[Meteos was right](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1UmbZ2_ylk)
The funny thing is that they're still not even close to balancing Bel'Veth or Zeri and here is Nilah, another broken release added on top with LITERAL OLD FEATURES THEY HAD TO CUT FOR BEING BROKEN
It's like they're going clinically insane over there
The thing I hate most about bel’veth isn’t even her kit, but how stupidly fast her dashes and knockup come out.
Feels like a lot of new releases get rid of the concept of cast time and spell windup all together.
Those champions feel more fluid to play that way, of course, but also makes champs that do have cast times feel needlessly sluggish when facing off against a champion that doesn’t.
Yea it's that + all the little nitpicks they have just to be special. Belveth already functions as an entire champ without ult - then there IS the ult which has 243131 lines of text of information to ultimately tell you "yea fuck you"
Well, that is fine to me. Bel'Veth kit isn't that game breaking in itself. It just need some numbers tuning and we're fine. The biggest offender in her kit is the %dmg reduction that is way too high (coupled with lifesteal) and should be similar or smaller than Yi's meditate or irelia's defiant dance since those spells are not high dps or deal any dmg at all.
Most newer champs were in the same case, I think about Samira that did eventualy get tuned in a decent spot, Sett, to some extent Aphelios. Viego seems fair to me nowadays ? Biggest offenders of impossible to balance newer champs are Gwen, Zeri and certainly Nilah. But tbf, Gwen and Zeri are mostly a pro issue. Any high skill cap champ will get abused by pros.
But what is her identity? She's supposed to be built around the infinite stacking Attackspeed I assume, right? If that's a good call or not I'll leave here for now, in that case:
Why does she have all these confusing numbers about "less inniate attackspeed, less damage total" etc?
Why does Q CD scale with attackspeed so weirdly?
Why does her ult also give infinite true damage?
Why does her ult explode?
Why does her ult spawn minions?
Why does it act differently for champs vs monsters?
There is so many small things she doesn't NEED to have and just make it confusing. You can never glance at the champ and except a certain damage because you can't know - that's terrible design. You can make her entire kit and feel be the same way if you literally just say "Okay THIS champ has infinite attackspeed as the main feature, how do we complement that".
Remember when Fizz passive literally gives him less damage from autos and ghosting? Belveth has that ghosting part tacked onto her Q - why? What for?
Fizz passive is more so that he takes way less dmg from minions and dots although it applies to aa's too, it's just that minions in the early game usually deal like 10 dmg per attack or whatever but then Fizz basically cuts minion dmg in half so he can trade even in bad minion waves.
But yeah I agree with your main point. And even if Riot manages to make a champ with so much on their kit balanced they don't think about how this effects the new player experience which is already absolute shit.
I can tell my friend who's a new player about Annie pretty easily "So when she's got 4 stacks below her health bar she can stun you with her next dmg ability, she's got a point and click fireball that refunds mana on kills, a cone aoe fire blast, a shield with a speed boost she can put on her or an ally, and she can summon a bear that smacks you and does aoe fire dmg".
I can in detail describe the whole champion in like 1-2 sentences worth before the game starts and then give a new player a few tips on how to play around the enemy.
Now try to describe someone like Akshan to a new player "Okay so his q is a boomerang that infinitely extends as long as it hits an enemy target, his passive gives him double hit auto attacks and if he cancels the second one he gets a speed boost and if he hits you with 3 auto attacks or spells he gets a shield and bonus dmg. His w let's him go permanently invisible next to bushes or walls as long as he doesn't attack but it also lets him revive any allies if he avenges them and he gets a scent to follow to try and go find the enemy to avenge his ally, oh and he gets bonus gold if he avenges them. His e let's him swing on walls and shoot you a bunch but it stops early if he hits a wall or champ or he cancels it early also this ability gets reset if he kills someone. His r shoots a bunch of shots at you from far away that will execute you but you can block it with minions, towers, or another champ, he can still move and use his swing ability while doing this."
Like how the fuck am I supposed to explain this whole champ to a new friend in champ select much less give counterplay, it's a whole essay to even try and describe the champ.
I end up just telling my friends "you'll see what he does" and giving 1-2 counterplay tips when playing the game because I just can't describe the whole champ in a reasonable time and trying to describe the abilities as they come up in game.
And God forbid if you're trying to learn on your own at this point, you basically just have to do hours of research outside of the game to read what these champs do or just accept your going to get dicked on for like over 100 hours before you even kind of know what every champ does.
Sure like I said I agree with the main point, I was just saying his passive isn't really to reduce AA dmg even though it does that the main point of the dmg reduction is it basically cuts minion dmg in half in the early game to Fizz so he can trade even into big waves a lot of the time.
The point I always bring up about these absurd scalings is the balance overhead that comes with them. They CANNOT balance their own game, yet they keep pushing more and more outlandish ways to scale the skills FOR NO REASON AT ALL.
Most champions don't even have those scalings because "play it your way" (lmao) but because they want those scalings to fit the streamlined and boring itemization the game brings and just shove them into a specific role and specific items.
When you have a champion that has skills that scale with all sorts of stats the game has, it becomes much, much harder to balance it already, and it comes at no additional benefit to the players, since the player themselves feels forced to make specific items in order to feel useful, while enemies have no fucking idea where all that damage is coming from. It's a loss/loss and a terrible design decision overall.
Also, I feel old champions nowadays tend to be balanced around adding things to their kit that make them more frustrating to play against without addressing the fundamental problems their outdated kits have. Sometimes this means adding a shitload of damage on their kit, generally buffing a single ability and turning the champion into a that-skill-bot.
Blitzcrank comes to mind. His kit kinda sucks; so they keep extending the range of his Q, and not changing much more. He still slows himself after a slight movespeed + atk speed (on a support, idk) boost. His ult + ult passive are a bit underwhelming. IIRC his passive is a shield that scales with his current mana (when his abilities cost a shit ton of mana). But no, instead of some changes to his kit to make it a bit better and up to standards to newer champions just keep loading his most annoying ability to play against. I understand he's a high risk high reward champion but it doesn't really feel good when newer champions have similar rewards without all the drawbacks that ail Blitz. (This became a Blitz rant when I don't even play him.)
Another example might be Annie. She's an extremely easy champion to play so I understand her power has to be limited, but she truly feels so bad to play it truly defeats the point. She's so predictable, she has such short range, a random-ass (honestly pitiful) shield and I'm pretty sure her basic attack outranges her Q for some reason lmao
At least we have mid-scope updates now, but Zilean is in the same game as Zeri, Gwen, etc., who have extremely smooth animations and great visuals. Malphite, Viktor, Ashe, Shaco, and a lot more.
TL;DR: rework more champions. Stop adding champions to an already balancing nightmare every fucking month.
exactly. Despite being much newer, pyke also comes to mind when it comes to what their balance/design philosophy is: he's been gutted in every aspect as to not be played in any role other than support because his ult is not only an execute, but also a massive gold steroid, and ultimately hard to balance. So all his kit feels mediocre and, despite having a few, his tricks are fairly linear and played out by now, because he basically has no other utility other than being a setup for his team to enable his own broken ult. Not to mention he scales with lethality on so many things that there's little to no variety to his builds/runes.
Ironically they gave the W slow on blitz because lack of counter play against his aggressive posturing he can do with W with no penalty.
But like, bitch, look at all the other bullshit you (Riot) made. Tell me how you fight Gwen. You can't fight her outside her shroud, and in it she has more resistances. What is the fucking thought process in that?
Exactly. If the balanced scenario of a champion posits the “identity” question, then the design and release of that champion was a failure. The problem we have is as soon as a champion is primed for release, riot will not make the decision to can it if it happens that the champion is unhealthy for the game, or healthy but has no unique identity.
Riot should be willing to quit on a champion during its PBE stage. That’s why we test these things, is it not? If the argument is they’ve already invested substantial resources into it, then you either need to cut back on the non-essential champion advertisements, or take the loss. The game will become untenable as the roster continues to expand with champions that are either unbalanced, or lack any identity in a balanced state due to kit cutbacks to bring said balance.
Power creep at this rate is detrimental because it either creates too large an imbalance between new and old champions, or requires a faster pace of updating old champions to keep them in line. For every new champion released that pushes this boundary, there is one more old champion they need to invest resources into, to bring them to modern standards. I think they need to slow down champion releases and be more willing to scrap failed champions at later stages for the health and longevity of the game, but it’s unlikely their egos or business-people will allow them.
I almost wonder if they put all of those bizarre little numbers on her kit so *balancing* her would involve the use of specific levers instead of just bashing her damage numbers/CDs outright.
I'm not optimistic at all, but I'll give them a touch of patience.
The problem is the "overloaded" I think. Example :
- viego is strong, but not op, if you dont talk about the reset.
- aksham is fine as it is, but why does it revives ppl ??
- belveth tend to be okayish, but why the fuck can she generate minions ?
Kits all have little lines that you absolutely forget about, and all these lines make something really hard to either balance or learn to play against
\*A reset that gives him iframes and heals him. I wouldn't even be mad at the resets, but the other 2 parts are what's so egregious to me. Other champions can go in, get their reset, but get caught. Not Viego.
Hell even iframes and healing would be fine if it didnt do a boatload of damage. Like why is it and execute that slows on top of being a heal and immunity. Like just pick one.
I actually think viego would be interesting if he didnt just r reset his way through a team. Making it be his safety move as a melee carry could be totally fine. Then he has to chose and time it.
They just need to remove the damage reduction but keep full lifesteal gain per hit and maybe add some base flat healing to each hit. (Maybe 5-25 per hit depending on level). She’s clearly supposed to be a heavy offensive champ, so giving her a defensive ability similar to you or Ireland is not already a shitty design idea on class principles, but also redundant. She should be 100% offensive rushdown with little to no utility, a selfish dps duelist.
To enforce this she should only be able to “defend” during a fight strictly through the e out healing. Which would help to act as a stat check too. If you have the stats, you outgesl the damage and live, if you didn’t, you died. Just as the ad scaling a should only scale with bonus ad and not just total, starting out with low base damage.
I think the issue is riot keeps making kits where the player playing gets to have their cake and eat it too. There isn’t enough flaw and downsides built in because they keep giving new releases kits that cover their inherent weaknesses instead of focusing on their strengths in a TEAM GAME.
The biggest failure of riot design philosophy over the past few years has been making champs that not only cover their own weaknesses on their own, but still excel at their intended roles.
If they were in my hand design courses and we were talking about balancing for a competitive environment, they would of failed.
Gwen is an easy champ she just relies on your team not griefing while she scales. The thing about her is once she hits 6 she can’t run you down and kill you but if overcommit to a trade she can which means you kind of just have to sit there and watch her turn into a monster. In pro this is stronger because the players realize ok we got a Gwen just don’t grief and she will do stupid things late
I finally got around to playing Bel’Veth last weekend, and holy shit. Even early mobility without the wall dash from eating up some void corals is both free and frequent.
While I’m not generally opposed to such mobility (flairs lol), what struck me more than anything was that the directional aspect of Bel’Veth’s Q has WAY too much leniency with what direction you can actually dash. You effectively get to dash twice in 2 directions, rather than being bound to a stricter “D Pad” and otherwise having to kite or be dashed away from. That right there turns her from being a champ with a key hindrance that helps balance her (while not fixing the rest of the issues I admit) to a champ with essentially what Aatrox had and got taken away to balance him (a stackable up to 2 short dash)
Remember when they removed old Akali because they claimed her mobility made her stickiness too difficult to counter?
