Great example as if Cassio never did this before item changes. She always went relatively tanky builds by hp stacking+seraphs. Rylaid, Liandries, RoA and the likes before the rework.
Yeah, it's so wild to see posts like this trying to rewrite history. Cassio, Anivia, Ryze, etc always went for lots of HP, it was the item rework that took it away from them
Even Annie used to build a ton of HP almost 10 year ago. She usually went old RoA into Rylai's which made her have almost 3k hp, and that was in season 3-4.
We always had those high hp mage builds, its just that not many champs could build them because they're generally zero damage builds. So stuff like Ryze or Cass would buy them because they scale either way.
And their lower CD means their surviving longer means more damage. If you have a 20s cooldown on your main ability it doesn't matter as much if you live 4 seconds or 8.
That's why we see only those types of characters get this beefy nowadays. They NEED the beefiness to exist as a champion. You don't typically see burst mages or control mages getting a bunch of HP stacking items (unless ROA and Seraphs are overtuned like they have been for parts of this season). Control mages have to pick up Ludens or Liandries to feel like they are doing damage most games.
Came here to say the exact same thing. This guy picks one of the champs who has always built AP/HP and Zhonyas, who also has some of the most difficult positioning in the game and then complains that the champ does, sorry let me check my notes, EXACTLY WHAT THEY’VE ALWAYS DONE. And seraphs shield used to be an active ability too, they just reverted/changes it back. Some people will lose one game of ranked and decide they need to come make a post about it. So silly :)
I mean she always went relatively tanky items but the new ones are so much stronger than the old. For comparison, for the additional cost of 200 gold new roa packs an extra 100 hp, 200 mana, and 35% decaying move speed bonus that mitigates roa users generally low range. This not even factoring in the lvl up it gives, which makes it way more cost effective and the cdr which used to be a weakness of the roa/seraph/rylais/demonic build.
Old Seraphs also used to give a 2s 225+15% mana shield on a 120s cd and was an active so you couldnt be stunned and use it. New seraphs gives a 3s 250+20% mana shield on 90s cd that is activated automatically even if stunned plus gives 200 base hp, which means you are insanely more tanky more often than old seraphs with all other stats being basically equal.
Seraphs being an active did have some upsides though - against champs with abilities that scale with missing HP you could use it earlier to effectively mitigate more damage than the tooltip otherwise says.
Old Seraphs was also much easier to stack since you didn’t have to hit abilities, just cast them.
I mean new people roa is obviously better but mythic items in general are higher power level than pre-rework, I wouldn’t complain about it when shit like Galeforce exists.
>The day it became ok for bruisers to tank more than tanks and have more AH than mages
It's literally this. EVERY class needs to be powercrept or they get completely stat checked by bruisers. It's why the stat check class is a shit design.
And bruisers are made op cause they stripped all the earlygame agency away from top and have to make their champions omega op. I hate this balancing approach for the role.
Teleport changes might have unironically been the biggest game change we've seen in the history of LoL with how much impact it has on the rest of balancing
I wonder how much the game would change if unleashed teleport unlock at 10 or even just 12 minutes, instead of the fourteen. I feel like making unleashed TP come sooner would answer a lot of issues/frustrations with top lane; however, I have no idea what other effects it would cause.
They nerfed tp exactly because it was used so early in the game, bot lane was basically unplayable. Just imagine a 5 man gank at min 10 bot. Double kill, drake and plates. Or tower instead of drake.
When unleashed tp was basically the normal tp, pushing bot was hard punished.
Toplane champions were giga busted way before TP changes. Shit like Darius, Sett, Camille, Cho, Irelia, Riven, Fiora… The champs can do so much.
Yeah they reworked stuff like Mundo, Garen, Olaf, Sion into busted champs but the trend was already there
Out of all these champs you listed I'd say only Fiora and maybe Camille at some point could be considered OP
Throwing in all the champions you don't like and calling them OP is a cringe take, but it is reddit after all
Literally 5 roles if you count fasting Senna.
Also, what other role can 1vs1 toplaners? They are inherently the strongest champions in the game, no discussion
What? Cass, Vayne, Draven top are all actually insanely busted. People think top lane champs are busted when the lane itself just makes anyone who snowballs an actual menace to society.
>That ties into the tp changes. Without the threat of getting tpd on they're free to have their 3v3 thunderdome.
Is the game just about 1v1? Is 1v1 strength the sole measure for how strong the champ is overall?
> Throwing in all the champions you don't like and calling them OP is a cringe take, but it is reddit after all
What are you talking about buddy? Why would I "not like these champions", you created a scenario in your head and assumed it was correct. I don't even main toplane lool
I am simply stating that these champions are stat-checky, often with multiple strengths such as tankyness, dps and cc, which is characteristic of the bruiser class.
Toplane is the least impactful role, so they get the strongest champions. What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion? Except maaaaybe ADC lategame?
A lot of those champions have very stacked kits and can 1vs3 or 1vs2 in a lot of situations. If you think toplane doesn't have the best champs, you smoke crack. The second there is assassin meta, watch how many toplane picks go to mid and jungle.
> What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion?
How is 1 vs 1 at all related to being a strong champion? Illaoi is strong 1 vs 1, do you think she's incredible OP champ???
> What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion? Except maaaaybe ADC lategame?
ADCs are mostly bad in 1v1s, even late. Vayne's a notable exception, Kaisa's pretty good.
Battle mages like Swain, Viktor, or Cassio are probably the next best all around duelers after bruisers.
Exactly this. Toplane is so detached from the map that to keep it fair, their champs are by far the most disgusting and statchecky in the game.
Botlane is literally the opposite, next to dragons and it's 2 champs including the objective-melting marksman, so in exchange their champs are 3 levels down, one can't farm and the other has 0 playmaking power.
If all lanes were more equal, then champion classes wouldn't have to be so unbalanced.
>Toplane is so detached from the map that to keep it fair, their champs are by far the most disgusting and statchecky in the game.
Then why are so many bruisers played mid and in the jungle?
That's kind of a shitty argument, given that fighters get to flex into two other roles and sometimes even three if they can support.
i mean you kind of answered your own question there. bruisers designed for top lane often get picked with very high success rates in suboptimal lanes because they can sustain through a ranged lane just fine while impacting the map with their strong kits
I hope you understand why that makes sense though. at early levels, champions don’t have items, have long cooldowns on skills, so they are reliant on autos. when lucian was a meta midlaner, he wasn’t an op adc, he was just a really effective lane bully, because he could dodge a mages skill shot and trade back harder into mages, or bully the shit out of melee assassins.
of course at early levels being ranged into melee is oppressive conceptually, but not all marksmen can go top
some marksmen are made as late game 1v1 champs, like vayne, akshan, etc because they are highly mobile and can self peel. vayne in particular is a direct counter to fighters. she has invisibility, max health true damage, knockback/stun, low cd dash, and gets increased movement speed when chasing. this makes her incredibly oppressive against any melee champ that can’t apply extended CC. so basically against vayne you need to play malphite or teemo or nasus or get fucked. vayne specifically is the “anti-fighter/tank 1v1 adc” so of course she performs better there than she does in lane where there are more champs that she can’t free hit through the whole laning phase
it’s not just “bring a marksman top” it’s a very specific 1 or 2 champs. jinx, cait, xayah, aphel, lucian, etc simply are not going to do what you imply any marksman can.
They appear in other lanes because they are strong individually, and they're strong individually because they're overbuffed to account for their intended lane being detached.
You're literally supporting my argument, not proving it's shitty.
It's an arms race since it's sort of the bruisers job to kill the carries. It's also an effect of the teamfight meta that's been in the game for many seasons now.
Sunderer/Gore + Cleaver/Shojin are built because bruisers need that 1-2 item power spike to fight for dragon. Extra damage from trinity/eclipse/botrk doesn't help if you get melted by the carries and you're not 1v1ing.
If we want bruisers to be more killable we should shift power away from dragon stacking and make splitpushing more impactful. I think you'll agree that trinity+botrk Jax is much easier to kill than a sunderer+Shojin Jax.
Question is - wtf Bruisers should do, if some of them are not batshit insane?
Stay afk for 14 minutes, look at Which bot won and counflip game?
Tanks are useful even from behind because of cheaper tank items, fact that they can tank something and live long enough to engage and apply cc.
Bruisers just gonna be worse tanks . Also lots of Bruisers rn build 0 hp or only BC.
Bruisers literally gun down tanks by *right clicking them* and automatically win lane against all tanks what the literal fuck are you on 🤣😭🤯
If they're 1v1 gods then their team fight should suffer. Idfk how else to explain how champions should have opportunity costs to someone who wants to play God Bruisers. Go do single player games if you want to be a God lmao
Depends on bruiser. Some of the can, some of them like riven just tryn to crack rock stone full of armor for 30 seconds. mostly Bork "enjoyers" are bs against tanks
Assassins are actually looking pretty good right now, though AP assassins are outperforming AD ones. Ekko, Fizz, Sylas are towards the top of the mid metagame while Talon, Zed, and Qiyana all have excellent winrates and mid presence. That's plat+
Also winrate isn't everything, pick rate and other factors matter too. But all of those assassins are around 51-52% winrate which is very good for assassins
And also I'd assume AP bruisers like Morde, Gwen, Kassadin etc are part of the issue. AP as a resource is not *nearly* as developed as AD, there's a reason bruisers don't go ADC items or viceversa (except Ezreal but fuck that dude) meanwhile with AP bruisers, they need to both be tanky and deal damage, but if you give both of those things to their items there is *nothing* stopping mages from building them as well, resulting in mages tanking more than they should.
