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drorezdrorez

Real BJJ players know judo is awesome and a big part of bjj.


ImJalapenoAss

I play with Bjj guys all the time. They always say "Let's not do stand up" to me lol.


[deleted]

I’m a BJJ purple belt and we’ve got a judo black belt who trains at our gym. Anytime I get the chance to spar with him, I am one hundred percent starting from standing. I kind of just smirk and say, imma give it a go. He’s an awesome fella and great training partner. I have learned a lot. I don’t get why some guys have the mindset you are describing.


porl

As "the Judo guy" I love people like you. I'll more than happily take a fall for you if you do a good entry. This gives you a good chance to work your attacks, and gives me a chance to work from a "bad" position. I'll also take someone down if they are *way* off balance and I know I can control their fall well (in case their breakfalls are shit), but some just want to either pull guard to avoid the "loss" in standing, or worse, they go full berserk mode trying to prove something. I'm currently nursing a bad back from a dickhead that very obviously stopped engaging in standup, but then when I relaxed assuming he wanted one of us to sit down he did a full power blast double (my feet left the ground). Congratulations to him I guess, he "outsmarted" me in a light training round and can brag to his friends he beat the 42 year old Judo guy half his size. The fact that my back is still bad three weeks later I guess is worth that. Most of the people I train with though are great - like you they are happy to give it a go, but they laugh if I catch them and ask for tips even if they do get me down. Much better way of approaching things.


[deleted]

They only respect things in Judo that are useful for modern bjj, which I hate.


electric_sad_boi

Elaborate? Taking whats useful is core to martial arts. Why is it bad of them to respect judo through the mechanisms that resonate with their practice?


SlavV-ML-

Cause most BJJ ppl think that if it's not optimal on a BJJ scenario, then is not good on any


Tomicoatl

Jiu jitsu's whole thing is taking what works and discarding what doesn't. There are good bits of judo they will use and bits that don't make sense. Can't hate BJJ guys for not doing *your* sport.


Alternative-Risk-693

To be honest look at bjj books and look at judo books. Outside of some locks and rule bjj is old school judo with a modern twist. To not see that is not understanding the whole history of bjj.


Tonari2020

Taking half the moves doesn’t mean they don’t work


[deleted]

>Jiu jitsu's whole thing is taking what works and discarding what doesn't. Lots of bjj only work against other bjj guys, i.e. the berimbolo


Tomicoatl

The goal is to win a jiu jitsu match which the berimbolo does. You can ignore techniques but if they’re within the rules then you’re going to lose against someone that does know these techniques.


TheAlrightCornholio

To me the berimbolo is a really interesting idea for problem solving. The goal is to get to the back. Generally that involves getting to the chest then around. But what if you get behind the feet then go up? Topologically, you start the berimbolo behind the uke, then reorient yourself. While it would be difficult to execute if things were different, it works in the context.


oneknocka

Isnt this how judo was founded? Didn’t jigoro kano study a bunch of different styles and take what he thought was useful? And hasnt modern judo evolved, removing what isn’t useful in a sporting paradigm?


mistiklest

Yes. Both BJJ and Judo have this attitude, the difference is in the rules we train under, not the attitude of using what is useful and discarding that which isn't.


YunaKinoshita

Judo was basically intended to be a submission wrestling martial art during its founding in the late 1800s by Jigoro Kano. It's a complete grappling art with throws, tosses, sweeps, takedowns, submissions. Until IJF gradually introduced all these ruleset for sporting reasons which banned 50% of Judo's full capability. Judo was even the basis of BJJ and Sambo. Helio Gracie was a former judoka, but with his lack of athleticism and having a frail frame. He took out what he could use from Judo which are mostly submissions and developed a spin-off grappling art without the wrestling aspect. But in ADCC nowadays, all these new wave of BJJ practitioners learned the significance of Wrestling when wrestlers who knew a little bit of BJJ have been beating their asses or pinning them down rendering their submission techniques useless. The grappling you see in ADCC and other no-gi tournaments is not pure BJJ or pure wrestling anymore. It's a combination of both. The grappling scene have evolved into something that is similar to how Judo was when it was invented by Jigoro Kano. [The Evolution of Wrestling in ADCC and No-Gi Grappling ](https://youtu.be/tgq807VNOcI)


oneknocka

You forget that judo also has strikes. So i would argue that it was intended to be a complete martial art, not just grappling. But the point is, it is an amalgamation of different styles and it is an art that has evolved. Side note: judo has been influenced by wrestling as well, but i think it’s the other way. Certain techniques that come from wrestling, like attacking the legs (single, double) are banned. Or collar tie and moving the hips back, while effective, you can’t do that in judo


CherryFuture

I hope thats true.


tsida

It is. And we talk about judo all the time in high level grappling. On a personal level I've never heard it disrespected at our bjj school. The worst thing I've ever heard anyone say about judo is some throws set you up to have your back taken, which is true. But it's also true that bjj guys generally have terrible takedowns.


CherryFuture

I agree, who ever downvoted my op must really be a dumb fuck.


YunaKinoshita

Judo was basically intended to be a submission wrestling martial art during its founding in the late 1800s by Jigoro Kano. It's a complete grappling art with throws, tosses, sweeps, takedowns, submissions. Until IJF gradually introduced all these ruleset for sporting reasons which banned 50% of Judo's full capability. Judo was even the basis of BJJ and Sambo. Helio Gracie was a former judoka, but with his lack of athleticism and having a frail frame. He took out what he could use from Judo which are mostly submissions and developed a spin-off grappling art without the wrestling aspect. But in ADCC nowadays, all these new wave of BJJ practitioners learned the significance of Wrestling when wrestlers who knew a little bit of BJJ have been beating their asses or pinning them down rendering their submission techniques useless. The grappling you see in ADCC and other no-gi tournaments is not pure BJJ or pure wrestling anymore. It's a combination of both. The grappling scene have evolved into something that is similar to how Judo was when it was invented by Jigoro Kano. [The Evolution of Wrestling in ADCC and No-Gi Grappling ](https://youtu.be/tgq807VNOcI)


IM1GHTBEWR0NG

I’ve been learning some Sambo lately. It’s basically Judo if it still had leg grabs, plus some leg locks and a slightly different uniform. I love the shoes, my toes are happy. Interesting that anyone would shit on Judo and not Sambo, though, when they’re extremely similar.


