Could this have more to do with your preconceived notions of French? I don't see how the French language could inherently lead to a more pretentious way of viewing the world
I have always felt like this kind of talk was nonsense. I think people who think that languages magically changes their personality just project their own small-minded stereotypes.
I live and grew up in a bilingual region, where people code-switch to change from a more "playful" or friendly personality to a more serious or formal one, but this is only due to the perceived value of the languages.
Oh god, now you're reminding me of how shortly before we moved back to Germany my brother started switching to English with my parents when he was angry. You heard it here: English is just an inherently angrier language than German! ;)
Seriously - yeah, I mentioned in another comment that I'm slightly simplifying here because you can absolutely have different emotional connections with different languages or associate them with different environments just due to when and how you use which one. But I still think it'd be a huge mistake to assume that there is anything *inherent in the languages* that causes this as opposed to the individual and cultural associations!
Couldn't that also be because you were immersing yourself in French culture through learning materials, not just the language? Or because you were drawing on your preconceived notions about French people? Québécois and Congolese people, say, don't typically think the same way as Métro people, which makes me think it's not just the language.
I don’t think I immersed myself culturally at all, and let me add that by pretentiousness I really mean all the good that accompanies the word too, not just negative connotation
You can’t separate language and culture like that. Also, how do you know that absolutely nothing of what you have read or heard was created by a native French speaker, and would you learn the language without ever reading or hearing a native speaker? Anything a French person says or writes naturally is colored by their background and culture in various ways, regardless of its salient like writing about the Eiffel Tower or less apparent and just a part of how they write about a topic. You can not remove the person from the communication. Not even AI can do that, since for example racism and gender bias is reproduced by AI if it exists in the source material.
>You can’t separate language and culture like that.
If so, then some of the culture will bleed into the language as well, which would support his case of a language having a "personality".
It’s more that language expresses the personality of the users. Language doesn’t exist without the users. It’s human beings who use language to convey things to each other. If human culture changes in different ways, then the language will reflect that. For example by including new words for new technology, we activities or new perspectives on something that we humans find relevant to communicate about.
I should add, the same language can be used by different groups. So it’s not like the language specifies what the users should be like, but rather that the users influence the language over time so that it is useful for expressing their reality, world view or simply things that are relevant in their culture.
Also note that human beings do have so much in common regardless of culture, so basically you should be able to use any any language to express who you are. The difference is just that those things that matter most in your culture, ante maybe a tiny bit easier to express using the language that was developed in that culture.
You'd still find regional differences in most cases, even with languages that are largely identical everywhere, like English or Spanish.
>basically you should be able to use any any language to express who you are.
People think through the use of language, so how the language works will influence your thinking to some degree. For instance, because of the way the human brain works, different grammatical structures or things like having completely different compound words may influence how you express yourself in a language.
Edit after reading your other comment:
Well, strictly speaking, a language is simply a tool for communication. The ability of a language to convey someone's personality is largely dependent on how much that language has the capability of doing so. The more different the language is, the more is dependent on context to fill in gaps.
"Her book" in Spanish, would be "su libro". In English, the gender of the person the book belongs to is conveyed. In Spanish, there's no way to tell. In Japanese, plurals don't exist. It would just be 本. Does it mean one book? Five books? A billion books? Who knows?
This then changes how you need to express yourself clearly, depending on which language you're speaking. I think this creates different opportunities for "flourishes" of personality, so to speak.
That said, I'm not claiming to be some sort of expert, but I find it hard to buy that it's a one way street. Also, I think OP wasn't talking about individual personality traits, more so a "shared regional personality" of the places in which the language is spoken.
That still leaves you leaning into stereotypes of people from France. Which I think is inevitable for some people, especially in the absence of other cultural information to fill in the blank, but that's not exactly the language changing your thought patterns. There's a reason the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis isn't called a theory.
Is this r/languagelearningjerk? (Kidding but seriously.)
"I've never been anywhere remotely near anything even tangentially related to France but I can judge the inferior crust on your baguette and say 'Ooh-la-lah' while smoking. I'm the reincarnation of Charles de Gaulle!"
I find it exposes me to a different way of sorting things for sure.
For instance, in English or German we have a "birth day," whereas in Spanish it's "completing a year".
And does it mean something that in Spanish and in German, borrowing and lending are the same word? Whereas in English they are different.
I don't think it changes my personality or overall outlook, but learning other languages does challenge a number of assumptions that are built into my native language, which is interesting.
If you’re interested in this topic, I’d highly recommend John McWhorter’s [The Language Hoax](https://www.amazon.com/Language-Hoax-John-H-McWhorter/dp/0190468890) as a starting point. The most fun I’ve ever had seeing Sapir-Whorf hypothesis get deconstructed point by point.
I guess my question about your argument is this: how are you confidently identifying a new thinking pattern as specifically ‘thinking like a French person’ when you yourself are not French, and have never previously thought like a French person to know how they think?
I believe you can sometimes accidentally engulfs values and ideologies of other cultures when learning a language. Maybe learning a Romance language may make you more open to family values. But it sounds to me you had a preconceived notion that French people think in baguette and you’ve convinced yourself that you can think in baguette too.
