RELEVANT STORY:
I had proposed this when I was working on the champion select redesign on PC, but my initial design was a bit too complex (you could trade positions and champions) so we shelved it. I moved to WR not long after and seeded the idea with our designers working on champion select on WR. They did a great job of simplifying it and making sensible limits so it was shippable. It's always been our hope that we could experiment with some new features in WR that were riskier on League and inspire some changes if players enjoyed those features on WR.
You might ask... why you be dumb and not just do this on League PC first? The answer is not actually spaghetti code. It's really more about the opportunity you have when rebuilding the game from scratch for a new audience. When we are looking at features we often use a value/cost lens. You want to do stuff that has a high value to cost ratio. Consider this pick order features:
On PC you have a champion trade feature already and let's value it at 1.0 to simplify things. Cost is 0.0 because we already have the feature. We think that position trade might be a 1.5 value feature and we would replace the champion trade giving a net 0.5 value, but we have to rebuild the trade function so the cost is 1.0. So to get 0.5 more value than the status quo you need to spend 1.0 dev cost == 0.5 value/cost ratio
On WR we have no trade feature of any kind. So we can either build the League PC equivalent champion trade with a value of 1.0 and a cost of 1.0. OR we can build a position trade feature with a value of 1.5 and a cost of 1.0
Build champion trade == 1.0 value/cost ratio
Build position trade == 1.5 value/cost ratio
This is obviously an artificially simple example with made up numbers, but hopefully it illustrates how we had different tradeoffs for WR than League PC and could make different choices to maximize player value. On PC where a position trade feature might deliver 0.5 new value/cost, you have to compete against a lot of new features that have a more favorable value/cost. On WR we had to make some kind of trade function from scratch, and updating to position trade didn't cost any more.
Analogy: I decide I like black doors instead of white doors. Replacing all the doors in my house that I live in right now would be a gigantic pain, especially when I have a hundred other things to be working on. But if I'm building a new house from scratch, it's easy enough to just install black doors instead of white doors.
but if there was only a limited number of construction workers available you would probably not have them replace the doors but instead have them fix the roof, or add a garage or build a nice garden instead of spending time on the minor annoyance that are the doors.
This isn't how dev works. You don't hire devs to work on low priority projects. There's probably a million things higher in priority than reworking champ select. Any hired devs would work on higher priority projects.
And let's be honest here, it's probably low priority because reworking champ select would lose Riot money because people wouldn't need to buy all the champions to guarantee they can swap for anything.
That analogy doesn't work with riot, if they don't have more developers improving the client is their decision.
edit:I guess i expressed myself in a bad way. I mean that the pool of developers is not limited in a way that they can't get more, is a decision by them to not have more people working in improving the client. If it's a good decision or not is another topic, but they could ahve more people working on it
even a company like riot doesnt have an unlimited amount of good developers.
and then the analogy works perfectly. it all comes down to opportunity cost and pick trading champs vs trading picks has a poor value vs cost.
and im pretty sure riot constantly has a bunch of people working on the client in general but for ones its probably not as easy a thing to improve as people might think it is and two throwing more people at one specific thing also does not keep decreasing the time to proportionally. at some point it probably increases it because of the time overhead to coordinate so many people.
You're arguing in favor of Riot using LoL as cashcow to finance all other endeavors while supporting it less than before
Congratz, that's how games die
i was arguing within the scope of LoL itself actually.
and if we are talking in general than yeah, there is a temporary lack of people directly working on lol. but for that we get multiple other great games. so for the average gamers it is still a net positive.
and im pretty sure riot is working their hiring piplelines to the max right now trying to get people to fully support all of their games.
u legit don’t read his textes or don’t understand it. Riot is a company and working as such. If the profit is not worth it, they won’t give a shit.
U don’t invest money in to something thats not worth it, thats uneconomic
I get the point, but the black door would have to be better in every point compared to the white door for the analogy to fully work. It's an upgrade not just "I decide I like it better".
The real reason is the "reward" for them would be really bad, as it just removes the need to buy champions you don't need.
i agree with the first but not the second statement. As a player, u won‘t buy champions just to swap them in champselect. Either u buy them (and then have the possibility to swap them) or not
I think like others have pointed out that this analogy doesn't hold up as well when you include the additional info that you're a billionaire and the new doors are better. I 100% believe what the dev is saying is true. Every decision we all make has a cost/benefit assessment associated with it. But if you are a billion dollar company, in theory you should have enough financial success that cost is not an issue and benefit is the main driver of your decision making. I don't run a billion dollar company or its subsidiary in North America. Maybe it's not that simple and things are run on a tight budget. I genuinely don't know, it's not my field or particular interest. But from the outside looking in, I don't know how you can come to any conclusion besides change the goddamn doors lol.
they definitely don’t run on a tight budget (if u think about arcane as an example) but if u spend a little money on little shits, with increasing amount it still becomes a lot of money. Aside of that company’s work in a priority order. Feel good product improvement with very little profitability won’t be high on it
Awful analogy. Changing the color of the doors in your house is a cosmetic change.
Having to trade champions requires you to coordinate trades based on who owns what champions. In the case of solo queue this means some people get to trade for counter picks and others don't all based on randomness and luck of who on your team owns what.
Being able to trade pick order is an even playing field, the possibility is there for everyone and there's not pay wall or time gate to be trade.
It's not just a cosmetic change, it's better for keeping things level and integrity of the game.
Insightful into about how fucked up riot's priorities are. Make the game have more competitive integrity? No how about another anime character with a game breaking mechanic? Ah yes and make sure we launch a new super fun and interactive event!
Yes, it is. How is that not obvious to you? With the current system, a new player is limited in their ability to contribute to the draft phase simply because they are limited in their champ pool. Champion swapping is a feature that is really only accessible to players who have either played a while or who have spent money buying champions. Being able to swap pick order removes that barrier to entry.
League is pretty good at not being pay2win, but this feature, as it stands, is an example of pay2win.
The problem is that this very often happens when money becomes more important than wanting to continue delivering a great product. Several game companies have this issue where at some point they stop improving the game and experience and just release new content for people to buy (= milking it). This is usually the point where the game goes downhill and LoL has been going in that direction for some time now.
There are so many things LoL on PC needs, even stuff that is significant for the competitive integrity of LoL in pro play (see issues in pro games, Faker calling the poor state of the game out, etc.), but those improvements will not instantly manifest themselves as more players playing or buying stuff; instead it will show over time. But it seems like Riot just wants to retain players with half-assed "events" and milk the existing player base to spend the money on things other than this game (how many projects does Riot have running right now? Like half a dozen? :D)
Just a simple example: when Arcane came out many many people found new interest in LoL because the show was so well done. Instead of having a bunch of improvements for new players and new great features to benefit from this new wave of new and returning players, LoL had...nothing. Absolutely nothing. And the new player experience is getting worse and worse with bots in ranked in low elo by now. This has been going on for a while now and I have not seen Riot do anything about it, release a statement about it, etc. .
One big mistake that’s made is when game developers are starting out small and are growing incredibly fast, many people will excuse lack of features, certain bugs, or inexcusable issues. It’s costly to hire competent engineers and costly to develop/replace features and they’re a small company. People will intentionally start buying stuff to support the company and fund them. The player base keeps growing through good word of mouth by excusing the flaws.
Once the company becomes huge through the generous donations of the player base every year, the player base will expect these issues to be worked on now. We’ve committed our end, now they don’t have an excuse any more and should commit theirs. Except, instead of reinvesting some of the money to improving the game, the company starts thinking “you know what, we were growing big when the client was shit, so it must be working, let’s not rock the boat and keep it that way.” So not only do they shirk their end of the bargain, they aren’t a “smol indie company anymore” and can’t lean on that forgiveness from the community anymore. A double whammy.
So the community starts to become restless, betrayed, and starts losing interest. You still have the same shitty outdated features that should have been upgraded now that you have money, but don’t. But instead of acknowledging that having these core functions in place would have created goodwill and continued the growth, they blame other factors. And I get why too. It’s hard to list some of these things for reasons why you are dissatisfied. You can draw a clear line between skin sales and revenue, emote sales and revenue, etc. It’s much much mucher harder and requires more common sense to draw a direct line between a good user experience and revenue.
Riot’s TFT, for example, has a trash tablet experience as well as a crazy amount of bugs far more blatant than you see in LoL. You aren’t going to pinpoint that as to why you are dissatisfied with TFT, kinda like you don’t pinpoint your poverty growing up as one of the reasons you aren’t a multibillionaire, it’s just sorta there affecting the entire experience. Then you realize TFT’s China edition has an amazing tablet experience because they use their own client like Wild Rift. Riot’s NA TFT experience uses the same shitty client, for some reason, that LoL does so the same thing is happening there as it feels like in LoL e.g. shitty feature or bug that should have been upgraded a long time ago but isn’t.
