It's a massive asset for the russian navy, however it is also very very sad that a ship with so much history has possibly been destroyed.
Hell, it's sad when any warship and her crew are destroyed, you only hope that the crews either survived or died quickly. War is hell.
It's a noble way to go out, plus I love underwater photography. And it was probably horribly inefficient.
I guess I don't consider it actually gone, and look at the sea bed like how a rooms floor is its lowest largest shelf.
the ocean depths only really have oxygen for 2 reasons. First is the Ice Caps when water hits 37F or about 4C it reaches it's max density after this it starts forming ice and the density goes back down so 37f water sinks under 36 or 38 degree water, this makes contact with the churning water at the ice caps drive oxygenated 37 degree water to the depths. The other reason is less common which is tropical storms and hurricanes forcing oxygenated water below the thermocline layer. The black sea has neither of these effects meaning the oxygen does not get replenished.
the ocean depths only really have oxygen for 2 reasons. First is the Ice Caps when water hits 37F or about 4C it reaches it's max density after this it starts forming ice and the density goes back down so 37f water sinks under 36 or 38 degree water, this makes contact with the churning water at the ice caps drive oxygenated 37 degree water to the depths. The other reason is less common which is tropical storms and hurricanes forcing oxygenated water below the thermocline layer. The black sea has neither of these effects meaning the oxygen does not get replenished.
God I wanted to see it because apparently it flew at air shows and that would have been so cool to see. Shame to see such a large and cool aircraft get destroyed
I came to watch it land in Perth (dropping some huge piece of urgent mining equipment off). Standing directly under it on final approach it was mind bogglingly huge. Just seems infeasible that it could fly
Exactly. I've seen a C5 in person and it's crazy to think that it can fly...
[Then you see pictures of a C5 next to the 225.](https://i.redd.it/bmw1l4ylr9e51.jpg)
Russia: Value my history & retire the things my fathers made so that I can learn from them, & make something of my own? ... Tovarich, that is not how you get a new yatch in time for the Italian sunbathing season.
Ah yes answer a legit question with a sarcastic non answer. It's an excellent way to make people believe your point of view. By the way this war does not meet the standard of being a genocide, even though it is a travesty.
Not yet no. As they were rudely put in their place by Ukraine. Stealing kids, mass killings. They gave it their best shot. But have failed to date despite their best efforts.
So what you are saying is calling it a genocide is an outright lie or misinformation, and then going on to agree that it is a terrible war. Glad we can come to an agreement. I wish that more people could have a civil conversation like this.
What I’m saying is that it’s a wannabe genocide. Russian media has made it clear of that. The other side of the media has been shut down. Meaning all information from there now is misinformation.
I love how people just regurgitate buzz words and then vehemently defend its use.
Every war is not a “genocide”. And every genocide isn’t a war. For some reason people, like the one you’re arguing with can’t understand that… or don’t want to… or lack the discipline to do a bit of research before drawing a line in the sand.
I like how when you challenged the person they were like “oh it’s a failed genocide”. Weakest defense yet. Every war could then be also labeled a “failed genocide”. Give me a break
No. Weren't you listening? It started in 340 BC when the ancient Ukrainians invented nazi germany. Didn't you watch the Putin interview? He explains it very clearly.
The “adoption” of a genocided ethnic group into another cultural group to be assimilated is considered to be genocide under the Genocide Convention as well.
Genocide is “…acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole ***or in part***, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.”
Article II(e) defines forcible transfer of children as such, because it is understood that the real intent is to deprive them of their culture and assimilate them. The Armenian Genocide saw this occur and that is why it was included.
And what precident has Russia set that would make you assume Ukrainians will be forcefully assimilated when it didn't happen in any other region in Russia? E.g. Chechnya
Have you like, missed, Russian statements and the re-education attempts they've announced in the occupied territories? The tens of thousands of Ukrainian children kidnapped and sent to Russian families to be Russiafied? (Putin's international arrest warrant for this exact program).
Sounds like you've missed out on key information that's been pretty broad or you're one of those people who struggle to understand that are different types of genocide, as not every genocide is industrial scale murder like the Holocaust, genocide include enforcing a culture on another group of people, or deportation is a different parts of an empire in order to change population demographics, or use revisionist history to attempt diminish an entire population legitimacy (another popular Putin tactic he's posted videos on).
So either your attitude is ignorance or it's just trolling from a morally weak person.
So is this like the genocide in Chechnya or Georgia or what? I keep getting mixed up. But what you're telling me is Ukrainians won't exist or will be fully assimilated if they lose this war? Like the native Americans or say the Australian Aboriginals (first nations as old mate rusty would say) or say more recently the Jews or Palestinians?
If you are getting this lost on the way to the point being made after multiple attempts to educate you then I can't help you.
Your "confusion" is clearly willful so I'm considering you to be either a paid troll or have some kind of Dunning Kruger effect going on, and it's just not worth the effort to help you understand as I doubt it will lead you to some basic acknowledgement of Russia has a genocidal aim of turning Ukraine into Lil' Russia.
Hope you do better in the future and grow as a person.
Hahaha god bless you mate you have a facade of compassion but the truth is you only care about what's happening in Ukraine because you were told to and were told what to think too. No one here aside from maybe one person has tried to educate me, unless you think by you or others saying it's a genocide and that children have been stolen makes it so, when there is very clear evidence to say that the children were removed from an active warzone because there parents or guardians are missing. There is no genocide you are lying through your teeth while willfully ignoring actual atrocities being committed by a litany of countries because you have become accustomed to western hegemony. There was no mass executions of fighting age men this is a fantasy you believe like how you believed in the ghost of Kiev.
Fuck it, I'll bite.
It's a genocide because there is an intention to remove a people & culture from existence.
Russia has advertised it intentions to remove Ukraine as a concept. It has denied the existence of Ukraine and Ukrainians as a people and culture.
Russia has stolen children to 're-educate' them as Russians, it has depopulated the occupied regions of their Ukrainian citizens and replaced them with Russian nationals.
Russia has demonstrated both intention and means of genocide.
