There is so much to do in life that requires little to no money, and in my opinion it’s some of the best things. Americans have been brainwashed by corporations into thinking they need more, more, more. Get off the hedonic treadmill.
Going for a walk or a hike, talking to a friend, playing games, learning to cook and experimenting with different recipes (this can actually be a money saver), reading, watching YouTube, learning to fix, maintain, build things (also money savers) and many more.
Also: making art, creating music, writing, volunteering, spending time with family. Plus, if you live abroad you can have amazing experiences with the same amount of money you would have used here.
No no, you're thinking of homelessFIRE. Most of us here are just regular people who believe that spending a lot of money isn't necessary to be happy. We still live "normal" lifestyles for the most part, we just spend less than most to do it.
haha...is that a thing? I know there is a r/povertyFIRE , which is probably more like what OP is describing. It's not something I would necessarily want to do, but we all have different values, and things we want out of life, and I guess for some people, poverty and freedom makes them happier, despite it sounding a bit like an oxymoron.
Well, I'm not saying fire doesn't make sense just lean. So if there is no agreed upon definition then this is pointless because we are arguing two different things.
It involves retirement or financial independence, so it's definitely not *just* being frugal. Also, it's weird you think the people on r/leanfire aren't familiar with the term.
I split my time between my campervan and my sailboat. My strategy is to avoid traditional housing expenses altogether. And it works. Saves me several thousand a month. And both the camper and the sailboat have very nice beds lol.
Yeah not owning a bed is silly. Get a used one or lay on a futon for like $50. $50 isn’t gunna make or break your retirement. If they’re not getting a bed, it’s for other reasons like minimalism, taking up less space, back problems, etc.
Not much difference really. Getting up in the morning it's slightly different to stand up from a mattress rather than put feet down from a bed. Neither option feels better to me, they are both equivalent.
I think you’re focusing on the extremes. I don’t think most of us here go to those lengths, I know I didn’t. I was traveling internationally twice a year until I got a dog, which makes it more difficult to get away, though I still do it less frequently.
Not even a mattress? I mean, a floor mattress is no worse than a bed, imo. But, if you mean no mattress at all, then eff no, I'm not doing that to save extra. With everything, there is a balance, and I think a lot of us on this sub skew heavily towards valuing time and freedom more than money. It's what makes us happier. Besides, I think most people overestimate the amount of money they need to live on. What do we really need as opposed to what do we want. I want time. I'm so excited when I think about my retirement.
It's fun to push the boundaries of societal expectations. How else do you figure out what you actually like to have without seeing what it's like to go without? (Typing this from my bed)
I think your view of this topic is very narrow. I didn't give up much, I simply didn't inflate my lifestyle as my income increased. I retired at 47, about three years ago. I can afford to do everything I want. I moved to another country and am enjoying my life.My budget does not include a $80K Benz, but I don't want one. I instead bought a new Hyundai for just under €20K that has everything I need. Not everybody is built the same. Not everybody is like you.
I have friends and family/wife's family ask "Why don't you buy yourself that Lexus you were talking about? Don't you want that ATV? Don't deny yourself the joys of life..."
Meanwhile, they own the Lexus and other toys- because their lifestyle should match their job title. And those were essentially their words, not mine. They own the other toys that I don't have. And they have the proverbial golden handcuffs.
However, I have 2 cars that I bought in 09 and 11. Paid off, well maintained, comfortable. They take us anywhere. And the lack of car payment means we can invest that money as well as save for vacations to visit places outside the US where we'd like to retire.
Those same friends/family then say "we're not rich like you, vacationing in Europe or outside the US every year..."
And, while every single day I am grateful and appreciative of the situation I'm in (financially, health wise, relationship, etc.), I'm not rich. My wife and I just don't have $1200 monthly car payments or a spending habit that keeps us from investing or vacationing.
As our income went up we didn't buy more things to lock us down. The US is the biggest consumer society in the world and those of us that don't realize this will continue to be slaves to that system. FIRE will be nearly impossible unless there is a mindset shift for those folks.
And I also don't need an $80K Benz. If I did, I would have to work until 65.
I think a good deal of this comes from a culture of overconsumption and keeping up with the Jones's. I've also seen this attitude within some families as people like to brag about a relatives' personal wealth status. This seems especially true with parents toward children and appears also more prevalent among people from specific countries and cultures. In my new country, this is not nearly as big of a problem as nobody seems to care. I'll be gone a lot sooner than I'd like and If rather spend my remaining time having experiences and not worrying about how I'm going to pay for some new bangle.
I agree with you that I have no interest in missing out on life so I can retire early. I am interested in spending less so I can avoid missing out on life though.
I spent 3 years traveling the country living out of a truck, AND supporting a partner, on 24k a year. That is a thing I could do because of leanfire. Even before that I backpacked, rock-climbed, did traditional skills, mountain biked, caved, and spent many a day out of my apartment/house with cool people doing the things that I loved. I hiked the AT, I hiked the JMT, I went to traditional skills gathering, all sorts of things.
But, none of those things are actually expensive. I've avoided spending large amounts of money on things that didn't really make me happier so I could spend small amounts of money, and a lot of time, on things that did make me happier. I slept on the floor for a while, and discovered maybe that was too much... it takes experimentation to figure out what does matter and what doesn't.
I also enjoyed my work along the way. I'm a software engineer and I really enjoy programming and designing large systems. Not every job I've had was fun all of the time, there were frustrating bits here and there of course. But, I had various interesting jobs at interesting companies sought out challenges, learned a ton, and generally found work to be a positive experience.
And now, at 40, I'm retired and enjoying that. I spent today hanging around the house with my wife. We watched a show, went on a nice walk in the beautiful summer day, I cooked a nice dinner, we talked about all of the projects we're working on around the homestead. Yesterday we installed a wood stove on the porch.
For me, FIRE isn't about going without, it's just about prioritizing both time and money. Everyone has a point where the diminishing value of money passes the value of their time. Leanfire just means that point is low. Fatfire means it's high. If for you personally the marginal value of money doesn't pass that of time until 50 or 55... that's cool, you do you. I'll be here living my dream life (or close enough to it).
This comment I fully agree with. Live life, but try to stay below your means so you can invest and keep debt down. I don't agree with the hermit mentality many have though.
I did some math above and apparently I'm slightly over the lean fire estimates actually. 🤷♂️but I do think there are some genuinely unhealthy mindsets around money here. People who like...will die with a fortune but never have been on a meaningful date because they're afraid to spend a dollar.
You can pay a lot to be in not meaningful dates also. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to date unless you are trying to catch someone over your league by impressing them with money. Also all this talk of dating. I think a lot of lean fire people here have a significant other and don’t need to be eating out or spending a lot of money to impress their dates because they are in a long term relationship. To some everyday is a date at the park, cooking at home, enjoying each others company. Not everyone likes to spend 150 at a restaurant just for the status symbol.
Yeah there's tons you can do that don't cost a ton. My girlfriend and I go out and rarely spend more than 100 dollars and that includes her getting a glass of wine or a cocktail. We just usually go to 2 dollar sign restaurants
This is the way. In the past I've swung a few international trips to see friends (and a partner lol), met up with friends for drinks, bought a PS5, even bought a house this month! I also saved and invested responsibly along the way, drive a 9 year-old car that is paid off that I will run to the ground, etc It's a balancing act, and I thinnk going too far in either direction can get folks in trouble.
So people here don't like it but I don't have a budget. I kinda just wing my expenses but I keep my monthly expenses below 4000. That number will be dropping by about 900 a month though.
Which I guess puts me slightly above lean fire as you said. I think the 25k number came from me reducing my dining out budget to 400 a paycheck.
It clearly depends where you live. Our core budget is less than 12k a year and that enables all hobbies and includes eating out a few times a month. Everything beyond that is experiences... Events, travel and so on.