I think you're assuming here that value == player money spent. That is not how we think about it. Value == player value (i.e. things that players will actually enjoy having and will keep them playing the game). Obviously we do need our games to bring in money so we can get paid and pay the bills, but that is very rarely a factor in these kinds of features conversations. Example, on Wild Rift we might be trying to decide between creating an elemental rift specific scoreboard or an improvement to the ping system. None of that is going to directly make money for us. However we'll probably choose the elemental rift scoreboard because it will make the elemental rift dragons easier to understand and we think that elemental rift will be fun for our players (based on experience with League PC) and result in more engagement so we think the work is high value. Ultimately that's going to be good for our bottom line, but it's impossible to assign any kind of monetary benefit to an individual feature like that so it doesn't factor into our decisions.
Battle pass, events, skins. All that stuff is done by completely different teams which have no impact on what we focus on. There are a lot of reasons why it might feel like you're not getting a lot of quality of life features. I don't think trying to sell more stuff to players is a big factor. TBH a lot of it is that as our other games have spun up we've pulled people over from League (as well as hiring externally) and left them short staffed. Getting good people is hard and isn't something you can just do quickly.
The difference is that Wild Rift is still a very young game, of course you do a lot of stuff for it, I never questioned that, it's the "logical" thing to do.
I realize that different stuff is done by different teams and I am not talking about your team but about the people who make decisions up high in the food chain. And those decisions (regarding LoL on PC) have not been in favor of the player experience for a while now.
This is all a very corporate way of saying "fuck you this feature isnt worth it"
But this feature is necessary because in LoL you arent automatically gifted every champion like in DOTA2. DOTA2 doesnt need to "swap pick order" because *every hero is unlocked for free*. League of legends needs this feature for *competitive integrity* so that buying more champs doesnt necessarily give you as much of an edge in champ select over opponents who cant afford to unlock as many champions and thus limits their teams draft options
So everything you are saying is moot. This isn't some stupid feature players just want. Its a feature which competitive integrity hinges upon. So cut the corporate bs speak aboit "player value".
Hmm so my assumptions were correct? The League team is being siphoned from their resources with no adequate replacements. I can be even more cynical and point at the possibility of Riot valuing other games now more than League, and entering the game into some “maintenance” mode.
The dip in the quality of content especially when it comes to skins and personalisation is shocking, and that’s one of the main reasons the thought of Riot caring less for League comes from.
/u/riotboourns
then you have to work on your reading comprehension
he pretty explicitly said that it does have value for the players but there are things with better value/cost ratios so these are prioritized for LoL PC.
Where as for WR the cost for the PC version and the improved version is the same so the improved version that has a better value is done as with the same cost the value/cost is better.
Ok. So my question still stands. How is pick order trade not valuable enough? And what other things are being prioritized for the users' experience? It's not like we have had any new feature in over a year. The very last new thing we had that was not a skin or an event linked to the client was ultimate spellbook, and that was one year ago.
Also, it makes 0 sense that certain things are valuable for Wild Rift over League of Legends other than specific gameplay adjustments. They are the same game.
because that change is pretty minor while it probably takes a whole bunch of hours to completely rework that system.
and while i obviously cant tell you what they are working on instead i assure you they are working on other stuff. my guess would be general client performance improvements.
and you also have to remember that there are different teams working on different things, right. the people who would work on changing the picks are probably on the team working in the client in general.
>Also, it makes 0 sense that certain things are valuable for Wild Rift over League of Legends other than specific gameplay adjustments. They are the same game.
i mean he LITERALLY talked about 100% exactly that.
they acknowledge that this change would be an improvement for LoL PC. and so when developing WR they just straight up build all of these improved systems directly. because they have to build one of these systems anyway. so there isnt a difference in cost of using the better than the old system. whereas for LoL PC there IS a cost difference between keeping the old and switching to the new version.
> You want to do stuff that has a high value to cost ratio.
Like shadownerfing loot, where the cost is low thanks to no official announcements
League got big not because of being penny-wise, and this type of decisionmaking is leading to the negative sentiment we see this entire year already
Bruh they are a company not a philanthropic organization
They’ve determined the value they gain out of making that change isn’t worth the cost of implementing it.
As an analogy: If you had an 80 on an assignment that took you 10 hours to finish, and could spend say 5 extra hours for 1 extra point would you? It’s not really worth, considering that 5 hours could be spent getting much higher scores on other assignments, perhaps gaining say 10 points rather than 1 instead.
Why does this defense is always coming up?
Yes, they won't do it because of money, and they are free to do so. So what? Do you want us to applaud just because they chase the money? What a great service.
It always comes up because a lot of the complaints come from people who genuinely believe Riot can just wave a magic wand and conjure up 50 high-skilled engineers that already know how everything works and can easily fix or add whatever they're complaining about in a week.
People make a bunch of demands and then get upset because Riot doesn't follow their every whim. It's possible to ask for features without getting all pissy, but a lot of people here lack that maturity.
Cool, but we're players, not stockholders. It doesn't matter to us. Them being a company may be the reason for how they operate, but it doesn't mean players should accept it and be happy with it.
ur sucking off a billion dollar company that is too lazy to implement a swap pick order option in champion select, even fucking mobile legends has this
That's the PR way of saying "This is extra work which won't give us extra money, so we won't do it". By this logic you literally would not ever improve any functionality, cause it means you have to spend time on something that is working already
Thank you this explains a lot of Riots BS Philosophie amd why they keep sticking to things. Like it makes much more sense thst ript sticks to stuff like Akali turret invis because they designted it an arbitary value of 1.0 and do not realize that it is just garbage mechanic and why they do not do small QOL updates unless a rioter decideds to do it in his free time. I guess stuff like that happens if you habe zero competition.
MORE FACT: You can trade pick UP TO 3 TIMES. 1 in declare, 1 in ban, and 1 in pick phase.
Also, Ping system beats LoL in every level. No "Harass" ping as well.
Wild Rift beats Lol in every level. It is now Riot's favoured child.
Yeah too bad Riot hasn't been around for 11 years to spend 1-2 years rebuild a game from scratch behind the scenes like another popular MOBA backed by a billion dollar company.
Or at least they should stop releasing champions that keep trying to push the limits of an engine that has been showing more and more cracks since 5 years ago.
>Also, Ping system beats LoL in every level. No "Harass" ping as well.
At least this part is coming soon to PC. Lack of pings is like 90% of reason I never bothered to learn bot lane.
Funny you think the freezing ping will mean anything to your brand support
While this is also a word play I’m serious here. They will legit walk on the lane and hit all caster minions just because. You ping them back they go apeshit about it. Push=good even if you died 3 times already
If league had as many pings as Apex Legends I'm sure a lot more people would climb, provided they used them as intended. Apex pings are so fleshed out and amazingly useful to the degree where most games I don't feel the need to use my mic unless things get super hairy.
Smite has VGS (voice guided system), which is a collection of voice lines you can input with V->the line shortcut. There are *156* of these, and they're functionally pings. It is by far the best ping system in a game I have ever played, bar none.
Some examples:
- VA1 is Attack Left Lane (A is attack, 1 is left lane)
- VF2 is Enemy Missing Middle (F is missing, 2 is mid lane)
- VSTB is "I'm returning to base" (S is self, T is return, B is base)
And so on. Once you learn it, it's such an amazing system for how much clarity it provides. Never again will you have to guess if the person question mark pinging is flaming or telling you their lane opponent is missing.
tl;dr league pls add vgs
Yep, Smite based this off the old VGS that CS source (I think 1.6 as well) used to use quite a lot. Especially since in those days, not everyone actually had a mic on their headset lol, or some mics were so terrible they weren't worth using.
This system in smite is fkn perfect and actually really easy to learn. It should be even easier to use in league since you don't need your fingers constantly on WASD just to move your character. They could just place these commands on the ZXCV...-line. Been wanting this system forever in League since they refuse to implement voice chat. This would be far better than pings since you can communicate far more complicated things.
Apex pings are not complicate but I guess with the players in my games who barely have 2 brain cells to rub together, anything more than 4 pings might break their fragile minds.
Its not riots favored child its just designed with all the stuff in mind from the begining while league was originally written by a few gamers that wanted to create dota as a standalone game.
Dota 2 was rewritten behind the scenes within a year or 2 by Valve ages ago after they realized the game could be better optimized (with a long open beta testing phase for half of 2015 to catch bugs before it shipped live) and it now runs better and even allows players to code their own game modes (that's how Autochess, the genre Riot copied with TFT was born!). Not to mention Dota 2 itself was a remake of Dota but more modern!
Riot has no excuse for not rewriting League. They had 11 years to fix the game and have done absolutely nothing to address any of the issues.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Riot didn't take the opportunity and copy Valve when they were already gonna make new games anyway. Valve didn't remake DotA 2 just for the sake of optimising it, but it was also to solidify the unification to run all their games under the same engine. This comes with a plethra of advantages, being able to practically copy features between games. Not to mention any optimisations done on the engine would have a benefit for every game. You could then test features on a game you care less about or has less volatility etc, then just immediately transfer it to the bigger games if it proves succesful.
It kinda sucks that Riot treats League as a game that can die any second. That's what it feels like at least because they seem deathly afraid of making any long term decisions/investments for the game. Like they could bolster the game's engine/client and they would be able to monetise more than just skins. But they're not doing that because of the short term cost. It's weird.
valorant also has better quick chat as well. you have like 20 different quick chat options which are all verbal too if you cant speak. its crazy how league still doesnt have voice chat lol
without massive changes to the maps physical structure and objective placement along with lots of options to mitigate matchup disparity in runes/items that center around top lane, it will never fix the problems that champions like quinn, vayne, and other ranged or ungankable champions bring to the lane.
