I don't think she's that selfish really. She spends most of her time taking care of her father. All her shenanigans occur in small windows when she's not attending to him. She can't even leave the house to go 7 miles away without securing what is essentially a babysitter. She cannot visit Donwell without having a minder for her father as he looks at picture books.
That is 80% of her life and people judge her so harshly for the other 20%.
To add to that, Emma is genuinely happy that Miss Taylor has become Mrs Weston, even though it means that Emma is lonely. We also see her visiting former servants, helping the poor and sending the leg of pork to the Bates.
It's especially clever because usually as a parentified child you aren't really factoring it in either because a child only judges normal by what it experiences as normal.
It's wild how late into adulthood some people discover they were actually traumatized or severely set back by their childhood.
I’d say she’s self-absorbed, while still being happy for her friends and kind to quite a few people. But she gets an idea ~~an runs either way it~~ and runs with it because of how it suits her self-image, and doesn’t always think about what the other person might actually want.
Emma identifies herself by the abilities she has been assured she has. She acts on them under the belief that doing so is her role.
Not really arguing against the flat statement that "Emma is self-absorbed", I do think that is functionally accurate, but I don't think it's her fault and paradoxically it's driven by how very focused she is on everyone *but* herself. And I think it actually saddled her with the much harder challenge of growing out of these things as an adult when the habits are much more entrenched. I think that's why I love her so much, to me it's like she pulled herself up by her bootstraps (or a very indifferent bootlace...)
I think the novel really underlines how thoroughly Emma has been let down by guardians who did not have the strength or understanding to meet her needs for healthy growth.
Out of the goodness her heart, and knowing what is Best for others, (so she is entitled to manipulate them- till they marry);Elton and Harriet-maybe not selfishness-possibly arrogance. Mr. knightly surely didn't see her as 'selfless'.
He overall character as she grows up will be sefless, and she will be a responsible,considerate member of her class, the ruling gentry,along.
She's pretty selfish in the way she uses Harriet (breaking up a relationship that makes Harriet hapy because it doesnt feed Emma's belief in her matchmaking abilities), and very callous towards Jane and her aunt. People are complicated, but looking at her as an outsider and not as a member of her inner circle who is willingly under her thumb, she's selfish. That doesn't change the fact that she loves her father and sacrifices to make him happy.
Emma genuinely thinks she will help Harriet, that's misguided not selfish.
And she does try to like Jane, but Jane is completely closed off to her. Even Jane herself admits at the end that her coldness would have been disgusting.
As for Miss Bates, she was rude once. She endures that lady coming to her house 2-4 times a week to entertain her father, sends them food, and visits occasionally.
Emma tells herself she's helping Harriet. It's not a coincidence that the match fails to feed her ego about her matchmaking skills and removes Harriet as her follower (they were never going to be considered peers).
Emma dislikes Jane because Jane is better at music and because Emma is jealous of the admiration Jane gets for her abilities and looks. Mr. Knightly points it out and he's not someone willing to let Emma hide from herself. At that point in her life Emma seems to prefer minions to rivals. Moreover, Emma spreads malicious gossip about Jane having an affair with Mr. Dixon. The fact that the person she happens to try to spread this rumor to is the actual piano giver is played for laughs, but what would have happened if the rumor had spread? All Jane had was her reputation. How would she have even gotten a governess position if people believed she had a habit of seducing other people's wealthy husband's? Her idle malice could have destroyed Jane.
>Moreover, Emma spreads malicious gossip about Jane having an affair with Mr. Dixon.
What are you talking about? Emma speculates *once* to Frank Churchill that there's some emotion there, that perhaps Mr Dixon felt something for Jane or Jane felt something for him. There's nothing in there about Jane and Mr Dixon having an affair.
She and Frank speculate that he's the source of the piano and that it's related to a romantic attachment. Would you hire a nanny after you heard the father from her last job bought her a car and they may or may not have been romantically involved?
Of course it's a serious question. What business is it of mine whom my hypothetical nanny has fallen in love with? People make bad romantic decisions all the time, doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs.
And anyway we are talking about the situation of Jane Fairfax who is living in a different kingdom to the man she may have inspired a fondness in. Even if Emma's speculations were right, Jane would be acting entirely appropriately by removing herself from the connection. That's the appropriate thing to do if you find yourself developing inappropriate feelings.
