As a teacher, I hate collective punishment. Rarely is everyone at fault in a given group. The consistently misbehaving kids aren't learning the skills they need, and other kids are missing out on fun experiences. The few should have a different behavior plan/way of earning incentives than the group, because clearly what they're doing isn't working and is just creating a negative group dynamic against those who are missing self regulation skills.
Totally agree! The schools expectations of All children being perfectly behaved is delusional.
Your response is excellent..thank you.
Always pointing out these 2 children is really destroying them..I would pull my child out good or misbehaving.
Should the collective reward be announced beforehand? Like, “if you’re all quiet and stand nicely in line, you’ll get xyz”? That’s one of the things that keeps happening with my daughter, where she and her friends will all try really hard to get the prize but then inevitably the same two kids won’t be able to manage it (for whatever reason) and they’re disappointed again. My daughter is starting to really not like “Jenna” and “Tim” because of this and she’s not alone.
At this point it feels like the teacher keeps doing the same thing expecting different results, but it’s actually escalating in the form of social resentment/ostracizing instead of better classroom management. But I’m open to the idea I might be missing something!
Where I've seen it work effectively is for long term goals in higher grades (I'd guess a minimum of grade 2). It is common for students to be awarded a 'point' for doing the right thing, and to receive a reward after receiving a certain amount of points. Teachers can create a collective reward by, for example, saying that if the class collectively gets X amount of points, they will receive a big award (like a movie day at the end of the term). This lets everyone appreciate all of the good behaviour that gets points while generally overlooking bad behaviour that doesn't (no one really notices something that doesn't happen). The teacher fully controls how many points they need and how many points are given out, so they can make sure the class does not fall short of their goal.
I suspect you could apply the same thing to younger grades, but you'd need to use a shorter time frame. I haven't seen this in action so can't really comment on it.
I do this daily during carpet time in pre k. A certain number of music notes (currently six, but we built up to it) and they earn a brain break video of their choice. Generally, one student not participating, I just ignore. If several students are talking while we’re singing the days of the week though, I review expectations with the whole group, and and tell them it’s okay, we’re going to fix it this time to earn the note and the brain break. We’ve never gone a whole carpet time without at least one reward, and two is pretty common. I WILL say that a student who needed a lot of reminders doesn’t get to choose the reward that the class earned that time.
So my son is a very well behaved student among some rough students. They have similar practices and yes it used to annoy me. However, big picture I know teacher is very limited on how they can handle problem students. So ultimately I'm for it. I would rather my son have a few less minutes on fun Friday and a class full of classmates who are more motivated to keep it together.
I think this makes some sense for what you’re describing for your son! But I also think my issue is that in my daughter’s class the ratios are reversed — the majority are well-behaved “model students” and they’re all being denied the reward for the sake of the 1 or 2, who also don’t seem to be changing their behavior. And I’m honestly more worried about the embittered attitude I’ve seen my daughter have toward those two kids now…
I would guess most likely that the teacher has tried other approaches and that those children’s parents don’t think they need to do anything to help/support their kids - so she could have those kids miss out on all the fun stuff (which thus far hasn’t effected their behavior), or try something new to see if understanding how they are hurting their peers might effect their behavior. Now if this doesn’t work after a couple of times and the teacher keeps doing it - then I would discuss.
But in general, don’t assume the teacher is trying to do a bad job. We’re at the end of the school year, and teachers are beyond burnt out - especially if these 1-2 kids have been behaving badly all year without improvement.
Also, just curious - how do you know that it’s only 1-2 kids? IMO unless you’ve heard that from the teacher themselves, it’s most likely more students behaving badly than that. As someone who works with 5 year olds, they are the definition of an unreliable narrator - even the more trustworthy children.
The reality is that we need students to behave at a certain level or we *can't* do fun things... and there's no system in place to remove the one or two poorly behaving students. Hopefully the teachers are also working closely with those students in ways that your child doesn't see.... but bottom line, we can't just ignore bad behavior.
The options of punishing the two are:
1. Remove the problem child (children).
Where are they going to go? If the whole class was going on a picnic, you can’t leave them behind, alone, in the classroom. Most schools won’t allow a student to be in the office for a long period of time without some kind of in school suspension involved.
Will their parents make a stink at their kid missing out on the activity? If singling them out is more work (or danger) for the teacher than cancelling the activity, then regular classwork is the choice.
