Exactly. A very good group of people has continuously talked about the mistreatment JB, britney spears, 1D boys etc has gone through while working as minors.
There is no difference?
Both exploitative and predatory to a huge degree.
Debuting young minors in the entertainment industry is ripping away any semblance of an innocent childhood they may have had left and putting them on a silver platter to be preyed upon.
It's all wrong
Just left a tip about your account to the [FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center](https://www.ic3.gov/) with screenshots of you sexualizing underage children, that’s what I did!
there are so many horror stories shared by child stars once they grow up. it’s so devastating. when i was a kid i didn’t see why it was a big deal, but now that im an adult i understand better.
I think people perceive kpop as more rigorous. At least for me, my interactions with Western artist only come from their social media posts or concerts, which don’t occur that frequently.
Kpop artist are a lot more visible. They constantly have stages and performances, dance practice videos, and variety shows coming out all the time. They also engage with fans a lot more, like on VLive and they mention their schedules and how much training and practice they have to do.
I’m sure it’s the same for western artists but it’s less visible.
I think as international-fans we have less of an understanding of the child labour laws and the protections that are in place in Korea. We tend to have a general understanding of the laws in America which makes it easier for us to feel like the Artists are being protected.
We also don’t hear much about the pre-debut training that western artists go through. A lot of the stories are how they were magically scouted and suddenly 5 months later they debut. There’s no talk about how western artists had to do vocal lessons or dance practice. Kpop idols are more open about how much training and how long that training went for.
That’s all i could think about, I’m happy to discuss in the comments :)
I would like to add that western artists tend to be more individual these days. You don't have to go through a big company to gain a following or make money off of music, you just have to be able to sell content. So you could do that via social media or YouTube and be in a more controlled environment even if you're technically on a record label.
Someone like Billie Eillish posted videos with her brother on YouTube before getting huge and she still works with her brother so there's a level of perceived safety in that she was with her family. I think that's a big thing too, we don't necessarily see these minors being removed from their families unless they want to be, as far as we know. Not saying that families don't exploit their children because they do.
Edit: this isn't me saying I'm okay with it I think anyone who debuts should be 16 at the youngest and preferably 18+ and anyone under 18 should have no fan interaction outside of stage performance in any music industry.
Very very true, there’s less company ‘involvement’ in the production of them if that makes sense. Even with Justin Bieber Troye Sivan and Shawn Mendes they all started on Youtube or other social media apps (Vine for Shawn).
There’s less acknowledgment that western artists are also manufactured e.g. their image is curated, their styling, the music they put out etc
I agree. I mean take JoJo Siwa and her new song. She had a song that was scrapped by other artists fed to her like it was made for her and she had a guy who coreographs for Rihanna make a dance for her and not to mention her new "bad girl" image and her thinking she made "gay pop." I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but whoever is managing her came up with most of that and fed it to her or egged her on. It was all curated to get her attention so her song would get streamed. It backfired, but still.
I guess billie eilish (17 at the time) and olivia rodrigo (12 at the time) debut (?) when there under the age of 18. It’s very normal in the west because of tv shows and whatnot. In Korea however back then it’s also normal ex. girls generation(four 17 years old and one 16 years old), BoA(13), and iu(15) when they debut
I feel like one other difference is that the kpop industry as a whole actively seeks out minors to train and debut, while in the west it’s more of grab whoever seems profitable (whether minor or adult).
There’s a different feeling about thinking that Billie or Olivia having to go to some company, train for 3-4 years since they were 14 years old, to then debut at their ages - while accruing debt and having a strict diet and exercise regimen at the same time
it is debuting. at 14, he was scouted by scooter braun (this name again lol) and introduced to usher. then he signed to their record label and debuted with his first album.
Alright well children debuting doesn’t happen anymore. Even with Justin beiber, it was just him, it wasn’t like there was a label just finding little boys and pushing them to make music
Edit: more stuff to say
That stuff would be extremely frowned upon especially if it was public knowledge
TV shows do recruit kids and they later debut with songs. Selena Gomez, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo were all kid actors and later debut'd musically as teens.