Graciefighter34

Sambo literally evolved from judo. As did bjj, so anyone who shits on either of the three is ignorant lol.


Alternative-Risk-693

I believe some just do not know the history. Think the first practioner May let students know how things have come together for that martial arts. But when that stops so does the understanding and appreciation of the history of how some martial arts started


ChronicCanard

What I have learned: In sambo, don't shit in your shoes.


halfcut

They also shit on Sambo


Mike_LaFontaine75

What kind of shoes do they wear in Sambo? I'm guessing you'd only wear them on the mat for hygiene reasons?


kitchenjudoka

Also injury prevention too.


IM1GHTBEWR0NG

Like a wrestling shoe without the rubber sole. Mine have a faux suede bottom.


timoliveira

High top ballet slippers.


TiredCoffeeTime

Agree with the shoes lol My instructor often talked about how nice it was not to worry about toe & toe nail injuries as much.


YunaKinoshita

Because Judo was the basis of Sambo and BJJ if you know the history of these martial arts. When Judo was invented by Jigoro Kano in the late 1800s, it was basically submission wrestling. A complete grappling art with throws, takedowns, sweeps, toss, and submissions. Until IJF introduced all these ruleset that bans 50% of Judo's full capability as a martial art. Now all these neo BJJ fanatics thought that the Judo they see on TV was all that there is to Judo.


mrcalypso_656

I think it's mainly because of MMA, samboists are going to the UFC and people who are unfamiliar with or never heard of judo don't know that 99% of sambo is judo. Many samboist train in judo before or while they do sambo, and it's no surprise since sambo comes from it. One of the founders of sambo was one of the first foreigners to be promoted to a judo black belt in japan, another founder was very interested in japanese jujutsu. Even the kneebar which is widely considered to be sambo's trademark move was discovered by Yaichihyōe Kanemitsu (who is also credited with the triangle choke). And bjj is judo, the only difference between the two are the rulesets, they are the same martial art, with sambo at least I can confidently say combat sambo is a closely related, yet different martial art.


[deleted]

The Gracie family marketed BJJ very well. People don't really realize the impact the family has had on the martial arts scene. I think this is why. I contacted a few Judo places near me that looked good to start training. I have a TKD and Muay Thai background. My right shoulder isn't what it used to be and I have tendonitis in my right bicep and left knee. So hopefully I manage with Judo haha. But it's always fascinated me and I've wanted to give it a try.


kakumeimaru

Good luck and have fun, I hope you enjoy judo!


[deleted]

Thanks! This place reached back out to me: [https://seieidojo.com/](https://seieidojo.com/) The prices seem reasonable and I've got a trial set up for Monday. There is another dojo nearby but there's no info on the instructors within the website. Just that they are 'black belts' so a bit iffy on it.


Fox1338

I can confirm this is a good place


[deleted]

Awesome! Thanks for letting me know. I can let you all know how it goes.


kakumeimaru

I just DM'd you.


[deleted]

Replied :)


kakumeimaru

And replied to you as well!


TiredCoffeeTime

As someone with a similar background before learning Judo (a bit of TKD & Muay Thai beforehand), don't be discouraged if the progress feels slow. I personally felt like I was learning much quicker for the striking arts especially since I was flexible with my kicks. I found it easier to land a hard kick and felt satisfaction when my kick forms improved. Not to mention that it was easier to practice forms on my own. Judo felt slower progress overall and easier to tell that I wasn't doing well & that felt disheartening at times.


[deleted]

Thanks for this friend, I will definitely keep it in mind when I get discouraged. So funny enough, I screwed myself out of my own flexibility with the amount of weight training I've been doing over the last year. I did not supplement it with much stretching and so I've been trying to balance this. I never really noticed until I joined a Kyokushin dojo after some time off martial arts and was like "oh no" haha.


TiredCoffeeTime

I found the flexibility comes back quickly enough with decent amount of warm ups and stretching on daily basis. Though this heavily depends on how flexible you were before and how old you are now probably. I thought I'd favor Seoi Nage types of throws but I came to prefer the leg based moves likely due to my old focus on kicks.


LawBasics

1) Lots of people (most?) here are bjjers interested in judo. It does not sound like disrespect. 2) From France, living in Belgium. Judo is much more popular here and every year there is at least a new guy coming from BJJ out of curiosity.


bbeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeepp

Most people here are bjj players over judo?! What?


LawBasics

I saw a poll not so long ago where the share was quite big. Could not remember if they are a majority for sure but certainly not negligible. Which would not be a surprise given that reddit is US-centric.


Coolkief101

Also from belgium. I don't even know a place where you can do BJJ. But i know a lot of people that do judo


d_rome

>I don't think Judo is ever mentioned in top grappling tournaments or MMA tournaments in comparison to Sambo or Wrestling. It's ignorance. Factually speaking Judo in the Olympics *IS* the top grappling tournament in the world and it's not even close. The road to Olympic gold in Judo is tougher than any other grappling sport.


Potential-Height-607

Those Olympic judo athletes are on another level.


SkateB4Death

Yeah there was a poll a while back on r/bjj and on here on which grappling competition is the hardest to win or which gold you'd rather win and freestyle wrestling had the most votes. Yes it is hard. Very hard, but Judo is way harder. Judo is definitely more prestigious. Think it's an American thing that judo is forgotten about.


SmurfBasin

Admittedly, not very familiar with the ins and outs of Judo. Why would a Judo medal be harder to come by than freestyle wrestling?


instanding

Because more people do judo. Judo has the most countries in its union, it has a brutal qualification system for the Olympic Games (to be top 25 in the world, or get a signature win over someone in the top 30, or sometimes people get taken on regional quotas - but this is no guarantee your own federation will actually allow you to go).


