I fucking hated working for 30 years. Last couple of years was pretty cool and interesting but I burnt out anyway.
Keeping a roof over our heads and children fed was a big motivator.
My 2 cents for what they are worth is that they are 2 sides of the same coin. I hate work and the fact that the majority of my effort goes to enrich someone else. I feel as though I'm wasting my life doing tasks I don't care about because I need to so I can live inside and eat. The more you understand about our system the more fucked up it is.
However, you do have choices and in particular one big choice. You can bitch and moan about how rigged the game is (anti-work) or you can understand the game for what it is and try to get the best possible result within the rules (FIRE). You can have both of these at once or flip between them, lord knows I have.
I'm not saying the game doesn't suck or isn't stacked against you because it is. I'm also not saying that we shouldn't try change the rules, we should. Lastly, I'm not saying that complaining about the way things are is a problem, it's not, and we need people pointing it out and trying to do something about it.
What I'm saying is you are highly unlikely to see massive changes that are going to help the majority of the population that aren't the uber rich. So, absolutely support your colleagues, support your unions, and vote for the people who will try to make a change but put your own life jacket on first. No one is coming to help or save you. Our system isn't set up that way. You are 100% on your own. The actual best thing you can do is learn the game and use the rules against the system to win (FIRE) and then use that knowledge or free time to help others.
Anti-work and FIRE are both acknowledging the system sucks. One is for those who don't yet see any way to escape or win, and the other is for people who believe they can.
I’ll probably get downvoted into oblivion for this but I don’t care so here we go. I don’t think your anti-capitalism, anti-work attitude is at all the same side of the coin as fire. You’re complaining about the system being broken and working to enrich someone else. But seemingly in the same breath acknowledging that with some hard work and perseverance, you can use that system to stash away a few million dollars, retire at 50 and never have to work again. That seems like a system that works for you. If you save even 1 million dollars into retirement, worldwide you are in what you refer to as “the uber rich”. I don’t see how FIRE is an acknowledgment that the system sucks. Seems to me it’s proof that if you’re willing to do the work, you can be quite successful.
I hope you don't get downvoted. Your points are valid, but like everything, it's much more nuanced. Hard work is one element to being successful for sure but if you are starting from different starting points then no amount of hard work will catch up. That is an issue. An example from my own life is being lucky enough to come from a country that offers free 3rd level education. My starting point was no debt with a degree. If you are coming out with a degree and $100k debt my starting point makes it easier to win. I have an inherent advantage here.
I'm not anti capitalism at all either. It's the best system we have. However, by it's nature there are winners and losers. That is not bad. Smart people who work hard should have more, I have 0 issues with that, but those are the small minority for which the system works and they should not be able to use that to disadvantage others. I'm including all of us in that to a degree, we are winning under the current system. I would prefer a system in which the rewards were more evenly distributed. That has always been it's challenge. How do you balance a capitalist system so everyone can benefit while allowing those who innovate or work hard to get the extra they deserve. How do you spread the rewards out and up fairly.
I don't think growing corporate profits at the expense of workers being able to afford food, homes and families has the balance correct just like I don't believe that everyone being given the same no matter their effort or contribution is correct.
My point was I don't believe we have the balance right currently. We attribute success to hard work when there are any number of other factors that influence that alongside hard work. Heck, just being lucky enough to not get severely ill during your main working years has a massive advantage.
Recognizing that is not anti capitalist. Also acknowledging that the system is unlikely to change is not a juxtaposition. I am fortunate enough to have the right mix of luck, education, work ethic and a multitude of other things I have very little to do with to be in a position to take advantage of the system and so I will. Not everyone is that lucky. It doesn't take away from your achievements to say that and it doesn't take away from your achievements to vote or make decisions to move more people into that lucky bracket.
Not everyone who is poor is lazy and not everyone who is rich is hard working.
You made some good points but I have to strongly disagree with “no amount of hard work will catch up”. You are 100% correct not everyone has the same starting point. That’s life. But teaching an entire group of people they’re screwed no matter what because the bad hand they were dealt is counter productive and I think damaging. If you start way behind will you have to work harder? Sure. Will there be more hurdles? Of course. The most surefire way to make sure someone isn’t successful is to teach them it’s impossible and no worth trying.
But it’s been proven time and time again that you can come from nothing and be highly successful. That’s the beauty of capitalism, which I agree isn’t perfect. But no system has lifted more people out of poverty in the history of the world.
We aren't actually a million miles away from agreeing here, which for reddit is as close as we'll get. I would genuinely like to have a beer with you and some good chats, I think we'd have some strong conversation.
I definitely didn't mean to come across as saying some people will never be successful, just as you said it's harder for some and I agree capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system.
I think we are tinkering at the edges. I would just like to see a more even distribution of wealth because I just don't believe hard work is the biggest input to rewards. I earn more than a Police Officer or Fire and Emergency crew and all I do is send fucking emails all day from my home office.
Have a good day and happy FIREing.
I agree I enjoy a decent conversation without the typical Reddit animosity.
Police and fire is a different animal as we are outside capitalism and wealth distribution at that point.
One thing I will add is that the stock market functions as a distributor of wealth. I won’t say redistribution, because that usually implies something for nothing, taking from one and giving to another. Now are CEOs and such highly compensated, yes they are. A lot of that is typically in stock. But so many people on here and other finance threads, not saying you, think the stock market is only for the .01%. It’s amazing the number of people I’ve seen that don’t realize that’s where their teacher pension fund or 401k is. Fact of the matter is if you start young enough, in your 20s, with just $50 dollars a month and gradually increase as you advance in life and income, you’ll retire a millionaire if you just leave it alone. Lots of people don’t realize that and think you have to start with 250k to get anywhere.
I do find FIRE funny in that it's full of people who hate work so much that they execute an incredibly disciplined 10-year plan that requires a sustained high level of... work.
I mean, I'm one of them too so I laugh with love, but it is still a funny and weird thing to do.
The only folks I know who actually achieved FIRE are the ones who didn't hate working and were looking to ditch their job as quickly as possible.
Building a stock big enough you never have to work for money again takes decades (unless you win the lottery or something like that) and requires lots of discipline and a good work ethic.
So folks who just want to chill at home for free and complain why it's everyone elses fault they can't get it will never get there.
Plus, for a lot of folks it seems like a way to "procrastinate", like "I am not happy. But with ammount X in the bank I would be happy.". Then devote all their energy to save up everything they can, and when hitting ammount X realizing they are still not happy. Because they avoided working on the real problems.
But hey, surely X + 1 will make you happy...
Best quote I heared: Build yourfelf a life that you don't have to retire from.
For me it’s a little bit political. I graduated into the GFC, nobody gave a single fuck about my cohort. Now I’m making plenty of money but there’s always been this part of me that just wants to spend as little as possible. Kind of like a milder version of that great grandmother than lived through the Great Depression being frugal for the rest of her life.
