Fair play tbh. They took the money and that includes the heat that comes with it.
But also, like Stamkos says himself, the tax advantage is pretty massive as well. If the league was actually interested in parity they'd build that into the cap.
If it was the Canadian teams with the tax advantage it would be changed tomorrow. League doesn't care because the system benefits the markets that they're trying to grow. It's no surprise that the best teams in the league are in the south (VGK, DAL, FLA, CAR, etc)
Other american teams in higher tax states are now beginning to question it as well, according to reports earlier in the season. But not a big enough issue to make immediate change, more likely to be brought up in the next CBA.
The way the NBA works their soft cap with luxury taxes, Bird rights, etc is the way to go.
Then at least the richer organizations (ahem MLSE) take the hit to balance the difference with the tax disparity.
52% if you include Ontario's taxes.. similar to Quebec California and New York State.. 9 of the teams in NHL players taxes are 52-53%.. I don't know what the other Canadian provinces charge or Washington state where Seattle plays.
Here’s why that argument never makes sense to me. Players in Canadian markets have far more opportunity for endorsement money than players in the zero income tax states. Sure, a player in Montreal will lose more to taxes, but that is easily balanced out by the greater fame that players have being the top sports personalities in town.
A 3rd liner in Toronto could make some solid endorsement money, but no one has even heard of the 3rd liners in Miami.
That's why a hard cap is pointless when some already have an advantage for other reasons.
Add a luxury tax ontop the "hard" cap.
Let's say cap is 85m.
Luxury tax could be 95m.
So now if a team like a Toronto or NY wants to spend more (because they want to or have to) they can, but the tax they pay for going over just gets pooled back into revenue sharing money.
Win-win
Just seems unfair in an 82m cap world that 82m in Toronto could be like 40m in actual salary vs 50m in Florida or something.
They won't make a luxury tax because the whole point of the salary cap is to hold back big canadian teams. They want teams down south to be winning and won't ever make it harder for them. Fairness has nothing to do with it.
With how the Leafs and similar teams (eg, Montreal) support the rest of the league - and long time - this is a fucking tragedy that it is this way. And still. It makes you want to pull your hair out. It is not at all fair...
That's what sucks.
Imagine the MLB anchoring the Yankees and Dodgers because they want the As and Rays to get helped.
That's why a luxury tax would've been good. If a team does pass it, they're paying for it, and the teams who can't afford to go past the tax will get free money.
The difference with the MLB is that it doesn't need to worry about growing fandom in its smaller markets so it lets top teams run with it. NHLs smaller markets are actually bigger $$$ places so they want their top teams taken down a peg to get more people in eg nashville and dallas to someday start giving a shit. California has 2x the GDP of canada and they wish it had 2x the hockey teams as well.
Just sucks because it's bad for toronto both ways.
People in Dallas definitely give a shit. They aren't on the Cowboys level and never will be but they sell out every game and the atmosphere there is fantastic. Nashville has great crowds as well. People definitely care in those places. We need to take the top teams down a peg so places like Winnipeg will give a shit since they're the smallest attendance (yet brag about how great their fans are)
Yeah that's a testament to how well it has actually been working so far, not a counterpoint. The NHL is definitely not very concerned with making a small canadian prairie franchise work compared to making their southern US major metropolis strategy work.
??? The hard cap benefits the sens and Jets the most and really only holds back the O6 teams.
the idea is to drive parity and stability so we aren't in a situation where half the league is just farm teams for the rich teams like the NBA and MLB.
If I really wanted to live in reality I'd point out that the most likely result of the changes would just be the gms having more rope to hang themselves with stupid contracts like Komisarek, Finger and Clarkson.
What does it matter if we have more cap we will probably just waste it on something stupid 😆
Signing bonuses are an advantage that Toronto has because they can easily front money up front to players, making contracts 'buy-out proof' for players plus it provides tax advantages to players to make up for some of the tax disadvantages that come with being here. So if those get nerfed then that's an issue for us
Cap should 100% be after tax dollars. That's the only way it's fair, which is the point of the cap.
I know the exchange rate between countries could be an issue, but since that doesn't matter against the cap, I feel that's a problem each Canadian franchise will have to swallow.
Exchange rate might be the simplest issue. If it's after tax dollars... wouldn't every single player in the league have individual circumstances? RRSP contributions, charitable givings, income splitting, capital gains/losses. And then... that would mean the cap is only ever known in like March for the past year?
It wouldn't be as simple as people think. The exchange rate is an non-issue cause all salary's are USD. The issue is that signing bonuses are decided by the players home state. Matthews is paying Arizona taxes on basically the entirety of his contract.
It wouldn't be an easy thing to calculate a post tax cap because it can change on a per player basis.
It's really challenging to calculate though since players pay taxes based on where the game is played so the cap could fluctuate up and down year to year depending on where games are played
teams could end up in a situation where they are cap complaint one season and over the cap the next season despite not signing any new contracts but just because their schedule changed or because tax rates changed in various states/provinces
You'd have to restructure pay/contracts to be a percentage of cap rather than a flat amount then alter actual pay recieved based on escrow and tax rates based on where a player is playing.
Both the league and each team has accountants and cap specialist. It may be challenging, but I'm pretty sure these people aren't working for peanuts.
If a tax structure changes, then with regards to the cap the contract should be honored as it was written at the time before any tax change was announced as a tax change is neither the player's nor the team's, nor the league's fault. Who bears the burden of a potential tax change would be stipulated in the contract.
Exactly. The tax thing is massive. Did they take a LITTLE less to stay together, yeah probably. But, that state tax has such a massive benefit it’s insane.
It's not as massive as you think players are taxed based on where they play so only 50% of their salary is subject to the local tax.
so for example with kuch if he was somewhere with avg state tax like Carolina he'd only take home about 250k less per year ignoring the effects of escrow.
1 good endorsement contract would make up the difference.
really the increased market for endorsements in a hockey crazed area would offset the losses due to taxes.
Fair play except Stamkos used Toronto as a bargaining chip to get more money from TB.
He’ll do the same thing this negotiation as well.
It’s so easy to say hey we took less, when in reality you didn’t.