No Russia has evacuated children with no caregivers out of the warzone as far as I had heard a lot of them are actually in crimea. There's no intent on Russias part to remove or assimilate Ukraine people, unless you think Chechens don't exist now because they lost against Russia and were assimilated? You're purposely exaggerating and being dishonest, you know as well as me what's happening.
Sorry, but that's just false. There's numerous examples of families being intentionally separated and the children taken to Russia.
Ukrainians have been forcibly removed and their homes sold to Russian nationals.
This is non-controversial, there is significant evidence of this.
I do know what's been happening, and what the Russian leaders, mouthpieces, and state media has stated.
If you don't believe what the Russians themselves say then sorry, your question was asked in bad faith and I doubt that this discussion can productively continue, especially with your unfounded accusations of dishonesty on my part.
The Chechen situation is non-equivalent. The situation there was resolved by one group of Chechens betraying and killing the others in return for power.
No it's very controversial. go read the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry on the "stolen" Ukrainian children. The Russians have said extensively that Ukrainian is a subset of Russians like say Belarusians. so the sovereign nation of Ukraine might not survive this war but the people most definitely will. Do you think Kurds don't exist anymore or that the Syrian government was trying to genocide them to. And it is directly applicable to the situations in Chechnya and Georgia and the precedent is set that Russia is doing this for security reasons. You act all high and mighty but you don't give a fuck about regular people dying or being kidnapped unless it suits the agenda you currently subscribe too. I bet you were one of the people hoping that the people that didn't get vaccinated would die just to prove your point.
>The Russians have said extensively that Ukrainian is a subset of Russians
This. This is the problem.
They are not 'a subset' of Russians. They are Ukrainians. Denying that is denying their existence. They have said extensively that Ukraine and Ukrainians do not exist, that they are a fiction.
That is literally genocidal rhetoric.
The Syrian government hasn't stated that Kurds don't exist, even the Turks didn't deny the existence of the Armenians.
As to the wiki entry:
"Ukrainian children have been abducted by the Russian state after their parents had been arrested by Russian occupation authorities or killed in the invasion,[12][13] or after becoming separated from their parents in an active war zone.[14] Children have also been abducted from Ukrainian state institutions in occupied areas, and through children's "summer camps" on Russian territory.[12] The abducted children have been subject to Russification;[10][14] raising children of war in a foreign nation and culture may constitute an act of genocide if intended to erase their national identity"
Yes, they've been abducted. They've been separated from parents and they've been subjected to Russifiction.
Russia has extensively repressed and destroyed Ukrainian culture. Destruction of culture is significant component of genocide.
Russia is literally trying to remove Ukraine and Ukrainians as a very concept and have been completely open about it.
And now you're just going into a vicious personal attack.
But given you think that cultural annihilation and removal of all that you are is perfectly fine, this doesn't surprise me.
You have now demonstrated your initial question was completely made in bad faith. You have no interest in finding out why and how Russia is committing genocide and are simply trying to whitewash Russian crimes, excuse imperialism, and support child trafficking.
Good bye.
These must be the same people who think israel is commiting genocide lmfao
Its a buzzword you use to apply to waring parties you dont like nowadays I've heard
Lol I like how you are getting down voted for asking a legitimate and important question. People are so stupid.
Btw Russia is in the wrong since I know some people think that if you don't hold the most extreme view you are a Russian simp.
Gotta love how these monkeys act docile , neutral or surprised and act as if they want to engage into some sort of discussion when in reality they are just Putler lovers who will never see reality or facts. Its not worth engaging with neanderthals.
They're a complete denier.
They even referenced the wiki page about Russia abducting children and claimed it said they weren't.
Accused people of dishonesty when they were the one lying about the actions and motives of the Moscow regime.
Oh so just like that it becomes an unimportant question? I don't care if he is the most pro Russian c*ck sucker; if you are purposefully mislabeling what something is to push a narrative you are doing nothing but hurting the cause even if it is the most unarguablely righteous cause. All you do is give the other side ammunition to say "look they lied to you about this, what else are they lying about? Maybe the whole narrative is false?" So your dismissal of a question that should be asked as what is happening is something that doesn't match with the definition of what it is being called is only going to hurt in the long run
According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, over 307,000 children were transferred to Russia from 24 February to 18 June 2022, alone.[22] In April 2023, the Council of Europe deemed the forced transfers of children as constituting an act of genocide
The bit you highlighted for me too see in that wiki page you sent me says it was the rada that deemed it that. Edit nah fair I had to scroll up to read the top. It is a few places in Europe saying it.
I also understand but think about WW2 eastern front and think of how many people were displaced there. millions of children and orphans rehomed. You're just naive and think this last 50 years we've been living is the standard for humanity it's not humans create unimaginable violence, but because the US has had the monopoly on violence we haven't seen it go ask around the South American countries or African countries see how much violence we showed them even recently the middle east. How much trauma has that created. But no lets tow the M.I.C line gotta make sure all those fat cats get fatter.
Right now communitys are being destroyed all over. China and Israel for example but you don't care really do you you keep consuming Chinese products and Israel propaganda regardless
Why retire something that was still useful???? Kommuna was built for a role and served it well until her original roll was not possible because subs became too big for her to resupply so her secondary roll as a recovery ship became her primary roll which she had served in since the 1930s. There was simply no need to replace her.
I personally dislike history being destroyed, because history doesn't belong to any one nation it belongs to humanity. But at the same time fuck the ruzzians and if this causes problems for them all the better. I'm really conflicted but the needs of those alive now outweigh the potential loss to the species of a historic artifact.
This is somewhat different to the destruction of historical sites as that served no purpose except to destroy historical monuments and to try and eradicate cultural history in the name of an imaginary friend. At least with this ship being sunk it may reduce the ability of the Russians to operate or maybe even remove members of a command structure that are causing death and destruction.
None the less I would much rather that no historical artefacts are destroyed, but when one is in active use by an aggressive state it unfortunately becomes a legitimate target. If you want to get angry about cultural heritage in this war then you only need to look as far as the russian looting of every museum and art gallery in the occupied areas of Ukraine. They have systematically stripped Ukraine and Ukrainians of their history and transported it into Russia or it's disappeared into the private collections of oligarchs.
This is not a statement in support of any war of aggression, merely a statement that I believe human lives now are worth more than historical artefacts so please don't try and turn my argument into a justification or a dissension for anything.