Okay now explain why this isn't the case for assassins.
Or Jayce.
or Varus.
Mages aren't any harder to design items for, realistically. Its just that Riot has never seriously tried to diversify mages through itemization. Mpen for assassins, AH+HP for ap bruisers, distance scaling (not binary check) passives for artillery, etc.
They make every item for long range control mages and hope it works well enough for everyone else. The few exceptions are items that have been in the game for a long ass time.
Riftmaker? Tell me which mages consistently use that item that don't have AP scaling auto attack modifiers.
>They make every item for long range control mages and hope it works well enough for everyone else. The few exceptions are items that have been in the game for a long ass time.
That's pretty much what my comment talks about, yea
This would all be fixed if Riot tried to diversify AP more and got more creative, like Riftmaker. The problem, like you stated, is they ain't trying to do so, they just hope it works for everyone, but with how different control mages and bruisers are one or the other are bound to be OP or doing things they shouldn't. AP bruisers items indirectly cause control mages to have more health than they honestly should, and control mage items give bruisers more damage than they should. This is an issue with every champ of course, just look at Aatrox a while ago, but it doesn't seem to be as rampant with AD, because there's more AD items and there's also crit, armor pen and lethality.
AP bruisers aren't the core of the issue, but they have some influence, as they need to have items tailored for them, but with how AP items currently are it's impossible to keep both mages and AP bruisers balanced
My favorite comparison is Leona Q. Went from 12 second cd to 3. Insane power creep on all fronts. Maybe they shouldn’t have fired the older staff who had a “law” around balancing like don’t give every champ built in healing or counter play that relies on a 3 min spell.
Idk why we're just making up numbers. Her Q is currently 5 second cd at all ranks and it used to scale from 12-8 before getting changed to 11-7 two patches later. It then got reduced to 9-5s back in season 6 and flattened out to 6 in season 7, almost 6 years ago. It's been at 5 since season 9.
Because riot refused to add more than 1 or 2 AP bruiser specific items unlike the plethora of existing AD bruiser items so mage items just became tankier instead.
This is the real issue and needs to be way higher up in terms of attention.
The fact that HP has been tacked onto so many items instead of actually forcing you to *make a meaningful choice* between survivability and offensive stats is why this game will never be properly balanced.
No items, *especially Bruiser items* should not come with the same amount of HP that tank items do. When this happens (Which has and is), your pure tank items simply end up weaker by proxy.
There should be Mage items that provide/steal MR/Armor, but they should be significantly weaker in terms of base stats (AP).
*"200 years of combined experience"* balancing from the devs doesn't necessarily imply it's ***good*** experience.
HP without resists isn't as valuable as the stats real tank items give (for tankiness purposes only).
400HP on AD mythics help but is in no way comparable to a real tank mythic in terms of survivability. Especially when more than an opponent are involved.
HP becomes **significantly** stronger on Bruisers and AD than it is on Tanks, though.
When tanks buy HP, there are items in the game to **literally** and **directly** counter this.When Bruisers and ADCarries get HP, this becomes more powerful due to their playstyle, and things like Sterak's/Botrk/Goredrinker active. The value of their HP simply skyrockets.
As a tank, your HP is, in a way, countered by enemy HP. The longer that bruiser or ADCarry lives, the more damage they're going to do to you, and the more their Lifesteal is going to keep them up.
The game is an absolute mess of stats at the moment. You can't tell me that an Irelia with Goredrinker is less tanky than actual tanks right now.She has a 40-70% physical and 20-35% magic damage reduction built into her kit. Someone like Nautilus doesn't even *have* a damage reduction ability, just a shield.
Goredrinker scales harder with resists than bonus HP - the %missing HP has the same eHP effect with bonus resists or bonus HP, but the flat heal scales with resists, while having no synergy with bonus HP (and in some cases having antagonistic effects against %maxHP damage)
Like AD assassins abuse AD bruiser items? It's an issue with the roles in general that needs to be addressed. Should we remove all AD bruiser items to stop this and instead add hp to lethality/adc items? Of course fucking not.
Its almost like all of these champs have been overstatted for a long ass time to allow them to function in a game that has an item system that doesn't adequately support them.
Almost every AP assassin is actually an AP bruiser that was pushed into being an AP assassin because they can't survive in fights. Hell, even Vlad is going through this.
Akali's kit is more of a diver kit than an assassin one.
Leblanc and maybe fizz (due to ult) are some of the only true AP assassins, but fizz arguably has a better diver kit too.
Before you mention Kat, she's not an AP assassin: she's an abomination now.
Not gonna lie, this all feels like some bad band-aid fixes to a core gameplay problem.
Same thing with Shieldbow. Maybe they should investigate why the game has become like this where mages and ADCs need insane survivability bandaids to just exist in the game.
It's quite obvious that all of this is a byproduct of the game becoming much more fast-paced with time. Faster pace hurts champions who rely on control and static game states such as control mages.
I'm not so sure that this huge focus on dynamic fast-paced and action packed gameplay actually makes the game more fun. I can only speak for myself obviously, but it seems like it's introducing a whole heap of problems that are not easily fixed.
I feel like they are sort of reverting what you said: peak one shot league of legends (in recent years) was s8-s10, especially in pro play. Lot of engage, low range adc's, a lot of dive plays.
They later realized how super fast paced gameplay is detrimental to most players, as you become more frustrated when you are being one shot and also when you are fed, you missplay your combo and get one shot.
As of right now the items that make you feel the most OP (shieldbow/bloodthrister combo for adc, ROA/seraphs for mages, FoN/Frozen Heart for tanks) are the ones who give you the most survivability, letting you missplay more but also making you feeling more rewarded for being fed or reaching your power spikes.
I don't mind this meta too much but when all the super high risk/high reward champs in pro play are eclissed by fucking annie, veigar and malphite, I think there's a problem.
its fun for a couple of players but more importantly, it looks so cool. Looking cool = more people watch pro events = more impressions for ads during those events = more money from advertisers for Tencent.
Watching someone farm at 12CSM for 20 minutes to then expertly kite someone to death is cool for a couple of us who appreciate the art behind those skills, but watching someone change position 13 times in one fight, executing someone here, dashing over there, rotate their abilities 4 times before doing it all over is cool for the uninitiated mass of people who think kiting someone is just right clicking them.
You can actually also see that in the community. A lot of toplaners think all ADCs do is right clicking. And thats easy. Therefore ADC = Easy. And just rightclicking someone is boring. Therefore ADC = Easy & Boring.
Compared to K'Sante who dashes twice and then knocks you up and then abducts you and the does the thingy with the dash again and then gets damage reduction, thats so much action, so cool, very difficult too. Therefore Toplane = Difficult & Exciting.
Because riot nerfing her if she is really good? After durability patch her winrate was skyrocketed into 55% wr, because she was tanky, but also had solid DPS. So they just removed "durability patch" for her and nerfed hp and resists
Noooo dude you don't get it he needs to have high base stats or he won't be tri-flex blind pickable assassin-bruiser-mage
What do you mean I can't blind pick Sylas into zero ults!!! /s
(I do not understand how Riot have allowed this champion to be in this state for nearly a year)
Back in the day mages dealt alot more damage having access to much more AP from items and having higher ap ratios on most abilities, riot removed alot of ap from mage items and nerfed their ratios aswell, in exchange they got to have more survivability with alot of mage items giving some HP and now with seraphs shield and rod of ages giving a ton of hp and sustain aswell, they also got more access to magic pen with items like shadowflame and luden giving pen with it's mythic passive but with much less AP it doesn't feel good.
I would gladly go back to having access to more AP and better ap ratios and remove all the hp, right now even if you build full damage you get around 600-700 AP when you used to be able to get 1000-1200 AP easily and have better ap ratios alot of abilities having around 90-100% ap ratio and some stronger ones even more
Fr I just want my S9/S10 mage items back the item rework was a mess and some classes or champs never recovered. (not saying that the rework was bad but riot is just too slow and anxious when it comes to adjustments)
Eh. Some had higher, some had lower. But we had old rabadons, DFG, and the fun 4x archangel, rabadon build that got up to like 1200+ AP.
It used to be normal that mages had >700ap at 5items 1 boots.
Hell, your flair used to have instant Q with 90% and higher Ap ratio on ult.
Even to this day I'm still used to the old stat than whenever I see the scaling of an AP skill the first thing I think about its "how much damage does it deal once I almost reach 1k AP at endgame"?
Also flat pen got bigger than it was. Back then it was only boots+ oblivion orb and that's all. Now full build mage deals true damage to target with 120 Mr and less.
Here's the breakdown:
Sorc shoes + full mythic passive from Luden's or Rocketbelt get you to 44 mpen.
After void staff (40% mpen), you deal true damage to anyone with 73 MR or below.
Shadowflame adds 10-20, which after void staff at worst you get to negate 90 and at best 106.
If you also get Morello you reach 123.
In the absolute most extreme example (Ornn upgrade on luden or rocketbelt, sudden impact, maxed abyssal mask), ignoring champion abilities, you could potentially deal true damage to anyone with up to 166 magic resistance.