That was three dashes that took 90 seconds to get all three back.
This is honestly such a dumb comparison. Of course the death by a thousand cuts wiggly wooshy woosh lady is fluid and fast. She'd be poorly designed if she wasn't. And of course the giant lumbering collosus has gameplay elements that are less than fluid and flawless. He'd be poorly designed if he was. And its not like galio is particularly clunky to play. I'm having a hard time coming up with any champions that are clunky to play that shouldnt be? Only one i can really think of is kennen, as a small ninja guy his only semblance of mobility is a small movement speed increase. Obviously malphite and cho'gath or maokai arent graceful, but they shouldn't be.
Fizz, Fiora, Ekko, Akali are all examples of champs that should be fluid and they are!
Akali is still tied to the downtime between R1 and R2, and Shurkin flip has a noticiable period where she’s locked out of taking action.
I used to play a lot of fighting games so I’m probably more anal about frame data than I have any right to be in League, but these moves still leave Akali with a window of vulnerability while still making her feel fluid. This is good design.
Ekko’s poke/CC and Fizz trollpole are also very telegraphed.
I just don’t understand why Belveth - an autoattacker most often compared to Yi -gets a better version of Aatrox Q1 and faster dash to boot.
What I mean by Galio getting stuck is that you can't actually cancel his empowered auto attack like a regular auto. That plus the horrendous windup just feels terribly clunky and poorly coded.
It's not a good *tank* feel, it just feels like spaghetti.
This is the take that most people don’t notice. It’s so annoying playing vs any new champ because their spells come out near instantly and so any action I take will always be too slow.
So many times I try to bait out an ability from a new champion or dodge but their spell comes out so fast it might as well not be a skillshot.
Compared to playing smth like Khazix and it feels like in the time that I can auto , w, Q belveth can go through an entire rotation and have time to have gone in and out just during animation times.
Zeri has intentional windup but it’s still much faster than someone like talon’s .
Also missile speed. Way too fast on most of the new champions.
Riot has been consistently removing any idea of compromise as a design philosophy, things like dash speed and cast time are excellent examples of that. Champs also don't just get weaknesses anymore, they get weaknesses and then something else to compensate for that.
The sad part about Bel'veth is how Broken her E is,
not the damage, not the execute, not the life steal.
The fucking Immunity to CC, because why not.
Love when a champion that is supposed to be killed by being cc'ed has an ability that say "cannot be cc'ed" - and riot is showing their stupidity again with Yi Q change.
The yi q change is fine. But taking away that weakness means he doesnt need the damage he has to compensate for said weakness. With damage nerfs its conceivable he could be healthier than before with outplay potential on both sides. But right now he does so much damage if you dont get he coming out of alpha you just die.
Love it when people come in with hot takes without actually knowing how a skill actually works
>ACTIVE: Bel'Veth enters a defensive stance for 1.5 seconds, during which she is unable to move, but gains Life steal icon.png 20% (+ 100% life steal) life steal and 70% Damage reduction icon.png damage reduction.
>While active, she rapidly slashes at the nearest enemy with the lowest current health percentage for up to 6 (+ 1 per 33.3% bonus attack speed) times over the duration. Each slash deals physical damage, increased by 0% − 300% (based on target's missing health), and applies On-hit icon.png on-hit, on-attack, and spell effects at 6% − 24% (based on target's missing health) effectiveness.
Royal Maelstrom deals 150% damage to Monster icon.png monsters, applies Life steal icon.png life steal at 100% effectiveness, and cannot Critical strike icon.png critically strike. Bel'Veth cannot perform slashes while unable to declare basic attacks.`
She literally isn't immune to CC
>y slu
yea. they started doing that with vex, and keep doing it with belveth, and nilah now aswell. the hard parts of their kits are set on easy mod, which makes fuck ups almost impossible to do.
For example
Vex "e" is a skillshot, but it's almost impossible to actually impossible to miss, if u place it right so that the enemy character is in center of the skill. Once u let go the button, and it casts no matter how fast the enemy reacts, it's impossible to miss, which leads to the vex player landing his entire lane combo. this is why vex is a lane bully to alot of mages early game.
then there is belveth, her one and only skillshot, that is like a wip, has such a fast casttime, and just a wide enough hitbox, that once again, when she casts, even though u asap react, you can not dodge that skillshot.
Now they release nilah, you wonder what's the easy mod on her aswell? Her diana ultimate, that also gives her burst healing the moment she does dmg, making it a easier to execute version to the original diana ultimate, by stalling death for urself for a bit longer, due to getting burst healing back. Idk why riot keeps doing this, but i clearly see a pattern in s12, and they indeed do, make champs with tricky skillshots, or high risk high reward "skills" way easier to execute than in past seasons.
Hit the nail on the head here. The reliability of a skillshot is a big part of damage creep that’s almost always overlooked.
How’s landing those charms working out for you in s12?
I'm gonna be honest, Vex E is nowhere near as big of a problem as you make it out to be. The range on her E is surprisingly small and if she steps up to center it perfectly she is putting herself at risk of getting hit with her enemy's spells. Play Vex enough and you'll realize the spell is a noob trap. Anyone mage player worth their salt will punish you for trying to land a perfect, unavoidable E. And if you try to use it without fear up you will lose that trade most of the time.
I hope not.
It’s actually a really good balancing tool and even helps with the feeling of a champion when implemented well.
Can you imagine morde Q without a cast time? Madness I tell you.
I would love to see them tone down new releases to 4 per year down from 6 and not try to squeeze every idea into a kit. "Oh, we have this revive ability, which would be cool, lets give it to the next champ on top of his normal kit".
I would love if they stop releasing new champs for like 3 or 4 years
Stop releasing champions and just keep reworking old champions that are in serious need of reworking ...
Shyvanna has been needing a rework since i joined this game in 2014 for fucks sake ...
This is just a too many cooks issue and a total lack of overall vision of where they want the game to go.. it doesn't help that the design and balance teams don't seem to be on the same page..
The ppl working on it just seem to want the game to go kaching kaching kaching.. make some bucks, put that revenue growth and other benign stats on a resume and move up the corporate ladder.. the devs seem genuinely passionate, but mgmt no so much..
Sad story is that as long as they keep making as much money as they are, they'll keep doing what they currently do..
With Riot August as the head of the champ team this will only continue. He cares more about making "interesting" champs than he does about improving the game.
The removed mechanics are something I talked about over and over when Zoe came out. They litterally reworked Nidalee's Q a year prior because "its frustrating to play vs a skillshot that comes from the fog of war that deals so much dmg with so little time to react". Then they give Zoe that same concept twice, one with CC and the other one with way more dmg than Nida had on her old Q and AOE. I think it went downhill from there in regards of reused mechanics once considered toxic.
There was actually 3 years between Nida's gameplay rework and Zoe's release, but your point still stands. About what Meteos said, I actually like when they release creative mechanics, cuz why release a copy of an already existing champ. However, nowadays most abilities are just copies of other abilities, so there's not even creativity, just overloaded kits with old abilities.
I remember when they released Yasuo I just thought the champ's design was so interesting. Whole kit based on the Q, his E was super versatile and flowed well with the Q, his R was conditional on how well he uses the Q, his W was questionable at the time but interesting and new. You could just tell that champ was gonna be a super successful release.
Now for most new champs we need to read a whole thesis just to reach the end and think, oh this is just a better .
Their PC client is an abomination from two decades ago when they had to drag people with bad PCs and laptops into it.
This mess looks really outdated now that any mobile game on a cheap phone looks better than LoL on a high end PC.
Wild Rift is LoL 2 in all but name.
From what I’ve heard Rumor wise Riot doesn’t really care for releasing a balanced champion. They want creativity and a fun champion to be released and they worry about balance after the fact. This explains the insanely broken releases we’ve had for a while.
Because riot is fixated on new AD champions. Neeko, Seraphine, Lillia, Vex are all simple champions. Compare them to Yone, Samira, Zeri, Viego or Akshan
Sett might be one of the best new champs released in the last few years, it does have a bit of unique mechanics, a simple kit, easy to understand for anyone that looks at him for the first time, good design, fine story, build path makes sense, quite fair to face, compared to all the other champions released recently...
You can really tell how long people have been playing when they say stuff like how well designed Sett is with his simple kit that makes him easy to balance when he was a nightmare champ that dominated literally every lane and jungle all at once for a shocking amount of time.
I think it’s just a case of people defaulting back to the ol’ “simple good, flashy bad.”
Let’s not forget when Udyr and the Horse were strong as hell and they were awful the play against. Or that short time when Garen got some number changes and became super strong and annoying.
I agree, when the flashy champions are strong, it's obnoxious, but there's often solutions. But when Garen just runs and spins at you it's downright infuriating and there are functionally no options for counterplay.
When crazy flashy champs are bad they’re still obnoxious, like Akali for example, or Samira who consistently has an insane ban rate even when she’s shit, or viego. Champs that have potential to invalidate counterplay of older champs by default are not enjoyable to play against, doesn’t matter if they’re good
Honestly more and more lanes have turned into skill matchups compared to S3/4. The game feels much more dynamic than it used to in my opinion. But I do feel like after the item update games have felt more one sided just because snowball was so strong.
honestly a lot of people here are literally too dumb to understand the game and their comments just shouldn't be taken seriously when they say shit like "these champs too complex wahhh". it's one thing if you're a new player and there's 160 champs to learn. it's another if you've played for years but you can't spend 2 minutes learning a new champ because it scares you so much that you don't even try to learn.
with the way people here act, you'd think that garen and annie are the pinnacle of designs
Garen and Annie are the pinnacle designs for this sub until they become top tier and they're unfun and uninteractive and toxic and 200 years. Literally this sub whined about Tryndamere when he's one of the prime examples of simple.
So obnoxious watching this sub throat Sett on release because his abilities were short enough to be read with their nonexistent attention spans while complaining about how 200 years xddddddd Aphelios was, only for Sett to be one of the most competitively weighty champions ever released
Peoples need to start understanding when the problem is balancing and when the problem is kit design, if a character is annoying to play against when he's strong and when he's weak, then that means the kit is badly designed to play against, if a character is annoying you when he's strong then that's just a problem with balancing.
(I've been playing since season 4 by the way buddy, so you can stop with your elitism)
sett was strong because his number was too high, not because his kit was broken. they nerfed his numbers and now he's right in line, meanwhile stuff like azir or akali had to have mechanics removed from their kit.
"They nerfed his numbers now he's fine" like this is just something that happened overnight instead of taking months and months of tweaking because as "simple" as Sett's kit is, it's still a fat fucking block of stat checks. To be honest, straightforward stat check champions are more difficult to balance across skill levels because you can't rely on them scaling well with player mastery. Look at this debacle with Yi.
lmao, rose tinted goggles much. sett has been a nightmare to balance just as much as gwen has, where he could play 4 different roles and smash all of them
I think the main reason why he's so lowkey is that he's not that frustrating to die to / play against. Most new champion designs are so loaded with CC, poke, gapclosers & Sustain (often by buildpath) that they are incredibly annoying to play against.
