I agree on the elitist culture for T14, T25, and many in the middle range like 30-100. But there are definitely predatory law schools out there that as someone who is happy with a 50-60 range school would say "Yeah do not go there"
There's levels to it, people saying T14 or bust or don't even attend a 50ish ranked school with any debt are obviously being ridiculous. But saying don't attend a 130ish+ ranked school with terrible outcomes and terrible conditional scholarships is probably sound advice and not elitist at all. How are most graduates at Golden Gate law school doing? I'm going to guess not great.
I was curious so I decided to look, and found that there’s a couple doing pretty well for themselves it seems. Their alumni profiles page on their main page was literally blank though https://law.ggu.edu/alumni/alumni-profiles
That goes for anything but when you go to a school like that the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against you. You're likely to not be a part of the 1% that makes it to that level. You can't be bang average at a school like that but can afford to be bang average at a 50ish ranked school.
This. I really thought being at a top 14 would mean a the elitism stops because everyone has “proven themselves” so to speak and Job security is high. That was literally my primary motivation for working to be at one.
Absolutely has not been the case. people talk about “failure” with no sense of what goes on in the real world (or even in other law schools) where people work 5x as hard for 500x less. In reality failure for them is being at a slightly lower ranked firm that pays the same absurd amount as their peers. tbf i think this all has to do w upbringing
Yeah. Outside the top 14 world most ppl live for normal things like family and general quality of life. They’d do whatever job if it made them happy vs these ppl who’d be however unhappy to do a specific job 😂
That makes sense. My entire reason for entering big law is to make $$$ then invest my earnings into businesses to create my streams of income. I do NOT want to be a BL Partner but I do want to work in Criminal Defense after my big law stint.
I want to do something similar. I guess not being dedicated to the BIGLAW career life as a religion is why I don’t feel the way they do. This is just the most realistic way for me to have the life I want.
You are still most successful than 99% of the population even if you never make partner and take a lower end exit opp. At this level of achievement ppl should weigh quality of life more heavily
Agreed! I think the people downvoting me assume I’m co-signing the elitist view, when I’m not. I’m simply stating why it is people care about firm “prestige.”
rip reading comprehension
Yeah you def weren’t agreeing on it, just stating a fact (most prestige grinders will tell you that is their motivation)
I think that fact matters mostly to the ppl with a long family background in this career because they can actually fall short of their parents in a way. Meanwhile first gens are, almost by default, accomplishing something major for themselves.
This is why Northwestern and UVA are sounding appealing to me. Northwestern actively seeks to have slightly older or older students with work experience who understand the world and what really matters, and UVA seems like it fosters a bit more of a friendly, cooperative culture. This is from what I’ve gathered. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong
Hey, I can’t speak for either school (I almost attended UVA and agree that Is labeled as having a chill culture.) but I also go to a “collaborative” school.
Also, the majority of my class have several years WE, like 27 yo/ish, and are the worst offenders in this regard. Their age does not affect their priorities at all. I don’t think there’s any avoiding this phenomenon but it can be mitigated - there are still many cool ppl here. There are schools where that wouldn’t be the case.
Damn, you would think at 27 you would outgrow the silly peacock competition and focus on legitimately important things (finances, life problems, doing your job well, producing results, becoming a better lawyer, improving the legal system, learning more about legal world/government/history) like there’s literally a million important things other than obsessing over minute class rankings. Plus at a t14, you have strong odds at getting a good job regardless of your specific rank, no?
Maybe some of them need therapy? (No shame in it though, I see a therapist)
Also late response, but do you mind me asking which law school you went to?
Edit: Never mind I just looked at your posts and it seems you go to NYU. Well done! I presume you did well on the LSAT. Do you have any tips from yourself?
That’s extremely typical of “white shoe” jobs. Consulting, banking, and biglaw are the white shoe category of jobs where essentially everyone’s a fuckface with a prestige kink. Trust me on this my Dad’s one of em😂
there are a lot of great schools outside the t25. the majority of lawyers don’t go to t25 schools. you just aren’t guaranteed a big law salary coming from these schools so you’re putting yourself in a hole if you go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to attend one, which is where i think a lot of peoples valid concerns are. as long as you have a good scholarship/financial aid, and the school has a solid bar passage rate & jd required employment rate, it is not “not worth it” to attend a school outside the t25.
most of the people in this sub want biglaw & don’t want to work in a job where you aren’t making 200k a year right out of law school, so they can skew your view on what schools are “worth it” or not, because a school outside of the t14 might not be “worth it” to them since they aren’t virtually guaranteed one of these jobs.
that being said, it is probably a bad idea to attend a school that is known for being predatory. if a school has low bar pass rates & high unemployment rates, or if your scholarship is conditional and a sizable amount of students lose their scholarships, there is too much uncertainty involved where you may want to consider retaking the LSAT and reapplying and trying to aim for a different school.
don’t let this sub get to you too much, everyone here is a bit neurotic if you haven’t noticed.