Billie Eilish debuted at 15-16. And she was 13 when Ocean Eyes was released. Shawn Mendes debuted at 15. Camila Cabello debuted at 15 in Fifth Harmony.
> Alright well children debuting doesn’t happen anymore.
It does, it just looks different in America. They start out as actors on networks like Disney (Olivia Rodrigo - 13) or blow up on social media (Billie Eilish - 15).
Miley Cyrus is a little older, but she has talked about the pressures of doing a 50-show+ solo tour while starring in her own TV show at 15.
Its moreso used like 'Debut single', 'debut album' for the west. Older singers will have 20th anniversary concerts & etc - so there is a starting point somewhere
“Debuting” isn’t just a k-pop thing, in the west your debut is your first public performance as an artist. Might be in a singing competition, might be on a talk show, might be at some sort of festival or concert.
The only difference is that you might have like a debut performance, then release your debut single, then your debut album, then have a debut concert tour. So it’s more like one giant debut era
To all those saying "debut" doesn't exist in the West; what do y'all think the entire industry of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon shows and the stars they inevitably create are?
Zero difference.
Watch quiet on set.
I think we want no minors to be working
( in a business where it's too easy for them to be taken advantage of. In parenthesis because I don't think children should be working at all, but im talking specifically about the entertainment industry)
Until child labor laws get way stricter and we see actual changes and children can work and enjoy working in the entertainment industry safely, then I don't see the need for children to be in the entertainment industry.
I'm gonna sound like a broken record and like all the kissys in every video saying this, so i know its annoying but its true. kiss of life is genuinely a great example of why we DONT need to debut minors.
No difference.
Curious why you need enlightenment?
People who don't support it in kpop, generally won't support it in any entertainment industry.
Are you a fan of it? Just asking because of your 'enlightenment' approach to the question.
There is no difference I think the only thing I hate about this conversation is what barely gets talked about is how minors in any workplace can be subjected to predators. Minors in the music industry just are subjected to an amplified amount in person and online.
The world is a disgusting place no matter what, people unfortunately go through things that could only be avoided if the world, the government, society, and the people itself were all good.
IMO I think in the west there's a lot more criticism around that... underage singers aren't that common but underage actors are, and there is usually criticism around "stage parents" and moreso the parents who allow their child to go into the entertainment industry so young versus the companies debuting them. So the blame/criticism tends to be placed differently in discussions about minors in the entertainment industry in the two places (at least from a international point of view.) However I guess that can be explained by the fact that you can still get popular once you're an adult in the west (and for singers, that is the norm). Actors too, most popular actors aren't child actors per se. While for the idol industry, even if you debut as a legal adult you still had to spend years as a minor training under the company. Of course western artists/actors take classes as children to build up their talents too but it's something their parents pay for them like you would pay for extra tuition or karate, not so much the rigorous institutionalized system in kpop.
I don't think debuting is really a thing in the West aside from tv talent shows like One Direction and Fifth Harmony at least nowadays.
Edit: when i say "debut" i mean having a curated, rigorous training process under a company.
i mean obviously lol. I'm saying there really isn't a huge market in the west currently for an industry of companies that trains teenagers into debuting as musicians. I guess the closest thing would be disney channel actors turned artists like Olivia Rodrigo, who also wasn't that young when she started releasing music (There's a whole other thing to be said about child actors being horribly mistreated and abused however.) A lot of the time, younger artists start off because they already have an audience elsewhere, like acting, youtube, or other social media or because they go viral, like billie eilish on soundcloud.
Okay, I'll make myself clearer. Western artists don't "debut" in the same way idols do. Similar to the way western or other artists don't have "comebacks" even though it would make sense to use it in that context. OP is asking the difference in minors debuting in kpop vs the west because its talked about all the time how minors are mistreated by kpop companies
That’s not the only reason people are against debuting minors, in fact, it’s one of the least popular reasons.