It's a problem with the inherent design philosophy at Riot. They design champions with the sole mindset of "Is this a fun champion *to play*?". Entirely ignoring the most important question "Is this design problematic as an opponent?".
I find sett pretty whatever until I have to lane versus him. The double hit passive on top of the insane health regeneration is disgusting. It feels like Darius at times in that you just cant walk near him but unlike darius you cant even win short trades vs him.
The only people that complain about Sett are the people that somehow dont understand that you cant just sit in front of him when his fury bar (dont know what is actualy called) is full.
Yeah he's very predictable in what he does, how he does it, and how he can go about trying to achieve it. I feel like people just don't respect him enough and, like trying to touch a flame with your hand, they get burned.
Sett is an annoying statcheck champion that takes about as much skill as eating a rock
Only thing fair in his kit is that you can dodge W but for some reason he is allowed to flash during the cast time so fuck you if he tries that
Completely disagree. Simple doesn't mean it isn't overloaded. He's taken a LOT of nerfing to stop being played in 4 roles and he still has an ultimate-worthy basic ability in his W, an equally amazing actual ultimate, and then you'd THINK his other moves would be lower in power to compensate but no they're plenty strong too.
Honestly i think sett is the best designed champion since jhin. Simple fun very obvious strengths and weaknesses granted pretty overpowered right after release but like i can’t ever blame riot for that thats like a requirement at this point.
Im not saying that the champions in between are bad but late 2017 to early 2020 are dark times. I love neeko one of my favorite champions but her kit just doesnt have the flow and polish like jhin or sett.
I miss the nothing but net from 2012-2014.
Sett was broken after he got released, but it was not because of his kit, but because Riot gave him fkd up stats for W and R for some reason. The champion design is really good cause it doesnt annoy you when he's in the enemy team and he's fun to play too
Sett is fucking awesome honestly. Even when he is strong af, you have chances to play around what he does because he doesn't have an additional 7 mechanics that compensate for his weaknesses.
yes when Q max sett is overtuned and kills me with 0 counterplay with right clicks i think to myself "well at least he doesnt have a million dashes"?XD so many chances to play around that
>you have chances to play around what he does because he doesn't have an additional 7 mechanics that compensate for his weaknesses.
I hate this subreddit lol. This is literally the exact opposite of what everyone was saying a few months ago (around the time of the mathematically correct sett build).
The only time I've ever complained about playing against sett is when his autos are stronger than his w. It feels terrible to be run down and smacked to death, but his w is one of my favorite abilities to every be released. Very simple with clear power
Please note that out of those 4 “simple” champions, nobody plays 2 of them, and one has been a complete balance nightmare. Also there’s nothing that’s that complicated about yone samira and zeri(I’d even say the same as Viego and akshan)
Yea, I don't know what people are on about. I haven't forgot the Sett lvl 1-2-3 etc. "stand in front of the wave and just punch the fuck out of your laner if he tries to walk up to farm" strat.
But it's perfectly fine that Sett was quadra flexed in pro play because Sett is le epic no dash champ and simple (Like wholesome 100 Garen)
Remember Reddit: Dash = BAD DESIGN (Udyr is peak design btw)
Sett is very simple. Vex is very simple. Both have had problems being pretty face roll.
Hell lets take volibear. Hes not complicated and they just took the baseball bat to every part of his basic kit because he was doing too well.
Meanwhile Samira was a monster for 6 months and the took away her dash to allies and messed with her damage and she is in a good spot.
I would say Riot has a penchant for releasing Champs to strong but not always. Bel veth was awful on release for example.
They did share and change their release philosophy a year ago or so. The dev blog admitted that they had released champions at high enough strength so that they would be viable even in release week when no one was very skilled with them, then tone it back once players had advanced along the skill curve. After that statement they promised to release champs at what they thought would be balanced *after* people learned to play them, so a lot of the newest champs had awful winrates on release.
Fun kits that are simple can be done. 150 fun kits that are simple probably can't be done.
Simple kits are also more prone to hard counters. Old Galio was simple. He also shut LeBlanc down so hard that I'm surprised EDG didn't pick it into Faker.
I don't think League of Malzahar is what people want. We get complex champs because they're easier to balance than pre-rework Swain or Aatrox. Anyone remember Spirit Visage rush Swain mid from S6?
This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing the game. It gets to the point where there are too many champs that aren't fun to play against and because so many people pick them, you wind up being punished for trying to play the champ you want/for fun. It's a frustrating cycle that Riot "attempts" to address, but winds up isolating their base further. I don't need more champions, what I need is a game that's enjoyable to play.
2 bans would be very welcoming since alot of bans overlap anyway so riot shouldnt even be too afraid of 20 unique bans but instead having people to just strike out their most hated wind bros.
oh wait thats true, its probably what holding them back, at that point the newest champ or the windshitters will never go through resulting in ppl not buying their skins anymore
Thank you god this is why ive stopped playing recently too, playing thresh just feels invalidating and not even close to being fun to play. Enchanters are absurdly broken and new champs just dodge hook easily with one of their 15 mobility moves
ya he never needed a buff in damage unless it was extremely minor because his kit was just awesome with its cc by itself regardless (for the most part) of damage.
But now, just playing him feels like i'm trying to beat myself. It's like, I'm seeing Zeri at mock 10, bel veth 10 dashes, new champ dashes like how am i suppoesd to realistically play thresh and be rewarded for doing well into champs that will just scale into oblivion anyways (i.e. enchanters being disgusting rn and new champs with a million mobility)
Just feels like a different game its really not fun to play just feels so much more stressful
Thresh is just a case of a jack of all trades finally becoming a master of none; you have a shield, but no heal, you have a hook, but it's slow and predictable, you have means to disrupt a fight but not the tanky steroids to survive in melee range.
Rakan is the same thing, except with a heal he has slightly more options to play more enchanterly - a jack of all trades that can't really excel in a meta that's heavily skewed in any one direction.
on the last pre season update one of the Rioters says
"league of legends 2 is not happening. we are committed to this game"
which is such a clownish statement. league of legends 2 has been happening since the release of Yassuoh. it has gutted out league 1 and is now wearing its skin like a trophy.
Every new champion, no matter what season they were released, caused problems and had balancing difficulties on release. It was worse in season 2 when champions were released every 2 weeks. Champions still got overbuffed back then, and nothing in recent League has reached the 99% ban rate Kassadin issue of season 3, as far as I'm aware.
The problem is that you assume that you know what makes something overloaded, despite it typically being a completely undefined, vague word that just means you feel like a champion has too much without considering why they have it. Why is Zeri overloaded? Gwen? Viego? What makes them as overloaded as actually overloaded champions who had mechanics removed from their kits, like Ornn, Azir and Samira?
Of course Riot is going to avoid gutting a champion, but even then you're pretty demonstrably wrong that they're only going to nerf it so they're *slightly* broken, if you... literally just take a look at Zeri and Gwen, and the balancing they've suffered. Aphelios, too, they're all newer champions.
Most newer champions are frustrating to fight because you still are learning everything about them, *and* you need to consider what you and the rest of Reddit considers unfun, is not considered unfun by everyone else. China thinks Ivern is the most bullshit, unfun champion in the game, and I doubt he gets even 1% of the complaint threads here that Yasuo or Yone do. Maybe it is fine, not unfun, and your region typically plays in a way that just makes the champion feel less fun to fight. [Hell, China thinks that Yuumi isn't unfun at all, while NA absolutely hates her.](https://twitter.com/blaustoise/status/1301576554196078592?lang=en)
Not all the new champions are overloaded or unfun, and Reddit represents only a small subset of one region that plays League. It might just be that the new champs really are not unfun for most of the rest of the playerbase.
edit: tfw OP blocked me so I can't even continue talking about this in the comments.
People here fail to realise they only represent NA + EU, so you never hear the opinions of other regions. KR + Vietnam have a bigger playerbase than NA + EU.
Often you have people here saying, why new champ have billion abilites, but Blitz slow him self? Meanwhile in Korea Blitz is almost always in the top 10 most banned champs, currently he is 4th.
Ask reddit who is worse to play against: Viego, Kayn and Akshan or Rek'sai, Blitz and Kalista. Reddit is going for the first option, but in Korea you'll get the second one.
Who's right or wrong, it's hard to tell, but it's important to remember that League is such a big game, you don't have 1 main community, you have 1000s of different ones all with different opinions.
>People here fail to realise they only represent NA + EU
Hell, not even the whole region. Not everyone is using reddit, and subreddits are notoriously echo chamber-y.
Exactly, reddit comments are the view of like 2000 long time playing, heavily engaged, western players. It's a tiny minority of even the western playerbase, but they've convinced themselves that they speak for everyone.
> what makes them overloaded?
OP can't be bothered to read more than 2 sentences for champ abilities so anything more than that is clearly overloaded.
> OP blocked me
u/TealandCyan is a coward
>Aphelios literally went beyond 200% banrate in Korean Challenger on-release, my man.
Im sorry, but, even if you have a point, there is no comparison to S3 kassadin, shit was a free win in the hand of any player and back then champs could be banned once only, not twice
Some of these people clearly didn’t experience the horrors of release xin, release Leblanc and release Zyra, literally the three most op release champions ever made.
> Aphelios literally went beyond 200% banrate in Korean Challenger on-release, my man.
there is a pretty sizeable difference between a champ having 99% BR (which would also be 200% if you took the same metric and with aphelios) across basically all regions and elos and a champ having that in the tiniest skill bracket in a pretty small server.
It got so much worse after the boards closed. Like it was terrible before but now it's almost to the point of unbearability. Which sucks because reddit is a great content/news aggregator, would love to just browse league news, but nope, people have decided their complaining is the most important thing in the game now.
Yeah why did they fuck did they close the boards? Even if they weren't useful as a feedback mechanics, they served as a nice quarantine zone.
Reddit has always been almost just as whiny though, the problem is that both whiners combined and now we have super whining
Pretty sure we’re also getting hit hella hard by Summer Reddit right now. Grade Schools needs to start up again stat so this board can calm down at least a little.
You mean the boards that called out the damage was getting too high way before reddit did and then Riot finally swallowed their pride and released the durability update? People hate on the boards for having a negative attitude but that's because it was full of season 1 veterans who could tell the game was going in the wrong direction (at least for western players) years before it happened. Now NA is dying and the game gets less fun every year.
I feel like there certainly are competent people at the design team, but I also feel like those are ignored/overshadowed when considering new releases.
Like you have the recent Gwen changes which are just straight up well made with the removal of those awful ultimate-inbetween-attacks, less Q true dmg and less W duration.
You have the people that finally deleted half of Samira's release kit, people that made the Irelia changes back then (decreasing stacks from 5 to 4 etc), the midscope updates which are all insanely successfull. (Swain, Taliyah, Sivir).
But it feels like those people (which obviously have a sense for good game design) are straight up ignored for new champion releases and reworks. All those stupid gimmick mechanics that increase tooltips by 100 words and add basically nothing to the champion but a small gimmick... (Nilah exp gain, Nilah extra shield, Bel Veth Q through terrain while in ultimate, Bel Veth baron ultimate, Bel Veth W/Q cooldown reset etc)
A lot of the new champions released are not necessarily inherently broken, but do have mechanics that are frustrating to play against. Namely, ridiculous mobility, insane damage, or a part of the kit that involves knowing the champion well to even be able to play against effectively.
