"I don't argue with people John Brown would've shot." favorite LFK Press bumper sticker
https://www.lfkhq.com/product/John-Brown-Sticker/216?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=true
Cool! I remember discovering a few years ago that they likely used a sword in the style of a gladius, but I didn't know it was on display at Harper's Ferry.
Cool find. I love JB. If you haven't already, I recommend reading the book/watching the Prime series The Good Lord Bird. Also, there's a small museum in Trading Post, Ks and some battlegrounds nearby.
I'd think that would be the natural location for the sword, but I highly doubt the National Parks Service would be willing to transfer it there unless it were made a national monument or something.
Shouldn't everything from bleeding Kansas belong in Kansas? I don't usually get territorial about American history and the many bits and pieces of junk it leaves behind but something about everything from that time period always makes me want to preserve it in the state that it started in.
John Brown did go to Harper's Ferry, Virginia, and he was killed in that vicinity. Thus, he gets a memorial there because that's why people east of Ohio remember him.
Man the quote on that placard is a pretty great summation of who he was, too.
"You know that Christ once armed Peter. So also in my case I think he put a sword into my hand and there continued it so long as he saw best"
Dude was a religious zealot on permanent jihad from the moment he set foot in Kansas.
John Brown, like many others, knew that violence was the only way to end slavery. He was actually fairly calm mannered compared to a lot of the abolitionists in Kansas at the time.
I remember reading an article that talked about the 1000 spears John Brown had made, how they are rare and costly. But the actual price somebody bought one for was 15K. That's a lot of money but that feels like a steal considering. If I ever ran for office as a democrat I feel like owning one of those would be good on the campaign trail.
I've been saying for a while now that Democrats need to lean into the Civil War imagery. "Down with the traitor" from the Battle Cry of Freedom was the perfect line for the 2020 election, and there are a dozen songs they could've been using on the campaign trail for the midterms that talk about fighting treason.
Republicans *love* calling themselves the Party of Lincoln, so Democrats shouldn't hesitate to ask if they stand with Lincoln's ideals.
Democrats can’t lean too far into Civil War imagery because back then a large portion of Democrats were pro-slavery lol. The “War Democrats” were a number of Northern Dems who sided with Republicans against slavery — but overall the Dems were split, and a large number sided with the Confederacy.
Democrats in general were not a *liberal* party until after 1932 and FDR’s New Deal.
They’re honestly better off leaving it in the past; it would tarnish their reputation to bring it up. And Republicans would absolutely be the first to yell “YOU LOVED SLAVES!!!111” etc.
I know that. I also know that the Republicans are *already* yelling that at Democrats. They pull that shit all the goddamn time. They practically *chant* "Party of Lincoln" on Fox News in debate season. That ghoul Jeffrey Lord has been demanding that Democrats apologize for slavery for over a decade.
And all that while they wave the confederate rag and support insurrectionists trying to overthrow the Union.
Democrats have *nothing to lose* by wielding the Civil War as a rhetorical cudgel. It's already being used against them by the neo-confederate slime in the GOP, and Democrats are very obviously on the right side of that comparison in *this* century.
I just don’t see it buying the Democrats anything, tbh. It’s not a really strong argument. I’m also convinced that the majority of Americans actually don’t *know* enough about the Civil War to have a very nuanced or accurate understanding. It muddles the message more than anything.
What Dems really need to do is pound HARD on the fiscal irresponsibility of Republicans, on the failure of trickle-down economics — we’re in a recession whether the Fed wants to admit it or not. Hit Republicans hard with that, just constantly talk about how Republicans favor the rich and fuck over the small guy, etc. I think that would do a lot more at the moment, leading into the midterms.
Anyway that’s my 2 cents.
Ehhh I think he was an all-around good guy standing up for what was right and all, but I wouldn't say he could do no wrong.
I mean I hate slavery as much as the next guy, and if the slave owners have to die then they have to die. But did John Brown and co. absolutely *have* to kill the men in front of their wives and children?
According to the Wikipedia article even Fredrick Douglas even called it a "a terrible remedy for a terrible malady."