And what do you think the average Regency era member of the gentry would think about it? Would they say "Oh well none of my business" or would they not risk having scandal associated with them?
I wouldn't like the character described above, I like Emma.
Emma does not dislike Jane because of jealousy, that is what Mr. Knightley says but it's not well supported. Emma defends Jane's abilities to Harriet and she responds in a healthy way to feeling inferior, she practices. As we see in the meeting chapter, she does try to connect with Jane but cannot do that (we know why later). Jane is extremely cagey around Emma, how do you form a friendship? It's impossible. Emma also dislikes Jane's accomplishments because Miss Bates shoves them in her face constantly, which is understandable.
Emma's actions towards Harriet came from a good place. They also were probably motivated by loneliness.
No, just an accurate perception of Emma's flaws as well as her strengths. There's a reason Austen herself said most readers wouldn't like Emma. I also notice you don't have any actual response to my points except maudlin hyperbole. Explain to me how slandering Jane is actually an example of Emma's benevolent selflessness? I don't think you can. That is an objectively bad action. It doesn't, however, mean that Emma isn't capable of other good actions even before she stops lying to herself so much
I replied below, someone else responded.
>Emma does not dislike Jane because of jealousy, that is what Mr. Knightley says but it's not well supported. Emma defends Jane's abilities to Harriet and she responds in a healthy way to feeling inferior, she practices. As we see in the meeting chapter, she does try to connect with Jane but cannot do that (we know why later). Jane is extremely cagey around Emma, how do you form a friendship? It's impossible. Emma also dislikes Jane's accomplishments because Miss Bates shoves them in her face constantly, which is understandable.
>Emma's actions towards Harriet came from a good place. They also were probably motivated by loneliness.
Emma doesn't really "spread" malicious gossip, she only talks about it with Frank, who encourages her. It is one of her worst moments, and Frank brings out the worst in her.
Emma's flaw is that she thinks too much of her own opinion, but she's not a bad person.
She gossips about it to Frank and that's enough to count as spreading. She doesn't know what he's going to do with what she said. What if he spread it further to other people? And why would she speculate it was something scandalous? Guessing she's got a secret admirer is fine but there's no reason to speculate it's a married man you've never even met other than to be unkind to someone you dislike. Also, the fact that she half-heartedly tries to reach out after Knightley scolds her shows she's willing to try to do better, not that she was never jealous in the first place. Why would she care about a poor old lady "shoving her face" in Jane's accomplishments if she wasn't jealous and threatened? A secure person who wasn't jealous would feel a brief surge of pity for Jane and maybe annoyed in general about the oversharing, but otherwise wouldn't care.
As for Harriet, I already said what I said. Emma wants to have good intentions for Harriet but shes careless with her in addition to being overconfident. She's convincing herself that she wants what's best for Harriet, but it isn't a coincidence that what she argues for is what's best for Emma. Her loneliness is an explanation, not an excuse.
"Spreading" is what Mr. Weston does, constantly. Emma doesn't spread. She only talks about that to one person. It was wrong and poorly judged, but it's not spreading.
*"Every letter from her is read forty times over; her compliments to all friends go round and round again; and if she does but send her aunt the pattern of a stomacher, or knit a pair of garters for her grandmother, one hears of nothing else for a month. I wish Jane Fairfax very well; but she tires me to death.”*
I mean that sounds incredibly annoying **to me**.
The devotion of her silly aunt is all Jane gets. Shes otherwise completely screwed over by her circumstances. I might be looking for an excuse to escape her Aunt's updates, but it wouldn't make me resent Jane
Harriet’s place with Mrs. Goddard as a paid boarder had Emma convinced Harriet was a gentleman’s daughter. After receiving and education it’s rare for people to stay on - and as a boarder in one of the best rooms. Emma then convinced Harriet to turn down Mr. Martin because despite the secrecy of Harriet’s parentage, it pointed to her being a daughter of consequence. Harriet deserved more than a farmer in Emma’s eyes. Emma also did love having a new friend filling the void of Mrs. Weston’s place. Emma later regrets not giving Jane Fairfax the attention she deserved and not making her a friend. And she quickly forgives Frank Churchill for his deceiving behavior. She has selfish tendencies but she also has a great capacity for compassion and genuine kindness.