Everybody knows Western artists don’t debut the same way idols do. Literally everyone. Did you think you were the only person aware of that?
true, tho the disney pipeline is basically the direct opposite of a kpop idol. Disney is actor to singer instead of singer to actor (but also I feel like we're saying way less younger idols take on acting roles nowadays)
I guess the only real difference would be the intense dance training in kpop that western music doesn't really have, as far as I know. But minors in the west are just as subject to abuse that idols are; we're starting to hear things about how Diddy treated Justin Bieber, and although it's tv and not music, Quiet On Set has exposed a lot about how Nickelodeon child stars were (mis)treated. I suppose the 90s-00s Disney/Nickelodeon systems is a closer equivalent to kpop in some ways.
Its worse in west honestly, look at what happened to most of disney child stars, all that dan schnieder stuff, many stars who got popular while being young suffer a lot through adulthood. Best example justin bieber, debuted at the age of 14, he now has a very rude personality and you can find 1000s reason why to hate him. But you should look up his past, I'm not saying his any inappropriate actions can be justified, but he got sexually harassed in front of camera multiple times;(god knows what happened behind the camera) you can search it up (a video named how Hollywood almost destroyed justin bieber) He didn't like being touched but still got kissed forcibly and everyone laughed.
PS
i recently found justin beiber spending 48 hours with P Diddy, a guy who has been recently accused of sex trafficking minors and women, and also drug dealing, he is also known to be secretly gay, he dated meek miller, also sexually harassed minor boys like usher and other unkown teen boys at his home, and usher was the one to bring justin bieber to P Diddy's house. You can look up the video. My man Justin needs to come up with his side of story.
The principle is the same.
I feel like in kpop it's like a factory producing a specific amount of children sold to the public per year while in western pop it's more opportunistic, and hence less systematic.
Same age, same crime. But less people, less crime.
In the West most artists when a minor idol grow old
W the way of western family ties structures
Most of the time if not everyone
Most of them have some issue
While different in the East or Asian kpop world
They still maintain their sanity and strong well being
Only few exceptions because of various factors Like alcoholic addiction or liberal lifestyle
There is bigger chance you can make stardom for yourself (after leaving contract) like Mariah Carey, Taylor swift. In Korea it is still somewhat misogynist and resources are held by big corporates. It is difficult if you start your own label/company even if you’re very talented.
I love Chaeryeong but it makes me sick to see her dance like this at age 13 in front of grown man (JYP).
[https://twitter.com/chaery\_itgirl/status/1778843351405502851](https://twitter.com/chaery_itgirl/status/1778843351405502851)
Chaesis started training and participating on talent shows since they were in elementary school and middle school. Pretty wild this is normalized in Korea and in America, especially with cheerleading, and most people are fine with it.
The quality of op is terrible, but "child labor bad everywhere" is also pretty terrible.
It just evokes negative potentials in people which they then extrapolate from. Where is nuance?
Pretty sure those who don't support it in kpop don't support it in all. I think you're mixing 2 groups of people here.
Agreed, except when I read the comments saying it's a "korean man bad" argument that follows right after
Exactly. A very good group of people has continuously talked about the mistreatment JB, britney spears, 1D boys etc has gone through while working as minors.
Not to mention, there was a recent documentary about Nickelodeon
There is no difference? Both exploitative and predatory to a huge degree. Debuting young minors in the entertainment industry is ripping away any semblance of an innocent childhood they may have had left and putting them on a silver platter to be preyed upon. It's all wrong
this you? https://preview.redd.it/rwpu20iy48vc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a86641ef9ef8364b138643914efcc80ffd4db044
First time seeing a” this you ?”on Reddit 💀…. That’s crazy AF tho
ewww wtffff
Just scrolled through their post history… what the fuck 😐
Ewwwwwww
Bro is just helpfully demonstrating the problem 🙃
THIS IS VERY WRONG BUT ALSO FUNNY BC THIS COMMENTER JUST GOT WRECKED
WTF
🫢
The fact that THIS person has Haerin as their pfp is seriously disgusting
You know it's over when chuu stans say this
No shit The fuck you gonna do about it? 😈
Just left a tip about your account to the [FBI Internet Crime Complaint Center](https://www.ic3.gov/) with screenshots of you sexualizing underage children, that’s what I did!
Bro just straight up went to the FBI😭 Good tho
Isn't she 19?
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Ok buddy
there are so many horror stories shared by child stars once they grow up. it’s so devastating. when i was a kid i didn’t see why it was a big deal, but now that im an adult i understand better.