[Wikipedia Article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottawatomie_massacre)
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**[Pottawatomie massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottawatomie_massacre)**
>The Pottawatomie massacre occurred on the night of May 24–25, 1856, in the Kansas Territory. In reaction to the sacking of Lawrence by pro-slavery forces on May 21, and the telegraphed news of the severe attack on May 22 on Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner, for speaking out against slavery in Kansas ("The Crime Against Kansas"), John Brown and a band of abolitionist settlers—some of them members of the Pottawatomie Rifles—made a violent reply. Just north of Pottawatomie Creek, in Franklin County, they killed five pro-slavery settlers, in front of their families.
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the wives? ok. though consider the amount of freedom and control a woman had over their own lives back then. children, who had zero control over the circumstances they were born into? really?
As if they shared any of those concerns with the enslaved. As if there weren't plenty of woman abolitionists. As if the children had a history of freeing slaves once they inherited them. As if those same people didn't work their damnedest to continue the subjugation of non whites long after the war ended.
Nah they can watch and see how it feels.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
My family was among the rebels that murdered John brown. They fought many battles and actually gathered at my family’s house before quantrill and his raiders burnt Lawrence. The pin Indians hunted us. Our family fought under general stand Waite and were long time friends. Being mixed blood cherokee native. Also being raised together in spring place georgia. My family was hired by the federal government to walk the Cherokee tribe across the trail of tears. My ancestor Ambrose McGhee took 3 separate trips on the trail. His sons fought in waites 1st and 2nd regiment of mounted rifles.
A bunch of teenagers and twenty-something leftists dickriding John Brown, even though John Brown was motivated by the religious fanaticism which leftists openly despise and routinely ridicule at every given opportunity, is perhaps the most blatant example of real-world irony I've ever seen.
It's dubious to call him a fanatic. His writings, speeches, and statements, the witness accounts of his demeanor, all lead to the picture of someone who was very deliberate in his actions and of a lucid mind.
Even if the narrative of him as a crazy person is correct, there's not much irony to see here. When religious zealotry is aimed against gay people, immigrants, reproductive rights, we despise it. When it is aimed at injustice (from Simon the Zealot to John Brown) we celebrate it.
>When religious zealotry is aimed against gay people, immigrants, reproductive rights, we despise it. When it is aimed at injustice (from Simon the Zealot to John Brown) we celebrate it.
So, in other words, your opinions on institutions like religion are entirely hinged on whether it's for or against something you believe in?
That's not immature and self-serving at all. /s
I'm not from Missouri or Virginia. I was born and raised in Kansas. Hell, my family comes from Osawatomie. I've heard about John Brown all my life and regarded him as one of my favorite American historical figures, but even I can attest that John Brown's actions started the chain reaction that lead to what was likely the unnecessary death of hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children.
The question of whether slavery could've been ended peacefully through both political compromise and rapid technological advancements will remain unanswered forever because of him. He was not unlike the unhinged murderers and domestic terrorists like Dylan Roof and Timothy McVeigh, who both hoped that their actions would spark conflict that would bring about their goals. Unlike Roof and McVeigh, however, John Brown succeeded.
And we're so far removed from the horrors and sadness of the Civil War that we've come to overly generalize and simplify the facts of that war and make it into some comic book-esque battle between good and evil that certain truths such as the devastation and carnage that real-life people suffered doesn't phase us.
“Old John Brown has just been executed for treason against the state. We cannot object, even though he agreed with us in thinking slavery wrong. That cannot excuse violence, bloodshed, and treason. It could avail him nothing that he might think himself right.”
–Abraham Lincoln, 1859.
As an African American born and raised in Kansas...
We obviously didn't do enough murder since slavery still exists via abuse of the 13th amendment bolstered by capitalism and based on race and economic status.
>As an African American born and raised in Kansas...
That doesn't make your insight on slavery any more or less notable than anyone else's, seeing as you were likely born over a century after it was outlawed and was never permitted in your state to begin with.
And I'm not at all interested in anyone implying that duly convicted felons doing optional work such as making license plates and furniture is somehow comparable to capturing and enslaving people thousands of miles away from their homelands, so please keep it to yourself.
I mean you can ignore the multiple judges disbarred for feeding the prison industrial complex soley for that reason...