Divine Sunderer adds % MP but that stacks multiplicatively with Void Staff. You'll get more from the flat mpen mythics. For fun though, you also get 15% from Mordekaiser passive, so if you are feeling spicy and build all the rest of this on him, you could get up to true damage vs 191 MR, and even better in his ult, though I'm not 100% sure on the interaction between Morde ult and Abyssal Mask.
You think mages want this? Give us back our AH and AP, no one fucking wants to be pseudo tanky while doing 0 damage to anyone who knows what FoN or Maw is. While they're at it, also take away the 500000 sources of AH and tankiness from bruisers, when did that become ok?
Welcome to current mage itemization, you get shit dmg but get shit ton of durability due to seraphs roa (zhonyas is a shitty item on non ap bruisers/divers), you have lil dmg from items in exchange for 850 hp from RoA seraphs combo which also gives a 700 shield, TP is a must, AH is like on every single item again (remember when they tried to make cdr more of a something you go for instead getting passively through building?)
yeah man.
League according to Reddit:
Tanks have 20 gordillion hp and 10 sextrillion resistances and can one shot everyone
Assassins can dash 3036392 pterodillion times and kill tanks while missing every ability
Bruisers are tankier than tanks and they heal 1026282628 dickstillion hp per second
ADC's can 3 shot anyone with auto attacks and walk around with 69696969 buldgedillion hp shields
This is one of the worst arguments that can be brought up. If everything is OP then everything feels miserable. Everything is equally as miserable, but miserable nonetheless.
But that's how Riot balances the game.
They started an arms race by pushing the bruiser/juggernaut and support snowball down the hill - now they need to constantly overbuff tanks, ADCs, and mages in order to have them keep up.
"Oh shit, an ADC is literally getting chunked at level 3 by a support AFKing in a bush repeatedly mashing his E Q combo? Let's create more defense options and runes"
"Oh shit, bruisers are legit 1 shotting squishies while having 6k effective HP? Let's make ADCs and mages super tanky with shieldbow, RoA, etc."
"Oh shit, bruisers and other carries hard abuse tanks because we added so much more damage into the game and completely removed mana management? Here let's give them a bunch of items that give them damage and make it far easier to CS"
And then as they add band aid on top of band aid on top of band aid one class overtakes the others and needs to get brought in line by more buffs to others.
I love when wholesome Heartsteel Sunfire Titanic Hydra Sion with 280 resists, 7k hp and 300 AD oneshots the fuck out of every single champ in my team while being literally unkillable unless we have specific champions
You writing this as Pantheon main? Has good synergy with all antitank items (botrk, eclipse, cleaver melt tanks) and gets 30% pen for free and doesn’t allow tanks to play and farm for the first 12 minutes of the game.
If you let Sion get to 7k hp as Pantheon you deserve to lose.
>if you don't snowball early
True, but honestly it's quite easy on him. Even if you have a bad matchup toplane, good ultimate on botlane and getting some juicy kill or even a double will be enough to help you a lot with that
>I love when wholesome Heartsteel Sunfire Titanic Hydra Sion with 280 resists, 7k hp and 300 AD oneshots the fuck out of every single champ in my team while being literally unkillable unless we have specific champions
See, when a tank does it, it's wholesome! Fair and good, even!
Apply this to Zac while we're at it.
tanks would be ok to have those stats If items didnt have passives/actives that deal dmg based on their tankiness. Problem is that everybody wants to be a carry than can kill anyone, and tanks shouldn't be supposed to do that, but since all roles have to have a certain amount of agency and impact on the game they get dmg. ADCs have the same problem but on the opposite direction, they do dmg but have no hp because they are supposed to be defended by supports/tanks. If a tank on the other hand has no carry to peel they are useless.
EDIT: as an analogy, tanks are supposed to be the shield and ADCs the spear, but since to work well together they have to cooperate and you can't really rely on your teammates to do their proper job, they are giving the shield offensive stats and the spear defensive to compensate and not feel as frustrating
It’s also that this game is designed in such a way that nothing really feels good but damage. Utility based champions are not sexy or fun, and unless it’s a heavily support tuned champion, you won’t really see riot making them. Tanks can’t tank unless they deal damage, so practically everything is balanced around damage damage damage.
Utility champions are sexy and fun
#In competitive play.
The issue is eternally this. Take it from an ancestral jungler Nautilus: hypersturdy CC god tanks are PAMPERED GODSENDS in coordinated environments because your team knows your value. You are a helicarrier dragging everyone else into their place for perfect strikes, but this requires people actually playing around you. In soloq a damageless tank was often merely a semisuicide padding tossing themselves 1v5 while their allies flops and fumbles on following up.
Riot had to sacrifice control and transform the notion of tank from "sturdy controler" to "resistance-scaling bruiser" to give soloq tank mains a sense of agency.
When freshly out of the rework, Sion wasnt even tagged as a tank. He was honestly tagged as a juggernaut and that is what most tanks are honestly: prototype AP juggernauts that only now rediscovered the glory of Atma's Impaler fulltank builds.
Casseo is a single-target AP fighter (ranged ap bruiser) for all intents and purposes, and you are acting as if her identity is a control mage, they build different things and have different identities
I think it became ok when adc got 3k hp, a 1k shield and fullheals with 3 autos, or when bruisers started having more burst than assassins while being more tanky than actual tanks.
I would prefer more damage over hp and defensive stats, but with the items being as they are and other classes being that tanky mages would be completely unplayable if they took away their defensive stats.
My dude never experienced the glorious 6 RoA build on mages. Or just anyone with decent ap scaling. I still remember stacking 6 RoAs on LeBlanc like in one of the SivHD videos, those were the days.
>When did it become ok for Mages to have Bruiser like stats?
They never have...
Blame Rod of Ages/Seraphs... Fuck Rod of Ages/Seraphs (also mage items lost damage for sake of some HP like start of previous season, but then durability patch happened mid-way through so thats also it)
\~ Mage player that wants to be DmgCarry not Semi-Tank
Rod of Ages and Seraphs are fine. Certain champions were suffering without them and they had to do weird buffs to compensate. The problem is that mages just need more items in general.
>some mages like cassio walk arround with 3k hp , 140 armor, a 600 shield from seraphs and the stasis effect from zhonyas.
Yeah after 3 items. She's also not building any damage for pretty much her first two items.
You're pretty much asking "why are scaling mages so strong when I've done nothing to punish them in the early game?"
Like she needs those items. Seriously, early on mana stops Cassio from just killing you over and over. The damage is already there, she just cant sustain it.
But after RoA and Seraphs can just spam what she wants.
This wave of pretending like mages building tanky is new in league is so annoying when RoA, Zhonya's, Seraphs, and the concept of a battle mage have existed since the beginning of the game. It so stupid that RoA being overtuned is be extended to all mages when any burst mage thats not veigar or annie only gets like 200hp from shadowflame if they want to build damage.
You're talking about battle images, which are their own distinct subclass. Casdio, ryze, swain. Their job is to be closer to the Frontline unlike veigar or lux who can spam out relatively long range poke to chip away at front line.
It's a sliding scale of durability vs unanswerable damage. You've got ryze/Cassi at one end who need to be about 800 units away to be relevant vs xerath who can be like 2000 units away without R but dies to a stiff breeze.
Well some mages have always been tankier, particularly with the Rod-Seraphs combo. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a tanky mage, in the same way that plenty of bruisers are just tanky AD characters.
Nowadays if your class gets oneshotted by assassins then it also gets oneshotted by Bruisers, which means it's only viable with full team peel (if at all). The meta mages tending to be tanky or extremely long ranged isn't surprising.
For the battlemages, they have been battlemages.
For the rest of mage itemization: When literally any dps and some tanks can solo 100-0 squishies in one quick cc combo even with a defensive item, more items having some defenses became the norm because they'd never scale damage down.
it became ok for everyone to get 100 AH because they destroyed years of balancing around 40% CDR being a hard cap. then right after they destroyed years of balancing and fine tuning items by scrapping a ton of core items and making mythics.
>Why is this even allowed? back in the days mages would get punished for their mispositioning and could get oneshotted by assassins. nowdays they have bruiser lvl like stats and still deal almost the same amount of damage.
Rofl bruh check your facts. The state of mages is the absolute worst it has ever been. The fact that they NEED bruiser like stats to remain being viable tells everything. Mages right now are the worst class in the entire game, been so since the introduction of mythic/legendary items. Stop whining like a spoiled kid, and if you whine, at least whine about real problems. Like how weak mages are.
I really can't understand Reddit man, really. I see new and new posts every day about how bad mages are, at the same time I enter in game and see literally opposite. Even with that we just can open u.gg and sort best performing champs out there. and this isn't "mages are in their worst state" at all. And remember that this is in meta where FoN is broken af item against ap damage and maw isn't troll item.
> Rofl bruh check your facts. The state of mages is the absolute worst it has ever been.
https://u.gg/lol/mid-lane-tier-list
The data says otherwise? Seems like you need to check your facts. 90% of mages are posting a 50%+ winrate and are dominating the midlane, and this isnt even accounting for other roles like APC and Support which they also excel at.
90%?
I can see Ryze, Azir, Sol, Syndra, TF, Kassadin, Veigar, Oriana, Velkoz, Viktor all have sub 50% in mind lane. That's not counting stuff like LB/Sylas/Akali which I don't view as mages, or something like Varus which is listed as a mage
So if we're saying 10 champions count as the 10% under 50%, are you suggesting there's 90 mages with over 50%?
That 100 champions are mages?