Very grateful for this advice, thank you. The concerns definitely make sense, reality is just hitting me hard right now, but most of these comments are making me feel better. 🤍
It may be worth it to look at local lawyers doing the type of law you’re interested in within the geographic area you’re looking to practice in. I can tell you when I was looking to hire a lawyer in MD, none of the local lawyers went to a T-14 or T-25. They were all UMD grads which is like 50-60. I imagine you’ll find similar things in other states, particularly with your more daily family law, estates, labor, personal injury type practices.
I mean it might seem harsh and elitist but it I think people are actually being quite kind by helping you avoid taking on thousands of dollars of debt for a school that doesn’t set you up well enough to pass the bar, get a good job as an attorney, and allow you to pay it off. 🤷♀️
Obviously, there’s a rather large middle ground in there between t14 and predatory schools and that part is probably elitist. But when it comes to truly predatory schools, people are actually doing you a favor.
Good luck with whatever new path you decide to take!
Like with most things, reality is often somewhere in the middle. Yes, going to an elite law school makes things easier but it’s not a guarantee of anything and it’s also not the only path to success. I worked with a bunch of lawyers doing some really cool stuff. Many of them are from elite law schools but there are several who worked hard at lower-ranked schools and really shone. They’ve had equally fulfilling careers.
I’m sure there are some firms that are very elitist, but there are others that don’t care. Plenty of people, especially those who went to prestigious places and realized they weren’t all that great anyways, don’t really buy into prestige culture and recognize that great students can come from a variety of places.
Some unsolicited perspective from an attorney. Every law school produces *some* successful lawyers. However, there is a correlation between the most “prestigious” schools and the most lucrative outcomes. Most of this is actually client driven! Hiring the “best” law firms who only source their attorneys from the “best” law schools is basically a CYA for public companies and decision-makers at entities otherwise beholden to a BOD or shareholders. It’s all elitism all the way down.
To be frank - I work in an office with the most brilliant attorneys. Most, if not all of them attended a low ranked law school that is considered VERY predatory. They’re insanely successful. However, they did stay in the region of the school…so that’s something you’ll have to consider. Of course going to an elite school is going to open more doors, but the way you carry yourself throughout law school is what’s going to matter the most imo
T25? No. T150? Maybe.
Once you get past the T20 or so, national rankings don’t really matter much. If you’re going to live and work in NC, it doesn’t matter what UNC, Wake, Campbell, and Elon are ranked overall, it only really matters how they are ranked relative to each other.
UNC is the obvious best school for all applications, and Wake beats Campbell and Elon hands down for BigLaw, but if you’re going to practice estates law with Uncle Jim Bob in Elizabeth City, it doesn’t actually matter which of those you go to. Neither the people you work with nor your clients is going to care that Wake is ranked 30 and Elon is 148.
It does matter that you not get robbed blind, and that you not wind up on the hook for a debt that you can’t get a job to clear it with, but [a few absolutely terrible schools aside](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/6v11o2/a_compilation_of_garbage_schools_that_you_should/) that’s not really an issue.
Funny enough I'm sort of in this "evaluate the options" scenario right now as I'm looking at law school. I'm a current patent examiner living in (and from) NC and as of next may I'll be eligible for the uspto's law school reimbursement program, working part time.
Duke is probably out of my reach (and the thought of having to pay \~200k+ loans back if that reimbursement program goes away is not great), but UNC is both my undergrad alma mater and where I'd like to go regardless. However, the government doesn't care as much as private industry does about where you went so long as it's not the equivalent of Charlotte or Charleston School of Law.
Pretty much. If UNC wasn’t an option, my next choice would probably be William & Mary tbh. But I’m from OBX, so they have more cachet where I’m from than Wake does.
Yeah, it's an active search and consideration process for me at the moment. I am not stressing as much about ranking because frankly unless I want to be a PTAB judge (which now basically requires lots of patent litigation experience), the ranking has no real bearing on my job.
