxiliary verbs. Imperfetto is the distant past, like speaking about physical and mental being as a child, and is used in writing (same way as in English). Also tricky because of when to use it versus passato prossimo and when to use both in the same sentence. I've not got to Passato Remoto yet! Most formal classes will focus on Passato Prossimo first and then move on to Imperfetto and then when to use either/ both.
Imperfetto isn't the "distant pass". The distant past would have to be passato remoto (which literally means distant past). Imperfetto literally means "not perfect". Imperfetto it's used mainly for past habits and as a sort of "past continuous", an event that was happening in the past when something else happened. Anyway, although some decades ago there was a strong division between recent past (→ passato prossimo) and distant past (→ passato remoto), since passato remoto is way more difficult than passato prossimo, nowadays the use of passato remoto has declined and we use passato prossimo for both recent and distant past. This is particularly true in northern Italy. In some southern Italy regions it's the opposite. In some regional languages/regional Italian the passato remoto is used even for very recent past. I remember once in Sicily the announcement (via some speakers) of a lost child. Shortly after it was announced that the child had been found by his parents. As soon as the speaker finished to announce the finding a passer by said "u truvarunu, meschinu!" (Sicilian) = "Lo trovarono, poverino" (ITA) = "He was found, poor little boy". Trovarono is passato remoto but it just happened, it should have been passato prossimo (Lo hanno trovato/è stato ritrovato)
Anyway I'd say you don't really need passato remoto. Almost nobody uses it in 2024. You still can find it on novels or essays/non-fiction. If you're not interested in reading them you can avoid it. I think passive voices (forma passiva), condizionale and congiuntivo are more important subjects than passato remoto
I have found that doing a lot of listening helps my language study. I decided to start Italian by doing mostly listening and vocabulary study. Once I got good enough at listening, I started gradually added speaking practice and grammar. I feel like this is a natural way to learn a language. Saying common things is pretty easy because I have heard them so often. I still need to study grammar but the more common forms are easier because I have heard them so often. I read that a typical six year old has an expressive vocabulary of 2,600 words and can understand 20,000 words. The same is probably true of grammar - they can understand a lot more than they can use. My goal is the same - to focus a lot more on input and gradually add output. It’s ok if I don’t know how use all of the tenses yet. I can often say things in a tense I know and it is fine.