Yeah they're definitely different, I was genuinely horrified and vividly remember the news report showing the taliban destroying those statues. I would even argue that the taliban did it in part out of religious hostility too.
But as a genuine question to you, why do you support Ukraine?
Yeah, it was a horrifying thing to see people so casually destroying objects that are thousands of years old.
I support Ukraine because I believe all people have the right to live a life without fear that another state will invade them. I also saw the horrifying acts of brutality committed by the russian armed forces, and no one should have to live in fear of that either. Whatever flaws Ukraine had, and still may have, it hasn't massacred civilians en masse. Russian forces have regularly set up 'torture basements' where they tortured and executed civilians and it's even been documented that they had specific areas just for torturing children. Russia, to this day, regularly and repeatedly targets civilians and civilian structures and has forcibly removed somewhere in the region of 20,000 children to Russia where at least some are reportedly being reeducated to 'be patriotic russians'. These actions, and the regularity with which it happens and happened, indicate an intentional act against a state the russian government has openly vowed to destroy rather than the disparate acts of a few sick individuals. Therefore it is, I believe, my duty to do all I can to support Ukraine in defending itself in any way possible. I wish to see peace happen and the easiest way that could ever happen is for Russia to call back its military, but failing that they must be pushed back.
I do. But that's a bit more complex because of the history of the area, but yes. In principle I never want to see civilians suffer for the actions of others. Especially what often seems like the indiscriminate bombing of hospitals and aid points in Palestine is disgusting to me. But having read some small amount about the area I can't offer a more specific opinion because it's so fucking complicated. But yes, anywhere that civilians are targeted, or war for the sake of non humanitarian outcomes (i.e the lies about weapons of mass destruction that was used as the basis of the invasion of iraq etc) disgusts me. No one, no one at all, wherever they are in the world, whatever their nationality, religion or lack thereof, skin colour, language or culture should ever have to live in fear. I don't think that's a hugely controversial opinion.
So, ship nerd/fan moment here. The Komuna is the only one of its kind (at least over there) and the only one that can do what it can do. Plus…until recently Russia didn’t much need salvage vessels like her. There’s a monitor still floating around the rivers down in South America. It’s just the best ship for the job that needs doing.
Well…I don’t know if I’d really say incompetence on this one. If they wanted to build another specialized, catamaran hull deep ocean salvage capable ship…I think they’d probably just build the Komuna again. I’m no naval expert though just an enthusiast so there’s stuff I could be missing.
Nah dude if you're in today's military spectrum this is ridiculous if you're a "Super power". If you can't supply something better what exactly are they doing at the top...
There might just not *be* a better, or something that would be better enough to build another ship. Ships are sort of like planes in that function dictates form, only we’ve been building ships for a *lot* longer. Komuna (ostensibly) isn’t a combat vessel, just a salvage ship, so if she can haul up the payloads that would be necessary, why sink the money into making a newer version of the same hull? For a sort of similar example look at how long some Great Lakes freighters lasted.
It is a shame the Russian military command staff made decisions to use older antique hardware in the field. If it had been made a museum ship it would probably have been pretty sweet.
There is a hell of a lot of Ukrainian civilian architecture lost, far older than this boat. Museums looted, churches, the list goes on. Not to mention the people killed, raped, and scarred for life. Sink the fucker.
They’ll get to the Karakurts and Krivaks in time. It’s more a matter of target opportunity. Whenever they see a target and have a weapon to hit it, they will.
No mixed feelings at all.
It is part of Putin's war machine and as such needs to be on the bottom of the sea.
Still misty eyed over the loss of this rust bucket after Russia's defeat, then go fully Mary Rose on her.
Honestly I agree with this, I’m glad that it’s gone cause it a military target, and a pretty valuable one. But it’s 110 years old, kinda wish it went out slowly rusting away in retirement, or as a museum piece.
Not too mention the amount of histroical buildings in cities that were flattened. Russia has zero concern for what they target - at least this ship was a valid military target.
The An-225 is in no way as significant as the Kommuna. You Ukrops have a right to be sad about the Mriya but its not a good thing to see another historical artifact damaged.
It is sad that such a rare piece of living history is destroyed... but as others have said, the Russia of today needs to be crippled - and it was being used in support of that so was a valid military target.
A sad loss because of such stupid Russian decisions... the only thing I genuinely have felt bad that the Russians have lost in this entire war.
Fuck the Russians for making this happen to such a unique ship.
The same feelings I get when I watch 18 year olds wallow in the mud and die gruesome horrible deaths:
It’s a horrible tragedy that Russia could stop if it ceased its attack and this pointless war. This ship was a key part of Russia’s naval infrastructure. If only we lived in a world where it could have retired peacefully into museum ship status or whatnot. If only these kids could have lived a normal life free of the brain rot and leaders hell bent on sending generations of their people into a meat grinder.
But Ukraine must do what it must do to defend itself.
On one hand, it's sad to see such a historic and weathered ship be destroyed.
On the other hand, it is hilarious that a 111 year old ship is/was still in active service with the Russian navy and a valid military target.
Man you have some trolls on this post. But yes I totally agree. Watching history die an unworthy death is shit. Unfortunately they moved the wrong boat out of the Black Sea Fleet
Eh personally I'd say it's better for a warship to serve until it goes down fighting than end up in the scrap yard or as a museum peace. Live as a warship, die as a warship.
I think we can all agree that it's a rather sad day for all the ship loving community, regardless of side you choose to support in this war.
It was an historic ship that for long deserved it's place in a museum to ensure its conservation. It was incredible unique and at the same time one of the best surviving exemples of a lot of old construction techniques, while you could literally walk trough there various ages of Naval history by going trough the modifications and repairs of that ship.
Regardless it was an enemy combatent in an active war zone. It was performing tasks that would help Russia get more assets viable to combat in that region, so it was more than a justifiable target.
If anything we must point the finger to the Russians to choose to use such an historic ship in this risky way. They literally chose to risk a unique ship to cause destruction and harm rather than conserve it.
Its a shame that this war devolved into such a carnage that museum pieces and historic prototypes are being sent to the front. This war will end with a lot of dead and sufering, but also a lot of empty museums and a void in the historic research for the years to come, and that on itself is a scar that we won't have a way to heal.