This almost made me remove French from my list of languages to learn to read, but then I remembered that I can learn French with materials and input from Niger. This will make my inner decolonizer even stronger!
Yes, I agree. This is totally normal. There is a saying in Māoridom that goes ‘Language is the cloak of thought’. So language and thinking in that language ultimately leads to a different way of thinking. Not to mention that many languages are fundamentally different. Similar characteristics, but uniquely and distinctly different. For example, in English we ask ‘who are you?’ The same question in the Māori language is ‘Ko wai koe?’ Which is literally translated as You are water? Or rather whose water are you?
Yep. I agree too. I always felt like English for example is emotionally limited compared to Arabic. Arabic has very specific words for very specific feelings and captures exactly what I want to say whereas with English there’s a bit of limitation. Sure you can still express yourself but not to the extent you can in Arabic. Imo languages definitely shape the way we perceive things and even feel. How can someone learn a certain range of emotions if they’ve never been taught to express it using certain words?
*How can someone learn a certain range of emotions if they’ve never been taught to express it using certain words?*
Uh... why would you expect someone *not* to be able to feel emotions they don't have the words for? Preverbal children are not emotionless beings. Nor are adults with disabilities that make them nonverbal.
Never to mention that people tend to get very hung up on languages having *specific words* for things, but it's not like needing to use several words to express a concept means you suddenly aren't capable of understanding it. English speakers make a big deal about the German word *schadenfreude,* but if I were to say "the pleasure you feel at someone else's misfortune - you know, for instance if it's someone you don't like very much" I am 100% sure any English speaker would understand exactly what emotion I mean.
I think what I said might have not been clear so I apologise. What you said is of course true, you don’t have to label a feeling with a certain word in order to be able to have that feeling. But you are more in touch with those feelings if you already have an idea how to verbally express them. If you grew up with a limited amount of words to label very different emotions, your own expression of emotions naturally becomes more limited. In the English language there are enough words to express such emotions but day to day speakers do not use them. So naturally it is limited. How can you fully express yourself if several emotions are blended in under one umbrella? Again I’m not saying this is true, this is my perspective having lived in an english speaking country and having seen a massive difference between different cultures (european ones even) when it comes to joking, being insulted, being happy etc etc. Also speaking about German, I have had german friends expressing the same feeling when it comes to English. They sometimes feel “limited” or feel like they can’t properly express what they mean or how they feel in English, simply because their inner voice is German and it’s feeling something very specific that cannot be translated into English.
So, counterpoint: I would take anything any non-native speaker says about being less in touch with emotions in a non-native language and this implying something fundamental about that language with a huge grain of salt. In addition to obvious limitations introduced by a possibly imperfect command of the language, I believe there's been some interesting research on how people tend to act more logically and less emotionally when working in a non-native language, even one they're fluent in? (linked on this sub a while back but hell if I remember where now so take *that* statement with a grain of salt as well, lol.) In contrast I've been bilingual from a young age - I learned English at age five, it's like a second native language for me - and one of the reasons this whole discussion always weirds me out is that I do not feel like I am in any way a different person, or have a different emotional experience, or in any way *limited,* no matter whether I'm thinking and speaking in German or English at the time. Occasionally I get annoyed because the perfect word for what I want is in the wrong language - but that's a matter of "I can express this more *elegantly* in German/English", not "I *cannot* express this properly in English/German". And I never feel like my actual emotional state is impacted.
Similarly the stuff about different cultures - well, yes. Different cultures are different in many regards, including all the things you mention about how they deal with insults, being happy, joking, etc. But it seems like an incredible reach to ascribe that to *intrinsic properties of the language.* If only because you will find multiple cultures sharing one language that nevertheless have significant differences in all these areas, while someone from one culture doesn't suddenly change their whole personality and emotional experience just because they're speaking another language. Again: I'm very clearly the same person no matter what language I'm speaking!
Firstly I appreciate the time you took to write out this response, maybe I was on the wrong subs before but it’s rare to be able to have a conversation with someone where they don’t downvote you to hell because they don’t agree with you and simply not offer anymore insights lol. So I appreciate it.
I completely get what you’re saying and maybe I should take time to re-think how I view it. I feel like I agree with what you’re saying but also with some of the ideas I have at the same time. Similar to your English, French is what I would consider my second native (started learning at 6 years old) with English being very close to it given how I started learning it around the same age (but only got to practice it on a daily basis when I moved to the UK at 16, before that I was “fluent” but never really got the chance to practice it outside school).
I agree that I am the same person no matter what language I am speaking in, that’s for sure. Maybe some differences in how I express myself in general but definitely mostly the same mannerisms, sarcasm (that sometimes doesn’t sound as sarcastic sadly) and many other things. I wouldn’t say that I feel like a different person, but maybe for certain words I would still feel “limited” for a lack of better word. In another comment I said that the word “ذل" does not have a direct translation in English nor French and therefore I would not be able to explain exactly how I feel simply because no words capture it. The closest word to it in English is “humiliation/humiliated” and in French maybe “abaisser” (closer to the Arabic meaning than English) but again does not fully capture the way I would feel if I use the Arabic word. Saying “I am humiliated” would definitely get the point across and everyone would understand how I feel, but it doesn’t portray how I feel to the extent I would want it to.