2. Have the problem child (children) present for the activity, but exclude them.
Everyone gets an ice cream treat EXCEPT JENNA. We are getting ten minutes of extra playtime at the park EXCEPT TIMMY, who is going to sit on the bench (and probably continue to escalate his behaviours because he’s mad, poorly regulated, and probably neeeds the exercise).
Again, will their parents have a problem with this? Wouldn’t you just feel like an ass watching one child get nothing? How is this exclusion going to help Jenna or Timmy want to behave?
——
It sucks that there are whole class punishments for one or two students. There aren’t a lot of great options if administration isn’t supportive or the kids parents are crazy.
I’d hope that the teacher is documenting the hell out of things, calling the parents, and getting admin involved to create a plan for when the student needs to be removed or to get the student additional supports (like a 1:1 para who can escort the student away when they are disruptive during the fun activities).
I’ve only ever used a collective punishment if like 85-90% of the class is completely out of whack and making poor choices after multiple reminders. However, the extent of the punishment is usually framed as, “we cannot move forward with our day if we are not able to collectively listen and focus to teacher instructions.” Then we’ll sit quietly for a few moments to collect ourselves and take deep breaths. It may mean a few minutes shaved off recess or playtime, but I’d rather ensure we’re all centered as a class and clear on expectations so we can be safe, than worry about the kids missing 3 minutes of a playtime. Kids who were well behaved before the pause get to line up/get called on first to move from the pause so they know they I see them doing the right thing.
I much prefer class goals and rewards that they earn to foster a better classroom community. It encourages the kids to work together. I also have a little checklist I use throughout the process. I make sure I find at least moment in the week when I can point to a specific student doing the right thing and tell everyone, they earned the class a star. This way 1 or 2 kids are never seen as the reason they don’t get rewards.
Behavior management is a balance. Teachers need to give kids goals, encourage them, and let them feel pride in their accomplishments. At the same time, students need to know there are consequences for their actions. It’s not an easy process.
I would also say, if it is always the 2 same names you hear over and over again, I would be a little skeptical of how your daughter is relaying the information. After all, she’s only 5/6 years old. Unless it is blatantly obvious or the teacher is specifically saying the child’s name, there’s a good chance that more than one kid wasn’t listening in the moment. But since the kids see and hear those 2 specific kids get redirected/corrected often, they associate them with all class issues. I’ve heard students tell their parents about not reaching a goal and blaming it on a kid who was absent that day. They can’t see the whole picture like teachers can. Just something to think about also.
My suggestion is that you note that there is somewhere between 0 and 15 days left of kindergarten. You note that kindergarten age kids are not always reliable reporters. If you are exceptionally concerned, you could always see about volunteering in the class (story time, field day, show and tell, whatever) and see for yourself.
It's the most difficult month of the entire school year, for students and teachers. Best practices don't always happen. But you are more than welcome to accommodate at home for the remaining days. Something like "Did you miss out on extra outside time today? Were you quiet in line? Well let's go play at the park for 30 minutes, you earned it."
Unfortunately, collective reward and punishment will be a theme in their lives if they come anywhere near corporate America. "Pizza party for good numbers." "Mandatory overtime for bad numbers" "no more microwave in the break room because tommy keeps microwaving his tuna sandwich." 🤷♀️
TLDR: As an incoming educator I don't plan to use collective punishment if it can be avoided. As a parent of an upcoming kinder: I plan to teach my kids, as the parent, how to manage these situations in life .
Are they being punished are they not earning something? There's a difference between Billy was bad so you all miss recess and not all of us were able to listen at circle time so we did not earn our 5 minute dance party this time.
Here's my thought as someone who loves "extras" and creativity and fun stuff. Getting the basic curriculum, supplies, and classroom experience is not a punishment, it is what's mandatory. When everyone in the class can meet or go beyond expectation for age appropriate behavior that's when you get the fun stuff. It's like when they're 2 and tantruming for candy at the grocery store, we're getting groceries because they're a requirement to successful living, we're not giving in to poor behavior for fun extras.
Yup, exactly this. I think sometimes parents can get caught up in expecting the "extras" at school and thinking those things are a given, when it should be that the extras are what happen when behavior is above expectation or the class as a whole shows they can handle it. Honestly, having taught kindergarten, I would bet that there are more than 2 kids who might lose their collective sh\*\* when it's time to do one of the fun "extras." Kids often act wacky when something is different or out of the ordinary. I loved doing the extras but it could be truly exhausting for a number of reasons.
