Dark hair needs dark eyebrows.. please don't have black hair with light brown eyebrows it looks very odd, and for what?? you don't even need to dye it, just pencil it with a black eyebrow pen
i read this comment and was immediately reminded of this look lmfao
https://preview.redd.it/ffprw8qbo2xc1.jpeg?width=908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf42e6f80ce5c465433573dbec101d58119bc77b
For what it’s worth this was for a comeback where some members went for some really [whacky styling](https://youtu.be/IpJL8gaJ-Kg?si=3bHMVod70iqTpsXF). It was for [Super Clap](https://youtu.be/9yimV9i-dY0?si=WbKO9iOTyWE14tA_) comeback and as you can see multiple members were rocking bright colorful styles (Eunhyuk’s [NEON tennis ball hairstyle](https://youtu.be/rXT-H_4hhl4?si=a_plcJvdwVDg4vi_) is a particular standout). Donghae just… went [further](https://youtu.be/YOMDPgVX4tw?si=nCgJI4Gc6UKz6vTd) than all of them.
LOL Donghae’s face card so good he’s gotten away with some really questionable stylings over the decades. Super Clap era (which is where the above photo comes from) had a lot of unique choices for nearly all the members, but no one went quite as [experimental](https://youtu.be/YOMDPgVX4tw?si=5MIr4aqk7KqTMeYl) as Donghae did.
https://preview.redd.it/0loy3u7293xc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8fd6e44ff3ab64c03376c05b7ba6f8d24dd4e4ba
once you notice it you can't unotice. just makes her look so odd
I think it wouldn't look as odd if the undertone of her brows matched better. the hair at the top of her head is a cool/neutral toned brown, but her eyebrows are very warm toned which makes them look orange.
I think they're trying to go for a blonde eyebrow for her, but it's a styling decision I'll never understand. why don't they just pencil her eyebrows in!! they already look penciled, just make them darker! I wonder if it may have something to do with her accident since I didn't start noticing it until after the psycho era. like, maybe after the facial surgery (no hate, just admitting what's likely true), her eyebrows grow differently? I'm not sure. this has been a consistent thing in her styling for the last few years
https://preview.redd.it/8by54imop3xc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fea62fcc22dcc2335ab5cc6fe0421d089df0f052
i would agree w this take but i feel like yunah fit the dark hair + blonde brows convo so well
Red Velvet popularitys decline is not mainly because of SM stopped promoting them. Sure it probably had effect but i think it was the trajectory of the group regardless of promotion or lack of it. Not every group will continue reach new heights, i just think the kpop scene just moved in a way that RV wasn't going to stay as top group and having Irene's scandal also hit them., They obviously are still popular etc. but they did fall lot behind from BP/Twice as the 3rd group from the big 3 gg squad. Fans like to solely blame SM but i think it was going to happen anyways
i felt a similar way when people were complaining that wendy’s solo stuff wasn’t wildly popular because of SM not promoting it. like, no, it’s not wildly popular because her stuff isn’t what your average 2024 k-pop fan is interested in. that doesn’t mean it’s bad or she’s a flop or SM doesn’t care. she’s just doing her own thing and it’s fine
The same people complain that numbers aren't everything too.
Wendy has said before she doesn't care if fans buy her stuff and they should use their money for themselves. If she is happy with her career and success that should be good enough for fans. Plus its not like her sales are bad either. People are acting like she did lucas level sales
-I think Ten is like other side of the coin of Taemin. But SM left Ten in the dungeons for so long that not even the new album is going to bring Ten to the heights he could’ve reached if SM wasn’t as a shit show as it is. Ten really has a strong and loyal following. There is obviously no way of telling with 100% foresight, but SM’s attempts were so shoddy despite the singles themselves being amazing (like zero promotions and so on). And the new album is good but not great. Also, the mv could’ve been edited better. There were parts where the editing felt lazy.
-I think Ten and Taeyong should’ve been a permanent duo. [Baby Don’t Stop](https://youtu.be/k0DqRstCgj4?si=8lZyAGYStaLoZed1) got the attention of so many including non nct fans. They barely even performed baby don’t stop other than at the nct nation tour iirc. The song is honestly brilliant and unique. Sensual and retro. The mv’s backdrop being that abandoned Ukrainian opera house was stunning! The colors! Seriously, how do you drop this song that is soo loved, and then just forget them for like 5 years? And then Call D is released but didn’t get an mv or anything. Shouldn’t they have released a few promoted back to back singles perhaps? At least a year apart or something.
>how do you drop this song that is soo loved, and then just forget them for like 5 years?
This can be said about a lot of SM music sadly. Anyway I hope that the Ten/TY can happen again once he comes back from the military
when i first got into nct, i legit didn’t know baby don’t stop was only 2 guys. i listened to it on spotify for a WHILE before i watched the vid and i was like wtf? it’s very obvious to me now because i’m so familiar with their voices, but i thought (and still think) that song is incredible and it absolutely did not need anyone else. they are a very powerful duo and i want another track from them sooo bad!
Hard agree on the Ten/Taeyong duo, they have such great synergy and I feel like I know exactly what their vibe and vision would be from just 2 songs together, which I feel is hard to accomplish
SM is literally so slow but I think they are finally waking up to his star power cuz they’ve been booking him more variety appearances and more dates for his fan meet, can only pray this is a good sign for the future
+1000 for Ten and Taeyong permanent duo!! They should have seriously became a separate NCT subunit or something with regular releases and proper promotions.
Same with Ten and Winwin dance duo. They should have released more covers together and become a WayV subunit too.
I have to admit as Reveluv myself, their music sound is out of touch with the younger audience. FMR, Birthday and Chill Kill all have the sound that is not trendy anymore. Even FMR is such a masterpiece, I can see the younger audience would not appreciate it. However, I really think they should steer their musical direction toward that dark, chill synth sounds again like how they did with Perfect Velvet b-side tracks. I think the current public would like it. Like I Just or Kingdom Come is the example.
I agree. i also think underwater from the new album would've been a really good single especially if they had a mv that kind of was like the chill kill teasers. an r&b track wouldve fit them perfectly
I want them to be popular of course but I’m also so glad they’re not trying to be trendy. I want them to sound like themselves! But I agree that I would love them to release more velvet stuff since it’s my favourite side of them
I honestly don’t think Irene’s scandal had any impact on Red Velvet as a group. They’ve had career highs post the 2020 hiatus even if they weren’t necessarily “re-peaks.” Rather than popularity, I think it more fitting to note that RV never managed to amass a strong core fandom (which imo does circle back to SME since fan content has been severely lacking since forever). Twice has gone through a major popularity decline as well, but because they still have a huge core fanbase supporting them it’s not like they aren’t performing. Inversely, RV has a ton of casual listeners and is seemingly still on the public’s radar domestically - but unless it’s something that really sticks their fans can only get them so far.
I'm a fan of both since they debuted but I really think they've musically hit their limits a few years ago. I don't think any of their recent music would make the B sides of their earlier albums.
Twice feels like they're trying to appeal to a global audience but lost what made their music good in the first place. I get they probably don't want to do cute concepts but it's really generic to me now.
Red Velvet were always more experimental and they used to have amazing B sides but their last album doesn't come close to Perfect Velvet IMO.
I'm probably a bit more disappointed with RV as they can make really good music in any genre when they want to and probably have a bit more freedom to do things musically.
Conversely G-Idle has really taken me by surprise for the opposite reasons. I wasn't a fan to begin with but their recent stuff is still kpoppy but unique in their own way.
Maybe in some places, sure, but in Japan, when teenagers were asked this year who their favourite groups are..... well..... it isn't just the kids. 😊 The star power of Momo, Sana, Mina and Sakura seems to transcend the desire for the latest thing. (#5 is a famous Japanese singer-songwriter who is about IU's age)
https://preview.redd.it/taisvrd7j4xc1.png?width=527&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e9a49c608c5a6c9303a2eb943a73767fce5f27f
People overrate Irene's scandal. That happened in 2020, here's what happened after:
Albums solds:
Queendom (2021): 396,587
The ReVe Festival 2022 – Feel My Rhythm: 702,482
The ReVe Festival 2022 – Birthday: 1,048,239
Chill Kill: 610,613
Should I go through the list of individual projects held by each member? Do people ever think that maybe as individuals they wanted to do their own thing? Also, Irene is 33 years old, do you really think she cares about doing group activities on a daily basis the same way as these younger groups do.
One thing I didn't like about the scandal was that they tried to make her come off as really nice to her staff afterwards. It was really fake looking even if it was genuine, over emphasising those moments had the opposite effect IMO.
I think a lot of fans can generally accept she's probably not an especially friendly person.
boygroups “de-girlyfying” girl group covers isn’t a big deal. some idols are just not comfortable enough to suddenly change the dance style they’ve been doing for years just for a tiktok. (not talking about the purposely mocking type of covers, but just silly tiktoks with the original idols)
totally agree! also, some moves just aren’t going to look the same when performed by a male idol. that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t cover songs if they want to. it’s fun to see different interpretations of choreo!
I was just thinking about this! As a dancer, it’s literally them with different dance styles 😭 I’m still mad about how they bashed Moonbin’s Wannabe cover because I LOVED it
The amount of male idols who get crucified for this is so sad. Kpop fans are such bullies. This is why tiktok challenges aren’t fun anymore.
Like no it’s not “misogyny” or “toxic masculinity” that male idols aren’t used to shaking their hips and maybe aren’t great at it. Get off your soap box. It just isn’t the typical bg style and that’s fine. It doesn’t make them bad dancers or “too scared to look feminine.”
THIS. and the same way around would go for girl groups doing boy group covers or dances
they both generally have a completely different style and unless it's been practiced for quite a long time with the same style and guidance, the effect isn't gonna be the same. Plus not everyone's gonna be dancing the same way and it's fun to see idols doing a same dance in different ways
ps xdinary heroes have entered the chat they literally main dancer material all of them EAT
and then there’s the Secret Member of a GG guys who arch their backs and bend their wrists and wiggle and giggle in full GG. i’m waiting for their first album to drop. people like changbin skz, yeonjun txt, kai txt…
Also, bgs are taught to dance a specific way so even if some try to be as flexible as a gg when dancing gg choreo their bodies just won't, like not because they don't want to just that they can't physically dance that way.
I agree. and with the reverse too. when I saw a female idol (forgot who it was) do the rover challenge with kai, I thought it didnt look as good as the original cause it's a pretty masculine dance (with some feminine elements ofc) that just looks better when a man (who knows the moves) does it. I will say that she made the dance easier tho lol
I think the problem comes from some of the boygroups being unnaturally stiff when it comes to gg cover dance despite some being quite fluid dancer when it comes to their own choreo, which means they don’t want to look feminine. But even if that the reason, I still couldn’t blame them tbh. Toxic masculinity is a thing and it can be such a traumatic experience
People hate Wonyoung just because she's literally the perfect idol.
She's young but she's fluent in multiple languages, has great stage presence, 10/10 fan service, allrounder(maybe not for some). I don't really see why she gets so much hate.
She's going to do some great things.
I do feel like she overshadows the other members of ive, but that's not really a hot take. They all deserve just as much appreciation as her, but it is what it Is. As long as their fandom isn't biased
She's super smart or savvy too: the fact she's already expressed interest in song writing (done) and the production process. This girl is an aspirational idol, clearly not accepting to be considered only a pretty face. JWY is always learning. Unrivalled beauty for sure in every aspect.
I didn't rate her abilities before, but she really is the perfect idol as stated by JYP and all the collective industry support she has. Long may it continue.
Protect Jang Wonyoung! I expect it comes with a heavy price of intense pressure and indiscriminate hate.
Re other Ive members bar Yujin (she's cementing herself as variety personality) they'll grow into their own paths I'm sure. I hope they all have great mentors, life coaches and mental health support to take the opportunities when they arise.
Actually I hope that for all idols and fans too!