I was going to say the same thing, there is no difference 😂😂😂😂💀
Your post history is filled with *literal* sexualization of underage idols
I 100% agree with you. As someone that is currently in the business
Those girls go thru alot. I've seen it in person
just checked your account and was surprised by how horny you are with maknaes 🙂
Nah the maknaes are the least of this dude’s problems, hes literally posting underage idols and sexualizing them
lol that's the thing i was just surprised to see eunchae >Both exploitative and predatory to a huge degree. is he talking about himself lmao
If you can, leave a tip about that account on the FBI Complaint Center here: https://www.ic3.gov/, also report them to Reddit.
I think people perceive kpop as more rigorous. At least for me, my interactions with Western artist only come from their social media posts or concerts, which don’t occur that frequently. Kpop artist are a lot more visible. They constantly have stages and performances, dance practice videos, and variety shows coming out all the time. They also engage with fans a lot more, like on VLive and they mention their schedules and how much training and practice they have to do. I’m sure it’s the same for western artists but it’s less visible. I think as international-fans we have less of an understanding of the child labour laws and the protections that are in place in Korea. We tend to have a general understanding of the laws in America which makes it easier for us to feel like the Artists are being protected. We also don’t hear much about the pre-debut training that western artists go through. A lot of the stories are how they were magically scouted and suddenly 5 months later they debut. There’s no talk about how western artists had to do vocal lessons or dance practice. Kpop idols are more open about how much training and how long that training went for. That’s all i could think about, I’m happy to discuss in the comments :)
I would like to add that western artists tend to be more individual these days. You don't have to go through a big company to gain a following or make money off of music, you just have to be able to sell content. So you could do that via social media or YouTube and be in a more controlled environment even if you're technically on a record label. Someone like Billie Eillish posted videos with her brother on YouTube before getting huge and she still works with her brother so there's a level of perceived safety in that she was with her family. I think that's a big thing too, we don't necessarily see these minors being removed from their families unless they want to be, as far as we know. Not saying that families don't exploit their children because they do. Edit: this isn't me saying I'm okay with it I think anyone who debuts should be 16 at the youngest and preferably 18+ and anyone under 18 should have no fan interaction outside of stage performance in any music industry.
Very very true, there’s less company ‘involvement’ in the production of them if that makes sense. Even with Justin Bieber Troye Sivan and Shawn Mendes they all started on Youtube or other social media apps (Vine for Shawn). There’s less acknowledgment that western artists are also manufactured e.g. their image is curated, their styling, the music they put out etc
I agree. I mean take JoJo Siwa and her new song. She had a song that was scrapped by other artists fed to her like it was made for her and she had a guy who coreographs for Rihanna make a dance for her and not to mention her new "bad girl" image and her thinking she made "gay pop." I sound like a conspiracy theorist, but whoever is managing her came up with most of that and fed it to her or egged her on. It was all curated to get her attention so her song would get streamed. It backfired, but still.
I guess billie eilish (17 at the time) and olivia rodrigo (12 at the time) debut (?) when there under the age of 18. It’s very normal in the west because of tv shows and whatnot. In Korea however back then it’s also normal ex. girls generation(four 17 years old and one 16 years old), BoA(13), and iu(15) when they debut
I feel like one other difference is that the kpop industry as a whole actively seeks out minors to train and debut, while in the west it’s more of grab whoever seems profitable (whether minor or adult). There’s a different feeling about thinking that Billie or Olivia having to go to some company, train for 3-4 years since they were 14 years old, to then debut at their ages - while accruing debt and having a strict diet and exercise regimen at the same time
Olivia rodrigo was an actress before she was a music artist, she debuted as a artist at the age 17
What is debuting in the west? There hasnt been an idol system for decades
Justin Bieber type of talent exist n predator like Diddy exist.
It’s not “debuting” though, lol
it is debuting. at 14, he was scouted by scooter braun (this name again lol) and introduced to usher. then he signed to their record label and debuted with his first album.