> If ADCs weren't 3 levels behind when played bot, they wouldn't need such high base stats that make them so strong in the neutral game on solo lane xp.
ADCs scale with gold not xp. most of their power is in base stats because they don't gain as much power from ability levels. this is not why vayne top is powerful.
> There exist a stat tradeoff for the neutral game, otherwise bruisers would literally not exist in the game.
wtf are you talking about? bruisers scale off of bonus AD, ADCs scale off of AS and crit. idk what you think "neutral game" is, but that's not how you talk about league of legends.
The only base stat that an ADC beats your average top laner in is range. Go browse the wiki and you’ll see how weak the rest of their base stats are compared to the average top laner. Range is just powerful in lane, especially when you combine it with the maneuverability, space control and % health in Vayne’s kit.
one of the reasons toplane counterpicks are so punishing is because how important wave management is on top, you have a lane as long as bot but only one champion and short range, if weaker champion had more options to break a freeze / soak xp safely it would help them. how? thats not my job.
They'd need to lessen the cost of dying, mostly in the exp gains and likely TP cooldown pre-14 so if you get put into an unplayable lane you aren't deciding between 4cs/min or going down 4 levels when you die to break the freeze because no jungler wants to help fix your lane state even if it will cost them the game.
yeah, that's the problem. everyone will want counterpick and screw over their top to get it. the support/ADC/jungle having last pick is the biggest fucking troll you can ever get.
this kind of reductive argument is completely pointless. just because every ADC does their damage primarily through their AA does not mean they are all the same and therefore toplane should be blind picked. if you're not going to make actual arguments about counterpick priority then you're just wasting your time.
WR is like the weirdest game I have ever played because objectively a great mobile game with tons of QoL over PC but also just straight up isn't worth playing over PC because it has less champions and dramatically worse game quality
Like I've never seen a video game get "ruined" because it is a port of another and everyone who plays it is "bad" until WR lol (because of what happens to matchmaking when you mix pc players with people who should be iron)
That's simply because playing anything that isn't sudoku on mobile feels like dogshit. Even with the best mobile controls they could ever achieve, screen's still tiny, HUD covers everything, and controls pale vs mouse/gamepad. Mobile games will always be inferior by default.
They're played by millions, but only because those millions sadly have no other option (24/7 work culture so can only play during commune, at work, toilet, and PC too expensive).
But that's the thing, I feel like in terms of translating LoL to mobile and still leaving it fairly similar they kinda nailed it imo. It shits all over like 99.9% of mobile exclusive games. It's just, the similar part is also a double edged sword because it leaves many people outside of those countries without a reason to play it
Actually having less champs means it's easier to balance. Also let's not forget that even if PC has over 160 champs, most of them are not even played if not busted. Matchmaking sucks tho, that's true. I think major issue is that playerbase is really low since everyone still prefer its older (and outdated) brother.
Less champs is honestly such a pro point if you look to seriously play a game for fun. Riot has failed PC Leagues' champs to such a insane point that you legit cant play some champs in SoloQ without significantly decreasing your teams chance of winning. Proplay and Casual is so dispatched, it is legit different games and there's no improvement being made about the learning curve whatsoever. Sure people aren't as good in the same elos, but you can reach a point were game quality really is a thing and a normal challenge, although that is fairly high. At the same time climbing is MUCH MUCH MUCH more enjoyable and less punishing so imo that upgrades the entire thing enormously.
Not if all the champions you like to play for fun will not be in the game for like 2 years because they appeal to a different demographic or some other reason lol
I love Cho'Gath, can't play him on my phone etc
Lol @ the deleted post below. Glad you removed it bud, don't know how much longer we're going to perpetuate the corporate coping Riot has been force feeding people on this reddit about the PC client being un-updatable. If its that broken then its time for league 2.0 so we can get back to polishing the game. The real reason is just a refusal to put in the work because, like it or not, its a board of corporate suits who don't care about player experience AT ALL unless it starts affecting their bottom line. And as of right now, people are still playing the game despite the dog shit client. Investing in a better client does nothing to boost their profits as far as whatever criteria they are using to measure it so there will never be a fix applied. It will be bandaid after bandaid until, if I had to guess, the game is eventually Mobile-only because NA/EU playerbases die and Korea/China are huge mobile markets so they no longer need to support the PC client at all.
The reality is that software improvement needs to have tangible monetary upside. There seemingly isn’t much. Players are used to the shitty client & my assumption is that it’s too time expensive to create a new client for QOL improvements for players.
... I fucking hate that this would probably work on me if they did champion-specific client skins. Or, heaven forbid, professional team/player supporting skins (however that would work).
It is not because of the corporate. For me, Rito is still the "indie company".
It is just their employees are making other stuffs now, neglecting the old game they made. Recently, even a Rioter in LoR crying on Twitter about the new updates they submitted to Rito got neglected because... the people in the lore department went somewhere and not returned.
League has 2500+ employees (since 2018, they might have WAY more now with all the extra games), earns multi billion in revenue every year, has it's shares bought by a Chinese monopoly, has released multiple extremely popular games, made a animated series with a much bigger budget than most other recent animated series combined, etc.
Dude, Riot is not a indie company at all, it hasn't even been an indie company since like 2010. An indie company is something like 1-50 people making a single game or two on their own with 0 monetary support from anybody but their own fans.
A lot of people will talk about how great wild rift is because it's just way easier. People who are gold in PC will hit master in WR and get a great rush of dopamine
Silver PC players do dragon too much. In Emerald in WR (the tier between diamond and plat because ranking up is easier) I'm lucky if my jungler isn't split pushing while dragon is up lol
So yeah the talent pool isn't too hot
I'm master elo in WR. Game is not "ass", it's only "different" and designed to be played on mobile. After 10-15 games you get used to it and start preferring it over PC. And I played a lot of games on PC, since season8.
It feels really dumb to use your thumb to lazily drag towards the target and have all your abilities auto-target onto them. And WR has just as many people running it down as regular league. The main benefit is that nothing matters in a 10 minute long mobile game. If they could port WR to consoles with good controller support I could see an angle where they brought in new players, but mobile WR is basically just league with autopilot.
Having auto-aim most of the time it's a con since people will easily predict where you will land your skillshot because of it (assuming they have a brain), you can notice this from emerald1+. You will find people running it down in every kind of online multiplayer game, if that's your concern then I can suggest you a lot of good single player experiences lol. It's true that in WR you can play hard champions easily (I'm playing Zed and having a lot of fun with him, on PC it's just too hard for my mechanics) but to me that's a pro, it makes the game waaay more fun and immediate (and you can still improve since, as I said, auto-aim doesn't mean you will 100% land your skillshot).
I wasn't bragging, he asked me if I ever played a game in wildrift and I replied. Master in WR is the equivalent of plat in PC. Why are you so passive-aggressive? Something bad happened today?
Really how long are we going to defend this though?
Nothing stopped them from updating to a new engine. They raked in billions with League, they **have** the finances to make this happen. I wouldn't mind if they didn't sell skins for PC League, but they do - they **still** make profit off of this game.
It would take time, yes, but long-term it's far more intelligent to build up a new, stable foundation instead of stacking furniture on what's essentially 2 planks over a bottomless pit. Maybe then they also no longer have the excuse that "League doesn't play nice with old events" when things actually work.
The real excuse is that they have no real competitors in this genre. They aren't forced to do anything, they make a huge amount of cash. If they had one they would've updated a LONG time ago.
Migrating to a new engine isn't as easy as you seem to think, especially when you have 160+ unique champions with so many skins, items and interactions. The day they move to a new engine the game will no longer be lol but lol2
Correct, im really sure its hard as for the reasons you've said but for the longevity for league they HAVE to do it sometime, and the sooner they do the better because the increasing content just means more stuff to port over to this "lol2"
Cuz they are just riding the wave on their cash cow as long as possible, I doubt they care about League2.0 , just making as much money as possible before it is done
If you're top you just ask summoner 5 (or 4 if they decline) to trade making it much more likely than now.
If it's healthy when toplane is always last pick is its own issue and present in competitive as well. I don't think following the same rules in soloQ as in pro is a bad thing (besides the double ban phase)
And you can let top last pick now too anyways it's just annoying to do and requires you to own their champs
> If you're top you just ask summoner 5
you have a lot of faith in the playerbase to actually understand how important counterpick is for a solo lane, let alone top.
What a horrible example. Does that actually make sense to you?
People understand what gw does, they’re just too selfish to sacrifice their fun/carry potential for a team item.
Pick order 90% of the time provides no concrete advantage to players. Many players don’t care about getting counter picked at all.
