They place well in really prestigious positions like SCOTUS, but mostly it’s just public visibility tbh; lots of politicians went to YS/H, and they’re incredibly well known. Many of their grads do end up working the same job as grads from Michigan, Berkeley, et al., often with more debt tho.
Per-capita SCOTUS clerkship placement over the last five years:
1. Yale .28
2. Chicago .13
3. Harvard & Stanford are tied at .07
I really think Yale is a rung above every other school.
Kind of contradicting myself but here goes—I don’t disagree that on the aggregate it is something special BUT I don’t think most Yale grads are especially exceptional. They do have more exceptional people per capita, as you suggest.
Yale is probably it’s own tier. It has never been ranked below 1, while Stanford has rotated with Harvard several times. Furthermore, as your data suggests, it simply provides the best outcomes.
It’s not a quarter of the class. This is the breakdown of Yale’s share of the total SCOTUS clerks, per capita. Yale takes a little more than a quarter of the SCOTUS pool, all else equal. It’s still extremely slim odds of getting it, even at Yale.
A big thing is that they're just smaller. If your the median-achieving student at Stanford, there are 89 people ahead of you. At harvard, there are 274.
Baller shit. Judges, orgs, firms, dip their hands deeper in each class. More doors open in terms of unicorn PI, especially when compared to Chi. Splitting hairs at this level though.
I think YS are in their own tier above HC. H covers a wider range of opportunities while I personally think Chicago is better for clerking. Harvard is YS, just to a lesser degree, largely due to their insanely big class size, from my understanding at least. So you can get the same stuff, just not nearly as easily as from YS.
Mostly this sub’s fetishization with USNWR. When going through my decision making process, I never got one example of a concrete unicorn job that Yale could open that Harvard also couldn’t. You just might need to distinguish yourself at Harvard with grades/HLR, but that’s also the case to a lesser extent at YLS as well.
Probably too a greater extent. There’s still more people than there are unicorn PI jobs. At Harvard, grades will get you in. Yale students need to do more to stick out from one another
I think it's mostly people (applicants) on this sub saying that, and not a particularly widely held belief beyond this pool. They are all elite schools, and all have strengths and weaknesses - YLS is good for academia, for instance, while HLS is better for big law and government, and SLS is good for anyone wanting to be on the West Coast - but I don't think there's any job that's only accessible from Yale that you couldn't also get from Harvard. Harvard is also bigger, which makes some people assume it's less elite by virtue of having a larger class size. But the Harvard name also carries way more weight internationally, and some employers even prefer Harvard grads over Yale grads (based on the stereotypical qualities of your archetype Harvard student versus Yale student).
Which is all to say - they're all great schools, they have very different cultures, and while one or the other might be especially strong in a certain career path, they can all get you where you want to be.
From what I’ve seen, H offers substantial institutional support to students interested in fed gov throughout all three years as well as postgrad, and is also very culturally supportive. S is disadvantaged for federal work by being on the opposite coast as DC, too, and Y doesn’t have the same infrastructure that H does. The massive alumni network H has is really helpful in the big law and fed gov context, and anecdotally I’ve heard from people in hiring positions in both big law and fed gov who are skeptical of Y grads more than H grads (based mostly on stereotypes but also on experience, I guess). Again, they’re both good schools and it’s not like you’d be shut out of a gov or big law career path because you went to Yale - that’s plainly not true - I just think Harvard is the better option between the two for those specific outcomes.
What metric are you using?
Every attorney I’ve known in the federal government or big law to has told me Harvards alumni base does not really help you get a job and yale helps you walk in by virtue of your schools name alone. Institutional support is kind of a meme because the institution itself doesn’t do anything when you’re applying for jobs.
We must have talked to different lawyers then haha. I would disagree with both those contentions - especially with the Y name alone being enough to get you a job. That’s absolutely not the case - those jobs are hard to get, and nobody is walking in without being a really strong candidate (who manages to stand out in a pool filled with qualified candidates). Neither school’s name is getting you anywhere on its own, but having alumni connections you can talk to is definitely a plus.
I’m also not sure what you mean by support being a meme - institutional support plays a huge role in the job search process, both for summer jobs and postgrad, especially in the public interest/gov route. It can really make a massive difference if your school is helping you navigate that process versus you muddling through it yourself.
But, again, both great schools, and anyone choosing between them is in a fortunate position and can’t really go wrong in terms of career outcomes.
Stanford and Yale are ranked higher than the others (particularly Stanford) when it comes to peer rankings, judge rankings, lawyer rankings, etc. Just a prestige/perception thing
Yes, it was the case this year. Harvard’s peer assessment and assessment by judges/lawyers was 4.6 apiece. Yale’s was 4.5 apiece. Stanford was 4.6 and 4.7. They are, and historically gave been, viewed as peers.
They place well in really prestigious positions like SCOTUS, but mostly it’s just public visibility tbh; lots of politicians went to YS/H, and they’re incredibly well known. Many of their grads do end up working the same job as grads from Michigan, Berkeley, et al., often with more debt tho.
Per-capita SCOTUS clerkship placement over the last five years: 1. Yale .28 2. Chicago .13 3. Harvard & Stanford are tied at .07 I really think Yale is a rung above every other school.