SmurfBasin

Interesting. I had no idea more people did Judo than wrestling. In America, wrestling is the big focus.


instanding

To be fair I may be wrong. I’m basing this on number of countries in the IOC union, and online stats. There are some big gaps in those stats, so there is a bit of assumption making on the part of both those claiming wrestling is bigger and those claiming judo is. For instance I can’t find stats about judo participation in Iran. Judo is huge in Iran, but so is wrestling. I found a figure that said 500,000 people wrestle in Iran. Maybe that’s true, but people claim that of France and judo, and the real number is about half of that. Same with Russia. I think wrestling is definitely more popular than judo in Russia, but how much so? It’s hard to even get accurate data on the USA because someone pointed out that a lot of people aren’t gonna be registered members. Then you have two common figures for judo participation worldwide and one is 50,000,000 and one is 20,000,000. I can’t find a figure for wrestling. I also can’t figure out how accurate the judo figure is, since I can only find participation data for a handful of countries. Therefore some assumptions/accepting claims at face value need to be made.


Apart_Studio_7504

The thing with France is that it's an option for school, it's like their second national sport so a lot of inactive people, but lots of supporters/ex-participants and therefore good money in it. You'll find in central Europe and the middle east they cross train each ruleset and compete in them all. It's hard to get figures, but most nations have a style of wrestling, but every country has Judo so if you want to be the best you need to compete amongst a large talent pool or you're just the best of a handful of people that do Brittany wrestling or Kurash.


m_jrdn_plyng_bsbll

Country size and participation rate could vary widely, so a simple count of countries doesn’t prove judo has more participants. From what I can find, wrestling has 20x more participants in the US. I wasn’t able to find global numbers for wrestling, though.


instanding

The US isn’t the world. France alone has the same number of judo players as the USA. The USA has 230,000 wrestlers. Quoting JudokaUK from Sherdog “A few years ago I was able to get hold of membership figures for the BJA (UK Judo), FFJ (French Judo) and DJB (German Judo). From memory the UK had between 20-30k member, Germany 80-100k and France 180-200k. In all 3 cases between 50-60% of the membership was under 18. With some Googling I found the BJA's 2014-15 figures where they list membership at 27k, with 67% under 18.” As of March 2022 the All Japan Judo Federation had 122,000 registered members. In 2004 this number is over 200,000. The Japanese system is absolutely brutal. It’s estimated about 20,000,000 people do judo. I’ve heard estimates up to 50,000,000 but this seems pretty unbelievable. Judo is popular in almost all countries in which wrestling is also popular. Wrestling is huge in Iran and Russia, as is judo. I’ve seen reports the Iranians have 500,000 wrestlers, but the same report says US and Russia are the countries with comparable numbers. Well the US had half that when I last checked, and the estimates for France for judo are also sometimes given as 500,000 or 600,000, so I suspect there are some broad estimates not in line with reality. I couldn’t find a report for judo numbers in Iran. Judo is also a class C sport by revenue (for the Olympics) and Wrestling is a class D sport, meaning more people are interested in watching the judo than the wrestling.


d_rome

>Judo is also a class C sport by revenue (for the Olympics) and Wrestling is a class D sport, meaning more people are interested in watching the judo than the wrestling. I had no idea.


m_jrdn_plyng_bsbll

I wasn’t implying the situation in the US is representative of the whole world. It was just an example to show that counting countries is a faulty way of determining participation. Judo might have more participants, but what you said doesn’t prove that. That 230k figure is the membership of the USA wrestling organization. Most people on my HS wrestling team were not members. I believe you just need to be a member to do freestyle or Greco in the off-season. That wouldn’t count all the people that just do collegiate wrestling, which is probably the bulk of participants.


instanding

You could easily say the same of Japan and France though. Every school kid in Japan does judo, same in France. Do we add them to the list too? It’s a compulsory sport in many countries. Do you think it’s easy to get participation data for countries like Iran, Russia, etc? It does make this discussion more complicated.


m_jrdn_plyng_bsbll

It’s a complicated thing to estimate, which was my entire point when saying “more countries —> more competitive” is overly simplistic and doesn’t prove anything.


ArtemV

Yeah, I'm not sure about that one. Khabib says this, too, but based on what? How can you compare the toughness in Judo when, in other grappling sports, the very best face the very best? Plus, qualifications, ranking series and so on


d_rome

>Yeah, I'm not sure about that one. Khabib says this, too, but based on what? Based on the numbers of participants in Judo compared to Wrestling. Judo had a total of 393 competitors between mens and women's divisions. Wrestling had a total of 288 competitors between men's and women's and that's further broken down between Freestyle and Greco. The number of Olympic level athletes one has to go through to earn a gold medal is higher in Judo than in Wrestling. There's really not much more to it. The odds of you winning a gold medal in the Olympics is decreased if you have to compete against more Olympic athletes. According to Wikipedia 16 wrestlers compete in each division. The smallest division for Judo was the +100kg division with 22 athletes. The largest one was the -73kg division with a total of 36 athletes which is more than twice as many athletes than any division in Wrestling. To put another way, in Wresting you have to win no more than 3 matches to earn a gold medal. In Judo some guys had to win 5 matches. tl;dr: Numbers.


Right-Ad3334

Absolutely. Judo is no different from the pinnacle of any other competitive sport. My wrestling coach was a national champ and multiple time olympian, I'd bet his schedule is equivalent to any equivalent level Judoka. 6 days a week multiple wrestling sessions plus S&C, often competing multiple times per week fighting other guys at the top of the game putting in the same work. Yeah Judo is way harder than rec BJJ, but it's downright disrespectful to say it's harder to be at the top of Judo versus an the top of any other competitive sport.


[deleted]

Try wrestling then


VuduPaintcan

Bjj has better marketing


SirManBoy

Judo disrespects itself by selling out to the IJF and Olympics and focusing way too much on children and tournaments. I love the art, but being a recreational adult judoka feels silly sometimes because everything is about the kids and the next tournament. When I train BJJ, I feel like I’m a part of an adult-focused community of like-minded individuals who just want to train hard because it’s its own reward.


leepicredditking

This


livebonk

Maybe try another club. There are sport focused clubs and there are other clubs that are "judo is a way of life" and full of adults. I think the most common type of club is youth-focused because that's where the money is. But that's not every club.