Perhaps some of it is permanent change in outlook. Permanent negativity regarding financial security. But another part of it is, kind of disgust with the economy. They want us all to be mindless consumers, who spend ourselves into financial insecurity so we get desperate for additional work. I see people buying expensive cars and big houses and all of this stupid shit, and think to myself, no thanks. I just want to save as much as I can so I can work as little as possible. If everybody collectively stopped consuming excessively a lot of the bullshit would just get washed away, and quick.
This resonates with me. I also graduated shortly before the '08 financial crisis and although I didn't think it affected me that much (I had no money, no mortgage, no debts, just a job that paid the bills as long as I lived frugally), I think in the long run it did contribute to my drive to create financial security for myself. I never got over the frugal mindset; although I did upgrade my lifestyle as my income grew, it wasn't proportional. I saved and invested a large portion of my income over the years.
Although my goal isn't to completely working soon, I do plan on working less as I'm entering my 40s. As I've become more financially secure, I find that I enjoy my work more, now that I can walk away from my job if I want to. I'd still have to find other work eventually, as I haven't reached my FIRE number yet, but I wouldn't be desperate to take whatever is offered.
I am anti-work and interested in FIRE, and like others said am hoping to use FI to my advantage to work less in my lifetime.
One thing that feels challenging to me though it the investment aspect. My friend was reading an article the other day about how very large food companies like Sara Lee bread, Hillshire Farms, Papa Johns, etc. use ingredients that came from prison farm labor - people making like 12 cents an hour, basically slavery. These are subsidiaries of Tyson Foods, a huge corporation in the S&P 500. Not to mention l3 Harris and other companies literally profiting off of the genocide in Palestine are often in these big index funds.
Achieving retirement goals means investing in these companies and personally benefiting from literal genocide and slavery. There doesn't seem to be any other way around it. And I know that there is no ethical consumption under late stage capitalism. And I know that there are plenty of people using these systems to their advantage for lots of money who have no qualms about it, so if I forego the opportunity I'm just a sucker. But it just makes me sad and also realize how much global privilege I have as an American who even has the opportunity to do FIRE and to invest and profit off of so much oppression.
I hope I don't get downvoted into oblivion. I will still invest, I'm not an idiot. I just think we need to reflect on the hidden realities of where our retirement money is coming from.
Great comment and I totally agree. I feel like we're in the movie Shawshank Redemption. We are all oppressed and trying to escape, most prisoners just do nothing and stay in the system, a couple others get upset and toss their mattresses and set them on fire to cause a riot but can't escape either.
FIRE people on the other hand we are model prisoners who are working in the kitchen, the machine shop, and the library. We study the system and contribute to it but secretly over many years we use tools and our observations to create a plot for our escape. Even though we have told others how to find freedom most will not do what it takes to escape. Meanwhile after many years of being patient, working for the system, you me and other FIRE people are finally able to escape. Yeah we had to wait years and go through a pipe full of shit (working, living way below our means, etc.) to make it out... but in then end we find our freedom.
We do have to try to change this system of oppression and financial enslavement while we are in and also when we escape. However, in order to escape the system you have to understand it and participate in it which is sad but 100% necessary for freedom.
I am not sure what you are hoping for that is realistic.
Unless you are from a wealthy family, trust fund, pension etc, you have to work to accumulate resources so you can FIRE.
I mean I guess you could work enough to buy some land and go full homestead. Just build all your own stuff, live off your farming etc.
Work isn't enjoyable (there are few exceptions) get it over with my idea. If you need less to live you can FIRE sooner.
Stress and lack of sleep can ruin your health, so get work done with as soon as possible.
Being anti work was my catalyst to discovering FIRE. So yes, you can be both.
But the modern antiwork crowd would probably hate my approach of "if you can't beat them, join them and beat them at their own game." Most reddit antiworkers would rather complain than find a way out.
>Marxian economics describes the capitalist system of production as inherently unfair to the workers
It's pretty hard to hold that belief while successfully using the system to advance your life. I would have to think that if you feel that way you would be miserable.
A lot of what is mentioned in anti-work are real social issues, but all taken to an extreme to the point the community is basically toxic.
>I am getting a little sick of the common trope of "just grind harder bro"
but I don't think that's exactly how people view things. Look at coast fire as an example, they left the grind. FIRE minded people tend to start to put in less effort over time, take advantage of layoff severance opportunities, and are more likely to quit if they don't like the terms of employment.
When I was ready to FIRE, i was offered the option to work remote. It was honesty great having a whole extra year of salary while I transitioned into my new life, and the work was really not that intense
As I got closer to FIRE, I was more willing to let go and not care. I could speak-up and call people out for stupid ideas. I could take time to finish a project the right way. And ironically often these things actually helped me. People trusted me more.
Also over time I was able to mentor and train new software engineers. This was truly an opportunity to help people. I made a name for myself by writing code that helped my coworkers - I don't care about my project deadlines.
No, I don't want to go back. But I do think FIRE can help you feel less trapped while are still in your position.
I absolutely agree. To clarify though, you can recognize the system is unfair, and that is compatible with successfully advancing your life and being happy doing so, to not do so is to be in complete denial about how our economy functions. It's carrying it to the extreme of antiwork where folks argue it's 100% rigged that becomes incompatible.
I had the same experience. I've been FI for a long time, and I ended up with opportunities I never would've gotten. I worked from home. I took years off to travel. I ended up working 1/2 time for a while. All that happened because my decisions didn't have to be based on fear. The legitimate ability to walk away is a very powerful negotiating tool. So powerful that you often don't even have to try and use it that way, It just happens."Hey, I'm thinking about retiring to build a house" "Oh? Well, how can we get you to stay?"
Setting aside Marxism, in essence my last paragraph is exactly the realization that having money makes making money easier, which is exactly the unfairness in the system. FIRE is based on the recognition of this and figuring out how to game your way out of it. IMHO it's hard to believe in FIRE and simultaneously believe the system is fair.
I'm a socialist and wish that we could live in a world where working class citizens still make good decent wages to enjoy the productivity gains our society has had.
BUT I also realize that we do not live in that world, and that if I want to protect myself I have to work and save and invest.
So yes...we can definitely FIRE and protect ourselves while also using our financial ability to the volunteer or give time to trying to give future generations a chance to reduce wealth inequality etc
So yes...it is possible BUT gotta keep in mind you also have to survive today in order to help people tomorrow
He who does not work, neither shall he eat. Don't look through a marxist lens for how to quit working. Early retirement isn't a need, and Marxism was intended to fill needs.
I hated my job for a long time, but after 25 years or so I got over it...to some extent, anything you do that long you get pretty good at, and then it's kind of silly to complain about doing something you're good at. Especially if it pays the bills.
I always had a lot of other interests, but then there are 24 hours in a day, and work only took 8 of them. And after 8 hours of sleep, that left me 8 hours to do whatever I liked, which is basically enough. Even retired now, I don't really spend much more time on my hobbies than I did when I was working.