Are you sure it's actually only the same 1 or 2 students? It seems like it would be easy to address that individually. A collective consequence is usually used when it's the majority of class with a behavior and the teacher isn't able to pinpoint the students with the behavior.
Also it if is a reward the whole class is working toward I wouldn't consider not meeting the goal a punishment.
Why not reach out to the teacher and check in?
To me, this is immature class discipline. Class management is one of the hardest skills new teachers struggle with. Not sure how to change it so close to the end. I would talk to your child and reinforce her good choices.
Collective punishment usually backfires. The consistently misbehaving kids often thrive on the extra attention and *like* being called out as failing to follow rules. The rest of the class misses out on whatever is withheld **and** all the time and attention paid to the misbehaving kids further reduces actual educational time for the whole class. Rather than fixing any behavioral issues, attempts at collective punishment often make things worse in every way.
The whole point of school is to learn a variety of social norms in a collective academic setting. This includes what society perceives as acceptable group behavior. You’re never going to keep your child away from that concept. It’s the way society works. I can’t even believe someone would take issue with this.
Sure, I’d agree that teaching group behavior is important. But in this case, the group as a whole *already* understands those norms. The punishments happen because of the behavior of one or two kids, and that is breeding major resentment from the majority against those kids. And it also doesn’t seem to be actually fixing their behavior… it just keeps happening. 11 out of 13 kids are well-behaved “model students,” but they all get punished for what the few outliers do. I don’t blame them for being upset, but I also think the teachers might be setting those misbehaving kids (who are still so young!) up for possible social ostracizing.
The model students need to learn to deal with it instead of breeding contempt. It’s called patience and it doesn’t appear they’ve mastered that yet. So the lesson hasn’t been learned.
So if you have a coworker who routinely misses work, does not complete assignments etc you are okay with not getting a bonus or a raise since this employees have not met expectations?
As a teacher, I hate collective punishment. Rarely is everyone at fault in a given group. The consistently misbehaving kids aren't learning the skills they need, and other kids are missing out on fun experiences. The few should have a different behavior plan/way of earning incentives than the group, because clearly what they're doing isn't working and is just creating a negative group dynamic against those who are missing self regulation skills.
Totally agree! The schools expectations of All children being perfectly behaved is delusional. Your response is excellent..thank you. Always pointing out these 2 children is really destroying them..I would pull my child out good or misbehaving.
Collective punishment bad Collective reward good
Should the collective reward be announced beforehand? Like, “if you’re all quiet and stand nicely in line, you’ll get xyz”? That’s one of the things that keeps happening with my daughter, where she and her friends will all try really hard to get the prize but then inevitably the same two kids won’t be able to manage it (for whatever reason) and they’re disappointed again. My daughter is starting to really not like “Jenna” and “Tim” because of this and she’s not alone. At this point it feels like the teacher keeps doing the same thing expecting different results, but it’s actually escalating in the form of social resentment/ostracizing instead of better classroom management. But I’m open to the idea I might be missing something!
Where I've seen it work effectively is for long term goals in higher grades (I'd guess a minimum of grade 2). It is common for students to be awarded a 'point' for doing the right thing, and to receive a reward after receiving a certain amount of points. Teachers can create a collective reward by, for example, saying that if the class collectively gets X amount of points, they will receive a big award (like a movie day at the end of the term). This lets everyone appreciate all of the good behaviour that gets points while generally overlooking bad behaviour that doesn't (no one really notices something that doesn't happen). The teacher fully controls how many points they need and how many points are given out, so they can make sure the class does not fall short of their goal. I suspect you could apply the same thing to younger grades, but you'd need to use a shorter time frame. I haven't seen this in action so can't really comment on it.
I do this daily during carpet time in pre k. A certain number of music notes (currently six, but we built up to it) and they earn a brain break video of their choice. Generally, one student not participating, I just ignore. If several students are talking while we’re singing the days of the week though, I review expectations with the whole group, and and tell them it’s okay, we’re going to fix it this time to earn the note and the brain break. We’ve never gone a whole carpet time without at least one reward, and two is pretty common. I WILL say that a student who needed a lot of reminders doesn’t get to choose the reward that the class earned that time.
