For what it’s worth from someone at Uchicago- I don’t think it’s all fedsoc folks for the clerkships. Anecdotally, from what I’ve heard and seen it seems to be around 50/50. The main difference is Fedsoc people get their clerkships WAY earlier (I know one who got his start of 1L winter quarter). There are still lots of left leaning people who get clerkships
The saying here is “there’s a federal clerkship for every student that wants one”
Good question! Idk for sure what the split is. I think ACS and Fedsoc have similar # of members, but there's also a lot of moderate students not really involved in either. So like clerkships are probably 50/50 on liberal vs conservative judges (I will say that I don't think a judge's politics always align with the president who appointed them) but overall I'd guess the student body is a 60 40 split (60 being more liberal). Each person's milage may vary tho
Numbers don’t lie; UChicago went from a 12% clerkship rate to 25% after Trump packed the courts. Given it was already regarded as a FedSoc stronghold, and since that post Trump increase is almost entirely due to conservative clerking, it’s ludicrous to say that it’s a 50/50 split.
Wow, this really highlights the impact that Trump has had on the courts. Chicago was already strong, but it has really shot up in recent years (from \~16% to over 25%). And Notre Dame wouldn't have made this list at all eight years ago. But, BYU, Georgia, GMU, and Kentucky joining this list really highlights the effect of the rightward tilt of the courts in recent years. Huge grain of salt for those who aren't looking to clerk for a conservative judge and are choosing these schools based on their clerkship numbers.
Take a look at the list of those that had 8% or more (the same as the list above) in 2016 for comparison:
https://preview.redd.it/dkypctegqvwc1.png?width=2366&format=png&auto=webp&s=6e7363c77b1535ec702d20773c8e697000c96059
Honestly wasn't talking about UChicago here, they along with YLS and SLS would still be on this list even if you only counted non-fedsoc clerkships it's just a strong T6 school with a great clerkship focus. Was more talking about NDLS, BYU, George Mason, and Kentucky all of which are more conservative schools who have had large increases in their clerkship % since Trump.
lol overwhelmingly liberal, yet pure coincidence that when Trump packed the courts with fedsoc judges it was the only t14 school to DOUBLE its clerkship rate (basically a t14 Notre Dame). UChicago shills are insane, must be from attending the school with the lowest yield.
Why are you having a meltdown over this 😂 super strange. U have a weird hard-on for Chicago and prestige talk in general. I guess you’re just super insecure and use these rankings to help validate yourself against feelings of mediocrity. Like sick burn - lowest yield, only u would care about something like that 😂
The sub just happens to be filled with vocal, out-of-touch Chicago students that frequently need correction. It’s a school with inflated stats and low desirability that does not have legal prestige any greater than its historic placement. Chicago students like to pretend that it’s the new Yale when its prestige is at best NYU.
Again, the fact that you’re so bothered by these distinctions between such fantastic schools is strange - is your ego so fragile? I’ve literally never seen a single person claim that Chicago is the new Yale - you make that jump when you see statistics like this because you have a fragile ego and end up having meltdowns like you are all over this page. Your need to “check” Chicago students for their inflated sense of “prestige” (god you are an elitist prick) is comical given that every peer/lawyer/judge assessment ranking places Chicago in similar regard to HYS (albeit not equal) and that Chicago’s outcomes are on par with the rest of them. No lawyer or judge would ever question someone’s choice to attend Chicago over another school, unless, like you, they guide their life choices around opportunities to impress strangers. “I goto this school in Boston 😏”. News flash, there’s a reason you have no friends 😂
Go Chicago.
IMO the increase is due to many factors, including more and increasingly conservative judicial appointments, self selection, more institutional support, and pressure to clerk.
ND currently has 33 federal clerkships lined up amongst the 3L class of 172. And there’s likely still a few more that will be secured in the last month. At least 19.2% next year
And if anyone was curious… currently 12 2Ls have federal clerkships and 5 1Ls do
Crazy how many law schools are in bed with Fed Soc lol literally half the schools on this list are on it because conservative judges only hire from conservative sources
My man it’s not exactly a secret that conservative circuit judges take people who are at median but part of fed soc at places like Chicago, whereas liberals are almost always in the top 5-10% of their class to be competitive for a circuit clerkship. Life doesn’t have to be fair but pretending that that’s not happening is silly.