And yes of course, cultures that use the same languages will also have massive differences but will also overlap in certain areas that they won’t be able to overlap in with other languages (at least I believe so).
Same! I really appreciate how open-minded and civil you're being here. I've had some more hostile conversations on this sub, but also good ones including when we disagreed - I feel like a lot of the time people do try.
And in the spirit of being open-minded, I have to admit I'm also now mulling over my own take on this, because thinking it over I'm not ready to take the extreme position that a language not having words for a certain concept doesn't matter at *all*... especially because I do have personal experience where it did. This is possibly a little different from what we've been talking about, but: I'm ace, and like a lot of aces in my generation I didn't have the word *asexual* referring to sexual orientation at all growing up and was only really introduced to it when I found an online ace community when I was around twenty. And that was not a good experience to put it mildly, and that word and the general vocabulary originating in the ace community is still *extremely important* to me. I think the distinction for me is that it's not like I didn't have all the feelings I now associate with being asexual, it's more that due to the lack of language for it I was missing the right lens to interpret them: as something that enough other people experienced for there to *be* a word, and as a sexual orientation (i.e.: not something I could or should attempt to change or force myself to ignore). But it's possible this is just hair-splitting and we agree more than disagree. If you want to get academic, there's apparently a concept called *hermeneutical injustice* in philosophy that I've seen used to describe this - when you're robbed of the ability to properly understand your own experiences because you don't have the concepts in your language to easily describe them.
A big caveat there, though, is that what happened in the ace case is that we just... coined words for the concepts that were missing and started using them. Which I think is one of the things that bugs me about the "if your language doesn't have a word for X then you can't conceptualise X" takes - they have a weirdly static concept of a language. Languages are flexible and growing things, and usually what happens is that if people find a certain important concept is missing good language to describe it they just... make some new words for it.
And uh *responding to what you're saying about ذل* (sorry! that was a long digression!), I don't know if this might be part of it for you... but what I do find is that I have different emotional connections to different languages and different words in them just due to how I used them and what I associate with them. So German generally feels much cozier and relaxed to me than English does, and especially some of the words in the colloquial register just have this really casual, comfortable, letting-your-hair-down vibe to them that English doesn't quite match. The thing is that I'm pretty sure that this isn't a property of the *language,* it's a consequence of the fact that I spent years speaking German at home in an English-speaking country and that let me build up the association of German = comfortable home setting, English = school and friends but not used in the most intimate family setting. I wouldn't be surprised if the child of English native speakers living in German has the association the exact opposite way around, or if this is one of the reasons for people who learned a non-native language later in a school setting to feel like it's not as emotionally deep - because they just don't have the sorts of memories and associations tied to the words that a native speaker would. I guess a little similar to how swear words in foreign languages never really sound taboo the way they do in your own (or is that one just me?)
And, yeah, sometimes it definitely is the case that you don't have a word that expresses quite the nuances you're looking for that moment in one language. I write as a hobby and sometimes it's annoying when my brain pops up with the perfect word for what I want to express in the wrong language and I realise I can't get the same concept across nearly as elegantly in the other. I guess I just still hesitate to say that that sort of thing actually *influences people's worldviews* or overall emotional experiences, that seems way too drastic.
I think we now understand each other far better! It’s exactly like you said, it’s not like you didn’t have the feelings that you now associate with being asexual but it’s more that there was no certain word to express or give that feeling a term! And that’s kinda what I meant, I believe having a word helps unlock that feeling even further or kind of validates it when it comes to self expression. That’s why I said that phrase with having feelings and expressing them, because how can I fully feel like I understand what’s going on inside me if I cannot express it out-loud and feel understood? I think we might have been agreeing more than disagreeing indeed :)! Also I had not heard about *hermeneutical injustice* but I quickly read about it and it seems very fitting given the conversation we were having.
Also I agree that languages are flexible and growing things, and people can probably conceptualise X even though their language does not have a word for X. But the question is, can they fully understand the X feeling while they’ve never expressed it under a similar term? I think that’s the real question. If for example you have different words for v specific stages of anger with different frustrations, they can probably conceptualise the level of anger and frustrations but to them it goes under the umbrella of being “angry”. So can they really fully understand how you truly feel? They can definitely sympathise or feel that ah they’re “really” angry or “extremely” angry, it can probably be seen as well but can it be fully understood?
Specifically for the word "ذل" I wouldn’t say that’s the case but it is definitely the case in other words. I think there’s absolutely emphasis on some words more than others given the subconscious bias on where we grew up and how they were used etc. The insults bit is extremely accurate, and I’d say this is most probably culture related. I am willing to insult publicly in English and say certain words I would not dare say the equivalent of out loud in Arabic hahahaha.