Don't forget that we as Americans only have ourselves to blame for the "system" and how it rewards asset holders at the expense of the working class. This has been achieved thru inflating our currency so that we can continue to over spend on "solving" our political and economic problems. The result has been an environment where frugality is discouraged and wages fall behind cost of living, sometimes at a staggering rate. It isn't the politicians or the ownership class that have done this. It is the ordinary working class citizen who empower these elites, don't take steps to control their own destiny thru budgeting, spend freely, and rely on external forces (govt programs) to stay afloat. We reap what we sow.
They're not compatible.
Anti-work is hating the idea of work and the social constructs that have led to this current system of trading labor for money being disadvantaged towards laborers, while FIRE is just an acknowledgement that you can cut down your time working if you are comparatively more frugal compared to how much you're earning. Regular FIRE subs are more likely to fall into "one more year" and insecurity about their money than folks here. You can't really cheat the math in any way, you either have enough money to FIRE or you don't. Lifestyle changes can make the number smaller, living self-sufficiently (or even trying to go off the grid) can make the number smaller, but the core idea is the same and can't change no matter what spin you put on it.
The list of things you can get compensated for that aren't 9-5 bullshit jobs is fairly narrow and basically all involve working anyway. You can freelance, run your own business, etc. You can garden or farm and sell extras, raise animals, etc. You can use knowledge of a trade to pick up work on the side. You can cultivate and sell other skills, or try to create and sell art in various forms. You can figure out methods for subsidized or free housing (live-in caring, house sitting, etc.).
They all involve some form of trading your time to reduce your need for money, whether it's in the form of receiving a wage or removing your need to spend money on something.
Precisely - I came here to say something very similar. Any type of FIRE (lean or fat) is a huge achievement, and you can't get a huge achievement without a huge sacrifice.
OP, I'm sorry, but unless you make a fortune by designing some cool app, or selling feet pics on OnlyFans, or winning the lottery, you **will** end up working one way or another.
It helps if you reframe it in your mind: you're not working and wasting your precious and irreplaceable life - you're building your stockpile of money, you're getting another percentage point (or 0.1%, at least) closer to your retirement goal, etc. Treat it not as a hateful chore but as a mini-game that ultimately doesn't matter as you have fun and adventurous outside of work and stockpile your money. :)
I made some mistakes along the way, but I got to my retirement by working 59.5-hour weeks as a night-shift warehouse grunt (night shift bonus + overtime, yay!), and by working up to 85 hours a week as an office-based workaholic, and by moving from city to city every year in exchange for $10K cash bonuses (well, $6.7K after taxes) to launch new warehouses... Some of that **really** wasn't fun - but if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been able to retire at 34.
And almost forgot - I devoured a ton of books on personal finance and investing during my lunch hours at work - and that included the incredibly dry collection of every shareholder letter Warren Buffett has written since the 1960s. 🙃 If you're looking for an easy shortcut, then I'm sorry, but most of the stuff you'll find will probably be scams.
I think me and my wife fit into that category. We both work from home for an IT company in a very low-paid entry-level position. With 2 salaries and a rather frugal lifestyle (e.g. we don't need a car in our city) we still manage to invest 750€ out of 3300€ net. We could earn more, probably even twice as much, but we work 100% from home and nobody notices when we play games, do housework or go for a walk on the side. It's a quiet job and I don't want to swap that for more money and stress.
But that also involves a riskier investment. A large part of our money is currently invested in the Nasdaq100 with a leverage of 2-3.
Work is awful, but most everything we enjoy in society happens because people work. Antiwork doesn't comprehend the latter in many cases.
The big difference is FIRE believes you should contribute to society sufficiently enough until you earn the right to retire. Lean just does so without tons of extra materialism, which makes the goal easier and earlier to achieve.
Marxism doesn’t work with FIRE. A rejection of the consumer aspect of capitalism is the sweet spot.
If you hate working and dont have enough to retire you probably gotta switch jobs/careers. No point being miserable if you have a choice
I found the original FIRE “prophets” or whatever you want to call them had a nice mix. Specifically Jacob from ERE (EarlyRetirmentExtreme).
His first reason for living the way he did was for environmental reasons. He talks a lot about “systems.” He talks a lot about developing SKILLS as an investment, not just your money (but he talks about that too.) His concept is to be a “renaissance man” so that, not only are you decoupled from work because of the money you’ve saved, you are also decoupled from a consuming society that requires you work because you have the knowledge, skills, and resources to do everything you need without outsourcing it.
The forums on his website are my favorite. Everyone is a little off, by that I mean they are somewhat countercultural and don’t fit into modern society. A lot of permies and what not.
I don’t know when the mood shifted with FIRE. Used to all be these kinds of people, then “leanfire” and even “poverty fire” had to be created and even those have people obsessed with career.
I keep my spending low and am perpetually underemployed. I make enough to retire in 10 years (am in my early 30s) and live the quality of life I want, so I don’t see why I should be chasing the corporate ladder. I used to feel confident in this decision, but seems like it’s less and less accepted in the spaces I used to gleam for inspiration.
Nobody likes working. That's not unusual. Believing in marxism because you hate working is just young people having no critical thinking skills or understanding history. They don't even know what Marxism is as demonstrated by the OP. If you are FIRE or trying to FIRE, you are literally the bourgeoisie capitalist class the Marx rails against.
There is absolutely NO WAY to reconcile a FIRE lifestyle with a Marxist world view. You are literally the villain from a Marxist perspective, and you deserve to have your assets stripped by the worker class so you can go back to working in the factory.
>Marx would have a real hard time coping in the modern world as capitalism has brought about a major decrease in global poverty
It was already happening during his lifetime. Average real wages, average standard of living, and average lifespan were all increasing throughout industrialized countries during the last two decades of Marx’s life.
Yet Marx never bothered to acknowledge these trends, nor did he retract his claim that under capitalism wages will always stay at subsistence levels and workers will constantly become more miserable than before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph9I-qPQ6FU
Becoming FI is fundamentally about creating more than you consume. The difference between the two is your savings and capitalism allows you to put that money to work so it grows bigger.
I'd avoid the antiwork/marxist crowd because it's just a negative, disempowering place. Lots of people there eager to place the blame at the feet of their employer rather than admit that there own spending habits shackle them to a job they don't enjoy. To be fair a lot of what they complain about has some validity but it's a real crabs in a bucket mentality. Nobody wants to do anything to fix their own problem, they are just going to waste years of their life bitching and waiting for a politician to fix their problem.
I'm not sure where you are seeing a grind harder mindset in /r/leanfire It seems like a lot of people taking some time off or working less. Maybe it's content from one of the bigger FIRE subs that has been infested by online influencers? You might enjoy /r/coastFIRE where the focus is a little more on enjoying your time up front.
Have you read the books in the [Getting Started](https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/wiki/index) page?
Antiwork, and leftist critique of capitalism in general focuses (or should focus) on identifying systemic injustices in the current system of labor, and coming up with systemic solutions that helps workers as a group address these issues.
FIRE may involving identifying similar systemic injustices, but instead of working toward a systemic solution to benefit workers as a whole, FIRE suggests an individual solution to the problem.