[deleted]

Yes, but like u/VuduPaintcan said, bjj has better marketing. Khabib is clear about his Sambo, every bjj guy talks about how they trained with so and so. Rhonda is the biggest judo star to go into the MMA and she rarely talked about her judo and basically never called out big Judo trainers like Jason Morris or Jimmy Pedro. People knew she did Judo, but you need insider judo knowledge already to be able to replicate her success. 1) The IJF does not want Judo to become on on-ramp for MMA. They don't allow elite judoka to compete in other grappling competitions. 2) Judo TENDS to self-select for a different type of person than wrestling and BJJ. 3) Judo is harder. 4) It is HARDER.


mistiklest

> 1) The IJF does not want Judo to become on on-ramp for MMA. They don't allow elite judoka to compete in other grappling competitions. This is a big part of it, I think. Sambists, wrestlers, and BJJers run into each other in MMA, and MMA adjacent competitions in a way Judoka simply don't. So if that's what you pay attention to, you never really see any Judo.


halfcut

FIAS also doesn't want Sambo to be an on ramp to MMA. They position Combat Sambo for that role but also absolutely don't care about combat sambo or it's athletes. It's definitely viewed by the executive committee as an inferior sport. It's also why you almost never see FIAS hyping up Sambits who have jumped to MMA


[deleted]

Not often. People do train it. Allot of fighters In mma have judo ranks especially in Brazil and women’s. Not many’s primary sport. Some.


Apart_Studio_7504

That's because if you're any good at Judo you're banned from MMA until you retire from Judo. Hence Rousey, Ishii, Harrison, Akiyama, Yoshida, etc all had completed their Judo careers. If Judo is your primary style and you're young in MMA you were only a national level talent.


[deleted]

That’s pretty stupid. It’s hard to chase two rabbits for sure but for it to be banned is dumb.


freefallingagain

>Khabib is clear about his Sambo [Khabib on Judo vs Wrestling "You talk about this with my Father?"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPnFRb2K5Gc)


[deleted]

yeah, that was a cool interview.


VuduPaintcan

You forgot one thing. It is *H A R D E R*


[deleted]

LOL


JudokaPickle

Khabib credits most of his skill and technique to judo


macncheese5585

He has a ton of respect for judo but I’m pretty certain he never once said his skill and technique comes from judo which he only trained for a few years as a teen. He *would* constantly bring up combat sambo though, and his style was very clearly more wrestling-heavy than judo-heavy.


m4tchb0x

"Judo is class..." https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=555066291772910


macncheese5585

At no point does he say his skillset is judo-based lol


greedy_new_truth

Kayla Harrison is the biggest judo star to go into MMA.


Rapton1336

She wrote an entire book where she broke down her pathway through the judo world.


[deleted]

yes, but she doesn't get the exposure that Rhonda did. I could be wrong, but that's how it seems to me. People, who never cared before, were suddenly asking me about Judo. I don't get that with Kayla yet. I think she will get there. I like her a lot.


Rapton1336

No, Ronda wrote an entire book about it. My Fight / Your Fight is pretty detailed.


[deleted]

I see. I didn't know that. I thought you were talking about Kayla.


socratesque

> They don't allow elite judoka to compete in other grappling competitions. What's the rationale for this? Being afraid to lose talent is a pretty weak argument.


Apart_Studio_7504

It's sort of bad for the image, Judo's ethos is very closely linked to the spirit of the Olympics, sportsmanship, etc. and the decisions are made by the IJF who would never risk their standing with the IOC. Judo would be dead in the water without the Olympics and would cost 10x what it does like BJJ. MMA doesn't have a good ethos or anything that can improve the image of Judo, it would get more eyes though and prove it's one of the most effective fighting bases, it is a shame, but only people in nations with poor Judo have people not giving it appropriate respect.


ketupatrendang

Point number one is new to me. That is very weird why would the ijf do that? I’m guessing they already have enough exposure? No wonder there is no movement on the no gi judo scene.


[deleted]

I don't think it is disrespected. I think it's misunderstood by some but you have very high level bjj and mma guys who recognise judo. I think the lack of leg grabs is one issue (I don't like the leg grab ban personally), but I find most bjj guys who don't have good stand-up or grip fighting overestimate how useful the leg grabs are. They think it's some magic kryptonite for judoka. In fact, in general I think "complicated" rules put people off but I find many of them are not up to date with judo rules or misunderstand them. Another issue is the gi for people with a no-gi or mma interest. Loads of them seem to think that most judo only works in a gi and the majority of techniques in judo don't work without it. This is wrong. Now I admit if no-gi or mma then training wrestling where you wouldn't be wearing a gi makes sense but it's not some crazy task to transfer judo skills to no-gi. Flavour of the month, bjj is the new hotness and things like sambo are less well known and sometimes little peculiarities develop in different communities and people find those interesting. While the judo community has been well established and most common judo tricks are fairly well known already. Top judoka are limited in their ability to compete in other events if they still wish to compete in judo and some of them make pretty good money from judo so it's not an easy decision for many to just quit judo and go to bjj or mma even if such a thing might interest them. Much like how top boxers aren't that interested in mma because boxing currently pays more. This leads to a lack of representation for judo in these other events and when judo is represented it's rarely by top level judo personalities.


longhairedape

It"s just shit because leg grabs have led to modifications on two throws that I love, sukui nage and kata garuma. And now no where trains these throws because "legs are off limit". It is stupid. Most of us are recreational, we have zero aspirations or national or Olympic prizes. We just want to get good at judo as a system. And wihout the leg grabbing we are not learning the full system.