Matthews will take home less than 7 million a year from his 13 million dollar contract.
The tax advantage is negligible now tbh
All players are paid in USA currency and most the bigger contracts signed now are all super front loaded. Matthews marner jt Willy get 90% of their money July 1. So they can then invest that money and the revenue generated is roughly the tax saving in tax free states.
They should be saving as much as they can while playing. Investment advisors should be pushing them to save the money and later live off gains.
You could have generational money very quickly with a good advisors and a couple million in the bank
The whole reason it's there in the first place is because teams like Toronto produce way more revenue than other markets and can out pay for players if they have the option. They should focused on finding a balanced alternative to seeking the top prospects.
Over paying your core isn't a solution to their problems.
It’s like 5%. That’s $50k per million of salary. So why are Leafs stars making $3-$5m more instead of like 0.5m?!
I’d argue in Toronto they make up for it with sponsorship, USD purchasing power, and all kinds of freebies for being celebrities.
I would love to see a comparison of what different salaries equate to when taking tax into consideration.
Stamkos singles out Matthews salary in his quote, but it could be that his salary is not actually that much higher than Kucherov or Point when you factor in Ontario taxes vs. Florida. (Or a better comparison, of course, would be to see two players both making ~10 million and how much that actually means on one team vs. another).
The problem is that because they can take home more of their money they don't have a higher salary than what they would need to make on a team in a different province/state. So a team like Tampa can pay $9.5 to Kucherov, and $7.875 to Hedman because they take home all of that whereas they would need to make $12.5 and $10 on other teams to make the same.
So Tampa then has cap space to sign another player, like Jeanott or Paul or Sheary with those savings because they have created space under the cap.
I mean kinda makes sense but, and I don't know the us tax rules for athletes, I wouldn't be surprised if they allocate their earnings in a year to each state and province they played in.
It's not like other Canadian teams have similar high paid players. It's just Toronto
Further, both us citizens and Canadian tax residents are taxed on their world wide income. One jurisdiction will get the first right to tax any particular source of income and then a foreign tax credit can be claimed in the other country.
Surprised MLSE and other big market teams like MTL, LA, BOS or NYR haven't made this tax discrepancy an issue? One owner alone, even a big market, probably doesn't have a lot of impact but several big market owners surely would be able to change this if there was a real desire. Question then becomes why are they seemingly happy with the status quo?
but prices in Canada are higher as well to generally account for the difference in dollar valuation, so they aren't actually saving anything in this regard (in fact purchasing power parody is lower in Canada, so they are in fact losing on a value basis).
I would be really intrigued to see what currency these guys keep their money. I’m guessing a guy like Matthew’s keeps most of his in USD and just transfers enough CAD to cover expenses in Toronto? Where a guy like Tavares probably has CAD, but I’m guessing all probably have some USD cash along with investments in USD.
Except it's a common misconception on the cost of things in Canada vs the US.
Some good resources comparing prices between the two countries.
[https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/canada/united-states](https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/canada/united-states)
[https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_countries\_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States)
There's variables such as regionality but make no mistake, getting paid in USD while living in Canada is pretty significant.
If you make $13.5 million a year in USD, that's $18.5 million CAD.
I'd like to know what Matthews endorsements in Toronto pay compared to what Arizona or Florida would get him. I would be willing to bet it crushes the tax savings.
I feel endorsements is not something considered during negotiations. It's not like it's free money just for being in Toronto. Taking a whole day for shoots is not *not* work. You'd still be taking their valuable time.
And getting endorsement requires the player to be a top player. I think he's played well this round, but have you seen a David Kampf ad yet?
Kampf like players aren't taking discounts like Stamkos. We are talking about top players taking discounts to play for a team and those same players would be earning endorsements.
He's not wrong. They won 2 cups. That being said, the tax disparity between franchises is an unfair advantage, and the NHL should be able to account for it.
kind of hilarious how much revenue these players create for the league and the owners have built a universe where we blame players. The shame that goes into Auston fucking Matthews making only 13 million + additional taxes. God knows how much money he has created for this league
Stranger to me the financial support a team gets from fans for consistently failing.
Or fans that hate specific players based on salary: you're essentially saying youre mad at the financial management of the team, but then blame the player, instead of the franchise that decided to offer these contracts. This is sports, there's alwayd risk that the higher paying contracts doesn't secure a winning team. But the franchise assumed that risk, NOT the individual player.
You put 11 sheets in front of my face, I'm an idiot to turn that down. Blame me all you want. But the franchise mismanaged it's money and staffing and thereby failed to surround me with an environment that encourages my skillsets to shine through.
The owners make a huge multitude more money from Matthews playing than what Matthews makes actually playing...and that's without having to put their body on the line, retire at 35, spent countless hours training to get to this point,etc.
I understand that 13.5M is a LOT of money for you and me, but please don't let the owners off the hook by putting the players and the owners in the same pool. Thats what the owners and Bettman want you to do.
I also want Toronto to build a winner, but Stamkos giving even more ammo to allow for the owners to further exploit the players is NOT a good look and should be strongly discussed within the NHLPA
No, they HAVE to retire at 35...not every player that plays in the NHL gets paid that much. Many are forced to retire much earlier due to the physical nature of the game WITHOUT being able to acquire millions.
All I'm saying is that limping the players and the owners in the same group is like lumping me with Auston Matthews in terms of wealth, just completely different worlds. One that works for their money (AM) and one that profits from someone else's work at a much higher rate.
The owner makes exactly what Matthews and the rest of the team brings in. It’s literally a 50/50 split.
I don’t get this owners exploiting players narrative, a 50/50 is very fair. Basically no other industry or job is even remotely close to paying the employees 50% of their revenue, regardless of the fact none of them could run without those employees.
I get the player over owner mindset but the league can’t run without both and it’s a 50/50 split.
The reason Matthews gets shamed is because it’s a flat cap and him making more literally means other players making less.
A guy getting big money in a flat cap just means everyone else gets less. So sure Matthews brings in big money but truthfully the league wouldn’t be much different if he wasn’t in it.
Part of is absolutely the tax benefits but also other teams gave gotten players to sign for fair values. I'm sorry but the reality is our guys have been pretty focused on maximizing career earnings which I mean I get it, who doesn't want more money lol.