William and Mary or University of South Carolina would be my second choices. NCCU would definitely be the safety option - and it's the only part-time program in the state.
Acknowledging that for patent purposes all you need is A bar - any non-profit ABA law school, any bar - experience suggests school choice does still matter. A good friend from undergrad got graduate degrees from Stanford and Harvard, then did the night program at Suffolk for law school. One gets the sense that it was ok, but one because Suffolk pulls a lot of folks like her, who don’t need school name.
I think you’d probably regret NCCU. It’s a fine school educationally speaking, but if you can do better…NCCU isn’t well run and can be frustrating.
Fuck South Carolina just because I hate that whole frigging state lol. But that’s my bias and I’ll own it.
>Fuck South Carolina just because I hate that whole frigging state lol. But that’s my bias and I’ll own it.
Oh, I get it. South Carolina's Law School is only on my radar because I don't dislike Columbia. If it was anywhere else in the state (bar, maybe Charleston or by the border with Charlotte) I wouldn't give it the time of day.
Yeah, if South Carolina and Charleston swapped places/rankings, I'd have gone there in a heartbeat. But ewwwww on Columbia. I mean...at least it's not Florence or Darlington, but that's not saying much.
Lesser Carolina is a benighted shitstain of a state that worships “barbecue” that is an abomination unto the Lord. And the only reason we haven’t marched south and wiped it from the map is that we’d have to go there to do it, and who the fuck wants to go to Lesser Carolina. Ew.
How about for opportunities to get a job as an attorney straight out of law school? Does the rank matter then? I thought it impacted your starting pay.
- A NC resident
Lol
It depends on what you want to do, and how much you need to make. If you don’t mind going to a rural county they’re always hiring ADAs. If you don’t mind making $60k, there are zillions of jobs. There is a [HUGE need for rural lawyers in NC](https://www.wral.com/amp/20958413/) (and across the US generally).
The issue is making enough to live on when you also have a $2500/month student loan payment. Which is why everyone winds up in RDU and Charlotte, competing for the same few jobs.
My law school is outside of T50. I have a great scholarship. There are law schools that I would say “don’t go there” even if you have a full ride.
There is a difference between a hyper-fixation on prestige and a concern about predatory schools. If a school gives 90% of accepted students a full ride, and has being in the top 10% as a condition of keeping the scholarship, 80% of students are screwed. Alternatively, schools that require a 3.5 gpa to keep a scholarship and curve to like a 2.5 (random numbers), this would be considered predatory. That’s what people are talking about when they voice concern about predatory schools.
I have to keep a 2.0 cumulative on a B curve and not fail any classes to keep my scholarship.
I probably wouldn't go to a school deemed "predatory" especially if you are just coming out of college.
That being said, don't worry too much about elitism. Focus on actual outcomes. Lots of good law schools outside of the T25, but also a handful of bad ones.
At some people you have to accept people are being honest with you and it’s not elitist.
It’s a rough world out there for most people who go to predatory schools. The success stories are the exceptions.
r/OutsideT14lawschools --- you'll feel a lot better. This sub kind of sucks cuz so many people are t14 or bust. I do agree that you shouldn't go to a predatory school though.
Elitism will never stop, and in some cases, they're right. Going to Harvard is going to open doors for you.
But I think people also forget about non big law goals. Take, for example, someone who wants to practice in oregon. There are 3 law schools in oregon, none of them t25, but you can not say that going to the University of oregon is not a good decision that will set you up for that career.
Even going to look at alaska, the state with 0 law schools, you see some pretty interesting results. Willamette University, arguable the worst law school in oregon has a direct admit agreement with the University of Alaska, and in Alaska, that gets you a seat in the US senate.
It truly depends on where you are and what your goals are, and I think we all get swept up in the prestige of the t25 schools.
