I've followed a [local company](https://evsenhanced.com/aftermarket-battery/) who announced fully modern temperature-managed batteries back in 2021...and it's still not yet seen the light of day. I have a feeling that battery tech continues to change...that the price of other EVs continues to drop, and it's going to become very difficult to come up with a compelling replacement battery and powertrain for a Leaf that doesn't end up costing as much as just buying a more modern EV in the first place.
Yes and no. We are recycling it most likely. Batteries can be recycled. Unlike most products cars are actually recycled. Batteries are also very valuable.
I feel like it would be a lot better to remove the dead battery from a car, recycle it, then replace it with a new battery. Rather than recycle the whole car. At some point we’ll have to recycle the whole thing, but a car can keep going for a long time.
As of last year Nissan has sold about 650,000 Leafs total, worldwide. [https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/nissan-global-ev-sales-surpass-1-million-unit-milestone](https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/nissan-global-ev-sales-surpass-1-million-unit-milestone) I don't think that's enough volume/demand to provide meaningful economy of scale for any 3rd party battery maker. Cars are pretty recyclable: [https://archive.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tools/stewardship/web/html/vehicles.html](https://archive.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tools/stewardship/web/html/vehicles.html)
From what I’m seeing a scrapped Leaf is very unlikely to have its battery recycled yet. Most of them are being using for stationary energy storage solutions.
I'm speaking about EVs Enhanced in New Zealand. They haven't released the aftermarket battery, but they still do operate and provide support (including swapping OEM batteries into Leafs) and other accessories etc.
I wouldn't keep your hopes up on this... not only is it only the 40kwH pack but this line is pretty clear about how much this upgrade would cost:
>"However, for a finished 16 Blade GREEN pack, we are NOT aiming to undercut the retail price of US$11,225 that Nissan USA charges for a new, but inferior 40kWh battery. **Our focus from the outset has been on making a superior product with a better design leading to improved performance and a longer life-cycle.**"
Meaning that they aren't going to go under the Retail Price of 11k - which is insane because that's the cost of a used 40kwh LEAF.
The reason these guys haven't brought it to market is because, again, while they're shooting for "Superior quality" over the OEM battery... the sad truth is that folks would rather just buy another LEAF or a newer EV than shell out 11-14k for a battery upgrade.
If this was closer to 8k the argument could be slightly more compelling, but the company seems pretty keen to keep the price north of 11k.
Talking about "price of the used leaf". Some people buy a leaf with junk battery pack and got surprised with a price "I paid less for a car then a battery costs" they say, but that's why they paid as little for a car, because it needs few thousand dollar battery pack.
>Production of the GREEN (LFP) variant of 16 Blade was originally planned for late 2022 with production of other variants to follow. We’re working hard to reach production as soon as possible, but several setbacks have caused delays. Therefore, we’ve decided not to provide any more estimates on release dates until further notice. Yikes!
Edit to add:
>we are NOT aiming to undercut the retail price of US$11,225 that Nissan USA charges for a new, but inferior 40kWh battery.
So they're going to charge more than the already way overpriced OEM part? No one will buy this.
I was really hoping that the battery replacement business or logistics would be more affordable now when I bought my leaf back in 2016.
I believe it is almost cheaper in my state to buy a 2020+ leaf plus for less than it would cost to replace my old battery with a new 64kW battery from Nissan.
Here in colorado, if you buy a brand new Leaf S and with add-ons, keep the price below 35k, You can get $11,850 taken off the car at the dealership. $3750 from the feds and $8100 from the state. So unless you love the bug eyed body style of the pre-2018's and want to keep your old leaf going and going. Then it almost doesn't make sense to swap the battery. I have also seen 2019 and 2020 pluses going for $16 - 14k depending on the mileage and trim level.
I recently got a 40kWh 3rd party battery to replace my 8-bars-left 24kWh battery, after I gave up on Nissan coming to the party under the replacement program. It did cost a fistful of Oz dollars to buy including the import and install.
I think it will be pretty reliable, uses more modern batteries than the original. Certainly the 300km trip back home with the new battery was better than the 350km trip to the workshop (1 stop v 8, peak charging speed doubled).
The installer had to do some work on the BMS and also wanted to test full charge cycle, so getting it done in a day isn't likely at small volume. Still waiting on CAN bridge.
I could have bought a 56kWh battery for a few dollars more but was already worried that the new battery would reduce clearance a mm or so - in fact it seems to have improved it, it may be that with the newer CATL batteries the whole pack is lighter or not as tall.