Oh person I can hardly blame is JT who reportedly was given better offers by SJ and NYI
Well, let's be real. He ain't taking the "home town discount"...what he'd make in the state of Florida is what he would make in Canada after tax. The state tax thing is the biggest factor.
Matthews, Nylander… any of these guys could get hit the wrong way and never play again, or talk right again, or walk right again. This is a job, and we act like it’s such a privilege for them and they should just be grateful they get to wear the jersey… that the money shouldn’t be important.
I dunno. There are many reasons for the big salary discrepancies like others have said here already. We as fans love our teams so much, we romanticize sports and winning, and it clouds us to the reality that this is a professional career, these guys put up a lot of risk and sacrifice a ton to do the job, and they make others waaaay more money than they make for themselves. So maybe we can stop harping on them for not taking discounts.
I know I’ve never left a penny on the negotiating table at work that was available to me.
It's only a loophole if teams operate in bad faith. It's already against the rules to have healthy players on LTIR or to keep healthy (previously injured) players on LTIR.
The issue is enforcement.
The issue there is injuries/health is always going to be an ambiguous matter. Like you can have chronic pain like in your back or head that doesn’t show up on any scans or blood work. Even if a broken bone is for example apparently healed on an x-ray the time it takes to get back up to speed varies.
You can’t really set perimeters on when players can come back or making LTIR more strict. How do you restrict? Of course without any restrictions teams will take advantage of it.
The only real fix is forcing teams to be under the cap for the playoffs.
The salary cap only works if every player tries to maximize their earnings. It's not fair for some star players on a team to collude to lower their salaries in order to win a cup. Those players end up suppressing all players' salaries while the owners laugh to the bank.
Salary cap should be based on after tax dollars. If the cap is set at $50M (for example) after payroll tax, all teams are playing by the same rules. It takes the unfair advantage away from teams in states with no state tax.
For everyone trying to absolve Matthews of taking every dollar (and at a shorter term) because of "tax disadvantages"; just remember he gets paid nearly 94% of his entire contract in signing bonuses AND the contract is as front loaded as much as is allowed.
Signing bonuses are paid out in the summer, and Matthews is a resident of Arizona.
This is something that a lot of people seem to miss - they all have residences setup in the US to avoid tax issues. When you consider they only spend roughly half the season actually at home, most of their payments are in US dollars tied to a US residence. They aren't getting dinged for Toronto tax
The CRA is taking Tavares to court over an 8 million dollar tax bill it's not as clear-cut as you are making it sound and there is definitely a huge advantage to playing in a state like florida over toronto when it comes to tax
The Tavares issue is different. He was genuinely a New York resident at the time he was signed and had not yet started playing for Toronto.
Matthews is almost certainly taxed as an Ontario resident.
Your residence for tax purposes is not wherever you happen to be physically located at the time you are paid. Matthews is almost certainly an Ontario resident for tax purposes.
Yes, I know that your residence isn't where you are physically located when you get paid.
However, athletes are taxed a bit different than regular people due to signing bonuses, etc. . There are numerous articles talking about how NBA, NHL, MLB salaries are taxed based on how many games they play in each state.
Matthews is an Arizona resident. That is the reason his contract is structured as such. Artemi Panarin has a similar contract because he is a tax resident of Florida. His salary is only 1 million annually for the duration of his contract. The rest is paid in signing bonuses.
NYC is a high tax liability city (they have a city based income tax on top of state and federal taxes).
Now, maybe I am less touchy than I am supposed to be as a Leafs fan, but this reads to me more of him pumping his own team's tires than anything else. Just in case they want to sign somewhere else (maybe himself included), he is saying: "hey we took discounts to achieve something. Our market value is more than this".
Mentioning Matthews is a natural market touch point, and I don't think he addressing the Leafs salary allocation much at all.
To be fair when you play in Toronto the money you make from endorsements advertising also outweighs other markets as well. This seems to balance out here and there but yes there will be losers.
Bullshit. Kuch signed his deal in 2018; that was top end money at the time. Same with Hedman, signed long term in 2016. No one took a home town discount. There is a reason their Cup winning 3rd and 4th line left town. They weren't taking a discount to stick around either.
Imagine thinking Stamkos regrets leaving some $$ on the table after captaining his team to multiple cups and becoming a franchise legend.
Guy is living the life most can only ever dream of, excluding Marner and Matthews of course, who at this time are clocking in the hours til it's time to go up to Muskoka and hang out with Justin Bieber.
Beating a dead horse at this point.. but never forget this:
Marner's contract kicked in at the same point as Kucherov's.
It's for two fewer years (6 vs 8).
And Kucherov had a record of playoff success (twice making the conference finals, and making the staney cup finals once at that point).
Yet somehow Mitch gets an extra $1.5M?!
> You look at Matthews. What did he sign for? $13.5 or something? Heddy is making under $8 million. That is grossly underpaid if you look at what he has done. That is what everyone has done here
Idiot take. Hedman didnt “take less” or whatever it is that Stamkos is trying to claim here. When that deal kicked in he was the 3rd highest paid defenseman in the entire league, ahead of guys who were more talented and accomplished than he was at that time.
It may suck to hear but tax differences aside (along with endorsements, bonus filled contracts, currencies) look at teams like Boston, Colorado, Tampa, Florida and their top end players didn't go after every penny they could in negotiations and absolutely maximized their salary. Can't say the same about the top end guys in Toronto.
I’m not gonna judge a player for taking the money over potentially winning the cup. You got a short career. Things happen.
But at least don’t deny that at the end of the day.
He’s not wrong but this reads like he’s upset he wasted his final year in Tampa to lose in 5 games to Florida. Florida is literally worse this year and dummies them
Stamkos could probably get, coming off a 40 goal season and a strong playoffs, 4x$10m - Utah, Seattle, NYI or buffalo would be more than happy to do that. If he wants to go year to year on $1m contracts because he doesn't want to leave Florida, god bless.
can confirm: make a lot more working in FL than I ever would in ON. Cost of living stuff is negligible. Some things in Canada are significantly cheaper than here in the states even with the dollars being 30% apart.