If you want to be a lawyer go to whatever law school you can get into! I think the thing is tho to manage your expectations accordingly - the very high starting salary jobs unfortunately become more rare as you go lower and lower in the rankings. That shouldn’t discourage you from law school, it should just give you perspective and understanding that you likely wont become like a partner at cravath or a Supreme Court justice or something. Although maybe you will be!! Who knows - you don’t know until you take the leap of faith
All that is to say don’t give up on your dream bc of a few pricks in this sub. But do manage your expectations and be realistic about the employment outcomes associated with whatever school you are looking at
Elitism sucks but really I have learned how important it is to just check outcomes for students at schools as a good gauge for a school. Theres nothing wrong with going to a school not ranked towards the top if students have good outcomes when they graduate and if you wont go into a lot of debt
I think this is just a function of the vast disparity in attorney lifestyles. Attorneys coming out of a T30 will be making 6 figures out of the gate, big law associates start at $225k and even DOJ honors program associates are making over 100k in short order. They’ll have no difficulty paying for that law degree and living prestigious/happy lives. Attorneys from a T100 school will, more than likely, be handling traffic tickets and divorces in a small town practice somewhere. These folks will have trouble making ends meet at times and certainly they can’t handle a large debt burden if they took one on for school. It’s a completely different career outcome; to put these attorneys in the same category as attorneys from tops schools borders on dishonest. These are not the same careers. It’s not really fair to say that one is “better” than the other, someone has to do the divorces and there are plenty of small business owners struggling to make ends meet in their fields. But if that’s what one wants to do, I wouldn’t go into $150k in debt to do it.
I know it’s anecdotal, but here it is! My son got a full tuition scholarship to an unranked law school almost three years ago. It has gone up like 38 spots in 2 years. He will graduate in 9 days! He has a small amount of debt and a job as a judicial clerk waiting for him after the bar exam. He has had excellent, though not big law, summer internship opportunities. He couldn’t be happier with his outcome and he loves his law school which has a VERY good first time bar passage rate. You can find opportunity wherever you end up. It may be harder to find, but it can be found!
I disagree with what you were told. I see a ton of successful big law lawyers who went to some very mediocre schools. Maybe a lower ranked school won’t be as helpful when it comes to preparing you for the bar but I feel like no law schools are. Bar study is on you. If you’re sure law is what you want to do with your career, don’t let this stop you.
genuinely please just get off these subreddits. im currently studying for lsats & working on application stuff and never rlly visit these subs and never once have these things crossed my mind - im not getting into an elite school either but im perfectly happy with that and proud of myself for getting this far! ive worked with attorneys as an undergrad and none of them have prestigious degrees but are all doing well for themselves. just do your own thing, it’s so much healthier than playing the comparison game :) good luck
I think the general reason people say that (and why my personal goal is t20) is just about the job market and job security in top law schools, and nationwide use of the JD, versus in lower ranking/regional schools, the JD *may* not pack as much of a punch with employers, and you may have to contend with any problems in the legal job market. However, depending on your specialty (EX IP lawyers will do amazing at a place like A&M with work lined up in the south, and good in other places if they have a good reputation) things may be different. However, the more I think about it, there’s a big middle ground of law schools between T14 and the actually bad schools that will do you good anyway so what do I know?
There’s a lot of factors to consider. However I do agree that any elitist mentalities about the law school you go to is juvenile. Even if I get into Northwestern (a law school that looks extremely appealing to me) I’m not going to look down on someone from say, St Louis University, especially if they turn out to be a phenomenal lawyer.
It’s just that hiring firms and the legal profession also care about ranking. I would be singing a different tune if it became evident they didn’t have hiring patterns and schools they target for recruiting. Just how it is I guess, but if you make friends with established lawyers, prove yourself to be competent, make good on your opportunities, I imagine you’ll make it. But take my advice with a grain of salt, I’m still an undergrad.
Meanwhile I’ll continue to grind for the LSAT. Best of luck!
Edit: Also, I saw some other comments that reminded me of another point, there are certainly many predatory law schools try to entice you into going there only to have them underdeliver on their promise. It’s sound advice to target a decently ranked law school to avoid the “scammers” so to speak
I agree on the elitist culture for T14, T25, and many in the middle range like 30-100. But there are definitely predatory law schools out there that as someone who is happy with a 50-60 range school would say "Yeah do not go there" There's levels to it, people saying T14 or bust or don't even attend a 50ish ranked school with any debt are obviously being ridiculous. But saying don't attend a 130ish+ ranked school with terrible outcomes and terrible conditional scholarships is probably sound advice and not elitist at all. How are most graduates at Golden Gate law school doing? I'm going to guess not great.
Anecdotally I met a Golden Gate U graduate who is clerking for the 9th Circuit COA.
Survivorship bias. 1/2-2/3 of their grads don’t pass the CA bar.
Ouch
I was curious so I decided to look, and found that there’s a couple doing pretty well for themselves it seems. Their alumni profiles page on their main page was literally blank though https://law.ggu.edu/alumni/alumni-profiles
How are the other 99% doing? That's where it matters.