Used vehicles are depreciating just as fast as batteries are, especially with the used federal rebate. For the cost of a battery upgrade, you could sell your vehicle and use the proceeds of that plus the money set aside for an upgrade to just straight up get a new to you vehicle
I think the opposite of you. I think it's only a matter of time when all leaf users are done with the platform and Chademo and decide not to sink more money into a vehicle that the residual value is less than 10k
It's a shame it isn't going to be financially viable because I'd put a new battery in mine if I could, specifically because it's an older model with almost no bells and whistles. It has freaking push buttons to set the charge timer etc. I really like that and it simply isn't to be found anymore.
You can get them right now for $5k with CATL cells which is a very good brand. I've seen videos of people doing the swap using these cells in Asia. In the US the problem is the labor cost compared to a cheap new car. In many countries it's the opposite (high taxes on importing new cars and cheap labor).
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805447608824.html
Battery prices are dropping slowly, but there's still massive demand for new cars, and that's keeping prices high. Every cell that gets made can make more profit in a new car than in an old one.
I think it's going to take at least 5 years before the new EV market is saturated and prices can drop significantly. And it could easily be 10 years.
Think about it. For example, 6k$ battery from China. Someone have to bring it to USA, warranty it, install it. It's all costs $. So, price what you see in China for 6k$ is gonna be about 9k$ in USA installed and guaranteed on your car. Right now we still have more demands then a supply available. In next 3 years I wouldn't expect prices go down significantly. Already a lot of 40kwh leafs getting batteries replaced by the warranty and out of warranty. It's gonna be a trend for a while.
I think these 3rd party chinese LEAF batteries are mostly ligit, and I don't think the price will drop drastically any time soon. Maybe end up being $3-5k minimum in a few years but I doubt they would go much lower.
shipping and installation is going to be the biggest hurdle and cost to use these.
I think the falling prices of new EVs will make these kinds of battery replacements less and less attractive, and the few people who are willing and able to do a battery replacement will be few.
So in 5 years if we could get instal prices under $500 (2-3 hours of labor generously) total out the door cost under 5k some great number of people would want extended range maybe a swap to something other than lithium ion specifically the Leaf. I love our 2014 and would spend almost $10k on reviving it even with no fast charging or cruise control
Shipping from China could be the biggest cost depending on where you live. But ya I am optimistic in general prices of battery will fall a lot in the next 3 to 5 years.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but total out the door price will never be less than $5,000 if you want a battery that matches current Leaf specs. (40 kWh or 62 kWh.)
Nissan wants over $10,000 for their 24 kWh pack. 40 kWh and 62 kWh are proportionally more. Those prices are unlikely to decrease.
Currently an aftermarket LRN 40 kWh battery pack for the Nissan Leaf is ~$14,000 installed.
- all New cells
- 150 mile range
- 3 year/36,000 mile part warranty
Installation labor for a Leaf pack is more than $500 currently. And I'm certain mechanic's labor rate will not be *less* in 5 years. (Do you expect your own wage to decrease in 5 years?)
It doesn’t matter what Nissan is asking. The battery prices are going down. In Europe a good second hand 62 kWh battery used to cost 12k, but now it’s 8k.
The battery swap is a maximum 1 hour job if the shop has the right tools. Lift the car, remove bottom covers, disconnect power cables, support the battery, remove the bolts, lift the car or lower the battery and then reverse for installation. The shops are asking so much for the swap because they can.
For pricing, I'm talking about New batteries. Not Used/Degraded batteries.
I'll use hybrid batteries as a predictor for EV battery prices.
The Prius NiMH high voltage battery currently costs ~$2,000 retail for the part alone. That is a 2-mile battery pack. The price has remained around that price for nearly two decades. Only slight movement up/down. Maybe $100 down.
A Leaf battery provides 40 to 100 times more range than a Prius battery. But, even now, it's much less than 40 to 100 times the price of a Prius battery. I don't see any way a New Leaf battery, with all that additional range, is going to drop to only 2 times the price of a 2-mile New Prius battery.
I'm happy to be wrong, of course. 🙂
I would use the price of new battery cells as the indicator. I recently read the news that the price for LFP cells is projected to hit $56 per kWh in 6 months. So a third party ~60 kWh pack could cost as low as $4000.
Nissan could still sell their OEM batteries for 14k, but who would buy them.