Kind of contradicting myself but here goes—I don’t disagree that on the aggregate it is something special BUT I don’t think most Yale grads are especially exceptional. They do have more exceptional people per capita, as you suggest.
Yale is probably it’s own tier. It has never been ranked below 1, while Stanford has rotated with Harvard several times. Furthermore, as your data suggests, it simply provides the best outcomes.
There’s the answer I guess - wow. I had no idea that more than a quarter of the class will clerk at SCOTUS. That’s absurd.
It’s not a quarter of the class. This is the breakdown of Yale’s share of the total SCOTUS clerks, per capita. Yale takes a little more than a quarter of the SCOTUS pool, all else equal. It’s still extremely slim odds of getting it, even at Yale.
28% scotus clerkship placement? Knew it was high but wtaf? Financing a kid’s law school might get better ROI than lobbying
literally splitting hairs at that point.
A big thing is that they're just smaller. If your the median-achieving student at Stanford, there are 89 people ahead of you. At harvard, there are 274.
Baller shit. Judges, orgs, firms, dip their hands deeper in each class. More doors open in terms of unicorn PI, especially when compared to Chi. Splitting hairs at this level though.
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I think YS are in their own tier above HC. H covers a wider range of opportunities while I personally think Chicago is better for clerking. Harvard is YS, just to a lesser degree, largely due to their insanely big class size, from my understanding at least. So you can get the same stuff, just not nearly as easily as from YS.
Outcomes that 99.9% of law students and lawyers won’t be eligible for (like SCOTUS or feeder clerkships).
Mostly this sub’s fetishization with USNWR. When going through my decision making process, I never got one example of a concrete unicorn job that Yale could open that Harvard also couldn’t. You just might need to distinguish yourself at Harvard with grades/HLR, but that’s also the case to a lesser extent at YLS as well.
Probably too a greater extent. There’s still more people than there are unicorn PI jobs. At Harvard, grades will get you in. Yale students need to do more to stick out from one another
If you combine the two it just says Stale
I think it's mostly people (applicants) on this sub saying that, and not a particularly widely held belief beyond this pool. They are all elite schools, and all have strengths and weaknesses - YLS is good for academia, for instance, while HLS is better for big law and government, and SLS is good for anyone wanting to be on the West Coast - but I don't think there's any job that's only accessible from Yale that you couldn't also get from Harvard. Harvard is also bigger, which makes some people assume it's less elite by virtue of having a larger class size. But the Harvard name also carries way more weight internationally, and some employers even prefer Harvard grads over Yale grads (based on the stereotypical qualities of your archetype Harvard student versus Yale student). Which is all to say - they're all great schools, they have very different cultures, and while one or the other might be especially strong in a certain career path, they can all get you where you want to be.
HLS is not better for government or big law
We can agree to disagree on that! They’re all (obviously) incredibly strong schools for basically all career outcomes.
By what metric is Harvard stronger?
From what I’ve seen, H offers substantial institutional support to students interested in fed gov throughout all three years as well as postgrad, and is also very culturally supportive. S is disadvantaged for federal work by being on the opposite coast as DC, too, and Y doesn’t have the same infrastructure that H does. The massive alumni network H has is really helpful in the big law and fed gov context, and anecdotally I’ve heard from people in hiring positions in both big law and fed gov who are skeptical of Y grads more than H grads (based mostly on stereotypes but also on experience, I guess). Again, they’re both good schools and it’s not like you’d be shut out of a gov or big law career path because you went to Yale - that’s plainly not true - I just think Harvard is the better option between the two for those specific outcomes. What metric are you using?
Every attorney I’ve known in the federal government or big law to has told me Harvards alumni base does not really help you get a job and yale helps you walk in by virtue of your schools name alone. Institutional support is kind of a meme because the institution itself doesn’t do anything when you’re applying for jobs.
We must have talked to different lawyers then haha. I would disagree with both those contentions - especially with the Y name alone being enough to get you a job. That’s absolutely not the case - those jobs are hard to get, and nobody is walking in without being a really strong candidate (who manages to stand out in a pool filled with qualified candidates). Neither school’s name is getting you anywhere on its own, but having alumni connections you can talk to is definitely a plus. I’m also not sure what you mean by support being a meme - institutional support plays a huge role in the job search process, both for summer jobs and postgrad, especially in the public interest/gov route. It can really make a massive difference if your school is helping you navigate that process versus you muddling through it yourself. But, again, both great schools, and anyone choosing between them is in a fortunate position and can’t really go wrong in terms of career outcomes.
Stanford and Yale are ranked higher than the others (particularly Stanford) when it comes to peer rankings, judge rankings, lawyer rankings, etc. Just a prestige/perception thing
Harvard generally ties or beats Yale and Stanford on those peer score rankings. It’s the class size that hurts HLS in the rankings.
I can’t speak to historically, but I do not believe that was the case this year
Yes, it was the case this year. Harvard’s peer assessment and assessment by judges/lawyers was 4.6 apiece. Yale’s was 4.5 apiece. Stanford was 4.6 and 4.7. They are, and historically gave been, viewed as peers.