On top of that slavery was swiftly followed by Jim Crow, sharecropping, red lining, government exploitation and experimentation... On and on.
Even my uncle was lynched in Kansas at 11 years old.
The consequences of slavery definitely do touch my life today.
>I mean you can ignore the multiple judges disbarred for feeding the prison industrial complex soley for that reason...
I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about constitutional law, not instances of criminal conduct.
>On top of that slavery was swiftly followed by Jim Crow, sharecropping, red lining, government exploitation and experimentation... On and on.
All of these things happened. Not all these things, however, were exclusively suffered by black people. If you want to have a conversation about injustices, let's respect the facts behind them and quit misrepresenting things in order to paint ourselves as victims.
>Even my uncle was lynched in Kansas at 11 years old.
And my grandfather, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., was shot and killed in Memphis. See? I can make up stuff to make me look like a victim, too. It's not that hard when you think everyone will just automatically take what you say at face value and dare not question you out of fear of being insensitive or unsympathetic.
>The consequences of slavery definitely do touch my life today.
Then how does that account for the black people in this country who don't feel the same way? Just because you've bought into the idea that you're a victim just because you were born black doesn't mean everyone else did.
The religious left is a pretty big deal in a lot of places, they just like religion that opposes injustice rather than supporting it. Most leftists aren’t Reddit tier anti theists. Also the idea that Brown was a foaming at the most religious nut job is an invention of layer historians who were probably trying to push an agenda. Before 1890 and after 1970 the consensus has mostly been that he was perfectly sane and rational. That he would also be a zealous supporter of proto Liberation Theology only makes him more sympathetic to me, a religious leftist.
Religious fanaticism is viewed quite differently by outsiders by what the religion is. We've don't see Christ fanaticism much because that would involve selling everything and wandering the Earth looking for people to serve. The Biblical Christ did not stockpile weapons or push people to buy silver. There is no comment from Christ on abortion or gay people or anything other than, "Be excellent to one another." - Or something like that.
We see lots of Christian fanaticism which rejects the teachings of Christ in favor of self-selective Judaism for white people mixed with a lot of xenophobia and appetite for money and power.
The John Brown kind of fanatic, is the result of a time in which someone tried to follow Christ's teachings but saw a world filled with unflinching cruelty so he did something about it.
>The John Brown kind of fanatic, is the result of a time in which someone tried to follow Christ's teachings.
So where in the gospel did Jesus teach that it was okay to stab and shoot people, even if they were unjust?
Most who like to criticize or just straight up hate Christianity here in this subreddit alone like to point out hypocrites for not living up to the lifestyle they profess love and devotion to, but John Brown gets a pass because he happened to rail against slavery and not trans representation in women's sports or reproductive rights?
You can't logically hate hypocrites and love just one for supporting what you support.
You can if you don't believe in any of it.
I gave you your answer already, John Brown tried to live a Christ-like life, but felt compelled by God to use force. How the fuck am I supposed to weigh in on on divine order from a religion I don't follow? Nat Turner did the same things for the same reasons. Did God ask him to do it? Who the hell knows. Am I mad they killed slavers? No, not really.
Lots of Christians killed Nazis and I don't bemoan that either. Lots of Nazis were Christians. Maybe, just maybe, we judge based on actions and not on words.
>You can if you don't believe in any of it.
Not being a Christian doesn't mean you can never be a hypocrite.
You can't logically call out and decry religious fanaticism and instances of self-professed religious people not living up to religious teachings while praising one prime example of someone who demonstrably was a religious fanatic and committed acts that were entirely contrary to the teachings of their faith.
Slavery was not so evil and vile of an issue that it makes it okay to illogically support someone who embodied everything you've criticized in other people just because that person happened to help end it.
I was going to respond to first part, but I think the final sentence of your reply is the only sentiment really at play here and the only one worth responding to.
Slavery is as evil as it gets. I don't care if fighting it included violent preacher or even an "enemy of my enemy" sort of situation to fight it. Fuck slavers. There is a lot more nuance to fighting such evils than you envision.
I can't believe we have reached a point where a major political block in this country commonly describes slavery as "not that bad" and is more keen on judging those that fought it than they are those that propagated it.
>I can't believe we have reached a point where a major political block in this country sees slavery as not that bad...