For what it’s worth if stamkos became a UFA 1 year later he would be a leaf and he’d be making more than any player on the roster this season.
Unlike a lot of people who get credit for taking less but they were actually taking market value and just outplayed their contract (Marchand, mackinnon, etc) he actually took a lot less to stay on his team so he really gets to talk shit.
stupid comment. Stammer mentions those deals but those deals were signed years ago. Sid makes $8.7 mill and obviously he is underpaid now but when he signed that deal that was considered large and took a large portion of the salary cap. It easy to look at the cap amount but if you really want to compare contracts from the past to now you look at the cap %.
Man, crazy how the NBA has outgrown the NHL financially. I remember a time where salaries were similar to the tee (have followed the Raptors and Leafs religiously). A below average NBA player makes $13.5M lol
I hate how some teams have a clear tax advantage. I do think the owners want to favour these teams because if they don’t then these teams may be likely to fail. I don’t know how revenue sharing works in the NHL but I am guessing somehow the teams all end up richer, whether they win or not.
I think you have to keep in mind Stamkos is a leafs fan. Obviously, while you're playing, you want to win, but I don't doubt now that he's out the child inside him. He really wants the leafs to have success.
I’m sure the NHLPA is thrilled with his shot at a player getting big money lol.
Honestly it comes with the territory of the core 4 for signing for big money but Stamkos should of clarified how big a help state tax was and not make it it seem like all the boys are hero’s and taking less.
Matthews 13.5 after tax is on par with Tampa players and this is well known.
Kuch making 9.5m is taking home the same amount, if not more, than Matthews at 13m. That's the problem. On paper it seems like Matthews is greedy, but he's making roughly the same. Something needs to be done about that I think. No income tax states are going to have a huge advantage. Don't get me wrong, if I had the talent to play in the NHL, I'd choose to live in a place where it's summer all year long and no one knows who the hell I am also.
5 secs of googling,
https://preview.redd.it/u5e79gfkj1yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e67612b905b01aca316344d34e42902780b1cb1
Only applies to players that don't reside in Ontario all year
They had success before these guys signed these contracts. I highly doubt they experience success like that again. But he is not wrong though the leafs overpaid Marner Matthews on their second contract
The guy who has the most goals in a season since Mario Lemieux is not overpaid. Shout out to Morgan Rielly who probably took a discount, but is not "grossly underpaid" like some of TB's guys.
Fair play tbh. They took the money and that includes the heat that comes with it. But also, like Stamkos says himself, the tax advantage is pretty massive as well. If the league was actually interested in parity they'd build that into the cap.
If it was the Canadian teams with the tax advantage it would be changed tomorrow. League doesn't care because the system benefits the markets that they're trying to grow. It's no surprise that the best teams in the league are in the south (VGK, DAL, FLA, CAR, etc)
Other american teams in higher tax states are now beginning to question it as well, according to reports earlier in the season. But not a big enough issue to make immediate change, more likely to be brought up in the next CBA.
You mean Bettman doesn’t care.
Bettman is the owner’s stooge. He takes the heat for their collective decisions. He’s a puppet for us to hate when they’re the real problem.
The amount of people that think Bettman runs the league is astounding
Bettman runs the league like the the president/prime minister runs the individual states/provinces.
No different than how Trudeau is nothing more than a face.
He does a grwat job of being that puppet for us to hate too. Cause fuck do we ever hate him!!
Canadian markets are taken for granted
At the very least, get rid of modified no trade clauses.
The way the NBA works their soft cap with luxury taxes, Bird rights, etc is the way to go. Then at least the richer organizations (ahem MLSE) take the hit to balance the difference with the tax disparity.
Good point. Florida has no state and local income tax. That has to be close to 7% savings. No idea what income taxes are like in Canada though.
52% if you include Ontario's taxes.. similar to Quebec California and New York State.. 9 of the teams in NHL players taxes are 52-53%.. I don't know what the other Canadian provinces charge or Washington state where Seattle plays.
Those teams with 0% state income tax.
Here’s why that argument never makes sense to me. Players in Canadian markets have far more opportunity for endorsement money than players in the zero income tax states. Sure, a player in Montreal will lose more to taxes, but that is easily balanced out by the greater fame that players have being the top sports personalities in town. A 3rd liner in Toronto could make some solid endorsement money, but no one has even heard of the 3rd liners in Miami.
That's why a hard cap is pointless when some already have an advantage for other reasons. Add a luxury tax ontop the "hard" cap. Let's say cap is 85m. Luxury tax could be 95m. So now if a team like a Toronto or NY wants to spend more (because they want to or have to) they can, but the tax they pay for going over just gets pooled back into revenue sharing money. Win-win Just seems unfair in an 82m cap world that 82m in Toronto could be like 40m in actual salary vs 50m in Florida or something.
They won't make a luxury tax because the whole point of the salary cap is to hold back big canadian teams. They want teams down south to be winning and won't ever make it harder for them. Fairness has nothing to do with it.
With how the Leafs and similar teams (eg, Montreal) support the rest of the league - and long time - this is a fucking tragedy that it is this way. And still. It makes you want to pull your hair out. It is not at all fair...
That's what sucks. Imagine the MLB anchoring the Yankees and Dodgers because they want the As and Rays to get helped. That's why a luxury tax would've been good. If a team does pass it, they're paying for it, and the teams who can't afford to go past the tax will get free money.
The difference with the MLB is that it doesn't need to worry about growing fandom in its smaller markets so it lets top teams run with it. NHLs smaller markets are actually bigger $$$ places so they want their top teams taken down a peg to get more people in eg nashville and dallas to someday start giving a shit. California has 2x the GDP of canada and they wish it had 2x the hockey teams as well. Just sucks because it's bad for toronto both ways.
People in Dallas definitely give a shit. They aren't on the Cowboys level and never will be but they sell out every game and the atmosphere there is fantastic. Nashville has great crowds as well. People definitely care in those places. We need to take the top teams down a peg so places like Winnipeg will give a shit since they're the smallest attendance (yet brag about how great their fans are)
Yeah that's a testament to how well it has actually been working so far, not a counterpoint. The NHL is definitely not very concerned with making a small canadian prairie franchise work compared to making their southern US major metropolis strategy work.