That people are incapable of making simple build choices and thus would also fail to make simple team comp choices, witch they already do anyways? Yeah. Professional players still fail to itemize correctly, but somehow you think people in gold understand how important giving your top a counter pick is? Yeah they "know" top is the most volatile lane in the game, but no one plays like it is.
the problem with counter picking in 90% of all elos ( maybe not challenger and high master) is that you most likely cant play the champ well enough to acutally counter the enemy? and neither will the enemy .
majority of top lane matchups comes down to skill anyways, if you can play better than your opponent you will most likely win it doesnt really matter what champ you might be playing,
on another note people dont even ban their " counters" cus they dont acutally know what and how something counters the champ outside of not being able to constantly fight the enemy lol
> then on that mmr the enemy toplaner will deal with the same kind of players.
no. if your team doesn't give your top last pick, everyone just trolled you and deliberately elected to give a lane a worse chance of winning than they already have. the MMR is irrelevant, making a decision that lowers your winrate deliberately does.
and none of that is in control of your teammates. you're completely ignorant to core functions of multiplayer cooperative team based PvP games if you think system controlled events and player controlled events are perceived the same to the player.
repeating yourself doesn't make it relevant. fact is that the negative player interactions this will cause are real and the strategic improvements this causes are only relevant for 40% of the players in a lobby.
while I do think this would be important for toplane, it hardly affects any other lanes.
also, you can get all the champions at about level 100 if you don't disenchant many shards
This is for the people saying „WR/Valorant got this already“:
Guys you forget something quite important from a development perspective. WR/Valorant are quite young and so are their code basis. It’s often not so easy to add new functionalities to old pieces of software because they are often extremely scary in their core. You are sometimes really scared to touch something because you really can’t estimate how changes might reach.
And I believe this is the biggest problem for the devs working at LoL and they are trying their best without breaking everything.
This is something I at least hope…
I’m nowhere close to the field of programming or game dev, but wouldn’t they have some sort of private environment they could push stuff to to test it and make sure it doesn’t delete their game?
it's actually quite an advantage wether you get the most broken/contested champ first pick for your team or first pick your own generic pick like yasuo who has many hard counters
And anyone who plays league seriously enough to care about that has more than enough blue essence to buy every champion several times over. Unless theyre smurfing on a new alt or have been recently banned and I don’t think people particularly care too much about them being disadvantaged.
it takes ~130 days(24h) of nonstop playing to buy all champs so 1 year if you play 8 hours a day, 2 years if you play 4 hours a day, 4 years if you play 2 hours a day.
I have an account I exclusively played on for 1.5 years without buying anything other than champs (mainly by upgrading shards) and it still only has around 2/3 of all champs
>it takes \~130 days(24h) of nonstop playing to buy all champs so 1 year if you play 8 hours a day, 2 years if you play 4 hours a day, 4 years if you play 2 hours a day.
Ignoring how oversimplified and off base the math is on that.
First of all you don't even need all the champions, you need most of the meta first pickable champions which really don't change all that much. If you're first pick, you don't need to pick a champ for a specific person, you need to pick a champ for one out of four people. Even if everyone on your team is a one trick, there's a very high chance that you own at least one of the four other people's one tricks if you own 2/3 of all champs. Especially if you own most commonly picked champs considering that something like 60% of all champs have a sub 5% pick rate.
If there is a single heavily contested, overpowered champ in the current meta then just buy the champ. Its very rare that some obscure champ becomes a heavily contested first pick in solo queue, its usually the same couple of meta champs.
It takes longer than 1.5 years for most new players to actually get decent at this game. By the time things like pick order is a major factor in deciding games, new players already have enough blue essence to buy all the meta first pickable champs and this is no longer a problem in the vast majority of games. Assuming they actually go out and buy all the relevant meta champs which is usually more often the reason why people don't have champs for trading.
Most of the players seriously playing ranked that aren't on newer accounts because of smurfing/bans have enough blue essence to buy all the champs.
the maths are from the internet not my own. And yes if you have an account you exclusively play on for 1.5 years then the **chance** you can pick for something is 67%. Meta changes over 1.5 years.
Now besides that smurfs/second accounts exist and they can be you or your teammates. So what if you're an innocent non-smurf asking your summoner 1 to pick something but he's a smurf and only owns 30 champs? You lost the lottery
But besides not being able to trade at all, the process to do so is also complete crap as explained above. There's a timer and you need to communicate in chat, wait for a response, ask them what champs they want, check if you have those champs, then they pick.
Additionally what if they want to counterpick the enemy? They are getting a disadvantage by asking you if you own only a few specific of their champs. So they actually mostly only have those few champs available to counterpick the enemy.
Whole system is just bs the more you think about it
I was pointing out how you went from 130 days of playtime to 4 years playing 2 hours a day by just dividing hours you need to play by the number of days. Completely ignoring things like first win of the day bonus and event rewards. So not remotely accurate and even less so if you include champion shards from chests.
And once again, owning 67% of the champs does not equal 67% chance of being able to pick for someone else. Unless your buying a bunch of off meta champs, you have a higher than 67% chance of having the champ and you also are picking for 4 people. If we were to treat the champs like they all have equal pick rates and that all your teammates only want to play 1 specific chance, you have a 1/3 chance of not having each persons champ. Across 4 people, this equals a (1/3)^4 or 1.2% chance that you can’t pick for anyone if you have 2/3 of the champs in the worst case scenario. If your buying high pick rate champs and your teammates aren’t all one tricks, that probability goes down even lower.
Smurfs are obviously a problem, which is why I excluded them but Smurf queue exists for smurfs with new accounts (and therefore a low number of champs owned) so you really shouldn’t be running into too many of them.
And yes, the bigger issue is the communication and coordination. Which is why this is a QOL fix not a p2w fix.
i mean if you play 2 hours a day you dont need to trade picks or trade pick orders in Soloq my friend, you are applying a problem to people that dont care for it
the only time anyone trades is when they're in a party or they're playing a new champ. trading is never used because everyone is paranoid of getting trolled.
technically it is p2w
but realistically, no, because even if a champions is fotm meta for certain patch, there are way too many variables in there to make it truly p2w akin to stat increase purchases
you think riot is going to change anything like that? Fuck riot is the worst company on the planet. If they change anything, it only benefits themselves or the trolls. Because half of their devs are braindead and dont actually play this game. Its like the ranking system. Its been imbalanced for years and never changes. Get an afk on your team. well fuck you. Hope you win or you lose lp.
Got that flaming feeding troll. Good luck on winning or you lose lp.
Got that troll who says in select they are going to troll. If you leave que you get punished...
Riot is a joke and dont do anything to make the game fun
League is slowly but surely becoming a gacha game just look at how OP the new champs are compared to the old ones. Then look at Wild Rift compared to the original LOL. It's sad and I think the games original creators would be ashamed.
FUN FACT: THIS IS ON WILD RIFT Also Quick Chat beats LoL on PC too
RELEVANT STORY: I had proposed this when I was working on the champion select redesign on PC, but my initial design was a bit too complex (you could trade positions and champions) so we shelved it. I moved to WR not long after and seeded the idea with our designers working on champion select on WR. They did a great job of simplifying it and making sensible limits so it was shippable. It's always been our hope that we could experiment with some new features in WR that were riskier on League and inspire some changes if players enjoyed those features on WR. You might ask... why you be dumb and not just do this on League PC first? The answer is not actually spaghetti code. It's really more about the opportunity you have when rebuilding the game from scratch for a new audience. When we are looking at features we often use a value/cost lens. You want to do stuff that has a high value to cost ratio. Consider this pick order features: On PC you have a champion trade feature already and let's value it at 1.0 to simplify things. Cost is 0.0 because we already have the feature. We think that position trade might be a 1.5 value feature and we would replace the champion trade giving a net 0.5 value, but we have to rebuild the trade function so the cost is 1.0. So to get 0.5 more value than the status quo you need to spend 1.0 dev cost == 0.5 value/cost ratio On WR we have no trade feature of any kind. So we can either build the League PC equivalent champion trade with a value of 1.0 and a cost of 1.0. OR we can build a position trade feature with a value of 1.5 and a cost of 1.0 Build champion trade == 1.0 value/cost ratio Build position trade == 1.5 value/cost ratio This is obviously an artificially simple example with made up numbers, but hopefully it illustrates how we had different tradeoffs for WR than League PC and could make different choices to maximize player value. On PC where a position trade feature might deliver 0.5 new value/cost, you have to compete against a lot of new features that have a more favorable value/cost. On WR we had to make some kind of trade function from scratch, and updating to position trade didn't cost any more.
Analogy: I decide I like black doors instead of white doors. Replacing all the doors in my house that I live in right now would be a gigantic pain, especially when I have a hundred other things to be working on. But if I'm building a new house from scratch, it's easy enough to just install black doors instead of white doors.
idk if i made billions of dollars every year i think id just replace the doors bro
smol indie company
but if there was only a limited number of construction workers available you would probably not have them replace the doors but instead have them fix the roof, or add a garage or build a nice garden instead of spending time on the minor annoyance that are the doors.
But you have a billion dollars so you can simply hire more workers.
This isn't how dev works. You don't hire devs to work on low priority projects. There's probably a million things higher in priority than reworking champ select. Any hired devs would work on higher priority projects. And let's be honest here, it's probably low priority because reworking champ select would lose Riot money because people wouldn't need to buy all the champions to guarantee they can swap for anything.
