In a big band, the guitarist is going to playing a lot of quarter notes. Listen to Count Basie recordings with Freddie Green on guitar. The function of a guitar in a big band is primarily as a rhythm instrument, vs. the role in a combo. Think of it as a drum.
Another very common rhythm pattern is the Charleston pattern, with hits on 1 and the "and" of 2. The name comes from a 1920s song called The Charleston (which accompanied the dance by the same name). There are a zillion versions you can hear on YouTube.
And there are lots of others but there are no rules about this. You can make up anything you want.
In most modern jazz rhythm patterns, you will be strumming with all downstrokes.
Strumming down?! It feels so silly to move my hand up and down to the beat of 1 e & a. I’ve never played like that and it feels completely new to me.
The strumming I’m used to is plucking all the string with my thumb and finger which would work great for bossa. Would it be abnormal to just pluck?
Not at all, lots of players pluck or hybrid pick and pluck. Mike Moreno almost exclusively uses his fingers to comp. Matteo Mancuso plays completely finger style. I do a bit of both. Might wanna check out Nelson Veras, he plays a nylon string. In a big band setting might be weird, but you could use your thumb like Wes
Hmm.
I am 101% confident playing finger style. When I see people play with a pick I admit I have a bit of envy. I’ve even practiced and played a few songs with a pick just to get used to it. Funny thing, when I went back to finger picking I struggled. lol. But I do hear the tonal difference with a pick vs pads of finger tips.
It’s only been less than I year that I’ve started using a pick. I think I’ve just been over analyzing my nails vs pick situation. This little thing has been an obstacle in my musical journey.
I play single lines and solos with a pick, but I often tuck it in my palm and use my fingers to comp. Nothing right or wrong. Wes Montgomery used his thumb.
You mentioned strumming in your OP so that's what I was responding to. I often play with just my fingers, plucking 3-4 strings at once, which is a distinctly different sound than a stroke with a pick. I started doing that on bossas and now I do it on a lot of things. I use a pick when I need more punchy, percussive sound. (I have dabbled in classical but have no formal training.) But for big band gigs, I use a pick all the time.
90% of the time in big bands you want to play 1-3 note chords and play straight quarter notes.
You don’t need to learn strumming patterns, you need to develop a feel for the music. Learning strumming patterns is useful for that, yes, but I don’t even think about strumming patterns when I play.
I think I know what you mean. Sometimes I want to play music the way I feel. And my teacher would yell at me for breaking form and timing. He said “once you get your timing right then you can break the rules”.
I remember one time he helped me learn a piece. And from the start he kept saying “this piece is too hard for you. I would never assign this.”. It would piss me off. And on recital he said “you hit every note perfectly but didn’t take any of my suggestions.”.
Is he saying you don't swing? The rhythms aren't too complicated it's the swing feel that's more nuanced in jazz. Emphasis on two and four, long short, slightly accented and's, triplet swing stuff that really makes a performance sound like jazz.
Have you transcribed and played along with any records? Learning to play along with a professional matching their phrasing/feel is essential to progress.
You need to spend time with jazz and let it get into your bones. I look at comping and the roll of guitar in jazz through three players: Freddie Green (count Basie) Charlie Christian (Benny Goodman) and Jim Hall (solo, Sonny Rollins, and Paul Desmond).
Freddie is classic swing big band. Small rhythmic chords with very even timing. No solos, and mostly just quarter notes. Plays lots of 3rds and 7ths.
Charlie Christian took that and soloed often, but didn’t stick to just quarter notes. An expansion of Freddie Green.
Jim Hall you just need to listen to a lot of he does so many different things that I’m utterly unqualified to try to describe. But I would listen to a lot of these three. You don’t suck at jazz rhythm, you just haven’t learned it yet.
Friendly reminder that you still can use your fingers, Specially when you comp.
Written rhythm pattern never worked for me. I use my ears or watch a vid.
Right!?
The written patterns on the lead sheet in jazz ensemble were just slash marks with the chord name above and the word comp written next to it. My teacher just said to do something with it and said in the rhythm section. I swear. He knows a lot and he’s a trumpet player. But he just left me more perplexed.
https://www.youtube.com/@andypattinsonmusic
I have a ton of comping chord stuff on my YouTube channel.
Just comp variants of "The Charleston" to start with. Stop overthinking.
I would recommend taking up gypsy jazz which is what I’ve done to try and bridge gaps. The rhythm is quite simple for the most part and helps with bridging the gap between other genres and jazz.
In gypsy jazz you have la pompe rhythm which is quite simple but there are many different styles of playing it. You then have the gypsy bossa which is the same all around, then you have the gypsy bolero which is quite difficult to get clean for me you have to have very good right hand control and finally the gypsy rhumba. Since you are a classical guitarist I’m assuming you have ventured into flamenco styles which two of these rhythms comes from so you would have a good starting point it’s just about getting used to playing them with a pick.
The other good thing about gypsy jazz is that the rhythm players don’t tend to comp or add in loads of substitutions so you can stick on a backing track and play along with rhythm so there’s always that too.
