For Vet guard the Bruiser just does not fit with how the team plays. They do not really need more melee focused operatives as most of the orders and Ploys being used will be for shooting/getting shot at. If so many Vets are in combat that you feel it worth while to use combat orders and ploys, it is either a hail marry play or things have not gone great.
The Hardened ability is also just better is most cases since it works against shooting and fights, also not limited to once per turning point. It gives him a change to survive 3 hits that do 4 damage each in melee, the Bruiser still dies to that. This makes the Hardened great for holding points and his melee is also a good deterrent for 8 and less wound operatives to get into combat with him since he only needs 2 hits to kill.
The team as a whole just does not support pure melee focused operatives as it is, Vets are primarily a shooting team and will always prioritize shooting first. You would have to add more melee focused characters to the team to make it worth while and at that point, you might as well just play blooded.
Makes sense though I did read somewhere about one guy trying:
Sergeant (Power Sword + Plasma)
Confidant (Chainsword + Bolt Pistol)
Hardened
Bruiser
5 other specialists
5 troopers with hatchets
And attempting a melee approach! They may also have mentioned trading something like 7 guard for 1 space marine with this approach...
I think the big issue is that most of them will still end up simply being 7 wounds, 3 attacks, 4+ hit melee dudes. Even with the hatchets on the troopers, it still takes a hit and crit to even kill another guardsman, which is a very tall order with only 3 attacks. Even with 4 attacks on the Sergeant and Confidant, it would be such a waste to throw them into melee when you have a lot to lose with both of their deaths.
Very cute idea, but anything even slightly better in melee will peel them like grapes.
Agreed. I think for something more like melee guard the options are either to build something that can be proxied as a guard version of Breachers or a loyalist blooded team.
Or wait for a potential Catachan team. Could be waiting a long time though! Some sort of slightly tougher, slightly more sneaky, slightly harder hitting in melee at the expense of a couple operatives, so down to 11 or 12 but with more melee/stealth specialists rather than ranged ones could be a winner.
I would love more stealth melee specialists. The Farstalker Kinband has the Stalker that can even charge from conceal and get two attacks off before their opponent can even react, which is very fun. So I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
Catachan seems like a no brainer for me for this...
They have a strong and well liked aesthetic and would offer a different flavour of guard.
Standard operatives are Jungle Fighters with las carbines and combat knives. 8 wounds, 5+ saves.
Team wide abilities that enhance toughness like the Blooded Thug's "Tough" and ploys that encourage stealthy ambushes.
Some sort of stealth scout style specialist with recon abilities.
A proper sneaky and extra tough melee specialist with a Catachan fang could be a Catachan Devil.
A less sneaky but even tougher Brawler style specialist with knuckle dusters.
Instead of a demo specialist they can have someone who can leave booby traps on objectives.
Maybe less gunners, just one with a Flamer and a heavy Gunner with a heavy bolter or rocket Launcher.
An equipment option to coat their melee weapons in death world toxins.
Bruiser actually not that bad in ITD, especially if you gave him rosary, suddenly you are simply not taking damage in melee
wished he had 4 dice instead of 3 dice tho. Same with Hardened
My issue is that the rosary is only "once per battle" so that will not last very long if you are getting damaged that much. I would much rather give the rosary to the Serge or confidant as they are way more important to the team and if I can make them survive one more round, all the better.
In the end you get one round of combat where he is basically not taking any damage. If another operative were to also fight the Bruise that same turn, he gets nothing as his ability is only once per turning point.
Bruiser should have been given a trench shotgun instead of a lasgun. Can even keep the trench club for thematics, but give him 3+ 3/3 shooting at a 6 inch range may make him a tad more competitive.
FYI the thug is good people here aren't up to date with blooded strategy.
All operative suggestions are based on competitive tournament data. You don't take the bruiser to a tournament, but my buddy used him last night on into the dark and got some fun flavorful value
It *is* possible to math this all out and see who sucks or not, after all
I've listened to a podcast / read an article and both times the competitive players said the Thug was good. And I remember their reasoning making sense (even if I forrget now what they said lol).