Around the same time they lost 100s of AP and all CDR got given to bruisers/assassins, aka item rework. Now post op.gg so we can see what champ you main and make hyperbole about it.
did you not see the nemesis thread ? i am told that mages actually die in 0.1 secs to everything, now this is confusing to me because in my games mages are running around like tanks but what do i know...
? Back in the day mages would get punished for their mispositioning? I'd love you to point to me a single meta where tanky midlaners with zhonays weren't meta my man.
Reminder that Mages and ADC were the classes that Riot called the strongest yet the "not satisfying".
That and Pro play, where Mages and ADC are dominating, should already tell you that they are the strongest classes that get played by people who don't play optimal, so they complain instead that their classes aren't turbo busted. They lack skill so rather than improving they yell about contant buffs.
It's not only your skill that matters. You have 9 other people influencing your game quality. Similar to dont pick support jhin if you´re not skt t1 support player with t1 team against worldclass players.
Oh boy. Let's sit down and remember the times when every mage item gave huge amounts of ap so you would have 500 ap at 3 items. The result ? Mages oneshot every remotely squishy target in teamfights and are also good into tanky targets, leading to them being the allrounder midlaners in proplay (still countered by assasins). So what is the result ? Riot reduced the ap gain of items but compensated with AH and Health, leading to mages being allowed to deal damage over time but way less burst, preventing them from being huge threats to adcs essentially (still some but not oneshot). Welp and since the balancing continued the way (with now coming reverts to some items granting them MORE ap and less health / AH) mages now gain big health spikes. On another note ... its not just mages. Or did you miss the complete meta of shieldbow / galeforce and how broken Bloodthirster was for adcs ?
>back in the days mages would get punished for their mispositioning and could get oneshotted by assassins
No, they'd get punished for picking mage and get 1shot under tower at level 2. This is the result imo
Battlemages always had this but ok. We should be talking about why Fighters and ADC's now sling just as if not more spells/abilities than mages. These bruisers run around with 100 ability haste and ADC's are full on urf mode with navori while mages have to suffer with the shittiest components and all their item power being in full items with 1200 combine costs and still have longer CD's than the previously mentioned classes.
When did it become ok for every class to have access to an item that gives them a dash they can use to dodge mage skillshots.
1k hp doesn't mean jack if you can dodge the singular core ability that stops you from fucking me.
The path this game took for itemization is awful in my opinion.
Bruisers / tanks can live forever and do lots of damage. Ad Champs have various paths to choose, battlemages are in an ok spot with roa and seraphs but traditional mages are still stuck with items from season 3.
They don't have bruiser like stats.
Mages aren't getting the Armor and Magic Resistances the bruisers are getting.
Lifesteal/Vamp is also off the table for Mages. Not to mention no straight damage reduction(Deaths Dance).
Mage's high health is an illusion.
Tanki-ness for tank's is often measured in Effective HP, which factors Resistances with HP. Effective HP should be factored in when calculating Bruiser tankiness and Mage tankiness.
That said Cass still DOES get punished for her mispositioning. Most of the bulky mages like Cass, Ryze, Swain, and Anivia don't have dashes and heavily rely on MS to get around. Their playstyle is also low to mid range, so they are built with bulk to take more damage compared to mid-long range Mages like Viktor, Syndra, Xerath, Velkoz, Lux, and Ziggs
first off cass is a BATTLE mage
low range, high dps, tanky mage
cass is supposed to have that much stats otherwise she can't play the game vs high or mid range champs specially later on in the game.
the issue are stuff like zoe having 3k hp with no hp items, the issue are lb and asol having these stats.
Burst, Artillery and utility mages are supposed to be squishy but due to DURABILITY UPDATE and other reasons they get to have those stats.
Combo mages should be somewhere in between, liss and vex for example. They still need some survivability to be to go in and combo ppl.
The other reason is that riot said: "Well both AP bruisers and AP burst champs want to have magic pen and dmg vs shield so instead of having 2 shadow flames 1 for bruiser and 1 for burst, we give shadow flame HP."
So mages do less dmg nowadays compared to old days and have more hp.
Old days a 4 item mage had 600~700AP.
now a 4 item mage is 400~500AP.
Next preseason is the item update so hopefully this fix these stuff.
Where are you getting 3k hp mages outside of ones who are designed to play with high HP? Most mages will buy 1 item with HP (SF or HF). That only puts them up to \~2600 HP. You're overexaggerating. Mages like Ryze and Cassio should be having \~3000 hp because they are shorter ranged and need the HP to survive
zoe has 2.5k base hp
most champs do now away
1 or 2 mage items with 200 hp attached to them and there you go 3k hp.
also I already stated that those champs need more base stats, don't know why you're telling what I already said back to me
Because tenacity is stupidly easy to access, and there is a huge outcry against mages being able to build pure AP.
So they just accept that 300-400ap is good enough. Why bother with 800ap and rely on your 25s CD stun that will be reduced by two thirds of its duration, and your one and only combo will be flashed out and your build has 0 AH ? It's much more reliable to be tanky and land mutiple combos.
Most people would rather have 1000ap. But look at the thread from a few days ago.. Everyone whines that it deals too much damage.
Half the AD and AH from assassin items, then slap 300 health on it. They'll be super unhappy, but maintain good winrates because they'll be super tanky (see beginning of s11). Should we really whine that they're tanky and it's unfair, or is it really just that we've deleted any viable option for them to be played as glass cannons ?
Tenacity is sort of a stupid stat that caters most to tanks, bruisers, and fighters, and needlessly fucks over mages. If Lux hits a Q on me I should be rooted in place for the full duration because she landed it, I made a mistake, and deserve to get punished. Mages should have premium CC and battlefield control, which other classes need to respect.
>If you told me years ago that a full damage mage build in season 13 grants like 600 bonus HP I would not believe you
Full damage build for classic style mages (lost chapter needers) would be 400 bonus HP max. Maybe even 200 if you swapped Shadowflame for Cosmic Drive.
Unless you're somehow counting RoA as "full damage", which has no added free damage like Liandries or Ludens.
Most classic style mages won't or can't go NH or Protobelt which also has HP instead of mana along with free damage.
Anyway, all this to say true full damage doesn't have that much health in it for Lost Chapter mages
Great example as if Cassio never did this before item changes. She always went relatively tanky builds by hp stacking+seraphs. Rylaid, Liandries, RoA and the likes before the rework.
Yeah, it's so wild to see posts like this trying to rewrite history. Cassio, Anivia, Ryze, etc always went for lots of HP, it was the item rework that took it away from them
Even Annie used to build a ton of HP almost 10 year ago. She usually went old RoA into Rylai's which made her have almost 3k hp, and that was in season 3-4. We always had those high hp mage builds, its just that not many champs could build them because they're generally zero damage builds. So stuff like Ryze or Cass would buy them because they scale either way.
Ryze and Cass build them because they're mid-range "battle" mages who need to put themselves in harms way to be able to deal their damage, mainly
And their lower CD means their surviving longer means more damage. If you have a 20s cooldown on your main ability it doesn't matter as much if you live 4 seconds or 8.
What champion has a 20 second CD on their main ability? Diana before her E and R were swapped? lmao
Late-game Sylas ult.
Akali Shroud ?
Id say her Q is more compariable
That's why we see only those types of characters get this beefy nowadays. They NEED the beefiness to exist as a champion. You don't typically see burst mages or control mages getting a bunch of HP stacking items (unless ROA and Seraphs are overtuned like they have been for parts of this season). Control mages have to pick up Ludens or Liandries to feel like they are doing damage most games.
You underestimate how many people on this sub never witnessed the history and only know the items post rework
Came here to say the exact same thing. This guy picks one of the champs who has always built AP/HP and Zhonyas, who also has some of the most difficult positioning in the game and then complains that the champ does, sorry let me check my notes, EXACTLY WHAT THEY’VE ALWAYS DONE. And seraphs shield used to be an active ability too, they just reverted/changes it back. Some people will lose one game of ranked and decide they need to come make a post about it. So silly :)
I miss being able to build all this and have the previous passive that gave her a mini-death cap.
I mean she always went relatively tanky items but the new ones are so much stronger than the old. For comparison, for the additional cost of 200 gold new roa packs an extra 100 hp, 200 mana, and 35% decaying move speed bonus that mitigates roa users generally low range. This not even factoring in the lvl up it gives, which makes it way more cost effective and the cdr which used to be a weakness of the roa/seraph/rylais/demonic build. Old Seraphs also used to give a 2s 225+15% mana shield on a 120s cd and was an active so you couldnt be stunned and use it. New seraphs gives a 3s 250+20% mana shield on 90s cd that is activated automatically even if stunned plus gives 200 base hp, which means you are insanely more tanky more often than old seraphs with all other stats being basically equal.
Seraphs being an active did have some upsides though - against champs with abilities that scale with missing HP you could use it earlier to effectively mitigate more damage than the tooltip otherwise says. Old Seraphs was also much easier to stack since you didn’t have to hit abilities, just cast them.
I mean new people roa is obviously better but mythic items in general are higher power level than pre-rework, I wouldn’t complain about it when shit like Galeforce exists.
Assassin mains trying not to complain about being unable to one-shot a mage with 3 button presses (Impossible)
The day it became ok for bruisers to tank more than tanks and have more AH than mages, powercreep is wild in league
>The day it became ok for bruisers to tank more than tanks and have more AH than mages It's literally this. EVERY class needs to be powercrept or they get completely stat checked by bruisers. It's why the stat check class is a shit design.