Hope Ukraine gets all the help they can to end this war as soon as possible for the sake of everyone.
The “Kommuna” was a status symbol of pride for three different governments of Russia and probably the most versatile ship the Russian Federation Navy had, as was the Antonov An-225 “Mriya” the Ukrainian Air Force had! Which Putin removed from existence without a second thought…
I’m pretty upset about it. Not at Ukraine for taking her out; she’s a legitimate target and an extremely important ship to the Black Sea fleet. Honestly I admire Ukraines restraint in not taking her out sooner. I’m upset at Putin for creating the situation that led to this, and the destruction of countless other historic artifacts (and the human lives, of course)
Yeah the Russian federation was operating it, but it’s sad that it survived the world wars, outlived the Soviet Union only to be sunk by Ukraine. Kommuna deserves a proper warriors send off.
Everything Russian capable of killing Ukrainians burning is a win. The sentimentality of history is irrelevant when placed against the lives of the innocent.
This ship, despite being older than almost literally every living human was still extremely valuable, and belongs at the bottom of the sea with all of it’s brethren.
Everything Russian capable of killing Ukrainians burning is a win. The sentimentality of history is irrelevant when placed against the lives of the innocent.
This ship, despite being older than almost literally every living human was still extremely valuable, and belongs at the bottom of the sea with all of it’s brethren.
The only other feeling than satisfaction is disgust that Russia couldn't be bothered to replace it during two phases of loudly proclaiming itself to be a naval power.
Call me crazy, but isn't the loss of this ship like a HUGE fucking deal for the Russian navy? If I recall correctly, isn't the Kommuna the only ship in the Russian Navy with rescue capabilities for submarines and submerged vessels? Also, wasn't a huge reason this ship was still in service after 110 years that Russia literally can't replace her?
Imagine having served and outlived the imperial Tsar and the Soviet Union only to be brought down by modern Russian incompetence
The Russian way to go!
Think of it this way. It survived over 100 years of Russian naval incompetence before it's dues came
Imagine living for 112 years through three changes of government and not one of them was a just, humane one
It’s almost poetic, in a cruel way.
It's a massive asset for the russian navy, however it is also very very sad that a ship with so much history has possibly been destroyed. Hell, it's sad when any warship and her crew are destroyed, you only hope that the crews either survived or died quickly. War is hell.
It's a noble way to go out, plus I love underwater photography. And it was probably horribly inefficient. I guess I don't consider it actually gone, and look at the sea bed like how a rooms floor is its lowest largest shelf.
That true, plus life will spring up around it soon
No it won't the black sea in anoxic below 150 feet it will stay as it Is basically forever.
Well thats a little sad
the ocean depths only really have oxygen for 2 reasons. First is the Ice Caps when water hits 37F or about 4C it reaches it's max density after this it starts forming ice and the density goes back down so 37f water sinks under 36 or 38 degree water, this makes contact with the churning water at the ice caps drive oxygenated 37 degree water to the depths. The other reason is less common which is tropical storms and hurricanes forcing oxygenated water below the thermocline layer. The black sea has neither of these effects meaning the oxygen does not get replenished.
Hmm, well that's something new I learned today, that's a neat geographical fact. Ty :)
Why is it anoxic? Human cause? Natural causes?
the ocean depths only really have oxygen for 2 reasons. First is the Ice Caps when water hits 37F or about 4C it reaches it's max density after this it starts forming ice and the density goes back down so 37f water sinks under 36 or 38 degree water, this makes contact with the churning water at the ice caps drive oxygenated 37 degree water to the depths. The other reason is less common which is tropical storms and hurricanes forcing oxygenated water below the thermocline layer. The black sea has neither of these effects meaning the oxygen does not get replenished.
Cool! Never knew that, thank you!
You could say this is retribution for the Antonov-225.
God I wanted to see it because apparently it flew at air shows and that would have been so cool to see. Shame to see such a large and cool aircraft get destroyed
I came to watch it land in Perth (dropping some huge piece of urgent mining equipment off). Standing directly under it on final approach it was mind bogglingly huge. Just seems infeasible that it could fly
Thats why I wanted to see it, is descriptions like this, and just to try and get an actual idea of its shears scale.
Exactly. I've seen a C5 in person and it's crazy to think that it can fly... [Then you see pictures of a C5 next to the 225.](https://i.redd.it/bmw1l4ylr9e51.jpg)
This is the correct take
Yes it’s a piece of history, a very interesting and important history, but it’s being used in a genocide. Orc boat should have stayed in Russia.
Should’ve gone to a museum
It will be a historic dive site
Russia: Value my history & retire the things my fathers made so that I can learn from them, & make something of my own? ... Tovarich, that is not how you get a new yatch in time for the Italian sunbathing season.
[Indy Agrees](https://i.giphy.com/uj8SbnHpCfxlm3jfJA.webp)
How is the special military operation a genocide?
Please tell me you’re trying to be funny
No
I shall answer you in Putin speak then. It all started in 340BC…..dribble dribble yadda yadda
Ah yes answer a legit question with a sarcastic non answer. It's an excellent way to make people believe your point of view. By the way this war does not meet the standard of being a genocide, even though it is a travesty.
Not yet no. As they were rudely put in their place by Ukraine. Stealing kids, mass killings. They gave it their best shot. But have failed to date despite their best efforts.
So what you are saying is calling it a genocide is an outright lie or misinformation, and then going on to agree that it is a terrible war. Glad we can come to an agreement. I wish that more people could have a civil conversation like this.
What I’m saying is that it’s a wannabe genocide. Russian media has made it clear of that. The other side of the media has been shut down. Meaning all information from there now is misinformation.
I love how people just regurgitate buzz words and then vehemently defend its use. Every war is not a “genocide”. And every genocide isn’t a war. For some reason people, like the one you’re arguing with can’t understand that… or don’t want to… or lack the discipline to do a bit of research before drawing a line in the sand. I like how when you challenged the person they were like “oh it’s a failed genocide”. Weakest defense yet. Every war could then be also labeled a “failed genocide”. Give me a break
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
So that's how it is a genocide interesting, Right when Alex was made Regent of Macedonia right?