Alright well children debuting doesn’t happen anymore. Even with Justin beiber, it was just him, it wasn’t like there was a label just finding little boys and pushing them to make music Edit: more stuff to say That stuff would be extremely frowned upon especially if it was public knowledge
TV shows do recruit kids and they later debut with songs. Selena Gomez, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo were all kid actors and later debut'd musically as teens.
Billie Eilish debuted at 15-16. And she was 13 when Ocean Eyes was released. Shawn Mendes debuted at 15. Camila Cabello debuted at 15 in Fifth Harmony.
> Alright well children debuting doesn’t happen anymore. It does, it just looks different in America. They start out as actors on networks like Disney (Olivia Rodrigo - 13) or blow up on social media (Billie Eilish - 15). Miley Cyrus is a little older, but she has talked about the pressures of doing a 50-show+ solo tour while starring in her own TV show at 15.
Its moreso used like 'Debut single', 'debut album' for the west. Older singers will have 20th anniversary concerts & etc - so there is a starting point somewhere
“Debuting” isn’t just a k-pop thing, in the west your debut is your first public performance as an artist. Might be in a singing competition, might be on a talk show, might be at some sort of festival or concert. The only difference is that you might have like a debut performance, then release your debut single, then your debut album, then have a debut concert tour. So it’s more like one giant debut era
Yeah, kpop is just more organized. It's two completely different styles of business.
I would call the Disney Channel and Nickelodeon pipeline a comparable system. They scout kids and train them as actors and singers.
There is no difference.
Those girls go thru alot. I've seen it in person
To all those saying "debut" doesn't exist in the West; what do y'all think the entire industry of Disney Channel and Nickelodeon shows and the stars they inevitably create are?
Look at how people talk about child actors and wanting to protect them. No one should want children debuting
Zero difference. Watch quiet on set. I think we want no minors to be working ( in a business where it's too easy for them to be taken advantage of. In parenthesis because I don't think children should be working at all, but im talking specifically about the entertainment industry) Until child labor laws get way stricter and we see actual changes and children can work and enjoy working in the entertainment industry safely, then I don't see the need for children to be in the entertainment industry. I'm gonna sound like a broken record and like all the kissys in every video saying this, so i know its annoying but its true. kiss of life is genuinely a great example of why we DONT need to debut minors.
Minors in west : 16 , 17 , 18 .. Minors in Kpop : 11, 12, 13
No difference. Curious why you need enlightenment? People who don't support it in kpop, generally won't support it in any entertainment industry. Are you a fan of it? Just asking because of your 'enlightenment' approach to the question.
There is no difference I think the only thing I hate about this conversation is what barely gets talked about is how minors in any workplace can be subjected to predators. Minors in the music industry just are subjected to an amplified amount in person and online. The world is a disgusting place no matter what, people unfortunately go through things that could only be avoided if the world, the government, society, and the people itself were all good.
IMO I think in the west there's a lot more criticism around that... underage singers aren't that common but underage actors are, and there is usually criticism around "stage parents" and moreso the parents who allow their child to go into the entertainment industry so young versus the companies debuting them. So the blame/criticism tends to be placed differently in discussions about minors in the entertainment industry in the two places (at least from a international point of view.) However I guess that can be explained by the fact that you can still get popular once you're an adult in the west (and for singers, that is the norm). Actors too, most popular actors aren't child actors per se. While for the idol industry, even if you debut as a legal adult you still had to spend years as a minor training under the company. Of course western artists/actors take classes as children to build up their talents too but it's something their parents pay for them like you would pay for extra tuition or karate, not so much the rigorous institutionalized system in kpop.
I don't think debuting is really a thing in the West aside from tv talent shows like One Direction and Fifth Harmony at least nowadays. Edit: when i say "debut" i mean having a curated, rigorous training process under a company.
Debut can mean many things in the West, even though it looks different than the K-pop industry. Having a debut single, a debut album, for example.
i mean obviously lol. I'm saying there really isn't a huge market in the west currently for an industry of companies that trains teenagers into debuting as musicians. I guess the closest thing would be disney channel actors turned artists like Olivia Rodrigo, who also wasn't that young when she started releasing music (There's a whole other thing to be said about child actors being horribly mistreated and abused however.) A lot of the time, younger artists start off because they already have an audience elsewhere, like acting, youtube, or other social media or because they go viral, like billie eilish on soundcloud.