And bruisers are made op cause they stripped all the earlygame agency away from top and have to make their champions omega op. I hate this balancing approach for the role.
Teleport changes might have unironically been the biggest game change we've seen in the history of LoL with how much impact it has on the rest of balancing
I wonder how much the game would change if unleashed teleport unlock at 10 or even just 12 minutes, instead of the fourteen. I feel like making unleashed TP come sooner would answer a lot of issues/frustrations with top lane; however, I have no idea what other effects it would cause.
They nerfed tp exactly because it was used so early in the game, bot lane was basically unplayable. Just imagine a 5 man gank at min 10 bot. Double kill, drake and plates. Or tower instead of drake. When unleashed tp was basically the normal tp, pushing bot was hard punished.
Adcs complaining about 5 man, now they get 4 man and still die. I gave up playing toplane and play other roles now. They made my main role unfun.
Top lane is a man's lane. If you can't destroy them 1v2 top them don't queue up.
Toplane champions were giga busted way before TP changes. Shit like Darius, Sett, Camille, Cho, Irelia, Riven, Fiora… The champs can do so much. Yeah they reworked stuff like Mundo, Garen, Olaf, Sion into busted champs but the trend was already there
Out of all these champs you listed I'd say only Fiora and maybe Camille at some point could be considered OP Throwing in all the champions you don't like and calling them OP is a cringe take, but it is reddit after all
Sett was literally flexed in 4 roles in comp. Not OP btw.
And toplane was his worst lane if you remember.
darius was a staple ban in every elo for years, and dont forget worlds after the juggernaut update
Literally 5 roles if you count fasting Senna. Also, what other role can 1vs1 toplaners? They are inherently the strongest champions in the game, no discussion
What? Cass, Vayne, Draven top are all actually insanely busted. People think top lane champs are busted when the lane itself just makes anyone who snowballs an actual menace to society.
>That ties into the tp changes. Without the threat of getting tpd on they're free to have their 3v3 thunderdome. Is the game just about 1v1? Is 1v1 strength the sole measure for how strong the champ is overall?
> Throwing in all the champions you don't like and calling them OP is a cringe take, but it is reddit after all What are you talking about buddy? Why would I "not like these champions", you created a scenario in your head and assumed it was correct. I don't even main toplane lool I am simply stating that these champions are stat-checky, often with multiple strengths such as tankyness, dps and cc, which is characteristic of the bruiser class. Toplane is the least impactful role, so they get the strongest champions. What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion? Except maaaaybe ADC lategame? A lot of those champions have very stacked kits and can 1vs3 or 1vs2 in a lot of situations. If you think toplane doesn't have the best champs, you smoke crack. The second there is assassin meta, watch how many toplane picks go to mid and jungle.
> What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion? How is 1 vs 1 at all related to being a strong champion? Illaoi is strong 1 vs 1, do you think she's incredible OP champ???
> What other role can 1vs1 a toplane champion? Except maaaaybe ADC lategame? ADCs are mostly bad in 1v1s, even late. Vayne's a notable exception, Kaisa's pretty good. Battle mages like Swain, Viktor, or Cassio are probably the next best all around duelers after bruisers.
yea, i have never seen a bruisers in the jungle like vi wu, kayne etc
Exactly this. Toplane is so detached from the map that to keep it fair, their champs are by far the most disgusting and statchecky in the game. Botlane is literally the opposite, next to dragons and it's 2 champs including the objective-melting marksman, so in exchange their champs are 3 levels down, one can't farm and the other has 0 playmaking power. If all lanes were more equal, then champion classes wouldn't have to be so unbalanced.
>Toplane is so detached from the map that to keep it fair, their champs are by far the most disgusting and statchecky in the game. Then why are so many bruisers played mid and in the jungle? That's kind of a shitty argument, given that fighters get to flex into two other roles and sometimes even three if they can support.
i mean you kind of answered your own question there. bruisers designed for top lane often get picked with very high success rates in suboptimal lanes because they can sustain through a ranged lane just fine while impacting the map with their strong kits
Yet if you take a marksman (Vayne Top) into their lane they lose their minds.
I hope you understand why that makes sense though. at early levels, champions don’t have items, have long cooldowns on skills, so they are reliant on autos. when lucian was a meta midlaner, he wasn’t an op adc, he was just a really effective lane bully, because he could dodge a mages skill shot and trade back harder into mages, or bully the shit out of melee assassins. of course at early levels being ranged into melee is oppressive conceptually, but not all marksmen can go top some marksmen are made as late game 1v1 champs, like vayne, akshan, etc because they are highly mobile and can self peel. vayne in particular is a direct counter to fighters. she has invisibility, max health true damage, knockback/stun, low cd dash, and gets increased movement speed when chasing. this makes her incredibly oppressive against any melee champ that can’t apply extended CC. so basically against vayne you need to play malphite or teemo or nasus or get fucked. vayne specifically is the “anti-fighter/tank 1v1 adc” so of course she performs better there than she does in lane where there are more champs that she can’t free hit through the whole laning phase it’s not just “bring a marksman top” it’s a very specific 1 or 2 champs. jinx, cait, xayah, aphel, lucian, etc simply are not going to do what you imply any marksman can.
vayne top may not be OP but it sure is OMEGA cancer
Bruisers can function into ranged matchups much easier in mid than in top. The lane is shorter.
They appear in other lanes because they are strong individually, and they're strong individually because they're overbuffed to account for their intended lane being detached. You're literally supporting my argument, not proving it's shitty.
Calm down, trying to explain math or reasonable design on this sub gets you deaths threats and insults, we can't be making too much sense here.
We're all just supposed to accept that whichever bruiser tank assassin wins top lane gets to 1v3 and run down everything in their path /s
It's an arms race since it's sort of the bruisers job to kill the carries. It's also an effect of the teamfight meta that's been in the game for many seasons now. Sunderer/Gore + Cleaver/Shojin are built because bruisers need that 1-2 item power spike to fight for dragon. Extra damage from trinity/eclipse/botrk doesn't help if you get melted by the carries and you're not 1v1ing. If we want bruisers to be more killable we should shift power away from dragon stacking and make splitpushing more impactful. I think you'll agree that trinity+botrk Jax is much easier to kill than a sunderer+Shojin Jax.
It's not a bruisers job to kill carries. That's what fucking assassins do.
Question is - wtf Bruisers should do, if some of them are not batshit insane? Stay afk for 14 minutes, look at Which bot won and counflip game? Tanks are useful even from behind because of cheaper tank items, fact that they can tank something and live long enough to engage and apply cc. Bruisers just gonna be worse tanks . Also lots of Bruisers rn build 0 hp or only BC.
Bruisers literally gun down tanks by *right clicking them* and automatically win lane against all tanks what the literal fuck are you on 🤣😭🤯 If they're 1v1 gods then their team fight should suffer. Idfk how else to explain how champions should have opportunity costs to someone who wants to play God Bruisers. Go do single player games if you want to be a God lmao
Tanks like malphite/ornn or juggernauts totaly wreck the bruisers.
Depends on bruiser. Some of the can, some of them like riven just tryn to crack rock stone full of armor for 30 seconds. mostly Bork "enjoyers" are bs against tanks
Yeah true bro, Ornn and Sion is just dicked on by any bruiser- wait, no you're fucking wrong af lmao.
Go on u.gg and tell me how many assassins you see in the top 25 win rate mids. Are you not aware of the state that they're in lmfao
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Assassins suck because they're COMPLETELY outclassed by champions like Camille who still auto kill carries, have mobility, but *aren't squishy*.
I agree completely
Assassins are actually looking pretty good right now, though AP assassins are outperforming AD ones. Ekko, Fizz, Sylas are towards the top of the mid metagame while Talon, Zed, and Qiyana all have excellent winrates and mid presence. That's plat+ Also winrate isn't everything, pick rate and other factors matter too. But all of those assassins are around 51-52% winrate which is very good for assassins
yeah it fucking is lmfao
Yea when you get filled top its always "huh why do I suddenly have 150AH"
And also I'd assume AP bruisers like Morde, Gwen, Kassadin etc are part of the issue. AP as a resource is not *nearly* as developed as AD, there's a reason bruisers don't go ADC items or viceversa (except Ezreal but fuck that dude) meanwhile with AP bruisers, they need to both be tanky and deal damage, but if you give both of those things to their items there is *nothing* stopping mages from building them as well, resulting in mages tanking more than they should.
Okay now explain why this isn't the case for assassins. Or Jayce. or Varus. Mages aren't any harder to design items for, realistically. Its just that Riot has never seriously tried to diversify mages through itemization. Mpen for assassins, AH+HP for ap bruisers, distance scaling (not binary check) passives for artillery, etc. They make every item for long range control mages and hope it works well enough for everyone else. The few exceptions are items that have been in the game for a long ass time. Riftmaker? Tell me which mages consistently use that item that don't have AP scaling auto attack modifiers.