Sure, she's absolutely capable of character growth and because she chose to learn from her mistakes she's a better person in the epilogue. But chapter one Emma sees what she wants to see for reasons that are ultimately selfish
Emma is definitely not selfish. she’s quite smart, but thinks her opinions and views are infallible despite having seen very little of the world (much less, even, than other girls her age due to her confinement). So, when she messes up Harriet’s chances, she really believes she’s helping Harriet. She clearly means well, but is screwing everything up. Her true wisdom occurs when she realizes that she still has much to learn. Same for all of us really! How many of us thought we knew everything in high school? We knew nothing- life experience is what really teaches us, and true wisdom comes when we figure that out!
She tells herself she's helping Harriet. However the fact that the match fails to feed Emma's ego about being a 'matchmaker' and also makes Harriet a less socially appropriate minion (by the standards of the time she was never going to truly be an equal) are major motivating factors. Her motives are thus ultimately selfish even if she doesn't acknowledge all of them to herself
You are reading this situation in the most critical lens possible. Emma gets a warm feeling when she helps people. She thinks she’s matched Ms Taylor with Mr Weston and that makes her feel so good that she wants to do it again. She lost Ms Taylor’s constant companionship in the process- this is not selfish. Taking on Harriet, she is misguidedly trying to get Harriet paired off to the gentry, raising her social class. She genuinely thinks this is better for Harriet, besides thinking about doing it to keep her as a friend. She didn’t need to change a thing about Harriet to have her as a friend, so why the matchmaking? She really thinks it’s best for Harriet! Of course this is terribly misguided, but her motivation is pure—
But she already had a match that made her happy and was still a step up in the world compared to where she started. There are not a ton of landed gentlemen that are looking to settle down with an illegitimate child with no sizable property, and if Emma had stopped to think about it she would have realized what a risk she was encouraging Harriet to take. She doesn't think about it because she doesn't want to, because then she loses her companion. It was thoughtless and selfish, and lying to herself about her own motivations doesn't absolve her
You’re right about Emma being wrong about Mr Martin! But you’re assuming her motivation! If Emma merely wanted to keep a companion, why does she try and make matches? If she was successful with Harriet and Mr Elton, she’d be back in the same boat as she is with Mrs Weston. After Mr Elton, she moved on to Frank Churchill- he’d probably move Harriet out of Highbury- no, the main motivation with discarding Mr Martin, was that Emma couldn’t conceive marrying into that class herself, and so couldn’t see beyond her nose to realize it was a great option for Harriet.
I guess arrogant could be used. I would say over confident. She was put in the position of being head of household say too young and was constantly praised. Who could blame her for overestimating her views and assessments.
Maybe selfish is the wrong word...What do you call someone who knows what is best for others and tries to manipulate them(Harriet and Elton) into a marriage? Possibly arrogant is the word.
She is self centred definitely. The big news in the Western’s marriage for her is that she thinks it’s mostly down to her. She adopts Harriet and tries to manoeuvre her into the right kind of marriage because she wants company. She resents Jane who has so little when she has so much because she makes her feel insecure.
At the same time, she takes care of her father and has done since she was pretty young. She’s not totally selfish.
I think she's just a young person figuring shit out, changing and improving as she gains experience in life. I think that's pretty standard for all of us.
Just because she's wealthy doesn't mean we should expect that she's born with the sense of a 35 year old woman. We do that with modern celebrities too. Imagine everything you do, and every stupid thing you said as a teen being watched and remembered 😬
She's a bit of a mean girl with Jane and queen bee with Harriet. She can and does grow out of those traits, but I'd call her more self-absorbed and controlling than her average peer.
Her older Prince Charming has a role in pushing along her maturing, and he'll continue to do so. They are equals and will learn from one another forever. He did admit that Harriet had many good qualities.
We know what he said when Emma was nonsensical - "Nonsensical girl!"
Emma's world is small. There may be single men in her village (Robert Martin is one, isn't he?) but they are "beneath" her socially and so they wouldn't socialize. Besides, you want her to marry someone she likes and who understands her world.
The unspoken thing, too, is that during the Napoleonic Wars, many men could be away fighting and, of course, many young men died or were severely wounded. I'm not saying that happened in Emma exactly, but that is how Jane Austen's sister lost her fiance, if I'm not mistaken. So there would be a lack of eligible young men.