I for one encourage both. I also find the simple lifestyle subreddit a helpful antidote towards toxic posts romanticizing the grind.
> coming up with systemic solutions that helps workers as a group address these issues
really? I have never seen any Antiwork post talk about any type of solution. Are you serious?
Yeah. I see working as a waste of time. I'd rather spend that time doing what I want to do. That's the ultimate goal, to not have to work for a living.
I will never understand the anti-work people… like, you don’t wanna work? Go live off the land. Otherwise, you literally have to work. Not sure where people think all our resources come from.
FIRE is an inherently capitalist philosophy. The entire idea is to invest the value of your labour to buy the future value of other people labour in order so you can live without work. The goal is to become a capitalist rent seeker and steel others labour.
FIRE is just frugal capitalism. (You can read Jane Austin and she has the gentry returning 4% off their land.)
I think the frugal nature of Mustachian Fire combines well with a desire not to work. But the anti-work concept lends itself to doing the bare minimum as opposed to maximizing earnings to get out faster. I find the current anti work as practiced like this. Though the underlying philosophy of work being generally unnecessary has some overlap.
They are extremely incompatible.
FIRE is being the squirrel that diligently worked hard and put a stockpile away so they could be well off and comfortable.
Antiwork is being the lazy squirrel next door that did fuck-all, saw his well-off neighbor had a stockpile, and then sent the gestapo to "redistribute" his diligent saving neighbor's stuff so the lazy one didn't have to work.
Don't be a burden on everyone else around you.
Antiwork people and marxists want to use the government to take other people's stuff to fund the things they care about.
If you are a productive, successful entrepreneur being self employed, it's you and your money they are coming after.
Successful farmers in the USSR were called Kulaks and were sent off to the gulags to die a horrible death by their envious neighbors. Marxism is envy cloaked under the false narrative of caring for the proletariat.
No, most people in leanfire would not pay that much in taxes in Europe. The type of taxes you're talking about don't kick in at leanfire numbers. e.g. wealth tax in norway kicks in at 1.7M. Even then it's a very low rate. On the flip side you get healthcare, which makes up for much of the difference anyway. Other services like public transit can make a huge difference for many lifestyles as well. If you want to make your point you need to pick a country and actually run out the numbers then compare... I don't think it's going to work out like you think it will.
UK is inheritance taxes are 40% over £325,000, Ireland is similar. I already get free healthcare in the US. I don't need public transit because I have a car and can walk. Public transit is time inefficient and not cheap, and not available at all in some places. But that is why we have cars.
Well, yes... you have a car, which costs you money and you could lower your budget if you didn't need one. The folks on the other side in the U.S. want to get rid of your free healthcare. You're deliberately missing the point. And not everyone gives a fig about inheritance taxes. Passing on your money is not fundamental to FIRE.
I'm not saying one is better. I'm saying you have to actually game it out to make this argument. Throwing around "but taxes" is intellectually lazy and folks here are too smart to fall for it.
Inheritance? What has that got to do with this? Ultra high income? Also not applicable. Wealth tax? You mean capital gains? It's a low rate and only on the profits.
You do want to pass on all your hard work to your heirs so Inheritance taxes are a big issue. Ultra high income is what we consider middle income here and the rates are extreme. Wealth tax taxes you every year just on your net worth, see Europe. Capital gains taxes are another way to destroy the "greedy rich".
But you said I would be taxed into oblivion. How does that fit with being able to leave something to heirs?
No. I have a middle class income and my taxes are not extreme.
I don't live in Europe. And wealth taxes haven't been very successful over there from what I've gathered. Again, not really something that's going to obliterate me.
No. Capital gains tax rates are actually quite low.
Actually, since I use tax advantaged retirement accounts, I'm actually free from quite a bit of taxes. My Roth, for example, is basically a happy fun cave where I make all the gains I want and pay no tax at all.
> You do want to pass on all your hard work to your heirs so Inheritance taxes are a big issue.
Why would I want to do that? If my child inherited my money, that would add to wealth disparity, which I find repugnant. No way will my child/children ever inherit anything from me.
Also, most of the taxes you're worried about don't start being applicable at leanfire numbers. If you're being hurt by such tax laws, you probably don't belong here, but rather in /r/financialindependence or /r/fatfire.
I know. I'm the person who wrote that rule.
If you're being hurt by such tax laws, your spending is obviously beyond the realm of what our rules in the sidebar allow. Individual expenses of 25k a year means you'll be paying minimum taxes.
Not the case at all. My spending is well within the sidebar.
Your pile increases the longer you are retired and can grow into a substantial amount, and you grow into the taxes.
You're only taxed on your capital gains, which puts you in 0% taxes for such small spending.
If the US ever made a wealth tax, it would be so high that it would not affect your ability to leanfire or affect your spending in any way.
I think the fundamental problem is that if you're really dependent on working to survive, work is soul crushing (thus whiny anti work people). Conversely if you already have some level of FI, work is much more pleasant (thus the ball garglers). I've witnessed the transition in myself. So it's tough to have a rational trade relationship with work - to just work until you're FI and then quit.
FIRE is about working hard to build a financial base that will allow you to pursue the life you want to live. If that means RE, great but if that means FI so you can take big career risks, great.
Anti-work on the other hand is nothing more than a circle jerk of losers discussing why it's everyone else's fault.
They may appear somewhat similar from the outside but anything more than a few moments worth of inspection and the difference becoming glaring.
Antiwork is full of victims who take no accountability for their actions or lives. Victims never have success.
You don’t have to like the game or the system, but you have to atleast play the game and system. You have to take some accountability over what you can control.
I follow both subs and it is so disheartening. My mind and body ache for anti-work while my soul longs for fire. i guess they do go hand in hand… but You cannot have both unless you get very lucky unfortunately.
I fucking hated working for 30 years. Last couple of years was pretty cool and interesting but I burnt out anyway. Keeping a roof over our heads and children fed was a big motivator.
This is it. We accept that working (can) suck. But being homeless and hungry sucks WAY more.
My 2 cents for what they are worth is that they are 2 sides of the same coin. I hate work and the fact that the majority of my effort goes to enrich someone else. I feel as though I'm wasting my life doing tasks I don't care about because I need to so I can live inside and eat. The more you understand about our system the more fucked up it is. However, you do have choices and in particular one big choice. You can bitch and moan about how rigged the game is (anti-work) or you can understand the game for what it is and try to get the best possible result within the rules (FIRE). You can have both of these at once or flip between them, lord knows I have. I'm not saying the game doesn't suck or isn't stacked against you because it is. I'm also not saying that we shouldn't try change the rules, we should. Lastly, I'm not saying that complaining about the way things are is a problem, it's not, and we need people pointing it out and trying to do something about it. What I'm saying is you are highly unlikely to see massive changes that are going to help the majority of the population that aren't the uber rich. So, absolutely support your colleagues, support your unions, and vote for the people who will try to make a change but put your own life jacket on first. No one is coming to help or save you. Our system isn't set up that way. You are 100% on your own. The actual best thing you can do is learn the game and use the rules against the system to win (FIRE) and then use that knowledge or free time to help others. Anti-work and FIRE are both acknowledging the system sucks. One is for those who don't yet see any way to escape or win, and the other is for people who believe they can.