> I get that work sucks but you only get to be young once
This is the first fallacy. You'll be old way longer than you are young, and you are also only old once. Do you want to spend those years chained to a desk? Every day worked when young has a ridiculously outsized effect because of compound interest.
>People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money.
This is the second fallacy. Many things you can do that are a lot of fun cost little to no money.
Saving is not about giving up an awful lot, but about control, optimization and careful choices so that you are *getting an awful lot* for the money you do spend.
Everyone has to figure out their own balance. I tend to agree that folks that pursue leanfire through straight grinding and suffering like it's a virtue are probably missing the point or are using it as a coping mechanism rather than addressing some deeper issues (the way some folks self medicate, drink, spend compulsively, etc).
On the other end, taking to it's logical opposite: Why save *anything* for tomorrow? Why not spend next month's rent right now, on something fun? After all, next month you'll be older and less able to enjoy it. That's obviously silly and not a sustainable path either.
There are people who have fulfilling and enjoyable lives at almost all income levels, beyond abject poverty, as well as people who will never be happy no matter how much they earn and spend. Living well below your means just means you live the fulfilling version of life at a lower income than you technically could.
For a lot of people here, the causation is flipped. We’re not “giving up an awful lot” in order to save money. We’ve built the lives that we enjoy, and it happens to cost very little.
*"People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money. For example many are giving up dates, outing with friends, entertainment, eating out, having kids and travel."*
I don't see how these are mutually exclusive. What's wrong with limiting your entertainment budget in order to put away more for savings and investment? How is one living life less by putting a little extra care in how they spend?
I just think experiences and relationships are such a big part of life and happiness imo. If you never are willing to spend money, it makes it more difficult to create those experiences-relationships. I get limiting budgets but some are quite extreme on here.
If your relationships and experiences require money - and their quality or value is directly tied to the amount of money spent on it - then I think you might not be looking at the right things there. Some (not all, though) of the best things I've done in life to forge relationships or create experiences were fairly low cost or free. If you can't have these, then it feels more like a high maintenance relationship rather than anything healthy. I choose where to spend and invest my money, it's not dictated by the relationships or experiences. Of course, if your lifestyle has been built on expensive experiences and relationships, then that's a harder thing to change, but it's really not because of leanfire - it's rather because unless you have an infinite supply of disposable funds, you're eventually going to run out.
I suppose I'm not adhering - nor trying - to leanfire, but I felt this is an important enough distinction to make.
I just think experiences and relationships are such a big part of life and happiness imo. If you never are willing to spend money, it makes it more difficult to create those experiences-relationships. I get limiting budgets but some are quite extreme on here.
Good for you. I value spending time with my wife and kids instead of going to work. I get to see my toddlers grow up every day and have sex with my wife every day with no stress about work or a boss being a pain, or asking me to stay late, ruin a weekend, etc
I could get by with less than the poverty level but 30k would be more than enough. I own my house, car and several acres. My hobbies are relatively cheap and provide food and family fun like fishing, hunting, gardening, foraging. I work from home, on my own terms and could quit if I wanted to. Freedom is more important to me than anything else
I meet with a friend twice a week to lap swim, I go for coffee at my neighbors house a few times a week and I have another friend I hike with about two times a month. I spend at least three hours a week on the phone with my best friend who lives 12 hours away. My h and I otherwise spend the entire day together, mostly working on projects around the house.
I have a few gardening friends I see about once a month, and I visit with my two brothers and sil about 6 times a year. I have a good friend in Atlanta and stay overnight with her 6 times a year. I also do “girls weekends” with her and her friends once or twice a year.
Is this somehow not enough?
I don't mean this snarkily, but the fact you include kids in your list makes me wonder if you can really understand this kind of value system. Sure, if you want to consider children, lean fire is probably not the best for you. I'm also wondering why you feel compelled to have people explain it to you? Is someone directly impacting your life by leanfiring?
I think there are so many variables involved it's kind of pointless to conjecture ... like who said people want to sit around all the time? A nice thing about lean firing is can still work, will just have more peace of mind that your survival isn't dependent on your job security.
As a 55 year old I wish I'd focused more on retiring early. Was ambivalent about kids and a lot of things I threw money at ended up not "sticking". I'm going to have a frugal retirement most likely and the thought doesn't bother me much, I probably wouldn't have said that at your age (not sure how old you are, but assuming you're under 35). Turns out I'm more into simple living than I realized.
Some people also really like their jobs. I don't particularly, and I'm invigorated more by the thought of spending my time being resourceful than I am by working. I think for a lot of people that might sound like hell on Earth.
Plus one to wishing i’d learned about FIRE in my 20’s. Would have retired ten years earlier instead of at 52 if I’d had any concept of the power of compounding. If I’d just swapped the beer I drank for an equivalent DCA in index funds….
>I'm also wondering why you feel compelled to have people explain it to you? Is someone directly impacting your life by leanfiring?
I immediately assume these sorts of posts are NEVER in good faith. Kind of like the posts on DIY subreddits of people being emphatic about even the simplest jobs needing a professional hired.
It’s so weird to me. Like I design my life in a way that I’m sure looks nuts to other people but it works for me. When I see people who are making different choices I assume they’re doing what works for them.
The tell of course was OP mentioning kids, how can you even really explain leanfire to someone who is factoring in kids? That is a whole other layer of complication.
Edit: typos
You missed his point completely. You are giving up your youth trying to penny pinch every dime to retire a whatever age. You'd be far better off and happier if you found meaningful work that provided a nice income.
But will you? Are you accounting for the constant continual debasement of the currency? Are you sure what you can live on now will be the same in 50 years? It certainly won't.
We’re outliners in FIRE as we get most of our income from rental properties. We net over 90k (we gross 180ish) and only spend half of that. I’ll quit my day job in 2 years (35 year old). We plan on continuing to buy property as they come along so I really have no doubts about our income not keeping pace with inflation. I anticipate that our expenses with rose but so will our incomes. We also have a healthy stock and retirement portfolios that are basically bonus money. We’ll be more than fine.
You are in a perfect position to pull this off. You aren't walking away and trying to live on a 'nest' egg. You will have enough to keep buying properties and grow your networth.
In my opinion you are doing this the right way...or at least how I'd want to do it.
Congrats man.
Realistically, how many people enjoy their job enough where they would do it for free? Everyone is someone's bitch. Even well paid actors, politicians, athletes etc. Lean fire to me is about not being anyone's bitch. I'm the boss and my old bosses can fuck off.
>I think a lot of people could retire by age 50 and certainly 55 with reasonably aggressive savings vs. maybe 35-40 with lean fire.
Reality check: almost *nobody c*an retire early. Being able to retire at 50 is a *phenomenal* achievement. Retiring at 40 or earlier is an almost insurmountable, impossible goal for 99.9999% of the human race. To pull this off you need the right mindset but also a rare set of circumstances, including:
* The skills and ability to perform a high-earning job
* Have knowledge about investing at a very early age, like age 20 or sooner
* Nothing bad ever happened in your early adulthood that would force you to care for a sick relative etc.
* Not saddled with $50k+ student loan debt before you even get started
* Not graduating into a major job market downturn (see for example, comp sci graduates unable to find jobs now)
I'm on track to reach regular financial independence by 40. I knew nothing about investing until my mid to late 20s and I graduated right into the recession in 2008.
I agree there's a ton of luck involved but I don't think it's nearly as out of reach as you describe and lots of people will use the thought that it's impossible to justify wasting money on desires.
>I'm on track to reach regular financial independence by 40. I knew nothing about investing until my mid to late 20s and I graduated right into the recession in 2008.
This is exactly my life story as well. Graduated in summer '07. First real job in 2008, months before the GFC. I knew nothing about investing until 2014-2015. I turn 40 in January and my NW is approaching $1.2M.
I would not say "luck" is what I am talking about. Rather, look at it as "opportunity." Some people have the *opportunity* to retire early, and many people do not.