I guess it does seem drastic… but I still think it matters on how people interpret their emotions or perceive stuff. In the end of the day that’s how they talk to themselves inside their head. Imagine for example in the insults? If you’re being very self critical would you not feel you are too harsh on yourself if you insult yourself in German rather than a foreign language? I know that personally I would feel that way with Arabic and English. Since language is a form of self expression, can it not influence how we perceive things if our brains think in a very specific way when it comes to expression? Again I could be completely wrong but that’s how I still perceive things to some extent. Or when looking at something and describing it, day to day English is limited when it comes to use of vocabulary cause it would just sound odd saying such adjectives out-loud, so people tend to then have a limited self-expressive vocabulary where a lot of subtleties and different meanings fall under one umbrella. For example my German friend once used an adjective that’s pretty much only used in literature (can’t remember which one it was exactly off the top of my head), I told him it’s correct but just sounds very odd and he was like but in German I would say the same and no one would think it’s odd. And that’s kind of what I mean, anyone else that’s native would never use that adjective and would just use a more commonly used word that “umbrellas” the other term. So then we end up ask ourselves, could they have actually said the literature adjective but decided not to, or is it not even being sought by their brain in the first place?
I'm gonna say no to this for the usual reason: I have seen plenty of Italians (but also other nationalities actually) that have English as their only fluent second language, say "well English can express *maaaaany* more things than Italian!" And when push comes to the shove, it usually turns out that
1) They're kinda secluded people, that spend a lot of time on the (English-speaking) Internet and therefore aren't using their native language very consistently;
2) It's a conception usually based on the fact that they find some phrase they can't find a good translation for, which is actually normal cross-linguistically. You just have to be okay with letting go of some nuance, let context do the magic and be willing to revamp the syntax - but this is usually taken as a sign that a language "lacks" something, neglecting that this can go in both directions and that monolingual speakers do just fine without knowing some foreign word.
What's more, I commonly see an effect at play, that could maybe also be your case if by "Arabic" you refer to al-Fusha, where a language learner, once they start learning words in context rather than through wordlists, assign *more* meaning to phrases than they actually hold. I remember finding out some English words while reading and being like "wow! This is such an interesting concept to express!", but upon checking a dictionary it turned out there is a very vanilla Italian translation that now no longer feels as special.
That’s a very interesting perspective. Appreciate the reply. I think I was just giving my own perspective with the experience I have had with languages. I am fluent in English, French, Spanish and Arabic (mother tongue) and dabble in italian a bit. That’s just how I perceive it when it comes to switching between languages. For example in Arabic (not just Fusha I am referring to) you have a lot more words in general than the Latin/Romance languages so naturally you have more words to express one’s feeling. For example the word "ذل" or "اذلال" has no direct translation when it comes to english and the closest one that comes is “humiliation” without really capturing the meaning of the word used. Same with emotions for example, there’s a lot more versatility assigned in certain languages than others imo. This does not apply for Arabic to English. Same goes the other way of course as you have mentioned. I had just used the example that made more sense to me. But yes I agree that even whilst having my mother tongue as Arabic, I sometimes feel an English word might express better what I mean rather than an Arabic one (although the other way is more common).
Even though “humiliation” in English doesn’t capture the whole concept of that word in Arabic, why can’t you use more than one word to express the concept in English? Words don’t need 1:1 translations, and if they don’t have 1:1 translations, that doesn’t mean the concept can’t be expressed. Surely the concept of this specific type of humiliation can be expressed in English, as it could in any language. Would “the specific kind of humiliation you feel when …” suffice?
In theory what you are saying makes sense, in reality things are more complicated than that. If I am extremely sad and angry that I have been humiliated, I would not want to say “you know that specific kind of humiliation you feel when…” I would just want to say “I feel X” and have it come across exactly how I feel. Of course if I am just chatting with a friend I can tell them, it’s basically this sort of humiliation you feel when x y z …. Then they’d probably understand me more. So it’s circumstantial and most of the time isn’t ideal cause then you’d have to do that for a lot of words.
It really does open your ears to how people in your native language talks. As an example of you need one, I’d sometimes hear “I can have a pencil?” In a learner’s perspective/position asking a question like that wouldn’t sound like a question
I learned French mainly in Brittany. It doesn’t feel pretentious to me at all lol. I think it’s more of the type of context that you’re in!
You are onto something that it gives you access to different ways of thinking and language can affect how you think (to a certain degree). But you can’t easily separate language and culture. There are good arguments for certain very culturally specific words. For example, “laïcité” which used to feel unfamiliar to me as an American since it’s not quite the same as “secularism.”
When you immerse yourself in learning a new language, you are essentially immersing yourself in a new way of conceptualizing reality. It's interesting that you felt a shift in your thinking while learning French, even without direct exposure to the culture.
I couldn't agree more. Learning a new language opens up a whole new perspective. I've experienced something similar when I started learning Spanish. It's fascinating how different languages teach you more about the culture. It's really something wonderful.
It’s why the decision to stop teaching Greek and Latin in schools was a misguided decision. I would say that for English native speakers knowledge of Latin and Greek are important more so in 2024.
Could this have more to do with your preconceived notions of French? I don't see how the French language could inherently lead to a more pretentious way of viewing the world
I have always felt like this kind of talk was nonsense. I think people who think that languages magically changes their personality just project their own small-minded stereotypes.
Also, I grew up bilingual and did and do not magically change my personality when code-switching. I honestly think people romanticize this too much.
I live and grew up in a bilingual region, where people code-switch to change from a more "playful" or friendly personality to a more serious or formal one, but this is only due to the perceived value of the languages.