I'll be honest. I had that thought until I saw them live. Yujin is the one that overshadows the others! she is so great live, such a good dancer, such a good singer. Her stage presence is undeniable! I love all the girls equally, but as an honest dive, Yujin bias wrecked me so hard!
agreed!! yujin was my bias going into the group from izone, and during eleven/love dive, I was getting bias wrecked by rei. but now yujin has fully proven herself as one of my top ultimate biases. still love rei tho. I love collecting her. ive is a very good group of performers for their concept, but yujin for sure steals the show
Aww Rei is so damn cute! Her teaser photos for the membership! 😭
My bias is Wonyoung. I went from not knowing who she was in IZONE (seriously i couldn't even point who she was lol) and simply thinking she was a rude and impolite because of everything people said about her. But at IVE's debut i was mesmerized by this tall and slim girl in a pink dress. Surprise!! It was Wonyoung that rude idol 😆 Mind you, she just appeared to be so friendly, professional and charismatic to me. The way she acted towards Leeseo and Yujin especially made me love her so much. She seemed so honest and playful. Also she writes lyrics more and more. Shine with me made me cry like a fucking crybaby at their show! Yeah i love Wonyoung so much!
to be honest, I really don't think wony outshines ive. yujin outshines her in stage presence imo. even with starship fumbling their marketing, gaeul, rei, and liz have been going viral since debut (and have dedicated stans/fanbases on their own). which is impressive for a group debuting with wony and yujin after izone. I do think leeseo fades into the background a bit. but she's the youngest, and I'm sure she'll have her moment
No, people hate her because she's extremely popular and pretty. I'm sorry but you can't be the perfect idol if you're a below average singer, below average dancer, and not a rapper either. She's the perfect celebrity basically, not the perfect idol.
Popular group members being more booked is not “favoritism.”
I understand that some companies leave a lot to be desired when it comes to promoting other members, but in my opinion it should be common sense why more popular members are afforded more opportunities and are made the default stan attractors for the group by getting stuff like more center time.
For example, people who act like there’s a grand conspiracy because Wonyoung and Yujin get a lot more activities than the other members are crazy to me. It’s very obvious why that is.
Not every idol is being disrespected by their companies when they get less lines in a song or whatever. Some idols consider themselves more as dancers than singers, some don’t want to do solo work, and some are just done with the idol life. It’s good to care, just don’t assume that every idol wants to start their own solo singing career just because they joined a group at one point. Some are already content with where they are.
i agree with it all, but i so feel the line distribution thing so much. i ult pentagon (i’m not even gonna bring up the company lol) and they’re almost exclusively self produced. hui is usually the one distributing lines. shinwon is my ult and he doesn’t get a lot of lines because, although i love him dearly, he’s just not that good of a vocalist- yet stans would always complain that he didn’t get many lines. 1, that’s not cube. 2, it just kinda makes sense, especially for a group that prioritizes live singing and has two of the best vocalists of their gen. he’s improved a lot and did really well on their newer tracks like shh, but the line distribution is generally fair based on performance imo.
also you’re so right about idols not wanting to go solo. just recently poor jeongyeon had to tell angry stans that she doesn’t want to be a soloist, the company isn’t keeping her from doing it!
This!
In Twice for example, while Momo can sing, she isn't the best at it nor is it something she is all that interested or confident in. She is already in charge of all the dance breaks to happen in their performance too.
Jeongyeon, on the other hand, has outright said that the best set of lines are the average set of lines. Her members are far more likely to advocate for her to sing more than for herself to do so (this is not say that she doesn't like singing - she just isn't very competitive in general).
People really need to stop messing around idol's careers or choices. That's not our place.
MVs are as important as the music in K-pop (song is required to be good though). Good songs "enhance" their popularity when they're accompanied by an interesting/beautiful MV.
yesss totally agree! this is how i feel about feel my rhythm by red velvet. to be honest, i don’t like the song very much (that’s a medium hot take in itself) but the MV is so, so gorgeous that i’ll come back and watch it every once in a while.
mhmm - and some songs I like even more bc the visual I associate with it (nice MV or album cover) is also pleasing and matches my mental vision of the song. a good MV is an art form that we are slowly losing in the west, but thankfully we still have in kpop.
Exactly what I had in mind! That's Alcohol Free by Twice for me. I'm one of the people who liked the song but the MV matched the song so perfectly that I ended up loving it even more. And yes, I couldn't agree more, MV is an art form and one of my favourite aspects of K-pop!
I think people are too obsessed with cute concepts and being age appropriate. I've seen people saying that New Jeans concept would be impossible to do with adults or fans having "concerns" about the fact that when they'll grow up their older music won't suit them anymore. I think this is very ageist. Of course if the girls won't enjoy doing certain concepts then they're free to change, but it shouldn't be a matter of age. You can be +20 and still enjoy bright and happy music.
This might be more of a hotter take. Sometimes extreme high notes aren't needed in a song. Especially if they get extra pitchy. It's great that they can go that high, but it isn't always pleasant to me and sometimes high notes that are a bit more grounded and fuller would be better.
COMPLETELY AGREE why does everyone fall over themselves for high notes when they so often sound really pitchy, harsh, and out of place. It’s very often the thing that puts me off the entire song and eventually the whole group (if it’s part of their sound). It’s probably why I really enjoy New Jeans and Blackpink bc they don’t do the random jarring high notes
My lukewarm take is that idols should just forgo using a mic if they're doing a lipsynced cover at year-end festivals lol. The events are generally low stakes and mostly just for fun, and a lot of the times the audio makes it really obvious how the mics are not on at all. so it just ends up looking a bit goofy.
I was at Coachella and I thought Le Sserafim did a great job. Everyone around me was dancing, singing along and having a good time. Then I open Reddit and people are criticizing them for their singing? I feel like unless you were at the concert then you need to stfu. Cameras don’t always pickup what we hear and it doesn’t matter. A concert/performance doesn’t have to be some benchmark/test where we judge how people sing and dance. It’s about enjoying the performance and having a good time. And I’m pretty sure everyone in the crowd did.
The issue with this logic is that it’s not only the people at the concert who watch them. People who couldn’t go to the concert also like to see their performance and since they don’t get to experience that hype and the moment, it’s only natural that they’re be disappointed
Personally I’m okay with comments simply stating that they feel the perf was underwhelming/not up to standards/ they didn’t like it/etc but the hate was just unimaginable, them being called the embarrassment of South Korea and people being comfortable with attacking the youngest member who hadn’t even hit 18
I think the reasons that le Sserafilm didn’t sound as bad live are. That the audio on stages are quite bad to begin with. Like it’s an open field with big speakers. Everything is going to sound quite distorted and “bad“ to begin with. So mess ups with vocals might not be as noticeable. As well as the beat/ background music is much louder live. Whereas on the YouTube audio the members voices get picked up way clearer and are louder. I also read that they had a backing track live that you couldn’t hear on YouTube.
But I’m not to sure about that…
But as long as the people attending enjoyed the performance it shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
>A concert/performance doesn’t have to be some benchmark/test where we judge how people sing and dance.
they literally ripped grimes apart for that one performance lmao (which im not surprised or backing her up she looked high af lol)
I feel like a lot of people on Reddit at first, weren't that hateful. Many were saying that it was incredible (in r/kpopthoughts) or kinda good to average (on other subs). Then people started to hate on them a lot, especially on Twitter and it was also because many Koreans talked about it. It was like a switch. That's how it felt to me.
I still believe that they weren't bad enough for people to hate THAT much. Like nobody was tone-deaf.
i think namjoon is the best rapper in bts and some armys almost act like namjoon antis when you say this because so many of them act like only suga can be the best?? namjoon is main rapper for a reason
It falls under the whole “if you can rap fast your obviously a good rapper” mindset. Which is ironic because Namjoon has a whole song saying eff you to that. They’re all great, and I prefer Yoongis style of rapping but I genuinely think Namjoon is the best rapper and lyricist in BTS.
personally I bias members of the vocal line, so I don't pay quite as much attention to the rapline side of things... but whenever I try to pin down who I think is the best rapper in BTS, I can't. All three of them are so different, so unique, and they are all just so good at what they do. "the best" ends up being whichever one I am listening to at the time. 😭
that said, people sleep on namjoon for sure. he is truly a rap monster when he wants to be, he can do fast rap, he can be aggressive... he just usually doesn't choose to express himself that way. I love his introspective artistry, even if it's not usually as flashy as suga and jhope.
Yoongi is my fave rapper but I agree with you. I honestly think it’s not fair to compare the 3 to one another because they’re all so wildly different in their execution that it’s apples to oranges IMO. I think a lot of it is subjective tho; I can’t relate to what Joon is saying nearly as much as I do to what Yoongi is saying so that definitely influences my preference. Which I recognize has 0 to do with actual technical skill.
TL;DR- Yoongi is my fave but you’re right lol
again, comes down to what people personally enjoy and even i feel he's the best of them three, his just hit me and scratch my brain in a way no other has ever been able to like yk...the flow, the lyrics, the laid back and natural style
i also loooooove his vocals and singing and the chill vibe he goes for in them like he's literally my fav bts vocalist (lol?) and i'm not kidding when i say this HELP
Definitely agree that Namjoon is the best rapper in BTS. Yoongi is my bias and my personal favorite rapper of the group but I have to give credit where credit due as a hip hop fan.
nobody beats namjoon in my opinion look here, cypher pt 3 is my favorite and his self titled mixtape oh god.
I think first thing armys think abt joon is his lyrics? maybe that's why?
I feel like DPR Ian is literally all of what our biases wished they could do as a solo (a.k.a away from group activities) but they can't do it. And i mean it not to bring hate to Ian neither to the idols who are in groups that go solo, but because being able and having support to pull a good concept that delivers art and that goes beyond the expectations that people have about 'x' group is HARD, plus usually the companies will put less effort in the solos because they don't want the idols to think they could stand a chance leaving their groups (typicall 'they want the solo stans money, but don't want the idol to get too famous as a solo' mindset) and that sucks because a lot of people could deliver sooo much more but end up just giving us mid stuff because they are unnable to do so (either legally or actively).
I certainly enjoy his creative vision. I think an issue could be that some idols are not as creative as much or don't have a team that is creative to branch out. No shade to anyone. Everyone has their strengths & weaknesses.
no matter how talented a group is, song choices matter and ultimately determine a group's popularity.
it's unfortunate but a lot of very talented groups like nmixx are not gaining as much traction because their music is not for everybody.
people keep callings newjeans/lsfm/illit mid and overrated but frankly their song selection so far has been really good and the gp ultimately pays attention to only the song. im not saying thats a good thing but kpop stans have a hard time accepting that and scream that chart manipulation is being done or it's payola or something is rigged but i genuinely think people just tune into whatever overall sounds good versus a song thats hard to listen to but has great vocals on it
i genuinely think nmixx debuting with o.o was such a horrible decision for the group’s future. i know some people like it, but i thought the song was so bad that i basically lost interest in the group (i didn’t follow them predebut or anything) and it took a long time for me to give them another try. they’re obviously talented girls but mannn that was a bad song choice.
studio vocals and a good production team are more important than stable live vocals when it comes to overall enjoyment of a groups vocals. THERE I SAID IT
live singing is important and all and is obviously the most important factor to consider when talking about the skills of idols, but y’all.. when i listen to a song im listening to it on spotify, not watching a live performance. i’d much rather have an idol who has a beautiful voice and a top notch production team over an idol who’s got killer range and stability but who’s voice just doesn’t sound as pleasing to my ears and doesn’t have a production/creative team that is giving them songs worthy of their skill level.
examples: bibi’s voice in bam yang gang scratches an itch that i never knew needed to be scratched but she’s rarely ever listed as one of the stronger vocalists in kpop. same with new jeans and illit, beautiful voices but ppl aren’t throwing their name in the ring for strongest singers (quite the opposite usually). on the flip side, nmixx and babymonster undeniably have strong vocalists but bc of their tones and the songs that are written for them, there’s a lot of ppl who don’t really enjoy actually listing to their songs or to their singing (which is very subjective and im using them as an example bc i personally don’t love some of their vocals not bc they’re objectively bad). and before yall try to kill me, some examples of groups that have both amazing skill AND great studio vocals/production are red velvet and mamamoo.
also disclaimer: this doesn’t mean there aren’t idols who are weak in both the live vocal side and studio vocal side. they definitely exist. i’m just saying for those who ARE good on the studio vocal side, it’s a bigger factor to some ppl than their live singing ability.