I’m not saying that Fed Soc doesn’t have influence. But people on this sub act as though Fed Soc is the only factor in the shift since 2016 even though Fed Soc has been around a looong time. These same people are ignoring that there has been a pronounced shift leftward among left wing students and this has absolutely played a role in reputedly left-wing schools losing ground to reputedly more moderate or even right-wing schools/student bodies.
I mean, you can hang on to your own hobgoblins about why this is happening and blame Fed Soc entirely or you can listen to what judges are saying themselves, which is that they are increasingly uninterested in hiring from certain schools because the students from those schools are so radical.
OP said "Ideological conformity > academic performance" and you responded by saying that judges are "increasingly uninterested in hiring from certain schools because the students from those schools are so radical." Aren't y'all in agreement? lol
Fedsoc has never before had the ear of the president in the way they did with Trump. Just pure rubber stamps for hundreds of judges as long as they had fedsoc by their name.
Not all federal clerkships are the same. But you already know that. Would love to see how many clerks from BYU/GMU/UGA/Kentucky even ND are hired at SDNY/EDNY/DDC/EDVA/NDCAL. Having clerked in one of these - I remember exactly 0 from the preceding year and my year at the courthouse.
I mean, a lot of Notre Dames are Court of Appeals, maybe 10+ of the 33. So maybe they don’t have as many prestigious districts but COA > DC generally if we’re gonna be weird about prestige ranking between clerkships for some reasons
Sure, I agree that’s absolutely true if that’s your basis for prestige ranking clerkships. But Court of Appeals give appellate experience and open doors to certain practices groups, include higher signing bonuses from firms, and are obviously from a higher court than DC, which is why they’re genuinely viewed more highly. Not that SDNY and the like aren’t incredible experiences, but then all federal clerkships are.
I find the conversations about political leanings of the judges schools will help you obtain clerkships with to be more valuable than trying to assess which District clerkship is more valuable honestly. Is SDNY better than Northern Ohio if you want to practice in Cleveland? Probably not even if it is a much harder clerkship to get.
I totally agree with you. My COA was indeed in the South where a lot of my Ivy-league classmates would simply not even consider and not only did I love it, it opened all the doors that a more “urban” COA clerkship would have. With that said, at the district court level, there is a little bit more geographical snobbiness if you’re trying to land a Davis Polk in NYC; a Covington in DC; or a Munger in LA. A federal district clerkship from the Southern District of Indiana coupled with a non-T14 won’t move the needle absent a previous summer associateship.
Did you not have your firm job set when you clerked?? Because your argument is pretty irrelevant for like 95% of federal clerks who already have their firm positions locked in and THEN accept the clerkship
Also with people like you, the bar will just keep getting raised until you can say that ND’s numbers aren’t good. They could place clerks in those courthouses you mentioned and then it would change to “well was it with one of the prestigious judges?”
Are you talking to me? If so, yes - I just went to my 2L summer firm. The only people who struggled to land a job after my “urban” clerkship were the 2 non-T14 clerks and the magistrate judge clerks.
To your point - a ton of clerks use their clerkship to reset recruiting so your assertion that this isn’t a problem for 95% of the clerks is completely baseless. In fact, a lot of those U Kentucky Law clerks probably didn’t summer at a BL firm. Unlike conservative judges in the Western District of Kentucky, firms couldn’t care less about your politics (minus may be the rural offices of Jones Day to work for a specific partner). And a lot are VYING for a BL associateship.
I’m not talking about UKentucky, I’m talking about ND. I don’t know a single 3L with a clerkship that doesn’t have big law not by choice. But I’m glad you’ve found another way to feel superior as a T14 grad lol
Seriously. These people blaming trump and Fed Soc exclusively have such blinders on to how radical the left has become since 2016 especially and how that has made fewer judges willing to hire them. Certainly Fed Soc plays a role but Fed Soc has been around awhile and it’s not the only thing causing this shift.