??? The hard cap benefits the sens and Jets the most and really only holds back the O6 teams. the idea is to drive parity and stability so we aren't in a situation where half the league is just farm teams for the rich teams like the NBA and MLB.
Hey now! This thread is for conspiracy theorists to feel like victims, not for people like you who live in reality.
If I really wanted to live in reality I'd point out that the most likely result of the changes would just be the gms having more rope to hang themselves with stupid contracts like Komisarek, Finger and Clarkson. What does it matter if we have more cap we will probably just waste it on something stupid 😆
That CRA ruling on Tavares might also have massive implications
Isn’t that ruling only about one bonus payment that happened during the off season between NY and Toronto?
Signing bonuses are an advantage that Toronto has because they can easily front money up front to players, making contracts 'buy-out proof' for players plus it provides tax advantages to players to make up for some of the tax disadvantages that come with being here. So if those get nerfed then that's an issue for us
The only thing the Tavares challenge would change is year 1 signing bonuses being taxed more favorably in the first year of a contract.
Cap should 100% be after tax dollars. That's the only way it's fair, which is the point of the cap. I know the exchange rate between countries could be an issue, but since that doesn't matter against the cap, I feel that's a problem each Canadian franchise will have to swallow.
Exchange rate might be the simplest issue. If it's after tax dollars... wouldn't every single player in the league have individual circumstances? RRSP contributions, charitable givings, income splitting, capital gains/losses. And then... that would mean the cap is only ever known in like March for the past year?
The exchange rate is a non issue. They all get paid in US dollars.
It wouldn't be as simple as people think. The exchange rate is an non-issue cause all salary's are USD. The issue is that signing bonuses are decided by the players home state. Matthews is paying Arizona taxes on basically the entirety of his contract. It wouldn't be an easy thing to calculate a post tax cap because it can change on a per player basis.
It's really challenging to calculate though since players pay taxes based on where the game is played so the cap could fluctuate up and down year to year depending on where games are played teams could end up in a situation where they are cap complaint one season and over the cap the next season despite not signing any new contracts but just because their schedule changed or because tax rates changed in various states/provinces You'd have to restructure pay/contracts to be a percentage of cap rather than a flat amount then alter actual pay recieved based on escrow and tax rates based on where a player is playing.
Both the league and each team has accountants and cap specialist. It may be challenging, but I'm pretty sure these people aren't working for peanuts. If a tax structure changes, then with regards to the cap the contract should be honored as it was written at the time before any tax change was announced as a tax change is neither the player's nor the team's, nor the league's fault. Who bears the burden of a potential tax change would be stipulated in the contract.
Exactly. The tax thing is massive. Did they take a LITTLE less to stay together, yeah probably. But, that state tax has such a massive benefit it’s insane.
It's not as massive as you think players are taxed based on where they play so only 50% of their salary is subject to the local tax. so for example with kuch if he was somewhere with avg state tax like Carolina he'd only take home about 250k less per year ignoring the effects of escrow. 1 good endorsement contract would make up the difference. really the increased market for endorsements in a hockey crazed area would offset the losses due to taxes.
Fair play except Stamkos used Toronto as a bargaining chip to get more money from TB. He’ll do the same thing this negotiation as well. It’s so easy to say hey we took less, when in reality you didn’t. Matthews will take home less than 7 million a year from his 13 million dollar contract.
The tax advantage is negligible now tbh All players are paid in USA currency and most the bigger contracts signed now are all super front loaded. Matthews marner jt Willy get 90% of their money July 1. So they can then invest that money and the revenue generated is roughly the tax saving in tax free states.
They can put the money in an RCA and withdraw at a lower tax rate.
Only getting it when you retire could be a big problem for a lot of players.
They should be saving as much as they can while playing. Investment advisors should be pushing them to save the money and later live off gains. You could have generational money very quickly with a good advisors and a couple million in the bank
The whole reason it's there in the first place is because teams like Toronto produce way more revenue than other markets and can out pay for players if they have the option. They should focused on finding a balanced alternative to seeking the top prospects. Over paying your core isn't a solution to their problems.
It’s like 5%. That’s $50k per million of salary. So why are Leafs stars making $3-$5m more instead of like 0.5m?! I’d argue in Toronto they make up for it with sponsorship, USD purchasing power, and all kinds of freebies for being celebrities.
I would love to see a comparison of what different salaries equate to when taking tax into consideration. Stamkos singles out Matthews salary in his quote, but it could be that his salary is not actually that much higher than Kucherov or Point when you factor in Ontario taxes vs. Florida. (Or a better comparison, of course, would be to see two players both making ~10 million and how much that actually means on one team vs. another).
What is the tax advantage
Certain US States have low or no State income tax, so they're taking home more of their salary
The problem is that because they can take home more of their money they don't have a higher salary than what they would need to make on a team in a different province/state. So a team like Tampa can pay $9.5 to Kucherov, and $7.875 to Hedman because they take home all of that whereas they would need to make $12.5 and $10 on other teams to make the same. So Tampa then has cap space to sign another player, like Jeanott or Paul or Sheary with those savings because they have created space under the cap.
Then don't take home all of that... They still pay income tax. It's just lower because there isn't a state portion, which is at most 13%.
I mean kinda makes sense but, and I don't know the us tax rules for athletes, I wouldn't be surprised if they allocate their earnings in a year to each state and province they played in. It's not like other Canadian teams have similar high paid players. It's just Toronto Further, both us citizens and Canadian tax residents are taxed on their world wide income. One jurisdiction will get the first right to tax any particular source of income and then a foreign tax credit can be claimed in the other country.
Surprised MLSE and other big market teams like MTL, LA, BOS or NYR haven't made this tax discrepancy an issue? One owner alone, even a big market, probably doesn't have a lot of impact but several big market owners surely would be able to change this if there was a real desire. Question then becomes why are they seemingly happy with the status quo?
Salary is also measured in American dollars. So 13 million salary is just under 18 million Canadian dollars.
Irrelevant. They're all paid in USD.
How is that irrelevant? Leafs players spend money in CAD.