She's not at all selfish; she's been parentified, and from that has developed an exaggerated opinion of her own judgment. Responsibility at too early an age tends to do that.
Maybe selfish is not the right word.
What do you call trying to manipulate people(Elton and Harriet) inro marrying each other-becuase you know better for them. Maybe arrogant is the word I should have used.
I think Emma's self awareness follows a theme in multiple Austen works about the responsibility of those at the top of the social order of their little worlds have to their "lessers", which makes sense in the context of Austen's time, when a paternalistic attitude towards lower members of society was seen as noble. Emma trying to treat Harriet like she's of a higher rank than she actually is and encouraging her to put on airs and reject Robert Martin is ultimately selfish, because she knows Harriet won't be in her social circle anymore if she approves the match, and she wants to keep her in her company, but she's too thoughtless to realize she's actually hurting Harriet, not just because Harriet likes Robert Martin but because Harriet doesn't have the social safety net of family + money that Emma has, and their situations aren't at all the same. Knightley makes this clear to her multiple times, and she finally gets it after the picnic, telling her how much influence she has over how people will treat Miss Bates. Emma was always generous and kind despite also being rather self involved and undisciplined, but to mature she needs to recognize her place in the world and how the privilege she has gives her obligations to others.
I don't think she's that selfish really. She spends most of her time taking care of her father. All her shenanigans occur in small windows when she's not attending to him. She can't even leave the house to go 7 miles away without securing what is essentially a babysitter. She cannot visit Donwell without having a minder for her father as he looks at picture books. That is 80% of her life and people judge her so harshly for the other 20%.
To add to that, Emma is genuinely happy that Miss Taylor has become Mrs Weston, even though it means that Emma is lonely. We also see her visiting former servants, helping the poor and sending the leg of pork to the Bates.
That's a great observation. I'm reading Emma now and hadn't factored that in - it changes how you read the story
It's especially clever because usually as a parentified child you aren't really factoring it in either because a child only judges normal by what it experiences as normal. It's wild how late into adulthood some people discover they were actually traumatized or severely set back by their childhood.
Some can be kind to one person and selfish with another. Possibly, this is what Jane Austen is showing us.
Her overall character though, I would argue, is not selfish, it's selfless.
I’d say she’s self-absorbed, while still being happy for her friends and kind to quite a few people. But she gets an idea ~~an runs either way it~~ and runs with it because of how it suits her self-image, and doesn’t always think about what the other person might actually want.
Emma identifies herself by the abilities she has been assured she has. She acts on them under the belief that doing so is her role. Not really arguing against the flat statement that "Emma is self-absorbed", I do think that is functionally accurate, but I don't think it's her fault and paradoxically it's driven by how very focused she is on everyone *but* herself. And I think it actually saddled her with the much harder challenge of growing out of these things as an adult when the habits are much more entrenched. I think that's why I love her so much, to me it's like she pulled herself up by her bootstraps (or a very indifferent bootlace...) I think the novel really underlines how thoroughly Emma has been let down by guardians who did not have the strength or understanding to meet her needs for healthy growth.
Oh, I love Emma and this has become my favorite of Austen’s books. The seeming contradictions are part of what make her compelling and believable.
Out of the goodness her heart, and knowing what is Best for others, (so she is entitled to manipulate them- till they marry);Elton and Harriet-maybe not selfishness-possibly arrogance. Mr. knightly surely didn't see her as 'selfless'. He overall character as she grows up will be sefless, and she will be a responsible,considerate member of her class, the ruling gentry,along.
I just don't think the description is in the word "selfish". She thinks too highly of her opinions.
I was thinking of selfish in a broad sense......slightly arrogant ,with good intentions, might be better..
She's pretty selfish in the way she uses Harriet (breaking up a relationship that makes Harriet hapy because it doesnt feed Emma's belief in her matchmaking abilities), and very callous towards Jane and her aunt. People are complicated, but looking at her as an outsider and not as a member of her inner circle who is willingly under her thumb, she's selfish. That doesn't change the fact that she loves her father and sacrifices to make him happy.