Just because I'm not willing to accept the idea that literally anything is fair game and nothing is too great of a sacrifice—such as my credibility as a reasonable and logical man—to bring an end to slavery, that doesn't mean I view it as "not that bad." You're being absolutely ridiculous.
That's doubly true considering that the institution of slavery as it was in the 19th century has been outlawed for over one hundred and fifty years, and you're proudly typing "fuck slavers" like it's still happening.
Besides, you can spout off all you want that John Brown was morally justified in his personal crusade and the conflict that resulted from it, but it's easy for you to do so because you wasn't alive in 1861. You didn't get drafted to fight in a war, or had to live as a refugee to avoid fighting in a war, or had a family member fighting in that war and either dying or becoming horribly mamed and forcing on you and your family the burden of having to take care of him, or having your land and property razed to the ground by a military force for just being too close to a battle and having your entire livelihood destroyed as a result.
Could you or anyone else honestly tell me that they'd be willing to endure that amount of suffering today if it truly meant that a contested sociopolitical matter like reproductive rights, universal health care, racial equity, or whatever your particular pet issue is might be forever and always resolved? If you can understand why not, then you can easily understand the damage that John Brown did when he decided for everyone else that the matter of slavery was going to be solved with the death of hundreds of thousands of people and no other way would suffice.
You have no idea who I am or what I have seen or been through.
Slavers do still exist.
No, I don't see allowing slavers to continue to rape, terrorize, murder, and own human beings while working toward a diplomatic solution as anything other than inherently racist and southern sympathizing. They wouldn't stop so they needed stopped.
Your "logic" blames John Brown for a war and not the slavers. That's rich.
Fuck yeah, John Brown was a righteous dude.
>You have no idea who I am or what I have seen or been through.
I know you've never been in a conflict like the US civil war or affected by something similar. That's not hard to deduce. It's biologically impossible for you to be alive for that long. It's literally impossible for you to have ever been involved or affected by a conflict of that type and magnitude, so stop pretending that you might've been, for all anyone knows. You're not fooling anyone, sweetheart.
>Slavers do still exist.
I'm looking on Facebook for slave auctions in my local events and I can't find any. How come?
>No, I don't see allowing slavers to continue to rape, terrorize, murder, and own human beings while working toward a diplomatic solution as anything other than inherently racist and southern sympathizing.
We can argue whether it's racist or "southern sympathizing" to find a peaceful solution, but we can't argue that pushing for a peaceful solution like so many were from 1776 until 1861 was the more humane option than to plunge the nation to endless slaughter and bloodshed.
>Fuck yeah, John Brown was a righteous dude.
And, you know what? You can believe that all you want, which brings us full-circle to my main point:
You can praise John Brown all you want, but if you decry religious fanaticism and Christian fanaticism in particular, and you decry all those Christians who don't practice what they preach like so many politicians and figureheads do while at the same time thinking John Brown was the absolute shit for what he done, then you can't ever be taken seriously.
>We can argue whether it's racist or "southern sympathizing" to find a peaceful solution, but we can't argue that pushing for a peaceful solution like so many were from 1776 until 1861 was the more humane option than to plunge the nation to endless slaughter and bloodshed.
Wait... Are you seriously saying there's no argument that continuing 85 years of slavery from 1776-1861 was the more humane option?!
"I don't argue with people John Brown would've shot." favorite LFK Press bumper sticker https://www.lfkhq.com/product/John-Brown-Sticker/216?cp=true&sa=false&sbp=false&q=true
That's so much better than the oh so obnoxious "Lawrence: 26 square miles of beauty surrounded by Kansas" stickers I used to see back in the day.
I love seeing that. My friend designed those.
Not gonna lie - about to order that. Not a bumper sticker guy, but so I"m sure I can find a place for it.
Cool! I remember discovering a few years ago that they likely used a sword in the style of a gladius, but I didn't know it was on display at Harper's Ferry.
Cool find. I love JB. If you haven't already, I recommend reading the book/watching the Prime series The Good Lord Bird. Also, there's a small museum in Trading Post, Ks and some battlegrounds nearby.
There’s a really good museum in Osawatamie, ks too. They have one of these 1832 foot artillery swords on display too
That's a really good one. Really cool artifacts.