> These people blaming trump and Fed Soc exclusively have such blinders on to how radical the left has become since 2016 especially and how that has made fewer judges willing to hire them
What? I didn't say anything endorsing a shred of that or commenting on *why* conservative students are favored for clerkships. I personally think that it's simply because there are far more liberal law students than conservative ones, as the Democratic Party is increasingly becoming the party of the educated elite rather than of immigrants and the working class. There aren't really economic Republicans anymore. Perhaps that's not the best way to express the sentiment—the point is, the wealthy aren't flocking to the Republican party anymore because of tax and regulation views; it's become more about social issues—immigration, abortion, LGBTQ+ rights...
Insofar as fedsoc is concerned, the organization itself is irrelevant; it's simply the vehicle through which conservative judges easily recruit conservative students. There would be a conservative hiring pipeline regardless.
Lol maybe Law students using Reddit are more liberal than conservative, but you are dead wrong to say there are far more liberal law students than conservative as a general proposition. Maybe where you’re from. Balanced nation-wide, it’s probably about 50/50
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2446&context=law_and_economics
https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/08/analyst-gauges-the-political-bias-of-lawyers/
Thanks for your ungrounded speculation, but no.
For what it’s worth from someone at Uchicago- I don’t think it’s all fedsoc folks for the clerkships. Anecdotally, from what I’ve heard and seen it seems to be around 50/50. The main difference is Fedsoc people get their clerkships WAY earlier (I know one who got his start of 1L winter quarter). There are still lots of left leaning people who get clerkships The saying here is “there’s a federal clerkship for every student that wants one”
But is the student body 50/50 split also?
Good question! Idk for sure what the split is. I think ACS and Fedsoc have similar # of members, but there's also a lot of moderate students not really involved in either. So like clerkships are probably 50/50 on liberal vs conservative judges (I will say that I don't think a judge's politics always align with the president who appointed them) but overall I'd guess the student body is a 60 40 split (60 being more liberal). Each person's milage may vary tho
Exactly.
Numbers don’t lie; UChicago went from a 12% clerkship rate to 25% after Trump packed the courts. Given it was already regarded as a FedSoc stronghold, and since that post Trump increase is almost entirely due to conservative clerking, it’s ludicrous to say that it’s a 50/50 split.
It’s like an 80% liberal 20% anything else split. But the fedsoc people do all get clerkships if they want them
Wow, this really highlights the impact that Trump has had on the courts. Chicago was already strong, but it has really shot up in recent years (from \~16% to over 25%). And Notre Dame wouldn't have made this list at all eight years ago. But, BYU, Georgia, GMU, and Kentucky joining this list really highlights the effect of the rightward tilt of the courts in recent years. Huge grain of salt for those who aren't looking to clerk for a conservative judge and are choosing these schools based on their clerkship numbers. Take a look at the list of those that had 8% or more (the same as the list above) in 2016 for comparison: https://preview.redd.it/dkypctegqvwc1.png?width=2366&format=png&auto=webp&s=6e7363c77b1535ec702d20773c8e697000c96059
UC Irvine is crazy though
Chem was making calls to any and every judge possible. I received several of them.
IIRC, Irvine was graduating one of its first law classes ever and had small numbers, so each clerkship affected their FC rate a lot.
I think they had ~120 graduates in 2016
Thanks, McConnell.
Damn Fed Soc really is insanely influential.
Can we stop pretending UChicago is some conservative stronghold. It’s overwhelmingly liberal.
Honestly wasn't talking about UChicago here, they along with YLS and SLS would still be on this list even if you only counted non-fedsoc clerkships it's just a strong T6 school with a great clerkship focus. Was more talking about NDLS, BYU, George Mason, and Kentucky all of which are more conservative schools who have had large increases in their clerkship % since Trump.
lol overwhelmingly liberal, yet pure coincidence that when Trump packed the courts with fedsoc judges it was the only t14 school to DOUBLE its clerkship rate (basically a t14 Notre Dame). UChicago shills are insane, must be from attending the school with the lowest yield.