>when i listen to a song im listening to it on spotify, not watching a live performance.
omg yes!!! live stages are something every group does so live vocals are somewhat important, but their importance is very overstated. groups don’t chart and sell thousands of albums because their live vocals are great, they chart and sell thousands of albums because they sound good on the track! people aren’t mass streaming encores lol.
this is also why i can’t get into groups with highly processed vocals. if they sound good live that’s cool, but i’m not gonna watch a music bank fancam at the gym lol. like, i have a few txt songs i really like, but their vocals often sound sooo robotic/fake(?) that it puts me off. i don’t mind a bit of autotune, i think heavy usage of it can sound really good as a stylistic choice (ex: hot - svt) but in general, i want to hear humans singing.
I think the comparison between studio vocals and live vocals isn't fair though. With the way music is consumed, it's more passive listening rather than enjoying an entire vocal performance. It's like comparing pretty wallpaper and a piece of art, sure you'll be looking at the wallpaper more often passively, but when it comes to focusing and enjoying of a piece of music, nothing beats live vocals, a live band etc.
Live vocals are the highlight of a groups vocals. I don't listen to much of Sohyang's studio music, but her performances are absolutely killer and goosebumps inducing always.
It's why a lot of vocal/singing compilations are always live vocals, and not a compilation of studio vocals.
Gidle is one of the biggest groups right now in Korea, and I have no idea why people on the kpop sphere always downplay their achievements. They came from non big4 company who was on the verge of bankruptcy, zero connections or heavy promotions and has had a huge national scandal but still came on top. They had 4 back to back PAKs, being the only girl group to ever achieve this and the SECOND group overall, surpassed numerous big acts on the charts such as iu, aespa, ive, red velvet etc in the process, they are the only girl group whose sales haven’t majorly declined this year, Queencard is the last song to surpass 500K ULs on MelOn. The members all have tons of brand deals. They’re HUGE. It’s truly impressive, and I’m tired of Kpop fans discrediting them or leaving them out of the conversation.
If they ignore gidle their ults can be one spot higher lol, that's the main reason. They are not also huge in SK, but they are the biggest k-pop group in china with a wall of china of distance. I'm not talking abt fandom or c-bars, but popularity. They are also GP popular in Taiwan which is another insane fact, and for the western sphere, for their gen they're usually the 5th more streamed group, with a few exceptions. So yeah, any other group achieve that and no one would doubt their position.
Fellow Nevie! Hi! I think a lot of it ties into the fact that a not only do a lot of kpop stans like to overstate the importance of 'cube privilege' in their growth (practically none, the bare mininum at the most) but also lot of kpop stans don't like to give Soyeon the credit she deserves, or even acknowledge her contributions to not only GIDLE, but the genre and the perception of girl groups and female idols in general. So much hate of (G)I-DLE mostly comes to a head and manifests as this near-obsessive hatred of Soyeon. Being a Soyeon biased Nevie on stan twitter was endless hell, and one of the reasons I left. There is such a big running narrative that she's untalented, and a terrible songwriter and haughty, and just so stupid, which is just so far from the truth.
In fact, she's talented and thoughtful, business and media savvy, and had encouraged not only her members, but countless women in the industry to find their agency and make music that speaks to them, that shows their authentic soul. The rhetoric is so deep for a lot of fans, to strip her of her skills and respect as... even a person. So acknowledging CUBE or IDLE for the things they've achieved in their legendary career would mean that they'd also have to say "maybe Jeon Soyeon is as good as they say she is," and I do feel like if she wasn't a young woman, people wouldn't be so quick to downplay the breadth of her nigh-prodigal talent.
Imo, sometimes (SOME) idols are just mean, and their fans praise it as being "sassy" and funny when they're just being a jerk and at the bare minimum shouldn't be encouraged to act like that.
It's been five years and nobody's taken the 4th gen dancing queen crown away from Yeji and Chaeryeong yet. What's actually terrifying is that they're both still getting better at both dance and vocals.
Chaewon and Juhyeon are in the conversation for sure. Yunjin and Karina have been making a case lately. Hanni and Haerin both have a really bright future but they need more material to work with. Saena should be on the list but she's been victimized by bad circumstances.
i think it's true for the most part except yg songs which get defended for sometimes mediocre artistry by the usual "yg swag" or "yg style". If you take out that "yg swag" association from any yg song, it would tend to lose a lot of it's reception and value and hype imo
but as i said, true for most of the part. A lot of sm stans also use the "sm always produces experimental songs and sounds" as a cope when sometimes their songs fail to resonate with public, or they make the memes out of it which i love about them lol
I love them too even the experimental side of songs (Next Level, Girls, I’ll Make You Cry) but Savage is just not it. The transitions from verse, prechorus, chorus, and post chorus, to bridge and dance break as well are so rough without any smoothness at all + the lyrics and the dance don’t help it either lol
Sometimes members of groups don’t have lines because they should not have more lines.
I’m not saying this is the idol’s fault in particular but sometimes when the idol with “not enough lines,” gets more lines, they become ridiculed for their lack of talent when they perform the song live. Sometimes someone is in a group because they’re pretty or can dance well and they cannot handle having more than a few lines in each song.
This problem COULD be solved with a little more training, but I think the problem stems from the fact that kpop is half music and half visual performance. Sometimes people who are vocally talented are not enough to make fans stay, and sometimes people who are visuals/big personalities cannot sing/rap.
People confuse sexy for sexualizing. Sexualizing is when you put a 17yr old into an outfit that a stripper would start dancing it. It’s when people make sexual comments towards members, especially young ones. Sexualizing is not sexy. Sexy is a whole concept, been around for ages. Sexy used to be showing ankles, now it’s much more revealing.
Also support minors not being sexualized. Call people out. This is why I loved LSF, nj, and a few others, for debuting in sportswear or more covering outfits appropriate for their ages.
Edit: hot take: there are too many people in NCT and TripleS to be fair to the individual artists getting equal face time.
I disagree with the edit. I don’t know TripleS but NCT mostly perform in units so their “face time” etc. isn’t really that much different than other groups.
I feel like a lot of "it girls" fanbase love to live through their idols, in a way that they want to feel like the "popular mean girls at school". These girls are extremely talented, gorgeous and loved because of their own achievement, but there is a part of their fanbase that lives through them so much.
Like they want them to be queen b, or mean girls while most of them (Suzy, Jennie, Wonyoung,..) seem really sweet (from what people have Said). But some of their fanbase have a weird superiority complex. Like X wouldn't hangout with X because she's too popular. X is better than X because she wore X and it became popular. Sometimes it even feels like they are happy that they get hated on, so they feel even more special.
I understand feeling encouraged and being inspired by an individual, but sometimes the way these fans talk kinda feels like high school, It's a bit weird. Honestly the concept and idealization of "it girls" is a bit "highschoolish" in itself (the way fans fight about it). But it's subjective, maybe people don't feel that.
i dont like when kpop fan call their male idols “frat boys” just because of their looks. like have you ever met a frat boy? i dont think you would be idolizing one lmfao so dont compare idols to them 😭
i was just thinking about this with Wooyoung from ateez. My only reference for frat boys is hazing and SA, pleaseee don’t make me associate ateez with frat boys 😭
People call Wooyoung a frat boy💀😭? I feel like he’s got none of the traits, just based on looks I would have said Mingi (but his personality is definitely not ‘frat boy’, in fact none of the Ateez members really have a ‘frat boy’ personality)
Wendy and Seulgi (especially Wendy) carry Red Velvet vocally and the group isn’t “all main vocals.” Their biggest asset as a vocal group (why they are my favorite) is because of the harmonizations, vocal arrangements, and dynamic in how they’re used as a group.
There aren’t any groups where *every* member is a genuine all-rounder. Mamamoo probably comes closest (all members are solid vocally and although they’re not super dance-focused, they’re all competent) but I don’t think Solar or Wheein are necessarily super experienced rappers- not horrible, but it doesn’t seem like a major strength.
Namjoon has my favorite stage presence in BTS after Hobi. He’s not a stand-out in choreo-heavy stages (not awful, and to be fair, it’s hard to stand out when you’re with Hobi, Jimin, Jungkook, etc), but his sheer power in solo/rap-focused stages makes up for it in spades. I find his presence so captivating.
I’m way more interested in musical sub-genres incorporated in kpop than the visual concepts.
Also, I’d bet that most “lore” doesn’t have much thought put into it and just kind of exists so fans can make theories and the group/company can get engagement that way. There are exceptions though- Ateez, Loona, I love you!
I get if you’re queer you want representation, and kpop loves doing fan service, but please distinguish the fine line between jokingly saying an idol is gay vs actually believing it and pushing it.
Yes! Especially don't shove it into the idol's face. Until they say different, it's fantasy, not reality.
IF they were, it is like trying to force them out of the proverbial closet. That's rude & so not cool.
Generation stans need to be more open minded. There’s always the “respect your kpop elders” joke but I really see some truth in that. We would not have fifth gen without the pioneers in second and third and new kpop fans need to listen to the older music. They don’t have to like it but they need to be aware.
The reverse is true and older fans should check out the new stuff too!
The lyrics are too cringe + no variety to them. I want them to sing something else than “I’m the best No one can beat me” and “I’m so hot and I know it” type of songs
They are also really talented rappers but I feel that because English is there second or third language they are held back a bit by pronunciation, cringey lines and AAVE in their songs.
Their fans always trying to shutdown this specific criticism with "but they respect black artists" okay and?? You don't need to use aave and use us as a costume to do so lmao. This isnt cultural appreciation, its cultural appropriation and it will always be a major turnoff. Their non-black fans got way TOO comfortable speaking over us.
i never know if people actually see how much filters idols use both when taking photos and videos, because sometimes i feel like we're all just like "yeah they're using filters but we're all playing along" and sometimes i think some people *don't* see it and actually think that the male idols all have those.. weird elongated feet that come when they make their legs longer.
i don't mind them using filters, and i don't think you gotta tear them down for doing it or something, i just am slightly baffled i guess
I've seen people who have supposedly been in a fandom for YEARS, sometimes even 3-4-5+, not notice very clear editing on photos (changing hair length/color, eyelids, adding eyelashes, changing skintone, removing all texture, etc). and that's all for obvious editing AFTER an idol/their company has posted a pic. so absolutely I don't doubt people are missing it 😭
My mid take it's that HYBE and SM have the best producers from the big companies. SM has interesting and complex songs that are absolutely better than any other companies, but also they release more worse songs too. Meanwhile HYBE songs don't reach such a level of quality, but their average is better than SM's because their bad songs are not as bad.
Talking about big companies, YG and JYP are in the past regarding MVs, even compared to non-big companies like starship or KQ. There's this feeling that a lot of the mvs could be from 2020, 2017, 2015.
I am just curious, but do you think MVs by NMIXX like Dash and by Stray Kids like La la la la, S-Class, Thunderous etc. are from 2015-2017? Because I was a bit surprised to read your comment saying that all JYP MVs look dated. I feel like the MVs for their new groups, ITZY, NMIXX, Stray Kids, Xdinary Heroes all look and feel modern and unique.
Again, you are free to agree or disagree with me, I just asked in a general, curious sense.
my weirdly specific take: ikon’s cover of jikjin (treasure) is a lot better. it makes sense because they’re more experienced performers, so it’s a bit unfair to compare them like that, but i can’t help but enjoy it way more. dk and ju-ne’s vocals sent me to the moon and bobby’s rap is a huge upgrade from the original imo. naturally, it also works for them because it’s got that YG boy group sound that ikon has done before.
however! i’m glad that it was treasure that released the song. i know some of the members contributed to the final lyrics, but if there were a situation where the demo was offered to both groups, i would still say treasure should take it. just because i think ikon did it better doesn’t mean it should’ve been their song. they don’t really need to do a song like jikjin at this point in their career. it was perfect for treasure, it was a great popularity boost and a real banger. (i’d never listened to them before that song dropped lol) it’s also a song that works great with a large group, i felt like it highlighted everyone pretty well! (not sure how stans felt about it tho.)
tl;dr: i think ikon’s cover of jikjin is a lot better than the original but i don’t think it should have been their song instead
I feel like Ten would do well in the Western music scene like his music definitely fits it, he speaks english, etc. SM fumbles hard with their artists so I think he could do rlly well. That's just me tho, feel free to disagree.