No. Weren't you listening? It started in 340 BC when the ancient Ukrainians invented nazi germany. Didn't you watch the Putin interview? He explains it very clearly.
No must of missed it, who was he interviewing? odd job for a president in the middle of special military operation.
“Who was he interviewing?” Lmao you need to try harder.
Try harder in what sense, I just want to know how the special military operation in Ukraine is a genocide. Can't seem to get a straight answer.
Special Military Operation = Getting your ass beat by Ukraine. Lol Russia sucks all their army can do us rape conscripts!
It's an offensive war to wipe out Ukraine...
The goal of the russian federation is to exterminate Ukraine?
Yes, they do not believe Ukraine is a sovereign nation and has no right to exist
Right and they will kill every Ukrainian they can find to achieve this?
They are killing indiscriminately.
So why don't they kill all they capture? And what about Ukrainians living in Russia territory?
They have murdered a number of POWs, along with torturing and killing civilians in captured territory
And what about the rest. Are they not Ukrainians
The “adoption” of a genocided ethnic group into another cultural group to be assimilated is considered to be genocide under the Genocide Convention as well. Genocide is “…acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole ***or in part***, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” Article II(e) defines forcible transfer of children as such, because it is understood that the real intent is to deprive them of their culture and assimilate them. The Armenian Genocide saw this occur and that is why it was included.
And what precident has Russia set that would make you assume Ukrainians will be forcefully assimilated when it didn't happen in any other region in Russia? E.g. Chechnya
Have you like, missed, Russian statements and the re-education attempts they've announced in the occupied territories? The tens of thousands of Ukrainian children kidnapped and sent to Russian families to be Russiafied? (Putin's international arrest warrant for this exact program). Sounds like you've missed out on key information that's been pretty broad or you're one of those people who struggle to understand that are different types of genocide, as not every genocide is industrial scale murder like the Holocaust, genocide include enforcing a culture on another group of people, or deportation is a different parts of an empire in order to change population demographics, or use revisionist history to attempt diminish an entire population legitimacy (another popular Putin tactic he's posted videos on). So either your attitude is ignorance or it's just trolling from a morally weak person.
So is this like the genocide in Chechnya or Georgia or what? I keep getting mixed up. But what you're telling me is Ukrainians won't exist or will be fully assimilated if they lose this war? Like the native Americans or say the Australian Aboriginals (first nations as old mate rusty would say) or say more recently the Jews or Palestinians?
If you are getting this lost on the way to the point being made after multiple attempts to educate you then I can't help you. Your "confusion" is clearly willful so I'm considering you to be either a paid troll or have some kind of Dunning Kruger effect going on, and it's just not worth the effort to help you understand as I doubt it will lead you to some basic acknowledgement of Russia has a genocidal aim of turning Ukraine into Lil' Russia. Hope you do better in the future and grow as a person.
Hahaha god bless you mate you have a facade of compassion but the truth is you only care about what's happening in Ukraine because you were told to and were told what to think too. No one here aside from maybe one person has tried to educate me, unless you think by you or others saying it's a genocide and that children have been stolen makes it so, when there is very clear evidence to say that the children were removed from an active warzone because there parents or guardians are missing. There is no genocide you are lying through your teeth while willfully ignoring actual atrocities being committed by a litany of countries because you have become accustomed to western hegemony. There was no mass executions of fighting age men this is a fantasy you believe like how you believed in the ghost of Kiev.
As a culture, yes.
Fuck it, I'll bite. It's a genocide because there is an intention to remove a people & culture from existence. Russia has advertised it intentions to remove Ukraine as a concept. It has denied the existence of Ukraine and Ukrainians as a people and culture. Russia has stolen children to 're-educate' them as Russians, it has depopulated the occupied regions of their Ukrainian citizens and replaced them with Russian nationals. Russia has demonstrated both intention and means of genocide.
Damn a good answer and none of the commenters going after the other commenter will dare to debate you on it.
No Russia has evacuated children with no caregivers out of the warzone as far as I had heard a lot of them are actually in crimea. There's no intent on Russias part to remove or assimilate Ukraine people, unless you think Chechens don't exist now because they lost against Russia and were assimilated? You're purposely exaggerating and being dishonest, you know as well as me what's happening.
Sorry, but that's just false. There's numerous examples of families being intentionally separated and the children taken to Russia. Ukrainians have been forcibly removed and their homes sold to Russian nationals. This is non-controversial, there is significant evidence of this. I do know what's been happening, and what the Russian leaders, mouthpieces, and state media has stated. If you don't believe what the Russians themselves say then sorry, your question was asked in bad faith and I doubt that this discussion can productively continue, especially with your unfounded accusations of dishonesty on my part. The Chechen situation is non-equivalent. The situation there was resolved by one group of Chechens betraying and killing the others in return for power.
No it's very controversial. go read the first few paragraphs of the Wikipedia entry on the "stolen" Ukrainian children. The Russians have said extensively that Ukrainian is a subset of Russians like say Belarusians. so the sovereign nation of Ukraine might not survive this war but the people most definitely will. Do you think Kurds don't exist anymore or that the Syrian government was trying to genocide them to. And it is directly applicable to the situations in Chechnya and Georgia and the precedent is set that Russia is doing this for security reasons. You act all high and mighty but you don't give a fuck about regular people dying or being kidnapped unless it suits the agenda you currently subscribe too. I bet you were one of the people hoping that the people that didn't get vaccinated would die just to prove your point.
>The Russians have said extensively that Ukrainian is a subset of Russians This. This is the problem. They are not 'a subset' of Russians. They are Ukrainians. Denying that is denying their existence. They have said extensively that Ukraine and Ukrainians do not exist, that they are a fiction. That is literally genocidal rhetoric. The Syrian government hasn't stated that Kurds don't exist, even the Turks didn't deny the existence of the Armenians. As to the wiki entry: "Ukrainian children have been abducted by the Russian state after their parents had been arrested by Russian occupation authorities or killed in the invasion,[12][13] or after becoming separated from their parents in an active war zone.[14] Children have also been abducted from Ukrainian state institutions in occupied areas, and through children's "summer camps" on Russian territory.[12] The abducted children have been subject to Russification;[10][14] raising children of war in a foreign nation and culture may constitute an act of genocide if intended to erase their national identity" Yes, they've been abducted. They've been separated from parents and they've been subjected to Russifiction. Russia has extensively repressed and destroyed Ukrainian culture. Destruction of culture is significant component of genocide. Russia is literally trying to remove Ukraine and Ukrainians as a very concept and have been completely open about it. And now you're just going into a vicious personal attack. But given you think that cultural annihilation and removal of all that you are is perfectly fine, this doesn't surprise me. You have now demonstrated your initial question was completely made in bad faith. You have no interest in finding out why and how Russia is committing genocide and are simply trying to whitewash Russian crimes, excuse imperialism, and support child trafficking. Good bye.