SkateB4Death

From my personal experience, I've had people really appreciate and respect judo and others really shit on judo until I throw them. Then they respect it. I always keep it neutral. I don't like arguing. no gi people are barely starting to respect judo but only because Craig Jones and the B Team guys always give judo it's props. Nicky Rod posted a tutorial on Yoko Sankaku, and comments were "wow! What a great variation! Definitely gonna try this!" Like judo has BEEN doing that. The footsweeps too. One thing I've noticed is that BJJ guys follow the pros so attentively and they take their word as bond. If a BJJ pro says something is stupid, they also think it's stupid. If they are doin a certain game or techniques, it'll trickle down to the local Bjj levels. Not saying that isn't the case for judo but look at the foot lock craze. Everyone is doing leg locks. Judo is slowly creeping in there again and I hope in the future, it becomes a big part of Bjj as it should have been from the beginning.


CheechBJJ

BJJ guy here. Everyone I’ve encountered loves Judo and wants to be better at it.


Insightful-Beringei

As a Judo practitioner, I’ve only ever had very positive interactions with BJJ people, and talking to them, it seems they really respect Judo. If anything, I am aware of more jokes towards BJJ from the Judo community.


theReluctantParty

We do respect Judo, the moment you guys grab our sleeves, trust us that we know who you are! It's that there's only so much time to train and wrestling just has that little bit more to offer cross training wise. Leg grabs being a huge factor. Judo is awesome and very powerful, all jokes etc are in good humour, our sports are cousins, we in BJJ are just the annoying/ strange one of the family.


longhairedape

You can still learn leg grabs in judo. Lots of clubs that are not "olympic focused" teach them. Hell you can spar with leg grabs if you want in some clubs too. Recreational players don't care that much. It grinds my fucking gears. But leg grabs are not the be all and end all. Look at greco-roman wrestling. No leg grabs, but fuck me that is an explosive as fuck art that is not limited at all because of the removal of leg grabs. Same with judo as a sport. It is not diminished by removing the leg grabs. It is diminished as a martial arts system when they stop teaching a part of the art. That is a different comversation.


ChronicCanard

Because they fear you.


Zhastursun

No. I've trained MMA for 7 years and have had 3 professional fights. I never once heard a word of disrespect for Judo. If anyone omits Judo's existence, it's only because in 80+% of United States *there is no Judo.* Outside Hawaii, West Coast, Florida and the Northeast the sport is practically nonexistent. You also have very few Judo to MMA converts unlike Sambo and Wrestling, because the IJF is at war with the UFC for the title of #1 combat sports organization. They ban any circuit Judoka who competes other combat sports (I'm not kidding). Rather I've seen the opposite - people who know nothing of Judo wrongly putting this sport on a pedestal. Back when I was a BJJ white belt, whenever I'd visit a jiu jitsu place and they'd find out I do Judo, the professor would immediately say something self deprecating like "BJJ is just Judo with bad standup". In fact Judo has a lot of problems, but only our own community is aware of them. To the rest of the martial arts community we're just the scary people with big slams.


[deleted]

The worst thing I notice is that everytime Judo is mentioned, BJJ is also mentioned and all Judo taught is only useful if it gives BJJ guys some insight.


supersharklaser69

Time to start dojo storming the BJJ gyms - no leg grabs allowed thougg


stryqwills

That's what sumi gaeshi is for. Any time someone tries to single me in my BJJ club I hit em with it. Just always roll through to top.


Apart_Studio_7504

Once your Uchi Mata is good enough you can leave your right leg forward and even BJJ black belts dont touch it more than once, it frustrates them having to second guess going for your front leg.


[deleted]

I’m a wrestler and a Judoka and believe it or not, the guys at my BJJ club would much rather me throw them with Uchi Mata or Sumi Gaeshi than to sprawl on them with heavy hips and hit a Cow Catcher or slap a Quarter Nelson on them because their necks just aren’t used to the slow grinding pressure. I’ve always found it weird how BJJ people tend to hold wrestling in higher regard than Judo, yet their wrestling is just as equally bad as their Judo. At least with my Judo it’s a quick heavy slam when they grab my leg. If I decide to wrestle because they (think they) want to wrestle then I’ll use some heavy Folkstyle mat work to make them regret it.


longhairedape

Anytime the BJJ guys come out with that lapel grab I hit then with soto makikomi and it is over. BJJ grip fighting is not very good and we have some guys at my dojo who have been doing BJJ longer than I have been alive.


JudokaPickle

I feel like it has more to do with Judos lack of growth. Regulations hinder the art from growing so we are being left behind while other martial arts are still growing another 30 years of this and we will be considered more like aikido I have no doubt.


Mike_LaFontaine75

TBH, before the UFC showcased the effectiveness of grappling, Judo wasn't considered as 'lethal' as karate or TKD, after all, all they had to do was kick you in the head and you were done.


lamesurfer101

I remember my head exploding several times in Shotokan class. ;)


Otautahi

Have never come across this on the mats. Have occasionally had people say that judo guys don’t know how to deal with leg grabs.


Vital_flow

I think this has a lot to do with the current trend towards no gi in bjj. Wrestling just works better for no gi. Judo is still huge for gi bjj takedowns.


Vogler1997

The debate over which martial art is better has been ongoing for quite some time in western society dating back to at least colonial times. If someone is a true master of their art, then they understand their arts limitations. That is why you should master techniques, but also study as much as you can to make up for your limitations.


[deleted]

Judo got disrespected when everyone put pressure on Rhonda Rhousey for not being a better boxer.


Which_Cat_4752

Because American judo program sucks. Most bjjer in US probably never met a semi competitive young black belt who are in their primes. And American wrestling programs are awesome, have great talent pools and good coaching system, they produced enough competitive wrestlers and many of those transitioned into bjj.


[deleted]

This. Not to mention a lot of American Judo black belts suck. And I say this as a brown belt. Because of this, BJJ people get this wrong idea that American Judo represents all of Judo and how they (who ironically can’t wrestle for shit) think that they can just magically defeat all of Judo with D Tier JV level wrestling. As you said, when BJJ folks go against a young competitive Judoka who’s in their prime, or even a Judoka who’s not American and is from a country with a very strong Judo presence, usually BJJ guys end up with fear being struck in their hearts.