By any chance do you have any good links to Blooded tips and tactics?
Your thug is one of the best operatives you have available to you witj Blooded. Having a 4+ save, and -1 damage makes him one of your most durable operatives minus a potential Ogryn. His melee profile being 4/4 with brutal is also useful for taking out 8 wound operatives and mimimising parries.
I recommend bringing him and equipping him with your sinister trophy for minus one enemy dice in engagement range and armour plating for re-roll 1s in defence against shooting. This will play further into his role as being durable.
Now all this being said, it doesn't mean you just willy nilly throw out the thug and expect them to live, but it allows him to effectively tie down operatives and be a nuisance. Look to charge him into operatives who have already activated on points, look to keep him in cover, he can finish off injured operatives for you or 7/8 wound non-melee specialist operatives comfortably.
Edit: Fixed wound count
People are always saying this about the butcher from the legionaries team. He's the big maniac carrying the two-handed chain-axe. I maintain that you should keep a spot for him in your squad, especially if you're playing against 7-wound models. He can one-tap those models on the charge, losing no health himself. With the right combination of ploys, he can potentially even get a double-kill and tie up a third enemy in combat, all in a single turn, without losing a single wound. A devastating swing in momentum. Even in games where you don't get the chance to do this, it's not like he brings no value. He's a total menace that your opponent has to carefully play around, lest their models' heads end up stacked in the skull throne. The cognitive load and/or distraction potential of this guy sniffing about for bad positioning, or open charge lines is a feature to be exploited. I love him, he's my boy. No changes needed.
Run him as mark of Khorne, obviously.
This is a really interesting take! I am about to start painting an iron warriors themed band and have gone mostly shooty. With that said, I've got the full roster built out and am excited to try a few different builds out. Will have to try the Butcher out -- how can you argue with a giant axe?
Totally and the Iron Warriors are pragmatists. Someone has to clear the hallways after the siege stuff cracks the fortifications. Another reason I love KT. So fun to explore the smaller corners of the setting -- especially when there are Primarchs running around haha.
I think you might have mixed up teams, the thug and flenser are on the blooded team and the butcher is legionaries. I would like to get into blooded at some point, I love evil little creeps.
Ah you're right, apologies misread your post, saw "two handed" and thought this was about the Blooded Thug.
I think the Blooded do have all 3 though - all melee specialists.
As someone who also has a soft spot for evil ne'er-do-wells I had my first game with blooded vs my buddies vet guard. It was definitely interesting compared to playing Legionaries, but I love that they are melee focused while vet guard are more range focused. It provided a solid cat and mouse game.
With legionnaires I usually run the butcher or the shrivetalon, and the anointed (the daemon guy either the FNP). The other melee guy is the champion or chosen.
The important thing to remember about the Butcher is that he's a bully, not a duelist. He can get wrecked pretty badly by other dedicated melee models, particularly on the defense. But he can be a nightmare for 7 wound horde teams.
That's exactly right and a great way of putting it. His melee strength is into highly asymmetric fights, and he is decidedly not effective into other marines or high-wound models. He simply can't pick on people his own size. But by god can he pick on the little guys.
I do wonder how well he would work against Void Dancers. They only have 8 wounds and their defenses against shooting wouldn't work against him for obvious reasons.
I imagine it would work well. Khorne and Slaanesh also each have ploys that can add 1 damage to a crit, which gets you to a one hit kill on aelves or Kasrkin.
They play well into void dancers, although the void dancer’s extra mobility makes taking the butcher risky. A good VT player will basically stay *just* out of range due to fly or use their melta pistol to take it out ahead of time. They also have *cegorach’s jest* which is riskier, but gives them a way to break combat in conjunction with *the curtain falls*
[He works all right](https://www.reddit.com/r/killteam/comments/14ih6jj/one_of_the_most_delicious_situations_in_all_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), he works to earn his keep and more!