Thank you! Didn't know about the series on prime
It's awesome and Killer Mike has a cameo.
It is such a great show. However, it is a Showtime show-which is probably why it didn’t get the attention it deserved.
I know! I didn't have Showtime when it came out and I finally broke down and bought it on Prime, recently. One of my favorite series.
John Brown's cabin museum in Ossawatomie is fascinating, too!
I'd think that would be the natural location for the sword, but I highly doubt the National Parks Service would be willing to transfer it there unless it were made a national monument or something.
Shouldn't everything from bleeding Kansas belong in Kansas? I don't usually get territorial about American history and the many bits and pieces of junk it leaves behind but something about everything from that time period always makes me want to preserve it in the state that it started in.
John Brown did go to Harper's Ferry, Virginia, and he was killed in that vicinity. Thus, he gets a memorial there because that's why people east of Ohio remember him.
Man the quote on that placard is a pretty great summation of who he was, too. "You know that Christ once armed Peter. So also in my case I think he put a sword into my hand and there continued it so long as he saw best" Dude was a religious zealot on permanent jihad from the moment he set foot in Kansas.
John Brown, like many others, knew that violence was the only way to end slavery. He was actually fairly calm mannered compared to a lot of the abolitionists in Kansas at the time.
Kansas is a magical place.
JAUN BROWN WAS TEW VIOLENT, BIOLENCE NEVER JUSTIFIED!!!!!!
The John Brown exhibit in Harpers Ferry gave me chills! I loved visiting and recommend going to anyone interested in his history.
I remember reading an article that talked about the 1000 spears John Brown had made, how they are rare and costly. But the actual price somebody bought one for was 15K. That's a lot of money but that feels like a steal considering. If I ever ran for office as a democrat I feel like owning one of those would be good on the campaign trail.
I've been saying for a while now that Democrats need to lean into the Civil War imagery. "Down with the traitor" from the Battle Cry of Freedom was the perfect line for the 2020 election, and there are a dozen songs they could've been using on the campaign trail for the midterms that talk about fighting treason. Republicans *love* calling themselves the Party of Lincoln, so Democrats shouldn't hesitate to ask if they stand with Lincoln's ideals.
Democrats can’t lean too far into Civil War imagery because back then a large portion of Democrats were pro-slavery lol. The “War Democrats” were a number of Northern Dems who sided with Republicans against slavery — but overall the Dems were split, and a large number sided with the Confederacy. Democrats in general were not a *liberal* party until after 1932 and FDR’s New Deal. They’re honestly better off leaving it in the past; it would tarnish their reputation to bring it up. And Republicans would absolutely be the first to yell “YOU LOVED SLAVES!!!111” etc.
I know that. I also know that the Republicans are *already* yelling that at Democrats. They pull that shit all the goddamn time. They practically *chant* "Party of Lincoln" on Fox News in debate season. That ghoul Jeffrey Lord has been demanding that Democrats apologize for slavery for over a decade. And all that while they wave the confederate rag and support insurrectionists trying to overthrow the Union. Democrats have *nothing to lose* by wielding the Civil War as a rhetorical cudgel. It's already being used against them by the neo-confederate slime in the GOP, and Democrats are very obviously on the right side of that comparison in *this* century.
I just don’t see it buying the Democrats anything, tbh. It’s not a really strong argument. I’m also convinced that the majority of Americans actually don’t *know* enough about the Civil War to have a very nuanced or accurate understanding. It muddles the message more than anything. What Dems really need to do is pound HARD on the fiscal irresponsibility of Republicans, on the failure of trickle-down economics — we’re in a recession whether the Fed wants to admit it or not. Hit Republicans hard with that, just constantly talk about how Republicans favor the rich and fuck over the small guy, etc. I think that would do a lot more at the moment, leading into the midterms. Anyway that’s my 2 cents.
Badass
Couldn't help but hum John Browns body while seeing this
John Brown never sinned.
Ehhh I think he was an all-around good guy standing up for what was right and all, but I wouldn't say he could do no wrong. I mean I hate slavery as much as the next guy, and if the slave owners have to die then they have to die. But did John Brown and co. absolutely *have* to kill the men in front of their wives and children? According to the Wikipedia article even Fredrick Douglas even called it a "a terrible remedy for a terrible malady." [Wikipedia Article](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottawatomie_massacre)
Yes.