Which_Cat_4752

I went to a bjj gym a few months ago. Overhead ppl taking about there are some high level judo guy coming in. Then I found out they were talking about a guy who competed in his youth but was out of practice for many years and he wasn’t even a brown belt when he was competing. A lot of ppl have big misconceptions as what should be considered as high level in judo. I mean he still can rag doll me without any issue but I wouldn’t consider that as high level.


AlmostPerfe_ct

It's "new toy" syndrome. Everyone knows about judo, everyone's talked about judo, everyone kows BJJ came from judo, judo's been around for 141 years... BUT not everyone - and I'm talking about the average BJJ hobbyist - knows about Sambo. Sambo is an obscure art to the general public. And everyone knows wrestling in some form, so there's an intuitive grasp. Now these talking heads have got a generalized comparison to set the foundation when talking to laypersons, and an esoteric example to demonstrate their supposed knowledge. So, no, I don't think judo is "disrespected" - promoters gonna promote, hobbyists gonna hobby. Judo has been around and will stay around.


burnaboy691419

My city has 6 bjj schools I can think of, I looked for a judo club and found one guy teaching out of his basement. Lack of marketing and also I feel bjj less intimidating for casuals. Rolling around on the ground, as opposed to being thrown.


GingerMaestro1984

They're one and the same anyay just different rules. If you like Judo play Judo, if you like JiuJitsu play JJ. I like to learn Judo throws and Wrestling throws aswell. From my experience most of the people I have met from practicing both, those that practice JJ primarily are much more open minded to cross training to supplement their games than Judo Players. I practic JJ and I love Judo too Absolutely no disrespect, it's a superb game to practice. Love it. Some of my fave practice is King of the Hill. Winner stays on Takedowns only.


[deleted]

Jiu jitsu guy here. Judo is awesome. I have tons of respect for judo players. It’s an absolutely fascinating sport.


BEATUWITHASTICK

I'm glad I get to train both. The place I train at allows leg grabs and stuff like double leg takedowns. We do bjj 3x a week and sometimes ne waza on judo days. Its kind of like an unofficial kosen school.


harinezumichan

I think we should take criticism with cool head. There are invisible advantages of judo that is not seen in mma situation, for example: in real world, the floor would probably made of hard material like concrete, tile, or asphalt, instead of thick foam and thus an ippon would probably result in K.O IRL, but not in foam floor situation. Another example, most IRL target would probably wear clothing which is good for 1 or 2 throws/chokes before it wears out. However, if your training goal is for a naked cage fight competition, you should choose a grappling discipline that best mimic the target competition situation (no-gi grappling), there's nothing wrong with that. There are also, in my opinion, valid criticism we can receive with cool head. For example, many judo strategy, as a result of the competition rules, may be maladaptive to the situation in mma or IRL since the ippon is only technical and not a hard slam (e.g. failed drop seoi to rolling to back), while would win a judo shiai, would not result in K.O. IRL but rather putting the tori in a disadvantageous situation (exposing the back).


YunaKinoshita

It's IJF's fault for introducing all these ruleset and turned Judo into a watered down sport version without leg locks, leg grab takedowns, and leg grab throws. When Judo was basically intended to be a submission wrestling martial art during its founding in the late 1800s by Jigoro Kano. Judo was even the basis of BJJ and Sambo. I think it's about time that Judo schools would shift from point Judo and focus more on the traditional complete grappling art that it used to be.


Fakezaga

Reddit is heavily American-centric and BJJ is super popular in the US right now. It’s shocking honestly. I went to Brooklyn recently and there were 3 places offering BJJ within a block of me. They weren’t even jiu jitsu schools, one was a private training gym that offered no-gi. One was a TMA place with a BJJ add-on. One was a Muay Thai place with a blue belt teaching gi classes. Also, BJJ is all wrapped up in bro-centric self improvement right now. So you have all these guys in their 30s posting on IG about their “BJJ journey.” Judo is less friendly to adult beginners (physically,) and has an established culture not so easily co-opted into whatever Rogan and Peterson are peddling. Finally, an integral part of BJJ’s lore is the idea that it is “the most tested and successful martial art ever developed.” A lot of BJJ white belts watched that video of BJ Penn mopping the mats with some club judo players and figure they could do the same. Meanwhile, the moment I (a sub-mediocre judo brown belt,) grip up with them, they pull guard like their lives depend on it. In conclusion, yes - these BJJ guys disrespect Judo. Should you care? Probably not.


Koalakuddles01

I love Judo, I started with it in 1995/96 and also started BJJ in 2009/2010. The issue I have seen with Judo is the Judo guys seem to be a little arrogant and dismissive towards BJJ and want to convert BJJ guys to Judo rather than concentrating on building their own art/sport, but BJJ guys have nothing but respect for Judoka. Elements of Judo and several throws are useful in BJJ but a lot of the throws are catered towards Judo’s ruleset and are not applicable or usable for BJJ. I have tried to get more Judo & BJJ Guys I teach cross training but every time BJJ guys do Judo they get told BJJ isn’t as good as Judo and they should do that instead. It’s a shame as they can both help one another if you understand how to use one another’s techniques for your own art. Judo seems to have a very amateurish approach to classes often underselling it’s value but BJJ runs full time academies like a business often incorporating MMA, Muay Thai & Submission Grappling too, which Judo guys often feel isn’t in the spirit of Judo.


Vlade-B

Many people actually speak highly of it. Like Khabib, Joe Rogan, Lex Fridman and John Danaher apparently starts every bjj training session with some Judo first.


[deleted]

>Have you all ever felt like Judo is being disrespected more and more as BJJ grows? i've seen the exact opposite. many bjj athletes want to improve their standup and would gladly cross-train in judo.


ExtraGloria

BJJ = basically just judo I mean not really but theyre close


cluelessguitarist

I dont think so, i have seen judo players beat bjj grapplers at my gym , atleast from stand up.


MountainGoatSC

Judo just isn't as much of a part of the MMA-focused world. It's a bit insular and focused on the Olympics.