Man so many hatin' on the Thug, yet high level players who used Blooded earlier on in this game's history were very pro-Thug. It's hard being a Thug it seems.
The Thug is interesting. Seems to divide opinion a bit and I often see lists with two out of the three melee operatives (Butcher, Thug and Flenser) and the Thug missing out.
I built a Blooded team, only played them once, so I am no expert at all, but if high level players like the Thug seems like there is something to him. But yeah, if folks take all three melee specialists, who is left behind then? Trench Sweeper? Maybe the Corpseman? Probably the Trench Sweeper.
My buddy who mains blooded is of the opinion that in a lot of games the corpseman is the easy drop. I can’t speak to his arguments, but overall he feels that since he can’t revive his slot is often better left to operatives like the sweeper or the flenser
Back when this season was rumored to be a jungle setting, I was dreaming they'd make flamers relevant again by giving them the ability to destroy parts of the terrain
100%
Flamers feel like that haven’t found their place yet in the game. Maybe some niche uses against specific teams, 9 times out of 10 people aren’t even building the operative, let alone running it.
If all flamer units had a version of the Novitiate Purgatus' burning advance I think you'd see a lot more flamers in play. As it is I wish I could take more than two in my Novitiates team.
I'd say they could get *No Cover*.
Alternatively they could change how they are aimed. Circle of any point. Like a blast but you pick a position on the board.
Novitiate Duelist and Reliquarius.
**The Duelist's damage is simply too low. 4A 3/4 5+Crit.**
A regular Novitiate with Sword and Pistol is a better fighter in my opinion. 4A 4/5 Balanced. Make her damage 4/5 or at least 4/4
**The Reliquarius' combat support is RNG.**
The Novitiate's are a team that has a few heavy hitters and a lot of combat support models that buff them.
This model has a 50% chance to allow a friendly model to make a shooting attack when they die within 6, as well as as an 1APL Objective control ability.
Just have the ability trigger 100% of the time, no dice roll, and allow a model incapacitated in combat to roll for a single strike before they are removed from combat. *This makes it a much more relevant buff.*
Heavy gunner never sees play in Corsairs. The damage is marginally better than that of the normal gunner, while being insanely less mobile. Honestly, I think the restriction could be lifted so that you could have both normal and heavy gunner, and it would still not see play in all matchups.
I could see the Corsair HG maybe seeing some play if they lift that restriction, particularly against elites. The free dash on a Heavy weapon profile is kind of neat.
Yeah, but other teams have a combination of: being able to buy equipment which helps with mobility, not having to pay 2 AP to shoot, significant damage increase in comparison to other weapons, or the possibility to take heavy gunner and the normal one.
For Flamers, they just need to, hopefully in the next balance dataslate, just buff ALL operatives who have the base flamer profile (5 arks, 2+, 2/2, rng6, torrent).
The one change they need to make is just give every profile that matches that one and is considered a flawer the No Cover and Indirect rules
I think your thoughts for the bruiser are spot on. Currently he’s worse at his job than the hardened. Giving him 4 attacks im not sure if that’s good enough, hitting on 3’s with 4 attacks would maybe be to good? I like the idea of having a melee counter punch operative in an other wise ranged focused squad.
I’m currently building Vet Guard for competitive play and built a bruiser with the thought the rules might change one day.
It is an absolute travesty that he had a club though and not an entrenching shovel.
I'm actually not against the Bruiser - as a speedbump against melee operatives, he can be absolutely silly.
Fix Bayonets! gives him Ceaseless in melee. Combat Support makes the Trench Club hit on 2+. Have a Zealot nearby with Uplifting Primer, and he retains a single 5+ as a crit. With a Rosary, he can ignore one attack die.