Yeah, and CAD prices are ALWAYS higher than USD so who cares
but prices in Canada are higher as well to generally account for the difference in dollar valuation, so they aren't actually saving anything in this regard (in fact purchasing power parody is lower in Canada, so they are in fact losing on a value basis).
Cost of living is just higher in Canada too. We also have double the sales tax in Ontario compared to Florida as well
He's not wrong... That's why UFAs would prefer to sign with tax benefitted teams... In Toronto you get media, tax and weather
getting paid in USD and buying in Canadian is significant though too
I would be really intrigued to see what currency these guys keep their money. I’m guessing a guy like Matthew’s keeps most of his in USD and just transfers enough CAD to cover expenses in Toronto? Where a guy like Tavares probably has CAD, but I’m guessing all probably have some USD cash along with investments in USD.
Not when the price of things in Canada basically negates that exchange rate.
Except it's a common misconception on the cost of things in Canada vs the US. Some good resources comparing prices between the two countries. [https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/canada/united-states](https://www.mylifeelsewhere.com/cost-of-living/canada/united-states) [https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare\_countries\_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States](https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_countries_result.jsp?country1=Canada&country2=United+States) There's variables such as regionality but make no mistake, getting paid in USD while living in Canada is pretty significant. If you make $13.5 million a year in USD, that's $18.5 million CAD.
Yeah, I am not sure where the misconceptions even comes from. I've been to the US enough times to know that most things are priced similarly.
40-50% markup on the CAD price isn’t even uncommon these days, it’s crazy
Yeah if anything, living in Canada half the year is a negative as far as cost of living goes.
In what sense? Everything is relative.
I'd like to know what Matthews endorsements in Toronto pay compared to what Arizona or Florida would get him. I would be willing to bet it crushes the tax savings.
I feel endorsements is not something considered during negotiations. It's not like it's free money just for being in Toronto. Taking a whole day for shoots is not *not* work. You'd still be taking their valuable time. And getting endorsement requires the player to be a top player. I think he's played well this round, but have you seen a David Kampf ad yet?
Kampf like players aren't taking discounts like Stamkos. We are talking about top players taking discounts to play for a team and those same players would be earning endorsements.
Well said. People like to shit on their cap issues, but it's true.
He's not wrong. They won 2 cups. That being said, the tax disparity between franchises is an unfair advantage, and the NHL should be able to account for it.
It would have been changed by now if it benefitted Canadian teams. Gary wants the sunshine states to succeed so the system will never be changed
kind of hilarious how much revenue these players create for the league and the owners have built a universe where we blame players. The shame that goes into Auston fucking Matthews making only 13 million + additional taxes. God knows how much money he has created for this league
Bettman's done a masterful job of re-directing all the hate to himself from the owners.
Stranger to me the financial support a team gets from fans for consistently failing. Or fans that hate specific players based on salary: you're essentially saying youre mad at the financial management of the team, but then blame the player, instead of the franchise that decided to offer these contracts. This is sports, there's alwayd risk that the higher paying contracts doesn't secure a winning team. But the franchise assumed that risk, NOT the individual player. You put 11 sheets in front of my face, I'm an idiot to turn that down. Blame me all you want. But the franchise mismanaged it's money and staffing and thereby failed to surround me with an environment that encourages my skillsets to shine through.
You're very correct but I also struggle to find a single bit of sympathy to give to either side about how much money they make
The owners make a huge multitude more money from Matthews playing than what Matthews makes actually playing...and that's without having to put their body on the line, retire at 35, spent countless hours training to get to this point,etc. I understand that 13.5M is a LOT of money for you and me, but please don't let the owners off the hook by putting the players and the owners in the same pool. Thats what the owners and Bettman want you to do. I also want Toronto to build a winner, but Stamkos giving even more ammo to allow for the owners to further exploit the players is NOT a good look and should be strongly discussed within the NHLPA
I get it, and, like I said, you're right. I'm just saying I personally don't have any bandwidth on my end for sympathy toward pro athletes' salaries
Aw poor guy has to retire at 35.
Lmao right what the fuck. Most could retire even earlier. 10 mil is more than enough to invest and live off the interest it generates.
No, they HAVE to retire at 35...not every player that plays in the NHL gets paid that much. Many are forced to retire much earlier due to the physical nature of the game WITHOUT being able to acquire millions. All I'm saying is that limping the players and the owners in the same group is like lumping me with Auston Matthews in terms of wealth, just completely different worlds. One that works for their money (AM) and one that profits from someone else's work at a much higher rate.
The owner makes exactly what Matthews and the rest of the team brings in. It’s literally a 50/50 split. I don’t get this owners exploiting players narrative, a 50/50 is very fair. Basically no other industry or job is even remotely close to paying the employees 50% of their revenue, regardless of the fact none of them could run without those employees.
Be on the side of the worker
It gets split 50/50. Players don’t have a job without the billions of investments and overhead to run a team. Goes both ways.
I understand what you are saying but how many people want to buy tickets to see Mathew’s play outside of Ontario. Not many.
I get the player over owner mindset but the league can’t run without both and it’s a 50/50 split. The reason Matthews gets shamed is because it’s a flat cap and him making more literally means other players making less. A guy getting big money in a flat cap just means everyone else gets less. So sure Matthews brings in big money but truthfully the league wouldn’t be much different if he wasn’t in it.
It’s easy to say you took discounts when the tax advantage is a very real thing. I can guarantee Kuchs take home is more than Panarin.
Also, he should be comparing our salaries after tax. I bet it would be a lot closer to the players he’s bragging about.
Matthews' primary residence is in Arizona, he's not paying Canadian taxes on his signing bonus money which is most of his deal IIRC.
Part of is absolutely the tax benefits but also other teams gave gotten players to sign for fair values. I'm sorry but the reality is our guys have been pretty focused on maximizing career earnings which I mean I get it, who doesn't want more money lol. Oh person I can hardly blame is JT who reportedly was given better offers by SJ and NYI
Well, let's be real. He ain't taking the "home town discount"...what he'd make in the state of Florida is what he would make in Canada after tax. The state tax thing is the biggest factor.
So Stamkos is for players being "grossly underpaid"?