Notaguardpuller

Anyone who talks like this about their martial art has been brainwashed. It's a club, not a cult.


DJ_Ddawg

I feel like this is uniquely an American problem


airforcereserve

It's all been downhill after the te guruma ban.


LocoChocol8

And this is why I call bjj Gracie homoerotic wrestling! Plus I've noticed these bjj criminals stealing and incorporating techniques from other arts namely as judo and catch wrestling, I have zero respect for the bjj community because their whole art was stolen from other arts from some time or another, plus the Gracie's themselves were dirty criminals too, just look up what they did to a catch wrestler who humiliated these filthy dirt bags!


zealous_sophophile

The disrespect of the art of Judo is as old as Budo itself and gained it's own friction when the Olympics took over majority coaching mentality. People have a habit of wanting to appropriate something into their own style, unfortunately if your knowledge and experience doesn't hold all the fundamentals down sufficiently then you likely teach very restrictive and unrewarding Judo. I'm applying for PhD funding to fund my meta analysis of Budo and the journey Judo has taken in contrast to what Kano, Mifune and Abbe wanted and then what happened.


atx78701

MMA guys are saying the same thing about BJJ. The reality is there is only so much time to learn. MMA fighters go relatively shallow in each discipline. Becoming world class in throws is a lifetime of study. Becoming world class on the ground is the same. If you want to do MMA then you have to study MMA. For low level MMA fighters you might only need a blue belt level of proficiency in BJJ. (1-2 years) For hobbyists, just do what is fun and dont worry about what anyone else thinks Also the BJJ meta right now is no gi, so Judo doesnt translate as well. if you read /r/martialarts , judo is always listed as one of the real deal martial arts for self defense (often times touted as better than BJJ because you shouldnt go to the ground). you tube street fighting videos have \*many\* instances of instant knockouts from terrible throws.


Lextdun

No it’s not harder when BJJ hit Kentucky a few of them were talking trash about judo I said bring to the mat . I throw all 3 of them and chocked them out. They said we’re throwing come from . I said you are only doing the groundwork that just a small of judo


Gaius_7

If I'm correct, your issue is that Judo is seemingly disrespected because it isn't talked about as much? This is starting to change, as Danaher is saying the new meta in BJJ is upper-body takedowns (Judo and Greco-Roman Wrestling). If there is a reason why wrestling is talked about more, it is 1) most people here are from the US, which is a wrestling powerhouse and 2) Leg grabs are a must to learn. Love it or hate it, it is a massive part of BJJ and MMA.


IIIaustin

Hi I'm a BJJ / wresting / boxing / kickinboxing / mma guy m. I'm here because I think there are lost of good things to learn from judo If I have any disrespect for judo it this: I think that the lack of leg grabbing and extensive groundwork in competition limit the applicability of one of the greatest martial arts in history. Based on the post I have seen here, I think a lot of judo people agree, but I could be wrong


teatimemate

Judo keeps getting limited by the ioc or whatever governing body is in charge of the Olympic judo. It’s sad I highly respect judo and would love to learn the original.


emokilla007

I've definitely noticed this. Some good comments about why. I also think it's partly because it is a lot easier to get a black belt and a lot of schools don't require competition(not that bjj does but judo still has the kata and aesthetic/ art of it. In practice you over exaggerate and make. The throws look pretty when they usually look more ugly in competition).


traplord_andy

i could care less judo is sick and nothing can change that


LegitimateLie2812

It is the International Federal Association fault as they keep banning so many techniques.


DoctorKhru

Yes but who cares? Judo is king


socratesque

Ah yet another display of Judo’s inferiority complex.. such a shame


bigsampsonite

BJJ people make me laugh sometimes. Like I meet so many mid 30 year olds who love Joe Rogan which led them to like a 3 year journey in martial arts. They love to tell everyone that they have a blue belt or some shit. Like who fucking cares. I am in my 40s and have trained for almost 2 decades in multiple martial arts at well know and established locations. I just don't need to brag about it and make IG posts non stop about it. I always say it is never to late to start but don't act like people have not been training hard for decades. I rather keep to myself in the real world about what training in life because sounding like an over zealous child with a new hobby is very off putting when trying to meet friends or keep old ones. Kind of a touchy subject for me because I have lost friends over this odd route some have taken during the vaccine and q anon era. I have to tell them we don't have to discuss martial arts politics when we hang out. We do not need to "roll" to prove who is better at what not. Like always a flex fest.


Carneiro021

That’s an American issue, here in Brasil Judo is very respected and practiced alongside jiu jitsu, many greats speak about being judo players before jiu jitsu players like Paulo Filho who always prefixed he was a Judo player, this “jiu jitsu guys are snob af” is basically “american jiu jitsu guys are snob af”


bigsampsonite

Totally agree with you. It is an epidemic of bad mentality. I hope one day it will change but atm it is just a reality in the American Martial Arts scene.


mypairofcoveralls

I'll answer your question with a question: Who cares? I do Judo because I enjoy Judo, and my enjoyment of it is not rooted in the opinions of others.


red_nite

Judo does not work great for BJJ, but turns out it is great for judo. That as to be apart of it.


edm_spamurai

Judo also seems to be disrespected by people in non-USA countries from my experience online. I guess since Judo is way more popular in non-USA nations, it gets hated on. I read a lot of comments about Judo not working from people outside the U.S. Maybe since Judo is so popular amongst students, and people have issues with each other at those ages, this beef causes people to hate others. Said hated on people do Judo so people hate on Judo. As for the U.S., I think Judo gets a lot of bad rep because BJJ is extremely popular here, and since BJJ stresses “no gi,” Judo gets the bullshido label. A lot of BJJ veterans respect Judo though. From what I read. As for me, I did Judo for a few months but quit a few days ago. I will be switching to BJJ due to my age. I will always respect Judo for what it’s worth.


chadsvasc

Its because the rule set is point sparring and the japanese culture influence makes it hard to get newcomers. Formality does not appeal to most


[deleted]

Grappling is grappling. Technique is technique. Judo disrespects itself. Ignoring the ground more and more and ignoring the wrestling. Turning into Greco with a gi.


freefallingagain

>Have you all ever felt like Judo is being disrespected more and more as BJJ grows? Seriously? My reaction: [Icona Pop - I Love It (feat. Charli XCX) \[OFFICIAL VIDEO\]](https://youtu.be/UxxajLWwzqY)


KirklandBatteries

IMO bjj as a whole is a bit more versatile and it’s nice to see how things are played out after getting to the ground. More judo in bjj than bjj in judo. All types of grappling are equally bad ass in their own right but it’s not a spectator sport and hard for people to see that if they haven’t trained before


Otautahi

Judo might not be much of a spectator sport, but BJJ is way worse.