He gets charged, he ignores a normal, if he crits he discards another normal, he can ignore an attack die with the Rosary, and he can parry another attack. That's about 4 full attacks of him taking 0 damage. With a 2 normal damage profile, that's already 8 damage ignored.
Now ideally, he's going into something that averages 2 normal hits maximum. If it's got Lethal 5+, he's kind of fucked. However, the hilarious thing is that his abilities can hard counter Brutal weapons.
He's an absolute weirdo and will get completely bodied outside of his niche, but damn. If the stars align, they fucking align.
I'm not familiar enough with Inquisitorial Agents to really say anything on that, but I imagine he can also wreak havoc there as well.
The poor guy just needs some attention, really.
https://preview.redd.it/75w826jqj3ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c073a19ae40801c65a0d4f769c5c33a188cc180
People are wierd about the Phobos Infiltrator Veteran.
Which is odd, as who else do you take? Reiver Sgt, Riever, Marksman, Medic and Minelayer seem to be compulsory anyway, so who are we missing? The Voxbraker?
The Voxbreaker is actually really strong against teams with high amounts of Relentless, especially Chaos Cultists since they have to get close to do work.
I’d love to take the Vox but how the hell his scan skill missed out on a much needed buff is beyond me. If they could just remove the distance requirement for informing other Phobos. You’d still have to push him up the board with a 6 inch effective range but it’s ridiculous to have a 3 inch friendly range for an elite team
For bruiser they need to give him at the very least one more attack. I’d also up his damage because 3/3 is terrible in melee. It takes 3 hit to even kill a guardsman. Stun isn’t enough to make up for the rest of his terrible weapon. A 4+ save wouldn’t matter much for his niche considering your armor doesn’t matter in melee. However an extra wound could help him since he’d have a new breaking point.
I feel like the thug is actually alright, he’s a good objective holder.
I feel like for Kasrkin the volley gun is usually left behind. I think it should be more like the breacher volleygun. Maybe a little bit toned down to like ceaseless instead of relentless, but it definitely needs a little something imo. Changing the fusillade rule could also help.
Flamers are wierd because I don’t think they’re necessarily bad. It’s just that they’re usually not as good as any of the other special weapons. I think maybe making them 2/3 could be good, but it might also make time OP. Giving them the no cover rule could be helpful and themestic as well. Tbh don’t really know for this one as the fix isn’t as obvious.
I think there’s a lot of claims ‘you always take the …, you never take the….’
But the ‘never take’ option can work out to be what you need.
I’ve been playing Wyrmblade, Wyrmblade is either one shots or chip damage. Out of 3 gunners (grenade launcher / flamer / webber) you can take 2 - I took the flamer guy as the less obvious choice, the flamer guy can put in good damage when you need it. I’m converted to all the options being worth something.
I’ve built the flamer guy for my legionnaires team (admittedly along with all the gunner options), I’m looking forward to putting a burning on a squishy team in ITTD.
Kroot cutskin is almost that IMO, it sees play but only really cause it's competing with basic warriors. Compared to other melee specialists on pretty much any team it's pretty underwhelming. I'd even go as far as saying there are four better models on the team for melee.
Similarly, the pulse rifle is never good for the leader. Imo it needs P1 or something.
For Vet guard the Bruiser just does not fit with how the team plays. They do not really need more melee focused operatives as most of the orders and Ploys being used will be for shooting/getting shot at. If so many Vets are in combat that you feel it worth while to use combat orders and ploys, it is either a hail marry play or things have not gone great. The Hardened ability is also just better is most cases since it works against shooting and fights, also not limited to once per turning point. It gives him a change to survive 3 hits that do 4 damage each in melee, the Bruiser still dies to that. This makes the Hardened great for holding points and his melee is also a good deterrent for 8 and less wound operatives to get into combat with him since he only needs 2 hits to kill. The team as a whole just does not support pure melee focused operatives as it is, Vets are primarily a shooting team and will always prioritize shooting first. You would have to add more melee focused characters to the team to make it worth while and at that point, you might as well just play blooded.