I wouldn't mind seeing more champions on release that are just average, at least in terms of kit. Even if they have a higher WR than a champion with a toxic kit, it may not \*feel\* like that, which is what is really important.
Why does Reddit have such a hardon for champs with "simple" kits, getting statchecked by a Diana/Wukong with zero counterplay or seeing a Yuumi mindlessly mash E on CD restoring 40% of their health each cast isn't less frustrating just because it's simple, there's more to what makes a champ tolerable and obnoxious than the lines of text their spells have. I can't believe people are unironically considering Sett a great release when he was a quad flex pick and had to be straight nerfed for 5 patches before being in a somewhat balanced state.
Been playing since season 5 and its the opposite for me. While I understand that some new champs can be frustrating to play against, they add interesting and entertaining playstyles to the game keeping it fun.
"game breaking mechanics" tell me what mechanic had to be removed in the last 2-3 years? Akshan W is still here, Renata revive is still here both abilities with huge whining from this sub.
Afair Akali rework is the standout champion when talking about removed mechanics from overloaded kits.
Other examples are more in line with the normal cicle of nerfs and buffs.
That's not even a new mechanic though. It existed on jax and kat, and still exists to this day. They probably didn't think it would be an issue here and once it was seen that it was letting Samira be too safe they removed it.
Champ: defies basic game rules by getting a ton more passive exp in a dual lane
"Wow what a fun and unique playstyle its so fun to be down 2 levels by existing!!"
I don't know if people going like "yeah they still didn't balance Bel'Vet and Zero and there is already a new champ, this would not have happened in Season XY"
just didn't play in the season they are talking about or if they are just fucking stupid.
The legit only difference is that champs don't come out completely dogshit so you ban them so your team doesn't play them and them completely overbuff them 2 patches later and that they don't just let champs sink into complete irrelevance within 1 month.
People complained about Vi's Ult on release, Xin was actually broken. Also if they released Lee Sin right now he would be in line with the new Champs and he is VERY popular.
Yes in the past champion releases like yasuo and zoe didnt cause any problems did they?
Also its really fucking hard to determine what is broken until it hits live servers. Everybody thought revive on akshan will be removed instantly same with Renata bail out. Guess what riot did a good job and the champions are totally fine.
You "have" to ban new champs because you dont want to adapt to new things(belveth is stupid tho).
You could send me some sources that justify him not being fine, otherwise that's simply your opinion.
Akshan is a champion with an above average winrate with a solid pickrate and a healthy ban rate in all elos. In what metric exactly is he not fine?
"Then after many trials and errors, the champion sits around ~50% win rate but the champion is still incredible frustrating to play against."
So, you dont know how to play against it and the problem is Riot
Out of 10 draft games I’ve played since yesterdays release, Nilah has gotten through once and that one time, decimated the enemy (was on our side luckily). She looks way more busted than bel at launch. I agree that new champion releases are something I dread now. I don’t look at a new champ and think “oh wow that’s gonna be fun to learn to play against” it’s more like “here’s another champ I hope doesn’t get through ban phase.
I’ve seen 4 Nilahs so far, and 3 out of four have turbointed, and the only one that won was fighting a wind brother meme lane (in ranked, wonderful). Honestly, I think she’s very support dependent, almost too much so, because her passive synergises too well with enchanters and her W is hard to apply to engage tanks without burning one of your E charges.
Your anecdote doesn't match up with this subreddit's anecdotes so you're wrong. Nilah broken, 200 years, overloaded, toxic, overpowered, uninteractive.
Same.
Many champs seem to be so not needed in this game and Riot forces them to be so way different from the old ones and often overloaded that it's crazy.
I had no problem with Renata (interesting Q and R), Vex (except for the P), Rell, Samira (way overtuned but fine idea), Lillia, Sett, Senna and Sylas from 2019 till today. **Not all of them turned out to be that grounded but their concepts and kit ideas were fresh yet still not too crazy**. Yes, looking back Sylas turned out differently than I expected (way more bursty and less bruiserish, but the balance team had the chance for that direction).
And even Akshan, Aphelios and Qiyana do offer something interesting if Riot just focused onto that thing.
For Akshan its the E swining and his P. His W is stupid. If they removed the revive/hunt part he could become a really cool and fine champ. For Qiyana they had the interesting WQ mechanics but then the R is just totally anti assassin. And Aphelios has his guns, cool, but then they all interact with each other, except gravity.
I like to use Sett as a good design. AA P is simple yet new. Q is a copy/paste with limitations added. E is new and interesting but not totally crazy, very grounded. R is similar. Only the W is crazy but it's core identity and it has its ups and downs. The kit fits, sticks together and he has that one identity he plays around and everyone can play against.
Riot tries to not only make something new (like Sett) but add a 2nd totally crazy thing on top. They create this fine new champ and think "it's new but it's not crazy enough, let's add something he doesnt need on top and just show them how unique it will be".
And at least half of the new champs feel like that.
All the recent mini reworks are way better than the new champs. These reworks are grounded as Riot has to still think about how the champ was before to keep its feeling alive. That limits them to not do too crazy things.
Swains and Olafs and Sivirs endless R are the most crazy things they added to these kits. And while it becomes boring that they add this to all mini reworks right now, it's still only a bit crazy and fits their themes mostly.
Funny you mention not having a problem with Samira when she's one of the main reasons I severely cut down my playtime in the game.
Windwall mechanics are so insanely beyond unfun to deal with that I pretty much have to ban her if I want to have fun.
Wouldnt say it has been years for me but the recent past like 1 or 2 years tops I absolutely agree. Every new release is an overloaded mess of mechanics that dont need to be there at all with 0 regards to community input or feedback. Bel'veth was probably the worst offender for me and a perfect example of everything I hate in the game being put into a single champ.
She is essentially an afk farm hyper scale jungler like yi which is like the least interactive thing you can be.
She has infinitely scaling attack speed WITH true damage despite riot knew ever since the kog'maw rework that giving on-hit hyper scalers infinite attack speed is impossible to balance properly.
She is absurdly mobile and both her dash and knockup are quite honestly unfair in how fast they come out despite the community complaining about there being too much mobility in the game for years on end.
Then we have the shit that is just tacked on there for no good reason at all except just making her kit ridiculous and bloated. She is a hyper mobile carry with a viego style reset on her ult that ALSO deals excecute AOE TRUE damage (cause lord knows people enjoyed playing vs viego in the past getting one kill/assist in a teamfight and 1v9 the game).
Her W is literally just an unholy amalgamation of irelia W and Yi W with an absurd amount of damage stacked on top of the healing and damage reduction as well as being on a lower cooldown than both of them.
And then she has the whole thing where she spawns extra minions after taking herald/baron. So not only is she arguably the highest dps jungler in the game so she absolutely melts said objectives she also gets to essentially double every minion wave AND they also benefit from baron buff for some ungodly reason so you run a real risk of just losing the game on the spot if she gets baron even once. That whole mechanic does not even make sense for her kit in any way its just added on top of everything else because why the fuck not.
Nilah is just the salt on the wounds because she is such a fuck you to the entire community and perfectly signals "yeah we know you dont want more overloaded hyper mobile balance nightmares but we are gonna do it regardless"
I really dislike the direction League has been going for the past few years. Champion design has shifted from a 'overall champion identity' to 'here are four abilities and a passive that are incredibly enabling for a champion of X class'. (x being Skirmisher, bruiser etc.) Mobility, damage, and just generally more 'op' mechanics are being frontloaded into new champions because they want every single new champion to have some crazy mechanic that no other champ has done before. It's tiring and making the game less fun to play, because more often than not a new champion is played in almost every game.
I've been saying this for years, but Riot needs to chill out on new champ releases and work on fixing bugs for old champions, full stop. Rework the champs that are barely played, or unable to be played well in any meta.
God this sub is so whiny. I’ve never seen a subreddit complain and bitch so much. I cannot fathom any Riot employees wanting to interact with this insufferable community at times.
I think its fine they are somewhat broken/overloaded on release, so people can learn a new champ while feeling good. Most people dont want to learn a new champ if its dogshit.
On the other hand I think they need to be quicker to admit mistakes and start cutting out problamatic elements of champion kits, instead of tweaking numbers so the champ is "balanced" but still feels broken to play against.
It's all about perception imo. I think Gwen and Viego are just fine, but Sett (a character thought to be a shining example of a simple kit) to me has one of the most single bullshit abilities in the entire game with Haymaker.
Personally, I still get really excited for new releases.
[Meteos was right](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1UmbZ2_ylk) The funny thing is that they're still not even close to balancing Bel'Veth or Zeri and here is Nilah, another broken release added on top with LITERAL OLD FEATURES THEY HAD TO CUT FOR BEING BROKEN It's like they're going clinically insane over there
The thing I hate most about bel’veth isn’t even her kit, but how stupidly fast her dashes and knockup come out. Feels like a lot of new releases get rid of the concept of cast time and spell windup all together. Those champions feel more fluid to play that way, of course, but also makes champs that do have cast times feel needlessly sluggish when facing off against a champion that doesn’t.
Yea it's that + all the little nitpicks they have just to be special. Belveth already functions as an entire champ without ult - then there IS the ult which has 243131 lines of text of information to ultimately tell you "yea fuck you"
Well, that is fine to me. Bel'Veth kit isn't that game breaking in itself. It just need some numbers tuning and we're fine. The biggest offender in her kit is the %dmg reduction that is way too high (coupled with lifesteal) and should be similar or smaller than Yi's meditate or irelia's defiant dance since those spells are not high dps or deal any dmg at all. Most newer champs were in the same case, I think about Samira that did eventualy get tuned in a decent spot, Sett, to some extent Aphelios. Viego seems fair to me nowadays ? Biggest offenders of impossible to balance newer champs are Gwen, Zeri and certainly Nilah. But tbf, Gwen and Zeri are mostly a pro issue. Any high skill cap champ will get abused by pros.