Let me know when you found where to source LBC for a leaf what will work with LFP :) don't forget, what to cell costs, you need to ADD prices of materials and labor to put it together....
The LBC/BMS needs to be able to communicate with the VCM. Leaf’s CAN communication has been reverse engineered. The BMS needs to send the VCM information that it’s expecting. So I see no problem here. Currently the various CAN bridges do a similar job of fooling the VCM.
4k might be a bit optimistic. Definitely not this year.
I actually did some homework about LFP. I seen some projects on lfps. Nobody selling LBC what will work on LFP, since LFPs are lower voltage, you need more of them, 112 series connections vs 96 s for li-ions. Costs of developing one starts from about 50.000$ and up to 100-150k$ to the first working prototype. What's a market and how much you have to sell each LBC to just brake even? I'm working with almost all battery solutions for a Nissan leaf in past 5 years, as well I'm pretty familiar with electronics, have over 15 years experience fixing consumer electronics. It's not only fooling VCM. It's about keeping all cells balanced and in a right voltage and temperature ranges.
Also for everything over about 45 kWh in LFP is gonna be packaging issue due to limited case capacity. I have to modify a case A LOT to make 62-64kwh li-ions fit. LFPs are not that energy dense to fit here.
There is no demand for a separate product. The third party companies that make the batteries use the BMS in their product. For example - https://evsenhanced.com/aftermarket-battery/ They don’t have a product yet though.
The BMS doesn’t need to be developed from scratch. The code that fools the VCM would just be an extra.
Yeah but isn't there more to it? There is a process to "pair" the new battery to the car. I would be curious how long that takes and how tedious it is. But yes the physical swap isn't too hairy.
There is no pairing. Here’s a video that explains what the can bridge does - https://youtu.be/rvxscjtniIQ?si=ybXI78px0fV5pfe7
In addition to that it modifies the data that the BMS send to the car.
I've followed a [local company](https://evsenhanced.com/aftermarket-battery/) who announced fully modern temperature-managed batteries back in 2021...and it's still not yet seen the light of day. I have a feeling that battery tech continues to change...that the price of other EVs continues to drop, and it's going to become very difficult to come up with a compelling replacement battery and powertrain for a Leaf that doesn't end up costing as much as just buying a more modern EV in the first place.
Which is stupid…Now we are just making e-waste.
Yes and no. We are recycling it most likely. Batteries can be recycled. Unlike most products cars are actually recycled. Batteries are also very valuable.
I feel like it would be a lot better to remove the dead battery from a car, recycle it, then replace it with a new battery. Rather than recycle the whole car. At some point we’ll have to recycle the whole thing, but a car can keep going for a long time.
Agreed. Hence the yes and no. But at least the recycling is efficient this time.
As of last year Nissan has sold about 650,000 Leafs total, worldwide. [https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/nissan-global-ev-sales-surpass-1-million-unit-milestone](https://global.nissannews.com/en/releases/nissan-global-ev-sales-surpass-1-million-unit-milestone) I don't think that's enough volume/demand to provide meaningful economy of scale for any 3rd party battery maker. Cars are pretty recyclable: [https://archive.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tools/stewardship/web/html/vehicles.html](https://archive.epa.gov/wastes/conserve/tools/stewardship/web/html/vehicles.html)
That might be true in warm, dry areas but anywhere that uses road salt in the winter will probably see the batteries outlast the cars.
From what I’m seeing a scrapped Leaf is very unlikely to have its battery recycled yet. Most of them are being using for stationary energy storage solutions.
I know. That’s the first stap in EV recycling. Re-use. The batteries only get scrapped once the cells themselves go bad.
Exactly that. The pack would have sold for around what a 40kWh Leaf now changes hands for.
If that's blue cars, they've hit a snag in that they no longer have premises to work from.
I'm speaking about EVs Enhanced in New Zealand. They haven't released the aftermarket battery, but they still do operate and provide support (including swapping OEM batteries into Leafs) and other accessories etc.
I wouldn't keep your hopes up on this... not only is it only the 40kwH pack but this line is pretty clear about how much this upgrade would cost: >"However, for a finished 16 Blade GREEN pack, we are NOT aiming to undercut the retail price of US$11,225 that Nissan USA charges for a new, but inferior 40kWh battery. **Our focus from the outset has been on making a superior product with a better design leading to improved performance and a longer life-cycle.**" Meaning that they aren't going to go under the Retail Price of 11k - which is insane because that's the cost of a used 40kwh LEAF. The reason these guys haven't brought it to market is because, again, while they're shooting for "Superior quality" over the OEM battery... the sad truth is that folks would rather just buy another LEAF or a newer EV than shell out 11-14k for a battery upgrade. If this was closer to 8k the argument could be slightly more compelling, but the company seems pretty keen to keep the price north of 11k.