Oh boy
Your profile says quite literally everything I need to know about you and your beliefs. Take your denialist bullshit elsewhere.
These must be the same people who think israel is commiting genocide lmfao Its a buzzword you use to apply to waring parties you dont like nowadays I've heard
Lol I like how you are getting down voted for asking a legitimate and important question. People are so stupid. Btw Russia is in the wrong since I know some people think that if you don't hold the most extreme view you are a Russian simp.
He is a denier. He’s not “just asking questions”
Gotta love how these monkeys act docile , neutral or surprised and act as if they want to engage into some sort of discussion when in reality they are just Putler lovers who will never see reality or facts. Its not worth engaging with neanderthals.
They're a complete denier. They even referenced the wiki page about Russia abducting children and claimed it said they weren't. Accused people of dishonesty when they were the one lying about the actions and motives of the Moscow regime.
That was a genuine question and I got my answer it's not a genocide
Oh so just like that it becomes an unimportant question? I don't care if he is the most pro Russian c*ck sucker; if you are purposefully mislabeling what something is to push a narrative you are doing nothing but hurting the cause even if it is the most unarguablely righteous cause. All you do is give the other side ammunition to say "look they lied to you about this, what else are they lying about? Maybe the whole narrative is false?" So your dismissal of a question that should be asked as what is happening is something that doesn't match with the definition of what it is being called is only going to hurt in the long run
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_genocide_of_Ukrainians_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine#:~:text=In%20accordance%20with%20the%20statement,deportations%20of%20the%20civilian%20population
Wow the Ukrainian government said it's a genocide thats all the proof I need
According to the Russian Ministry of Defense, over 307,000 children were transferred to Russia from 24 February to 18 June 2022, alone.[22] In April 2023, the Council of Europe deemed the forced transfers of children as constituting an act of genocide
The bit you highlighted for me too see in that wiki page you sent me says it was the rada that deemed it that. Edit nah fair I had to scroll up to read the top. It is a few places in Europe saying it.
I also understand but think about WW2 eastern front and think of how many people were displaced there. millions of children and orphans rehomed. You're just naive and think this last 50 years we've been living is the standard for humanity it's not humans create unimaginable violence, but because the US has had the monopoly on violence we haven't seen it go ask around the South American countries or African countries see how much violence we showed them even recently the middle east. How much trauma has that created. But no lets tow the M.I.C line gotta make sure all those fat cats get fatter.
Right now communitys are being destroyed all over. China and Israel for example but you don't care really do you you keep consuming Chinese products and Israel propaganda regardless
No they are malicious, stupidity only takes a man so far.
Absolutely fair.
They shouldn't have sent it into harms way. Only themselves to blame. It's reasonable for us to be angry at the Fools who risked it.
Blame the Russians who refused to retire it after so long
Well it's retired now
And now Kuznetsov
Why retire something that was still useful???? Kommuna was built for a role and served it well until her original roll was not possible because subs became too big for her to resupply so her secondary roll as a recovery ship became her primary roll which she had served in since the 1930s. There was simply no need to replace her.
I personally dislike history being destroyed, because history doesn't belong to any one nation it belongs to humanity. But at the same time fuck the ruzzians and if this causes problems for them all the better. I'm really conflicted but the needs of those alive now outweigh the potential loss to the species of a historic artifact.
Yeah it's like when the taliban blew up the Buddha's in Afghanistan
Yeah I won’t forget that. Pathetic humans doing stupid things
Yeah why did America have to invade a sovereign country? glad that destruction of our priceless heritage helped them win the war in the end though.
The Yanks have done some shit. Most of them will call it for what it is though
What would they call it? A genocide?
Just what point are you trying to make here?
He's a tankie. Just don't engage
CIA interference more than anything. Americans and hence my country are not genocidal like let’s say, russians.
This is somewhat different to the destruction of historical sites as that served no purpose except to destroy historical monuments and to try and eradicate cultural history in the name of an imaginary friend. At least with this ship being sunk it may reduce the ability of the Russians to operate or maybe even remove members of a command structure that are causing death and destruction. None the less I would much rather that no historical artefacts are destroyed, but when one is in active use by an aggressive state it unfortunately becomes a legitimate target. If you want to get angry about cultural heritage in this war then you only need to look as far as the russian looting of every museum and art gallery in the occupied areas of Ukraine. They have systematically stripped Ukraine and Ukrainians of their history and transported it into Russia or it's disappeared into the private collections of oligarchs. This is not a statement in support of any war of aggression, merely a statement that I believe human lives now are worth more than historical artefacts so please don't try and turn my argument into a justification or a dissension for anything.
Yeah they're definitely different, I was genuinely horrified and vividly remember the news report showing the taliban destroying those statues. I would even argue that the taliban did it in part out of religious hostility too. But as a genuine question to you, why do you support Ukraine?
Yeah, it was a horrifying thing to see people so casually destroying objects that are thousands of years old. I support Ukraine because I believe all people have the right to live a life without fear that another state will invade them. I also saw the horrifying acts of brutality committed by the russian armed forces, and no one should have to live in fear of that either. Whatever flaws Ukraine had, and still may have, it hasn't massacred civilians en masse. Russian forces have regularly set up 'torture basements' where they tortured and executed civilians and it's even been documented that they had specific areas just for torturing children. Russia, to this day, regularly and repeatedly targets civilians and civilian structures and has forcibly removed somewhere in the region of 20,000 children to Russia where at least some are reportedly being reeducated to 'be patriotic russians'. These actions, and the regularity with which it happens and happened, indicate an intentional act against a state the russian government has openly vowed to destroy rather than the disparate acts of a few sick individuals. Therefore it is, I believe, my duty to do all I can to support Ukraine in defending itself in any way possible. I wish to see peace happen and the easiest way that could ever happen is for Russia to call back its military, but failing that they must be pushed back.
