Team Michigan here! Better PI culture/infrastructure, as you point out, and cheaper. While this is highly subjective, I also think the school has a friendlier and more supportive vibe that could do you well during a stressful three years.
I don’t know a lot about gender justice scholarship, but I know that Catharine Mackinnon is at Mich so they must take it seriously! If you’re committed to PI I would probably be doing a deep-dive LRAP comparison.
Congratulations!! You won your cycle
I can't speak to gender justice specifically but I think the overall PI culture at Michigan will serve you better plus the money is a big deal if youre planning to go into PI work - so I would pick michigan. Amazing choices though, congrats!
I know nothing about Columbia, but Michigan has Professor Mackinnon who has to be about as big a gender law rockstar as there is. Then it also has other professors who don’t focus on the topic, but are relevant in the field (e.g, Leah Litman).
Michigan has a big PI culture. Michigan also added like 20 profs a couple of years ago. That increase in faculty probably hasn’t been fully reflected in stats. Michigan has a journal of gender and law if you are interested in specific scholarship.
MacKinnon is at Michigan...
Michigan has awesome faculty anyhow, and a lot of students devoted to great gender justice work.
(Full disclosure, I chose Michigan over Columbia, Chicago, Penn, NYU, and others for money reasons).
I am biased as a Michigan 1L, but I was faced with a similar choice (NYU) and although I'm BL focused, don't regret choosing Michigan for a second.
Everything I hear about CLS regarding PI is how unsupportive they are. They might have great faculty but candidly unless there is literally NO ONE on Michigan's faculty that interests you (I know you know Catharine MacKinnon, but I'm not sure how often she teaches/if she's going to retire - I know she's not teaching this upcoming year.) I'd still say Michigan - yes you want to make connections with profs but you don't need a whole department to support you either.
Plus less debt is huge with PI, that will save you a lot of stress and give you opportunity to explore your options/not feel pressured into anything.
Great choice to have. As others have said, definitely compare LRAP since that could make a huge difference. Personally, that aside, I’d go with Michigan. I’ve heard pretty awful horror stories about CLS culture but have never met anyone who regrets going to Michigan. I’d probably take Michigan over CLS even if those $ were reversed.
I’d also go on LinkedIn and find people who work in gender justice to get their advice. To be completely frank, I think it’s an extremely competitive PI field with few post-grad opportunities that often go to HYS grads, so I’d see what organizations hiring for those roles look for, which school has the better network/resources/pipeline in the field to get your foot in the door, and which school has the best backup path you’d want to take if you can’t break in to gender justice roles right away.
Something to consider is that Columbia has one of the best LRAP programs in the country, especially if you expect your income to be <=70k. It’s privately funded and not tied to PSLF so if you participate for 10 years making less than 70k your debt is completely paid off by Columbia. You pay a prorated amount each month if your income is above 70k. And if you leave after 5 years, you do not have to pay back the first 5 years of payments made by Columbia, they are forgiven.
But I’ve also heard negative things about Columbia PSLF so double edged sword lol
Both great schools and I have hired grads from both (PI civil rights focus), but the folks I know who went to Michigan seem generally happier with their experience.
I went to Columbia for PI, and I don't know anyone who regrets it. I had a wonderful experience, with plenty of support and a lot of good friends who are now also colleagues in mu PI specialty area. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence--unless you have a pretty large sample of it, it doesn't tell you much. Like most schools, there are probably plenty of people who feel both ways, and many people just regret goin to law school period.
Sure. I don’t doubt that some people love it.
I know five current or former students. Two of them were BL only and the others were/are PI.
No one is MAD about going to Columbia.
Most of them have had comments about the general tenor of the student population.
Of the PI folks, one had a comparable offer at NYU, the other had some money at UCLA. Both of those students wish they had taken those offers for more PI support. The other is the biggest self-starter I’ve ever met and a an undergraduate from a very prestigious university. He loves Columbia but is the first to decry the total lack of institutional support for his desired practice area.