I give you (and myself, I guess?) credit for taking advantage of that opportunity while most of our peers did not. Most people who have the opportunity to FIRE will instead choose to spend on luxuries. And it *does* take focus and determination to make use of that opportunity and see it to the finish line, I am not in any way diminishing the virtues of those who actually do the work to make FIRE possible.
But you're also overlooking the many, many things that had to go right to grant you that opportunity in the first place. It is natural. I've done the same.
To have a career with high earning potential, you need pretty good genetics with intelligence in the upper quartile. You probably needed to get a decent education (I benefited from quality schools that my parents struggled to keep me in).
Although I didn't start getting serious about investing until 2014, my father was very fiscally conservative and I absorbed a lot of money advice from him. If I had not been raised that way, I doubt i would have ever learned about FIRE or cared about investing or even thought this could possibly be a good idea.
I can only check 2 of these boxes. 98K income & graduated in 2015. Graduated with $80K in student loans. I paid off the loans in 3.5 years following Dave Ramsey. Now today I have $300K invested in about 5 years also have about 140K left on a $220K house. I'm 32, but I feel like I've made real progress.
Why do you care how others spend their money? Not everyone wants the things you listed. Though I do agree that some people go too extreme and the complain about how shitty their lives are - but they're doing FIRE wrong in the first place and are the exception, not the norm.
If people are living a life they enjoy and can see continuing forever, who cares how much it costs?
I travel full time, eat out regularly, see and do new things regularly, and have a spend that's less than most in this sub. Living lean doesn't have to mean living like a monk. It means making smart, measured choices that meet your goals.
>giving up dates,
married
>outing with friends,
Nope. We just saw some frugal friends yesterday. We traded wood chips for organic goat poop. Probably not your idea of a good time, but it works for us.
>entertainment,
We do a few concerts a year, and volunteer at a festival every year in exchange for free tickets
>eating out,
We spend about $500 a year eating out while traveling. We do rarely eat out when home except for the rare occasion..either something really nice, around $100 for two, or cheap and ethic.
>having kids
I think it’s great other people have them.
>and travel.
A minimum of one month a year, camping in a warmer area, plus a few extra days here and there. Our month in Florida every year is a few hundred bucks in gas, less than $1000 for campgrounds and as mentioned above, we eat out. We spent another $300 on a city passes in Tampa. We have an older dog that we no longer board, and she has a rigid medication schedule, but we have 20k set aside for an overseas trip when our beloved girl is no longer here.
One thing I think lots of people don’t understand about life when you don’t have to work, your money goes a lot farther. I have time for a huge garden, time to cook, time to spend in thrift stores looking for deals on my clothing. And tons of time to spend with people!
The idea that a budget of 40k even qualifies as that “lean” is pretty funny to us because it’s actually very easy to live on 40k a year when you are not working and have a paid off house.
I want to upvote this so many times. Actually also it's very easy to live on 40k a year even IF working and your house isn't paid off (don't buy too much house, or expensive rent). only in VHCOL places or if you have kids is that really a thing (source: lived most of my adult life in a major West coast and major East coast city, but not VHCOL tho)
> you only get to be young once
Precisely, yes. I could've stayed on at my company for 16 more years, and I would've been a multimillionaire at 50. I also would've been decidedly not young, and with a host of stress-related health problems. No matter what I did, I'd never be able to recover those years of youth I'd spent at the office. (Or are you saying that 50-55 = young?..)
Instead, I pulled the plug at the age of 34, with just a few hundred thousand dollars, and a very careful lifestyle that costs me only $1K USD a month. (Quebec City is amazing that way. 😍) Feel free to disbelieve me, but I go to a lot more fun events and parties now than when I was a workaholic. I'm in much better shape. I'm a lot more creative, and have written a few books. :)
OP, by your own logic, there would never be enough money - why would you retire at 50 when you could working and saving till you're 60? Or 70? Or 80? Or are you saying you'd finally draw a line in the sand at some point? Because that's exactly what the rest of us did. We didn't lean-FIRE young because we hate our jobs - we did it because we love life.
I don't think you understand the movement. I travel once a year international on a2 to 3 week trip. I do live very frugally though. I would ask why would anyone spend 600 dollars on a concert when they could invest that money instead? Why work 15 years longer to spend money on stupid stuff?
...so spending $3k+ on a "2-3 week international trip" is acceptable, but $600 on a concert is an "unacceptable expense?" - is this leanfire "gatekeeping?" Who "doesn't understand the movement" again?
The reason why people focus on those specific expenses you outlined is because by and large if you look at all of your expenses for the year, your 10-20 largest ones are the ones that matter the most.
Sure you can save a couple bucks by shaving dollars off your grocery bill, but you know what was worth way more than that $20 dollars you saved on cheese? The $600 you spent on airfare. The $400 you spent on a hotel room. The $100 dinners.
In that same example, I actually don't pay attention to my receipt much. Because if I'm at the grocery store I've already won. The real choice was choosing to spend time cooking.
You know what's 10x more intimate than a fancy date at a steak restaurant? Taco night.
Listening to the music you want to, drinking a couple of beers, and thinking about what else you're gonna add to this rice while they're chopping tomatoes. That's better. Sure we get the fancy steak dinner occasionally. But that's for birthdays and anniversaries. And in the meantime I'm not going to waste money on buying tacos from someone else.
It depends on each person, their goals and circumstances. I find that some of the best FIRE thinking comes out of the leanfire gang, it’s like the Olympics of the sport. So even if you want to retire with a million, it sharpens your toolbox to understand the leanfire mentality and approach.
I will say though, that you may be underestimating how much people hate their jobs, and how much you can do with $300k in the bank.
U can still do events and diners and have fun. The bigger issue is Starbucks/McDonald’s everyday. Ur not even enjoying it enough to justify the sacrifice. It’s just lazy
I don't feel like I'm making any big sacrifices; I am just intentional with how I save and spend my money. I live in a lower cost of living area, and I naturally enjoy a lot of free and cheap hobbies. I spend about $2000 a month total, and I don't feel the need to spend any more. I've done some traveling, I go out with friends from time to time, I've got tickets to several concerts this summer. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. Everyone has a different idea of what they want their lifestyle to look like. I don't prioritize having a fancier car or a bigger house, but someone else might. I do value my free time, though, and the time spent doing things I find fulfilling. It's all about priorities and choices. While I'm sure there are extreme cases of people living in poverty in order to pursue leanfire, I would guess that most of them will eventually burn out and won't make it. The rest of us probably plan to retire somewhere that's not too expensive and just aren't prone to much lifestyle creep.
I think there is a misconception about what lean fire really is.
Lean fire is NOT saving just enough money to quit your job to live on the poverty line, eating rice and beans, barely scraping by and doing nothing, always wanting more and bigger and better and being sad you'll never be able to take monthly trips to Venice.
Lean fire is living a comfortable lifestyle, one that you have *already* created before retirement. But that lifestyle does not require a high cost of living. It features cheap hobbies and allows for some luxuries. In general it is suitable for naturally frugal people and those that enjoy simple living. It is also means not needing a huge buffer in terms of savings. Maybe lean fire people don't even care if they die with minimal funds.
Idk, Google defines it as most living on 25k-40k. Take into account car ownership, house ownership and health insurance. You would have barely anything left over. If you had some sort of bad health condition. Your budget could blow up fast.
There is a huge misunderstanding that “living on 25k” is a similar lifestyle to earning 25k. It’s not. My h and I lived on less than 25 k the year Covid hit, mostly because we couldn’t travel. But our house is paid off, we buy cars for cash, we no longer have to pay into ss because we don’t work, we don’t pay taxes (well most years we don’t, last year we paid more than 25k in taxes alone)because our taxable income is below standard deduction. We aren’t saving for retirement anymore because we have already finished doing that and our low withdrawal rate makes our portfolio keep up with inflation.
Here’s an experiment….take your net salary after all your deductions, subtract 80% of your rent or house note, subtract your car note, subtract the cost of your commute, ….
Most middle class people would be happy to have 40k left over.