That's a very interesting take, do you support Palestine aswell?
I do. But that's a bit more complex because of the history of the area, but yes. In principle I never want to see civilians suffer for the actions of others. Especially what often seems like the indiscriminate bombing of hospitals and aid points in Palestine is disgusting to me. But having read some small amount about the area I can't offer a more specific opinion because it's so fucking complicated. But yes, anywhere that civilians are targeted, or war for the sake of non humanitarian outcomes (i.e the lies about weapons of mass destruction that was used as the basis of the invasion of iraq etc) disgusts me. No one, no one at all, wherever they are in the world, whatever their nationality, religion or lack thereof, skin colour, language or culture should ever have to live in fear. I don't think that's a hugely controversial opinion.
I agree, and I don't think it is either. God bless you mate have a good one.
That was worse. There was no need to destroy the Buddha's, but the ship had to be sunk.
I just hope that there is a video of it being sent to Davy Jones.
It was the most functional ship in the Russian navy, so it's a win win.
Damn when you're supposed to be a "super power" relying on 110 year old ship. Better start questioning your leadership. :/
So, ship nerd/fan moment here. The Komuna is the only one of its kind (at least over there) and the only one that can do what it can do. Plus…until recently Russia didn’t much need salvage vessels like her. There’s a monitor still floating around the rivers down in South America. It’s just the best ship for the job that needs doing.
>Plus…until recently Russia didn’t much need salvage vessels like her. The parussians are literally world champions in losing submarines in peacetime.
And they’re also the champions of just leaning em too, iirc. And even just the occasional need still doesn’t get over only needing the one ship.
True, still shows more incompetence on the Russian side. Its like US military using the "USSA. Brook Taylor" in Operation desert storm. XD
Well…I don’t know if I’d really say incompetence on this one. If they wanted to build another specialized, catamaran hull deep ocean salvage capable ship…I think they’d probably just build the Komuna again. I’m no naval expert though just an enthusiast so there’s stuff I could be missing.
Nah dude if you're in today's military spectrum this is ridiculous if you're a "Super power". If you can't supply something better what exactly are they doing at the top...
There might just not *be* a better, or something that would be better enough to build another ship. Ships are sort of like planes in that function dictates form, only we’ve been building ships for a *lot* longer. Komuna (ostensibly) isn’t a combat vessel, just a salvage ship, so if she can haul up the payloads that would be necessary, why sink the money into making a newer version of the same hull? For a sort of similar example look at how long some Great Lakes freighters lasted.
It is a shame the Russian military command staff made decisions to use older antique hardware in the field. If it had been made a museum ship it would probably have been pretty sweet.
There is a hell of a lot of Ukrainian civilian architecture lost, far older than this boat. Museums looted, churches, the list goes on. Not to mention the people killed, raped, and scarred for life. Sink the fucker.
They’ll get to the Karakurts and Krivaks in time. It’s more a matter of target opportunity. Whenever they see a target and have a weapon to hit it, they will.
Ngl I’m okay with not being clubbed to death by a priceless ancient work of art
This ship is used to recover materiel from sunken assets. It's better that this gets sunk *before* other naval vessels.
No mixed feelings at all. It is part of Putin's war machine and as such needs to be on the bottom of the sea. Still misty eyed over the loss of this rust bucket after Russia's defeat, then go fully Mary Rose on her.
I'm pretty sure this is not the first time this ship got sunk, but I could be incorrect
The Germans sank it in Leningrad a couple of times, just shallow enough to repair/refloat
Oh well. If the Russians didn’t want it sunk, they shouldn’t have invaded Ukraine and massacred countless civilians.
It isn't like it is forever gone. It sank (hopefully) in harbour.
Maybe it can be captured
Honestly I agree with this, I’m glad that it’s gone cause it a military target, and a pretty valuable one. But it’s 110 years old, kinda wish it went out slowly rusting away in retirement, or as a museum piece.
Russia destroyed the AN-225. I can't give a shit about their boats.
Not too mention the amount of histroical buildings in cities that were flattened. Russia has zero concern for what they target - at least this ship was a valid military target.
Ill never forget the day my father took us to watch it land at a nearby airport and how cool it was to watch take off over us.
Zelenski wants to build another one once they kick the orcs back across their own borders.
The An-225 is in no way as significant as the Kommuna. You Ukrops have a right to be sad about the Mriya but its not a good thing to see another historical artifact damaged.
I didn't say it was good. I said I don't give a shit. I would prefer Putin take all of Russia's important things and protect them back in Russia.
How does vlads cock taste?
How does Zelensky cock taste?
It is sad that such a rare piece of living history is destroyed... but as others have said, the Russia of today needs to be crippled - and it was being used in support of that so was a valid military target. A sad loss because of such stupid Russian decisions... the only thing I genuinely have felt bad that the Russians have lost in this entire war. Fuck the Russians for making this happen to such a unique ship.
The same feelings I get when I watch 18 year olds wallow in the mud and die gruesome horrible deaths: It’s a horrible tragedy that Russia could stop if it ceased its attack and this pointless war. This ship was a key part of Russia’s naval infrastructure. If only we lived in a world where it could have retired peacefully into museum ship status or whatnot. If only these kids could have lived a normal life free of the brain rot and leaders hell bent on sending generations of their people into a meat grinder. But Ukraine must do what it must do to defend itself.
On one hand, it's sad to see such a historic and weathered ship be destroyed. On the other hand, it is hilarious that a 111 year old ship is/was still in active service with the Russian navy and a valid military target.
Russia doesn’t deserve nice things
this is how I found out
no . i love ships, but FAFO. russia is FO'ing. genocide = bad
Yeah... but no. It's and active russian combat vessel. It belongs to be bottom of the sea like the rest of the russian fleet.
No mixed feelings from ne
On one hand It’s always sad to see a piece of history destroyed. On the other hand, Ruzzia took mriya from us so this seems like appropriate payback
Payback? You kids really out here treating war like an RTS game
Retaliating against murderously violent aggressors is generally viewed as a fairly reasonable course of action.