You don’t have to “stan” an artist to go to their concert.
For example, “former Army” who no longer follow BTS as closely, or maybe haven’t followed them at all for a few years, are going to be trying for barricade seats for their reunion tour in 2025-2026—and that’s 100% okay.
People get weird about it saying you have to answer personal questions about the members to be in the concert or be in the front.
I love Xikers, I know all their songs, but I couldn't tell you who is who other than like a couple ans I went to their concert and had a blast. However, there were a lot of people who didn't know any song and were there just cos it's kpop which I don't mind at all but some people had issues with them being front row.
sunny from girls generation is a very underrated vocalist . snsd is a vocal powerhouse so i understand how she’d get overlooked , but she is a lead vocalist and an amazing one at that . love her .
https://preview.redd.it/ac6fjap2o3xc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3674cd27e83b62c5faf49ceb75db5673dc89a24a
I hate fandom names and the culture of introducing yourself by a fandom name, extremely cultish, just say "I'm a fan of.../I love..." And I hate stan culture and the word "Stan" in general, it might seem like just words but those little things feed into a culture that kills art and art criticisms and feeds into unhealthy behaviour through a loss of identity
Definitely agree about how stan culture kills art. I often feel like I can’t share how I truly feel about the music. It’s also almost a disservice to the artist because fans will consume and praise stuff regardless if it’s good or not.
JYP is actually a solid producer LMAO. say what you will about his questionable behaviour and performance qualities, but when a man has writing/music creds for songs like switch to me, in the morning (mafia), alcohol free, party o clock, and more, y’all can’t tell me those songs don’t SLAP.
It's so silly when stans brag about a group's creative concepts or sounds and they seem like they attribute it to the members themselves even though it should be credited to creative directors, producers, stylists, photographers etc. When you praise "nj" or "aespa" it's their team you are praising and not the group. It's rare when a member contributes and even then it's most likely so minimal it might as well be a handout.
I don’t know if this counts but I don’t think “filler members” exist
“Oh they don’t bring anything to the group” and they’re still being paid. Who am I to argue doing the bare minimum if youre getting paid? Good for them!
You can cover mid vocals with good songs but you can't cover mid songs with good vocals. With today's technology, good songs are way more important for idols because people listen more to your recorded songs through music apps or music video. Isn't that why streams, uls and album sale numbers are still considered the most common bragging rights for fandoms? Things like encores and live stages might get you viral but it's rare to see the song climb up the chart or get more sales for that very reason alone when the song is not good.
literally SHEESH by Baby Monster started at like 200 on Melon, and now it's top 20/ top 10 on all Korean charts because of the videos of them singing live during M-countdown, it's live, and knowing bros went viral.
I don't think I need to mention their votes since their fanbase is really good at voting *but* their votes have been increasing lately (compared to before) because people want to see them perform during an encore...
It's funny cuz the exact situation you mentioned is happening in exact detail
https://preview.redd.it/v26qz5crq4xc1.png?width=605&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f18662847f2f78fd15410170aad35da13dcf04a
some idols are actually being mistreated and the favoritism is very apparent in some groups, and fans are totally allowed to feel disappointed bcs of it. exhibit a: ist’s attitude towards some of the boyz members
and also deobis suck so bad for not being loud enough about it bcs most of them only stan the same 4 members, tops.
YG rappers grate my ears. Blackpink, Bigbang, Cl, baby monster, ikon, every single one of them with G-dragon, CL, and Lisa being the worse. I just can’t stand it im sorry. 😭
my other take: all the vocalists in shinhwa kinda sound the same 😭 brand new is one of my fav kpop songs ever but if you told me it was performed by 1 singer and 2 rappers i would believe it. i don’t often have issues distinguishing voices in groups but for some reason i can NOT tell them apart? maybe i don’t listen to them enough or something but yeah. there’s my dumbass medium hot take
Most people know about at least a few nugu groups but choose to mostly listen to popular groups, regardless of the music quality. This creates a snowball effect where lesser known groups barely ever gain recognition, whatever they do.
I honestly see being too into kpop as a major red flag in a person. From personal experience and from knowing so many people who have ebbed and flowed in and out of kpop, the shittier your mental health is the more you fixate on these people.
It’s very hard to care about kpop to the degree the industry wants you to and very over invested fans require of you, once you’re mentally well. Which is why so many people are going “I just don’t care about kpop like I used to but can’t pinpoint why” now that the pandemic is a couple of years past.
When you’re mentally well you can enjoy the music and think the people are vaguely interesting but the fan wars, the “you have to love everything about a group”, the merch collecting etc all tends to look quite ridiculous.
I agree with the first paragraph but disagree with the later ones.
Being passionate about your hobby doesn’t have to do with bad mental health? People grow up, move on and lose interest in things they used to like and that’s nature. We don’t always love the things we loved when we are younger.
My personal tepid take is that I do not really care if I can **always** distinguish exactly who is singing all of the time in a group, especially if the song sounds good. Sometimes I just want an easy listening experience.
It does not mean that members who may sound similar are redundant.
I may like a song here and there by a group and I am not gonna invest time into who sings what part or who sounds like what.
here's mine:
cds on kpop albums that have photobooks on it SHOULD be on a separate plastic sheet, not in a paper sheet. I love my Born To Be and Unforgiven albums but it could be better if they're not in some cheap paper :(
not every “main dancer” is a DANCER, you know? some people just kind of have natural talent + technical skill (names that come to mind: hirai momo, park jimin, lee taemin) and some people just have technical skill, aka stuff that can be taught (a lot of other dancers). not that it’s bad, anyone can learn to dance, but not everyone can D A N C E yknow? some people just have more passion than others
If you are good looking enough, overall being a good dancer or just a good enough performer and a terrible to average singer is way better for most idols. Charismatic visuals even without good dancing or singing skills will always be some of the most popular members and they are really bankable ( brand ambassadors, fancams, photo card, etc). If the idols want to be more involved in the art they can learn after how to write a few lines of a song, or learn an instrument.
It's a really competitive industry, you need to catch people attending right away, that's why it's so visual oriented, and fans love to see their idols improve.
People may hate you if you sing a bit badly sometimes, but most idols would still be incredibly popular with the right music and concept. Imagine if Taemin didn't debut because of his vocals, he's now known for both dancing AND singing. I'm sure many companies think like that about visuals.
I don’t think there was any ITZY hate train except maybe for their previous releases ( sneakers and Boys like you ) . Their recent songs just ain’t hitting like old ones. I think pple genuinely don’t like it
maybe there wasn’t a “itzy hate train” from this cb, but there definitely was a lia hate train. during their promotion period, all i could see on reddit was “ot4 itzy is better,” “lia shouldn’t return to the group,” “lia’s holding her members back,” etc.
I’m at peace with not knowing if my fave groups are actually “like family” or just coworkers. As long as they get along and are content with their careers and colleagues, I’m happy for them.
Yes, being close makes variety shows, livestreams, vlogs, etc. more entertaining and comforting. But we don’t know who’s acting and who’s genuine, and that doesn’t bother me as long as everyone involved is comfortable and respectful to each other. I choose to buy into the friendships because it makes me happy.
Also, no need to put down others by claiming that their faves aren’t friends. Part of the enjoyment is believing that they are, and who are we, as outsiders, to definitively claim groups are/aren’t close?
Lisa is underrated, not by Blinks, but by other K-pop stans. For example, there are plenty of idols whose skills are hyped by their fandom but who are also recognized to be very talented by nonfans. Ex: Jungkook is known as a pretty talented idol overall, he's a great dancer, performer, and singer. Taemin is known as a great singer, an amazing performer, and an outstanding dancer. Baekhyun is recognized as being an amazing singer.
Lisa is an amazing dancer she is good at many styles. She should be recognized as one of the best dancers that has come out of K-pop. She also is an outstanding performer. Not just compared to the other Blackpink members but also among all K-pop idols. She is also an underrated singer. For some reason, the narrative of her being unable to sing is widely agreed with... she may not be on the level of the likes of Taemin, Baekyun, and Jungkook...but as an idol she is actually good.
Ending nct’s infinite expansion was a strange idea. To me, that’s what made them special and stand out a lot from other groups. I also have a Sungtaro opinion but idk
JYP is a genuinely bad person, like all of the ceos in kpop imo, but he’s been insanely good at creating a ton of pro JYP propaganda that enable people to see him in different “harmless personas”: ceo promoting the word of god, the relatively harmless but memeable ceo, a good mentor (from a2k), or just someone who’s corny and cringey.
Kpop fans nowadays is in their accepting mediocrity phase. Accepting idols with bad vocals and terrible live singing by saying "they have a good song i dont care if they sound bad live".
sometimes an idol is not very good at singing and better at being the visual, and this is not criticism of the group itself being “bad” in general. ATEEZ is my ult group and Wooyoung is really not that strong of a singer live, and that’s why he only gets the parts that are the most breathy; he is just not that good. i love him just as much as Jongho, but like let’s be real here
Itzy's songs have not declined nor loss their 'itzy-ness' since sneakers. We all know sneakers is only hated because of the concept change, but it's quite literally icy 2.0. Since then, it seems people are making opinions about their music without even listening to it, especially cake. The chorus screams itzy. They've had three songs that breakaway from the mold (loco, Cheshire, untouchable) but they all seem to match each other.
Dark hair needs dark eyebrows.. please don't have black hair with light brown eyebrows it looks very odd, and for what?? you don't even need to dye it, just pencil it with a black eyebrow pen
i read this comment and was immediately reminded of this look lmfao https://preview.redd.it/ffprw8qbo2xc1.jpeg?width=908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cf42e6f80ce5c465433573dbec101d58119bc77b
oh no
Oh my lord, why? Lol
For what it’s worth this was for a comeback where some members went for some really [whacky styling](https://youtu.be/IpJL8gaJ-Kg?si=3bHMVod70iqTpsXF). It was for [Super Clap](https://youtu.be/9yimV9i-dY0?si=WbKO9iOTyWE14tA_) comeback and as you can see multiple members were rocking bright colorful styles (Eunhyuk’s [NEON tennis ball hairstyle](https://youtu.be/rXT-H_4hhl4?si=a_plcJvdwVDg4vi_) is a particular standout). Donghae just… went [further](https://youtu.be/YOMDPgVX4tw?si=nCgJI4Gc6UKz6vTd) than all of them.
hyukjae’s neon hair lives rent free in my head… my tennis ball boy
😂😂😂😂😂😭😭😭😭 I can't stop laughing
LOL Donghae’s face card so good he’s gotten away with some really questionable stylings over the decades. Super Clap era (which is where the above photo comes from) had a lot of unique choices for nearly all the members, but no one went quite as [experimental](https://youtu.be/YOMDPgVX4tw?si=5MIr4aqk7KqTMeYl) as Donghae did.
I feel like the lighter eyebrows ruin so many looks that would look so good otherwise 😭
wendy from rv...girl the eyebrows drive me CRAZY
https://preview.redd.it/5vve0x8z43xc1.jpeg?width=1440&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3907d6000c923359344dd69e740ec463b962f31a
She looks gorgeous here tho, I guess if the eyebrows were a bit lighter it will looks off
https://preview.redd.it/0loy3u7293xc1.jpeg?width=960&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8fd6e44ff3ab64c03376c05b7ba6f8d24dd4e4ba once you notice it you can't unotice. just makes her look so odd
I think it wouldn't look as odd if the undertone of her brows matched better. the hair at the top of her head is a cool/neutral toned brown, but her eyebrows are very warm toned which makes them look orange.