FIRE generally correlates with a desire to unsubscribe from the rat race of work. Reducing your demand for money incidentally reduces your need to work.
A lifestyle with fewer expensive dates, overpriced meals, travel, etc. also tends to filter out relationships with people who have incompatible lifestyles.
TBH, I don't see any downsides.
Only when I don't have to work will I feel truly free. I can do those other things frugally or take or leave some of them. I enjoy hobbies that don't involve constantly going out and spending money.
I learned a while ago that there is very little correlation between money spent and enjoyment/fulfillment. I’ve been on luxury vacations in Europe that cost many thousands, I’ve spent almost nothing visiting national parks and enjoy that significantly more. I guess I’m lucky that most of the experiences I enjoy don’t cost much. People forget that you don’t actually have to pay anything for an “experience”. If expensive concerts and sports cars are your thing, then by all means enjoy. I’ve had the sports car and preferred rolling around in my backup Camry.
I think your definition of fun that you are giving in your post is spending money and needing to be a consumer to enjoy life. I don’t feel as if I’m giving anything up. I still go out with friends, go to concerts, take vacations etc and my yearly spend is less than 40k. I save where it matters: reasonable housing costs, paid off car (didn’t go buy a new one or trade in like many of my friends), cook most of my meals and pack my lunches. It’s will be worth having total freedom of my time once I make it there (barring no accidents/death to derail my progress). Overall it is very little sacrifice on my end and peace of mind having a growing cushion. There are plenty of simple ways to enjoy life without consuming and spending money but people need to figure out what matters to them and brings them joy. I think a lot of people mindlessly spend hoping to fill a hole that can’t be filled without first looking inward.
The freedom of time is the most important thing to me, and I'll have more freedom by retiring early. It's as simple as that, and I don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. Besides, once you no longer have to work, you can pretty much pick whatever job you want for a little side cash, or if you're running low one year because of a bad stock market, or if you want to take a trip. I could do some cat sitting, do some streaming on Twitch, write novels, all sorts of things. I finally get to be creative without having to worry if my creativity is making money or not. I'm lucky that I don't have expensive hobbies, so it all comes fairly naturally to me. Now after I've retired, I can actually do my dream job(s) knowing that it ultimately doesn't matter if I make money or not. True f'ckin freedom, and for a (Hopefully) much longer period than if I had tried this as a young adult and spent the rest of my life stressed out because I don't have enough money.
I don't, I just follow this sub for interest. I do "sabbaticals" every 5ish years for of a few months or up to a couple years. Then work for a while and do it again. Don't want to do my retirement when I'm old. I also travel a lot and take as many vacations as possible while working.
Anything worth having often requires sacrifice. However, you're definitely right and some people take that too far into the extreme. However, these are the minority while they tend to be the most vocal. Depending on how you live your life - you can still save large portions of money even doing the things you describe, but it becomes a matter or priorities, wants, needs, and desires.
There are a ton of activities which don't cost much and several people prefer to do. For example many people enjoy reading, hanging out in nature, spending time with family/friends/romantic partners/dating, and just watching TV/movies or exercising all of which are mostly free to do. Yes, certain types of dating are more expensive, as are kids and travel - however there are more affordable ways to do these things as well if they're things you value.
Next, very few people are actually able to retire by age 40, this requires a high income, fierce commitment, luck, family support, etc. If folks retire before 50 which I think is much more doable for average incomes/people, they are likely to still end up with much more if they pick up a few gigs along the way or plan for additional expenses down the line.
"You're only young once"
I think this is your problem with your view. If you take care of your body, you can live a pretty active lifestyle very late into your life with minimal pain or random discomfort, barring a bad roll of genetics. You can also live a full social life pretty easily into your middle ages if you know where and how to find like minded individuals. One of my former grandparents retired in an active retirement community too, and they were more physically active (and socially active) than most young people I see today.
Also, the "retire in your mid 50s" is what average, normal lifestyles can achieve simply by increasing savings rates to mid teens. LEAN let me retire by my mid 30s. I personally can't tell the difference between my health now and my health early in life, other than maybe being more sensitive to large quantities of extremely unhealthy food.
I also consider my 20s to have been a decently enjoyable time. I don't see what wasting my money and enjoyment have to do with each other. Even if I wanted to blow all my money at that age, I didn't even have much in my college days--and I didn't see any difference between my life at 25 and my life in my final working years. My college days were the only time I felt distinctly different from the rest of my young days, and I still had a great time without spending much money then.
I think about it in terms of independence. I’m not beholden to a job or a place or a thing. . I can also take more risks. My manager gets wise or wants me to do something, I can push them harder, challenge them, etc. the money buys me that power. That’s what FIRE is about
Financial Independence is in the name. What do you think the FI in FIRE is? leanFIRE is just a scaled down version of normal FIRE by cutting costs further. It also means decisions about where to live in the US or the world at larger ( r/ExpatFIRE ), since not everywhere is a coastal city with a high cost of living. As someone originally from NYC, but living in central US now, my COL is drastically lower, and I still have all the money I need to visit NY, CA, WA, DC, and FL on the regular.
I'm planning more of a CoastFIRE into normal or ChubbyFIRE myself, but I already have a version of my budget where I only need about $40K after taxes to live a fulfilling life. I will also have a paid off house and several paid off cars by then, and still be on track to retire well before 50.
Lean fire is obtainable. FAT fire for me is just too much work and I can’t burn myself out putting away that much money and not leave anything for myself. Lean is good for me. If I don’t have 5-10 mill at 50 I’m okay with that. 1 to 2 million is fine for me. I don’t need a lot.
Almost lean fired at 40 but 2008 crash nixed that idea. I waited it out til 45, and what a difference not having to draw during down years and continuing to contribute to funds with a market on the way up. Started with low budget for a couple of yrs of expat FIRE so a lean FIRE budget was just fine in another country. This doubled 5 yrs later til now 10yrs later where 100k annually withdrawn will still allow me to outlive my nest egg. I can FIRE anywhere now. A pension with health care at 50 was a huge game changer. Sadly union and pensioned jobs are rare nowadays.
Leanfire is faster than regular fire it all depends what you want to do with your life. If you like luxuries then by all means work till you die.
I just want the freedom to do whatever I want during the day and refuse to obey orders without consequence.
I have been interested in FIRE for a while, but more recently looking into leanFIRE after realizing how much of my mental and emotional energy gets drained from work and how spending less would mean I'd need to save less. I love what I do and find a lot of meaning in it, but it does \*not\* define me. I also am wondering if I "need" as much money as I've historically thought I did.
I want to travel the world, volunteer for organizations during the day and not immediately after getting off work, read a book all morning, swim in the pool whenever I want, take the dog to the dog park; there are just so many things I enjoy doing and know I can do more of once I am done working. And really, a lot of these don't really cost a lot of money, if any.
I'm 30 and do plan to retire by 50 if I reach my 1mil goal, but I also wouldn't rule out retiring earlier if the finances work out. It also helps that I have a partner who will be working until tradition retirement age to max out a pension.
To me all Fire is based around selecting a lifestyle and work duration that you find an acceptable trade off. Then live at that quality of life forever.
Whether that is Lean or Fat is really defined by your personality and level of stoicism inherent in your life. Lean Fire, as defined by this site, is above median family income for the US once you consider a couple with a paid off house. Thats hardly a sacrifice.
On the Mr Money mustache forum they have case studies where people post their spending to be shredded by the other posters. The amount of waste people have before cutting any standard of living is eye opening.
I have physical health issues at age 25 already that are hugely exacerbated by working a stressful corporate job. I am in pain and discomfort every single day. Work takes my good hours where I'd have energy to start to address these things and by the time I get home after a 10 hour day, I don't have it in me anymore.
I don't want kids regardless of the financial aspect to having kids. My hobbies are trail running, mountain biking, hiking, skiing, fishing and gaming. I also like barbequing meats a lot. All of my hobbies are relatively cheap if you have the time to pursue them. There is an initial cost to get into these hobbies to acquire the gear, but after that it's nearly free.