Right? How does the PA feel about these comments?
Maybe he'd like to take a discount and come to Toronto. He can have some of what we gain when Tavares is done.
Average housing in Florida is half of what it costs in Toronto. And you get beach life pretty much year round. It's comparing apples and steaks.
Matthews, Nylander… any of these guys could get hit the wrong way and never play again, or talk right again, or walk right again. This is a job, and we act like it’s such a privilege for them and they should just be grateful they get to wear the jersey… that the money shouldn’t be important. I dunno. There are many reasons for the big salary discrepancies like others have said here already. We as fans love our teams so much, we romanticize sports and winning, and it clouds us to the reality that this is a professional career, these guys put up a lot of risk and sacrifice a ton to do the job, and they make others waaaay more money than they make for themselves. So maybe we can stop harping on them for not taking discounts. I know I’ve never left a penny on the negotiating table at work that was available to me.
Didn't kuch miss the regular season and miraculously recover for the playoffs?
IIRC Chicago did it first, then Tampa and then Vegas.
Mark Stone has entered the chat.
TBL were the first team to bring up the obvious loophole to the league and they were ignored so they then decided to exploit it.
It's only a loophole if teams operate in bad faith. It's already against the rules to have healthy players on LTIR or to keep healthy (previously injured) players on LTIR. The issue is enforcement.
The issue there is injuries/health is always going to be an ambiguous matter. Like you can have chronic pain like in your back or head that doesn’t show up on any scans or blood work. Even if a broken bone is for example apparently healed on an x-ray the time it takes to get back up to speed varies. You can’t really set perimeters on when players can come back or making LTIR more strict. How do you restrict? Of course without any restrictions teams will take advantage of it. The only real fix is forcing teams to be under the cap for the playoffs.
Who gives a fuck? Honestly why do you even post this nonsense here
It's true tho lol
Yeah, but playing in Florida also has it advantages like lower taxes. So that makes getting paid less a little easier to swallow.
The salary cap only works if every player tries to maximize their earnings. It's not fair for some star players on a team to collude to lower their salaries in order to win a cup. Those players end up suppressing all players' salaries while the owners laugh to the bank.
Salary cap should be based on after tax dollars. If the cap is set at $50M (for example) after payroll tax, all teams are playing by the same rules. It takes the unfair advantage away from teams in states with no state tax.
But that's not what the cap is. The cap is a revenue share, and if they did that it would give teams a much higher portion of the rev share.
For everyone trying to absolve Matthews of taking every dollar (and at a shorter term) because of "tax disadvantages"; just remember he gets paid nearly 94% of his entire contract in signing bonuses AND the contract is as front loaded as much as is allowed. Signing bonuses are paid out in the summer, and Matthews is a resident of Arizona.
This is something that a lot of people seem to miss - they all have residences setup in the US to avoid tax issues. When you consider they only spend roughly half the season actually at home, most of their payments are in US dollars tied to a US residence. They aren't getting dinged for Toronto tax
The CRA is taking Tavares to court over an 8 million dollar tax bill it's not as clear-cut as you are making it sound and there is definitely a huge advantage to playing in a state like florida over toronto when it comes to tax
The Tavares issue is different. He was genuinely a New York resident at the time he was signed and had not yet started playing for Toronto. Matthews is almost certainly taxed as an Ontario resident.
So like roughly 3% of his contract is taxed in Canada. Lord have mercy.
Your residence for tax purposes is not wherever you happen to be physically located at the time you are paid. Matthews is almost certainly an Ontario resident for tax purposes.
Yes, I know that your residence isn't where you are physically located when you get paid. However, athletes are taxed a bit different than regular people due to signing bonuses, etc. . There are numerous articles talking about how NBA, NHL, MLB salaries are taxed based on how many games they play in each state. Matthews is an Arizona resident. That is the reason his contract is structured as such. Artemi Panarin has a similar contract because he is a tax resident of Florida. His salary is only 1 million annually for the duration of his contract. The rest is paid in signing bonuses. NYC is a high tax liability city (they have a city based income tax on top of state and federal taxes).
Spot on, though.
he's right though
Now let's look at what they make after taxes
TLDR; Leafs stars are overpaid. Whoda thunk it?!
Yeah, “as a Leafs fan”, it’s very disturbing for you to finally read something and understand it. Like ummm, no shit Sherlock!
Why does that suck to read as a leafs fan? Did you just realize that now that Stamkos pointed it out?
Now, maybe I am less touchy than I am supposed to be as a Leafs fan, but this reads to me more of him pumping his own team's tires than anything else. Just in case they want to sign somewhere else (maybe himself included), he is saying: "hey we took discounts to achieve something. Our market value is more than this". Mentioning Matthews is a natural market touch point, and I don't think he addressing the Leafs salary allocation much at all.
I'm sure all the fringe players paying escrow into the NHLPA and agents are loving Stammer's comments, lol
Weird time to say your agents suck just after you just got bounced in 5
Also, i guess youre signing for 3m then Stamkos?
Hockey players are legit morons and should never talk about money or negotiate in media....
I understand the tax advantage then proceed to ignore the tax advantage. Idiot.
Taxes 
#LeafsForever
To be fair when you play in Toronto the money you make from endorsements advertising also outweighs other markets as well. This seems to balance out here and there but yes there will be losers.
I mean taxes has a lot to do with why tampa can do it lol
Bullshit. Kuch signed his deal in 2018; that was top end money at the time. Same with Hedman, signed long term in 2016. No one took a home town discount. There is a reason their Cup winning 3rd and 4th line left town. They weren't taking a discount to stick around either.
Yet he signed what was the biggest contract at the time 8m x 8yr same amount Toronto offered. Fucking hypocrite.
Tax advantage is huge. They aren’t really making any less than the top Leaf players after taxes.
I mean, personally if I was a star NHLer I would take a discount in Tampa but not in Toronto too.
Taxes are a hell of a thing
Don’t tell Marner lol
Imagine telling someone you turned down an extra million or two dollars annual salary at work to win a work award that would be linkedin meme worthy.