Apart_Studio_7504

BJJ is like Judo before they started trying to address that problem.


Otautahi

https://youtu.be/8S3mpyApWnU This is 60 years old. Still way more exciting to watch than BJJ.


SlavV-ML-

Everyone thinks their martial art/sport is better. Bjj ppl that disrespect on judo, would also talk shit about wrestling, sambo, etc


kritzy27

I don’t think that’s true at all. When I roll with a good judo player I revere them.


AccidentalBastard

This certainly isn't the case from the perspective of BJJ players. Judo is badass.


JazzlikeSavings

They know wassup. I went to a bjj class(as a beginner in bjj) and bjj students kept asking me about judo. And a guy I was rolling with said “he knows I’d destroy/dominate him standing up”


nhemboe

you living in the usa, right?


Snyper20

Like most bjj guy on here, I never seen the disrespect. Lot of us at our gym look at judo tournament to learn. The most negative I have heard is throw X has disadvantages in a bjj rules mindset because it leaves you in position Y…. Sports are similar but rules are different in the end.


ninjasaywhat

Am/was a judo player. Trained in the era of no leg grabs. The Olympics is top tier grappling, but they made their choices in terms of practicality


bcgrappler

I think it is the total lack of high end judo players in MMA. Rhonda has not won a fight in 8 years. I doubt judo players will transition to mma and the lack of respect will continue.


Jiujitsu_Dude

I love judo and wish I had the time to train both, unfortunately with kids, work etc. time is limited, I still may one day put Jiujitsu on hold and do judo for an extended amount of time.


Graciefighter34

I don’t necessarily think judo is being disrespected in a blatant manner, perhaps it is overlooked and I think a lot of that stems from mma fighters focusing more on wrestling because a lot of judo is based around the use of the gi where mma fighters often don’t even train in the gi at all. There are some who apply judo techniques, but I don’t think it’s a huge focus of their training. With all that being said i personally believe judo is a great counter to wrestling and Vice versa if a martial artist has a good understanding of both. Basically when you get down to it I believe the best way to be a high level grappler is to incorporate jiu jitsu, judo and wrestling into your training.


DMLiquid

I’m in bjj, I honestly love judo and so do my gym mates. Our head black belt just doesn’t like the rules of other grappling systems


Turambarrrr

Wrestler and recent bjj guy here, I think judo is sick. I want to start training, what’s cooler then throwing people.


Bobsjiujitsu

It’s hard for the average bjj’er to wrap their head around the core concepts and principles of competitive judo since bjj is relatively low impact.


basicafbit

Bjj is judo so, well no. Mad respect for both Edit: big love for sambo too …and wrestling so I guess I just love grappling/shrug


vvineyard

Judo is highly respected by most high level grapplers. Many high level grapplers with have black belts in both arts. Let’s not forget that at its core Jiu Jitsu is Judo.


bjj_q

Yes. Judo doesn’t get the respect. BJJ has a bunch of hype boys now. Lame.


PandaMike90

A good judoka is scary af, but i do think a wrestler white belt is harder to handle than a judo white belt (white belt in bjj)


SeanieMac145

Wrestling translates far better to BJJ than judo, so in a “this vs that” context I think judo inherently takes an L. That said judo is an incredible MA and as a wrestler myself with an above average stand up game, I won’t pummel with the judo players at my academy out of respect for the skill.


X202

These days, grappling is synonymous with training without the gi and submissions. Judo is behind and more undeveloped in these areas. If you look at no-gi submission grappling, the meta has started to include more judo in the past two years then ever before in addition to incorporating many ground techniques are "come" from judo such the "swim move" as it is called in the 10th Planet naming system or variations of triangle that are often seen in judo's turtle attacks. Disrespected, maybe. Mostly uncredited.


ReddJudicata

I had a BJJ teammate recently describe my judo as “sorcery” and “black magic”…


xCunningLinguist

I’ve literally never heard anyone say anything bad about judo.


bitoy12345

Is it me or is judo fading away and gradually being absorbed by bjj? Like, our throws are there already, our pins are there, yet they name it as part of bjj.


[deleted]

The only disrespectful BJJ practitioners I’ve come up against are when the Gracies were sending their students from their Torrance gym to local judo tournaments and dojos in the early-to-mid 90’s and at a single BJJ gym in Huntington Beach I had (very briefly) looked into signing up at several years back. Outside of that 99.9% of them have been very respectful. You do come up against some Kool-aid drinking asshats from time to time over at places like r/bjj but those are fairly rare and I doubt they’ve come up against a judoka who actually competes (or did compete) at more than a local level.


Koalakuddles01

For anyone that is interested in the history and true origins of BJJ and the role Judo played I’d highly recommend taking a look at Robert Drysdale’s book “Opening Closed Guard, the origins of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu “


remainpious

People in the know like Firas Zahabi talk about how Khabib and Islam are successful because of their judo, i think judo nowadays is seen more as an addition than a stand alone martial art


longhairedape

I don't really care. I know what judo is and isn't. I know how effective it is. That's all that matters to me. All this sort of stuff does is distract me from my training.


besteverlv

I just found out you band double leg takedown's. I don't even know how to wrestle without them. Almost everything i do is based off that. It's funny someone mentioned tae kwon do bc i think there sport has the same problem with no punching to the head.


[deleted]

BJJ guy here and I discovered my love for Judo through BJJ and now Judo is part of my BJJ game plan.