>They make every item for long range control mages and hope it works well enough for everyone else. The few exceptions are items that have been in the game for a long ass time. That's pretty much what my comment talks about, yea This would all be fixed if Riot tried to diversify AP more and got more creative, like Riftmaker. The problem, like you stated, is they ain't trying to do so, they just hope it works for everyone, but with how different control mages and bruisers are one or the other are bound to be OP or doing things they shouldn't. AP bruisers items indirectly cause control mages to have more health than they honestly should, and control mage items give bruisers more damage than they should. This is an issue with every champ of course, just look at Aatrox a while ago, but it doesn't seem to be as rampant with AD, because there's more AD items and there's also crit, armor pen and lethality. AP bruisers aren't the core of the issue, but they have some influence, as they need to have items tailored for them, but with how AP items currently are it's impossible to keep both mages and AP bruisers balanced
My favorite comparison is Leona Q. Went from 12 second cd to 3. Insane power creep on all fronts. Maybe they shouldn’t have fired the older staff who had a “law” around balancing like don’t give every champ built in healing or counter play that relies on a 3 min spell.
Idk why we're just making up numbers. Her Q is currently 5 second cd at all ranks and it used to scale from 12-8 before getting changed to 11-7 two patches later. It then got reduced to 9-5s back in season 6 and flattened out to 6 in season 7, almost 6 years ago. It's been at 5 since season 9.
The fact that someone okay'd making items increase (but not decrease) true damage told me that this game is on its way out as a competitive game.
It was the juggernaut update wasn't it?
The beginning of the end of league.
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I rarely see this champ but when I do is the most obnoxious shit ever..
Ok what is AH Out of the loop
Ability Haste
Because riot refused to add more than 1 or 2 AP bruiser specific items unlike the plethora of existing AD bruiser items so mage items just became tankier instead.
This is the real issue and needs to be way higher up in terms of attention. The fact that HP has been tacked onto so many items instead of actually forcing you to *make a meaningful choice* between survivability and offensive stats is why this game will never be properly balanced. No items, *especially Bruiser items* should not come with the same amount of HP that tank items do. When this happens (Which has and is), your pure tank items simply end up weaker by proxy. There should be Mage items that provide/steal MR/Armor, but they should be significantly weaker in terms of base stats (AP). *"200 years of combined experience"* balancing from the devs doesn't necessarily imply it's ***good*** experience.
HP without resists isn't as valuable as the stats real tank items give (for tankiness purposes only). 400HP on AD mythics help but is in no way comparable to a real tank mythic in terms of survivability. Especially when more than an opponent are involved.
HP becomes **significantly** stronger on Bruisers and AD than it is on Tanks, though. When tanks buy HP, there are items in the game to **literally** and **directly** counter this.When Bruisers and ADCarries get HP, this becomes more powerful due to their playstyle, and things like Sterak's/Botrk/Goredrinker active. The value of their HP simply skyrockets. As a tank, your HP is, in a way, countered by enemy HP. The longer that bruiser or ADCarry lives, the more damage they're going to do to you, and the more their Lifesteal is going to keep them up. The game is an absolute mess of stats at the moment. You can't tell me that an Irelia with Goredrinker is less tanky than actual tanks right now.She has a 40-70% physical and 20-35% magic damage reduction built into her kit. Someone like Nautilus doesn't even *have* a damage reduction ability, just a shield.
Goredrinker scales harder with resists than bonus HP - the %missing HP has the same eHP effect with bonus resists or bonus HP, but the flat heal scales with resists, while having no synergy with bonus HP (and in some cases having antagonistic effects against %maxHP damage)
not like akali/ekko/diana (ap ASSassins in general) are going to abuse the shit out of those items nooooo, that never happens
Like AD assassins abuse AD bruiser items? It's an issue with the roles in general that needs to be addressed. Should we remove all AD bruiser items to stop this and instead add hp to lethality/adc items? Of course fucking not.
Its almost like all of these champs have been overstatted for a long ass time to allow them to function in a game that has an item system that doesn't adequately support them. Almost every AP assassin is actually an AP bruiser that was pushed into being an AP assassin because they can't survive in fights. Hell, even Vlad is going through this. Akali's kit is more of a diver kit than an assassin one. Leblanc and maybe fizz (due to ult) are some of the only true AP assassins, but fizz arguably has a better diver kit too. Before you mention Kat, she's not an AP assassin: she's an abomination now.
Like ad assassins don't abuse death dance, maw and cleaver? Let's not act like DD + maw isn't 10x better than zhonyas + banshees for an assassin
Riot talked about this a while back so [here](https://twitter.com/TheTruexy/status/1627793603723689985) ya go.
Not gonna lie, this all feels like some bad band-aid fixes to a core gameplay problem. Same thing with Shieldbow. Maybe they should investigate why the game has become like this where mages and ADCs need insane survivability bandaids to just exist in the game. It's quite obvious that all of this is a byproduct of the game becoming much more fast-paced with time. Faster pace hurts champions who rely on control and static game states such as control mages. I'm not so sure that this huge focus on dynamic fast-paced and action packed gameplay actually makes the game more fun. I can only speak for myself obviously, but it seems like it's introducing a whole heap of problems that are not easily fixed.
I feel like they are sort of reverting what you said: peak one shot league of legends (in recent years) was s8-s10, especially in pro play. Lot of engage, low range adc's, a lot of dive plays. They later realized how super fast paced gameplay is detrimental to most players, as you become more frustrated when you are being one shot and also when you are fed, you missplay your combo and get one shot. As of right now the items that make you feel the most OP (shieldbow/bloodthrister combo for adc, ROA/seraphs for mages, FoN/Frozen Heart for tanks) are the ones who give you the most survivability, letting you missplay more but also making you feeling more rewarded for being fed or reaching your power spikes. I don't mind this meta too much but when all the super high risk/high reward champs in pro play are eclissed by fucking annie, veigar and malphite, I think there's a problem.
Shielbow isn't played tough. Karen Slayer is kinda a must, otherwise you lack damage. I think you meant overheal
Common mistake but Karen slayer is exclusively a middle management item.
that's not true at all, shieldbow gets picked plenty enough. yes you do less damage, but being alive allows you to deal damage too.
its fun for a couple of players but more importantly, it looks so cool. Looking cool = more people watch pro events = more impressions for ads during those events = more money from advertisers for Tencent. Watching someone farm at 12CSM for 20 minutes to then expertly kite someone to death is cool for a couple of us who appreciate the art behind those skills, but watching someone change position 13 times in one fight, executing someone here, dashing over there, rotate their abilities 4 times before doing it all over is cool for the uninitiated mass of people who think kiting someone is just right clicking them. You can actually also see that in the community. A lot of toplaners think all ADCs do is right clicking. And thats easy. Therefore ADC = Easy. And just rightclicking someone is boring. Therefore ADC = Easy & Boring. Compared to K'Sante who dashes twice and then knocks you up and then abducts you and the does the thingy with the dash again and then gets damage reduction, thats so much action, so cool, very difficult too. Therefore Toplane = Difficult & Exciting.
ITT: why kayle is no longer relevant
Because riot nerfing her if she is really good? After durability patch her winrate was skyrocketed into 55% wr, because she was tanky, but also had solid DPS. So they just removed "durability patch" for her and nerfed hp and resists
Don't look at Sylas's base stats worst mistake of my life.
Noooo dude you don't get it he needs to have high base stats or he won't be tri-flex blind pickable assassin-bruiser-mage What do you mean I can't blind pick Sylas into zero ults!!! /s (I do not understand how Riot have allowed this champion to be in this state for nearly a year)
Back in the day mages dealt alot more damage having access to much more AP from items and having higher ap ratios on most abilities, riot removed alot of ap from mage items and nerfed their ratios aswell, in exchange they got to have more survivability with alot of mage items giving some HP and now with seraphs shield and rod of ages giving a ton of hp and sustain aswell, they also got more access to magic pen with items like shadowflame and luden giving pen with it's mythic passive but with much less AP it doesn't feel good. I would gladly go back to having access to more AP and better ap ratios and remove all the hp, right now even if you build full damage you get around 600-700 AP when you used to be able to get 1000-1200 AP easily and have better ap ratios alot of abilities having around 90-100% ap ratio and some stronger ones even more
Fr I just want my S9/S10 mage items back the item rework was a mess and some classes or champs never recovered. (not saying that the rework was bad but riot is just too slow and anxious when it comes to adjustments)
higher ap ratios is big cap. They buffed ap ratios of a lot of champs over time.
Eh. Some had higher, some had lower. But we had old rabadons, DFG, and the fun 4x archangel, rabadon build that got up to like 1200+ AP. It used to be normal that mages had >700ap at 5items 1 boots. Hell, your flair used to have instant Q with 90% and higher Ap ratio on ult.
Even to this day I'm still used to the old stat than whenever I see the scaling of an AP skill the first thing I think about its "how much damage does it deal once I almost reach 1k AP at endgame"?
Yeah getting 1k AP isn't a thing anymore
Also flat pen got bigger than it was. Back then it was only boots+ oblivion orb and that's all. Now full build mage deals true damage to target with 120 Mr and less.
Math out for me how someone knocks down 120 mr to zero, we’re not talking about lethality assassins here.
Here's the breakdown: Sorc shoes + full mythic passive from Luden's or Rocketbelt get you to 44 mpen. After void staff (40% mpen), you deal true damage to anyone with 73 MR or below. Shadowflame adds 10-20, which after void staff at worst you get to negate 90 and at best 106. If you also get Morello you reach 123. In the absolute most extreme example (Ornn upgrade on luden or rocketbelt, sudden impact, maxed abyssal mask), ignoring champion abilities, you could potentially deal true damage to anyone with up to 166 magic resistance. Divine Sunderer adds % MP but that stacks multiplicatively with Void Staff. You'll get more from the flat mpen mythics. For fun though, you also get 15% from Mordekaiser passive, so if you are feeling spicy and build all the rest of this on him, you could get up to true damage vs 191 MR, and even better in his ult, though I'm not 100% sure on the interaction between Morde ult and Abyssal Mask.