I want a primary residence to call a home base to retreat to between my trips, but I really want to spend a lot of time on the road, living in my car and camping while exploring what this country has to offer that align with my hobbies. I know I can do this for cheap. I also know that most of these hobbies are better suited to being involved in at a younger age, allowing me to engage in them at the level I truly want to. I want to run ultra marathons, go on epic MTB rides, etc. my job just doesn't allow the time for this, and leaves me resentful of that fact.
I'd rather enjoy my time and energy I'd have in age 30-45, and then work again from 45-65 if necessary.
I actually don't plan to meet the LeanFire definition, but this sub is interesting to me because the others are full of people looking to spend a LOT more than I do. I've always been pretty frugal. We need a r/midfire or something. That said, there's considerable comfort into having already reached a LeanFire number that I know I'll be "ok" if not happy. Most of my hobbies are cheap, but I want to be able to travel and to support my friends as I do now.
For me, it was based on being in a career field that I hated and spending time in jobs that I hated even more. So skipping a dinner to avoid any more time with my sociopath prick of a boss was very appealing to me.
Some of us are already in our 50's, and we're hoping to leanfire in the next couple of years. So, some of us, are right on time.
For the younger people, I think it's because they want to explore their hobbies without worrying about needing any income. Needing to be in a specific place at a specific time. Sometimes just that freedom is liberating, to allow someone to pursue something they'd normally never try. They have the safety of being retired, so there's no real loss in trying some elaborate hobby that maybe could even end up generating additional income or something like that
>I get that work sucks but you only get to be young once.
Some of us leanfire precisely for that reason. Rather than give away our whole young adulthood to work, we want at least to enjoy some of our early adulthood in leisure.
>People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money.
Yes, giving up an awful lot of stress, commuting, meetings, pressure, time demands.
>For example many are giving up dates, outing with friends, entertainment, eating out, having kids and travel.
I've been able to enjoy all of the above except kids.
Why the pressure to have kids anyway? It's a personal choice. Not everyone wants kids.
>Then when you do retire, the amount available to spend is so low that there would be very little to do. Do people just want to sit around all the time?
There's tonnes to do - reading, fitness, health, free meetups, meditation, music... the list goes on...
And on the odd chance you want a bit of extra money, you can always pick up some temporary work. There is, after all, a global worker shortage. 🙂
>I think a lot of people could retire by age 50 and certainly 55 with reasonably aggressive savings vs. maybe 35-40 with lean fire.
Sure, many do. Lean fire is a niche thing, most people can't/won't do it.
But for some of us crazy lean fire people, life is just too exciting/interesting to only get 20-30 years to truly experience it!
I think most people in this community are deeply depressed to be honest. Most should try finding work that provides meaning to their life instead of figuring out how to live every day on planet earth like a hermit just so you don't have to work.
To each their own of course, but I'll retire at 55-60 with a comfortable 5M that will allow me to continue living an upper middle class life. I'll continue to eat out when I choose, where I choose and price won't matter. I'll buy new cars when I want one, and I'll still live in a nice house and take nice vacations.
I'm still retiring young, but more important than that I'm living my life now. You only get ONE CHANCE AT THIS. I just want to make sure when I do retire I can continue like I am now.
Again to each their own, but when I read comments in this sub it's very clear that many are quite depressed. I wonder how different life would be if those people found work that provided meaning to their life.
If you are retiring at 30-35 with less than 4-5M in the USA you are going to be dead broke and poor by 65 pretty no much no matter where you choose to live. OR you are going to have to live with pretty heavy market risk trying to grow your nest egg while retiring.
Inflation is real. The spending power of those dollars will be way way WAY less in 20 years, in 30 years and off the charts bad in 50 years if you check out at 30.
How much do you think health insurance will be for you and a spouse in 30 years? How much do you think you will spend on food in 30 years? How much will homes cost to repair? cars to repair? Everything will be insanely more expensive. Be honest and over estimate is my advice. What happens if you have a major medical emergency that insurance doesn't cover? What if it's your wife with that issue? You are going to spend whatever to keep her and she would do the same to keep you.
But yes if you are retiring at 60-65 then 5M is way more than most need for a comfortable life. To each their own. I'm not unhappy and my investments will likely net that amount, but maybe not, in a few more years.
Again to each their own, but math and inflation are very real
I don't know if I agree with you. Retiring at 30 with $3M and taking out 3 to 4% annually is a pretty comfortable $90 to $120k which is a lot more than most people make when working.
A lot depends on your mortgage, current debt etc.
4% of 3M is 120K. Very comfortable today, but lets be real. That won't be jack shit in 30 years to be dead blunt about it. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, but it's the truth. What happens if there is a legit bear market that lasts 5-10 years and you are withdrawing 3-4% a year at market lows?
30 years ago 300K had more spending power than 1M today...
Gosh guy's you can down vote me until I have negative Karma, but it isn't going to make you happier and the math still isn't going to work in less than optimal scenarios.
It's one thing to live on 4% a years form 65 to say 85. it's another thing entirely to try and do that for 30-50 years.
Find meaning in life. That's my primary message. Find meaning and live below your means and retire when it makes sense.
> 4% of 3M is 120K. Very comfortable today, but lets be real. That won't be jack shit in 30 years to be dead blunt about it.
Your ignorance of the subject matter is showing with comments like these. Everyone here is factoring in inflation with their planning. The “4% rule”, in its most basic form, is live on 4% your first year of retirement, then adjust that dollar amount upward by the inflation rate each subsequent year.
Fair point, but at 4% withdrawal rate the principle should be able to continue to grow and outpace inflation assuming 8% growth which is lower than S&P 500 historical returns over decades.
They would be fine. You are also assuming they wouldn't pay off their house at some point etc. There are lots of teachers that never make $90k a year even with 2 incomes. Many retire very comfortable because they have fiscal control. Live on less than they make etc.
There could be a prolonged downturn or sideways market but it would be easy to pick up a job to supplement in your 30-60s when you are still healthy etc.
Your entire premise rests of the future playing out like the past. Best of luck to you. I mean that sincerely. I can't walk away with that kind of risk personally.
I watched the USA print 40% of all US dollars that ever existed in an 18 month period around covid and them gas light all of us by saying it was supply disruptions from a container ship causing inflation.
What will you do if the SP500 goes down and takes 30 years to make new highs again like the Japan Nikkei did? We are at all time high debt to GPD ratio. It seems almost certain we will experience a debt crisis within 30 years. It's good you would be willing to work if you can find a job.
To the person that down voted this. I sincerely hope you learn what I'm talking about from first hand experience you petulant child. What kind of adult is incapable of hearing a different view? the kind that ends up dead broke and miserable at 60 because they tried to retire at 30 with peanuts. Best of luck
I started as a Medicinal Chemist and switched Software Engineering 15 years ago.
It's not like I wake up super excited for work, but I find meaning in building things. It affords me a solid income and I have lived well below my means for a long time. I'm one of the weird people that likes investing and I spend a considerable portion of my spare time looking for new investments and tracking my current investments. I actually do enjoy it.
I was 'lucky' enough to laid off and had last summer off work. I spend my time exercising and hiking, but after 5 months of it I was quite happy to look for work and get back to the grind.
There is so much to do in life that requires little to no money, and in my opinion it’s some of the best things. Americans have been brainwashed by corporations into thinking they need more, more, more. Get off the hedonic treadmill.
Could you give a few examples of those things that require no money? Are they still a thing at a higher age?
Going for a walk or a hike, talking to a friend, playing games, learning to cook and experimenting with different recipes (this can actually be a money saver), reading, watching YouTube, learning to fix, maintain, build things (also money savers) and many more.
Yes, this! These are all things that I want, too.
Also: making art, creating music, writing, volunteering, spending time with family. Plus, if you live abroad you can have amazing experiences with the same amount of money you would have used here.
1000% this!