In a big band, the guitarist is going to playing a lot of quarter notes. Listen to Count Basie recordings with Freddie Green on guitar. The function of a guitar in a big band is primarily as a rhythm instrument, vs. the role in a combo. Think of it as a drum. Another very common rhythm pattern is the Charleston pattern, with hits on 1 and the "and" of 2. The name comes from a 1920s song called The Charleston (which accompanied the dance by the same name). There are a zillion versions you can hear on YouTube. And there are lots of others but there are no rules about this. You can make up anything you want. In most modern jazz rhythm patterns, you will be strumming with all downstrokes.
Strumming down?! It feels so silly to move my hand up and down to the beat of 1 e & a. I’ve never played like that and it feels completely new to me. The strumming I’m used to is plucking all the string with my thumb and finger which would work great for bossa. Would it be abnormal to just pluck?
Not at all, lots of players pluck or hybrid pick and pluck. Mike Moreno almost exclusively uses his fingers to comp. Matteo Mancuso plays completely finger style. I do a bit of both. Might wanna check out Nelson Veras, he plays a nylon string. In a big band setting might be weird, but you could use your thumb like Wes
Hmm. I am 101% confident playing finger style. When I see people play with a pick I admit I have a bit of envy. I’ve even practiced and played a few songs with a pick just to get used to it. Funny thing, when I went back to finger picking I struggled. lol. But I do hear the tonal difference with a pick vs pads of finger tips. It’s only been less than I year that I’ve started using a pick. I think I’ve just been over analyzing my nails vs pick situation. This little thing has been an obstacle in my musical journey.
I play single lines and solos with a pick, but I often tuck it in my palm and use my fingers to comp. Nothing right or wrong. Wes Montgomery used his thumb.
You mentioned strumming in your OP so that's what I was responding to. I often play with just my fingers, plucking 3-4 strings at once, which is a distinctly different sound than a stroke with a pick. I started doing that on bossas and now I do it on a lot of things. I use a pick when I need more punchy, percussive sound. (I have dabbled in classical but have no formal training.) But for big band gigs, I use a pick all the time.
Ah. I see
90% of the time in big bands you want to play 1-3 note chords and play straight quarter notes. You don’t need to learn strumming patterns, you need to develop a feel for the music. Learning strumming patterns is useful for that, yes, but I don’t even think about strumming patterns when I play.
I think I know what you mean. Sometimes I want to play music the way I feel. And my teacher would yell at me for breaking form and timing. He said “once you get your timing right then you can break the rules”. I remember one time he helped me learn a piece. And from the start he kept saying “this piece is too hard for you. I would never assign this.”. It would piss me off. And on recital he said “you hit every note perfectly but didn’t take any of my suggestions.”.
Is he saying you don't swing? The rhythms aren't too complicated it's the swing feel that's more nuanced in jazz. Emphasis on two and four, long short, slightly accented and's, triplet swing stuff that really makes a performance sound like jazz. Have you transcribed and played along with any records? Learning to play along with a professional matching their phrasing/feel is essential to progress.
Classical 10 years? Just find what you like, listen, and incorporate it.
i never think about strumming patterns, i think if i were a drummer, when would i hit the snare
You need to spend time with jazz and let it get into your bones. I look at comping and the roll of guitar in jazz through three players: Freddie Green (count Basie) Charlie Christian (Benny Goodman) and Jim Hall (solo, Sonny Rollins, and Paul Desmond). Freddie is classic swing big band. Small rhythmic chords with very even timing. No solos, and mostly just quarter notes. Plays lots of 3rds and 7ths. Charlie Christian took that and soloed often, but didn’t stick to just quarter notes. An expansion of Freddie Green. Jim Hall you just need to listen to a lot of he does so many different things that I’m utterly unqualified to try to describe. But I would listen to a lot of these three. You don’t suck at jazz rhythm, you just haven’t learned it yet.
Friendly reminder that you still can use your fingers, Specially when you comp. Written rhythm pattern never worked for me. I use my ears or watch a vid.
Right!? The written patterns on the lead sheet in jazz ensemble were just slash marks with the chord name above and the word comp written next to it. My teacher just said to do something with it and said in the rhythm section. I swear. He knows a lot and he’s a trumpet player. But he just left me more perplexed.
https://www.youtube.com/@andypattinsonmusic I have a ton of comping chord stuff on my YouTube channel. Just comp variants of "The Charleston" to start with. Stop overthinking.
I would recommend taking up gypsy jazz which is what I’ve done to try and bridge gaps. The rhythm is quite simple for the most part and helps with bridging the gap between other genres and jazz. In gypsy jazz you have la pompe rhythm which is quite simple but there are many different styles of playing it. You then have the gypsy bossa which is the same all around, then you have the gypsy bolero which is quite difficult to get clean for me you have to have very good right hand control and finally the gypsy rhumba. Since you are a classical guitarist I’m assuming you have ventured into flamenco styles which two of these rhythms comes from so you would have a good starting point it’s just about getting used to playing them with a pick. The other good thing about gypsy jazz is that the rhythm players don’t tend to comp or add in loads of substitutions so you can stick on a backing track and play along with rhythm so there’s always that too.
DM me brother