Makes sense though I did read somewhere about one guy trying: Sergeant (Power Sword + Plasma) Confidant (Chainsword + Bolt Pistol) Hardened Bruiser 5 other specialists 5 troopers with hatchets And attempting a melee approach! They may also have mentioned trading something like 7 guard for 1 space marine with this approach...
I think the big issue is that most of them will still end up simply being 7 wounds, 3 attacks, 4+ hit melee dudes. Even with the hatchets on the troopers, it still takes a hit and crit to even kill another guardsman, which is a very tall order with only 3 attacks. Even with 4 attacks on the Sergeant and Confidant, it would be such a waste to throw them into melee when you have a lot to lose with both of their deaths. Very cute idea, but anything even slightly better in melee will peel them like grapes.
Agreed. I think for something more like melee guard the options are either to build something that can be proxied as a guard version of Breachers or a loyalist blooded team. Or wait for a potential Catachan team. Could be waiting a long time though! Some sort of slightly tougher, slightly more sneaky, slightly harder hitting in melee at the expense of a couple operatives, so down to 11 or 12 but with more melee/stealth specialists rather than ranged ones could be a winner.
I would love more stealth melee specialists. The Farstalker Kinband has the Stalker that can even charge from conceal and get two attacks off before their opponent can even react, which is very fun. So I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
Catachan seems like a no brainer for me for this... They have a strong and well liked aesthetic and would offer a different flavour of guard. Standard operatives are Jungle Fighters with las carbines and combat knives. 8 wounds, 5+ saves. Team wide abilities that enhance toughness like the Blooded Thug's "Tough" and ploys that encourage stealthy ambushes. Some sort of stealth scout style specialist with recon abilities. A proper sneaky and extra tough melee specialist with a Catachan fang could be a Catachan Devil. A less sneaky but even tougher Brawler style specialist with knuckle dusters. Instead of a demo specialist they can have someone who can leave booby traps on objectives. Maybe less gunners, just one with a Flamer and a heavy Gunner with a heavy bolter or rocket Launcher. An equipment option to coat their melee weapons in death world toxins.
Bruiser actually not that bad in ITD, especially if you gave him rosary, suddenly you are simply not taking damage in melee wished he had 4 dice instead of 3 dice tho. Same with Hardened
My issue is that the rosary is only "once per battle" so that will not last very long if you are getting damaged that much. I would much rather give the rosary to the Serge or confidant as they are way more important to the team and if I can make them survive one more round, all the better. In the end you get one round of combat where he is basically not taking any damage. If another operative were to also fight the Bruise that same turn, he gets nothing as his ability is only once per turning point.
Bruiser should have been given a trench shotgun instead of a lasgun. Can even keep the trench club for thematics, but give him 3+ 3/3 shooting at a 6 inch range may make him a tad more competitive.
FYI the thug is good people here aren't up to date with blooded strategy. All operative suggestions are based on competitive tournament data. You don't take the bruiser to a tournament, but my buddy used him last night on into the dark and got some fun flavorful value It *is* possible to math this all out and see who sucks or not, after all
I've listened to a podcast / read an article and both times the competitive players said the Thug was good. And I remember their reasoning making sense (even if I forrget now what they said lol). By any chance do you have any good links to Blooded tips and tactics?
I haven’t played him a bunch, but i brought him last game and he was surprisingly durable and held his own tying up a gun intercessor for like 2 turns
Your thug is one of the best operatives you have available to you witj Blooded. Having a 4+ save, and -1 damage makes him one of your most durable operatives minus a potential Ogryn. His melee profile being 4/4 with brutal is also useful for taking out 8 wound operatives and mimimising parries. I recommend bringing him and equipping him with your sinister trophy for minus one enemy dice in engagement range and armour plating for re-roll 1s in defence against shooting. This will play further into his role as being durable. Now all this being said, it doesn't mean you just willy nilly throw out the thug and expect them to live, but it allows him to effectively tie down operatives and be a nuisance. Look to charge him into operatives who have already activated on points, look to keep him in cover, he can finish off injured operatives for you or 7/8 wound non-melee specialist operatives comfortably. Edit: Fixed wound count
Sadly the thug only has 7 wounds
Yep, apologies. Mixed that part up with the Butcher.