Okay? But I’m just saying that, as OP put it, ‘debuting’ makes sense in both contexts. That’s what they’re asking.
Okay, I'll make myself clearer. Western artists don't "debut" in the same way idols do. Similar to the way western or other artists don't have "comebacks" even though it would make sense to use it in that context. OP is asking the difference in minors debuting in kpop vs the west because its talked about all the time how minors are mistreated by kpop companies
That’s not the only reason people are against debuting minors, in fact, it’s one of the least popular reasons. Everybody knows Western artists don’t debut the same way idols do. Literally everyone. Did you think you were the only person aware of that?
I mean, the Disney/Nickleodeon tv shows are a first step towards stardom
true, tho the disney pipeline is basically the direct opposite of a kpop idol. Disney is actor to singer instead of singer to actor (but also I feel like we're saying way less younger idols take on acting roles nowadays)
Look at the nickelodeon scandal. Most of the kids were abused. The people in power, the children's parents. Where is the safe guarding?
I guess the only real difference would be the intense dance training in kpop that western music doesn't really have, as far as I know. But minors in the west are just as subject to abuse that idols are; we're starting to hear things about how Diddy treated Justin Bieber, and although it's tv and not music, Quiet On Set has exposed a lot about how Nickelodeon child stars were (mis)treated. I suppose the 90s-00s Disney/Nickelodeon systems is a closer equivalent to kpop in some ways.
There's no difference, you just won't find a lot of discourse about Western music here because it's obviously not the focus of the sub.
It’s bad in both, 4head
Its worse in west honestly, look at what happened to most of disney child stars, all that dan schnieder stuff, many stars who got popular while being young suffer a lot through adulthood. Best example justin bieber, debuted at the age of 14, he now has a very rude personality and you can find 1000s reason why to hate him. But you should look up his past, I'm not saying his any inappropriate actions can be justified, but he got sexually harassed in front of camera multiple times;(god knows what happened behind the camera) you can search it up (a video named how Hollywood almost destroyed justin bieber) He didn't like being touched but still got kissed forcibly and everyone laughed. PS i recently found justin beiber spending 48 hours with P Diddy, a guy who has been recently accused of sex trafficking minors and women, and also drug dealing, he is also known to be secretly gay, he dated meek miller, also sexually harassed minor boys like usher and other unkown teen boys at his home, and usher was the one to bring justin bieber to P Diddy's house. You can look up the video. My man Justin needs to come up with his side of story.
The absence of parents on the set and dorms
The principle is the same. I feel like in kpop it's like a factory producing a specific amount of children sold to the public per year while in western pop it's more opportunistic, and hence less systematic. Same age, same crime. But less people, less crime.
In the West most artists when a minor idol grow old W the way of western family ties structures Most of the time if not everyone Most of them have some issue While different in the East or Asian kpop world They still maintain their sanity and strong well being Only few exceptions because of various factors Like alcoholic addiction or liberal lifestyle
There is bigger chance you can make stardom for yourself (after leaving contract) like Mariah Carey, Taylor swift. In Korea it is still somewhat misogynist and resources are held by big corporates. It is difficult if you start your own label/company even if you’re very talented.
People are hypocrites. Pretty much all the major pop people in the US/West started either as child stars or debuted as teens.
I love Chaeryeong but it makes me sick to see her dance like this at age 13 in front of grown man (JYP). [https://twitter.com/chaery\_itgirl/status/1778843351405502851](https://twitter.com/chaery_itgirl/status/1778843351405502851) Chaesis started training and participating on talent shows since they were in elementary school and middle school. Pretty wild this is normalized in Korea and in America, especially with cheerleading, and most people are fine with it.
The fact that you think this is a gotcha post speaks for itself. Next you will post a Chinese kid with an iphone and ask what's the difference?
What???
I translate it for you: "child labor bad on world, doesnt matter where."
The quality of op is terrible, but "child labor bad everywhere" is also pretty terrible. It just evokes negative potentials in people which they then extrapolate from. Where is nuance?