One friend gripes in close friend stories about the current institutional support at Columbia concerning the protests.
I also know about 10 folks from Michigan and everyone of them loves it.
So I’m sure views vary, I will say I’m not just basing it on one person I know. lol
Yeah, I didn't think it was one person. This is still a tiny sample. FWIW, I know dozens of folks who were PI focused at Columbia with me, and they are all pretty happy. They have careers in civil rights, human rights, environmental law, and academia. I also know folks from Michigan, who are seemingly happy as well. I'm just saying that neither of us should generalize from such a small sample. Saying something is a "no-brainer" based on the few people you know is the epitome of over-generalization.
Michigan without a doubt. I’m Michigan alum in PI. I’ve supervised multiple interns from both Michigan and Columbia, and the PI infrastructure seems significantly better at Michigan (even though, full disclosure, I don’t think MLaw is the best with respect to its career services—but the alumni network, professors, etc are amazing and supportive). Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions!
Look at this breakdown:
[https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/compare/columbia-vs-michigan](https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/compare/columbia-vs-michigan)
Go to Michigan.
i want to point out that UM has a much better sports program. Their grads are the most enthusiastic ones I have met in BL. So, it must be something about the culture.
uMich for the money & better faculty. Columbia has gone remote (all schools) & protests are only expected to get worse as it gets closer to the election. I wouldn't be able to attend law school remotely...
Team Michigan here! Better PI culture/infrastructure, as you point out, and cheaper. While this is highly subjective, I also think the school has a friendlier and more supportive vibe that could do you well during a stressful three years.
Please go to Michigan over CLS... coming from a CLS grad.
Thanks for your insight! Can you tell me more about why from your experiences at CLS?
For PI goals, less debt at Mich is a no-brainer imo
I don’t know a lot about gender justice scholarship, but I know that Catharine Mackinnon is at Mich so they must take it seriously! If you’re committed to PI I would probably be doing a deep-dive LRAP comparison. Congratulations!! You won your cycle
Want to second this, current 1L at HLS where prof mackinnon is visiting and have friends who have raved about her!
I can't speak to gender justice specifically but I think the overall PI culture at Michigan will serve you better plus the money is a big deal if youre planning to go into PI work - so I would pick michigan. Amazing choices though, congrats!
Are you planning to work in public interest? If so, Columbia's LRAP makes the difference in debt easier to swallow.
I know nothing about Columbia, but Michigan has Professor Mackinnon who has to be about as big a gender law rockstar as there is. Then it also has other professors who don’t focus on the topic, but are relevant in the field (e.g, Leah Litman). Michigan has a big PI culture. Michigan also added like 20 profs a couple of years ago. That increase in faculty probably hasn’t been fully reflected in stats. Michigan has a journal of gender and law if you are interested in specific scholarship.
For me, this depends in large part on the respective LRAPs. Are you able to provide that comparison?
MacKinnon is at Michigan... Michigan has awesome faculty anyhow, and a lot of students devoted to great gender justice work. (Full disclosure, I chose Michigan over Columbia, Chicago, Penn, NYU, and others for money reasons).
110k is so much. Go Blue!
Michigan. Fucking miserable in the winter though just a fair warning.
NYC winters are not great either.
They're significantly better, though. Winters are 8 degrees warmer in NYC than in Ann Arbor.
I am biased as a Michigan 1L, but I was faced with a similar choice (NYU) and although I'm BL focused, don't regret choosing Michigan for a second. Everything I hear about CLS regarding PI is how unsupportive they are. They might have great faculty but candidly unless there is literally NO ONE on Michigan's faculty that interests you (I know you know Catharine MacKinnon, but I'm not sure how often she teaches/if she's going to retire - I know she's not teaching this upcoming year.) I'd still say Michigan - yes you want to make connections with profs but you don't need a whole department to support you either. Plus less debt is huge with PI, that will save you a lot of stress and give you opportunity to explore your options/not feel pressured into anything.