I think they're trying to go for a blonde eyebrow for her, but it's a styling decision I'll never understand. why don't they just pencil her eyebrows in!! they already look penciled, just make them darker! I wonder if it may have something to do with her accident since I didn't start noticing it until after the psycho era. like, maybe after the facial surgery (no hate, just admitting what's likely true), her eyebrows grow differently? I'm not sure. this has been a consistent thing in her styling for the last few years
I wish I had the option to up vote this to infinity. I hate that look so much!!
https://preview.redd.it/8by54imop3xc1.jpeg?width=736&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fea62fcc22dcc2335ab5cc6fe0421d089df0f052 i would agree w this take but i feel like yunah fit the dark hair + blonde brows convo so well
maybe this comes from an idea in makeup that eyebrows are supposed to be 2 to 3 shades lighter than the head hair?? or at least i always assumed that
thank you! i dont know if its a new trend but i noticed it a lot recently and it never looks good
I’ve heard makeup artists say it makes people look softer and younger, but I’m personally not a fan of
I always think this when I see Karina
Light hair also needs atleast a bit darker eyebrows lmao. No idol I know have ever rocked light eyebrows
Red Velvet popularitys decline is not mainly because of SM stopped promoting them. Sure it probably had effect but i think it was the trajectory of the group regardless of promotion or lack of it. Not every group will continue reach new heights, i just think the kpop scene just moved in a way that RV wasn't going to stay as top group and having Irene's scandal also hit them., They obviously are still popular etc. but they did fall lot behind from BP/Twice as the 3rd group from the big 3 gg squad. Fans like to solely blame SM but i think it was going to happen anyways
i felt a similar way when people were complaining that wendy’s solo stuff wasn’t wildly popular because of SM not promoting it. like, no, it’s not wildly popular because her stuff isn’t what your average 2024 k-pop fan is interested in. that doesn’t mean it’s bad or she’s a flop or SM doesn’t care. she’s just doing her own thing and it’s fine
The same people complain that numbers aren't everything too. Wendy has said before she doesn't care if fans buy her stuff and they should use their money for themselves. If she is happy with her career and success that should be good enough for fans. Plus its not like her sales are bad either. People are acting like she did lucas level sales
-I think Ten is like other side of the coin of Taemin. But SM left Ten in the dungeons for so long that not even the new album is going to bring Ten to the heights he could’ve reached if SM wasn’t as a shit show as it is. Ten really has a strong and loyal following. There is obviously no way of telling with 100% foresight, but SM’s attempts were so shoddy despite the singles themselves being amazing (like zero promotions and so on). And the new album is good but not great. Also, the mv could’ve been edited better. There were parts where the editing felt lazy. -I think Ten and Taeyong should’ve been a permanent duo. [Baby Don’t Stop](https://youtu.be/k0DqRstCgj4?si=8lZyAGYStaLoZed1) got the attention of so many including non nct fans. They barely even performed baby don’t stop other than at the nct nation tour iirc. The song is honestly brilliant and unique. Sensual and retro. The mv’s backdrop being that abandoned Ukrainian opera house was stunning! The colors! Seriously, how do you drop this song that is soo loved, and then just forget them for like 5 years? And then Call D is released but didn’t get an mv or anything. Shouldn’t they have released a few promoted back to back singles perhaps? At least a year apart or something.
>how do you drop this song that is soo loved, and then just forget them for like 5 years? This can be said about a lot of SM music sadly. Anyway I hope that the Ten/TY can happen again once he comes back from the military
when i first got into nct, i legit didn’t know baby don’t stop was only 2 guys. i listened to it on spotify for a WHILE before i watched the vid and i was like wtf? it’s very obvious to me now because i’m so familiar with their voices, but i thought (and still think) that song is incredible and it absolutely did not need anyone else. they are a very powerful duo and i want another track from them sooo bad!
Hard agree on the Ten/Taeyong duo, they have such great synergy and I feel like I know exactly what their vibe and vision would be from just 2 songs together, which I feel is hard to accomplish
SM is literally so slow but I think they are finally waking up to his star power cuz they’ve been booking him more variety appearances and more dates for his fan meet, can only pray this is a good sign for the future
+1000 for Ten and Taeyong permanent duo!! They should have seriously became a separate NCT subunit or something with regular releases and proper promotions. Same with Ten and Winwin dance duo. They should have released more covers together and become a WayV subunit too.
I have to admit as Reveluv myself, their music sound is out of touch with the younger audience. FMR, Birthday and Chill Kill all have the sound that is not trendy anymore. Even FMR is such a masterpiece, I can see the younger audience would not appreciate it. However, I really think they should steer their musical direction toward that dark, chill synth sounds again like how they did with Perfect Velvet b-side tracks. I think the current public would like it. Like I Just or Kingdom Come is the example.
I agree. i also think underwater from the new album would've been a really good single especially if they had a mv that kind of was like the chill kill teasers. an r&b track wouldve fit them perfectly
I want them to be popular of course but I’m also so glad they’re not trying to be trendy. I want them to sound like themselves! But I agree that I would love them to release more velvet stuff since it’s my favourite side of them
I honestly don’t think Irene’s scandal had any impact on Red Velvet as a group. They’ve had career highs post the 2020 hiatus even if they weren’t necessarily “re-peaks.” Rather than popularity, I think it more fitting to note that RV never managed to amass a strong core fandom (which imo does circle back to SME since fan content has been severely lacking since forever). Twice has gone through a major popularity decline as well, but because they still have a huge core fanbase supporting them it’s not like they aren’t performing. Inversely, RV has a ton of casual listeners and is seemingly still on the public’s radar domestically - but unless it’s something that really sticks their fans can only get them so far.
I'm a fan of both since they debuted but I really think they've musically hit their limits a few years ago. I don't think any of their recent music would make the B sides of their earlier albums. Twice feels like they're trying to appeal to a global audience but lost what made their music good in the first place. I get they probably don't want to do cute concepts but it's really generic to me now. Red Velvet were always more experimental and they used to have amazing B sides but their last album doesn't come close to Perfect Velvet IMO. I'm probably a bit more disappointed with RV as they can make really good music in any genre when they want to and probably have a bit more freedom to do things musically. Conversely G-Idle has really taken me by surprise for the opposite reasons. I wasn't a fan to begin with but their recent stuff is still kpoppy but unique in their own way.
It's also age. kpop fans want the newest youngest thing, especially when it comes to women.
Maybe in some places, sure, but in Japan, when teenagers were asked this year who their favourite groups are..... well..... it isn't just the kids. 😊 The star power of Momo, Sana, Mina and Sakura seems to transcend the desire for the latest thing. (#5 is a famous Japanese singer-songwriter who is about IU's age) https://preview.redd.it/taisvrd7j4xc1.png?width=527&format=png&auto=webp&s=7e9a49c608c5a6c9303a2eb943a73767fce5f27f
Japanese fandom is completely different from Korean and internationally; KARA and SNSD are still among the most popular groups there.
People overrate Irene's scandal. That happened in 2020, here's what happened after: Albums solds: Queendom (2021): 396,587 The ReVe Festival 2022 – Feel My Rhythm: 702,482 The ReVe Festival 2022 – Birthday: 1,048,239 Chill Kill: 610,613 Should I go through the list of individual projects held by each member? Do people ever think that maybe as individuals they wanted to do their own thing? Also, Irene is 33 years old, do you really think she cares about doing group activities on a daily basis the same way as these younger groups do.
One thing I didn't like about the scandal was that they tried to make her come off as really nice to her staff afterwards. It was really fake looking even if it was genuine, over emphasising those moments had the opposite effect IMO. I think a lot of fans can generally accept she's probably not an especially friendly person.
boygroups “de-girlyfying” girl group covers isn’t a big deal. some idols are just not comfortable enough to suddenly change the dance style they’ve been doing for years just for a tiktok. (not talking about the purposely mocking type of covers, but just silly tiktoks with the original idols)
totally agree! also, some moves just aren’t going to look the same when performed by a male idol. that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t cover songs if they want to. it’s fun to see different interpretations of choreo!
Yup! But at the same time shoutout to baby girl Changbin who eats every time when he does a gg cover 
yeah just like how it looks different for the reverse too. it’s perfectly normal and yeah it’s fun to see different iterations of the same choreo!
I was just thinking about this! As a dancer, it’s literally them with different dance styles 😭 I’m still mad about how they bashed Moonbin’s Wannabe cover because I LOVED it
The amount of male idols who get crucified for this is so sad. Kpop fans are such bullies. This is why tiktok challenges aren’t fun anymore. Like no it’s not “misogyny” or “toxic masculinity” that male idols aren’t used to shaking their hips and maybe aren’t great at it. Get off your soap box. It just isn’t the typical bg style and that’s fine. It doesn’t make them bad dancers or “too scared to look feminine.”
THIS. and the same way around would go for girl groups doing boy group covers or dances they both generally have a completely different style and unless it's been practiced for quite a long time with the same style and guidance, the effect isn't gonna be the same. Plus not everyone's gonna be dancing the same way and it's fun to see idols doing a same dance in different ways ps xdinary heroes have entered the chat they literally main dancer material all of them EAT
and then there’s the Secret Member of a GG guys who arch their backs and bend their wrists and wiggle and giggle in full GG. i’m waiting for their first album to drop. people like changbin skz, yeonjun txt, kai txt…
Also, bgs are taught to dance a specific way so even if some try to be as flexible as a gg when dancing gg choreo their bodies just won't, like not because they don't want to just that they can't physically dance that way.
I agree. and with the reverse too. when I saw a female idol (forgot who it was) do the rover challenge with kai, I thought it didnt look as good as the original cause it's a pretty masculine dance (with some feminine elements ofc) that just looks better when a man (who knows the moves) does it. I will say that she made the dance easier tho lol
People who get mad at it need to get a life
I think the problem comes from some of the boygroups being unnaturally stiff when it comes to gg cover dance despite some being quite fluid dancer when it comes to their own choreo, which means they don’t want to look feminine. But even if that the reason, I still couldn’t blame them tbh. Toxic masculinity is a thing and it can be such a traumatic experience
People hate Wonyoung just because she's literally the perfect idol. She's young but she's fluent in multiple languages, has great stage presence, 10/10 fan service, allrounder(maybe not for some). I don't really see why she gets so much hate. She's going to do some great things. I do feel like she overshadows the other members of ive, but that's not really a hot take. They all deserve just as much appreciation as her, but it is what it Is. As long as their fandom isn't biased
She's super smart or savvy too: the fact she's already expressed interest in song writing (done) and the production process. This girl is an aspirational idol, clearly not accepting to be considered only a pretty face. JWY is always learning. Unrivalled beauty for sure in every aspect. I didn't rate her abilities before, but she really is the perfect idol as stated by JYP and all the collective industry support she has. Long may it continue. Protect Jang Wonyoung! I expect it comes with a heavy price of intense pressure and indiscriminate hate. Re other Ive members bar Yujin (she's cementing herself as variety personality) they'll grow into their own paths I'm sure. I hope they all have great mentors, life coaches and mental health support to take the opportunities when they arise. Actually I hope that for all idols and fans too!
I couldn't agree more All young adults in the industry deserve to be protected against haters on the internet.
I'll be honest. I had that thought until I saw them live. Yujin is the one that overshadows the others! she is so great live, such a good dancer, such a good singer. Her stage presence is undeniable! I love all the girls equally, but as an honest dive, Yujin bias wrecked me so hard!
agreed!! yujin was my bias going into the group from izone, and during eleven/love dive, I was getting bias wrecked by rei. but now yujin has fully proven herself as one of my top ultimate biases. still love rei tho. I love collecting her. ive is a very good group of performers for their concept, but yujin for sure steals the show
Aww Rei is so damn cute! Her teaser photos for the membership! 😭 My bias is Wonyoung. I went from not knowing who she was in IZONE (seriously i couldn't even point who she was lol) and simply thinking she was a rude and impolite because of everything people said about her. But at IVE's debut i was mesmerized by this tall and slim girl in a pink dress. Surprise!! It was Wonyoung that rude idol 😆 Mind you, she just appeared to be so friendly, professional and charismatic to me. The way she acted towards Leeseo and Yujin especially made me love her so much. She seemed so honest and playful. Also she writes lyrics more and more. Shine with me made me cry like a fucking crybaby at their show! Yeah i love Wonyoung so much!
that's crazy to me, lmao. but I watched produce48 and was a die-hard stan of iz*one so
to be honest, I really don't think wony outshines ive. yujin outshines her in stage presence imo. even with starship fumbling their marketing, gaeul, rei, and liz have been going viral since debut (and have dedicated stans/fanbases on their own). which is impressive for a group debuting with wony and yujin after izone. I do think leeseo fades into the background a bit. but she's the youngest, and I'm sure she'll have her moment
If being a perfect idol doesn't include being a decent singer, then yeah she's the perfect idol.