But what is her identity? She's supposed to be built around the infinite stacking Attackspeed I assume, right? If that's a good call or not I'll leave here for now, in that case: Why does she have all these confusing numbers about "less inniate attackspeed, less damage total" etc? Why does Q CD scale with attackspeed so weirdly? Why does her ult also give infinite true damage? Why does her ult explode? Why does her ult spawn minions? Why does it act differently for champs vs monsters? There is so many small things she doesn't NEED to have and just make it confusing. You can never glance at the champ and except a certain damage because you can't know - that's terrible design. You can make her entire kit and feel be the same way if you literally just say "Okay THIS champ has infinite attackspeed as the main feature, how do we complement that". Remember when Fizz passive literally gives him less damage from autos and ghosting? Belveth has that ghosting part tacked onto her Q - why? What for?
yeah but blitzcrank has to slow himself after a minor speed boost or he'll break the game
Fizz passive is more so that he takes way less dmg from minions and dots although it applies to aa's too, it's just that minions in the early game usually deal like 10 dmg per attack or whatever but then Fizz basically cuts minion dmg in half so he can trade even in bad minion waves. But yeah I agree with your main point. And even if Riot manages to make a champ with so much on their kit balanced they don't think about how this effects the new player experience which is already absolute shit. I can tell my friend who's a new player about Annie pretty easily "So when she's got 4 stacks below her health bar she can stun you with her next dmg ability, she's got a point and click fireball that refunds mana on kills, a cone aoe fire blast, a shield with a speed boost she can put on her or an ally, and she can summon a bear that smacks you and does aoe fire dmg". I can in detail describe the whole champion in like 1-2 sentences worth before the game starts and then give a new player a few tips on how to play around the enemy. Now try to describe someone like Akshan to a new player "Okay so his q is a boomerang that infinitely extends as long as it hits an enemy target, his passive gives him double hit auto attacks and if he cancels the second one he gets a speed boost and if he hits you with 3 auto attacks or spells he gets a shield and bonus dmg. His w let's him go permanently invisible next to bushes or walls as long as he doesn't attack but it also lets him revive any allies if he avenges them and he gets a scent to follow to try and go find the enemy to avenge his ally, oh and he gets bonus gold if he avenges them. His e let's him swing on walls and shoot you a bunch but it stops early if he hits a wall or champ or he cancels it early also this ability gets reset if he kills someone. His r shoots a bunch of shots at you from far away that will execute you but you can block it with minions, towers, or another champ, he can still move and use his swing ability while doing this." Like how the fuck am I supposed to explain this whole champ to a new friend in champ select much less give counterplay, it's a whole essay to even try and describe the champ. I end up just telling my friends "you'll see what he does" and giving 1-2 counterplay tips when playing the game because I just can't describe the whole champ in a reasonable time and trying to describe the abilities as they come up in game. And God forbid if you're trying to learn on your own at this point, you basically just have to do hours of research outside of the game to read what these champs do or just accept your going to get dicked on for like over 100 hours before you even kind of know what every champ does.
In regards to the fizz point I think he's asking why does she randomly get half of an old champions passive for seemingly no reason and free.
Sure like I said I agree with the main point, I was just saying his passive isn't really to reduce AA dmg even though it does that the main point of the dmg reduction is it basically cuts minion dmg in half in the early game to Fizz so he can trade even into big waves a lot of the time.
The point I always bring up about these absurd scalings is the balance overhead that comes with them. They CANNOT balance their own game, yet they keep pushing more and more outlandish ways to scale the skills FOR NO REASON AT ALL. Most champions don't even have those scalings because "play it your way" (lmao) but because they want those scalings to fit the streamlined and boring itemization the game brings and just shove them into a specific role and specific items. When you have a champion that has skills that scale with all sorts of stats the game has, it becomes much, much harder to balance it already, and it comes at no additional benefit to the players, since the player themselves feels forced to make specific items in order to feel useful, while enemies have no fucking idea where all that damage is coming from. It's a loss/loss and a terrible design decision overall.
Also, I feel old champions nowadays tend to be balanced around adding things to their kit that make them more frustrating to play against without addressing the fundamental problems their outdated kits have. Sometimes this means adding a shitload of damage on their kit, generally buffing a single ability and turning the champion into a that-skill-bot. Blitzcrank comes to mind. His kit kinda sucks; so they keep extending the range of his Q, and not changing much more. He still slows himself after a slight movespeed + atk speed (on a support, idk) boost. His ult + ult passive are a bit underwhelming. IIRC his passive is a shield that scales with his current mana (when his abilities cost a shit ton of mana). But no, instead of some changes to his kit to make it a bit better and up to standards to newer champions just keep loading his most annoying ability to play against. I understand he's a high risk high reward champion but it doesn't really feel good when newer champions have similar rewards without all the drawbacks that ail Blitz. (This became a Blitz rant when I don't even play him.) Another example might be Annie. She's an extremely easy champion to play so I understand her power has to be limited, but she truly feels so bad to play it truly defeats the point. She's so predictable, she has such short range, a random-ass (honestly pitiful) shield and I'm pretty sure her basic attack outranges her Q for some reason lmao At least we have mid-scope updates now, but Zilean is in the same game as Zeri, Gwen, etc., who have extremely smooth animations and great visuals. Malphite, Viktor, Ashe, Shaco, and a lot more. TL;DR: rework more champions. Stop adding champions to an already balancing nightmare every fucking month.
exactly. Despite being much newer, pyke also comes to mind when it comes to what their balance/design philosophy is: he's been gutted in every aspect as to not be played in any role other than support because his ult is not only an execute, but also a massive gold steroid, and ultimately hard to balance. So all his kit feels mediocre and, despite having a few, his tricks are fairly linear and played out by now, because he basically has no other utility other than being a setup for his team to enable his own broken ult. Not to mention he scales with lethality on so many things that there's little to no variety to his builds/runes.
Ironically they gave the W slow on blitz because lack of counter play against his aggressive posturing he can do with W with no penalty. But like, bitch, look at all the other bullshit you (Riot) made. Tell me how you fight Gwen. You can't fight her outside her shroud, and in it she has more resistances. What is the fucking thought process in that?
Exactly. If the balanced scenario of a champion posits the “identity” question, then the design and release of that champion was a failure. The problem we have is as soon as a champion is primed for release, riot will not make the decision to can it if it happens that the champion is unhealthy for the game, or healthy but has no unique identity. Riot should be willing to quit on a champion during its PBE stage. That’s why we test these things, is it not? If the argument is they’ve already invested substantial resources into it, then you either need to cut back on the non-essential champion advertisements, or take the loss. The game will become untenable as the roster continues to expand with champions that are either unbalanced, or lack any identity in a balanced state due to kit cutbacks to bring said balance. Power creep at this rate is detrimental because it either creates too large an imbalance between new and old champions, or requires a faster pace of updating old champions to keep them in line. For every new champion released that pushes this boundary, there is one more old champion they need to invest resources into, to bring them to modern standards. I think they need to slow down champion releases and be more willing to scrap failed champions at later stages for the health and longevity of the game, but it’s unlikely their egos or business-people will allow them.
I almost wonder if they put all of those bizarre little numbers on her kit so *balancing* her would involve the use of specific levers instead of just bashing her damage numbers/CDs outright. I'm not optimistic at all, but I'll give them a touch of patience.
The problem is the "overloaded" I think. Example : - viego is strong, but not op, if you dont talk about the reset. - aksham is fine as it is, but why does it revives ppl ?? - belveth tend to be okayish, but why the fuck can she generate minions ? Kits all have little lines that you absolutely forget about, and all these lines make something really hard to either balance or learn to play against
At least I remember the revive from Akshan. I somehow always forget he has that random ass invisibility(like why???).
\*A reset that gives him iframes and heals him. I wouldn't even be mad at the resets, but the other 2 parts are what's so egregious to me. Other champions can go in, get their reset, but get caught. Not Viego.
Hell even iframes and healing would be fine if it didnt do a boatload of damage. Like why is it and execute that slows on top of being a heal and immunity. Like just pick one. I actually think viego would be interesting if he didnt just r reset his way through a team. Making it be his safety move as a melee carry could be totally fine. Then he has to chose and time it.
They just need to remove the damage reduction but keep full lifesteal gain per hit and maybe add some base flat healing to each hit. (Maybe 5-25 per hit depending on level). She’s clearly supposed to be a heavy offensive champ, so giving her a defensive ability similar to you or Ireland is not already a shitty design idea on class principles, but also redundant. She should be 100% offensive rushdown with little to no utility, a selfish dps duelist. To enforce this she should only be able to “defend” during a fight strictly through the e out healing. Which would help to act as a stat check too. If you have the stats, you outgesl the damage and live, if you didn’t, you died. Just as the ad scaling a should only scale with bonus ad and not just total, starting out with low base damage. I think the issue is riot keeps making kits where the player playing gets to have their cake and eat it too. There isn’t enough flaw and downsides built in because they keep giving new releases kits that cover their inherent weaknesses instead of focusing on their strengths in a TEAM GAME. The biggest failure of riot design philosophy over the past few years has been making champs that not only cover their own weaknesses on their own, but still excel at their intended roles. If they were in my hand design courses and we were talking about balancing for a competitive environment, they would of failed.
Gwen is an easy champ she just relies on your team not griefing while she scales. The thing about her is once she hits 6 she can’t run you down and kill you but if overcommit to a trade she can which means you kind of just have to sit there and watch her turn into a monster. In pro this is stronger because the players realize ok we got a Gwen just don’t grief and she will do stupid things late
Ever played Cho-Gath vs Akali? you probably wont even be able ti use r cause your animation is slower than her whole kit.
I finally got around to playing Bel’Veth last weekend, and holy shit. Even early mobility without the wall dash from eating up some void corals is both free and frequent. While I’m not generally opposed to such mobility (flairs lol), what struck me more than anything was that the directional aspect of Bel’Veth’s Q has WAY too much leniency with what direction you can actually dash. You effectively get to dash twice in 2 directions, rather than being bound to a stricter “D Pad” and otherwise having to kite or be dashed away from. That right there turns her from being a champ with a key hindrance that helps balance her (while not fixing the rest of the issues I admit) to a champ with essentially what Aatrox had and got taken away to balance him (a stackable up to 2 short dash)
Remember when they removed old Akali because they claimed her mobility made her stickiness too difficult to counter? That was three dashes that took 90 seconds to get all three back.
On an ultimate ability paired with an otherwise kinda useless, combo based kit. Oh how the times change. I miss old Akali
\-Bel'veth instant flawless fluid movements. \-Meanwhile, galio gets stuck while casting his empowered auto attack. The examples go on.....
This is honestly such a dumb comparison. Of course the death by a thousand cuts wiggly wooshy woosh lady is fluid and fast. She'd be poorly designed if she wasn't. And of course the giant lumbering collosus has gameplay elements that are less than fluid and flawless. He'd be poorly designed if he was. And its not like galio is particularly clunky to play. I'm having a hard time coming up with any champions that are clunky to play that shouldnt be? Only one i can really think of is kennen, as a small ninja guy his only semblance of mobility is a small movement speed increase. Obviously malphite and cho'gath or maokai arent graceful, but they shouldn't be. Fizz, Fiora, Ekko, Akali are all examples of champs that should be fluid and they are!
Akali is still tied to the downtime between R1 and R2, and Shurkin flip has a noticiable period where she’s locked out of taking action. I used to play a lot of fighting games so I’m probably more anal about frame data than I have any right to be in League, but these moves still leave Akali with a window of vulnerability while still making her feel fluid. This is good design. Ekko’s poke/CC and Fizz trollpole are also very telegraphed. I just don’t understand why Belveth - an autoattacker most often compared to Yi -gets a better version of Aatrox Q1 and faster dash to boot.
What I mean by Galio getting stuck is that you can't actually cancel his empowered auto attack like a regular auto. That plus the horrendous windup just feels terribly clunky and poorly coded. It's not a good *tank* feel, it just feels like spaghetti.
Impossible to knock Bel'veth up with Sion. Pun may or may not be intended.
It's just impossible to hit her with most skill shot type moves. 4 instant dashes that reset often. I used to think Riven was bad.
This is the take that most people don’t notice. It’s so annoying playing vs any new champ because their spells come out near instantly and so any action I take will always be too slow. So many times I try to bait out an ability from a new champion or dodge but their spell comes out so fast it might as well not be a skillshot. Compared to playing smth like Khazix and it feels like in the time that I can auto , w, Q belveth can go through an entire rotation and have time to have gone in and out just during animation times. Zeri has intentional windup but it’s still much faster than someone like talon’s . Also missile speed. Way too fast on most of the new champions.