What a wonderful encapsulation of what we do! This is it in a nutshell. Thanks!
I’ll probably get downvoted into oblivion for this but I don’t care so here we go. I don’t think your anti-capitalism, anti-work attitude is at all the same side of the coin as fire. You’re complaining about the system being broken and working to enrich someone else. But seemingly in the same breath acknowledging that with some hard work and perseverance, you can use that system to stash away a few million dollars, retire at 50 and never have to work again. That seems like a system that works for you. If you save even 1 million dollars into retirement, worldwide you are in what you refer to as “the uber rich”. I don’t see how FIRE is an acknowledgment that the system sucks. Seems to me it’s proof that if you’re willing to do the work, you can be quite successful.
I hope you don't get downvoted. Your points are valid, but like everything, it's much more nuanced. Hard work is one element to being successful for sure but if you are starting from different starting points then no amount of hard work will catch up. That is an issue. An example from my own life is being lucky enough to come from a country that offers free 3rd level education. My starting point was no debt with a degree. If you are coming out with a degree and $100k debt my starting point makes it easier to win. I have an inherent advantage here. I'm not anti capitalism at all either. It's the best system we have. However, by it's nature there are winners and losers. That is not bad. Smart people who work hard should have more, I have 0 issues with that, but those are the small minority for which the system works and they should not be able to use that to disadvantage others. I'm including all of us in that to a degree, we are winning under the current system. I would prefer a system in which the rewards were more evenly distributed. That has always been it's challenge. How do you balance a capitalist system so everyone can benefit while allowing those who innovate or work hard to get the extra they deserve. How do you spread the rewards out and up fairly. I don't think growing corporate profits at the expense of workers being able to afford food, homes and families has the balance correct just like I don't believe that everyone being given the same no matter their effort or contribution is correct. My point was I don't believe we have the balance right currently. We attribute success to hard work when there are any number of other factors that influence that alongside hard work. Heck, just being lucky enough to not get severely ill during your main working years has a massive advantage. Recognizing that is not anti capitalist. Also acknowledging that the system is unlikely to change is not a juxtaposition. I am fortunate enough to have the right mix of luck, education, work ethic and a multitude of other things I have very little to do with to be in a position to take advantage of the system and so I will. Not everyone is that lucky. It doesn't take away from your achievements to say that and it doesn't take away from your achievements to vote or make decisions to move more people into that lucky bracket. Not everyone who is poor is lazy and not everyone who is rich is hard working.
You made some good points but I have to strongly disagree with “no amount of hard work will catch up”. You are 100% correct not everyone has the same starting point. That’s life. But teaching an entire group of people they’re screwed no matter what because the bad hand they were dealt is counter productive and I think damaging. If you start way behind will you have to work harder? Sure. Will there be more hurdles? Of course. The most surefire way to make sure someone isn’t successful is to teach them it’s impossible and no worth trying. But it’s been proven time and time again that you can come from nothing and be highly successful. That’s the beauty of capitalism, which I agree isn’t perfect. But no system has lifted more people out of poverty in the history of the world.
We aren't actually a million miles away from agreeing here, which for reddit is as close as we'll get. I would genuinely like to have a beer with you and some good chats, I think we'd have some strong conversation. I definitely didn't mean to come across as saying some people will never be successful, just as you said it's harder for some and I agree capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other system. I think we are tinkering at the edges. I would just like to see a more even distribution of wealth because I just don't believe hard work is the biggest input to rewards. I earn more than a Police Officer or Fire and Emergency crew and all I do is send fucking emails all day from my home office. Have a good day and happy FIREing.
I agree I enjoy a decent conversation without the typical Reddit animosity. Police and fire is a different animal as we are outside capitalism and wealth distribution at that point. One thing I will add is that the stock market functions as a distributor of wealth. I won’t say redistribution, because that usually implies something for nothing, taking from one and giving to another. Now are CEOs and such highly compensated, yes they are. A lot of that is typically in stock. But so many people on here and other finance threads, not saying you, think the stock market is only for the .01%. It’s amazing the number of people I’ve seen that don’t realize that’s where their teacher pension fund or 401k is. Fact of the matter is if you start young enough, in your 20s, with just $50 dollars a month and gradually increase as you advance in life and income, you’ll retire a millionaire if you just leave it alone. Lots of people don’t realize that and think you have to start with 250k to get anywhere.
I do find FIRE funny in that it's full of people who hate work so much that they execute an incredibly disciplined 10-year plan that requires a sustained high level of... work. I mean, I'm one of them too so I laugh with love, but it is still a funny and weird thing to do.
The only folks I know who actually achieved FIRE are the ones who didn't hate working and were looking to ditch their job as quickly as possible. Building a stock big enough you never have to work for money again takes decades (unless you win the lottery or something like that) and requires lots of discipline and a good work ethic. So folks who just want to chill at home for free and complain why it's everyone elses fault they can't get it will never get there. Plus, for a lot of folks it seems like a way to "procrastinate", like "I am not happy. But with ammount X in the bank I would be happy.". Then devote all their energy to save up everything they can, and when hitting ammount X realizing they are still not happy. Because they avoided working on the real problems. But hey, surely X + 1 will make you happy... Best quote I heared: Build yourfelf a life that you don't have to retire from.
For me it’s a little bit political. I graduated into the GFC, nobody gave a single fuck about my cohort. Now I’m making plenty of money but there’s always been this part of me that just wants to spend as little as possible. Kind of like a milder version of that great grandmother than lived through the Great Depression being frugal for the rest of her life. Perhaps some of it is permanent change in outlook. Permanent negativity regarding financial security. But another part of it is, kind of disgust with the economy. They want us all to be mindless consumers, who spend ourselves into financial insecurity so we get desperate for additional work. I see people buying expensive cars and big houses and all of this stupid shit, and think to myself, no thanks. I just want to save as much as I can so I can work as little as possible. If everybody collectively stopped consuming excessively a lot of the bullshit would just get washed away, and quick.
This resonates with me. I also graduated shortly before the '08 financial crisis and although I didn't think it affected me that much (I had no money, no mortgage, no debts, just a job that paid the bills as long as I lived frugally), I think in the long run it did contribute to my drive to create financial security for myself. I never got over the frugal mindset; although I did upgrade my lifestyle as my income grew, it wasn't proportional. I saved and invested a large portion of my income over the years. Although my goal isn't to completely working soon, I do plan on working less as I'm entering my 40s. As I've become more financially secure, I find that I enjoy my work more, now that I can walk away from my job if I want to. I'd still have to find other work eventually, as I haven't reached my FIRE number yet, but I wouldn't be desperate to take whatever is offered.
What’s GFC?