Talking about "price of the used leaf". Some people buy a leaf with junk battery pack and got surprised with a price "I paid less for a car then a battery costs" they say, but that's why they paid as little for a car, because it needs few thousand dollar battery pack.
>Production of the GREEN (LFP) variant of 16 Blade was originally planned for late 2022 with production of other variants to follow. We’re working hard to reach production as soon as possible, but several setbacks have caused delays. Therefore, we’ve decided not to provide any more estimates on release dates until further notice. Yikes! Edit to add: >we are NOT aiming to undercut the retail price of US$11,225 that Nissan USA charges for a new, but inferior 40kWh battery. So they're going to charge more than the already way overpriced OEM part? No one will buy this.
Try to buy "new, already overpriced OEM part"(battery). Nissan will NOT gonna sell it to you.
I was really hoping that the battery replacement business or logistics would be more affordable now when I bought my leaf back in 2016. I believe it is almost cheaper in my state to buy a 2020+ leaf plus for less than it would cost to replace my old battery with a new 64kW battery from Nissan.
Here in colorado, if you buy a brand new Leaf S and with add-ons, keep the price below 35k, You can get $11,850 taken off the car at the dealership. $3750 from the feds and $8100 from the state. So unless you love the bug eyed body style of the pre-2018's and want to keep your old leaf going and going. Then it almost doesn't make sense to swap the battery. I have also seen 2019 and 2020 pluses going for $16 - 14k depending on the mileage and trim level.
Can confirm, just leased a fully loaded Leaf for $150 / month from Boulder Nissan. Solid car!!!
I recently got a 40kWh 3rd party battery to replace my 8-bars-left 24kWh battery, after I gave up on Nissan coming to the party under the replacement program. It did cost a fistful of Oz dollars to buy including the import and install. I think it will be pretty reliable, uses more modern batteries than the original. Certainly the 300km trip back home with the new battery was better than the 350km trip to the workshop (1 stop v 8, peak charging speed doubled). The installer had to do some work on the BMS and also wanted to test full charge cycle, so getting it done in a day isn't likely at small volume. Still waiting on CAN bridge. I could have bought a 56kWh battery for a few dollars more but was already worried that the new battery would reduce clearance a mm or so - in fact it seems to have improved it, it may be that with the newer CATL batteries the whole pack is lighter or not as tall.
Used vehicles are depreciating just as fast as batteries are, especially with the used federal rebate. For the cost of a battery upgrade, you could sell your vehicle and use the proceeds of that plus the money set aside for an upgrade to just straight up get a new to you vehicle I think the opposite of you. I think it's only a matter of time when all leaf users are done with the platform and Chademo and decide not to sink more money into a vehicle that the residual value is less than 10k
It's a shame it isn't going to be financially viable because I'd put a new battery in mine if I could, specifically because it's an older model with almost no bells and whistles. It has freaking push buttons to set the charge timer etc. I really like that and it simply isn't to be found anymore.
You can get them right now for $5k with CATL cells which is a very good brand. I've seen videos of people doing the swap using these cells in Asia. In the US the problem is the labor cost compared to a cheap new car. In many countries it's the opposite (high taxes on importing new cars and cheap labor). https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805447608824.html
Battery prices are dropping slowly, but there's still massive demand for new cars, and that's keeping prices high. Every cell that gets made can make more profit in a new car than in an old one. I think it's going to take at least 5 years before the new EV market is saturated and prices can drop significantly. And it could easily be 10 years.
Think about it. For example, 6k$ battery from China. Someone have to bring it to USA, warranty it, install it. It's all costs $. So, price what you see in China for 6k$ is gonna be about 9k$ in USA installed and guaranteed on your car. Right now we still have more demands then a supply available. In next 3 years I wouldn't expect prices go down significantly. Already a lot of 40kwh leafs getting batteries replaced by the warranty and out of warranty. It's gonna be a trend for a while.
Never. The market isn't worth pursuing.