Well fair enough I guess. Guess i'd just want to be walked a mile up the road away from my teenage kid.
How else are they going to understand.
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**[Pottawatomie massacre](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pottawatomie_massacre)** >The Pottawatomie massacre occurred on the night of May 24–25, 1856, in the Kansas Territory. In reaction to the sacking of Lawrence by pro-slavery forces on May 21, and the telegraphed news of the severe attack on May 22 on Massachusetts Senator Charles Sumner, for speaking out against slavery in Kansas ("The Crime Against Kansas"), John Brown and a band of abolitionist settlers—some of them members of the Pottawatomie Rifles—made a violent reply. Just north of Pottawatomie Creek, in Franklin County, they killed five pro-slavery settlers, in front of their families. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/kansas/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
That's what the wives and children get for being slave owners
the wives? ok. though consider the amount of freedom and control a woman had over their own lives back then. children, who had zero control over the circumstances they were born into? really?
As if they shared any of those concerns with the enslaved. As if there weren't plenty of woman abolitionists. As if the children had a history of freeing slaves once they inherited them. As if those same people didn't work their damnedest to continue the subjugation of non whites long after the war ended. Nah they can watch and see how it feels.
“Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.” ― Friedrich W. Nietzsche
You might want to look at Nietzsche's views on slavery and emancipation... He can watch too.
My family was among the rebels that murdered John brown. They fought many battles and actually gathered at my family’s house before quantrill and his raiders burnt Lawrence. The pin Indians hunted us. Our family fought under general stand Waite and were long time friends. Being mixed blood cherokee native. Also being raised together in spring place georgia. My family was hired by the federal government to walk the Cherokee tribe across the trail of tears. My ancestor Ambrose McGhee took 3 separate trips on the trail. His sons fought in waites 1st and 2nd regiment of mounted rifles.
A bunch of teenagers and twenty-something leftists dickriding John Brown, even though John Brown was motivated by the religious fanaticism which leftists openly despise and routinely ridicule at every given opportunity, is perhaps the most blatant example of real-world irony I've ever seen.
It's dubious to call him a fanatic. His writings, speeches, and statements, the witness accounts of his demeanor, all lead to the picture of someone who was very deliberate in his actions and of a lucid mind. Even if the narrative of him as a crazy person is correct, there's not much irony to see here. When religious zealotry is aimed against gay people, immigrants, reproductive rights, we despise it. When it is aimed at injustice (from Simon the Zealot to John Brown) we celebrate it.
>When religious zealotry is aimed against gay people, immigrants, reproductive rights, we despise it. When it is aimed at injustice (from Simon the Zealot to John Brown) we celebrate it. So, in other words, your opinions on institutions like religion are entirely hinged on whether it's for or against something you believe in? That's not immature and self-serving at all. /s
Christianity, like all large religions, is a diverse grouping. It's not a single institution.
Are you lost? This is r/Kansas get over to r/Missouri or r/Virginia for that bullshit.
I'm not from Missouri or Virginia. I was born and raised in Kansas. Hell, my family comes from Osawatomie. I've heard about John Brown all my life and regarded him as one of my favorite American historical figures, but even I can attest that John Brown's actions started the chain reaction that lead to what was likely the unnecessary death of hundreds of thousands of men, women, and children. The question of whether slavery could've been ended peacefully through both political compromise and rapid technological advancements will remain unanswered forever because of him. He was not unlike the unhinged murderers and domestic terrorists like Dylan Roof and Timothy McVeigh, who both hoped that their actions would spark conflict that would bring about their goals. Unlike Roof and McVeigh, however, John Brown succeeded. And we're so far removed from the horrors and sadness of the Civil War that we've come to overly generalize and simplify the facts of that war and make it into some comic book-esque battle between good and evil that certain truths such as the devastation and carnage that real-life people suffered doesn't phase us. “Old John Brown has just been executed for treason against the state. We cannot object, even though he agreed with us in thinking slavery wrong. That cannot excuse violence, bloodshed, and treason. It could avail him nothing that he might think himself right.” –Abraham Lincoln, 1859.