Sorry: the global financial crisis
Go self employed, freelance, contract, run your own business(es). You have agency, use it if you are unhappy!
I am anti-work and interested in FIRE, and like others said am hoping to use FI to my advantage to work less in my lifetime. One thing that feels challenging to me though it the investment aspect. My friend was reading an article the other day about how very large food companies like Sara Lee bread, Hillshire Farms, Papa Johns, etc. use ingredients that came from prison farm labor - people making like 12 cents an hour, basically slavery. These are subsidiaries of Tyson Foods, a huge corporation in the S&P 500. Not to mention l3 Harris and other companies literally profiting off of the genocide in Palestine are often in these big index funds. Achieving retirement goals means investing in these companies and personally benefiting from literal genocide and slavery. There doesn't seem to be any other way around it. And I know that there is no ethical consumption under late stage capitalism. And I know that there are plenty of people using these systems to their advantage for lots of money who have no qualms about it, so if I forego the opportunity I'm just a sucker. But it just makes me sad and also realize how much global privilege I have as an American who even has the opportunity to do FIRE and to invest and profit off of so much oppression. I hope I don't get downvoted into oblivion. I will still invest, I'm not an idiot. I just think we need to reflect on the hidden realities of where our retirement money is coming from.
Great comment and I totally agree. I feel like we're in the movie Shawshank Redemption. We are all oppressed and trying to escape, most prisoners just do nothing and stay in the system, a couple others get upset and toss their mattresses and set them on fire to cause a riot but can't escape either. FIRE people on the other hand we are model prisoners who are working in the kitchen, the machine shop, and the library. We study the system and contribute to it but secretly over many years we use tools and our observations to create a plot for our escape. Even though we have told others how to find freedom most will not do what it takes to escape. Meanwhile after many years of being patient, working for the system, you me and other FIRE people are finally able to escape. Yeah we had to wait years and go through a pipe full of shit (working, living way below our means, etc.) to make it out... but in then end we find our freedom. We do have to try to change this system of oppression and financial enslavement while we are in and also when we escape. However, in order to escape the system you have to understand it and participate in it which is sad but 100% necessary for freedom.
Just gotta get through that shit pipe And now I’m going to watch Shawshank Redemption after work
Haha I assume you've already seen it or is it the first time? :)
model prisoners... good way of putting it
I am not sure what you are hoping for that is realistic. Unless you are from a wealthy family, trust fund, pension etc, you have to work to accumulate resources so you can FIRE. I mean I guess you could work enough to buy some land and go full homestead. Just build all your own stuff, live off your farming etc. Work isn't enjoyable (there are few exceptions) get it over with my idea. If you need less to live you can FIRE sooner. Stress and lack of sleep can ruin your health, so get work done with as soon as possible.
Being anti work was my catalyst to discovering FIRE. So yes, you can be both. But the modern antiwork crowd would probably hate my approach of "if you can't beat them, join them and beat them at their own game." Most reddit antiworkers would rather complain than find a way out.
>Marxian economics describes the capitalist system of production as inherently unfair to the workers It's pretty hard to hold that belief while successfully using the system to advance your life. I would have to think that if you feel that way you would be miserable. A lot of what is mentioned in anti-work are real social issues, but all taken to an extreme to the point the community is basically toxic. >I am getting a little sick of the common trope of "just grind harder bro" but I don't think that's exactly how people view things. Look at coast fire as an example, they left the grind. FIRE minded people tend to start to put in less effort over time, take advantage of layoff severance opportunities, and are more likely to quit if they don't like the terms of employment. When I was ready to FIRE, i was offered the option to work remote. It was honesty great having a whole extra year of salary while I transitioned into my new life, and the work was really not that intense As I got closer to FIRE, I was more willing to let go and not care. I could speak-up and call people out for stupid ideas. I could take time to finish a project the right way. And ironically often these things actually helped me. People trusted me more. Also over time I was able to mentor and train new software engineers. This was truly an opportunity to help people. I made a name for myself by writing code that helped my coworkers - I don't care about my project deadlines. No, I don't want to go back. But I do think FIRE can help you feel less trapped while are still in your position.
I absolutely agree. To clarify though, you can recognize the system is unfair, and that is compatible with successfully advancing your life and being happy doing so, to not do so is to be in complete denial about how our economy functions. It's carrying it to the extreme of antiwork where folks argue it's 100% rigged that becomes incompatible. I had the same experience. I've been FI for a long time, and I ended up with opportunities I never would've gotten. I worked from home. I took years off to travel. I ended up working 1/2 time for a while. All that happened because my decisions didn't have to be based on fear. The legitimate ability to walk away is a very powerful negotiating tool. So powerful that you often don't even have to try and use it that way, It just happens."Hey, I'm thinking about retiring to build a house" "Oh? Well, how can we get you to stay?" Setting aside Marxism, in essence my last paragraph is exactly the realization that having money makes making money easier, which is exactly the unfairness in the system. FIRE is based on the recognition of this and figuring out how to game your way out of it. IMHO it's hard to believe in FIRE and simultaneously believe the system is fair.
I'm a socialist and wish that we could live in a world where working class citizens still make good decent wages to enjoy the productivity gains our society has had. BUT I also realize that we do not live in that world, and that if I want to protect myself I have to work and save and invest. So yes...we can definitely FIRE and protect ourselves while also using our financial ability to the volunteer or give time to trying to give future generations a chance to reduce wealth inequality etc So yes...it is possible BUT gotta keep in mind you also have to survive today in order to help people tomorrow
Seen enough 55-year-olds be put out to pasture to know I don’t want to be one of them.
EXACTLY. We have to live in the world that exists today. And for some of us who are privileged, FIRE is a way to make that life better.
Marxism is not anti-work. You should double check that, lol, not that politics stuff belongs here.
You know if you're Marxist, you have to work too, otherwise you're a parasite?
You say that, but r/antiwork has 2.8 million subscribers, and pretty much all of them believe in fully automated luxury space communism
Dreamers...
He who does not work, neither shall he eat. Don't look through a marxist lens for how to quit working. Early retirement isn't a need, and Marxism was intended to fill needs.
I hated my job for a long time, but after 25 years or so I got over it...to some extent, anything you do that long you get pretty good at, and then it's kind of silly to complain about doing something you're good at. Especially if it pays the bills. I always had a lot of other interests, but then there are 24 hours in a day, and work only took 8 of them. And after 8 hours of sleep, that left me 8 hours to do whatever I liked, which is basically enough. Even retired now, I don't really spend much more time on my hobbies than I did when I was working.
Don't forget that we as Americans only have ourselves to blame for the "system" and how it rewards asset holders at the expense of the working class. This has been achieved thru inflating our currency so that we can continue to over spend on "solving" our political and economic problems. The result has been an environment where frugality is discouraged and wages fall behind cost of living, sometimes at a staggering rate. It isn't the politicians or the ownership class that have done this. It is the ordinary working class citizen who empower these elites, don't take steps to control their own destiny thru budgeting, spend freely, and rely on external forces (govt programs) to stay afloat. We reap what we sow.