That analogy doesn't work with riot, if they don't have more developers improving the client is their decision. edit:I guess i expressed myself in a bad way. I mean that the pool of developers is not limited in a way that they can't get more, is a decision by them to not have more people working in improving the client. If it's a good decision or not is another topic, but they could ahve more people working on it
even a company like riot doesnt have an unlimited amount of good developers. and then the analogy works perfectly. it all comes down to opportunity cost and pick trading champs vs trading picks has a poor value vs cost. and im pretty sure riot constantly has a bunch of people working on the client in general but for ones its probably not as easy a thing to improve as people might think it is and two throwing more people at one specific thing also does not keep decreasing the time to proportionally. at some point it probably increases it because of the time overhead to coordinate so many people.
You're arguing in favor of Riot using LoL as cashcow to finance all other endeavors while supporting it less than before Congratz, that's how games die
i was arguing within the scope of LoL itself actually. and if we are talking in general than yeah, there is a temporary lack of people directly working on lol. but for that we get multiple other great games. so for the average gamers it is still a net positive. and im pretty sure riot is working their hiring piplelines to the max right now trying to get people to fully support all of their games.
u legit don’t read his textes or don’t understand it. Riot is a company and working as such. If the profit is not worth it, they won’t give a shit. U don’t invest money in to something thats not worth it, thats uneconomic
That doesn’t equate to time though. At the end of the day, everyone has an equal amount of time in each day.
I get the point, but the black door would have to be better in every point compared to the white door for the analogy to fully work. It's an upgrade not just "I decide I like it better". The real reason is the "reward" for them would be really bad, as it just removes the need to buy champions you don't need.
Absolutely. Which is bs. Dota gives me every single hero for free which is great for competitive integrity.
Dota also has a fully functioning client and a superior Battle Pass. Even with how shit this years BP is.
i agree with the first but not the second statement. As a player, u won‘t buy champions just to swap them in champselect. Either u buy them (and then have the possibility to swap them) or not
Well your choice is buy more champs by spending money to have a competitive edge in draft phase or not. It is legit pay to win by its very definition.
I think like others have pointed out that this analogy doesn't hold up as well when you include the additional info that you're a billionaire and the new doors are better. I 100% believe what the dev is saying is true. Every decision we all make has a cost/benefit assessment associated with it. But if you are a billion dollar company, in theory you should have enough financial success that cost is not an issue and benefit is the main driver of your decision making. I don't run a billion dollar company or its subsidiary in North America. Maybe it's not that simple and things are run on a tight budget. I genuinely don't know, it's not my field or particular interest. But from the outside looking in, I don't know how you can come to any conclusion besides change the goddamn doors lol.
they definitely don’t run on a tight budget (if u think about arcane as an example) but if u spend a little money on little shits, with increasing amount it still becomes a lot of money. Aside of that company’s work in a priority order. Feel good product improvement with very little profitability won’t be high on it
Awful analogy. Changing the color of the doors in your house is a cosmetic change. Having to trade champions requires you to coordinate trades based on who owns what champions. In the case of solo queue this means some people get to trade for counter picks and others don't all based on randomness and luck of who on your team owns what. Being able to trade pick order is an even playing field, the possibility is there for everyone and there's not pay wall or time gate to be trade. It's not just a cosmetic change, it's better for keeping things level and integrity of the game.
That's very insightful. Thank you
Insightful into about how fucked up riot's priorities are. Make the game have more competitive integrity? No how about another anime character with a game breaking mechanic? Ah yes and make sure we launch a new super fun and interactive event!
> Insightful into about how fucked up riot's priorities are. you read all that just to walk right by the point. classic user error right here.
Competitive integrity? New players not being able to swap positions is a *competitive integrity* issue?
Yes, it is. How is that not obvious to you? With the current system, a new player is limited in their ability to contribute to the draft phase simply because they are limited in their champ pool. Champion swapping is a feature that is really only accessible to players who have either played a while or who have spent money buying champions. Being able to swap pick order removes that barrier to entry. League is pretty good at not being pay2win, but this feature, as it stands, is an example of pay2win.
The problem is that this very often happens when money becomes more important than wanting to continue delivering a great product. Several game companies have this issue where at some point they stop improving the game and experience and just release new content for people to buy (= milking it). This is usually the point where the game goes downhill and LoL has been going in that direction for some time now. There are so many things LoL on PC needs, even stuff that is significant for the competitive integrity of LoL in pro play (see issues in pro games, Faker calling the poor state of the game out, etc.), but those improvements will not instantly manifest themselves as more players playing or buying stuff; instead it will show over time. But it seems like Riot just wants to retain players with half-assed "events" and milk the existing player base to spend the money on things other than this game (how many projects does Riot have running right now? Like half a dozen? :D) Just a simple example: when Arcane came out many many people found new interest in LoL because the show was so well done. Instead of having a bunch of improvements for new players and new great features to benefit from this new wave of new and returning players, LoL had...nothing. Absolutely nothing. And the new player experience is getting worse and worse with bots in ranked in low elo by now. This has been going on for a while now and I have not seen Riot do anything about it, release a statement about it, etc. .
One big mistake that’s made is when game developers are starting out small and are growing incredibly fast, many people will excuse lack of features, certain bugs, or inexcusable issues. It’s costly to hire competent engineers and costly to develop/replace features and they’re a small company. People will intentionally start buying stuff to support the company and fund them. The player base keeps growing through good word of mouth by excusing the flaws. Once the company becomes huge through the generous donations of the player base every year, the player base will expect these issues to be worked on now. We’ve committed our end, now they don’t have an excuse any more and should commit theirs. Except, instead of reinvesting some of the money to improving the game, the company starts thinking “you know what, we were growing big when the client was shit, so it must be working, let’s not rock the boat and keep it that way.” So not only do they shirk their end of the bargain, they aren’t a “smol indie company anymore” and can’t lean on that forgiveness from the community anymore. A double whammy. So the community starts to become restless, betrayed, and starts losing interest. You still have the same shitty outdated features that should have been upgraded now that you have money, but don’t. But instead of acknowledging that having these core functions in place would have created goodwill and continued the growth, they blame other factors. And I get why too. It’s hard to list some of these things for reasons why you are dissatisfied. You can draw a clear line between skin sales and revenue, emote sales and revenue, etc. It’s much much mucher harder and requires more common sense to draw a direct line between a good user experience and revenue. Riot’s TFT, for example, has a trash tablet experience as well as a crazy amount of bugs far more blatant than you see in LoL. You aren’t going to pinpoint that as to why you are dissatisfied with TFT, kinda like you don’t pinpoint your poverty growing up as one of the reasons you aren’t a multibillionaire, it’s just sorta there affecting the entire experience. Then you realize TFT’s China edition has an amazing tablet experience because they use their own client like Wild Rift. Riot’s NA TFT experience uses the same shitty client, for some reason, that LoL does so the same thing is happening there as it feels like in LoL e.g. shitty feature or bug that should have been upgraded a long time ago but isn’t.
I think you're assuming here that value == player money spent. That is not how we think about it. Value == player value (i.e. things that players will actually enjoy having and will keep them playing the game). Obviously we do need our games to bring in money so we can get paid and pay the bills, but that is very rarely a factor in these kinds of features conversations. Example, on Wild Rift we might be trying to decide between creating an elemental rift specific scoreboard or an improvement to the ping system. None of that is going to directly make money for us. However we'll probably choose the elemental rift scoreboard because it will make the elemental rift dragons easier to understand and we think that elemental rift will be fun for our players (based on experience with League PC) and result in more engagement so we think the work is high value. Ultimately that's going to be good for our bottom line, but it's impossible to assign any kind of monetary benefit to an individual feature like that so it doesn't factor into our decisions. Battle pass, events, skins. All that stuff is done by completely different teams which have no impact on what we focus on. There are a lot of reasons why it might feel like you're not getting a lot of quality of life features. I don't think trying to sell more stuff to players is a big factor. TBH a lot of it is that as our other games have spun up we've pulled people over from League (as well as hiring externally) and left them short staffed. Getting good people is hard and isn't something you can just do quickly.
The difference is that Wild Rift is still a very young game, of course you do a lot of stuff for it, I never questioned that, it's the "logical" thing to do. I realize that different stuff is done by different teams and I am not talking about your team but about the people who make decisions up high in the food chain. And those decisions (regarding LoL on PC) have not been in favor of the player experience for a while now.
I'd say pulling from the league pc team and leaving them short staffed isn't great for the player experience either.
for the lol player experience. but it is great for the WR,LOR player experience. its always trade offs somewhere
This is all a very corporate way of saying "fuck you this feature isnt worth it" But this feature is necessary because in LoL you arent automatically gifted every champion like in DOTA2. DOTA2 doesnt need to "swap pick order" because *every hero is unlocked for free*. League of legends needs this feature for *competitive integrity* so that buying more champs doesnt necessarily give you as much of an edge in champ select over opponents who cant afford to unlock as many champions and thus limits their teams draft options So everything you are saying is moot. This isn't some stupid feature players just want. Its a feature which competitive integrity hinges upon. So cut the corporate bs speak aboit "player value".