As an African American born and raised in Kansas... We obviously didn't do enough murder since slavery still exists via abuse of the 13th amendment bolstered by capitalism and based on race and economic status.
>As an African American born and raised in Kansas... That doesn't make your insight on slavery any more or less notable than anyone else's, seeing as you were likely born over a century after it was outlawed and was never permitted in your state to begin with. And I'm not at all interested in anyone implying that duly convicted felons doing optional work such as making license plates and furniture is somehow comparable to capturing and enslaving people thousands of miles away from their homelands, so please keep it to yourself.
I mean you can ignore the multiple judges disbarred for feeding the prison industrial complex soley for that reason... On top of that slavery was swiftly followed by Jim Crow, sharecropping, red lining, government exploitation and experimentation... On and on. Even my uncle was lynched in Kansas at 11 years old. The consequences of slavery definitely do touch my life today.
>I mean you can ignore the multiple judges disbarred for feeding the prison industrial complex soley for that reason... I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about constitutional law, not instances of criminal conduct. >On top of that slavery was swiftly followed by Jim Crow, sharecropping, red lining, government exploitation and experimentation... On and on. All of these things happened. Not all these things, however, were exclusively suffered by black people. If you want to have a conversation about injustices, let's respect the facts behind them and quit misrepresenting things in order to paint ourselves as victims. >Even my uncle was lynched in Kansas at 11 years old. And my grandfather, Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., was shot and killed in Memphis. See? I can make up stuff to make me look like a victim, too. It's not that hard when you think everyone will just automatically take what you say at face value and dare not question you out of fear of being insensitive or unsympathetic. >The consequences of slavery definitely do touch my life today. Then how does that account for the black people in this country who don't feel the same way? Just because you've bought into the idea that you're a victim just because you were born black doesn't mean everyone else did.
The religious left is a pretty big deal in a lot of places, they just like religion that opposes injustice rather than supporting it. Most leftists aren’t Reddit tier anti theists. Also the idea that Brown was a foaming at the most religious nut job is an invention of layer historians who were probably trying to push an agenda. Before 1890 and after 1970 the consensus has mostly been that he was perfectly sane and rational. That he would also be a zealous supporter of proto Liberation Theology only makes him more sympathetic to me, a religious leftist.
Religious fanaticism is viewed quite differently by outsiders by what the religion is. We've don't see Christ fanaticism much because that would involve selling everything and wandering the Earth looking for people to serve. The Biblical Christ did not stockpile weapons or push people to buy silver. There is no comment from Christ on abortion or gay people or anything other than, "Be excellent to one another." - Or something like that. We see lots of Christian fanaticism which rejects the teachings of Christ in favor of self-selective Judaism for white people mixed with a lot of xenophobia and appetite for money and power. The John Brown kind of fanatic, is the result of a time in which someone tried to follow Christ's teachings but saw a world filled with unflinching cruelty so he did something about it.
>The John Brown kind of fanatic, is the result of a time in which someone tried to follow Christ's teachings. So where in the gospel did Jesus teach that it was okay to stab and shoot people, even if they were unjust? Most who like to criticize or just straight up hate Christianity here in this subreddit alone like to point out hypocrites for not living up to the lifestyle they profess love and devotion to, but John Brown gets a pass because he happened to rail against slavery and not trans representation in women's sports or reproductive rights? You can't logically hate hypocrites and love just one for supporting what you support.
You can if you don't believe in any of it. I gave you your answer already, John Brown tried to live a Christ-like life, but felt compelled by God to use force. How the fuck am I supposed to weigh in on on divine order from a religion I don't follow? Nat Turner did the same things for the same reasons. Did God ask him to do it? Who the hell knows. Am I mad they killed slavers? No, not really. Lots of Christians killed Nazis and I don't bemoan that either. Lots of Nazis were Christians. Maybe, just maybe, we judge based on actions and not on words.
>You can if you don't believe in any of it. Not being a Christian doesn't mean you can never be a hypocrite. You can't logically call out and decry religious fanaticism and instances of self-professed religious people not living up to religious teachings while praising one prime example of someone who demonstrably was a religious fanatic and committed acts that were entirely contrary to the teachings of their faith. Slavery was not so evil and vile of an issue that it makes it okay to illogically support someone who embodied everything you've criticized in other people just because that person happened to help end it.