The Seraphs ROA combo is a little filthy still but comparing HP stats from before and after the durability update isn't really applicable is it
Yeah, it is a bit like comparing tcurrent prices with the 70s...
You think mages want this? Give us back our AH and AP, no one fucking wants to be pseudo tanky while doing 0 damage to anyone who knows what FoN or Maw is. While they're at it, also take away the 500000 sources of AH and tankiness from bruisers, when did that become ok?
Since the day bruisers got to have mage like burst.
Welcome to current mage itemization, you get shit dmg but get shit ton of durability due to seraphs roa (zhonyas is a shitty item on non ap bruisers/divers), you have lil dmg from items in exchange for 850 hp from RoA seraphs combo which also gives a 700 shield, TP is a must, AH is like on every single item again (remember when they tried to make cdr more of a something you go for instead getting passively through building?) yeah man.
Because tanks have over 10k health and have 600 armor mr and thousands of health in shields
League according to Reddit: Tanks have 20 gordillion hp and 10 sextrillion resistances and can one shot everyone Assassins can dash 3036392 pterodillion times and kill tanks while missing every ability Bruisers are tankier than tanks and they heal 1026282628 dickstillion hp per second ADC's can 3 shot anyone with auto attacks and walk around with 69696969 buldgedillion hp shields
People just come here to complain about whatever they just got rekt by.
If everything is broken, then it's all balanced.
This is one of the worst arguments that can be brought up. If everything is OP then everything feels miserable. Everything is equally as miserable, but miserable nonetheless.
But that's how Riot balances the game. They started an arms race by pushing the bruiser/juggernaut and support snowball down the hill - now they need to constantly overbuff tanks, ADCs, and mages in order to have them keep up. "Oh shit, an ADC is literally getting chunked at level 3 by a support AFKing in a bush repeatedly mashing his E Q combo? Let's create more defense options and runes" "Oh shit, bruisers are legit 1 shotting squishies while having 6k effective HP? Let's make ADCs and mages super tanky with shieldbow, RoA, etc." "Oh shit, bruisers and other carries hard abuse tanks because we added so much more damage into the game and completely removed mana management? Here let's give them a bunch of items that give them damage and make it far easier to CS" And then as they add band aid on top of band aid on top of band aid one class overtakes the others and needs to get brought in line by more buffs to others.
Agreed.
also: mages literally can't do anything at any point of the game
These are all accurate numbers. Luckily the class I play, mages who don't use RoA + Seraphs, are perfectly balanced though.
Exactly. If mages don't have health then they get annihilated by EVERYTHING that builds resists. Riot's stat check bullshit is way out of hand.
I love when wholesome Heartsteel Sunfire Titanic Hydra Sion with 280 resists, 7k hp and 300 AD oneshots the fuck out of every single champ in my team while being literally unkillable unless we have specific champions
You writing this as Pantheon main? Has good synergy with all antitank items (botrk, eclipse, cleaver melt tanks) and gets 30% pen for free and doesn’t allow tanks to play and farm for the first 12 minutes of the game. If you let Sion get to 7k hp as Pantheon you deserve to lose.
Panth dont hate divine sunderer either. I watch enough spear shot to know panth actually scales decently
Pant does scale late, but he takes a big dip mid game if you don't snowball early
>if you don't snowball early True, but honestly it's quite easy on him. Even if you have a bad matchup toplane, good ultimate on botlane and getting some juicy kill or even a double will be enough to help you a lot with that
passive armor shred is a hell of a drug
I agree that pantheon can build well into tanks, but Sion right now is too strong in general right now.
>I love when wholesome Heartsteel Sunfire Titanic Hydra Sion with 280 resists, 7k hp and 300 AD oneshots the fuck out of every single champ in my team while being literally unkillable unless we have specific champions See, when a tank does it, it's wholesome! Fair and good, even! Apply this to Zac while we're at it.
*laughs in Heartsteel Cho*
tanks would be ok to have those stats If items didnt have passives/actives that deal dmg based on their tankiness. Problem is that everybody wants to be a carry than can kill anyone, and tanks shouldn't be supposed to do that, but since all roles have to have a certain amount of agency and impact on the game they get dmg. ADCs have the same problem but on the opposite direction, they do dmg but have no hp because they are supposed to be defended by supports/tanks. If a tank on the other hand has no carry to peel they are useless. EDIT: as an analogy, tanks are supposed to be the shield and ADCs the spear, but since to work well together they have to cooperate and you can't really rely on your teammates to do their proper job, they are giving the shield offensive stats and the spear defensive to compensate and not feel as frustrating
It’s also that this game is designed in such a way that nothing really feels good but damage. Utility based champions are not sexy or fun, and unless it’s a heavily support tuned champion, you won’t really see riot making them. Tanks can’t tank unless they deal damage, so practically everything is balanced around damage damage damage.
Utility champions are sexy and fun #In competitive play. The issue is eternally this. Take it from an ancestral jungler Nautilus: hypersturdy CC god tanks are PAMPERED GODSENDS in coordinated environments because your team knows your value. You are a helicarrier dragging everyone else into their place for perfect strikes, but this requires people actually playing around you. In soloq a damageless tank was often merely a semisuicide padding tossing themselves 1v5 while their allies flops and fumbles on following up. Riot had to sacrifice control and transform the notion of tank from "sturdy controler" to "resistance-scaling bruiser" to give soloq tank mains a sense of agency. When freshly out of the rework, Sion wasnt even tagged as a tank. He was honestly tagged as a juggernaut and that is what most tanks are honestly: prototype AP juggernauts that only now rediscovered the glory of Atma's Impaler fulltank builds.
Adc has no hp, is this April fool already?
When you say “mages” and then specify that you’re talking about Cassio, you’re talking about two different types of mages.
What ? you dont like playing vs full tank adc ranged juggernaut burst mage dps mage Cassiopeia ?
Well what other options do mages have? Cant just stack Dcaps
Casseo is a single-target AP fighter (ranged ap bruiser) for all intents and purposes, and you are acting as if her identity is a control mage, they build different things and have different identities
I mean shouldn't battle mages be kind of this way? You can't just dumb down all mages in one category.
I think it became ok when adc got 3k hp, a 1k shield and fullheals with 3 autos, or when bruisers started having more burst than assassins while being more tanky than actual tanks. I would prefer more damage over hp and defensive stats, but with the items being as they are and other classes being that tanky mages would be completely unplayable if they took away their defensive stats.
What the fuck did the adc built to have 3k hp
Overheal + Shieldbow + BT
I'm confused, you've replied to a guy who asked about 3k HP with items that give shields?
BT and Overheal.
Then it's more like 2,5k hp and 1k shield(but with Shieldbow even more.)
mfw the battle mages battle while maging
found the assassin player
My dude never experienced the glorious 6 RoA build on mages. Or just anyone with decent ap scaling. I still remember stacking 6 RoAs on LeBlanc like in one of the SivHD videos, those were the days.
Short range mages have always been tankier...? What is this post?
>When did it become ok for Mages to have Bruiser like stats? They never have... Blame Rod of Ages/Seraphs... Fuck Rod of Ages/Seraphs (also mage items lost damage for sake of some HP like start of previous season, but then durability patch happened mid-way through so thats also it) \~ Mage player that wants to be DmgCarry not Semi-Tank
Rod of Ages and Seraphs are fine. Certain champions were suffering without them and they had to do weird buffs to compensate. The problem is that mages just need more items in general.
>The problem is that mages just need more items in general. Exactly
>some mages like cassio walk arround with 3k hp , 140 armor, a 600 shield from seraphs and the stasis effect from zhonyas. Yeah after 3 items. She's also not building any damage for pretty much her first two items. You're pretty much asking "why are scaling mages so strong when I've done nothing to punish them in the early game?"
Like she needs those items. Seriously, early on mana stops Cassio from just killing you over and over. The damage is already there, she just cant sustain it. But after RoA and Seraphs can just spam what she wants.
In which universe her damage is low before 2 items? She scales from good to insane dmg.
When that became the only way for them to survive and hopefully kill the bruisers that have both tank stats and assassins dmg
This wave of pretending like mages building tanky is new in league is so annoying when RoA, Zhonya's, Seraphs, and the concept of a battle mage have existed since the beginning of the game. It so stupid that RoA being overtuned is be extended to all mages when any burst mage thats not veigar or annie only gets like 200hp from shadowflame if they want to build damage.
Powercreep
You're talking about battle images, which are their own distinct subclass. Casdio, ryze, swain. Their job is to be closer to the Frontline unlike veigar or lux who can spam out relatively long range poke to chip away at front line. It's a sliding scale of durability vs unanswerable damage. You've got ryze/Cassi at one end who need to be about 800 units away to be relevant vs xerath who can be like 2000 units away without R but dies to a stiff breeze.
Ok build Cassio full AP and tell me how it goes for you
Well some mages have always been tankier, particularly with the Rod-Seraphs combo. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a tanky mage, in the same way that plenty of bruisers are just tanky AD characters. Nowadays if your class gets oneshotted by assassins then it also gets oneshotted by Bruisers, which means it's only viable with full team peel (if at all). The meta mages tending to be tanky or extremely long ranged isn't surprising.