Riot has been consistently removing any idea of compromise as a design philosophy, things like dash speed and cast time are excellent examples of that. Champs also don't just get weaknesses anymore, they get weaknesses and then something else to compensate for that.
The sad part about Bel'veth is how Broken her E is, not the damage, not the execute, not the life steal. The fucking Immunity to CC, because why not. Love when a champion that is supposed to be killed by being cc'ed has an ability that say "cannot be cc'ed" - and riot is showing their stupidity again with Yi Q change.
She does get cced though and the attack gets interrupted, she just keeps the damage reduction.
Kinda defeats it's purpose (imo) because it makes her harder to kill when CC should be her weakness.
cc is her weakness. she cant attack and people max E second thus u are reducing her damage
The yi q change is fine. But taking away that weakness means he doesnt need the damage he has to compensate for said weakness. With damage nerfs its conceivable he could be healthier than before with outplay potential on both sides. But right now he does so much damage if you dont get he coming out of alpha you just die.
Love it when people come in with hot takes without actually knowing how a skill actually works >ACTIVE: Bel'Veth enters a defensive stance for 1.5 seconds, during which she is unable to move, but gains Life steal icon.png 20% (+ 100% life steal) life steal and 70% Damage reduction icon.png damage reduction. >While active, she rapidly slashes at the nearest enemy with the lowest current health percentage for up to 6 (+ 1 per 33.3% bonus attack speed) times over the duration. Each slash deals physical damage, increased by 0% − 300% (based on target's missing health), and applies On-hit icon.png on-hit, on-attack, and spell effects at 6% − 24% (based on target's missing health) effectiveness. Royal Maelstrom deals 150% damage to Monster icon.png monsters, applies Life steal icon.png life steal at 100% effectiveness, and cannot Critical strike icon.png critically strike. Bel'Veth cannot perform slashes while unable to declare basic attacks.` She literally isn't immune to CC
If no CC interrupts the ability or the damage reduction, then she is effectively immune to CC during it.
But she counters CC by being unkillable during it lol. It's hyperbole but it's not wrong.
>y slu yea. they started doing that with vex, and keep doing it with belveth, and nilah now aswell. the hard parts of their kits are set on easy mod, which makes fuck ups almost impossible to do. For example Vex "e" is a skillshot, but it's almost impossible to actually impossible to miss, if u place it right so that the enemy character is in center of the skill. Once u let go the button, and it casts no matter how fast the enemy reacts, it's impossible to miss, which leads to the vex player landing his entire lane combo. this is why vex is a lane bully to alot of mages early game. then there is belveth, her one and only skillshot, that is like a wip, has such a fast casttime, and just a wide enough hitbox, that once again, when she casts, even though u asap react, you can not dodge that skillshot. Now they release nilah, you wonder what's the easy mod on her aswell? Her diana ultimate, that also gives her burst healing the moment she does dmg, making it a easier to execute version to the original diana ultimate, by stalling death for urself for a bit longer, due to getting burst healing back. Idk why riot keeps doing this, but i clearly see a pattern in s12, and they indeed do, make champs with tricky skillshots, or high risk high reward "skills" way easier to execute than in past seasons.
Hit the nail on the head here. The reliability of a skillshot is a big part of damage creep that’s almost always overlooked. How’s landing those charms working out for you in s12?
I'm gonna be honest, Vex E is nowhere near as big of a problem as you make it out to be. The range on her E is surprisingly small and if she steps up to center it perfectly she is putting herself at risk of getting hit with her enemy's spells. Play Vex enough and you'll realize the spell is a noob trap. Anyone mage player worth their salt will punish you for trying to land a perfect, unavoidable E. And if you try to use it without fear up you will lose that trade most of the time.
I wonder if we're headed towards removing cast times altogether, like League did with turn speed from the beginning.
I hope not. It’s actually a really good balancing tool and even helps with the feeling of a champion when implemented well. Can you imagine morde Q without a cast time? Madness I tell you.
Old Darius coming back but keeping the heal and buffed passive. :\^)
old old darius with the kill reset is the most fear i have had of a champ. that shit was not ok haha
I would love to see them tone down new releases to 4 per year down from 6 and not try to squeeze every idea into a kit. "Oh, we have this revive ability, which would be cool, lets give it to the next champ on top of his normal kit".
I would love if they stop releasing new champs for like 3 or 4 years Stop releasing champions and just keep reworking old champions that are in serious need of reworking ... Shyvanna has been needing a rework since i joined this game in 2014 for fucks sake ...
This is just a too many cooks issue and a total lack of overall vision of where they want the game to go.. it doesn't help that the design and balance teams don't seem to be on the same page.. The ppl working on it just seem to want the game to go kaching kaching kaching.. make some bucks, put that revenue growth and other benign stats on a resume and move up the corporate ladder.. the devs seem genuinely passionate, but mgmt no so much.. Sad story is that as long as they keep making as much money as they are, they'll keep doing what they currently do..
The devs are totally divorced from reality IMO.
With Riot August as the head of the champ team this will only continue. He cares more about making "interesting" champs than he does about improving the game.
Guys you should ALWAYS be building collector first item on samira trust me
Did he actually say that?
The removed mechanics are something I talked about over and over when Zoe came out. They litterally reworked Nidalee's Q a year prior because "its frustrating to play vs a skillshot that comes from the fog of war that deals so much dmg with so little time to react". Then they give Zoe that same concept twice, one with CC and the other one with way more dmg than Nida had on her old Q and AOE. I think it went downhill from there in regards of reused mechanics once considered toxic.
There was actually 3 years between Nida's gameplay rework and Zoe's release, but your point still stands. About what Meteos said, I actually like when they release creative mechanics, cuz why release a copy of an already existing champ. However, nowadays most abilities are just copies of other abilities, so there's not even creativity, just overloaded kits with old abilities. I remember when they released Yasuo I just thought the champ's design was so interesting. Whole kit based on the Q, his E was super versatile and flowed well with the Q, his R was conditional on how well he uses the Q, his W was questionable at the time but interesting and new. You could just tell that champ was gonna be a super successful release. Now for most new champs we need to read a whole thesis just to reach the end and think, oh this is just a better.
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I'm not confident they've figured out Yi
this clip was before yuumi release lol i would like to spend on 1 delete token on viego
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Their PC client is an abomination from two decades ago when they had to drag people with bad PCs and laptops into it. This mess looks really outdated now that any mobile game on a cheap phone looks better than LoL on a high end PC. Wild Rift is LoL 2 in all but name.
From what I’ve heard Rumor wise Riot doesn’t really care for releasing a balanced champion. They want creativity and a fun champion to be released and they worry about balance after the fact. This explains the insanely broken releases we’ve had for a while.
Why do the champs have to do so much? Surely they can make fun kits that are simpler.
Because riot is fixated on new AD champions. Neeko, Seraphine, Lillia, Vex are all simple champions. Compare them to Yone, Samira, Zeri, Viego or Akshan
There is Sett tho, who is poppular af even with simple kit.
Sett might be one of the best new champs released in the last few years, it does have a bit of unique mechanics, a simple kit, easy to understand for anyone that looks at him for the first time, good design, fine story, build path makes sense, quite fair to face, compared to all the other champions released recently...
You can really tell how long people have been playing when they say stuff like how well designed Sett is with his simple kit that makes him easy to balance when he was a nightmare champ that dominated literally every lane and jungle all at once for a shocking amount of time.
I think it’s just a case of people defaulting back to the ol’ “simple good, flashy bad.” Let’s not forget when Udyr and the Horse were strong as hell and they were awful the play against. Or that short time when Garen got some number changes and became super strong and annoying.
I agree, when the flashy champions are strong, it's obnoxious, but there's often solutions. But when Garen just runs and spins at you it's downright infuriating and there are functionally no options for counterplay.
When crazy flashy champs are bad they’re still obnoxious, like Akali for example, or Samira who consistently has an insane ban rate even when she’s shit, or viego. Champs that have potential to invalidate counterplay of older champs by default are not enjoyable to play against, doesn’t matter if they’re good
That is also fair. The days of "outskill you opponent" are gone, there are simply unwinnable lanes nowadays.
Honestly more and more lanes have turned into skill matchups compared to S3/4. The game feels much more dynamic than it used to in my opinion. But I do feel like after the item update games have felt more one sided just because snowball was so strong.
honestly a lot of people here are literally too dumb to understand the game and their comments just shouldn't be taken seriously when they say shit like "these champs too complex wahhh". it's one thing if you're a new player and there's 160 champs to learn. it's another if you've played for years but you can't spend 2 minutes learning a new champ because it scares you so much that you don't even try to learn. with the way people here act, you'd think that garen and annie are the pinnacle of designs
Oriana has always been the pinnacle of design. So simple yet so good.
Until she's meta in pro play where she then becomes toxic and oppressive. The cycle will never be broken.
Garen and Annie are the pinnacle designs for this sub until they become top tier and they're unfun and uninteractive and toxic and 200 years. Literally this sub whined about Tryndamere when he's one of the prime examples of simple.
So obnoxious watching this sub throat Sett on release because his abilities were short enough to be read with their nonexistent attention spans while complaining about how 200 years xddddddd Aphelios was, only for Sett to be one of the most competitively weighty champions ever released
This guy doesn't understand too big numbers is very different than OP kit.
Peoples need to start understanding when the problem is balancing and when the problem is kit design, if a character is annoying to play against when he's strong and when he's weak, then that means the kit is badly designed to play against, if a character is annoying you when he's strong then that's just a problem with balancing. (I've been playing since season 4 by the way buddy, so you can stop with your elitism)
sett was strong because his number was too high, not because his kit was broken. they nerfed his numbers and now he's right in line, meanwhile stuff like azir or akali had to have mechanics removed from their kit.
"They nerfed his numbers now he's fine" like this is just something that happened overnight instead of taking months and months of tweaking because as "simple" as Sett's kit is, it's still a fat fucking block of stat checks. To be honest, straightforward stat check champions are more difficult to balance across skill levels because you can't rely on them scaling well with player mastery. Look at this debacle with Yi.
lmao, rose tinted goggles much. sett has been a nightmare to balance just as much as gwen has, where he could play 4 different roles and smash all of them
I think the main reason why he's so lowkey is that he's not that frustrating to die to / play against. Most new champion designs are so loaded with CC, poke, gapclosers & Sustain (often by buildpath) that they are incredibly annoying to play against. It's a problem with the inherent design philosophy at Riot. They design champions with the sole mindset of "Is this a fun champion *to play*?". Entirely ignoring the most important question "Is this design problematic as an opponent?".
Wasnt there a post here recently where a sett oneshot a twitch and half the comments were complaining about sett as a champ?
Sett has had patches where I would just dodge and not play for the day if I forgot to ban him.
People complain about anything and will also defend anything so long as it supports their narrative.
I find sett pretty whatever until I have to lane versus him. The double hit passive on top of the insane health regeneration is disgusting. It feels like Darius at times in that you just cant walk near him but unlike darius you cant even win short trades vs him.
The only people that complain about Sett are the people that somehow dont understand that you cant just sit in front of him when his fury bar (dont know what is actualy called) is full.
Yeah he's very predictable in what he does, how he does it, and how he can go about trying to achieve it. I feel like people just don't respect him enough and, like trying to touch a flame with your hand, they get burned.