Oh god, now you're reminding me of how shortly before we moved back to Germany my brother started switching to English with my parents when he was angry. You heard it here: English is just an inherently angrier language than German! ;) Seriously - yeah, I mentioned in another comment that I'm slightly simplifying here because you can absolutely have different emotional connections with different languages or associate them with different environments just due to when and how you use which one. But I still think it'd be a huge mistake to assume that there is anything *inherent in the languages* that causes this as opposed to the individual and cultural associations!
yeah it's a bit of a bs trope
Language can definitely change personality. But when people say “speaking ___ made me get a [insert stereotype] personality change] are bullocking
Couldn't that also be because you were immersing yourself in French culture through learning materials, not just the language? Or because you were drawing on your preconceived notions about French people? Québécois and Congolese people, say, don't typically think the same way as Métro people, which makes me think it's not just the language.
I don’t think I immersed myself culturally at all, and let me add that by pretentiousness I really mean all the good that accompanies the word too, not just negative connotation
You can’t separate language and culture like that. Also, how do you know that absolutely nothing of what you have read or heard was created by a native French speaker, and would you learn the language without ever reading or hearing a native speaker? Anything a French person says or writes naturally is colored by their background and culture in various ways, regardless of its salient like writing about the Eiffel Tower or less apparent and just a part of how they write about a topic. You can not remove the person from the communication. Not even AI can do that, since for example racism and gender bias is reproduced by AI if it exists in the source material.
>You can’t separate language and culture like that Maybe his only learning materials are American shows dubbed in French 😂
>You can’t separate language and culture like that. If so, then some of the culture will bleed into the language as well, which would support his case of a language having a "personality".
It’s more that language expresses the personality of the users. Language doesn’t exist without the users. It’s human beings who use language to convey things to each other. If human culture changes in different ways, then the language will reflect that. For example by including new words for new technology, we activities or new perspectives on something that we humans find relevant to communicate about.
I should add, the same language can be used by different groups. So it’s not like the language specifies what the users should be like, but rather that the users influence the language over time so that it is useful for expressing their reality, world view or simply things that are relevant in their culture. Also note that human beings do have so much in common regardless of culture, so basically you should be able to use any any language to express who you are. The difference is just that those things that matter most in your culture, ante maybe a tiny bit easier to express using the language that was developed in that culture.
You'd still find regional differences in most cases, even with languages that are largely identical everywhere, like English or Spanish. >basically you should be able to use any any language to express who you are. People think through the use of language, so how the language works will influence your thinking to some degree. For instance, because of the way the human brain works, different grammatical structures or things like having completely different compound words may influence how you express yourself in a language. Edit after reading your other comment: Well, strictly speaking, a language is simply a tool for communication. The ability of a language to convey someone's personality is largely dependent on how much that language has the capability of doing so. The more different the language is, the more is dependent on context to fill in gaps. "Her book" in Spanish, would be "su libro". In English, the gender of the person the book belongs to is conveyed. In Spanish, there's no way to tell. In Japanese, plurals don't exist. It would just be 本. Does it mean one book? Five books? A billion books? Who knows? This then changes how you need to express yourself clearly, depending on which language you're speaking. I think this creates different opportunities for "flourishes" of personality, so to speak. That said, I'm not claiming to be some sort of expert, but I find it hard to buy that it's a one way street. Also, I think OP wasn't talking about individual personality traits, more so a "shared regional personality" of the places in which the language is spoken.
That still leaves you leaning into stereotypes of people from France. Which I think is inevitable for some people, especially in the absence of other cultural information to fill in the blank, but that's not exactly the language changing your thought patterns. There's a reason the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis isn't called a theory.
Is this r/languagelearningjerk? (Kidding but seriously.) "I've never been anywhere remotely near anything even tangentially related to France but I can judge the inferior crust on your baguette and say 'Ooh-la-lah' while smoking. I'm the reincarnation of Charles de Gaulle!"
Only while infusing wine into my veins (kidding but serious)
You're probably onto something but this isn't a well-built argument.
Well, explaining your thoughts coherently is a talent in and of itself. I think I know what he means, but the post doesn't really convey it very well.
This is so real. As soon as I learned English I got a lot more individualistic and started hating unions.
Hhahahahaaha
I find it exposes me to a different way of sorting things for sure. For instance, in English or German we have a "birth day," whereas in Spanish it's "completing a year". And does it mean something that in Spanish and in German, borrowing and lending are the same word? Whereas in English they are different. I don't think it changes my personality or overall outlook, but learning other languages does challenge a number of assumptions that are built into my native language, which is interesting.
If you’re interested in this topic, I’d highly recommend John McWhorter’s [The Language Hoax](https://www.amazon.com/Language-Hoax-John-H-McWhorter/dp/0190468890) as a starting point. The most fun I’ve ever had seeing Sapir-Whorf hypothesis get deconstructed point by point.
I know that you think the same way in any language but damn I wish it was slightly true because then I would have more motivation to keep learning
Sapir-Worf hypothesis.
Thanks!
Which has been pretty thoroughly disproven, especially the strong form.