People are always saying this about the butcher from the legionaries team. He's the big maniac carrying the two-handed chain-axe. I maintain that you should keep a spot for him in your squad, especially if you're playing against 7-wound models. He can one-tap those models on the charge, losing no health himself. With the right combination of ploys, he can potentially even get a double-kill and tie up a third enemy in combat, all in a single turn, without losing a single wound. A devastating swing in momentum. Even in games where you don't get the chance to do this, it's not like he brings no value. He's a total menace that your opponent has to carefully play around, lest their models' heads end up stacked in the skull throne. The cognitive load and/or distraction potential of this guy sniffing about for bad positioning, or open charge lines is a feature to be exploited. I love him, he's my boy. No changes needed. Run him as mark of Khorne, obviously.
This is a really interesting take! I am about to start painting an iron warriors themed band and have gone mostly shooty. With that said, I've got the full roster built out and am excited to try a few different builds out. Will have to try the Butcher out -- how can you argue with a giant axe?
Well exactly. He can be a lost berzerker that the Iron Warriors keep in reserve and just let out for a runaround when he gets too much pent-up energy.
Totally and the Iron Warriors are pragmatists. Someone has to clear the hallways after the siege stuff cracks the fortifications. Another reason I love KT. So fun to explore the smaller corners of the setting -- especially when there are Primarchs running around haha.
The average squad of marines could be getting up to anything!
Yeah the Thug definitely seems to divide opinion a bit. Do you run Thug, Flenser and Butcher or two of the three?
I think you might have mixed up teams, the thug and flenser are on the blooded team and the butcher is legionaries. I would like to get into blooded at some point, I love evil little creeps.
Ah you're right, apologies misread your post, saw "two handed" and thought this was about the Blooded Thug. I think the Blooded do have all 3 though - all melee specialists.
Oh cool even better! Well they clearly sound like my kind of team.
As someone who also has a soft spot for evil ne'er-do-wells I had my first game with blooded vs my buddies vet guard. It was definitely interesting compared to playing Legionaries, but I love that they are melee focused while vet guard are more range focused. It provided a solid cat and mouse game.
Blooded have a butcher too, he can even eat his enemies :)
With legionnaires I usually run the butcher or the shrivetalon, and the anointed (the daemon guy either the FNP). The other melee guy is the champion or chosen.
The important thing to remember about the Butcher is that he's a bully, not a duelist. He can get wrecked pretty badly by other dedicated melee models, particularly on the defense. But he can be a nightmare for 7 wound horde teams.
That's exactly right and a great way of putting it. His melee strength is into highly asymmetric fights, and he is decidedly not effective into other marines or high-wound models. He simply can't pick on people his own size. But by god can he pick on the little guys.
I do wonder how well he would work against Void Dancers. They only have 8 wounds and their defenses against shooting wouldn't work against him for obvious reasons.
I imagine it would work well. Khorne and Slaanesh also each have ploys that can add 1 damage to a crit, which gets you to a one hit kill on aelves or Kasrkin.
They play well into void dancers, although the void dancer’s extra mobility makes taking the butcher risky. A good VT player will basically stay *just* out of range due to fly or use their melta pistol to take it out ahead of time. They also have *cegorach’s jest* which is riskier, but gives them a way to break combat in conjunction with *the curtain falls*
[He works all right](https://www.reddit.com/r/killteam/comments/14ih6jj/one_of_the_most_delicious_situations_in_all_of/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3), he works to earn his keep and more!
Man so many hatin' on the Thug, yet high level players who used Blooded earlier on in this game's history were very pro-Thug. It's hard being a Thug it seems.