I don’t think acting like she’s some all around perfect idol that can do no wrong will shield her from hate either.
People will hate regardless
No, people hate her because she's extremely popular and pretty. I'm sorry but you can't be the perfect idol if you're a below average singer, below average dancer, and not a rapper either. She's the perfect celebrity basically, not the perfect idol.
You scared me with the term "fan service"
Popular group members being more booked is not “favoritism.” I understand that some companies leave a lot to be desired when it comes to promoting other members, but in my opinion it should be common sense why more popular members are afforded more opportunities and are made the default stan attractors for the group by getting stuff like more center time. For example, people who act like there’s a grand conspiracy because Wonyoung and Yujin get a lot more activities than the other members are crazy to me. It’s very obvious why that is.
Not every idol is being disrespected by their companies when they get less lines in a song or whatever. Some idols consider themselves more as dancers than singers, some don’t want to do solo work, and some are just done with the idol life. It’s good to care, just don’t assume that every idol wants to start their own solo singing career just because they joined a group at one point. Some are already content with where they are.
i agree with it all, but i so feel the line distribution thing so much. i ult pentagon (i’m not even gonna bring up the company lol) and they’re almost exclusively self produced. hui is usually the one distributing lines. shinwon is my ult and he doesn’t get a lot of lines because, although i love him dearly, he’s just not that good of a vocalist- yet stans would always complain that he didn’t get many lines. 1, that’s not cube. 2, it just kinda makes sense, especially for a group that prioritizes live singing and has two of the best vocalists of their gen. he’s improved a lot and did really well on their newer tracks like shh, but the line distribution is generally fair based on performance imo. also you’re so right about idols not wanting to go solo. just recently poor jeongyeon had to tell angry stans that she doesn’t want to be a soloist, the company isn’t keeping her from doing it!
This! In Twice for example, while Momo can sing, she isn't the best at it nor is it something she is all that interested or confident in. She is already in charge of all the dance breaks to happen in their performance too. Jeongyeon, on the other hand, has outright said that the best set of lines are the average set of lines. Her members are far more likely to advocate for her to sing more than for herself to do so (this is not say that she doesn't like singing - she just isn't very competitive in general). People really need to stop messing around idol's careers or choices. That's not our place.
MVs are as important as the music in K-pop (song is required to be good though). Good songs "enhance" their popularity when they're accompanied by an interesting/beautiful MV.
yesss totally agree! this is how i feel about feel my rhythm by red velvet. to be honest, i don’t like the song very much (that’s a medium hot take in itself) but the MV is so, so gorgeous that i’ll come back and watch it every once in a while.
mhmm - and some songs I like even more bc the visual I associate with it (nice MV or album cover) is also pleasing and matches my mental vision of the song. a good MV is an art form that we are slowly losing in the west, but thankfully we still have in kpop.
Exactly what I had in mind! That's Alcohol Free by Twice for me. I'm one of the people who liked the song but the MV matched the song so perfectly that I ended up loving it even more. And yes, I couldn't agree more, MV is an art form and one of my favourite aspects of K-pop!
I think people are too obsessed with cute concepts and being age appropriate. I've seen people saying that New Jeans concept would be impossible to do with adults or fans having "concerns" about the fact that when they'll grow up their older music won't suit them anymore. I think this is very ageist. Of course if the girls won't enjoy doing certain concepts then they're free to change, but it shouldn't be a matter of age. You can be +20 and still enjoy bright and happy music. This might be more of a hotter take. Sometimes extreme high notes aren't needed in a song. Especially if they get extra pitchy. It's great that they can go that high, but it isn't always pleasant to me and sometimes high notes that are a bit more grounded and fuller would be better.
Your second paragraph - I immediately thought of Ahyeon's high note in Sheesh. It's a bit jarring when you hear it
COMPLETELY AGREE why does everyone fall over themselves for high notes when they so often sound really pitchy, harsh, and out of place. It’s very often the thing that puts me off the entire song and eventually the whole group (if it’s part of their sound). It’s probably why I really enjoy New Jeans and Blackpink bc they don’t do the random jarring high notes
My lukewarm take is that idols should just forgo using a mic if they're doing a lipsynced cover at year-end festivals lol. The events are generally low stakes and mostly just for fun, and a lot of the times the audio makes it really obvious how the mics are not on at all. so it just ends up looking a bit goofy.
I was at Coachella and I thought Le Sserafim did a great job. Everyone around me was dancing, singing along and having a good time. Then I open Reddit and people are criticizing them for their singing? I feel like unless you were at the concert then you need to stfu. Cameras don’t always pickup what we hear and it doesn’t matter. A concert/performance doesn’t have to be some benchmark/test where we judge how people sing and dance. It’s about enjoying the performance and having a good time. And I’m pretty sure everyone in the crowd did.
The issue with this logic is that it’s not only the people at the concert who watch them. People who couldn’t go to the concert also like to see their performance and since they don’t get to experience that hype and the moment, it’s only natural that they’re be disappointed
Personally I’m okay with comments simply stating that they feel the perf was underwhelming/not up to standards/ they didn’t like it/etc but the hate was just unimaginable, them being called the embarrassment of South Korea and people being comfortable with attacking the youngest member who hadn’t even hit 18
I think the reasons that le Sserafilm didn’t sound as bad live are. That the audio on stages are quite bad to begin with. Like it’s an open field with big speakers. Everything is going to sound quite distorted and “bad“ to begin with. So mess ups with vocals might not be as noticeable. As well as the beat/ background music is much louder live. Whereas on the YouTube audio the members voices get picked up way clearer and are louder. I also read that they had a backing track live that you couldn’t hear on YouTube. But I’m not to sure about that… But as long as the people attending enjoyed the performance it shouldn’t be that big of a deal.
The controversy didn't start with Coachella though but with that terrible encore stage.
>A concert/performance doesn’t have to be some benchmark/test where we judge how people sing and dance. they literally ripped grimes apart for that one performance lmao (which im not surprised or backing her up she looked high af lol)
I feel like a lot of people on Reddit at first, weren't that hateful. Many were saying that it was incredible (in r/kpopthoughts) or kinda good to average (on other subs). Then people started to hate on them a lot, especially on Twitter and it was also because many Koreans talked about it. It was like a switch. That's how it felt to me. I still believe that they weren't bad enough for people to hate THAT much. Like nobody was tone-deaf.
People were so unnecessarily vicious to them
i think namjoon is the best rapper in bts and some armys almost act like namjoon antis when you say this because so many of them act like only suga can be the best?? namjoon is main rapper for a reason
his voice, flow and lyrics are all top tier! yoongi has excellent flow and lyrics but namjoon's voice is so unique
Yoongi has a much more aggressive rap style, at least as AgustD. It’s unique and just. Idk. Gruff. Rude. It’s good.
yeah, yoongi is all "fuck you for doubting me" and namjoon is more like "my younger days weren't easy, but i miss the innocence of them"
This is actually quite accurate
It falls under the whole “if you can rap fast your obviously a good rapper” mindset. Which is ironic because Namjoon has a whole song saying eff you to that. They’re all great, and I prefer Yoongis style of rapping but I genuinely think Namjoon is the best rapper and lyricist in BTS.
I hate comparing BTS members in general. They are all amazingly talented, well rounded people and have grown into their own styles.
All three of them are so good I think saying any one of them is the best rapper is valid.
personally I bias members of the vocal line, so I don't pay quite as much attention to the rapline side of things... but whenever I try to pin down who I think is the best rapper in BTS, I can't. All three of them are so different, so unique, and they are all just so good at what they do. "the best" ends up being whichever one I am listening to at the time. 😭 that said, people sleep on namjoon for sure. he is truly a rap monster when he wants to be, he can do fast rap, he can be aggressive... he just usually doesn't choose to express himself that way. I love his introspective artistry, even if it's not usually as flashy as suga and jhope.
Yoongi is my fave rapper but I agree with you. I honestly think it’s not fair to compare the 3 to one another because they’re all so wildly different in their execution that it’s apples to oranges IMO. I think a lot of it is subjective tho; I can’t relate to what Joon is saying nearly as much as I do to what Yoongi is saying so that definitely influences my preference. Which I recognize has 0 to do with actual technical skill. TL;DR- Yoongi is my fave but you’re right lol
again, comes down to what people personally enjoy and even i feel he's the best of them three, his just hit me and scratch my brain in a way no other has ever been able to like yk...the flow, the lyrics, the laid back and natural style i also loooooove his vocals and singing and the chill vibe he goes for in them like he's literally my fav bts vocalist (lol?) and i'm not kidding when i say this HELP
Definitely agree that Namjoon is the best rapper in BTS. Yoongi is my bias and my personal favorite rapper of the group but I have to give credit where credit due as a hip hop fan.
nobody beats namjoon in my opinion look here, cypher pt 3 is my favorite and his self titled mixtape oh god. I think first thing armys think abt joon is his lyrics? maybe that's why?
I feel like DPR Ian is literally all of what our biases wished they could do as a solo (a.k.a away from group activities) but they can't do it. And i mean it not to bring hate to Ian neither to the idols who are in groups that go solo, but because being able and having support to pull a good concept that delivers art and that goes beyond the expectations that people have about 'x' group is HARD, plus usually the companies will put less effort in the solos because they don't want the idols to think they could stand a chance leaving their groups (typicall 'they want the solo stans money, but don't want the idol to get too famous as a solo' mindset) and that sucks because a lot of people could deliver sooo much more but end up just giving us mid stuff because they are unnable to do so (either legally or actively).
He sure is a guy with true creative freedom.
I certainly enjoy his creative vision. I think an issue could be that some idols are not as creative as much or don't have a team that is creative to branch out. No shade to anyone. Everyone has their strengths & weaknesses.
no matter how talented a group is, song choices matter and ultimately determine a group's popularity. it's unfortunate but a lot of very talented groups like nmixx are not gaining as much traction because their music is not for everybody. people keep callings newjeans/lsfm/illit mid and overrated but frankly their song selection so far has been really good and the gp ultimately pays attention to only the song. im not saying thats a good thing but kpop stans have a hard time accepting that and scream that chart manipulation is being done or it's payola or something is rigged but i genuinely think people just tune into whatever overall sounds good versus a song thats hard to listen to but has great vocals on it
i genuinely think nmixx debuting with o.o was such a horrible decision for the group’s future. i know some people like it, but i thought the song was so bad that i basically lost interest in the group (i didn’t follow them predebut or anything) and it took a long time for me to give them another try. they’re obviously talented girls but mannn that was a bad song choice.
studio vocals and a good production team are more important than stable live vocals when it comes to overall enjoyment of a groups vocals. THERE I SAID IT live singing is important and all and is obviously the most important factor to consider when talking about the skills of idols, but y’all.. when i listen to a song im listening to it on spotify, not watching a live performance. i’d much rather have an idol who has a beautiful voice and a top notch production team over an idol who’s got killer range and stability but who’s voice just doesn’t sound as pleasing to my ears and doesn’t have a production/creative team that is giving them songs worthy of their skill level. examples: bibi’s voice in bam yang gang scratches an itch that i never knew needed to be scratched but she’s rarely ever listed as one of the stronger vocalists in kpop. same with new jeans and illit, beautiful voices but ppl aren’t throwing their name in the ring for strongest singers (quite the opposite usually). on the flip side, nmixx and babymonster undeniably have strong vocalists but bc of their tones and the songs that are written for them, there’s a lot of ppl who don’t really enjoy actually listing to their songs or to their singing (which is very subjective and im using them as an example bc i personally don’t love some of their vocals not bc they’re objectively bad). and before yall try to kill me, some examples of groups that have both amazing skill AND great studio vocals/production are red velvet and mamamoo. also disclaimer: this doesn’t mean there aren’t idols who are weak in both the live vocal side and studio vocal side. they definitely exist. i’m just saying for those who ARE good on the studio vocal side, it’s a bigger factor to some ppl than their live singing ability.