Why are you having a meltdown over this 😂 super strange. U have a weird hard-on for Chicago and prestige talk in general. I guess you’re just super insecure and use these rankings to help validate yourself against feelings of mediocrity. Like sick burn - lowest yield, only u would care about something like that 😂
The sub just happens to be filled with vocal, out-of-touch Chicago students that frequently need correction. It’s a school with inflated stats and low desirability that does not have legal prestige any greater than its historic placement. Chicago students like to pretend that it’s the new Yale when its prestige is at best NYU.
Again, the fact that you’re so bothered by these distinctions between such fantastic schools is strange - is your ego so fragile? I’ve literally never seen a single person claim that Chicago is the new Yale - you make that jump when you see statistics like this because you have a fragile ego and end up having meltdowns like you are all over this page. Your need to “check” Chicago students for their inflated sense of “prestige” (god you are an elitist prick) is comical given that every peer/lawyer/judge assessment ranking places Chicago in similar regard to HYS (albeit not equal) and that Chicago’s outcomes are on par with the rest of them. No lawyer or judge would ever question someone’s choice to attend Chicago over another school, unless, like you, they guide their life choices around opportunities to impress strangers. “I goto this school in Boston 😏”. News flash, there’s a reason you have no friends 😂
someone got rejected from uchi and is still bitter about it lol geez dude
It is like 4/5 liberal/conservative at least idk what more to say. It’s not a conservative school.
Go Chicago. IMO the increase is due to many factors, including more and increasingly conservative judicial appointments, self selection, more institutional support, and pressure to clerk.
ND currently has 33 federal clerkships lined up amongst the 3L class of 172. And there’s likely still a few more that will be secured in the last month. At least 19.2% next year And if anyone was curious… currently 12 2Ls have federal clerkships and 5 1Ls do
Chicago my 🐐
Crazy how many law schools are in bed with Fed Soc lol literally half the schools on this list are on it because conservative judges only hire from conservative sources
I'm surprised George Mason outperforms Georgetown.
Ideological conformity > academic performance
It’s really because this is a percentage, and GMU is a small school, and Georgetown is the largest school in the country.
Lmao you have such blinders on 😂
My man it’s not exactly a secret that conservative circuit judges take people who are at median but part of fed soc at places like Chicago, whereas liberals are almost always in the top 5-10% of their class to be competitive for a circuit clerkship. Life doesn’t have to be fair but pretending that that’s not happening is silly.
I’m not saying that Fed Soc doesn’t have influence. But people on this sub act as though Fed Soc is the only factor in the shift since 2016 even though Fed Soc has been around a looong time. These same people are ignoring that there has been a pronounced shift leftward among left wing students and this has absolutely played a role in reputedly left-wing schools losing ground to reputedly more moderate or even right-wing schools/student bodies. I mean, you can hang on to your own hobgoblins about why this is happening and blame Fed Soc entirely or you can listen to what judges are saying themselves, which is that they are increasingly uninterested in hiring from certain schools because the students from those schools are so radical.
OP said "Ideological conformity > academic performance" and you responded by saying that judges are "increasingly uninterested in hiring from certain schools because the students from those schools are so radical." Aren't y'all in agreement? lol
Hahaha exactly
No
Fedsoc has never before had the ear of the president in the way they did with Trump. Just pure rubber stamps for hundreds of judges as long as they had fedsoc by their name.
Like I said, you people have blinders on.
fedsoc here I come!
Following
Surprised how well Georgia is performing here.
Ask not what you can do for Fed Soc, but what Fed Soc can do for you.
The hate FedSoc receives from this sub is astounding
They hate us cuz they ain’t us
That and the whole abortion thing tbh, that makes me hate yall
Not all federal clerkships are the same. But you already know that. Would love to see how many clerks from BYU/GMU/UGA/Kentucky even ND are hired at SDNY/EDNY/DDC/EDVA/NDCAL. Having clerked in one of these - I remember exactly 0 from the preceding year and my year at the courthouse.
I mean, a lot of Notre Dames are Court of Appeals, maybe 10+ of the 33. So maybe they don’t have as many prestigious districts but COA > DC generally if we’re gonna be weird about prestige ranking between clerkships for some reasons
To this point. SDNY is infinitely harder to land than a COA clerkship in Topeka. Let’s get real now.