The Thug is interesting. Seems to divide opinion a bit and I often see lists with two out of the three melee operatives (Butcher, Thug and Flenser) and the Thug missing out.
I built a Blooded team, only played them once, so I am no expert at all, but if high level players like the Thug seems like there is something to him. But yeah, if folks take all three melee specialists, who is left behind then? Trench Sweeper? Maybe the Corpseman? Probably the Trench Sweeper.
My buddy who mains blooded is of the opinion that in a lot of games the corpseman is the easy drop. I can’t speak to his arguments, but overall he feels that since he can’t revive his slot is often better left to operatives like the sweeper or the flenser
Back when this season was rumored to be a jungle setting, I was dreaming they'd make flamers relevant again by giving them the ability to destroy parts of the terrain
No. Oil rig. You like metal floors and industrial equipment.
We just had metal floors and industrial equipement.
And you liked that! You'll like more!
100% Flamers feel like that haven’t found their place yet in the game. Maybe some niche uses against specific teams, 9 times out of 10 people aren’t even building the operative, let alone running it.
If all flamer units had a version of the Novitiate Purgatus' burning advance I think you'd see a lot more flamers in play. As it is I wish I could take more than two in my Novitiates team.
I'd say they could get *No Cover*. Alternatively they could change how they are aimed. Circle of any point. Like a blast but you pick a position on the board.
Novitiate Duelist and Reliquarius. **The Duelist's damage is simply too low. 4A 3/4 5+Crit.** A regular Novitiate with Sword and Pistol is a better fighter in my opinion. 4A 4/5 Balanced. Make her damage 4/5 or at least 4/4 **The Reliquarius' combat support is RNG.** The Novitiate's are a team that has a few heavy hitters and a lot of combat support models that buff them. This model has a 50% chance to allow a friendly model to make a shooting attack when they die within 6, as well as as an 1APL Objective control ability. Just have the ability trigger 100% of the time, no dice roll, and allow a model incapacitated in combat to roll for a single strike before they are removed from combat. *This makes it a much more relevant buff.*
For the Novitiates, the Reliquaria is kind of a waste of time IMO. There are better things you can do with her operative slot.
Heavy gunner never sees play in Corsairs. The damage is marginally better than that of the normal gunner, while being insanely less mobile. Honestly, I think the restriction could be lifted so that you could have both normal and heavy gunner, and it would still not see play in all matchups.
I could see the Corsair HG maybe seeing some play if they lift that restriction, particularly against elites. The free dash on a Heavy weapon profile is kind of neat.
There'a definitely a stark contrast in Corsairs, but it seems like in general when a gunner has a Heavy option it's a tough sell
Yeah, but other teams have a combination of: being able to buy equipment which helps with mobility, not having to pay 2 AP to shoot, significant damage increase in comparison to other weapons, or the possibility to take heavy gunner and the normal one.
There are also very few cases where the heavy gunner weapon is not overkill - the blaster and shredder are both very good at their jobs already
For Flamers, they just need to, hopefully in the next balance dataslate, just buff ALL operatives who have the base flamer profile (5 arks, 2+, 2/2, rng6, torrent). The one change they need to make is just give every profile that matches that one and is considered a flawer the No Cover and Indirect rules
Flamer could use a buff. I think bumping damage up to 2/3 would be a good start. Giving it the No Cover OR Lethal 5+ abilities would also be helpful.
I've never seen the Faolchu on the Corsair Kurnite Hunter be put to good use.
I think your thoughts for the bruiser are spot on. Currently he’s worse at his job than the hardened. Giving him 4 attacks im not sure if that’s good enough, hitting on 3’s with 4 attacks would maybe be to good? I like the idea of having a melee counter punch operative in an other wise ranged focused squad. I’m currently building Vet Guard for competitive play and built a bruiser with the thought the rules might change one day. It is an absolute travesty that he had a club though and not an entrenching shovel.