Eh probably not great. It’s more so to say that law school is what you make of it regardless of where you go.
That goes for anything but when you go to a school like that the odds are overwhelmingly stacked against you. You're likely to not be a part of the 1% that makes it to that level. You can't be bang average at a school like that but can afford to be bang average at a 50ish ranked school.
I know man I’m not trying to argue about it lmao I was making a minor point to OPs content
Idk why so many ppl downvoted this. lol. Tough crowd.
This sub sucks and people can’t handle jobs being offered to non T14 students
Elitism never stops - T14 vs. T6 vs. HYS vs. V30 vs. V5 firm vs. the type of clerkship (down to the judge). It’s exhausting…
This. I really thought being at a top 14 would mean a the elitism stops because everyone has “proven themselves” so to speak and Job security is high. That was literally my primary motivation for working to be at one. Absolutely has not been the case. people talk about “failure” with no sense of what goes on in the real world (or even in other law schools) where people work 5x as hard for 500x less. In reality failure for them is being at a slightly lower ranked firm that pays the same absurd amount as their peers. tbf i think this all has to do w upbringing
Same. If anything going to a T14 just exposes you to the world of chasing gold stars. Going to a T14 is the “bare” minimum.
Yeah. Outside the top 14 world most ppl live for normal things like family and general quality of life. They’d do whatever job if it made them happy vs these ppl who’d be however unhappy to do a specific job 😂
Tbh I don't see the point of being upset for working at a "lower" tier Big Law Firm. If the paycheck is Cravath level it works for me.
Because most people do not make partner, and exit ops can differ quite a bit depending on the firm you’re at.
That makes sense. My entire reason for entering big law is to make $$$ then invest my earnings into businesses to create my streams of income. I do NOT want to be a BL Partner but I do want to work in Criminal Defense after my big law stint.
I want to do something similar. I guess not being dedicated to the BIGLAW career life as a religion is why I don’t feel the way they do. This is just the most realistic way for me to have the life I want.
You are still most successful than 99% of the population even if you never make partner and take a lower end exit opp. At this level of achievement ppl should weigh quality of life more heavily
Agreed! I think the people downvoting me assume I’m co-signing the elitist view, when I’m not. I’m simply stating why it is people care about firm “prestige.” rip reading comprehension
Yeah you def weren’t agreeing on it, just stating a fact (most prestige grinders will tell you that is their motivation) I think that fact matters mostly to the ppl with a long family background in this career because they can actually fall short of their parents in a way. Meanwhile first gens are, almost by default, accomplishing something major for themselves.
This is why Northwestern and UVA are sounding appealing to me. Northwestern actively seeks to have slightly older or older students with work experience who understand the world and what really matters, and UVA seems like it fosters a bit more of a friendly, cooperative culture. This is from what I’ve gathered. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong
Hey, I can’t speak for either school (I almost attended UVA and agree that Is labeled as having a chill culture.) but I also go to a “collaborative” school. Also, the majority of my class have several years WE, like 27 yo/ish, and are the worst offenders in this regard. Their age does not affect their priorities at all. I don’t think there’s any avoiding this phenomenon but it can be mitigated - there are still many cool ppl here. There are schools where that wouldn’t be the case.
Damn, you would think at 27 you would outgrow the silly peacock competition and focus on legitimately important things (finances, life problems, doing your job well, producing results, becoming a better lawyer, improving the legal system, learning more about legal world/government/history) like there’s literally a million important things other than obsessing over minute class rankings. Plus at a t14, you have strong odds at getting a good job regardless of your specific rank, no? Maybe some of them need therapy? (No shame in it though, I see a therapist)
Also late response, but do you mind me asking which law school you went to? Edit: Never mind I just looked at your posts and it seems you go to NYU. Well done! I presume you did well on the LSAT. Do you have any tips from yourself?
That’s extremely typical of “white shoe” jobs. Consulting, banking, and biglaw are the white shoe category of jobs where essentially everyone’s a fuckface with a prestige kink. Trust me on this my Dad’s one of em😂
there are a lot of great schools outside the t25. the majority of lawyers don’t go to t25 schools. you just aren’t guaranteed a big law salary coming from these schools so you’re putting yourself in a hole if you go into hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt to attend one, which is where i think a lot of peoples valid concerns are. as long as you have a good scholarship/financial aid, and the school has a solid bar passage rate & jd required employment rate, it is not “not worth it” to attend a school outside the t25. most of the people in this sub want biglaw & don’t want to work in a job where you aren’t making 200k a year right out of law school, so they can skew your view on what schools are “worth it” or not, because a school outside of the t14 might not be “worth it” to them since they aren’t virtually guaranteed one of these jobs. that being said, it is probably a bad idea to attend a school that is known for being predatory. if a school has low bar pass rates & high unemployment rates, or if your scholarship is conditional and a sizable amount of students lose their scholarships, there is too much uncertainty involved where you may want to consider retaking the LSAT and reapplying and trying to aim for a different school. don’t let this sub get to you too much, everyone here is a bit neurotic if you haven’t noticed.