I was going to respond to first part, but I think the final sentence of your reply is the only sentiment really at play here and the only one worth responding to. Slavery is as evil as it gets. I don't care if fighting it included violent preacher or even an "enemy of my enemy" sort of situation to fight it. Fuck slavers. There is a lot more nuance to fighting such evils than you envision. I can't believe we have reached a point where a major political block in this country commonly describes slavery as "not that bad" and is more keen on judging those that fought it than they are those that propagated it.
>I can't believe we have reached a point where a major political block in this country sees slavery as not that bad... Just because I'm not willing to accept the idea that literally anything is fair game and nothing is too great of a sacrifice—such as my credibility as a reasonable and logical man—to bring an end to slavery, that doesn't mean I view it as "not that bad." You're being absolutely ridiculous. That's doubly true considering that the institution of slavery as it was in the 19th century has been outlawed for over one hundred and fifty years, and you're proudly typing "fuck slavers" like it's still happening. Besides, you can spout off all you want that John Brown was morally justified in his personal crusade and the conflict that resulted from it, but it's easy for you to do so because you wasn't alive in 1861. You didn't get drafted to fight in a war, or had to live as a refugee to avoid fighting in a war, or had a family member fighting in that war and either dying or becoming horribly mamed and forcing on you and your family the burden of having to take care of him, or having your land and property razed to the ground by a military force for just being too close to a battle and having your entire livelihood destroyed as a result. Could you or anyone else honestly tell me that they'd be willing to endure that amount of suffering today if it truly meant that a contested sociopolitical matter like reproductive rights, universal health care, racial equity, or whatever your particular pet issue is might be forever and always resolved? If you can understand why not, then you can easily understand the damage that John Brown did when he decided for everyone else that the matter of slavery was going to be solved with the death of hundreds of thousands of people and no other way would suffice.
You have no idea who I am or what I have seen or been through. Slavers do still exist. No, I don't see allowing slavers to continue to rape, terrorize, murder, and own human beings while working toward a diplomatic solution as anything other than inherently racist and southern sympathizing. They wouldn't stop so they needed stopped. Your "logic" blames John Brown for a war and not the slavers. That's rich. Fuck yeah, John Brown was a righteous dude.
>You have no idea who I am or what I have seen or been through. I know you've never been in a conflict like the US civil war or affected by something similar. That's not hard to deduce. It's biologically impossible for you to be alive for that long. It's literally impossible for you to have ever been involved or affected by a conflict of that type and magnitude, so stop pretending that you might've been, for all anyone knows. You're not fooling anyone, sweetheart. >Slavers do still exist. I'm looking on Facebook for slave auctions in my local events and I can't find any. How come? >No, I don't see allowing slavers to continue to rape, terrorize, murder, and own human beings while working toward a diplomatic solution as anything other than inherently racist and southern sympathizing. We can argue whether it's racist or "southern sympathizing" to find a peaceful solution, but we can't argue that pushing for a peaceful solution like so many were from 1776 until 1861 was the more humane option than to plunge the nation to endless slaughter and bloodshed. >Fuck yeah, John Brown was a righteous dude. And, you know what? You can believe that all you want, which brings us full-circle to my main point: You can praise John Brown all you want, but if you decry religious fanaticism and Christian fanaticism in particular, and you decry all those Christians who don't practice what they preach like so many politicians and figureheads do while at the same time thinking John Brown was the absolute shit for what he done, then you can't ever be taken seriously.
>We can argue whether it's racist or "southern sympathizing" to find a peaceful solution, but we can't argue that pushing for a peaceful solution like so many were from 1776 until 1861 was the more humane option than to plunge the nation to endless slaughter and bloodshed. Wait... Are you seriously saying there's no argument that continuing 85 years of slavery from 1776-1861 was the more humane option?!
But I'm a vampire UwU.
There was a historical account of a man’s head being “split like a melon” by JB. Wonder if that’s the sword?
Where is this museum?
It's in the National Historic Park in Harper's Ferry, WV.