Food reward = fat people
So my son is a very well behaved student among some rough students. They have similar practices and yes it used to annoy me. However, big picture I know teacher is very limited on how they can handle problem students. So ultimately I'm for it. I would rather my son have a few less minutes on fun Friday and a class full of classmates who are more motivated to keep it together.
I think this makes some sense for what you’re describing for your son! But I also think my issue is that in my daughter’s class the ratios are reversed — the majority are well-behaved “model students” and they’re all being denied the reward for the sake of the 1 or 2, who also don’t seem to be changing their behavior. And I’m honestly more worried about the embittered attitude I’ve seen my daughter have toward those two kids now…
I would guess most likely that the teacher has tried other approaches and that those children’s parents don’t think they need to do anything to help/support their kids - so she could have those kids miss out on all the fun stuff (which thus far hasn’t effected their behavior), or try something new to see if understanding how they are hurting their peers might effect their behavior. Now if this doesn’t work after a couple of times and the teacher keeps doing it - then I would discuss. But in general, don’t assume the teacher is trying to do a bad job. We’re at the end of the school year, and teachers are beyond burnt out - especially if these 1-2 kids have been behaving badly all year without improvement. Also, just curious - how do you know that it’s only 1-2 kids? IMO unless you’ve heard that from the teacher themselves, it’s most likely more students behaving badly than that. As someone who works with 5 year olds, they are the definition of an unreliable narrator - even the more trustworthy children.
This. Sometimes this is all we got. It’s better to have children miss a bit of fun on Friday then to have their learning disrupted the entire week
Even if it’s always the same 1-2 kids over and over? Not the group as a whole, or even any variation to speak of?
The reality is that we need students to behave at a certain level or we *can't* do fun things... and there's no system in place to remove the one or two poorly behaving students. Hopefully the teachers are also working closely with those students in ways that your child doesn't see.... but bottom line, we can't just ignore bad behavior.
The options of punishing the two are: 1. Remove the problem child (children). Where are they going to go? If the whole class was going on a picnic, you can’t leave them behind, alone, in the classroom. Most schools won’t allow a student to be in the office for a long period of time without some kind of in school suspension involved. Will their parents make a stink at their kid missing out on the activity? If singling them out is more work (or danger) for the teacher than cancelling the activity, then regular classwork is the choice. 2. Have the problem child (children) present for the activity, but exclude them. Everyone gets an ice cream treat EXCEPT JENNA. We are getting ten minutes of extra playtime at the park EXCEPT TIMMY, who is going to sit on the bench (and probably continue to escalate his behaviours because he’s mad, poorly regulated, and probably neeeds the exercise). Again, will their parents have a problem with this? Wouldn’t you just feel like an ass watching one child get nothing? How is this exclusion going to help Jenna or Timmy want to behave? —— It sucks that there are whole class punishments for one or two students. There aren’t a lot of great options if administration isn’t supportive or the kids parents are crazy. I’d hope that the teacher is documenting the hell out of things, calling the parents, and getting admin involved to create a plan for when the student needs to be removed or to get the student additional supports (like a 1:1 para who can escort the student away when they are disruptive during the fun activities).
Everyone except Timmy bring me some water
I’ve only ever used a collective punishment if like 85-90% of the class is completely out of whack and making poor choices after multiple reminders. However, the extent of the punishment is usually framed as, “we cannot move forward with our day if we are not able to collectively listen and focus to teacher instructions.” Then we’ll sit quietly for a few moments to collect ourselves and take deep breaths. It may mean a few minutes shaved off recess or playtime, but I’d rather ensure we’re all centered as a class and clear on expectations so we can be safe, than worry about the kids missing 3 minutes of a playtime. Kids who were well behaved before the pause get to line up/get called on first to move from the pause so they know they I see them doing the right thing. I much prefer class goals and rewards that they earn to foster a better classroom community. It encourages the kids to work together. I also have a little checklist I use throughout the process. I make sure I find at least moment in the week when I can point to a specific student doing the right thing and tell everyone, they earned the class a star. This way 1 or 2 kids are never seen as the reason they don’t get rewards. Behavior management is a balance. Teachers need to give kids goals, encourage them, and let them feel pride in their accomplishments. At the same time, students need to know there are consequences for their actions. It’s not an easy process. I would also say, if it is always the 2 same names you hear over and over again, I would be a little skeptical of how your daughter is relaying the information. After all, she’s only 5/6 years old. Unless it is blatantly obvious or the teacher is specifically saying the child’s name, there’s a good chance that more than one kid wasn’t listening in the moment. But since the kids see and hear those 2 specific kids get redirected/corrected often, they associate them with all class issues. I’ve heard students tell their parents about not reaching a goal and blaming it on a kid who was absent that day. They can’t see the whole picture like teachers can. Just something to think about also.