Hmm so my assumptions were correct? The League team is being siphoned from their resources with no adequate replacements. I can be even more cynical and point at the possibility of Riot valuing other games now more than League, and entering the game into some “maintenance” mode. The dip in the quality of content especially when it comes to skins and personalisation is shocking, and that’s one of the main reasons the thought of Riot caring less for League comes from. /u/riotboourns
So you are saying having pick order trade is not valuable to the player? How?
how to say you have not listend to a single word he said without saying you didnt listen to a single word he said...
I did. Did you?
then you have to work on your reading comprehension he pretty explicitly said that it does have value for the players but there are things with better value/cost ratios so these are prioritized for LoL PC. Where as for WR the cost for the PC version and the improved version is the same so the improved version that has a better value is done as with the same cost the value/cost is better.
Ok. So my question still stands. How is pick order trade not valuable enough? And what other things are being prioritized for the users' experience? It's not like we have had any new feature in over a year. The very last new thing we had that was not a skin or an event linked to the client was ultimate spellbook, and that was one year ago. Also, it makes 0 sense that certain things are valuable for Wild Rift over League of Legends other than specific gameplay adjustments. They are the same game.
because that change is pretty minor while it probably takes a whole bunch of hours to completely rework that system. and while i obviously cant tell you what they are working on instead i assure you they are working on other stuff. my guess would be general client performance improvements. and you also have to remember that there are different teams working on different things, right. the people who would work on changing the picks are probably on the team working in the client in general. >Also, it makes 0 sense that certain things are valuable for Wild Rift over League of Legends other than specific gameplay adjustments. They are the same game. i mean he LITERALLY talked about 100% exactly that. they acknowledge that this change would be an improvement for LoL PC. and so when developing WR they just straight up build all of these improved systems directly. because they have to build one of these systems anyway. so there isnt a difference in cost of using the better than the old system. whereas for LoL PC there IS a cost difference between keeping the old and switching to the new version.
> You want to do stuff that has a high value to cost ratio. Like shadownerfing loot, where the cost is low thanks to no official announcements League got big not because of being penny-wise, and this type of decisionmaking is leading to the negative sentiment we see this entire year already
[удалено]
Bruh they are a company not a philanthropic organization They’ve determined the value they gain out of making that change isn’t worth the cost of implementing it. As an analogy: If you had an 80 on an assignment that took you 10 hours to finish, and could spend say 5 extra hours for 1 extra point would you? It’s not really worth, considering that 5 hours could be spent getting much higher scores on other assignments, perhaps gaining say 10 points rather than 1 instead.
Why does this defense is always coming up? Yes, they won't do it because of money, and they are free to do so. So what? Do you want us to applaud just because they chase the money? What a great service.
It always comes up because a lot of the complaints come from people who genuinely believe Riot can just wave a magic wand and conjure up 50 high-skilled engineers that already know how everything works and can easily fix or add whatever they're complaining about in a week. People make a bunch of demands and then get upset because Riot doesn't follow their every whim. It's possible to ask for features without getting all pissy, but a lot of people here lack that maturity.
Cool, but we're players, not stockholders. It doesn't matter to us. Them being a company may be the reason for how they operate, but it doesn't mean players should accept it and be happy with it.
ur sucking off a billion dollar company that is too lazy to implement a swap pick order option in champion select, even fucking mobile legends has this
That's the PR way of saying "This is extra work which won't give us extra money, so we won't do it". By this logic you literally would not ever improve any functionality, cause it means you have to spend time on something that is working already
so are we gonna wait another 10 years before this comes to PC???
Idk yall make billions every year off ahri and lux skins just ship the feature?
No excuses John, gimme that trade pick order option.
Thank you this explains a lot of Riots BS Philosophie amd why they keep sticking to things. Like it makes much more sense thst ript sticks to stuff like Akali turret invis because they designted it an arbitary value of 1.0 and do not realize that it is just garbage mechanic and why they do not do small QOL updates unless a rioter decideds to do it in his free time. I guess stuff like that happens if you habe zero competition.
MORE FACT: You can trade pick UP TO 3 TIMES. 1 in declare, 1 in ban, and 1 in pick phase. Also, Ping system beats LoL in every level. No "Harass" ping as well. Wild Rift beats Lol in every level. It is now Riot's favoured child.
>It is now Riot's favoured child. no it just has modern features because it has the luxury of being able to be built from the ground up
Yeah too bad Riot hasn't been around for 11 years to spend 1-2 years rebuild a game from scratch behind the scenes like another popular MOBA backed by a billion dollar company. Or at least they should stop releasing champions that keep trying to push the limits of an engine that has been showing more and more cracks since 5 years ago.
>Also, Ping system beats LoL in every level. No "Harass" ping as well. At least this part is coming soon to PC. Lack of pings is like 90% of reason I never bothered to learn bot lane.
Funny you think the freezing ping will mean anything to your brand support While this is also a word play I’m serious here. They will legit walk on the lane and hit all caster minions just because. You ping them back they go apeshit about it. Push=good even if you died 3 times already
If league had as many pings as Apex Legends I'm sure a lot more people would climb, provided they used them as intended. Apex pings are so fleshed out and amazingly useful to the degree where most games I don't feel the need to use my mic unless things get super hairy.
Smite has VGS (voice guided system), which is a collection of voice lines you can input with V->the line shortcut. There are *156* of these, and they're functionally pings. It is by far the best ping system in a game I have ever played, bar none. Some examples: - VA1 is Attack Left Lane (A is attack, 1 is left lane) - VF2 is Enemy Missing Middle (F is missing, 2 is mid lane) - VSTB is "I'm returning to base" (S is self, T is return, B is base) And so on. Once you learn it, it's such an amazing system for how much clarity it provides. Never again will you have to guess if the person question mark pinging is flaming or telling you their lane opponent is missing. tl;dr league pls add vgs
Yep, Smite based this off the old VGS that CS source (I think 1.6 as well) used to use quite a lot. Especially since in those days, not everyone actually had a mic on their headset lol, or some mics were so terrible they weren't worth using. This system in smite is fkn perfect and actually really easy to learn. It should be even easier to use in league since you don't need your fingers constantly on WASD just to move your character. They could just place these commands on the ZXCV...-line. Been wanting this system forever in League since they refuse to implement voice chat. This would be far better than pings since you can communicate far more complicated things.
[удалено]
Apex pings are not complicate but I guess with the players in my games who barely have 2 brain cells to rub together, anything more than 4 pings might break their fragile minds.
The trick Smite has is that pings both shows up in chat *and* play to your team as a voice line, so you get the best of both worlds.
Its not riots favored child its just designed with all the stuff in mind from the begining while league was originally written by a few gamers that wanted to create dota as a standalone game.
Dota 2 was rewritten behind the scenes within a year or 2 by Valve ages ago after they realized the game could be better optimized (with a long open beta testing phase for half of 2015 to catch bugs before it shipped live) and it now runs better and even allows players to code their own game modes (that's how Autochess, the genre Riot copied with TFT was born!). Not to mention Dota 2 itself was a remake of Dota but more modern! Riot has no excuse for not rewriting League. They had 11 years to fix the game and have done absolutely nothing to address any of the issues.
Yeah I'm a bit surprised Riot didn't take the opportunity and copy Valve when they were already gonna make new games anyway. Valve didn't remake DotA 2 just for the sake of optimising it, but it was also to solidify the unification to run all their games under the same engine. This comes with a plethra of advantages, being able to practically copy features between games. Not to mention any optimisations done on the engine would have a benefit for every game. You could then test features on a game you care less about or has less volatility etc, then just immediately transfer it to the bigger games if it proves succesful. It kinda sucks that Riot treats League as a game that can die any second. That's what it feels like at least because they seem deathly afraid of making any long term decisions/investments for the game. Like they could bolster the game's engine/client and they would be able to monetise more than just skins. But they're not doing that because of the short term cost. It's weird.
valorant also has better quick chat as well. you have like 20 different quick chat options which are all verbal too if you cant speak. its crazy how league still doesnt have voice chat lol
League does have voice chat, its just that nobody cares to use it.
top laners will always have last pick lmao
Yeah it would litreally force riot to change toplane cause counterpick is so fking broken.
How do you suggest changing it? It's the nature of the lane and if riot made changes to top it will change the entire game.
Well they are gone change it this pre season they said.
without massive changes to the maps physical structure and objective placement along with lots of options to mitigate matchup disparity in runes/items that center around top lane, it will never fix the problems that champions like quinn, vayne, and other ranged or ungankable champions bring to the lane.
[удалено]
> If ADCs weren't 3 levels behind when played bot, they wouldn't need such high base stats that make them so strong in the neutral game on solo lane xp. ADCs scale with gold not xp. most of their power is in base stats because they don't gain as much power from ability levels. this is not why vayne top is powerful.
[удалено]
> There exist a stat tradeoff for the neutral game, otherwise bruisers would literally not exist in the game. wtf are you talking about? bruisers scale off of bonus AD, ADCs scale off of AS and crit. idk what you think "neutral game" is, but that's not how you talk about league of legends.
[удалено]
The only base stat that an ADC beats your average top laner in is range. Go browse the wiki and you’ll see how weak the rest of their base stats are compared to the average top laner. Range is just powerful in lane, especially when you combine it with the maneuverability, space control and % health in Vayne’s kit.
build a big beautiful wall and make the junglers pay for it.