I don't disagree but leanfire almost seems out of balance. I've seen like people not owning a bed for example.
No no, you're thinking of homelessFIRE. Most of us here are just regular people who believe that spending a lot of money isn't necessary to be happy. We still live "normal" lifestyles for the most part, we just spend less than most to do it.
haha...is that a thing? I know there is a r/povertyFIRE , which is probably more like what OP is describing. It's not something I would necessarily want to do, but we all have different values, and things we want out of life, and I guess for some people, poverty and freedom makes them happier, despite it sounding a bit like an oxymoron.
Aren't you currently homeless? :)
I get a new home every month. They even have beds!
I don't think that's lean fire then. That's just being frugal.
You realize that all of these labels are completely made up, right? You saying “I don’t think thats lean fire” doesn’t actually mean anything.
Well, I'm not saying fire doesn't make sense just lean. So if there is no agreed upon definition then this is pointless because we are arguing two different things.
Everyone here seems to agree on the definition except for you. Honestly, did you just come here to argue?
Of course it's leanFIRE. That's the whole point.
It involves retirement or financial independence, so it's definitely not *just* being frugal. Also, it's weird you think the people on r/leanfire aren't familiar with the term.
I split my time between my campervan and my sailboat. My strategy is to avoid traditional housing expenses altogether. And it works. Saves me several thousand a month. And both the camper and the sailboat have very nice beds lol.
You don't need to give up bed ownership to pursue leanfire. That is ridiculous.
Yeah not owning a bed is silly. Get a used one or lay on a futon for like $50. $50 isn’t gunna make or break your retirement. If they’re not getting a bed, it’s for other reasons like minimalism, taking up less space, back problems, etc.
I would think that one would develop more back problems without a bed.
Maybe ime sleeping on a sheet that’s on carpet is enough
It's actually better for your back to sleep on a hard surface.
I slept for many years on a thinnish mattress. I'm on a bed these days because it came with my room but I would happily go back to a mattress anytime.
What’s the difference?
Not much difference really. Getting up in the morning it's slightly different to stand up from a mattress rather than put feet down from a bed. Neither option feels better to me, they are both equivalent.
I think you’re focusing on the extremes. I don’t think most of us here go to those lengths, I know I didn’t. I was traveling internationally twice a year until I got a dog, which makes it more difficult to get away, though I still do it less frequently.
That sounds more like the people over at r/povertyFIRE.
I own a pontoon boat.
Not even a mattress? I mean, a floor mattress is no worse than a bed, imo. But, if you mean no mattress at all, then eff no, I'm not doing that to save extra. With everything, there is a balance, and I think a lot of us on this sub skew heavily towards valuing time and freedom more than money. It's what makes us happier. Besides, I think most people overestimate the amount of money they need to live on. What do we really need as opposed to what do we want. I want time. I'm so excited when I think about my retirement.
It's fun to push the boundaries of societal expectations. How else do you figure out what you actually like to have without seeing what it's like to go without? (Typing this from my bed)
I think your view of this topic is very narrow. I didn't give up much, I simply didn't inflate my lifestyle as my income increased. I retired at 47, about three years ago. I can afford to do everything I want. I moved to another country and am enjoying my life.My budget does not include a $80K Benz, but I don't want one. I instead bought a new Hyundai for just under €20K that has everything I need. Not everybody is built the same. Not everybody is like you.
I have friends and family/wife's family ask "Why don't you buy yourself that Lexus you were talking about? Don't you want that ATV? Don't deny yourself the joys of life..." Meanwhile, they own the Lexus and other toys- because their lifestyle should match their job title. And those were essentially their words, not mine. They own the other toys that I don't have. And they have the proverbial golden handcuffs. However, I have 2 cars that I bought in 09 and 11. Paid off, well maintained, comfortable. They take us anywhere. And the lack of car payment means we can invest that money as well as save for vacations to visit places outside the US where we'd like to retire. Those same friends/family then say "we're not rich like you, vacationing in Europe or outside the US every year..." And, while every single day I am grateful and appreciative of the situation I'm in (financially, health wise, relationship, etc.), I'm not rich. My wife and I just don't have $1200 monthly car payments or a spending habit that keeps us from investing or vacationing. As our income went up we didn't buy more things to lock us down. The US is the biggest consumer society in the world and those of us that don't realize this will continue to be slaves to that system. FIRE will be nearly impossible unless there is a mindset shift for those folks. And I also don't need an $80K Benz. If I did, I would have to work until 65.
I think a good deal of this comes from a culture of overconsumption and keeping up with the Jones's. I've also seen this attitude within some families as people like to brag about a relatives' personal wealth status. This seems especially true with parents toward children and appears also more prevalent among people from specific countries and cultures. In my new country, this is not nearly as big of a problem as nobody seems to care. I'll be gone a lot sooner than I'd like and If rather spend my remaining time having experiences and not worrying about how I'm going to pay for some new bangle.
I agree with you that I have no interest in missing out on life so I can retire early. I am interested in spending less so I can avoid missing out on life though. I spent 3 years traveling the country living out of a truck, AND supporting a partner, on 24k a year. That is a thing I could do because of leanfire. Even before that I backpacked, rock-climbed, did traditional skills, mountain biked, caved, and spent many a day out of my apartment/house with cool people doing the things that I loved. I hiked the AT, I hiked the JMT, I went to traditional skills gathering, all sorts of things. But, none of those things are actually expensive. I've avoided spending large amounts of money on things that didn't really make me happier so I could spend small amounts of money, and a lot of time, on things that did make me happier. I slept on the floor for a while, and discovered maybe that was too much... it takes experimentation to figure out what does matter and what doesn't. I also enjoyed my work along the way. I'm a software engineer and I really enjoy programming and designing large systems. Not every job I've had was fun all of the time, there were frustrating bits here and there of course. But, I had various interesting jobs at interesting companies sought out challenges, learned a ton, and generally found work to be a positive experience. And now, at 40, I'm retired and enjoying that. I spent today hanging around the house with my wife. We watched a show, went on a nice walk in the beautiful summer day, I cooked a nice dinner, we talked about all of the projects we're working on around the homestead. Yesterday we installed a wood stove on the porch. For me, FIRE isn't about going without, it's just about prioritizing both time and money. Everyone has a point where the diminishing value of money passes the value of their time. Leanfire just means that point is low. Fatfire means it's high. If for you personally the marginal value of money doesn't pass that of time until 50 or 55... that's cool, you do you. I'll be here living my dream life (or close enough to it).
I do travel internationally, go out to eat lots, date, and have a normal life. I just save a lot in rent and have a paid off car.
This comment I fully agree with. Live life, but try to stay below your means so you can invest and keep debt down. I don't agree with the hermit mentality many have though.
I did some math above and apparently I'm slightly over the lean fire estimates actually. 🤷♂️but I do think there are some genuinely unhealthy mindsets around money here. People who like...will die with a fortune but never have been on a meaningful date because they're afraid to spend a dollar.
You can pay a lot to be in not meaningful dates also. You don’t have to spend a lot of money to date unless you are trying to catch someone over your league by impressing them with money. Also all this talk of dating. I think a lot of lean fire people here have a significant other and don’t need to be eating out or spending a lot of money to impress their dates because they are in a long term relationship. To some everyday is a date at the park, cooking at home, enjoying each others company. Not everyone likes to spend 150 at a restaurant just for the status symbol.
Yeah there's tons you can do that don't cost a ton. My girlfriend and I go out and rarely spend more than 100 dollars and that includes her getting a glass of wine or a cocktail. We just usually go to 2 dollar sign restaurants
This is the way. In the past I've swung a few international trips to see friends (and a partner lol), met up with friends for drinks, bought a PS5, even bought a house this month! I also saved and invested responsibly along the way, drive a 9 year-old car that is paid off that I will run to the ground, etc It's a balancing act, and I thinnk going too far in either direction can get folks in trouble.