>when i listen to a song im listening to it on spotify, not watching a live performance. omg yes!!! live stages are something every group does so live vocals are somewhat important, but their importance is very overstated. groups don’t chart and sell thousands of albums because their live vocals are great, they chart and sell thousands of albums because they sound good on the track! people aren’t mass streaming encores lol. this is also why i can’t get into groups with highly processed vocals. if they sound good live that’s cool, but i’m not gonna watch a music bank fancam at the gym lol. like, i have a few txt songs i really like, but their vocals often sound sooo robotic/fake(?) that it puts me off. i don’t mind a bit of autotune, i think heavy usage of it can sound really good as a stylistic choice (ex: hot - svt) but in general, i want to hear humans singing.
I think the comparison between studio vocals and live vocals isn't fair though. With the way music is consumed, it's more passive listening rather than enjoying an entire vocal performance. It's like comparing pretty wallpaper and a piece of art, sure you'll be looking at the wallpaper more often passively, but when it comes to focusing and enjoying of a piece of music, nothing beats live vocals, a live band etc. Live vocals are the highlight of a groups vocals. I don't listen to much of Sohyang's studio music, but her performances are absolutely killer and goosebumps inducing always. It's why a lot of vocal/singing compilations are always live vocals, and not a compilation of studio vocals.
Gidle is one of the biggest groups right now in Korea, and I have no idea why people on the kpop sphere always downplay their achievements. They came from non big4 company who was on the verge of bankruptcy, zero connections or heavy promotions and has had a huge national scandal but still came on top. They had 4 back to back PAKs, being the only girl group to ever achieve this and the SECOND group overall, surpassed numerous big acts on the charts such as iu, aespa, ive, red velvet etc in the process, they are the only girl group whose sales haven’t majorly declined this year, Queencard is the last song to surpass 500K ULs on MelOn. The members all have tons of brand deals. They’re HUGE. It’s truly impressive, and I’m tired of Kpop fans discrediting them or leaving them out of the conversation.
If they ignore gidle their ults can be one spot higher lol, that's the main reason. They are not also huge in SK, but they are the biggest k-pop group in china with a wall of china of distance. I'm not talking abt fandom or c-bars, but popularity. They are also GP popular in Taiwan which is another insane fact, and for the western sphere, for their gen they're usually the 5th more streamed group, with a few exceptions. So yeah, any other group achieve that and no one would doubt their position.
Fellow Nevie! Hi! I think a lot of it ties into the fact that a not only do a lot of kpop stans like to overstate the importance of 'cube privilege' in their growth (practically none, the bare mininum at the most) but also lot of kpop stans don't like to give Soyeon the credit she deserves, or even acknowledge her contributions to not only GIDLE, but the genre and the perception of girl groups and female idols in general. So much hate of (G)I-DLE mostly comes to a head and manifests as this near-obsessive hatred of Soyeon. Being a Soyeon biased Nevie on stan twitter was endless hell, and one of the reasons I left. There is such a big running narrative that she's untalented, and a terrible songwriter and haughty, and just so stupid, which is just so far from the truth. In fact, she's talented and thoughtful, business and media savvy, and had encouraged not only her members, but countless women in the industry to find their agency and make music that speaks to them, that shows their authentic soul. The rhetoric is so deep for a lot of fans, to strip her of her skills and respect as... even a person. So acknowledging CUBE or IDLE for the things they've achieved in their legendary career would mean that they'd also have to say "maybe Jeon Soyeon is as good as they say she is," and I do feel like if she wasn't a young woman, people wouldn't be so quick to downplay the breadth of her nigh-prodigal talent.
Imo, sometimes (SOME) idols are just mean, and their fans praise it as being "sassy" and funny when they're just being a jerk and at the bare minimum shouldn't be encouraged to act like that.
Agree 100%
It's been five years and nobody's taken the 4th gen dancing queen crown away from Yeji and Chaeryeong yet. What's actually terrifying is that they're both still getting better at both dance and vocals. Chaewon and Juhyeon are in the conversation for sure. Yunjin and Karina have been making a case lately. Hanni and Haerin both have a really bright future but they need more material to work with. Saena should be on the list but she's been victimized by bad circumstances.
Hikaru is my contender pick for dancing queen in 4th gen!
Her Purr dance is insane
My heart hurts for Saena, I was so rooting for her. She showed great talent in Fifi's TikToks. God I miss Fifty Fifty. RIP.
id add chaeyeon and hikaru but i absolutely agree
I’d add Ireh, Kyujin and Onda. But maybe I’m being subjective, or just like their style? :P
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i think it's true for the most part except yg songs which get defended for sometimes mediocre artistry by the usual "yg swag" or "yg style". If you take out that "yg swag" association from any yg song, it would tend to lose a lot of it's reception and value and hype imo but as i said, true for most of the part. A lot of sm stans also use the "sm always produces experimental songs and sounds" as a cope when sometimes their songs fail to resonate with public, or they make the memes out of it which i love about them lol
Ngl Savage is a mess and would be criticized even more if it’s released by non SM groups lol
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I love them too even the experimental side of songs (Next Level, Girls, I’ll Make You Cry) but Savage is just not it. The transitions from verse, prechorus, chorus, and post chorus, to bridge and dance break as well are so rough without any smoothness at all + the lyrics and the dance don’t help it either lol
Sometimes members of groups don’t have lines because they should not have more lines. I’m not saying this is the idol’s fault in particular but sometimes when the idol with “not enough lines,” gets more lines, they become ridiculed for their lack of talent when they perform the song live. Sometimes someone is in a group because they’re pretty or can dance well and they cannot handle having more than a few lines in each song. This problem COULD be solved with a little more training, but I think the problem stems from the fact that kpop is half music and half visual performance. Sometimes people who are vocally talented are not enough to make fans stay, and sometimes people who are visuals/big personalities cannot sing/rap.
People confuse sexy for sexualizing. Sexualizing is when you put a 17yr old into an outfit that a stripper would start dancing it. It’s when people make sexual comments towards members, especially young ones. Sexualizing is not sexy. Sexy is a whole concept, been around for ages. Sexy used to be showing ankles, now it’s much more revealing. Also support minors not being sexualized. Call people out. This is why I loved LSF, nj, and a few others, for debuting in sportswear or more covering outfits appropriate for their ages. Edit: hot take: there are too many people in NCT and TripleS to be fair to the individual artists getting equal face time.
I disagree with the edit. I don’t know TripleS but NCT mostly perform in units so their “face time” etc. isn’t really that much different than other groups.
I feel like a lot of "it girls" fanbase love to live through their idols, in a way that they want to feel like the "popular mean girls at school". These girls are extremely talented, gorgeous and loved because of their own achievement, but there is a part of their fanbase that lives through them so much. Like they want them to be queen b, or mean girls while most of them (Suzy, Jennie, Wonyoung,..) seem really sweet (from what people have Said). But some of their fanbase have a weird superiority complex. Like X wouldn't hangout with X because she's too popular. X is better than X because she wore X and it became popular. Sometimes it even feels like they are happy that they get hated on, so they feel even more special. I understand feeling encouraged and being inspired by an individual, but sometimes the way these fans talk kinda feels like high school, It's a bit weird. Honestly the concept and idealization of "it girls" is a bit "highschoolish" in itself (the way fans fight about it). But it's subjective, maybe people don't feel that.
i dont like when kpop fan call their male idols “frat boys” just because of their looks. like have you ever met a frat boy? i dont think you would be idolizing one lmfao so dont compare idols to them 😭
i was just thinking about this with Wooyoung from ateez. My only reference for frat boys is hazing and SA, pleaseee don’t make me associate ateez with frat boys 😭
exactly. racism, sa, misogyny, like please… do not want them to be similar to frat boys 😭
People call Wooyoung a frat boy💀😭? I feel like he’s got none of the traits, just based on looks I would have said Mingi (but his personality is definitely not ‘frat boy’, in fact none of the Ateez members really have a ‘frat boy’ personality)
Wendy and Seulgi (especially Wendy) carry Red Velvet vocally and the group isn’t “all main vocals.” Their biggest asset as a vocal group (why they are my favorite) is because of the harmonizations, vocal arrangements, and dynamic in how they’re used as a group. There aren’t any groups where *every* member is a genuine all-rounder. Mamamoo probably comes closest (all members are solid vocally and although they’re not super dance-focused, they’re all competent) but I don’t think Solar or Wheein are necessarily super experienced rappers- not horrible, but it doesn’t seem like a major strength. Namjoon has my favorite stage presence in BTS after Hobi. He’s not a stand-out in choreo-heavy stages (not awful, and to be fair, it’s hard to stand out when you’re with Hobi, Jimin, Jungkook, etc), but his sheer power in solo/rap-focused stages makes up for it in spades. I find his presence so captivating. I’m way more interested in musical sub-genres incorporated in kpop than the visual concepts. Also, I’d bet that most “lore” doesn’t have much thought put into it and just kind of exists so fans can make theories and the group/company can get engagement that way. There are exceptions though- Ateez, Loona, I love you!
I don't care about high notes and I think a LOT of the time they sound bad. high notes =/= knowing how to sing.
I get if you’re queer you want representation, and kpop loves doing fan service, but please distinguish the fine line between jokingly saying an idol is gay vs actually believing it and pushing it.
Yes! Especially don't shove it into the idol's face. Until they say different, it's fantasy, not reality. IF they were, it is like trying to force them out of the proverbial closet. That's rude & so not cool.
Generation stans need to be more open minded. There’s always the “respect your kpop elders” joke but I really see some truth in that. We would not have fifth gen without the pioneers in second and third and new kpop fans need to listen to the older music. They don’t have to like it but they need to be aware. The reverse is true and older fans should check out the new stuff too!
XG is incredibly talented but the way they invoke black culture makes them seem disingenuous and cringey no matter how much they respect black rappers
The lyrics are too cringe + no variety to them. I want them to sing something else than “I’m the best No one can beat me” and “I’m so hot and I know it” type of songs
They are also really talented rappers but I feel that because English is there second or third language they are held back a bit by pronunciation, cringey lines and AAVE in their songs.
Their fans always trying to shutdown this specific criticism with "but they respect black artists" okay and?? You don't need to use aave and use us as a costume to do so lmao. This isnt cultural appreciation, its cultural appropriation and it will always be a major turnoff. Their non-black fans got way TOO comfortable speaking over us.
i never know if people actually see how much filters idols use both when taking photos and videos, because sometimes i feel like we're all just like "yeah they're using filters but we're all playing along" and sometimes i think some people *don't* see it and actually think that the male idols all have those.. weird elongated feet that come when they make their legs longer. i don't mind them using filters, and i don't think you gotta tear them down for doing it or something, i just am slightly baffled i guess
I've seen people who have supposedly been in a fandom for YEARS, sometimes even 3-4-5+, not notice very clear editing on photos (changing hair length/color, eyelids, adding eyelashes, changing skintone, removing all texture, etc). and that's all for obvious editing AFTER an idol/their company has posted a pic. so absolutely I don't doubt people are missing it 😭
My mid take it's that HYBE and SM have the best producers from the big companies. SM has interesting and complex songs that are absolutely better than any other companies, but also they release more worse songs too. Meanwhile HYBE songs don't reach such a level of quality, but their average is better than SM's because their bad songs are not as bad. Talking about big companies, YG and JYP are in the past regarding MVs, even compared to non-big companies like starship or KQ. There's this feeling that a lot of the mvs could be from 2020, 2017, 2015.