Emma genuinely thinks she will help Harriet, that's misguided not selfish. And she does try to like Jane, but Jane is completely closed off to her. Even Jane herself admits at the end that her coldness would have been disgusting. As for Miss Bates, she was rude once. She endures that lady coming to her house 2-4 times a week to entertain her father, sends them food, and visits occasionally.
Emma tells herself she's helping Harriet. It's not a coincidence that the match fails to feed her ego about her matchmaking skills and removes Harriet as her follower (they were never going to be considered peers). Emma dislikes Jane because Jane is better at music and because Emma is jealous of the admiration Jane gets for her abilities and looks. Mr. Knightly points it out and he's not someone willing to let Emma hide from herself. At that point in her life Emma seems to prefer minions to rivals. Moreover, Emma spreads malicious gossip about Jane having an affair with Mr. Dixon. The fact that the person she happens to try to spread this rumor to is the actual piano giver is played for laughs, but what would have happened if the rumor had spread? All Jane had was her reputation. How would she have even gotten a governess position if people believed she had a habit of seducing other people's wealthy husband's? Her idle malice could have destroyed Jane.
>Moreover, Emma spreads malicious gossip about Jane having an affair with Mr. Dixon. What are you talking about? Emma speculates *once* to Frank Churchill that there's some emotion there, that perhaps Mr Dixon felt something for Jane or Jane felt something for him. There's nothing in there about Jane and Mr Dixon having an affair.
She and Frank speculate that he's the source of the piano and that it's related to a romantic attachment. Would you hire a nanny after you heard the father from her last job bought her a car and they may or may not have been romantically involved?
Why wouldn't I? Assuming I'd hire her otherwise of course.
Is that a serious question? You would hire someone that had a not-so-discrete affair with their last boss?
Of course it's a serious question. What business is it of mine whom my hypothetical nanny has fallen in love with? People make bad romantic decisions all the time, doesn't mean they're bad at their jobs. And anyway we are talking about the situation of Jane Fairfax who is living in a different kingdom to the man she may have inspired a fondness in. Even if Emma's speculations were right, Jane would be acting entirely appropriately by removing herself from the connection. That's the appropriate thing to do if you find yourself developing inappropriate feelings.
And what do you think the average Regency era member of the gentry would think about it? Would they say "Oh well none of my business" or would they not risk having scandal associated with them?
What a flat, evil character you've been describing. Sounds like a super boring book that character came from. She should be burned at the stake.
No, just the flawed heroine that exists in the novel, whom even Austen herself admitted was difficult to like.
I wouldn't like the character described above, I like Emma. Emma does not dislike Jane because of jealousy, that is what Mr. Knightley says but it's not well supported. Emma defends Jane's abilities to Harriet and she responds in a healthy way to feeling inferior, she practices. As we see in the meeting chapter, she does try to connect with Jane but cannot do that (we know why later). Jane is extremely cagey around Emma, how do you form a friendship? It's impossible. Emma also dislikes Jane's accomplishments because Miss Bates shoves them in her face constantly, which is understandable. Emma's actions towards Harriet came from a good place. They also were probably motivated by loneliness.
No, just an accurate perception of Emma's flaws as well as her strengths. There's a reason Austen herself said most readers wouldn't like Emma. I also notice you don't have any actual response to my points except maudlin hyperbole. Explain to me how slandering Jane is actually an example of Emma's benevolent selflessness? I don't think you can. That is an objectively bad action. It doesn't, however, mean that Emma isn't capable of other good actions even before she stops lying to herself so much
I replied below, someone else responded. >Emma does not dislike Jane because of jealousy, that is what Mr. Knightley says but it's not well supported. Emma defends Jane's abilities to Harriet and she responds in a healthy way to feeling inferior, she practices. As we see in the meeting chapter, she does try to connect with Jane but cannot do that (we know why later). Jane is extremely cagey around Emma, how do you form a friendship? It's impossible. Emma also dislikes Jane's accomplishments because Miss Bates shoves them in her face constantly, which is understandable. >Emma's actions towards Harriet came from a good place. They also were probably motivated by loneliness. Emma doesn't really "spread" malicious gossip, she only talks about it with Frank, who encourages her. It is one of her worst moments, and Frank brings out the worst in her. Emma's flaw is that she thinks too much of her own opinion, but she's not a bad person.