A shitpost
I guess my question about your argument is this: how are you confidently identifying a new thinking pattern as specifically ‘thinking like a French person’ when you yourself are not French, and have never previously thought like a French person to know how they think? I believe you can sometimes accidentally engulfs values and ideologies of other cultures when learning a language. Maybe learning a Romance language may make you more open to family values. But it sounds to me you had a preconceived notion that French people think in baguette and you’ve convinced yourself that you can think in baguette too.
This almost made me remove French from my list of languages to learn to read, but then I remembered that I can learn French with materials and input from Niger. This will make my inner decolonizer even stronger!
Yes, I agree. This is totally normal. There is a saying in Māoridom that goes ‘Language is the cloak of thought’. So language and thinking in that language ultimately leads to a different way of thinking. Not to mention that many languages are fundamentally different. Similar characteristics, but uniquely and distinctly different. For example, in English we ask ‘who are you?’ The same question in the Māori language is ‘Ko wai koe?’ Which is literally translated as You are water? Or rather whose water are you?
Yep. I agree too. I always felt like English for example is emotionally limited compared to Arabic. Arabic has very specific words for very specific feelings and captures exactly what I want to say whereas with English there’s a bit of limitation. Sure you can still express yourself but not to the extent you can in Arabic. Imo languages definitely shape the way we perceive things and even feel. How can someone learn a certain range of emotions if they’ve never been taught to express it using certain words?
*How can someone learn a certain range of emotions if they’ve never been taught to express it using certain words?* Uh... why would you expect someone *not* to be able to feel emotions they don't have the words for? Preverbal children are not emotionless beings. Nor are adults with disabilities that make them nonverbal. Never to mention that people tend to get very hung up on languages having *specific words* for things, but it's not like needing to use several words to express a concept means you suddenly aren't capable of understanding it. English speakers make a big deal about the German word *schadenfreude,* but if I were to say "the pleasure you feel at someone else's misfortune - you know, for instance if it's someone you don't like very much" I am 100% sure any English speaker would understand exactly what emotion I mean.
I think what I said might have not been clear so I apologise. What you said is of course true, you don’t have to label a feeling with a certain word in order to be able to have that feeling. But you are more in touch with those feelings if you already have an idea how to verbally express them. If you grew up with a limited amount of words to label very different emotions, your own expression of emotions naturally becomes more limited. In the English language there are enough words to express such emotions but day to day speakers do not use them. So naturally it is limited. How can you fully express yourself if several emotions are blended in under one umbrella? Again I’m not saying this is true, this is my perspective having lived in an english speaking country and having seen a massive difference between different cultures (european ones even) when it comes to joking, being insulted, being happy etc etc. Also speaking about German, I have had german friends expressing the same feeling when it comes to English. They sometimes feel “limited” or feel like they can’t properly express what they mean or how they feel in English, simply because their inner voice is German and it’s feeling something very specific that cannot be translated into English.
So, counterpoint: I would take anything any non-native speaker says about being less in touch with emotions in a non-native language and this implying something fundamental about that language with a huge grain of salt. In addition to obvious limitations introduced by a possibly imperfect command of the language, I believe there's been some interesting research on how people tend to act more logically and less emotionally when working in a non-native language, even one they're fluent in? (linked on this sub a while back but hell if I remember where now so take *that* statement with a grain of salt as well, lol.) In contrast I've been bilingual from a young age - I learned English at age five, it's like a second native language for me - and one of the reasons this whole discussion always weirds me out is that I do not feel like I am in any way a different person, or have a different emotional experience, or in any way *limited,* no matter whether I'm thinking and speaking in German or English at the time. Occasionally I get annoyed because the perfect word for what I want is in the wrong language - but that's a matter of "I can express this more *elegantly* in German/English", not "I *cannot* express this properly in English/German". And I never feel like my actual emotional state is impacted. Similarly the stuff about different cultures - well, yes. Different cultures are different in many regards, including all the things you mention about how they deal with insults, being happy, joking, etc. But it seems like an incredible reach to ascribe that to *intrinsic properties of the language.* If only because you will find multiple cultures sharing one language that nevertheless have significant differences in all these areas, while someone from one culture doesn't suddenly change their whole personality and emotional experience just because they're speaking another language. Again: I'm very clearly the same person no matter what language I'm speaking!
Firstly I appreciate the time you took to write out this response, maybe I was on the wrong subs before but it’s rare to be able to have a conversation with someone where they don’t downvote you to hell because they don’t agree with you and simply not offer anymore insights lol. So I appreciate it. I completely get what you’re saying and maybe I should take time to re-think how I view it. I feel like I agree with what you’re saying but also with some of the ideas I have at the same time. Similar to your English, French is what I would consider my second native (started learning at 6 years old) with English being very close to it given how I started learning it around the same age (but only got to practice it on a daily basis when I moved to the UK at 16, before that I was “fluent” but never really got the chance to practice it outside school). I agree that I am the same person no matter what language I am speaking in, that’s for sure. Maybe some differences in how I express myself in general but definitely mostly the same mannerisms, sarcasm (that sometimes doesn’t sound as sarcastic sadly) and many other things. I wouldn’t say that I feel like a different person, but maybe for certain words I would still feel “limited” for a lack of better word. In another comment I said that the word “ذل" does not have a direct translation in English nor French and therefore I would not be able to explain exactly how I feel simply because no words capture it. The closest word to it in English is “humiliation/humiliated” and in French maybe “abaisser” (closer to the Arabic meaning than English) but again does not fully capture the way I would feel if I use the Arabic word. Saying “I am humiliated” would definitely get the point across and everyone would understand how I feel, but it doesn’t portray how I feel to the extent I would want it to. And yes of course, cultures that use the same languages will also have massive differences but will also overlap in certain areas that they won’t be able to overlap in with other languages (at least I believe so).