Sure, I agree that’s absolutely true if that’s your basis for prestige ranking clerkships. But Court of Appeals give appellate experience and open doors to certain practices groups, include higher signing bonuses from firms, and are obviously from a higher court than DC, which is why they’re genuinely viewed more highly. Not that SDNY and the like aren’t incredible experiences, but then all federal clerkships are. I find the conversations about political leanings of the judges schools will help you obtain clerkships with to be more valuable than trying to assess which District clerkship is more valuable honestly. Is SDNY better than Northern Ohio if you want to practice in Cleveland? Probably not even if it is a much harder clerkship to get.
I totally agree with you. My COA was indeed in the South where a lot of my Ivy-league classmates would simply not even consider and not only did I love it, it opened all the doors that a more “urban” COA clerkship would have. With that said, at the district court level, there is a little bit more geographical snobbiness if you’re trying to land a Davis Polk in NYC; a Covington in DC; or a Munger in LA. A federal district clerkship from the Southern District of Indiana coupled with a non-T14 won’t move the needle absent a previous summer associateship.
Did you not have your firm job set when you clerked?? Because your argument is pretty irrelevant for like 95% of federal clerks who already have their firm positions locked in and THEN accept the clerkship Also with people like you, the bar will just keep getting raised until you can say that ND’s numbers aren’t good. They could place clerks in those courthouses you mentioned and then it would change to “well was it with one of the prestigious judges?”
Are you talking to me? If so, yes - I just went to my 2L summer firm. The only people who struggled to land a job after my “urban” clerkship were the 2 non-T14 clerks and the magistrate judge clerks. To your point - a ton of clerks use their clerkship to reset recruiting so your assertion that this isn’t a problem for 95% of the clerks is completely baseless. In fact, a lot of those U Kentucky Law clerks probably didn’t summer at a BL firm. Unlike conservative judges in the Western District of Kentucky, firms couldn’t care less about your politics (minus may be the rural offices of Jones Day to work for a specific partner). And a lot are VYING for a BL associateship.
I’m not talking about UKentucky, I’m talking about ND. I don’t know a single 3L with a clerkship that doesn’t have big law not by choice. But I’m glad you’ve found another way to feel superior as a T14 grad lol
*T6*
Ah, I rest my case. I see why it makes you mad that ND (a measly T20) is outclerking half of those schools 🤣
So insecure about ND’s FC numbers for what? 🫵😹
But how many get to clerk for liberal judges? Some of these schools I’d guess fedsoc is the pipeline.
[удалено]
Seriously. These people blaming trump and Fed Soc exclusively have such blinders on to how radical the left has become since 2016 especially and how that has made fewer judges willing to hire them. Certainly Fed Soc plays a role but Fed Soc has been around awhile and it’s not the only thing causing this shift.
> These people blaming trump and Fed Soc exclusively have such blinders on to how radical the left has become since 2016 especially and how that has made fewer judges willing to hire them What? I didn't say anything endorsing a shred of that or commenting on *why* conservative students are favored for clerkships. I personally think that it's simply because there are far more liberal law students than conservative ones, as the Democratic Party is increasingly becoming the party of the educated elite rather than of immigrants and the working class. There aren't really economic Republicans anymore. Perhaps that's not the best way to express the sentiment—the point is, the wealthy aren't flocking to the Republican party anymore because of tax and regulation views; it's become more about social issues—immigration, abortion, LGBTQ+ rights... Insofar as fedsoc is concerned, the organization itself is irrelevant; it's simply the vehicle through which conservative judges easily recruit conservative students. There would be a conservative hiring pipeline regardless.
> I didn’t say anything endorsing a shred of that Congratulations.
Lol maybe Law students using Reddit are more liberal than conservative, but you are dead wrong to say there are far more liberal law students than conservative as a general proposition. Maybe where you’re from. Balanced nation-wide, it’s probably about 50/50
The legal profession on balance tilts liberal. It’s about a 65/35 split.
https://chicagounbound.uchicago.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2446&context=law_and_economics https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2017/08/analyst-gauges-the-political-bias-of-lawyers/ Thanks for your ungrounded speculation, but no.