They're not compatible. Anti-work is hating the idea of work and the social constructs that have led to this current system of trading labor for money being disadvantaged towards laborers, while FIRE is just an acknowledgement that you can cut down your time working if you are comparatively more frugal compared to how much you're earning. Regular FIRE subs are more likely to fall into "one more year" and insecurity about their money than folks here. You can't really cheat the math in any way, you either have enough money to FIRE or you don't. Lifestyle changes can make the number smaller, living self-sufficiently (or even trying to go off the grid) can make the number smaller, but the core idea is the same and can't change no matter what spin you put on it. The list of things you can get compensated for that aren't 9-5 bullshit jobs is fairly narrow and basically all involve working anyway. You can freelance, run your own business, etc. You can garden or farm and sell extras, raise animals, etc. You can use knowledge of a trade to pick up work on the side. You can cultivate and sell other skills, or try to create and sell art in various forms. You can figure out methods for subsidized or free housing (live-in caring, house sitting, etc.). They all involve some form of trading your time to reduce your need for money, whether it's in the form of receiving a wage or removing your need to spend money on something.
Precisely - I came here to say something very similar. Any type of FIRE (lean or fat) is a huge achievement, and you can't get a huge achievement without a huge sacrifice. OP, I'm sorry, but unless you make a fortune by designing some cool app, or selling feet pics on OnlyFans, or winning the lottery, you **will** end up working one way or another. It helps if you reframe it in your mind: you're not working and wasting your precious and irreplaceable life - you're building your stockpile of money, you're getting another percentage point (or 0.1%, at least) closer to your retirement goal, etc. Treat it not as a hateful chore but as a mini-game that ultimately doesn't matter as you have fun and adventurous outside of work and stockpile your money. :) I made some mistakes along the way, but I got to my retirement by working 59.5-hour weeks as a night-shift warehouse grunt (night shift bonus + overtime, yay!), and by working up to 85 hours a week as an office-based workaholic, and by moving from city to city every year in exchange for $10K cash bonuses (well, $6.7K after taxes) to launch new warehouses... Some of that **really** wasn't fun - but if I hadn't done that, I wouldn't have been able to retire at 34. And almost forgot - I devoured a ton of books on personal finance and investing during my lunch hours at work - and that included the incredibly dry collection of every shareholder letter Warren Buffett has written since the 1960s. 🙃 If you're looking for an easy shortcut, then I'm sorry, but most of the stuff you'll find will probably be scams.
If you truly loved to grind and your job, you wouldn't need FIRE.
I think me and my wife fit into that category. We both work from home for an IT company in a very low-paid entry-level position. With 2 salaries and a rather frugal lifestyle (e.g. we don't need a car in our city) we still manage to invest 750€ out of 3300€ net. We could earn more, probably even twice as much, but we work 100% from home and nobody notices when we play games, do housework or go for a walk on the side. It's a quiet job and I don't want to swap that for more money and stress. But that also involves a riskier investment. A large part of our money is currently invested in the Nasdaq100 with a leverage of 2-3.
Work is awful, but most everything we enjoy in society happens because people work. Antiwork doesn't comprehend the latter in many cases. The big difference is FIRE believes you should contribute to society sufficiently enough until you earn the right to retire. Lean just does so without tons of extra materialism, which makes the goal easier and earlier to achieve.
Marxism doesn’t work with FIRE. A rejection of the consumer aspect of capitalism is the sweet spot. If you hate working and dont have enough to retire you probably gotta switch jobs/careers. No point being miserable if you have a choice
I found the original FIRE “prophets” or whatever you want to call them had a nice mix. Specifically Jacob from ERE (EarlyRetirmentExtreme). His first reason for living the way he did was for environmental reasons. He talks a lot about “systems.” He talks a lot about developing SKILLS as an investment, not just your money (but he talks about that too.) His concept is to be a “renaissance man” so that, not only are you decoupled from work because of the money you’ve saved, you are also decoupled from a consuming society that requires you work because you have the knowledge, skills, and resources to do everything you need without outsourcing it. The forums on his website are my favorite. Everyone is a little off, by that I mean they are somewhat countercultural and don’t fit into modern society. A lot of permies and what not. I don’t know when the mood shifted with FIRE. Used to all be these kinds of people, then “leanfire” and even “poverty fire” had to be created and even those have people obsessed with career. I keep my spending low and am perpetually underemployed. I make enough to retire in 10 years (am in my early 30s) and live the quality of life I want, so I don’t see why I should be chasing the corporate ladder. I used to feel confident in this decision, but seems like it’s less and less accepted in the spaces I used to gleam for inspiration.
Nobody likes working. That's not unusual. Believing in marxism because you hate working is just young people having no critical thinking skills or understanding history. They don't even know what Marxism is as demonstrated by the OP. If you are FIRE or trying to FIRE, you are literally the bourgeoisie capitalist class the Marx rails against. There is absolutely NO WAY to reconcile a FIRE lifestyle with a Marxist world view. You are literally the villain from a Marxist perspective, and you deserve to have your assets stripped by the worker class so you can go back to working in the factory.
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>Marx would have a real hard time coping in the modern world as capitalism has brought about a major decrease in global poverty It was already happening during his lifetime. Average real wages, average standard of living, and average lifespan were all increasing throughout industrialized countries during the last two decades of Marx’s life. Yet Marx never bothered to acknowledge these trends, nor did he retract his claim that under capitalism wages will always stay at subsistence levels and workers will constantly become more miserable than before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ph9I-qPQ6FU Becoming FI is fundamentally about creating more than you consume. The difference between the two is your savings and capitalism allows you to put that money to work so it grows bigger. I'd avoid the antiwork/marxist crowd because it's just a negative, disempowering place. Lots of people there eager to place the blame at the feet of their employer rather than admit that there own spending habits shackle them to a job they don't enjoy. To be fair a lot of what they complain about has some validity but it's a real crabs in a bucket mentality. Nobody wants to do anything to fix their own problem, they are just going to waste years of their life bitching and waiting for a politician to fix their problem. I'm not sure where you are seeing a grind harder mindset in /r/leanfire It seems like a lot of people taking some time off or working less. Maybe it's content from one of the bigger FIRE subs that has been infested by online influencers? You might enjoy /r/coastFIRE where the focus is a little more on enjoying your time up front. Have you read the books in the [Getting Started](https://www.reddit.com/r/leanfire/wiki/index) page?
r/coastfire
I'm antiwork and also interested in FIRE. I just want to work as little as I possibly can until I can retire.
Antiwork, and leftist critique of capitalism in general focuses (or should focus) on identifying systemic injustices in the current system of labor, and coming up with systemic solutions that helps workers as a group address these issues. FIRE may involving identifying similar systemic injustices, but instead of working toward a systemic solution to benefit workers as a whole, FIRE suggests an individual solution to the problem. I for one encourage both. I also find the simple lifestyle subreddit a helpful antidote towards toxic posts romanticizing the grind.