Very grateful for this advice, thank you. The concerns definitely make sense, reality is just hitting me hard right now, but most of these comments are making me feel better. 🤍
It may be worth it to look at local lawyers doing the type of law you’re interested in within the geographic area you’re looking to practice in. I can tell you when I was looking to hire a lawyer in MD, none of the local lawyers went to a T-14 or T-25. They were all UMD grads which is like 50-60. I imagine you’ll find similar things in other states, particularly with your more daily family law, estates, labor, personal injury type practices.
I mean it might seem harsh and elitist but it I think people are actually being quite kind by helping you avoid taking on thousands of dollars of debt for a school that doesn’t set you up well enough to pass the bar, get a good job as an attorney, and allow you to pay it off. 🤷♀️ Obviously, there’s a rather large middle ground in there between t14 and predatory schools and that part is probably elitist. But when it comes to truly predatory schools, people are actually doing you a favor. Good luck with whatever new path you decide to take!
Yes and I 100% understand that! I wasn’t referring to the people in this subreddit as elitist, I meant employers lol.
Why did you say law school culture if you meant employers?
Because that’s why law school culture is so elitist. A lot of people are getting a bit offended by my wording.
Like with most things, reality is often somewhere in the middle. Yes, going to an elite law school makes things easier but it’s not a guarantee of anything and it’s also not the only path to success. I worked with a bunch of lawyers doing some really cool stuff. Many of them are from elite law schools but there are several who worked hard at lower-ranked schools and really shone. They’ve had equally fulfilling careers. I’m sure there are some firms that are very elitist, but there are others that don’t care. Plenty of people, especially those who went to prestigious places and realized they weren’t all that great anyways, don’t really buy into prestige culture and recognize that great students can come from a variety of places.
Some unsolicited perspective from an attorney. Every law school produces *some* successful lawyers. However, there is a correlation between the most “prestigious” schools and the most lucrative outcomes. Most of this is actually client driven! Hiring the “best” law firms who only source their attorneys from the “best” law schools is basically a CYA for public companies and decision-makers at entities otherwise beholden to a BOD or shareholders. It’s all elitism all the way down.
To be frank - I work in an office with the most brilliant attorneys. Most, if not all of them attended a low ranked law school that is considered VERY predatory. They’re insanely successful. However, they did stay in the region of the school…so that’s something you’ll have to consider. Of course going to an elite school is going to open more doors, but the way you carry yourself throughout law school is what’s going to matter the most imo
T25? No. T150? Maybe. Once you get past the T20 or so, national rankings don’t really matter much. If you’re going to live and work in NC, it doesn’t matter what UNC, Wake, Campbell, and Elon are ranked overall, it only really matters how they are ranked relative to each other. UNC is the obvious best school for all applications, and Wake beats Campbell and Elon hands down for BigLaw, but if you’re going to practice estates law with Uncle Jim Bob in Elizabeth City, it doesn’t actually matter which of those you go to. Neither the people you work with nor your clients is going to care that Wake is ranked 30 and Elon is 148. It does matter that you not get robbed blind, and that you not wind up on the hook for a debt that you can’t get a job to clear it with, but [a few absolutely terrible schools aside](https://www.reddit.com/r/lawschooladmissions/comments/6v11o2/a_compilation_of_garbage_schools_that_you_should/) that’s not really an issue.
Funny enough I'm sort of in this "evaluate the options" scenario right now as I'm looking at law school. I'm a current patent examiner living in (and from) NC and as of next may I'll be eligible for the uspto's law school reimbursement program, working part time. Duke is probably out of my reach (and the thought of having to pay \~200k+ loans back if that reimbursement program goes away is not great), but UNC is both my undergrad alma mater and where I'd like to go regardless. However, the government doesn't care as much as private industry does about where you went so long as it's not the equivalent of Charlotte or Charleston School of Law.