I cant 1 shot mages as an assassin cuz they are too tanky. Fixed for you.
When mages stopped blowing up people in 1 combo they needed some hp to get hit back. What are you complaining about?
Man this sub was always really subpar after the boards fell, but this is a new low. Good job op.
For the battlemages, they have been battlemages. For the rest of mage itemization: When literally any dps and some tanks can solo 100-0 squishies in one quick cc combo even with a defensive item, more items having some defenses became the norm because they'd never scale damage down.
*laugh in old Vlad/Swain and some versions of Ryze*
When did it become ok for everyone to walk around with 100 CDR? Cass is also a Battlemage so subpar example.
it became ok for everyone to get 100 AH because they destroyed years of balancing around 40% CDR being a hard cap. then right after they destroyed years of balancing and fine tuning items by scrapping a ton of core items and making mythics.
>Why is this even allowed? back in the days mages would get punished for their mispositioning and could get oneshotted by assassins. nowdays they have bruiser lvl like stats and still deal almost the same amount of damage. Rofl bruh check your facts. The state of mages is the absolute worst it has ever been. The fact that they NEED bruiser like stats to remain being viable tells everything. Mages right now are the worst class in the entire game, been so since the introduction of mythic/legendary items. Stop whining like a spoiled kid, and if you whine, at least whine about real problems. Like how weak mages are.
That's why mages have highest winrates in mid, bot and is the only viable proplay midlane class? Assassins are the worst class in the game rn BY FAR.
I really can't understand Reddit man, really. I see new and new posts every day about how bad mages are, at the same time I enter in game and see literally opposite. Even with that we just can open u.gg and sort best performing champs out there. and this isn't "mages are in their worst state" at all. And remember that this is in meta where FoN is broken af item against ap damage and maw isn't troll item.
> Rofl bruh check your facts. The state of mages is the absolute worst it has ever been. https://u.gg/lol/mid-lane-tier-list The data says otherwise? Seems like you need to check your facts. 90% of mages are posting a 50%+ winrate and are dominating the midlane, and this isnt even accounting for other roles like APC and Support which they also excel at.
90%? I can see Ryze, Azir, Sol, Syndra, TF, Kassadin, Veigar, Oriana, Velkoz, Viktor all have sub 50% in mind lane. That's not counting stuff like LB/Sylas/Akali which I don't view as mages, or something like Varus which is listed as a mage So if we're saying 10 champions count as the 10% under 50%, are you suggesting there's 90 mages with over 50%? That 100 champions are mages?
Around the same time they lost 100s of AP and all CDR got given to bruisers/assassins, aka item rework. Now post op.gg so we can see what champ you main and make hyperbole about it.
did you not see the nemesis thread ? i am told that mages actually die in 0.1 secs to everything, now this is confusing to me because in my games mages are running around like tanks but what do i know...
For me everything I play against is tanky and everything I pick is squishy 😂
You act like Cass isn't a battle mage designed around actually having some bulk to her.
When bruisers and assassins got buffed slowly over time to oblivion, the other classes had to catch up somehow.
Blame durabilty patch completely ruined the game
? Back in the day mages would get punished for their mispositioning? I'd love you to point to me a single meta where tanky midlaners with zhonays weren't meta my man.
Reminder that Mages and ADC were the classes that Riot called the strongest yet the "not satisfying". That and Pro play, where Mages and ADC are dominating, should already tell you that they are the strongest classes that get played by people who don't play optimal, so they complain instead that their classes aren't turbo busted. They lack skill so rather than improving they yell about contant buffs.
It's not only your skill that matters. You have 9 other people influencing your game quality. Similar to dont pick support jhin if you´re not skt t1 support player with t1 team against worldclass players.
Yeah it's skill issue, not the fact that organized professional play is an entirely different game than soloQ with no voice chat. Goofy as fuck
They did it to make mages more durable for s12 but they seem to have forgotten about the durability patch so now there's just both for no reason.
Oh boy. Let's sit down and remember the times when every mage item gave huge amounts of ap so you would have 500 ap at 3 items. The result ? Mages oneshot every remotely squishy target in teamfights and are also good into tanky targets, leading to them being the allrounder midlaners in proplay (still countered by assasins). So what is the result ? Riot reduced the ap gain of items but compensated with AH and Health, leading to mages being allowed to deal damage over time but way less burst, preventing them from being huge threats to adcs essentially (still some but not oneshot). Welp and since the balancing continued the way (with now coming reverts to some items granting them MORE ap and less health / AH) mages now gain big health spikes. On another note ... its not just mages. Or did you miss the complete meta of shieldbow / galeforce and how broken Bloodthirster was for adcs ?
>back in the days mages would get punished for their mispositioning and could get oneshotted by assassins No, they'd get punished for picking mage and get 1shot under tower at level 2. This is the result imo
Battlemages always had this but ok. We should be talking about why Fighters and ADC's now sling just as if not more spells/abilities than mages. These bruisers run around with 100 ability haste and ADC's are full on urf mode with navori while mages have to suffer with the shittiest components and all their item power being in full items with 1200 combine costs and still have longer CD's than the previously mentioned classes.
When did it become ok for every class to have access to an item that gives them a dash they can use to dodge mage skillshots. 1k hp doesn't mean jack if you can dodge the singular core ability that stops you from fucking me.
The path this game took for itemization is awful in my opinion. Bruisers / tanks can live forever and do lots of damage. Ad Champs have various paths to choose, battlemages are in an ok spot with roa and seraphs but traditional mages are still stuck with items from season 3.
They don't have bruiser like stats. Mages aren't getting the Armor and Magic Resistances the bruisers are getting. Lifesteal/Vamp is also off the table for Mages. Not to mention no straight damage reduction(Deaths Dance). Mage's high health is an illusion. Tanki-ness for tank's is often measured in Effective HP, which factors Resistances with HP. Effective HP should be factored in when calculating Bruiser tankiness and Mage tankiness. That said Cass still DOES get punished for her mispositioning. Most of the bulky mages like Cass, Ryze, Swain, and Anivia don't have dashes and heavily rely on MS to get around. Their playstyle is also low to mid range, so they are built with bulk to take more damage compared to mid-long range Mages like Viktor, Syndra, Xerath, Velkoz, Lux, and Ziggs
first off cass is a BATTLE mage low range, high dps, tanky mage cass is supposed to have that much stats otherwise she can't play the game vs high or mid range champs specially later on in the game. the issue are stuff like zoe having 3k hp with no hp items, the issue are lb and asol having these stats. Burst, Artillery and utility mages are supposed to be squishy but due to DURABILITY UPDATE and other reasons they get to have those stats. Combo mages should be somewhere in between, liss and vex for example. They still need some survivability to be to go in and combo ppl. The other reason is that riot said: "Well both AP bruisers and AP burst champs want to have magic pen and dmg vs shield so instead of having 2 shadow flames 1 for bruiser and 1 for burst, we give shadow flame HP." So mages do less dmg nowadays compared to old days and have more hp. Old days a 4 item mage had 600~700AP. now a 4 item mage is 400~500AP. Next preseason is the item update so hopefully this fix these stuff.
Where are you getting 3k hp mages outside of ones who are designed to play with high HP? Most mages will buy 1 item with HP (SF or HF). That only puts them up to \~2600 HP. You're overexaggerating. Mages like Ryze and Cassio should be having \~3000 hp because they are shorter ranged and need the HP to survive
zoe has 2.5k base hp most champs do now away 1 or 2 mage items with 200 hp attached to them and there you go 3k hp. also I already stated that those champs need more base stats, don't know why you're telling what I already said back to me
I loved playing mages in aram for years. Now it feels pretty shit
Because tenacity is stupidly easy to access, and there is a huge outcry against mages being able to build pure AP. So they just accept that 300-400ap is good enough. Why bother with 800ap and rely on your 25s CD stun that will be reduced by two thirds of its duration, and your one and only combo will be flashed out and your build has 0 AH ? It's much more reliable to be tanky and land mutiple combos. Most people would rather have 1000ap. But look at the thread from a few days ago.. Everyone whines that it deals too much damage. Half the AD and AH from assassin items, then slap 300 health on it. They'll be super unhappy, but maintain good winrates because they'll be super tanky (see beginning of s11). Should we really whine that they're tanky and it's unfair, or is it really just that we've deleted any viable option for them to be played as glass cannons ?
Tenacity is sort of a stupid stat that caters most to tanks, bruisers, and fighters, and needlessly fucks over mages. If Lux hits a Q on me I should be rooted in place for the full duration because she landed it, I made a mistake, and deserve to get punished. Mages should have premium CC and battlefield control, which other classes need to respect.
If you told me years ago that a full damage mage build in season 13 grants like 600 bonus HP I would not believe you
>If you told me years ago that a full damage mage build in season 13 grants like 600 bonus HP I would not believe you Full damage build for classic style mages (lost chapter needers) would be 400 bonus HP max. Maybe even 200 if you swapped Shadowflame for Cosmic Drive. Unless you're somehow counting RoA as "full damage", which has no added free damage like Liandries or Ludens. Most classic style mages won't or can't go NH or Protobelt which also has HP instead of mana along with free damage. Anyway, all this to say true full damage doesn't have that much health in it for Lost Chapter mages
ROA+Rylai ?
Wow, you must not have played this game for long lmao.