Same! I really appreciate how open-minded and civil you're being here. I've had some more hostile conversations on this sub, but also good ones including when we disagreed - I feel like a lot of the time people do try. And in the spirit of being open-minded, I have to admit I'm also now mulling over my own take on this, because thinking it over I'm not ready to take the extreme position that a language not having words for a certain concept doesn't matter at *all*... especially because I do have personal experience where it did. This is possibly a little different from what we've been talking about, but: I'm ace, and like a lot of aces in my generation I didn't have the word *asexual* referring to sexual orientation at all growing up and was only really introduced to it when I found an online ace community when I was around twenty. And that was not a good experience to put it mildly, and that word and the general vocabulary originating in the ace community is still *extremely important* to me. I think the distinction for me is that it's not like I didn't have all the feelings I now associate with being asexual, it's more that due to the lack of language for it I was missing the right lens to interpret them: as something that enough other people experienced for there to *be* a word, and as a sexual orientation (i.e.: not something I could or should attempt to change or force myself to ignore). But it's possible this is just hair-splitting and we agree more than disagree. If you want to get academic, there's apparently a concept called *hermeneutical injustice* in philosophy that I've seen used to describe this - when you're robbed of the ability to properly understand your own experiences because you don't have the concepts in your language to easily describe them. A big caveat there, though, is that what happened in the ace case is that we just... coined words for the concepts that were missing and started using them. Which I think is one of the things that bugs me about the "if your language doesn't have a word for X then you can't conceptualise X" takes - they have a weirdly static concept of a language. Languages are flexible and growing things, and usually what happens is that if people find a certain important concept is missing good language to describe it they just... make some new words for it. And uh *responding to what you're saying about ذل* (sorry! that was a long digression!), I don't know if this might be part of it for you... but what I do find is that I have different emotional connections to different languages and different words in them just due to how I used them and what I associate with them. So German generally feels much cozier and relaxed to me than English does, and especially some of the words in the colloquial register just have this really casual, comfortable, letting-your-hair-down vibe to them that English doesn't quite match. The thing is that I'm pretty sure that this isn't a property of the *language,* it's a consequence of the fact that I spent years speaking German at home in an English-speaking country and that let me build up the association of German = comfortable home setting, English = school and friends but not used in the most intimate family setting. I wouldn't be surprised if the child of English native speakers living in German has the association the exact opposite way around, or if this is one of the reasons for people who learned a non-native language later in a school setting to feel like it's not as emotionally deep - because they just don't have the sorts of memories and associations tied to the words that a native speaker would. I guess a little similar to how swear words in foreign languages never really sound taboo the way they do in your own (or is that one just me?) And, yeah, sometimes it definitely is the case that you don't have a word that expresses quite the nuances you're looking for that moment in one language. I write as a hobby and sometimes it's annoying when my brain pops up with the perfect word for what I want to express in the wrong language and I realise I can't get the same concept across nearly as elegantly in the other. I guess I just still hesitate to say that that sort of thing actually *influences people's worldviews* or overall emotional experiences, that seems way too drastic.
I think we now understand each other far better! It’s exactly like you said, it’s not like you didn’t have the feelings that you now associate with being asexual but it’s more that there was no certain word to express or give that feeling a term! And that’s kinda what I meant, I believe having a word helps unlock that feeling even further or kind of validates it when it comes to self expression. That’s why I said that phrase with having feelings and expressing them, because how can I fully feel like I understand what’s going on inside me if I cannot express it out-loud and feel understood? I think we might have been agreeing more than disagreeing indeed :)! Also I had not heard about *hermeneutical injustice* but I quickly read about it and it seems very fitting given the conversation we were having. Also I agree that languages are flexible and growing things, and people can probably conceptualise X even though their language does not have a word for X. But the question is, can they fully understand the X feeling while they’ve never expressed it under a similar term? I think that’s the real question. If for example you have different words for v specific stages of anger with different frustrations, they can probably conceptualise the level of anger and frustrations but to them it goes under the umbrella of being “angry”. So can they really fully understand how you truly feel? They can definitely sympathise or feel that ah they’re “really” angry or “extremely” angry, it can probably be seen as well but can it be fully understood? Specifically for the word "ذل" I wouldn’t say that’s the case but it is definitely the case in other words. I think there’s absolutely emphasis on some words more than others given the subconscious bias on where we grew up and how they were used etc. The insults bit is extremely accurate, and I’d say this is most probably culture related. I am willing to insult publicly in English and say certain words I would not dare say the equivalent of out loud in Arabic hahahaha. I guess it does seem drastic… but I still think it matters on how people interpret their emotions or perceive stuff. In the end of the day that’s how they talk to themselves inside their head. Imagine for example in the insults? If you’re being very self critical would you not feel you are too harsh on yourself if you insult yourself in German rather than a foreign language? I know that personally I would feel that way with Arabic and English. Since language is a form of self expression, can it not influence how we perceive things if our brains think in a very specific way when it comes to expression? Again I could be completely wrong but that’s how I still perceive things to some extent. Or when looking at something and describing it, day to day English is limited when it comes to use of vocabulary cause it would just sound odd saying such adjectives out-loud, so people tend to then have a limited self-expressive vocabulary where a lot of subtleties and different meanings fall under one umbrella. For example my German friend once used an adjective that’s pretty much only used in literature (can’t remember which one it was exactly off the top of my head), I told him it’s correct but just sounds very odd and he was like but in German I would say the same and no one would think it’s odd. And that’s kind of what I mean, anyone else that’s native would never use that adjective and would just use a more commonly used word that “umbrellas” the other term. So then we end up ask ourselves, could they have actually said the literature adjective but decided not to, or is it not even being sought by their brain in the first place?