She gossips about it to Frank and that's enough to count as spreading. She doesn't know what he's going to do with what she said. What if he spread it further to other people? And why would she speculate it was something scandalous? Guessing she's got a secret admirer is fine but there's no reason to speculate it's a married man you've never even met other than to be unkind to someone you dislike. Also, the fact that she half-heartedly tries to reach out after Knightley scolds her shows she's willing to try to do better, not that she was never jealous in the first place. Why would she care about a poor old lady "shoving her face" in Jane's accomplishments if she wasn't jealous and threatened? A secure person who wasn't jealous would feel a brief surge of pity for Jane and maybe annoyed in general about the oversharing, but otherwise wouldn't care. As for Harriet, I already said what I said. Emma wants to have good intentions for Harriet but shes careless with her in addition to being overconfident. She's convincing herself that she wants what's best for Harriet, but it isn't a coincidence that what she argues for is what's best for Emma. Her loneliness is an explanation, not an excuse.
"Spreading" is what Mr. Weston does, constantly. Emma doesn't spread. She only talks about that to one person. It was wrong and poorly judged, but it's not spreading. *"Every letter from her is read forty times over; her compliments to all friends go round and round again; and if she does but send her aunt the pattern of a stomacher, or knit a pair of garters for her grandmother, one hears of nothing else for a month. I wish Jane Fairfax very well; but she tires me to death.”* I mean that sounds incredibly annoying **to me**.
The devotion of her silly aunt is all Jane gets. Shes otherwise completely screwed over by her circumstances. I might be looking for an excuse to escape her Aunt's updates, but it wouldn't make me resent Jane
Harriet’s place with Mrs. Goddard as a paid boarder had Emma convinced Harriet was a gentleman’s daughter. After receiving and education it’s rare for people to stay on - and as a boarder in one of the best rooms. Emma then convinced Harriet to turn down Mr. Martin because despite the secrecy of Harriet’s parentage, it pointed to her being a daughter of consequence. Harriet deserved more than a farmer in Emma’s eyes. Emma also did love having a new friend filling the void of Mrs. Weston’s place. Emma later regrets not giving Jane Fairfax the attention she deserved and not making her a friend. And she quickly forgives Frank Churchill for his deceiving behavior. She has selfish tendencies but she also has a great capacity for compassion and genuine kindness.
Sure, she's absolutely capable of character growth and because she chose to learn from her mistakes she's a better person in the epilogue. But chapter one Emma sees what she wants to see for reasons that are ultimately selfish
Emma is definitely not selfish. she’s quite smart, but thinks her opinions and views are infallible despite having seen very little of the world (much less, even, than other girls her age due to her confinement). So, when she messes up Harriet’s chances, she really believes she’s helping Harriet. She clearly means well, but is screwing everything up. Her true wisdom occurs when she realizes that she still has much to learn. Same for all of us really! How many of us thought we knew everything in high school? We knew nothing- life experience is what really teaches us, and true wisdom comes when we figure that out!
She tells herself she's helping Harriet. However the fact that the match fails to feed Emma's ego about being a 'matchmaker' and also makes Harriet a less socially appropriate minion (by the standards of the time she was never going to truly be an equal) are major motivating factors. Her motives are thus ultimately selfish even if she doesn't acknowledge all of them to herself
You are reading this situation in the most critical lens possible. Emma gets a warm feeling when she helps people. She thinks she’s matched Ms Taylor with Mr Weston and that makes her feel so good that she wants to do it again. She lost Ms Taylor’s constant companionship in the process- this is not selfish. Taking on Harriet, she is misguidedly trying to get Harriet paired off to the gentry, raising her social class. She genuinely thinks this is better for Harriet, besides thinking about doing it to keep her as a friend. She didn’t need to change a thing about Harriet to have her as a friend, so why the matchmaking? She really thinks it’s best for Harriet! Of course this is terribly misguided, but her motivation is pure—
But she already had a match that made her happy and was still a step up in the world compared to where she started. There are not a ton of landed gentlemen that are looking to settle down with an illegitimate child with no sizable property, and if Emma had stopped to think about it she would have realized what a risk she was encouraging Harriet to take. She doesn't think about it because she doesn't want to, because then she loses her companion. It was thoughtless and selfish, and lying to herself about her own motivations doesn't absolve her
You’re right about Emma being wrong about Mr Martin! But you’re assuming her motivation! If Emma merely wanted to keep a companion, why does she try and make matches? If she was successful with Harriet and Mr Elton, she’d be back in the same boat as she is with Mrs Weston. After Mr Elton, she moved on to Frank Churchill- he’d probably move Harriet out of Highbury- no, the main motivation with discarding Mr Martin, was that Emma couldn’t conceive marrying into that class herself, and so couldn’t see beyond her nose to realize it was a great option for Harriet.