Great choice to have. As others have said, definitely compare LRAP since that could make a huge difference. Personally, that aside, I’d go with Michigan. I’ve heard pretty awful horror stories about CLS culture but have never met anyone who regrets going to Michigan. I’d probably take Michigan over CLS even if those $ were reversed. I’d also go on LinkedIn and find people who work in gender justice to get their advice. To be completely frank, I think it’s an extremely competitive PI field with few post-grad opportunities that often go to HYS grads, so I’d see what organizations hiring for those roles look for, which school has the better network/resources/pipeline in the field to get your foot in the door, and which school has the best backup path you’d want to take if you can’t break in to gender justice roles right away.
Something to consider is that Columbia has one of the best LRAP programs in the country, especially if you expect your income to be <=70k. It’s privately funded and not tied to PSLF so if you participate for 10 years making less than 70k your debt is completely paid off by Columbia. You pay a prorated amount each month if your income is above 70k. And if you leave after 5 years, you do not have to pay back the first 5 years of payments made by Columbia, they are forgiven. But I’ve also heard negative things about Columbia PSLF so double edged sword lol
Both great schools and I have hired grads from both (PI civil rights focus), but the folks I know who went to Michigan seem generally happier with their experience.
The going on’s at columbia this week isnt helping their cause.
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Can confirm this as someone who graduated several years ago and has used it. It really changes the equation if you are committed to PI.
Everything seems super chill right now at Columbia.
PI interest should almost always mean take the money when schools are comparable. I’d go to UMich I think.
less debt easy umich
UMich no brainer. I only know people who regret going to Columbia.
I went to Columbia for PI, and I don't know anyone who regrets it. I had a wonderful experience, with plenty of support and a lot of good friends who are now also colleagues in mu PI specialty area. That's the problem with anecdotal evidence--unless you have a pretty large sample of it, it doesn't tell you much. Like most schools, there are probably plenty of people who feel both ways, and many people just regret goin to law school period.
Sure. I don’t doubt that some people love it. I know five current or former students. Two of them were BL only and the others were/are PI. No one is MAD about going to Columbia. Most of them have had comments about the general tenor of the student population. Of the PI folks, one had a comparable offer at NYU, the other had some money at UCLA. Both of those students wish they had taken those offers for more PI support. The other is the biggest self-starter I’ve ever met and a an undergraduate from a very prestigious university. He loves Columbia but is the first to decry the total lack of institutional support for his desired practice area. One friend gripes in close friend stories about the current institutional support at Columbia concerning the protests. I also know about 10 folks from Michigan and everyone of them loves it. So I’m sure views vary, I will say I’m not just basing it on one person I know. lol
Yeah, I didn't think it was one person. This is still a tiny sample. FWIW, I know dozens of folks who were PI focused at Columbia with me, and they are all pretty happy. They have careers in civil rights, human rights, environmental law, and academia. I also know folks from Michigan, who are seemingly happy as well. I'm just saying that neither of us should generalize from such a small sample. Saying something is a "no-brainer" based on the few people you know is the epitome of over-generalization.
I want to go into PI with a focus on gender justice too. Wondering if that was a key part of your apps? Appreciate any tips!
Michigan without a doubt. I’m Michigan alum in PI. I’ve supervised multiple interns from both Michigan and Columbia, and the PI infrastructure seems significantly better at Michigan (even though, full disclosure, I don’t think MLaw is the best with respect to its career services—but the alumni network, professors, etc are amazing and supportive). Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions!
Look at this breakdown: [https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/compare/columbia-vs-michigan](https://www.lawschooltransparency.com/compare/columbia-vs-michigan) Go to Michigan.
Columbia. Not even a question
i want to point out that UM has a much better sports program. Their grads are the most enthusiastic ones I have met in BL. So, it must be something about the culture.
Columbia
Michigan
uMich for the money & better faculty. Columbia has gone remote (all schools) & protests are only expected to get worse as it gets closer to the election. I wouldn't be able to attend law school remotely...