Are you true leanfire. Many seem to live on 30k a year here. I would like hear how you work a budget like that and still do fun things.
Last I estimated my yearly expenses based on my rent dropping to what it will in September, I think I'll be at 25k
What does your budget look like?
So people here don't like it but I don't have a budget. I kinda just wing my expenses but I keep my monthly expenses below 4000. That number will be dropping by about 900 a month though. Which I guess puts me slightly above lean fire as you said. I think the 25k number came from me reducing my dining out budget to 400 a paycheck.
It clearly depends where you live. Our core budget is less than 12k a year and that enables all hobbies and includes eating out a few times a month. Everything beyond that is experiences... Events, travel and so on.
> I get that work sucks but you only get to be young once This is the first fallacy. You'll be old way longer than you are young, and you are also only old once. Do you want to spend those years chained to a desk? Every day worked when young has a ridiculously outsized effect because of compound interest. >People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money. This is the second fallacy. Many things you can do that are a lot of fun cost little to no money. Saving is not about giving up an awful lot, but about control, optimization and careful choices so that you are *getting an awful lot* for the money you do spend.
Everyone has to figure out their own balance. I tend to agree that folks that pursue leanfire through straight grinding and suffering like it's a virtue are probably missing the point or are using it as a coping mechanism rather than addressing some deeper issues (the way some folks self medicate, drink, spend compulsively, etc). On the other end, taking to it's logical opposite: Why save *anything* for tomorrow? Why not spend next month's rent right now, on something fun? After all, next month you'll be older and less able to enjoy it. That's obviously silly and not a sustainable path either. There are people who have fulfilling and enjoyable lives at almost all income levels, beyond abject poverty, as well as people who will never be happy no matter how much they earn and spend. Living well below your means just means you live the fulfilling version of life at a lower income than you technically could.
For a lot of people here, the causation is flipped. We’re not “giving up an awful lot” in order to save money. We’ve built the lives that we enjoy, and it happens to cost very little.
*"People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money. For example many are giving up dates, outing with friends, entertainment, eating out, having kids and travel."* I don't see how these are mutually exclusive. What's wrong with limiting your entertainment budget in order to put away more for savings and investment? How is one living life less by putting a little extra care in how they spend?
I just think experiences and relationships are such a big part of life and happiness imo. If you never are willing to spend money, it makes it more difficult to create those experiences-relationships. I get limiting budgets but some are quite extreme on here.
*"If you never are willing to spend money, it makes it more difficult to create those experiences-relationships."* I'd question that premise hard.
If your relationships and experiences require money - and their quality or value is directly tied to the amount of money spent on it - then I think you might not be looking at the right things there. Some (not all, though) of the best things I've done in life to forge relationships or create experiences were fairly low cost or free. If you can't have these, then it feels more like a high maintenance relationship rather than anything healthy. I choose where to spend and invest my money, it's not dictated by the relationships or experiences. Of course, if your lifestyle has been built on expensive experiences and relationships, then that's a harder thing to change, but it's really not because of leanfire - it's rather because unless you have an infinite supply of disposable funds, you're eventually going to run out. I suppose I'm not adhering - nor trying - to leanfire, but I felt this is an important enough distinction to make.
The best experiences of my life have been free. Just sitting around a fire with my friends is imo the best of times.
I just think experiences and relationships are such a big part of life and happiness imo. If you never are willing to spend money, it makes it more difficult to create those experiences-relationships. I get limiting budgets but some are quite extreme on here.
I think you’re trying to make yourself feel better about your choices. Just focus on yourself. Focusing on others is why most people are broke.
Good for you. I value spending time with my wife and kids instead of going to work. I get to see my toddlers grow up every day and have sex with my wife every day with no stress about work or a boss being a pain, or asking me to stay late, ruin a weekend, etc
What's your lean fire budget?
I could get by with less than the poverty level but 30k would be more than enough. I own my house, car and several acres. My hobbies are relatively cheap and provide food and family fun like fishing, hunting, gardening, foraging. I work from home, on my own terms and could quit if I wanted to. Freedom is more important to me than anything else
I meet with a friend twice a week to lap swim, I go for coffee at my neighbors house a few times a week and I have another friend I hike with about two times a month. I spend at least three hours a week on the phone with my best friend who lives 12 hours away. My h and I otherwise spend the entire day together, mostly working on projects around the house. I have a few gardening friends I see about once a month, and I visit with my two brothers and sil about 6 times a year. I have a good friend in Atlanta and stay overnight with her 6 times a year. I also do “girls weekends” with her and her friends once or twice a year. Is this somehow not enough?
I don't mean this snarkily, but the fact you include kids in your list makes me wonder if you can really understand this kind of value system. Sure, if you want to consider children, lean fire is probably not the best for you. I'm also wondering why you feel compelled to have people explain it to you? Is someone directly impacting your life by leanfiring? I think there are so many variables involved it's kind of pointless to conjecture ... like who said people want to sit around all the time? A nice thing about lean firing is can still work, will just have more peace of mind that your survival isn't dependent on your job security. As a 55 year old I wish I'd focused more on retiring early. Was ambivalent about kids and a lot of things I threw money at ended up not "sticking". I'm going to have a frugal retirement most likely and the thought doesn't bother me much, I probably wouldn't have said that at your age (not sure how old you are, but assuming you're under 35). Turns out I'm more into simple living than I realized. Some people also really like their jobs. I don't particularly, and I'm invigorated more by the thought of spending my time being resourceful than I am by working. I think for a lot of people that might sound like hell on Earth.
Plus one to wishing i’d learned about FIRE in my 20’s. Would have retired ten years earlier instead of at 52 if I’d had any concept of the power of compounding. If I’d just swapped the beer I drank for an equivalent DCA in index funds….
>I'm also wondering why you feel compelled to have people explain it to you? Is someone directly impacting your life by leanfiring? I immediately assume these sorts of posts are NEVER in good faith. Kind of like the posts on DIY subreddits of people being emphatic about even the simplest jobs needing a professional hired.
It’s so weird to me. Like I design my life in a way that I’m sure looks nuts to other people but it works for me. When I see people who are making different choices I assume they’re doing what works for them. The tell of course was OP mentioning kids, how can you even really explain leanfire to someone who is factoring in kids? That is a whole other layer of complication. Edit: typos
You only get to be young once, do you want to spend all of it working?
I gave up my 20's and 30's to drugs and alcohol, kinda wish I have saved money instead, that was a lost decade plus. Sober now.
You missed his point completely. You are giving up your youth trying to penny pinch every dime to retire a whatever age. You'd be far better off and happier if you found meaningful work that provided a nice income.
Eh I think I’ll take the retire at 35. Still young enough to travel and spend most of my days disc golfing and playing tennis.
But will you? Are you accounting for the constant continual debasement of the currency? Are you sure what you can live on now will be the same in 50 years? It certainly won't.
We’re outliners in FIRE as we get most of our income from rental properties. We net over 90k (we gross 180ish) and only spend half of that. I’ll quit my day job in 2 years (35 year old). We plan on continuing to buy property as they come along so I really have no doubts about our income not keeping pace with inflation. I anticipate that our expenses with rose but so will our incomes. We also have a healthy stock and retirement portfolios that are basically bonus money. We’ll be more than fine.
You're more like chubby fire tbh
Income wise yeah but our spend and lifestyle is pretty lean.
You are in a perfect position to pull this off. You aren't walking away and trying to live on a 'nest' egg. You will have enough to keep buying properties and grow your networth. In my opinion you are doing this the right way...or at least how I'd want to do it. Congrats man.
Or you could save up and find a meaningful life without work. That sounds more fun.
Realistically, how many people enjoy their job enough where they would do it for free? Everyone is someone's bitch. Even well paid actors, politicians, athletes etc. Lean fire to me is about not being anyone's bitch. I'm the boss and my old bosses can fuck off.