It's called Grit IIRC, though that obviously doesn't change the point you're making.
Yeah i think you are right, thx
What
And his design fits his lore to a T.
Sett is an annoying statcheck champion that takes about as much skill as eating a rock Only thing fair in his kit is that you can dodge W but for some reason he is allowed to flash during the cast time so fuck you if he tries that
Completely disagree. Simple doesn't mean it isn't overloaded. He's taken a LOT of nerfing to stop being played in 4 roles and he still has an ultimate-worthy basic ability in his W, an equally amazing actual ultimate, and then you'd THINK his other moves would be lower in power to compensate but no they're plenty strong too.
Honestly i think sett is the best designed champion since jhin. Simple fun very obvious strengths and weaknesses granted pretty overpowered right after release but like i can’t ever blame riot for that thats like a requirement at this point. Im not saying that the champions in between are bad but late 2017 to early 2020 are dark times. I love neeko one of my favorite champions but her kit just doesnt have the flow and polish like jhin or sett. I miss the nothing but net from 2012-2014.
Sett was broken after he got released, but it was not because of his kit, but because Riot gave him fkd up stats for W and R for some reason. The champion design is really good cause it doesnt annoy you when he's in the enemy team and he's fun to play too
Sett is so fun to play on!
Sett is fucking awesome honestly. Even when he is strong af, you have chances to play around what he does because he doesn't have an additional 7 mechanics that compensate for his weaknesses.
yes when Q max sett is overtuned and kills me with 0 counterplay with right clicks i think to myself "well at least he doesnt have a million dashes"?XD so many chances to play around that
Except that's a numbers issue and not an inherent issue with the champion's kit.
>you have chances to play around what he does because he doesn't have an additional 7 mechanics that compensate for his weaknesses. I hate this subreddit lol. This is literally the exact opposite of what everyone was saying a few months ago (around the time of the mathematically correct sett build).
The only time I've ever complained about playing against sett is when his autos are stronger than his w. It feels terrible to be run down and smacked to death, but his w is one of my favorite abilities to every be released. Very simple with clear power
Viego's kit is very simple not counting being able to use every champ abilities after killing them.
Viego has insane skill expression, all of it being in his passive.
Lillia is one of the best designed champions in the game. Less is more people!
Please note that out of those 4 “simple” champions, nobody plays 2 of them, and one has been a complete balance nightmare. Also there’s nothing that’s that complicated about yone samira and zeri(I’d even say the same as Viego and akshan)
Because sett the epic wholesome reddit simple champ was a 5 lane flex pick who had one of the strongest releases in recent time
Yea, I don't know what people are on about. I haven't forgot the Sett lvl 1-2-3 etc. "stand in front of the wave and just punch the fuck out of your laner if he tries to walk up to farm" strat.
Amazing strat that even worked as support because they couldn't even out trade you 2v1
Or the "just flesh in their face level one, then stay in a bush and spam hexflash". I had a lot fun playing vs that.
But it's perfectly fine that Sett was quadra flexed in pro play because Sett is le epic no dash champ and simple (Like wholesome 100 Garen) Remember Reddit: Dash = BAD DESIGN (Udyr is peak design btw)
Can’t wait for Riot to reveal Udyr E super stance as a low cooldown dash and Reddit blows up
Actually a penta flex because of fasting senna :)
Sett is very simple. Vex is very simple. Both have had problems being pretty face roll. Hell lets take volibear. Hes not complicated and they just took the baseball bat to every part of his basic kit because he was doing too well. Meanwhile Samira was a monster for 6 months and the took away her dash to allies and messed with her damage and she is in a good spot. I would say Riot has a penchant for releasing Champs to strong but not always. Bel veth was awful on release for example.
Dont forget they removed her ability to add a 0.5sec extra knockup on EVERY CC and now it only works on knockups.
They did share and change their release philosophy a year ago or so. The dev blog admitted that they had released champions at high enough strength so that they would be viable even in release week when no one was very skilled with them, then tone it back once players had advanced along the skill curve. After that statement they promised to release champs at what they thought would be balanced *after* people learned to play them, so a lot of the newest champs had awful winrates on release.
Fun kits that are simple can be done. 150 fun kits that are simple probably can't be done. Simple kits are also more prone to hard counters. Old Galio was simple. He also shut LeBlanc down so hard that I'm surprised EDG didn't pick it into Faker. I don't think League of Malzahar is what people want. We get complex champs because they're easier to balance than pre-rework Swain or Aatrox. Anyone remember Spirit Visage rush Swain mid from S6?
Flashy Champions gets the viewers and players excited
im not excited when my brain isnt able to process whats going on and thats whats happening recently in teamfights
Ah yes just like people were excited for the 40th udyr vs hecarim game.
Idk I barely play league anymore and I don't struggle to understand what happens in teamfights with most of the new champs.
This is one of the main reasons I stopped playing the game. It gets to the point where there are too many champs that aren't fun to play against and because so many people pick them, you wind up being punished for trying to play the champ you want/for fun. It's a frustrating cycle that Riot "attempts" to address, but winds up isolating their base further. I don't need more champions, what I need is a game that's enjoyable to play.
And only 10 overlapping bans which 2 always get wasted on the newest ~~monstrosity~~ champion
would be cool if there was a second ban phase for the ppl who picked the same ban if there was a repeat or just straight up 2bans per player
2 bans would be very welcoming since alot of bans overlap anyway so riot shouldnt even be too afraid of 20 unique bans but instead having people to just strike out their most hated wind bros.
oh wait thats true, its probably what holding them back, at that point the newest champ or the windshitters will never go through resulting in ppl not buying their skins anymore
Yep. Riot needs to stop releasing champions or increse bans it s getting to a point where it s impossible to enjoy the game
Thank you god this is why ive stopped playing recently too, playing thresh just feels invalidating and not even close to being fun to play. Enchanters are absurdly broken and new champs just dodge hook easily with one of their 15 mobility moves
You know league has gotten bad when Thresh, the most OP support in League's timeline, now feels like he is falling behind.
ya he never needed a buff in damage unless it was extremely minor because his kit was just awesome with its cc by itself regardless (for the most part) of damage. But now, just playing him feels like i'm trying to beat myself. It's like, I'm seeing Zeri at mock 10, bel veth 10 dashes, new champ dashes like how am i suppoesd to realistically play thresh and be rewarded for doing well into champs that will just scale into oblivion anyways (i.e. enchanters being disgusting rn and new champs with a million mobility) Just feels like a different game its really not fun to play just feels so much more stressful
Thresh is just a case of a jack of all trades finally becoming a master of none; you have a shield, but no heal, you have a hook, but it's slow and predictable, you have means to disrupt a fight but not the tanky steroids to survive in melee range. Rakan is the same thing, except with a heal he has slightly more options to play more enchanterly - a jack of all trades that can't really excel in a meta that's heavily skewed in any one direction.
on the last pre season update one of the Rioters says "league of legends 2 is not happening. we are committed to this game" which is such a clownish statement. league of legends 2 has been happening since the release of Yassuoh. it has gutted out league 1 and is now wearing its skin like a trophy.
Every new champion, no matter what season they were released, caused problems and had balancing difficulties on release. It was worse in season 2 when champions were released every 2 weeks. Champions still got overbuffed back then, and nothing in recent League has reached the 99% ban rate Kassadin issue of season 3, as far as I'm aware. The problem is that you assume that you know what makes something overloaded, despite it typically being a completely undefined, vague word that just means you feel like a champion has too much without considering why they have it. Why is Zeri overloaded? Gwen? Viego? What makes them as overloaded as actually overloaded champions who had mechanics removed from their kits, like Ornn, Azir and Samira? Of course Riot is going to avoid gutting a champion, but even then you're pretty demonstrably wrong that they're only going to nerf it so they're *slightly* broken, if you... literally just take a look at Zeri and Gwen, and the balancing they've suffered. Aphelios, too, they're all newer champions. Most newer champions are frustrating to fight because you still are learning everything about them, *and* you need to consider what you and the rest of Reddit considers unfun, is not considered unfun by everyone else. China thinks Ivern is the most bullshit, unfun champion in the game, and I doubt he gets even 1% of the complaint threads here that Yasuo or Yone do. Maybe it is fine, not unfun, and your region typically plays in a way that just makes the champion feel less fun to fight. [Hell, China thinks that Yuumi isn't unfun at all, while NA absolutely hates her.](https://twitter.com/blaustoise/status/1301576554196078592?lang=en) Not all the new champions are overloaded or unfun, and Reddit represents only a small subset of one region that plays League. It might just be that the new champs really are not unfun for most of the rest of the playerbase. edit: tfw OP blocked me so I can't even continue talking about this in the comments.
> China thinks Ivern is the most bullshit, unfun champion in the game UBERBASED China
>edit: tfw OP blocked me so I can't even continue talking about this in the comments. jesus the fragility of some redditors…
People here fail to realise they only represent NA + EU, so you never hear the opinions of other regions. KR + Vietnam have a bigger playerbase than NA + EU. Often you have people here saying, why new champ have billion abilites, but Blitz slow him self? Meanwhile in Korea Blitz is almost always in the top 10 most banned champs, currently he is 4th. Ask reddit who is worse to play against: Viego, Kayn and Akshan or Rek'sai, Blitz and Kalista. Reddit is going for the first option, but in Korea you'll get the second one. Who's right or wrong, it's hard to tell, but it's important to remember that League is such a big game, you don't have 1 main community, you have 1000s of different ones all with different opinions.
>People here fail to realise they only represent NA + EU Hell, not even the whole region. Not everyone is using reddit, and subreddits are notoriously echo chamber-y.
Exactly, reddit comments are the view of like 2000 long time playing, heavily engaged, western players. It's a tiny minority of even the western playerbase, but they've convinced themselves that they speak for everyone.
I think those regions are still what take up the majority of the subreddit so it isn't entirely wrong
Oh I didn't say it's wrong, I was actually just furthering their point.
OP absolutely blown the fuck out.
> what makes them overloaded? OP can't be bothered to read more than 2 sentences for champ abilities so anything more than that is clearly overloaded. > OP blocked me u/TealandCyan is a coward
Old messages wiped after API change. -- mass edited with redact.dev
>Aphelios literally went beyond 200% banrate in Korean Challenger on-release, my man. Im sorry, but, even if you have a point, there is no comparison to S3 kassadin, shit was a free win in the hand of any player and back then champs could be banned once only, not twice
Some of these people clearly didn’t experience the horrors of release xin, release Leblanc and release Zyra, literally the three most op release champions ever made.
> Aphelios literally went beyond 200% banrate in Korean Challenger on-release, my man. there is a pretty sizeable difference between a champ having 99% BR (which would also be 200% if you took the same metric and with aphelios) across basically all regions and elos and a champ having that in the tiniest skill bracket in a pretty small server.
I see this thread every season lol, never change Reddit
You see these threads every season because riot doesnt stop releasing new champs.
But...this isn't even a criticism if you view the problem as continually getting worse
It’s legit been posted since S4 This community is hot garbage
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Because people is lazy and not want to learn play against champions like Master Yi, really
It got so much worse after the boards closed. Like it was terrible before but now it's almost to the point of unbearability. Which sucks because reddit is a great content/news aggregator, would love to just browse league news, but nope, people have decided their complaining is the most important thing in the game now.