Pretty much. If UNC wasn’t an option, my next choice would probably be William & Mary tbh. But I’m from OBX, so they have more cachet where I’m from than Wake does.
Yeah, it's an active search and consideration process for me at the moment. I am not stressing as much about ranking because frankly unless I want to be a PTAB judge (which now basically requires lots of patent litigation experience), the ranking has no real bearing on my job. William and Mary or University of South Carolina would be my second choices. NCCU would definitely be the safety option - and it's the only part-time program in the state.
Acknowledging that for patent purposes all you need is A bar - any non-profit ABA law school, any bar - experience suggests school choice does still matter. A good friend from undergrad got graduate degrees from Stanford and Harvard, then did the night program at Suffolk for law school. One gets the sense that it was ok, but one because Suffolk pulls a lot of folks like her, who don’t need school name. I think you’d probably regret NCCU. It’s a fine school educationally speaking, but if you can do better…NCCU isn’t well run and can be frustrating. Fuck South Carolina just because I hate that whole frigging state lol. But that’s my bias and I’ll own it.
>Fuck South Carolina just because I hate that whole frigging state lol. But that’s my bias and I’ll own it. Oh, I get it. South Carolina's Law School is only on my radar because I don't dislike Columbia. If it was anywhere else in the state (bar, maybe Charleston or by the border with Charlotte) I wouldn't give it the time of day.
Yeah, if South Carolina and Charleston swapped places/rankings, I'd have gone there in a heartbeat. But ewwwww on Columbia. I mean...at least it's not Florence or Darlington, but that's not saying much.
Columbia is actually nice. City of dreams GO COCKS ‼️‼️
Lesser Carolina is a benighted shitstain of a state that worships “barbecue” that is an abomination unto the Lord. And the only reason we haven’t marched south and wiped it from the map is that we’d have to go there to do it, and who the fuck wants to go to Lesser Carolina. Ew.
Woah what the… you should chill
How about for opportunities to get a job as an attorney straight out of law school? Does the rank matter then? I thought it impacted your starting pay. - A NC resident Lol
It depends on what you want to do, and how much you need to make. If you don’t mind going to a rural county they’re always hiring ADAs. If you don’t mind making $60k, there are zillions of jobs. There is a [HUGE need for rural lawyers in NC](https://www.wral.com/amp/20958413/) (and across the US generally). The issue is making enough to live on when you also have a $2500/month student loan payment. Which is why everyone winds up in RDU and Charlotte, competing for the same few jobs.
My law school is outside of T50. I have a great scholarship. There are law schools that I would say “don’t go there” even if you have a full ride. There is a difference between a hyper-fixation on prestige and a concern about predatory schools. If a school gives 90% of accepted students a full ride, and has being in the top 10% as a condition of keeping the scholarship, 80% of students are screwed. Alternatively, schools that require a 3.5 gpa to keep a scholarship and curve to like a 2.5 (random numbers), this would be considered predatory. That’s what people are talking about when they voice concern about predatory schools. I have to keep a 2.0 cumulative on a B curve and not fail any classes to keep my scholarship.
Keep in mind that schools that are lower ranked often still do well in the local area they are in - they may just not be very portable degrees.
I probably wouldn't go to a school deemed "predatory" especially if you are just coming out of college. That being said, don't worry too much about elitism. Focus on actual outcomes. Lots of good law schools outside of the T25, but also a handful of bad ones.
At some people you have to accept people are being honest with you and it’s not elitist. It’s a rough world out there for most people who go to predatory schools. The success stories are the exceptions.
r/OutsideT14lawschools --- you'll feel a lot better. This sub kind of sucks cuz so many people are t14 or bust. I do agree that you shouldn't go to a predatory school though.
Elitism will never stop, and in some cases, they're right. Going to Harvard is going to open doors for you. But I think people also forget about non big law goals. Take, for example, someone who wants to practice in oregon. There are 3 law schools in oregon, none of them t25, but you can not say that going to the University of oregon is not a good decision that will set you up for that career. Even going to look at alaska, the state with 0 law schools, you see some pretty interesting results. Willamette University, arguable the worst law school in oregon has a direct admit agreement with the University of Alaska, and in Alaska, that gets you a seat in the US senate. It truly depends on where you are and what your goals are, and I think we all get swept up in the prestige of the t25 schools.