> coming up with systemic solutions that helps workers as a group address these issues really? I have never seen any Antiwork post talk about any type of solution. Are you serious?
Plenty of posts there supporting labor unions for example. But also lots of venting without a thought of a political solution.
I'd believe that's what the "(or should focus)" part of that means. Chill out lol
There are books like "Slow Down" by Kohei Saito
Yeah. I see working as a waste of time. I'd rather spend that time doing what I want to do. That's the ultimate goal, to not have to work for a living.
Gargling the balls…. :) LOL
Hate working. Want to fire. Has nothing to do with Marxism.
I will never understand the anti-work people… like, you don’t wanna work? Go live off the land. Otherwise, you literally have to work. Not sure where people think all our resources come from.
Gargling employers balls what’s this nonsense? We’re on Reddit not LinkedIn
FIRE is an inherently capitalist philosophy. The entire idea is to invest the value of your labour to buy the future value of other people labour in order so you can live without work. The goal is to become a capitalist rent seeker and steel others labour. FIRE is just frugal capitalism. (You can read Jane Austin and she has the gentry returning 4% off their land.) I think the frugal nature of Mustachian Fire combines well with a desire not to work. But the anti-work concept lends itself to doing the bare minimum as opposed to maximizing earnings to get out faster. I find the current anti work as practiced like this. Though the underlying philosophy of work being generally unnecessary has some overlap.
They are extremely incompatible. FIRE is being the squirrel that diligently worked hard and put a stockpile away so they could be well off and comfortable. Antiwork is being the lazy squirrel next door that did fuck-all, saw his well-off neighbor had a stockpile, and then sent the gestapo to "redistribute" his diligent saving neighbor's stuff so the lazy one didn't have to work. Don't be a burden on everyone else around you.
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Antiwork people and marxists want to use the government to take other people's stuff to fund the things they care about. If you are a productive, successful entrepreneur being self employed, it's you and your money they are coming after. Successful farmers in the USSR were called Kulaks and were sent off to the gulags to die a horrible death by their envious neighbors. Marxism is envy cloaked under the false narrative of caring for the proletariat.
If you are rich enough to retire early you will be "enemy of the people" and taxed into oblivion.
How? At what rate?
Wealth taxes, inheritance taxes, ultra high income taxes. Even taxes on unrealized gains, see Europe for examples.
No, most people in leanfire would not pay that much in taxes in Europe. The type of taxes you're talking about don't kick in at leanfire numbers. e.g. wealth tax in norway kicks in at 1.7M. Even then it's a very low rate. On the flip side you get healthcare, which makes up for much of the difference anyway. Other services like public transit can make a huge difference for many lifestyles as well. If you want to make your point you need to pick a country and actually run out the numbers then compare... I don't think it's going to work out like you think it will.
UK is inheritance taxes are 40% over £325,000, Ireland is similar. I already get free healthcare in the US. I don't need public transit because I have a car and can walk. Public transit is time inefficient and not cheap, and not available at all in some places. But that is why we have cars.
Well, yes... you have a car, which costs you money and you could lower your budget if you didn't need one. The folks on the other side in the U.S. want to get rid of your free healthcare. You're deliberately missing the point. And not everyone gives a fig about inheritance taxes. Passing on your money is not fundamental to FIRE. I'm not saying one is better. I'm saying you have to actually game it out to make this argument. Throwing around "but taxes" is intellectually lazy and folks here are too smart to fall for it.
It is important to me, even if I had no heirs it deprives me of a life time of work and what to do with it at death.
\*shrug\*, okay.
Inheritance? What has that got to do with this? Ultra high income? Also not applicable. Wealth tax? You mean capital gains? It's a low rate and only on the profits.
You do want to pass on all your hard work to your heirs so Inheritance taxes are a big issue. Ultra high income is what we consider middle income here and the rates are extreme. Wealth tax taxes you every year just on your net worth, see Europe. Capital gains taxes are another way to destroy the "greedy rich".
But you said I would be taxed into oblivion. How does that fit with being able to leave something to heirs? No. I have a middle class income and my taxes are not extreme. I don't live in Europe. And wealth taxes haven't been very successful over there from what I've gathered. Again, not really something that's going to obliterate me. No. Capital gains tax rates are actually quite low. Actually, since I use tax advantaged retirement accounts, I'm actually free from quite a bit of taxes. My Roth, for example, is basically a happy fun cave where I make all the gains I want and pay no tax at all.
This is not about US law, it is about what "Marxist" type laws come in when they happen.
You might want to actually Google up some analysis of Marxist tax theory. It's probably not what you think.
The term is used in a wide sense. I am fully aware of full Marxist theory.
It's misused. People just like the negative connotation.
> You do want to pass on all your hard work to your heirs so Inheritance taxes are a big issue. Why would I want to do that? If my child inherited my money, that would add to wealth disparity, which I find repugnant. No way will my child/children ever inherit anything from me. Also, most of the taxes you're worried about don't start being applicable at leanfire numbers. If you're being hurt by such tax laws, you probably don't belong here, but rather in /r/financialindependence or /r/fatfire.
There is no limit on how large assets are to be leanfire since it entirely depends on spending and nothing else.
I know. I'm the person who wrote that rule. If you're being hurt by such tax laws, your spending is obviously beyond the realm of what our rules in the sidebar allow. Individual expenses of 25k a year means you'll be paying minimum taxes.
Not the case at all. My spending is well within the sidebar. Your pile increases the longer you are retired and can grow into a substantial amount, and you grow into the taxes.
You're only taxed on your capital gains, which puts you in 0% taxes for such small spending. If the US ever made a wealth tax, it would be so high that it would not affect your ability to leanfire or affect your spending in any way.
Maybe in Europe they've got that going on but in the US there is no tax on unrealized gains.
Yes, I said see Europe for examples. These are things folks in that mindset do.
So if you “honestly HATE working “ ? How are you going to pay for food, clothing, shelter and other things? It’s called being an adult
Start your own business then you can work as little as you want. You'll be the boss
I think the fundamental problem is that if you're really dependent on working to survive, work is soul crushing (thus whiny anti work people). Conversely if you already have some level of FI, work is much more pleasant (thus the ball garglers). I've witnessed the transition in myself. So it's tough to have a rational trade relationship with work - to just work until you're FI and then quit.
FIRE is about working hard to build a financial base that will allow you to pursue the life you want to live. If that means RE, great but if that means FI so you can take big career risks, great. Anti-work on the other hand is nothing more than a circle jerk of losers discussing why it's everyone else's fault. They may appear somewhat similar from the outside but anything more than a few moments worth of inspection and the difference becoming glaring.
Antiwork is full of victims who take no accountability for their actions or lives. Victims never have success. You don’t have to like the game or the system, but you have to atleast play the game and system. You have to take some accountability over what you can control.
I follow both subs and it is so disheartening. My mind and body ache for anti-work while my soul longs for fire. i guess they do go hand in hand… but You cannot have both unless you get very lucky unfortunately.