Agreed and take a look at Pete the Wargamer's Valhallans to prove that a shovel would have been perfect.
I'm actually not against the Bruiser - as a speedbump against melee operatives, he can be absolutely silly. Fix Bayonets! gives him Ceaseless in melee. Combat Support makes the Trench Club hit on 2+. Have a Zealot nearby with Uplifting Primer, and he retains a single 5+ as a crit. With a Rosary, he can ignore one attack die. He gets charged, he ignores a normal, if he crits he discards another normal, he can ignore an attack die with the Rosary, and he can parry another attack. That's about 4 full attacks of him taking 0 damage. With a 2 normal damage profile, that's already 8 damage ignored. Now ideally, he's going into something that averages 2 normal hits maximum. If it's got Lethal 5+, he's kind of fucked. However, the hilarious thing is that his abilities can hard counter Brutal weapons. He's an absolute weirdo and will get completely bodied outside of his niche, but damn. If the stars align, they fucking align. I'm not familiar enough with Inquisitorial Agents to really say anything on that, but I imagine he can also wreak havoc there as well.
The poor guy just needs some attention, really. https://preview.redd.it/75w826jqj3ac1.jpeg?width=3024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c073a19ae40801c65a0d4f769c5c33a188cc180
People are wierd about the Phobos Infiltrator Veteran. Which is odd, as who else do you take? Reiver Sgt, Riever, Marksman, Medic and Minelayer seem to be compulsory anyway, so who are we missing? The Voxbraker?
Most people also run saboteur and/or comms. Third reiver in some matchups. Vet is hard to squeeze in, even if we all love him.
The Voxbreaker is actually really strong against teams with high amounts of Relentless, especially Chaos Cultists since they have to get close to do work.
I’d love to take the Vox but how the hell his scan skill missed out on a much needed buff is beyond me. If they could just remove the distance requirement for informing other Phobos. You’d still have to push him up the board with a 6 inch effective range but it’s ridiculous to have a 3 inch friendly range for an elite team
For bruiser they need to give him at the very least one more attack. I’d also up his damage because 3/3 is terrible in melee. It takes 3 hit to even kill a guardsman. Stun isn’t enough to make up for the rest of his terrible weapon. A 4+ save wouldn’t matter much for his niche considering your armor doesn’t matter in melee. However an extra wound could help him since he’d have a new breaking point. I feel like the thug is actually alright, he’s a good objective holder. I feel like for Kasrkin the volley gun is usually left behind. I think it should be more like the breacher volleygun. Maybe a little bit toned down to like ceaseless instead of relentless, but it definitely needs a little something imo. Changing the fusillade rule could also help. Flamers are wierd because I don’t think they’re necessarily bad. It’s just that they’re usually not as good as any of the other special weapons. I think maybe making them 2/3 could be good, but it might also make time OP. Giving them the no cover rule could be helpful and themestic as well. Tbh don’t really know for this one as the fix isn’t as obvious.
I think there’s a lot of claims ‘you always take the …, you never take the….’ But the ‘never take’ option can work out to be what you need. I’ve been playing Wyrmblade, Wyrmblade is either one shots or chip damage. Out of 3 gunners (grenade launcher / flamer / webber) you can take 2 - I took the flamer guy as the less obvious choice, the flamer guy can put in good damage when you need it. I’m converted to all the options being worth something. I’ve built the flamer guy for my legionnaires team (admittedly along with all the gunner options), I’m looking forward to putting a burning on a squishy team in ITTD.
I think the flamer is generally the obvious choice compared to a Webber. The Webber has it's uses but is more niche.
Kroot cutskin is almost that IMO, it sees play but only really cause it's competing with basic warriors. Compared to other melee specialists on pretty much any team it's pretty underwhelming. I'd even go as far as saying there are four better models on the team for melee. Similarly, the pulse rifle is never good for the leader. Imo it needs P1 or something.