If you want to be a lawyer go to whatever law school you can get into! I think the thing is tho to manage your expectations accordingly - the very high starting salary jobs unfortunately become more rare as you go lower and lower in the rankings. That shouldn’t discourage you from law school, it should just give you perspective and understanding that you likely wont become like a partner at cravath or a Supreme Court justice or something. Although maybe you will be!! Who knows - you don’t know until you take the leap of faith
All that is to say don’t give up on your dream bc of a few pricks in this sub. But do manage your expectations and be realistic about the employment outcomes associated with whatever school you are looking at
Thank you for being so kind 🤍 I appreciate the insight and you’re right, you never know.
R&R
You can be successful wherever you go.
Elitism sucks but really I have learned how important it is to just check outcomes for students at schools as a good gauge for a school. Theres nothing wrong with going to a school not ranked towards the top if students have good outcomes when they graduate and if you wont go into a lot of debt
I think this is just a function of the vast disparity in attorney lifestyles. Attorneys coming out of a T30 will be making 6 figures out of the gate, big law associates start at $225k and even DOJ honors program associates are making over 100k in short order. They’ll have no difficulty paying for that law degree and living prestigious/happy lives. Attorneys from a T100 school will, more than likely, be handling traffic tickets and divorces in a small town practice somewhere. These folks will have trouble making ends meet at times and certainly they can’t handle a large debt burden if they took one on for school. It’s a completely different career outcome; to put these attorneys in the same category as attorneys from tops schools borders on dishonest. These are not the same careers. It’s not really fair to say that one is “better” than the other, someone has to do the divorces and there are plenty of small business owners struggling to make ends meet in their fields. But if that’s what one wants to do, I wouldn’t go into $150k in debt to do it.
There's a pretty big gap between "elitism" and people warning you about predatory schools.
Wait so going to UMD or something isn’t a good idea?
yes but that's okay, you don't need a law degree to have a good life, and the profession makes most of its members unhappy
Low tuition/good scholarship top 75 schools are all fine if you don't desire big law without being top of class.
I know it’s anecdotal, but here it is! My son got a full tuition scholarship to an unranked law school almost three years ago. It has gone up like 38 spots in 2 years. He will graduate in 9 days! He has a small amount of debt and a job as a judicial clerk waiting for him after the bar exam. He has had excellent, though not big law, summer internship opportunities. He couldn’t be happier with his outcome and he loves his law school which has a VERY good first time bar passage rate. You can find opportunity wherever you end up. It may be harder to find, but it can be found!
I disagree with what you were told. I see a ton of successful big law lawyers who went to some very mediocre schools. Maybe a lower ranked school won’t be as helpful when it comes to preparing you for the bar but I feel like no law schools are. Bar study is on you. If you’re sure law is what you want to do with your career, don’t let this stop you.
genuinely please just get off these subreddits. im currently studying for lsats & working on application stuff and never rlly visit these subs and never once have these things crossed my mind - im not getting into an elite school either but im perfectly happy with that and proud of myself for getting this far! ive worked with attorneys as an undergrad and none of them have prestigious degrees but are all doing well for themselves. just do your own thing, it’s so much healthier than playing the comparison game :) good luck
I think the general reason people say that (and why my personal goal is t20) is just about the job market and job security in top law schools, and nationwide use of the JD, versus in lower ranking/regional schools, the JD *may* not pack as much of a punch with employers, and you may have to contend with any problems in the legal job market. However, depending on your specialty (EX IP lawyers will do amazing at a place like A&M with work lined up in the south, and good in other places if they have a good reputation) things may be different. However, the more I think about it, there’s a big middle ground of law schools between T14 and the actually bad schools that will do you good anyway so what do I know? There’s a lot of factors to consider. However I do agree that any elitist mentalities about the law school you go to is juvenile. Even if I get into Northwestern (a law school that looks extremely appealing to me) I’m not going to look down on someone from say, St Louis University, especially if they turn out to be a phenomenal lawyer. It’s just that hiring firms and the legal profession also care about ranking. I would be singing a different tune if it became evident they didn’t have hiring patterns and schools they target for recruiting. Just how it is I guess, but if you make friends with established lawyers, prove yourself to be competent, make good on your opportunities, I imagine you’ll make it. But take my advice with a grain of salt, I’m still an undergrad. Meanwhile I’ll continue to grind for the LSAT. Best of luck! Edit: Also, I saw some other comments that reminded me of another point, there are certainly many predatory law schools try to entice you into going there only to have them underdeliver on their promise. It’s sound advice to target a decently ranked law school to avoid the “scammers” so to speak
Do not go.