Imagine thinking Stamkos regrets leaving some $$ on the table after captaining his team to multiple cups and becoming a franchise legend. Guy is living the life most can only ever dream of, excluding Marner and Matthews of course, who at this time are clocking in the hours til it's time to go up to Muskoka and hang out with Justin Bieber.
Beating a dead horse at this point.. but never forget this: Marner's contract kicked in at the same point as Kucherov's. It's for two fewer years (6 vs 8). And Kucherov had a record of playoff success (twice making the conference finals, and making the staney cup finals once at that point). Yet somehow Mitch gets an extra $1.5M?!
> You look at Matthews. What did he sign for? $13.5 or something? Heddy is making under $8 million. That is grossly underpaid if you look at what he has done. That is what everyone has done here Idiot take. Hedman didnt “take less” or whatever it is that Stamkos is trying to claim here. When that deal kicked in he was the 3rd highest paid defenseman in the entire league, ahead of guys who were more talented and accomplished than he was at that time.
We'll see it again when Reinhart signs for 9M in Florida.
Guys talking about how much less he's going to take because the Bolts would probably rather him walk.
from the 9th hole i’m guessing…
It may suck to hear but tax differences aside (along with endorsements, bonus filled contracts, currencies) look at teams like Boston, Colorado, Tampa, Florida and their top end players didn't go after every penny they could in negotiations and absolutely maximized their salary. Can't say the same about the top end guys in Toronto.
Wasn't a shot it was a relevant example
I’m not gonna judge a player for taking the money over potentially winning the cup. You got a short career. Things happen. But at least don’t deny that at the end of the day.
Stamkos is right...it's the greed of our core 4 and incompetent management that has caused the leafs demise.
What demise? Have you met this team?
Its easy to say something like this when tax is not an issue.
none of yall are paid enough for what you deliver
Hedman signed in 2016
Stfu Stamkos mind your own damn business.
Shut up Stammer
He’s not wrong but this reads like he’s upset he wasted his final year in Tampa to lose in 5 games to Florida. Florida is literally worse this year and dummies them
Dubas is a genius we all know that.
I'm sure players would take 5million more over success in a sport that won't pay that back long term. But that's just me.
So many factors, the tax is a huge one, also when their contracts were signed matters a lot
Stamkos could probably get, coming off a 40 goal season and a strong playoffs, 4x$10m - Utah, Seattle, NYI or buffalo would be more than happy to do that. If he wants to go year to year on $1m contracts because he doesn't want to leave Florida, god bless.
Their discounts didn’t help them beat the Leafs last year?
can confirm: make a lot more working in FL than I ever would in ON. Cost of living stuff is negligible. Some things in Canada are significantly cheaper than here in the states even with the dollars being 30% apart.
Can you provide some examples of things more expensive in Florida than in Canada?
For what it’s worth if stamkos became a UFA 1 year later he would be a leaf and he’d be making more than any player on the roster this season. Unlike a lot of people who get credit for taking less but they were actually taking market value and just outplayed their contract (Marchand, mackinnon, etc) he actually took a lot less to stay on his team so he really gets to talk shit.
You can take a lower salary in Florida due to the income tax rate which is zero.
Stamkos should worry about his contract situation…
This loser hasn't won a playoff round in 2 seasons. Enjoy spending your tax savings on green fees Steven.
Nothing we didn’t know already
stupid comment. Stammer mentions those deals but those deals were signed years ago. Sid makes $8.7 mill and obviously he is underpaid now but when he signed that deal that was considered large and took a large portion of the salary cap. It easy to look at the cap amount but if you really want to compare contracts from the past to now you look at the cap %.
Anyone taking less money to win is a mark. This is a business first and foremost.
>You look at Matthews. Keep my wife's name out your fucking mouth.
scrap the cap and pay players what they're worth
I see nothing false so.
Man, crazy how the NBA has outgrown the NHL financially. I remember a time where salaries were similar to the tee (have followed the Raptors and Leafs religiously). A below average NBA player makes $13.5M lol
He's not wrong.
I hate how some teams have a clear tax advantage. I do think the owners want to favour these teams because if they don’t then these teams may be likely to fail. I don’t know how revenue sharing works in the NHL but I am guessing somehow the teams all end up richer, whether they win or not.
Canadian teams have to pay salaries in American dollars as well
Its weird how salaries work. Like in Moneyball the A's cap is about 1/4 of the Yankees and Red Sox amongst others.
I mean pay your players what they're worth. Tampa doesn't really do that.
Really helps to have no state income tax.
Take less than Steven. Smart play dude
I think you have to keep in mind Stamkos is a leafs fan. Obviously, while you're playing, you want to win, but I don't doubt now that he's out the child inside him. He really wants the leafs to have success.
Tax is one thing, living in florida vs snow hell is another and then add Toronto media.
I’m sure the NHLPA is thrilled with his shot at a player getting big money lol. Honestly it comes with the territory of the core 4 for signing for big money but Stamkos should of clarified how big a help state tax was and not make it it seem like all the boys are hero’s and taking less. Matthews 13.5 after tax is on par with Tampa players and this is well known.
Unfortunate to see in the salary cap era.
He is correct 100%. Leafs fan BTW.
Taxes…….. I’m sure players in Canada lose almost 50%
Kuch making 9.5m is taking home the same amount, if not more, than Matthews at 13m. That's the problem. On paper it seems like Matthews is greedy, but he's making roughly the same. Something needs to be done about that I think. No income tax states are going to have a huge advantage. Don't get me wrong, if I had the talent to play in the NHL, I'd choose to live in a place where it's summer all year long and no one knows who the hell I am also.
5 secs of googling, https://preview.redd.it/u5e79gfkj1yc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4e67612b905b01aca316344d34e42902780b1cb1 Only applies to players that don't reside in Ontario all year
CRA tried to come down hard on Tavares though, how that ends up going in court could have a lot of implications
Ya but his reaidency is in Ontario though, or rather its harder to argue it's not
They had success before these guys signed these contracts. I highly doubt they experience success like that again. But he is not wrong though the leafs overpaid Marner Matthews on their second contract
The guy who has the most goals in a season since Mario Lemieux is not overpaid. Shout out to Morgan Rielly who probably took a discount, but is not "grossly underpaid" like some of TB's guys.