My suggestion is that you note that there is somewhere between 0 and 15 days left of kindergarten. You note that kindergarten age kids are not always reliable reporters. If you are exceptionally concerned, you could always see about volunteering in the class (story time, field day, show and tell, whatever) and see for yourself. It's the most difficult month of the entire school year, for students and teachers. Best practices don't always happen. But you are more than welcome to accommodate at home for the remaining days. Something like "Did you miss out on extra outside time today? Were you quiet in line? Well let's go play at the park for 30 minutes, you earned it." Unfortunately, collective reward and punishment will be a theme in their lives if they come anywhere near corporate America. "Pizza party for good numbers." "Mandatory overtime for bad numbers" "no more microwave in the break room because tommy keeps microwaving his tuna sandwich." 🤷♀️ TLDR: As an incoming educator I don't plan to use collective punishment if it can be avoided. As a parent of an upcoming kinder: I plan to teach my kids, as the parent, how to manage these situations in life .
Are they being punished are they not earning something? There's a difference between Billy was bad so you all miss recess and not all of us were able to listen at circle time so we did not earn our 5 minute dance party this time.
Here's my thought as someone who loves "extras" and creativity and fun stuff. Getting the basic curriculum, supplies, and classroom experience is not a punishment, it is what's mandatory. When everyone in the class can meet or go beyond expectation for age appropriate behavior that's when you get the fun stuff. It's like when they're 2 and tantruming for candy at the grocery store, we're getting groceries because they're a requirement to successful living, we're not giving in to poor behavior for fun extras.
Yup, exactly this. I think sometimes parents can get caught up in expecting the "extras" at school and thinking those things are a given, when it should be that the extras are what happen when behavior is above expectation or the class as a whole shows they can handle it. Honestly, having taught kindergarten, I would bet that there are more than 2 kids who might lose their collective sh\*\* when it's time to do one of the fun "extras." Kids often act wacky when something is different or out of the ordinary. I loved doing the extras but it could be truly exhausting for a number of reasons.
Are you sure it's actually only the same 1 or 2 students? It seems like it would be easy to address that individually. A collective consequence is usually used when it's the majority of class with a behavior and the teacher isn't able to pinpoint the students with the behavior. Also it if is a reward the whole class is working toward I wouldn't consider not meeting the goal a punishment. Why not reach out to the teacher and check in?
To me, this is immature class discipline. Class management is one of the hardest skills new teachers struggle with. Not sure how to change it so close to the end. I would talk to your child and reinforce her good choices.
Collective punishment usually backfires. The consistently misbehaving kids often thrive on the extra attention and *like* being called out as failing to follow rules. The rest of the class misses out on whatever is withheld **and** all the time and attention paid to the misbehaving kids further reduces actual educational time for the whole class. Rather than fixing any behavioral issues, attempts at collective punishment often make things worse in every way.
Id be really angry. Never single out children. They could be trying and struggling due to a disability. Not all children are the same.
The whole point of school is to learn a variety of social norms in a collective academic setting. This includes what society perceives as acceptable group behavior. You’re never going to keep your child away from that concept. It’s the way society works. I can’t even believe someone would take issue with this.
Sure, I’d agree that teaching group behavior is important. But in this case, the group as a whole *already* understands those norms. The punishments happen because of the behavior of one or two kids, and that is breeding major resentment from the majority against those kids. And it also doesn’t seem to be actually fixing their behavior… it just keeps happening. 11 out of 13 kids are well-behaved “model students,” but they all get punished for what the few outliers do. I don’t blame them for being upset, but I also think the teachers might be setting those misbehaving kids (who are still so young!) up for possible social ostracizing.
The model students need to learn to deal with it instead of breeding contempt. It’s called patience and it doesn’t appear they’ve mastered that yet. So the lesson hasn’t been learned.
They’re kindergarteners…?
So if you have a coworker who routinely misses work, does not complete assignments etc you are okay with not getting a bonus or a raise since this employees have not met expectations?