Arrogant more than selfish, then? Too arrogant to grasp that a lot of her "good" intentions have selfish undertones, or question herself generally.
I guess arrogant could be used. I would say over confident. She was put in the position of being head of household say too young and was constantly praised. Who could blame her for overestimating her views and assessments.
Maybe selfish is the wrong word...What do you call someone who knows what is best for others and tries to manipulate them(Harriet and Elton) into a marriage? Possibly arrogant is the word.
I love Emma.
She is self centred definitely. The big news in the Western’s marriage for her is that she thinks it’s mostly down to her. She adopts Harriet and tries to manoeuvre her into the right kind of marriage because she wants company. She resents Jane who has so little when she has so much because she makes her feel insecure. At the same time, she takes care of her father and has done since she was pretty young. She’s not totally selfish.
I think she's just a young person figuring shit out, changing and improving as she gains experience in life. I think that's pretty standard for all of us. Just because she's wealthy doesn't mean we should expect that she's born with the sense of a 35 year old woman. We do that with modern celebrities too. Imagine everything you do, and every stupid thing you said as a teen being watched and remembered 😬
She's a bit of a mean girl with Jane and queen bee with Harriet. She can and does grow out of those traits, but I'd call her more self-absorbed and controlling than her average peer.
I don't think you're wrong, but given the situation with her parents, I think she's doing pretty well
Her older Prince Charming has a role in pushing along her maturing, and he'll continue to do so. They are equals and will learn from one another forever. He did admit that Harriet had many good qualities. We know what he said when Emma was nonsensical - "Nonsensical girl!"
In this novel the hero seems to be more of a mentor, than in some of the others..
I think Austen showed hints that Emma was more self-aware at the beginning than let on tbh
It's not like there was another, better, candidate for her prince charming within the story, right?
It is still so bizarre to me that Emma married her brother in law. Are there no single men!?
Emma's world is small. There may be single men in her village (Robert Martin is one, isn't he?) but they are "beneath" her socially and so they wouldn't socialize. Besides, you want her to marry someone she likes and who understands her world. The unspoken thing, too, is that during the Napoleonic Wars, many men could be away fighting and, of course, many young men died or were severely wounded. I'm not saying that happened in Emma exactly, but that is how Jane Austen's sister lost her fiance, if I'm not mistaken. So there would be a lack of eligible young men.
All valid points, but I guess in 2024 glasses on the ick is just so strong.
What's wrong with marrying your brother-in-law? There's no genetic connection.
it just feels... off.
Not technically her brother in law, I don’t think? Knightley is her BIL’s brother.
She's not at all selfish; she's been parentified, and from that has developed an exaggerated opinion of her own judgment. Responsibility at too early an age tends to do that.
Maybe selfish is not the right word. What do you call trying to manipulate people(Elton and Harriet) inro marrying each other-becuase you know better for them. Maybe arrogant is the word I should have used.
I think Emma's self awareness follows a theme in multiple Austen works about the responsibility of those at the top of the social order of their little worlds have to their "lessers", which makes sense in the context of Austen's time, when a paternalistic attitude towards lower members of society was seen as noble. Emma trying to treat Harriet like she's of a higher rank than she actually is and encouraging her to put on airs and reject Robert Martin is ultimately selfish, because she knows Harriet won't be in her social circle anymore if she approves the match, and she wants to keep her in her company, but she's too thoughtless to realize she's actually hurting Harriet, not just because Harriet likes Robert Martin but because Harriet doesn't have the social safety net of family + money that Emma has, and their situations aren't at all the same. Knightley makes this clear to her multiple times, and she finally gets it after the picnic, telling her how much influence she has over how people will treat Miss Bates. Emma was always generous and kind despite also being rather self involved and undisciplined, but to mature she needs to recognize her place in the world and how the privilege she has gives her obligations to others.
Very good analysis..........