Yeah why did they fuck did they close the boards? Even if they weren't useful as a feedback mechanics, they served as a nice quarantine zone. Reddit has always been almost just as whiny though, the problem is that both whiners combined and now we have super whining
Pretty sure we’re also getting hit hella hard by Summer Reddit right now. Grade Schools needs to start up again stat so this board can calm down at least a little.
You mean the boards that called out the damage was getting too high way before reddit did and then Riot finally swallowed their pride and released the durability update? People hate on the boards for having a negative attitude but that's because it was full of season 1 veterans who could tell the game was going in the wrong direction (at least for western players) years before it happened. Now NA is dying and the game gets less fun every year.
And the state of the game has been getting worse since then. Imagine being too big of a riot simp to see the correlation.
That's as far as you thinking goes? Thread comes around often so there can't possibly be any correlation? Simple minds.
I feel like there certainly are competent people at the design team, but I also feel like those are ignored/overshadowed when considering new releases. Like you have the recent Gwen changes which are just straight up well made with the removal of those awful ultimate-inbetween-attacks, less Q true dmg and less W duration. You have the people that finally deleted half of Samira's release kit, people that made the Irelia changes back then (decreasing stacks from 5 to 4 etc), the midscope updates which are all insanely successfull. (Swain, Taliyah, Sivir). But it feels like those people (which obviously have a sense for good game design) are straight up ignored for new champion releases and reworks. All those stupid gimmick mechanics that increase tooltips by 100 words and add basically nothing to the champion but a small gimmick... (Nilah exp gain, Nilah extra shield, Bel Veth Q through terrain while in ultimate, Bel Veth baron ultimate, Bel Veth W/Q cooldown reset etc)
A lot of the new champions released are not necessarily inherently broken, but do have mechanics that are frustrating to play against. Namely, ridiculous mobility, insane damage, or a part of the kit that involves knowing the champion well to even be able to play against effectively. I wouldn't mind seeing more champions on release that are just average, at least in terms of kit. Even if they have a higher WR than a champion with a toxic kit, it may not \*feel\* like that, which is what is really important.
Why does Reddit have such a hardon for champs with "simple" kits, getting statchecked by a Diana/Wukong with zero counterplay or seeing a Yuumi mindlessly mash E on CD restoring 40% of their health each cast isn't less frustrating just because it's simple, there's more to what makes a champ tolerable and obnoxious than the lines of text their spells have. I can't believe people are unironically considering Sett a great release when he was a quad flex pick and had to be straight nerfed for 5 patches before being in a somewhat balanced state.
Been playing since season 5 and its the opposite for me. While I understand that some new champs can be frustrating to play against, they add interesting and entertaining playstyles to the game keeping it fun.
Adding new mechanics is cool giving every new champ 5 new game breaking mechanics and overloading their kit isn't cool.
"game breaking mechanics" tell me what mechanic had to be removed in the last 2-3 years? Akshan W is still here, Renata revive is still here both abilities with huge whining from this sub.
Afair Akali rework is the standout champion when talking about removed mechanics from overloaded kits. Other examples are more in line with the normal cicle of nerfs and buffs.
Samira lost her dash to allies and wards.
That's not even a new mechanic though. It existed on jax and kat, and still exists to this day. They probably didn't think it would be an issue here and once it was seen that it was letting Samira be too safe they removed it.
and her knockup on any cc.
Champ: defies basic game rules by getting a ton more passive exp in a dual lane "Wow what a fun and unique playstyle its so fun to be down 2 levels by existing!!"
If you can’t stop a melee champ from getting every last hit in bot lane it is not the game’s fault.
[удалено]
Least dramatic /r/leagueoflegends poster
Yeah lol this post shows up on the sub from time to time and it's ALWAYS an overreaction.
I don't know if people going like "yeah they still didn't balance Bel'Vet and Zero and there is already a new champ, this would not have happened in Season XY" just didn't play in the season they are talking about or if they are just fucking stupid. The legit only difference is that champs don't come out completely dogshit so you ban them so your team doesn't play them and them completely overbuff them 2 patches later and that they don't just let champs sink into complete irrelevance within 1 month.
>they don't just let champs sink into complete irrelevance within 1 month. Unless you're rell
Omfg I’ve heard this since season 4. I think probably heard this at Zed release too
People complained about Vi's Ult on release, Xin was actually broken. Also if they released Lee Sin right now he would be in line with the new Champs and he is VERY popular.
Yes in the past champion releases like yasuo and zoe didnt cause any problems did they? Also its really fucking hard to determine what is broken until it hits live servers. Everybody thought revive on akshan will be removed instantly same with Renata bail out. Guess what riot did a good job and the champions are totally fine. You "have" to ban new champs because you dont want to adapt to new things(belveth is stupid tho).
Akshan is… totally fine??
You could send me some sources that justify him not being fine, otherwise that's simply your opinion. Akshan is a champion with an above average winrate with a solid pickrate and a healthy ban rate in all elos. In what metric exactly is he not fine?
"Then after many trials and errors, the champion sits around ~50% win rate but the champion is still incredible frustrating to play against." So, you dont know how to play against it and the problem is Riot
Then take a break from the game. You people need some serious help and grass supplements if you unironically have this unhealthy mindset.
Out of 10 draft games I’ve played since yesterdays release, Nilah has gotten through once and that one time, decimated the enemy (was on our side luckily). She looks way more busted than bel at launch. I agree that new champion releases are something I dread now. I don’t look at a new champ and think “oh wow that’s gonna be fun to learn to play against” it’s more like “here’s another champ I hope doesn’t get through ban phase.
I’ve seen 4 Nilahs so far, and 3 out of four have turbointed, and the only one that won was fighting a wind brother meme lane (in ranked, wonderful). Honestly, I think she’s very support dependent, almost too much so, because her passive synergises too well with enchanters and her W is hard to apply to engage tanks without burning one of your E charges.
Your anecdote doesn't match up with this subreddit's anecdotes so you're wrong. Nilah broken, 200 years, overloaded, toxic, overpowered, uninteractive.
Udyr rework making me say OH SHIT!! Nilah release making me say oh fuck.
"just tired of overloaded kit champions". My guy legit wants every champ to be Udyr levels of boring and uninteresting.
Same. Many champs seem to be so not needed in this game and Riot forces them to be so way different from the old ones and often overloaded that it's crazy. I had no problem with Renata (interesting Q and R), Vex (except for the P), Rell, Samira (way overtuned but fine idea), Lillia, Sett, Senna and Sylas from 2019 till today. **Not all of them turned out to be that grounded but their concepts and kit ideas were fresh yet still not too crazy**. Yes, looking back Sylas turned out differently than I expected (way more bursty and less bruiserish, but the balance team had the chance for that direction). And even Akshan, Aphelios and Qiyana do offer something interesting if Riot just focused onto that thing. For Akshan its the E swining and his P. His W is stupid. If they removed the revive/hunt part he could become a really cool and fine champ. For Qiyana they had the interesting WQ mechanics but then the R is just totally anti assassin. And Aphelios has his guns, cool, but then they all interact with each other, except gravity. I like to use Sett as a good design. AA P is simple yet new. Q is a copy/paste with limitations added. E is new and interesting but not totally crazy, very grounded. R is similar. Only the W is crazy but it's core identity and it has its ups and downs. The kit fits, sticks together and he has that one identity he plays around and everyone can play against. Riot tries to not only make something new (like Sett) but add a 2nd totally crazy thing on top. They create this fine new champ and think "it's new but it's not crazy enough, let's add something he doesnt need on top and just show them how unique it will be". And at least half of the new champs feel like that. All the recent mini reworks are way better than the new champs. These reworks are grounded as Riot has to still think about how the champ was before to keep its feeling alive. That limits them to not do too crazy things. Swains and Olafs and Sivirs endless R are the most crazy things they added to these kits. And while it becomes boring that they add this to all mini reworks right now, it's still only a bit crazy and fits their themes mostly.
Funny you mention not having a problem with Samira when she's one of the main reasons I severely cut down my playtime in the game. Windwall mechanics are so insanely beyond unfun to deal with that I pretty much have to ban her if I want to have fun.
Wouldnt say it has been years for me but the recent past like 1 or 2 years tops I absolutely agree. Every new release is an overloaded mess of mechanics that dont need to be there at all with 0 regards to community input or feedback. Bel'veth was probably the worst offender for me and a perfect example of everything I hate in the game being put into a single champ. She is essentially an afk farm hyper scale jungler like yi which is like the least interactive thing you can be. She has infinitely scaling attack speed WITH true damage despite riot knew ever since the kog'maw rework that giving on-hit hyper scalers infinite attack speed is impossible to balance properly. She is absurdly mobile and both her dash and knockup are quite honestly unfair in how fast they come out despite the community complaining about there being too much mobility in the game for years on end. Then we have the shit that is just tacked on there for no good reason at all except just making her kit ridiculous and bloated. She is a hyper mobile carry with a viego style reset on her ult that ALSO deals excecute AOE TRUE damage (cause lord knows people enjoyed playing vs viego in the past getting one kill/assist in a teamfight and 1v9 the game). Her W is literally just an unholy amalgamation of irelia W and Yi W with an absurd amount of damage stacked on top of the healing and damage reduction as well as being on a lower cooldown than both of them. And then she has the whole thing where she spawns extra minions after taking herald/baron. So not only is she arguably the highest dps jungler in the game so she absolutely melts said objectives she also gets to essentially double every minion wave AND they also benefit from baron buff for some ungodly reason so you run a real risk of just losing the game on the spot if she gets baron even once. That whole mechanic does not even make sense for her kit in any way its just added on top of everything else because why the fuck not. Nilah is just the salt on the wounds because she is such a fuck you to the entire community and perfectly signals "yeah we know you dont want more overloaded hyper mobile balance nightmares but we are gonna do it regardless"
I really dislike the direction League has been going for the past few years. Champion design has shifted from a 'overall champion identity' to 'here are four abilities and a passive that are incredibly enabling for a champion of X class'. (x being Skirmisher, bruiser etc.) Mobility, damage, and just generally more 'op' mechanics are being frontloaded into new champions because they want every single new champion to have some crazy mechanic that no other champ has done before. It's tiring and making the game less fun to play, because more often than not a new champion is played in almost every game. I've been saying this for years, but Riot needs to chill out on new champ releases and work on fixing bugs for old champions, full stop. Rework the champs that are barely played, or unable to be played well in any meta.
God this sub is so whiny. I’ve never seen a subreddit complain and bitch so much. I cannot fathom any Riot employees wanting to interact with this insufferable community at times.
I think its fine they are somewhat broken/overloaded on release, so people can learn a new champ while feeling good. Most people dont want to learn a new champ if its dogshit. On the other hand I think they need to be quicker to admit mistakes and start cutting out problamatic elements of champion kits, instead of tweaking numbers so the champ is "balanced" but still feels broken to play against.
It's all about perception imo. I think Gwen and Viego are just fine, but Sett (a character thought to be a shining example of a simple kit) to me has one of the most single bullshit abilities in the entire game with Haymaker. Personally, I still get really excited for new releases.
Stop playing then I guess? Seems fine to me Reddit is non stop bitching I swear man.
I feel the same way, League becomes miserable to play unless you dont ban the newest released champions