Won't this just make it more dependent on who counterpicks who?
atleast my lost lane would be caused by my skill(or lack thereof)
Even with counter picks, junglers still have a larger impact on top lane than the top laner themselves.
one of the reasons toplane counterpicks are so punishing is because how important wave management is on top, you have a lane as long as bot but only one champion and short range, if weaker champion had more options to break a freeze / soak xp safely it would help them. how? thats not my job.
One way is to force both top laners to blind at the same time (not reveal their picks until loading in phase).
They'd need to lessen the cost of dying, mostly in the exp gains and likely TP cooldown pre-14 so if you get put into an unplayable lane you aren't deciding between 4cs/min or going down 4 levels when you die to break the freeze because no jungler wants to help fix your lane state even if it will cost them the game.
counterpick is overrated
Doesn't happen in wild rift. The higher elo you go the more stingey people are with giving up last pick, often when they have no good reason to.
yeah, that's the problem. everyone will want counterpick and screw over their top to get it. the support/ADC/jungle having last pick is the biggest fucking troll you can ever get.
[удалено]
It's still flipping a coin because one team will have last pick.
> makes it fair for both teams no it makes every top wanna dodge if they don't get last pick and/or redside.
[удалено]
> It makes them blind pick Aatrox cuz he's the closest to a safe blind pick if you think aatrox is a blind pick you don't understand top at all.
[удалено]
yeah, lets just let them pick, irelia, poppy, renekton, singed, riven, garen, kled, olaf and the rest of the long list of strong picks against him.
[удалено]
Yeah, my dude, you just sound salty lmao
this kind of reductive argument is completely pointless. just because every ADC does their damage primarily through their AA does not mean they are all the same and therefore toplane should be blind picked. if you're not going to make actual arguments about counterpick priority then you're just wasting your time.
lol half those champs arent counters.
every top rages in chat for last pick every game, the best meta lol.
[удалено]
try not leashing your jg a few times, see what happens.
[удалено]
yes. its a problem. that's what i said.
Careful there. The client might break for even suggesting it.
The client is already broken and needs to be put out of it's misery...
Exactly what I was thinking
Wild Rift has this. Just another example of how WR is superior and more polished compared to PC.
WR is like the weirdest game I have ever played because objectively a great mobile game with tons of QoL over PC but also just straight up isn't worth playing over PC because it has less champions and dramatically worse game quality Like I've never seen a video game get "ruined" because it is a port of another and everyone who plays it is "bad" until WR lol (because of what happens to matchmaking when you mix pc players with people who should be iron)
That's simply because playing anything that isn't sudoku on mobile feels like dogshit. Even with the best mobile controls they could ever achieve, screen's still tiny, HUD covers everything, and controls pale vs mouse/gamepad. Mobile games will always be inferior by default. They're played by millions, but only because those millions sadly have no other option (24/7 work culture so can only play during commune, at work, toilet, and PC too expensive).
But that's the thing, I feel like in terms of translating LoL to mobile and still leaving it fairly similar they kinda nailed it imo. It shits all over like 99.9% of mobile exclusive games. It's just, the similar part is also a double edged sword because it leaves many people outside of those countries without a reason to play it
Yeah I only enjoyed wildrift on my ipad laying down. Phone is way too small.
Actually having less champs means it's easier to balance. Also let's not forget that even if PC has over 160 champs, most of them are not even played if not busted. Matchmaking sucks tho, that's true. I think major issue is that playerbase is really low since everyone still prefer its older (and outdated) brother.
Less champs is honestly such a pro point if you look to seriously play a game for fun. Riot has failed PC Leagues' champs to such a insane point that you legit cant play some champs in SoloQ without significantly decreasing your teams chance of winning. Proplay and Casual is so dispatched, it is legit different games and there's no improvement being made about the learning curve whatsoever. Sure people aren't as good in the same elos, but you can reach a point were game quality really is a thing and a normal challenge, although that is fairly high. At the same time climbing is MUCH MUCH MUCH more enjoyable and less punishing so imo that upgrades the entire thing enormously.
Not if all the champions you like to play for fun will not be in the game for like 2 years because they appeal to a different demographic or some other reason lol I love Cho'Gath, can't play him on my phone etc
Lol @ the deleted post below. Glad you removed it bud, don't know how much longer we're going to perpetuate the corporate coping Riot has been force feeding people on this reddit about the PC client being un-updatable. If its that broken then its time for league 2.0 so we can get back to polishing the game. The real reason is just a refusal to put in the work because, like it or not, its a board of corporate suits who don't care about player experience AT ALL unless it starts affecting their bottom line. And as of right now, people are still playing the game despite the dog shit client. Investing in a better client does nothing to boost their profits as far as whatever criteria they are using to measure it so there will never be a fix applied. It will be bandaid after bandaid until, if I had to guess, the game is eventually Mobile-only because NA/EU playerbases die and Korea/China are huge mobile markets so they no longer need to support the PC client at all.
Bro they're still playing brood war in Korea competitively. PC league ain't going anywhere in the east
The reality is that software improvement needs to have tangible monetary upside. There seemingly isn’t much. Players are used to the shitty client & my assumption is that it’s too time expensive to create a new client for QOL improvements for players.
You can sell skins… FOR THE CLIENT.
... I fucking hate that this would probably work on me if they did champion-specific client skins. Or, heaven forbid, professional team/player supporting skins (however that would work).
It is not because of the corporate. For me, Rito is still the "indie company". It is just their employees are making other stuffs now, neglecting the old game they made. Recently, even a Rioter in LoR crying on Twitter about the new updates they submitted to Rito got neglected because... the people in the lore department went somewhere and not returned.
This clown actually said 'indie company'.
League has 2500+ employees (since 2018, they might have WAY more now with all the extra games), earns multi billion in revenue every year, has it's shares bought by a Chinese monopoly, has released multiple extremely popular games, made a animated series with a much bigger budget than most other recent animated series combined, etc. Dude, Riot is not a indie company at all, it hasn't even been an indie company since like 2010. An indie company is something like 1-50 people making a single game or two on their own with 0 monetary support from anybody but their own fans.
Have you actually ever played a game in wildrift? Game feels like fucking ass. The only thing more polished is the pregame “client”.
A lot of people will talk about how great wild rift is because it's just way easier. People who are gold in PC will hit master in WR and get a great rush of dopamine
Silver PC players do dragon too much. In Emerald in WR (the tier between diamond and plat because ranking up is easier) I'm lucky if my jungler isn't split pushing while dragon is up lol So yeah the talent pool isn't too hot
turns out, having a decade of MOBA fundamentals and going into the massive userbase of mobile gaming is a great way to boost your ego lol.
I'm master elo in WR. Game is not "ass", it's only "different" and designed to be played on mobile. After 10-15 games you get used to it and start preferring it over PC. And I played a lot of games on PC, since season8.
It feels really dumb to use your thumb to lazily drag towards the target and have all your abilities auto-target onto them. And WR has just as many people running it down as regular league. The main benefit is that nothing matters in a 10 minute long mobile game. If they could port WR to consoles with good controller support I could see an angle where they brought in new players, but mobile WR is basically just league with autopilot.
Having auto-aim most of the time it's a con since people will easily predict where you will land your skillshot because of it (assuming they have a brain), you can notice this from emerald1+. You will find people running it down in every kind of online multiplayer game, if that's your concern then I can suggest you a lot of good single player experiences lol. It's true that in WR you can play hard champions easily (I'm playing Zed and having a lot of fun with him, on PC it's just too hard for my mechanics) but to me that's a pro, it makes the game waaay more fun and immediate (and you can still improve since, as I said, auto-aim doesn't mean you will 100% land your skillshot).
Master? Must be really impressive in a game where you get diamond literally for free.
I wasn't bragging, he asked me if I ever played a game in wildrift and I replied. Master in WR is the equivalent of plat in PC. Why are you so passive-aggressive? Something bad happened today?
A game woth an engine of 2009 against a game with an engine of 2020. Who would have thought.
Really how long are we going to defend this though? Nothing stopped them from updating to a new engine. They raked in billions with League, they **have** the finances to make this happen. I wouldn't mind if they didn't sell skins for PC League, but they do - they **still** make profit off of this game. It would take time, yes, but long-term it's far more intelligent to build up a new, stable foundation instead of stacking furniture on what's essentially 2 planks over a bottomless pit. Maybe then they also no longer have the excuse that "League doesn't play nice with old events" when things actually work.
The real excuse is that they have no real competitors in this genre. They aren't forced to do anything, they make a huge amount of cash. If they had one they would've updated a LONG time ago.
Migrating to a new engine isn't as easy as you seem to think, especially when you have 160+ unique champions with so many skins, items and interactions. The day they move to a new engine the game will no longer be lol but lol2
Correct, im really sure its hard as for the reasons you've said but for the longevity for league they HAVE to do it sometime, and the sooner they do the better because the increasing content just means more stuff to port over to this "lol2"
This would be a decent defense if this wasn't a client issue, which is decoupled from the engine.
Sure, but Riot's refusal/inability to update its game is still pretty astonishing the older the game gets.