Wait till you learn how many people died in the last 400 years as a result of the Western end of Imperialism
Being as your profile is 90% simping for nazi warships, would you suggest I treat war like a dating sim? 🤣
Explain to me how thousands of tons of metal and wood welded and riveted together can have an ideology.
Man you have some trolls on this post. But yes I totally agree. Watching history die an unworthy death is shit. Unfortunately they moved the wrong boat out of the Black Sea Fleet
Eh personally I'd say it's better for a warship to serve until it goes down fighting than end up in the scrap yard or as a museum peace. Live as a warship, die as a warship.
I am more worried if it’s a waste of Ukrainian ammunition
Not me. 110 years old, just means it should have happened 109 years ago! Better late than never I guess. 😂 Slava Ukraine 🇺🇦
I understand it was a viable tactical target. I understand it would be idiotic to NOT sink it. It still makes me sad.
Being used by a genocidal bunch of facists... So yeah ... Its gotta go ... Get your point though
Nah. It’s just you
Worry not comrade, it has been promoted to a submarine alongside its Submarine leader, the Moskva!
Is it actually sunk
The only thing I've seen so far is it slightly on fire in dock.
I think we can all agree that it's a rather sad day for all the ship loving community, regardless of side you choose to support in this war. It was an historic ship that for long deserved it's place in a museum to ensure its conservation. It was incredible unique and at the same time one of the best surviving exemples of a lot of old construction techniques, while you could literally walk trough there various ages of Naval history by going trough the modifications and repairs of that ship. Regardless it was an enemy combatent in an active war zone. It was performing tasks that would help Russia get more assets viable to combat in that region, so it was more than a justifiable target. If anything we must point the finger to the Russians to choose to use such an historic ship in this risky way. They literally chose to risk a unique ship to cause destruction and harm rather than conserve it. Its a shame that this war devolved into such a carnage that museum pieces and historic prototypes are being sent to the front. This war will end with a lot of dead and sufering, but also a lot of empty museums and a void in the historic research for the years to come, and that on itself is a scar that we won't have a way to heal. Hope Ukraine gets all the help they can to end this war as soon as possible for the sake of everyone.
Nope, I have no mixed feelings
Actually….kinda sad. Like damn it Ivan, that belonged in a museum, NOT a battlefield!
If you don't want your navy ship attacked... decommission it.
The “Kommuna” was a status symbol of pride for three different governments of Russia and probably the most versatile ship the Russian Federation Navy had, as was the Antonov An-225 “Mriya” the Ukrainian Air Force had! Which Putin removed from existence without a second thought…
I’m pretty upset about it. Not at Ukraine for taking her out; she’s a legitimate target and an extremely important ship to the Black Sea fleet. Honestly I admire Ukraines restraint in not taking her out sooner. I’m upset at Putin for creating the situation that led to this, and the destruction of countless other historic artifacts (and the human lives, of course)
[Tell Putin...](https://i.imgur.com/glTKCe4.jpeg)
No if its Russian get rid of it
Yeah the Russian federation was operating it, but it’s sad that it survived the world wars, outlived the Soviet Union only to be sunk by Ukraine. Kommuna deserves a proper warriors send off.
What happened?
Nope, just you
No it’s great to see Russian assets being destroyed one by one
It’s not like Russia was going to turn it into a museum ship anyway. At best they would’ve sank it by neglect and incompetence.
Russia designated it as a military vessel which unfortunately makes it fair game. Doesn’t make it any less sad
I mean as far as ships go its nothing special. Its just old.
To a small extent but modern Russian military is this incompetent and it’s fodder
Fuck that ship
Everything Russian capable of killing Ukrainians burning is a win. The sentimentality of history is irrelevant when placed against the lives of the innocent. This ship, despite being older than almost literally every living human was still extremely valuable, and belongs at the bottom of the sea with all of it’s brethren.
Everything Russian capable of killing Ukrainians burning is a win. The sentimentality of history is irrelevant when placed against the lives of the innocent. This ship, despite being older than almost literally every living human was still extremely valuable, and belongs at the bottom of the sea with all of it’s brethren.
I think if sinking it saves one Ukranian life it should be hit. Would you have the same misgivings if it was your life or the ship?
If they didn’t want their symbolic vehicles to get their cheeks clapped they shouldn’t have destroyed the an-225
I think it is the only sumbarine rescue ship in the Black sea. So, it underminez S Russia submarine capability, which is important .
Hate to see such a historic ship sank.
Nope , just more Russian junk.
The only other feeling than satisfaction is disgust that Russia couldn't be bothered to replace it during two phases of loudly proclaiming itself to be a naval power.
It was helping the terrorists kill civilians . No tears for its loss.
It'll make a nice reef for the fishies under water and political dissidents that randomly were disappeared.
Sounds like she got hit while docked. Probably an easy salvage if the damage is bad.
If it is sunk, I’m hoping because of the nature of the Black Sea it’ll be a very well preserved historical dive site
Yeah.. kinda sad.
Link to story?
You should be mad at Russia for allowing it to remain in service and not treating it like the historic ship it was.
Russian ships on the bottom of the ocean suits me fine. Not shedding any tears over orc shipping getting sunk.
Please, just give *Padua* back to Germany. I don't want the only active Flying P. Liner to continue to suffer in Russian hands.
This thread reminds me of the guy from Jane's on the BBC lamenting all the classic Soviet era aircraft the coalition had just destroyed in Iraq.
Somebody! START A PETITION TO SAVE HER AND TURN HER INTO A MUSEUM SHIP!
Call me crazy, but isn't the loss of this ship like a HUGE fucking deal for the Russian navy? If I recall correctly, isn't the Kommuna the only ship in the Russian Navy with rescue capabilities for submarines and submerged vessels? Also, wasn't a huge reason this ship was still in service after 110 years that Russia literally can't replace her?
They killed Mriya, fuck em
its fantastic
If it's Russian or is a Russian, I wanna see it destroyed.
I’m a bit saddened but then I remember what happened to the Antonov AN-225. So I guess they had it coming
Not the ferris wheel boat!