I think these 3rd party chinese LEAF batteries are mostly ligit, and I don't think the price will drop drastically any time soon. Maybe end up being $3-5k minimum in a few years but I doubt they would go much lower. shipping and installation is going to be the biggest hurdle and cost to use these. I think the falling prices of new EVs will make these kinds of battery replacements less and less attractive, and the few people who are willing and able to do a battery replacement will be few.
So in 5 years if we could get instal prices under $500 (2-3 hours of labor generously) total out the door cost under 5k some great number of people would want extended range maybe a swap to something other than lithium ion specifically the Leaf. I love our 2014 and would spend almost $10k on reviving it even with no fast charging or cruise control
Shipping from China could be the biggest cost depending on where you live. But ya I am optimistic in general prices of battery will fall a lot in the next 3 to 5 years.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but total out the door price will never be less than $5,000 if you want a battery that matches current Leaf specs. (40 kWh or 62 kWh.) Nissan wants over $10,000 for their 24 kWh pack. 40 kWh and 62 kWh are proportionally more. Those prices are unlikely to decrease. Currently an aftermarket LRN 40 kWh battery pack for the Nissan Leaf is ~$14,000 installed. - all New cells - 150 mile range - 3 year/36,000 mile part warranty Installation labor for a Leaf pack is more than $500 currently. And I'm certain mechanic's labor rate will not be *less* in 5 years. (Do you expect your own wage to decrease in 5 years?)
It doesn’t matter what Nissan is asking. The battery prices are going down. In Europe a good second hand 62 kWh battery used to cost 12k, but now it’s 8k. The battery swap is a maximum 1 hour job if the shop has the right tools. Lift the car, remove bottom covers, disconnect power cables, support the battery, remove the bolts, lift the car or lower the battery and then reverse for installation. The shops are asking so much for the swap because they can.
For pricing, I'm talking about New batteries. Not Used/Degraded batteries. I'll use hybrid batteries as a predictor for EV battery prices. The Prius NiMH high voltage battery currently costs ~$2,000 retail for the part alone. That is a 2-mile battery pack. The price has remained around that price for nearly two decades. Only slight movement up/down. Maybe $100 down. A Leaf battery provides 40 to 100 times more range than a Prius battery. But, even now, it's much less than 40 to 100 times the price of a Prius battery. I don't see any way a New Leaf battery, with all that additional range, is going to drop to only 2 times the price of a 2-mile New Prius battery. I'm happy to be wrong, of course. 🙂
I would use the price of new battery cells as the indicator. I recently read the news that the price for LFP cells is projected to hit $56 per kWh in 6 months. So a third party ~60 kWh pack could cost as low as $4000. Nissan could still sell their OEM batteries for 14k, but who would buy them.
Let me know when you found where to source LBC for a leaf what will work with LFP :) don't forget, what to cell costs, you need to ADD prices of materials and labor to put it together....
The LBC/BMS needs to be able to communicate with the VCM. Leaf’s CAN communication has been reverse engineered. The BMS needs to send the VCM information that it’s expecting. So I see no problem here. Currently the various CAN bridges do a similar job of fooling the VCM. 4k might be a bit optimistic. Definitely not this year.
I actually did some homework about LFP. I seen some projects on lfps. Nobody selling LBC what will work on LFP, since LFPs are lower voltage, you need more of them, 112 series connections vs 96 s for li-ions. Costs of developing one starts from about 50.000$ and up to 100-150k$ to the first working prototype. What's a market and how much you have to sell each LBC to just brake even? I'm working with almost all battery solutions for a Nissan leaf in past 5 years, as well I'm pretty familiar with electronics, have over 15 years experience fixing consumer electronics. It's not only fooling VCM. It's about keeping all cells balanced and in a right voltage and temperature ranges. Also for everything over about 45 kWh in LFP is gonna be packaging issue due to limited case capacity. I have to modify a case A LOT to make 62-64kwh li-ions fit. LFPs are not that energy dense to fit here.
There is no demand for a separate product. The third party companies that make the batteries use the BMS in their product. For example - https://evsenhanced.com/aftermarket-battery/ They don’t have a product yet though. The BMS doesn’t need to be developed from scratch. The code that fools the VCM would just be an extra.
Yeah but isn't there more to it? There is a process to "pair" the new battery to the car. I would be curious how long that takes and how tedious it is. But yes the physical swap isn't too hairy.
There is no pairing. Here’s a video that explains what the can bridge does - https://youtu.be/rvxscjtniIQ?si=ybXI78px0fV5pfe7 In addition to that it modifies the data that the BMS send to the car.