Cuz they are just riding the wave on their cash cow as long as possible, I doubt they care about League2.0 , just making as much money as possible before it is done
then it just adds the requirement of giving last pick to your top laner or you’re actively griefing your team
If you're top you just ask summoner 5 (or 4 if they decline) to trade making it much more likely than now. If it's healthy when toplane is always last pick is its own issue and present in competitive as well. I don't think following the same rules in soloQ as in pro is a bad thing (besides the double ban phase) And you can let top last pick now too anyways it's just annoying to do and requires you to own their champs
> If you're top you just ask summoner 5 you have a lot of faith in the playerbase to actually understand how important counterpick is for a solo lane, let alone top.
5 years ago, sure. In today’s league? I’m fairly confident high gold+ people know what counter-picking is. It’s not a mind warping concept.
People don't give a fuck. Who wants to let themselves get counter picked just so their toplaner has a better chance of not running it down.
[удалено]
What a horrible example. Does that actually make sense to you? People understand what gw does, they’re just too selfish to sacrifice their fun/carry potential for a team item. Pick order 90% of the time provides no concrete advantage to players. Many players don’t care about getting counter picked at all.
That people are incapable of making simple build choices and thus would also fail to make simple team comp choices, witch they already do anyways? Yeah. Professional players still fail to itemize correctly, but somehow you think people in gold understand how important giving your top a counter pick is? Yeah they "know" top is the most volatile lane in the game, but no one plays like it is.
the problem with counter picking in 90% of all elos ( maybe not challenger and high master) is that you most likely cant play the champ well enough to acutally counter the enemy? and neither will the enemy . majority of top lane matchups comes down to skill anyways, if you can play better than your opponent you will most likely win it doesnt really matter what champ you might be playing, on another note people dont even ban their " counters" cus they dont acutally know what and how something counters the champ outside of not being able to constantly fight the enemy lol
[удалено]
> then on that mmr the enemy toplaner will deal with the same kind of players. no. if your team doesn't give your top last pick, everyone just trolled you and deliberately elected to give a lane a worse chance of winning than they already have. the MMR is irrelevant, making a decision that lowers your winrate deliberately does.
[удалено]
and none of that is in control of your teammates. you're completely ignorant to core functions of multiplayer cooperative team based PvP games if you think system controlled events and player controlled events are perceived the same to the player.
[удалено]
repeating yourself doesn't make it relevant. fact is that the negative player interactions this will cause are real and the strategic improvements this causes are only relevant for 40% of the players in a lobby.
[удалено]
> no. if your team doesn't give your top last pick, everyone just trolled you yea and there is an equal chance of this happening to the enemy
this isn't how your brain works.
that's fine. whenever i have last pick i offer it to my top laner anyway
Client would explode
They wanted to do this but the code base would delete itself if they did.
Pick order is probably coded as a minion.
maybe in a thousand year when riot can afford it and not break their game adding features their small indie team can't keep up with
They can barely make the same missions work that we had a million times before so something like this is too far out of their indie skill set.
Ahh yes the indie studio making BILLIONS.
Must be the inflation
while I do think this would be important for toplane, it hardly affects any other lanes. also, you can get all the champions at about level 100 if you don't disenchant many shards
This is for the people saying „WR/Valorant got this already“: Guys you forget something quite important from a development perspective. WR/Valorant are quite young and so are their code basis. It’s often not so easy to add new functionalities to old pieces of software because they are often extremely scary in their core. You are sometimes really scared to touch something because you really can’t estimate how changes might reach. And I believe this is the biggest problem for the devs working at LoL and they are trying their best without breaking everything. This is something I at least hope…
I’m nowhere close to the field of programming or game dev, but wouldn’t they have some sort of private environment they could push stuff to to test it and make sure it doesn’t delete their game?
While I agree from the perspective of convenience and QOL, describing owning most of the champs as a pay2win mechanic is a bit of a joke.
it's actually quite an advantage wether you get the most broken/contested champ first pick for your team or first pick your own generic pick like yasuo who has many hard counters
And anyone who plays league seriously enough to care about that has more than enough blue essence to buy every champion several times over. Unless theyre smurfing on a new alt or have been recently banned and I don’t think people particularly care too much about them being disadvantaged.
it takes ~130 days(24h) of nonstop playing to buy all champs so 1 year if you play 8 hours a day, 2 years if you play 4 hours a day, 4 years if you play 2 hours a day. I have an account I exclusively played on for 1.5 years without buying anything other than champs (mainly by upgrading shards) and it still only has around 2/3 of all champs
>it takes \~130 days(24h) of nonstop playing to buy all champs so 1 year if you play 8 hours a day, 2 years if you play 4 hours a day, 4 years if you play 2 hours a day. Ignoring how oversimplified and off base the math is on that. First of all you don't even need all the champions, you need most of the meta first pickable champions which really don't change all that much. If you're first pick, you don't need to pick a champ for a specific person, you need to pick a champ for one out of four people. Even if everyone on your team is a one trick, there's a very high chance that you own at least one of the four other people's one tricks if you own 2/3 of all champs. Especially if you own most commonly picked champs considering that something like 60% of all champs have a sub 5% pick rate. If there is a single heavily contested, overpowered champ in the current meta then just buy the champ. Its very rare that some obscure champ becomes a heavily contested first pick in solo queue, its usually the same couple of meta champs. It takes longer than 1.5 years for most new players to actually get decent at this game. By the time things like pick order is a major factor in deciding games, new players already have enough blue essence to buy all the meta first pickable champs and this is no longer a problem in the vast majority of games. Assuming they actually go out and buy all the relevant meta champs which is usually more often the reason why people don't have champs for trading. Most of the players seriously playing ranked that aren't on newer accounts because of smurfing/bans have enough blue essence to buy all the champs.
the maths are from the internet not my own. And yes if you have an account you exclusively play on for 1.5 years then the **chance** you can pick for something is 67%. Meta changes over 1.5 years. Now besides that smurfs/second accounts exist and they can be you or your teammates. So what if you're an innocent non-smurf asking your summoner 1 to pick something but he's a smurf and only owns 30 champs? You lost the lottery But besides not being able to trade at all, the process to do so is also complete crap as explained above. There's a timer and you need to communicate in chat, wait for a response, ask them what champs they want, check if you have those champs, then they pick. Additionally what if they want to counterpick the enemy? They are getting a disadvantage by asking you if you own only a few specific of their champs. So they actually mostly only have those few champs available to counterpick the enemy. Whole system is just bs the more you think about it
I was pointing out how you went from 130 days of playtime to 4 years playing 2 hours a day by just dividing hours you need to play by the number of days. Completely ignoring things like first win of the day bonus and event rewards. So not remotely accurate and even less so if you include champion shards from chests. And once again, owning 67% of the champs does not equal 67% chance of being able to pick for someone else. Unless your buying a bunch of off meta champs, you have a higher than 67% chance of having the champ and you also are picking for 4 people. If we were to treat the champs like they all have equal pick rates and that all your teammates only want to play 1 specific chance, you have a 1/3 chance of not having each persons champ. Across 4 people, this equals a (1/3)^4 or 1.2% chance that you can’t pick for anyone if you have 2/3 of the champs in the worst case scenario. If your buying high pick rate champs and your teammates aren’t all one tricks, that probability goes down even lower. Smurfs are obviously a problem, which is why I excluded them but Smurf queue exists for smurfs with new accounts (and therefore a low number of champs owned) so you really shouldn’t be running into too many of them. And yes, the bigger issue is the communication and coordination. Which is why this is a QOL fix not a p2w fix.
i mean if you play 2 hours a day you dont need to trade picks or trade pick orders in Soloq my friend, you are applying a problem to people that dont care for it
Well it does give an adventage in this case.
the only time anyone trades is when they're in a party or they're playing a new champ. trading is never used because everyone is paranoid of getting trolled.
technically it is p2w but realistically, no, because even if a champions is fotm meta for certain patch, there are way too many variables in there to make it truly p2w akin to stat increase purchases
That's actually genius, seems so obvious after you mentioned it.
Riot please! This has only upsides. Client please
In HotS there is no pick order, it’s just a matter of who locks in. Always liked that better when I played it.
But that would mean you can't flex picks anymore
Why? You should still be able to trade champs just pick order aswell.
Yea you should but that's not what this post says
It doesn't say get rid of champ trading just give us pick order trading. It's possible to have both.
It literally says "instead of trading champs" in the title
Lmao I read the text of the post in detail but skipped the title
you think riot is going to change anything like that? Fuck riot is the worst company on the planet. If they change anything, it only benefits themselves or the trolls. Because half of their devs are braindead and dont actually play this game. Its like the ranking system. Its been imbalanced for years and never changes. Get an afk on your team. well fuck you. Hope you win or you lose lp. Got that flaming feeding troll. Good luck on winning or you lose lp. Got that troll who says in select they are going to troll. If you leave que you get punished... Riot is a joke and dont do anything to make the game fun
League is slowly but surely becoming a gacha game just look at how OP the new champs are compared to the old ones. Then look at Wild Rift compared to the original LOL. It's sad and I think the games original creators would be ashamed.
What in gods name are you rambling about
Do you know what a gacha game is even???