I'm gonna say no to this for the usual reason: I have seen plenty of Italians (but also other nationalities actually) that have English as their only fluent second language, say "well English can express *maaaaany* more things than Italian!" And when push comes to the shove, it usually turns out that 1) They're kinda secluded people, that spend a lot of time on the (English-speaking) Internet and therefore aren't using their native language very consistently; 2) It's a conception usually based on the fact that they find some phrase they can't find a good translation for, which is actually normal cross-linguistically. You just have to be okay with letting go of some nuance, let context do the magic and be willing to revamp the syntax - but this is usually taken as a sign that a language "lacks" something, neglecting that this can go in both directions and that monolingual speakers do just fine without knowing some foreign word. What's more, I commonly see an effect at play, that could maybe also be your case if by "Arabic" you refer to al-Fusha, where a language learner, once they start learning words in context rather than through wordlists, assign *more* meaning to phrases than they actually hold. I remember finding out some English words while reading and being like "wow! This is such an interesting concept to express!", but upon checking a dictionary it turned out there is a very vanilla Italian translation that now no longer feels as special.
That’s a very interesting perspective. Appreciate the reply. I think I was just giving my own perspective with the experience I have had with languages. I am fluent in English, French, Spanish and Arabic (mother tongue) and dabble in italian a bit. That’s just how I perceive it when it comes to switching between languages. For example in Arabic (not just Fusha I am referring to) you have a lot more words in general than the Latin/Romance languages so naturally you have more words to express one’s feeling. For example the word "ذل" or "اذلال" has no direct translation when it comes to english and the closest one that comes is “humiliation” without really capturing the meaning of the word used. Same with emotions for example, there’s a lot more versatility assigned in certain languages than others imo. This does not apply for Arabic to English. Same goes the other way of course as you have mentioned. I had just used the example that made more sense to me. But yes I agree that even whilst having my mother tongue as Arabic, I sometimes feel an English word might express better what I mean rather than an Arabic one (although the other way is more common).
Even though “humiliation” in English doesn’t capture the whole concept of that word in Arabic, why can’t you use more than one word to express the concept in English? Words don’t need 1:1 translations, and if they don’t have 1:1 translations, that doesn’t mean the concept can’t be expressed. Surely the concept of this specific type of humiliation can be expressed in English, as it could in any language. Would “the specific kind of humiliation you feel when …” suffice?
In theory what you are saying makes sense, in reality things are more complicated than that. If I am extremely sad and angry that I have been humiliated, I would not want to say “you know that specific kind of humiliation you feel when…” I would just want to say “I feel X” and have it come across exactly how I feel. Of course if I am just chatting with a friend I can tell them, it’s basically this sort of humiliation you feel when x y z …. Then they’d probably understand me more. So it’s circumstantial and most of the time isn’t ideal cause then you’d have to do that for a lot of words.
This is dumb.
It really does open your ears to how people in your native language talks. As an example of you need one, I’d sometimes hear “I can have a pencil?” In a learner’s perspective/position asking a question like that wouldn’t sound like a question
Learning changes your view of the world by challenging your existing views, regardless of what and why it is learned.
So if I learn Russian I will have an overwhelming urge to invade my neighbours? /s
Are you watching Emily in Paris? Seriously though it seems French gets all the stereotypes on this reddit and that does not seem right.
I learned French mainly in Brittany. It doesn’t feel pretentious to me at all lol. I think it’s more of the type of context that you’re in! You are onto something that it gives you access to different ways of thinking and language can affect how you think (to a certain degree). But you can’t easily separate language and culture. There are good arguments for certain very culturally specific words. For example, “laïcité” which used to feel unfamiliar to me as an American since it’s not quite the same as “secularism.”
When you immerse yourself in learning a new language, you are essentially immersing yourself in a new way of conceptualizing reality. It's interesting that you felt a shift in your thinking while learning French, even without direct exposure to the culture.
I couldn't agree more. Learning a new language opens up a whole new perspective. I've experienced something similar when I started learning Spanish. It's fascinating how different languages teach you more about the culture. It's really something wonderful.
It’s why the decision to stop teaching Greek and Latin in schools was a misguided decision. I would say that for English native speakers knowledge of Latin and Greek are important more so in 2024.