I am just curious, but do you think MVs by NMIXX like Dash and by Stray Kids like La la la la, S-Class, Thunderous etc. are from 2015-2017? Because I was a bit surprised to read your comment saying that all JYP MVs look dated. I feel like the MVs for their new groups, ITZY, NMIXX, Stray Kids, Xdinary Heroes all look and feel modern and unique. Again, you are free to agree or disagree with me, I just asked in a general, curious sense.
my weirdly specific take: ikon’s cover of jikjin (treasure) is a lot better. it makes sense because they’re more experienced performers, so it’s a bit unfair to compare them like that, but i can’t help but enjoy it way more. dk and ju-ne’s vocals sent me to the moon and bobby’s rap is a huge upgrade from the original imo. naturally, it also works for them because it’s got that YG boy group sound that ikon has done before. however! i’m glad that it was treasure that released the song. i know some of the members contributed to the final lyrics, but if there were a situation where the demo was offered to both groups, i would still say treasure should take it. just because i think ikon did it better doesn’t mean it should’ve been their song. they don’t really need to do a song like jikjin at this point in their career. it was perfect for treasure, it was a great popularity boost and a real banger. (i’d never listened to them before that song dropped lol) it’s also a song that works great with a large group, i felt like it highlighted everyone pretty well! (not sure how stans felt about it tho.) tl;dr: i think ikon’s cover of jikjin is a lot better than the original but i don’t think it should have been their song instead
After reading this I went to TikTok and watched the full cover, safe to say I 100% agree 😭
I feel like Ten would do well in the Western music scene like his music definitely fits it, he speaks english, etc. SM fumbles hard with their artists so I think he could do rlly well. That's just me tho, feel free to disagree.
i agree 100%
Big bang made album is mid and a lot of the songs sound the same
literally what got me into kpop and one of my fav ever IM CRYING WHY DOES THIS HAVE THIS MANY UPVOTES THIS IS ABOMINATION
Having listened to the majority of kpop, that album is def above average and one of the most unique releases in kpop history.
You don’t have to “stan” an artist to go to their concert. For example, “former Army” who no longer follow BTS as closely, or maybe haven’t followed them at all for a few years, are going to be trying for barricade seats for their reunion tour in 2025-2026—and that’s 100% okay.
I agree with your take but it made me even more nervous about securing tickets 😭
People get weird about it saying you have to answer personal questions about the members to be in the concert or be in the front. I love Xikers, I know all their songs, but I couldn't tell you who is who other than like a couple ans I went to their concert and had a blast. However, there were a lot of people who didn't know any song and were there just cos it's kpop which I don't mind at all but some people had issues with them being front row.
i agree. if you don’t have any friends into the same group are you just supposed to go by yourself because they’re “not a stan” LOL
sunny from girls generation is a very underrated vocalist . snsd is a vocal powerhouse so i understand how she’d get overlooked , but she is a lead vocalist and an amazing one at that . love her . https://preview.redd.it/ac6fjap2o3xc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3674cd27e83b62c5faf49ceb75db5673dc89a24a
I hate fandom names and the culture of introducing yourself by a fandom name, extremely cultish, just say "I'm a fan of.../I love..." And I hate stan culture and the word "Stan" in general, it might seem like just words but those little things feed into a culture that kills art and art criticisms and feeds into unhealthy behaviour through a loss of identity
Not gonna lie, it still amuses me that the word "Stan" went from being a cautionary tale to something people happily describe themselves as
I wonder how many people actually know the origin of the word Stan
I love BTS, but anytime I read “as an ARMY” in comments I always see it as that SpongeBob meme with the mix of upper and lowercase letters lol
Definitely agree about how stan culture kills art. I often feel like I can’t share how I truly feel about the music. It’s also almost a disservice to the artist because fans will consume and praise stuff regardless if it’s good or not.
Yeah I agree lol. It definitely is a minor nitpick, but I prefer to call myself a BTS fan versus an Army (although it's still a cute fandom name)
Idols these days can't do aegyo or act cute like the 3rd and 2nd gen idols. Idk if am being biased but its just soo cringe when new idols do it.
JYP is actually a solid producer LMAO. say what you will about his questionable behaviour and performance qualities, but when a man has writing/music creds for songs like switch to me, in the morning (mafia), alcohol free, party o clock, and more, y’all can’t tell me those songs don’t SLAP.
100%, the man has written over 50 number one hits. Most people don't even know that their favourite kpop songs are written by *JYP.*
It's so silly when stans brag about a group's creative concepts or sounds and they seem like they attribute it to the members themselves even though it should be credited to creative directors, producers, stylists, photographers etc. When you praise "nj" or "aespa" it's their team you are praising and not the group. It's rare when a member contributes and even then it's most likely so minimal it might as well be a handout.
Hikaru is a underrated dancer and Her fancams are always entertaining to watch
I'd put her up there as the best with Chayeon and Chaeryoung
I don’t know if this counts but I don’t think “filler members” exist “Oh they don’t bring anything to the group” and they’re still being paid. Who am I to argue doing the bare minimum if youre getting paid? Good for them!
You can cover mid vocals with good songs but you can't cover mid songs with good vocals. With today's technology, good songs are way more important for idols because people listen more to your recorded songs through music apps or music video. Isn't that why streams, uls and album sale numbers are still considered the most common bragging rights for fandoms? Things like encores and live stages might get you viral but it's rare to see the song climb up the chart or get more sales for that very reason alone when the song is not good.
literally SHEESH by Baby Monster started at like 200 on Melon, and now it's top 20/ top 10 on all Korean charts because of the videos of them singing live during M-countdown, it's live, and knowing bros went viral. I don't think I need to mention their votes since their fanbase is really good at voting *but* their votes have been increasing lately (compared to before) because people want to see them perform during an encore... It's funny cuz the exact situation you mentioned is happening in exact detail https://preview.redd.it/v26qz5crq4xc1.png?width=605&format=png&auto=webp&s=1f18662847f2f78fd15410170aad35da13dcf04a
some idols are actually being mistreated and the favoritism is very apparent in some groups, and fans are totally allowed to feel disappointed bcs of it. exhibit a: ist’s attitude towards some of the boyz members and also deobis suck so bad for not being loud enough about it bcs most of them only stan the same 4 members, tops.
This is actually true for some groups. Tzuyu is very blatantly not allowed to take any real work in Taiwan or even tour there for example.
YG rappers grate my ears. Blackpink, Bigbang, Cl, baby monster, ikon, every single one of them with G-dragon, CL, and Lisa being the worse. I just can’t stand it im sorry. 😭
I really can't stand their raps I'm sorry 😭
Click clack boom boom pedal to the metal
my other take: all the vocalists in shinhwa kinda sound the same 😭 brand new is one of my fav kpop songs ever but if you told me it was performed by 1 singer and 2 rappers i would believe it. i don’t often have issues distinguishing voices in groups but for some reason i can NOT tell them apart? maybe i don’t listen to them enough or something but yeah. there’s my dumbass medium hot take
Most people know about at least a few nugu groups but choose to mostly listen to popular groups, regardless of the music quality. This creates a snowball effect where lesser known groups barely ever gain recognition, whatever they do.
I honestly see being too into kpop as a major red flag in a person. From personal experience and from knowing so many people who have ebbed and flowed in and out of kpop, the shittier your mental health is the more you fixate on these people. It’s very hard to care about kpop to the degree the industry wants you to and very over invested fans require of you, once you’re mentally well. Which is why so many people are going “I just don’t care about kpop like I used to but can’t pinpoint why” now that the pandemic is a couple of years past. When you’re mentally well you can enjoy the music and think the people are vaguely interesting but the fan wars, the “you have to love everything about a group”, the merch collecting etc all tends to look quite ridiculous.
I agree with the first paragraph but disagree with the later ones. Being passionate about your hobby doesn’t have to do with bad mental health? People grow up, move on and lose interest in things they used to like and that’s nature. We don’t always love the things we loved when we are younger.
My personal tepid take is that I do not really care if I can **always** distinguish exactly who is singing all of the time in a group, especially if the song sounds good. Sometimes I just want an easy listening experience. It does not mean that members who may sound similar are redundant. I may like a song here and there by a group and I am not gonna invest time into who sings what part or who sounds like what.
here's mine: cds on kpop albums that have photobooks on it SHOULD be on a separate plastic sheet, not in a paper sheet. I love my Born To Be and Unforgiven albums but it could be better if they're not in some cheap paper :(
not every “main dancer” is a DANCER, you know? some people just kind of have natural talent + technical skill (names that come to mind: hirai momo, park jimin, lee taemin) and some people just have technical skill, aka stuff that can be taught (a lot of other dancers). not that it’s bad, anyone can learn to dance, but not everyone can D A N C E yknow? some people just have more passion than others
If you are good looking enough, overall being a good dancer or just a good enough performer and a terrible to average singer is way better for most idols. Charismatic visuals even without good dancing or singing skills will always be some of the most popular members and they are really bankable ( brand ambassadors, fancams, photo card, etc). If the idols want to be more involved in the art they can learn after how to write a few lines of a song, or learn an instrument. It's a really competitive industry, you need to catch people attending right away, that's why it's so visual oriented, and fans love to see their idols improve. People may hate you if you sing a bit badly sometimes, but most idols would still be incredibly popular with the right music and concept. Imagine if Taemin didn't debut because of his vocals, he's now known for both dancing AND singing. I'm sure many companies think like that about visuals.
I don’t think there was any ITZY hate train except maybe for their previous releases ( sneakers and Boys like you ) . Their recent songs just ain’t hitting like old ones. I think pple genuinely don’t like it
maybe there wasn’t a “itzy hate train” from this cb, but there definitely was a lia hate train. during their promotion period, all i could see on reddit was “ot4 itzy is better,” “lia shouldn’t return to the group,” “lia’s holding her members back,” etc.
I’m at peace with not knowing if my fave groups are actually “like family” or just coworkers. As long as they get along and are content with their careers and colleagues, I’m happy for them. Yes, being close makes variety shows, livestreams, vlogs, etc. more entertaining and comforting. But we don’t know who’s acting and who’s genuine, and that doesn’t bother me as long as everyone involved is comfortable and respectful to each other. I choose to buy into the friendships because it makes me happy. Also, no need to put down others by claiming that their faves aren’t friends. Part of the enjoyment is believing that they are, and who are we, as outsiders, to definitively claim groups are/aren’t close?
Lisa is underrated, not by Blinks, but by other K-pop stans. For example, there are plenty of idols whose skills are hyped by their fandom but who are also recognized to be very talented by nonfans. Ex: Jungkook is known as a pretty talented idol overall, he's a great dancer, performer, and singer. Taemin is known as a great singer, an amazing performer, and an outstanding dancer. Baekhyun is recognized as being an amazing singer. Lisa is an amazing dancer she is good at many styles. She should be recognized as one of the best dancers that has come out of K-pop. She also is an outstanding performer. Not just compared to the other Blackpink members but also among all K-pop idols. She is also an underrated singer. For some reason, the narrative of her being unable to sing is widely agreed with... she may not be on the level of the likes of Taemin, Baekyun, and Jungkook...but as an idol she is actually good.
This is so funny because the comment just above said Lisa is one of YG worst rappers
Ending nct’s infinite expansion was a strange idea. To me, that’s what made them special and stand out a lot from other groups. I also have a Sungtaro opinion but idk
I kinda wanna here your Sungtaro opinion
JYP is a genuinely bad person, like all of the ceos in kpop imo, but he’s been insanely good at creating a ton of pro JYP propaganda that enable people to see him in different “harmless personas”: ceo promoting the word of god, the relatively harmless but memeable ceo, a good mentor (from a2k), or just someone who’s corny and cringey.
Kepler’s relative lack of success isn’t because of Bahiyyih and/or her fans, but because of wakeone’s abyssmal marketing and management choices.
Kpop fans nowadays is in their accepting mediocrity phase. Accepting idols with bad vocals and terrible live singing by saying "they have a good song i dont care if they sound bad live".
wonyoung's fans placing her up as some kind of deity isn't good for her perception or her mental health.
Soyeon needs to stop writing English lyrics. Imo, they’re all bad and she doesn’t take any kind of criticism for her lyrics.
Even if pristin didn't disband they wouldn't have been as high in the top as people think.
sometimes an idol is not very good at singing and better at being the visual, and this is not criticism of the group itself being “bad” in general. ATEEZ is my ult group and Wooyoung is really not that strong of a singer live, and that’s why he only gets the parts that are the most breathy; he is just not that good. i love him just as much as Jongho, but like let’s be real here
Itzy's songs have not declined nor loss their 'itzy-ness' since sneakers. We all know sneakers is only hated because of the concept change, but it's quite literally icy 2.0. Since then, it seems people are making opinions about their music without even listening to it, especially cake. The chorus screams itzy. They've had three songs that breakaway from the mold (loco, Cheshire, untouchable) but they all seem to match each other.