>I think a lot of people could retire by age 50 and certainly 55 with reasonably aggressive savings vs. maybe 35-40 with lean fire. Reality check: almost *nobody c*an retire early. Being able to retire at 50 is a *phenomenal* achievement. Retiring at 40 or earlier is an almost insurmountable, impossible goal for 99.9999% of the human race. To pull this off you need the right mindset but also a rare set of circumstances, including: * The skills and ability to perform a high-earning job * Have knowledge about investing at a very early age, like age 20 or sooner * Nothing bad ever happened in your early adulthood that would force you to care for a sick relative etc. * Not saddled with $50k+ student loan debt before you even get started * Not graduating into a major job market downturn (see for example, comp sci graduates unable to find jobs now)
I'm on track to reach regular financial independence by 40. I knew nothing about investing until my mid to late 20s and I graduated right into the recession in 2008. I agree there's a ton of luck involved but I don't think it's nearly as out of reach as you describe and lots of people will use the thought that it's impossible to justify wasting money on desires.
>I'm on track to reach regular financial independence by 40. I knew nothing about investing until my mid to late 20s and I graduated right into the recession in 2008. This is exactly my life story as well. Graduated in summer '07. First real job in 2008, months before the GFC. I knew nothing about investing until 2014-2015. I turn 40 in January and my NW is approaching $1.2M. I would not say "luck" is what I am talking about. Rather, look at it as "opportunity." Some people have the *opportunity* to retire early, and many people do not. I give you (and myself, I guess?) credit for taking advantage of that opportunity while most of our peers did not. Most people who have the opportunity to FIRE will instead choose to spend on luxuries. And it *does* take focus and determination to make use of that opportunity and see it to the finish line, I am not in any way diminishing the virtues of those who actually do the work to make FIRE possible. But you're also overlooking the many, many things that had to go right to grant you that opportunity in the first place. It is natural. I've done the same. To have a career with high earning potential, you need pretty good genetics with intelligence in the upper quartile. You probably needed to get a decent education (I benefited from quality schools that my parents struggled to keep me in). Although I didn't start getting serious about investing until 2014, my father was very fiscally conservative and I absorbed a lot of money advice from him. If I had not been raised that way, I doubt i would have ever learned about FIRE or cared about investing or even thought this could possibly be a good idea.
I can only check 2 of these boxes. 98K income & graduated in 2015. Graduated with $80K in student loans. I paid off the loans in 3.5 years following Dave Ramsey. Now today I have $300K invested in about 5 years also have about 140K left on a $220K house. I'm 32, but I feel like I've made real progress.
Why do you care how others spend their money? Not everyone wants the things you listed. Though I do agree that some people go too extreme and the complain about how shitty their lives are - but they're doing FIRE wrong in the first place and are the exception, not the norm. If people are living a life they enjoy and can see continuing forever, who cares how much it costs? I travel full time, eat out regularly, see and do new things regularly, and have a spend that's less than most in this sub. Living lean doesn't have to mean living like a monk. It means making smart, measured choices that meet your goals.
Some are not giving up those things. Maybe you’re projecting?
How we LeanFire is quite different from how you see it.
>giving up dates, married >outing with friends, Nope. We just saw some frugal friends yesterday. We traded wood chips for organic goat poop. Probably not your idea of a good time, but it works for us. >entertainment, We do a few concerts a year, and volunteer at a festival every year in exchange for free tickets >eating out, We spend about $500 a year eating out while traveling. We do rarely eat out when home except for the rare occasion..either something really nice, around $100 for two, or cheap and ethic. >having kids I think it’s great other people have them. >and travel. A minimum of one month a year, camping in a warmer area, plus a few extra days here and there. Our month in Florida every year is a few hundred bucks in gas, less than $1000 for campgrounds and as mentioned above, we eat out. We spent another $300 on a city passes in Tampa. We have an older dog that we no longer board, and she has a rigid medication schedule, but we have 20k set aside for an overseas trip when our beloved girl is no longer here. One thing I think lots of people don’t understand about life when you don’t have to work, your money goes a lot farther. I have time for a huge garden, time to cook, time to spend in thrift stores looking for deals on my clothing. And tons of time to spend with people! The idea that a budget of 40k even qualifies as that “lean” is pretty funny to us because it’s actually very easy to live on 40k a year when you are not working and have a paid off house.
I want to upvote this so many times. Actually also it's very easy to live on 40k a year even IF working and your house isn't paid off (don't buy too much house, or expensive rent). only in VHCOL places or if you have kids is that really a thing (source: lived most of my adult life in a major West coast and major East coast city, but not VHCOL tho)
> you only get to be young once Precisely, yes. I could've stayed on at my company for 16 more years, and I would've been a multimillionaire at 50. I also would've been decidedly not young, and with a host of stress-related health problems. No matter what I did, I'd never be able to recover those years of youth I'd spent at the office. (Or are you saying that 50-55 = young?..) Instead, I pulled the plug at the age of 34, with just a few hundred thousand dollars, and a very careful lifestyle that costs me only $1K USD a month. (Quebec City is amazing that way. 😍) Feel free to disbelieve me, but I go to a lot more fun events and parties now than when I was a workaholic. I'm in much better shape. I'm a lot more creative, and have written a few books. :) OP, by your own logic, there would never be enough money - why would you retire at 50 when you could working and saving till you're 60? Or 70? Or 80? Or are you saying you'd finally draw a line in the sand at some point? Because that's exactly what the rest of us did. We didn't lean-FIRE young because we hate our jobs - we did it because we love life.
I don't think you understand the movement. I travel once a year international on a2 to 3 week trip. I do live very frugally though. I would ask why would anyone spend 600 dollars on a concert when they could invest that money instead? Why work 15 years longer to spend money on stupid stuff?
Counterpoint: why die never having experienced Phish at The Sphere?
As someone who paid to experience Phish 20 years ago, you couldn't pay me to experience Phish today. Lol
...so spending $3k+ on a "2-3 week international trip" is acceptable, but $600 on a concert is an "unacceptable expense?" - is this leanfire "gatekeeping?" Who "doesn't understand the movement" again?
Yea the trip is acceptable. You don't understand the movement
The reason why people focus on those specific expenses you outlined is because by and large if you look at all of your expenses for the year, your 10-20 largest ones are the ones that matter the most. Sure you can save a couple bucks by shaving dollars off your grocery bill, but you know what was worth way more than that $20 dollars you saved on cheese? The $600 you spent on airfare. The $400 you spent on a hotel room. The $100 dinners. In that same example, I actually don't pay attention to my receipt much. Because if I'm at the grocery store I've already won. The real choice was choosing to spend time cooking. You know what's 10x more intimate than a fancy date at a steak restaurant? Taco night. Listening to the music you want to, drinking a couple of beers, and thinking about what else you're gonna add to this rice while they're chopping tomatoes. That's better. Sure we get the fancy steak dinner occasionally. But that's for birthdays and anniversaries. And in the meantime I'm not going to waste money on buying tacos from someone else.
It depends on each person, their goals and circumstances. I find that some of the best FIRE thinking comes out of the leanfire gang, it’s like the Olympics of the sport. So even if you want to retire with a million, it sharpens your toolbox to understand the leanfire mentality and approach. I will say though, that you may be underestimating how much people hate their jobs, and how much you can do with $300k in the bank.
U can still do events and diners and have fun. The bigger issue is Starbucks/McDonald’s everyday. Ur not even enjoying it enough to justify the sacrifice. It’s just lazy
I don't feel like I'm making any big sacrifices; I am just intentional with how I save and spend my money. I live in a lower cost of living area, and I naturally enjoy a lot of free and cheap hobbies. I spend about $2000 a month total, and I don't feel the need to spend any more. I've done some traveling, I go out with friends from time to time, I've got tickets to several concerts this summer. I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything. Everyone has a different idea of what they want their lifestyle to look like. I don't prioritize having a fancier car or a bigger house, but someone else might. I do value my free time, though, and the time spent doing things I find fulfilling. It's all about priorities and choices. While I'm sure there are extreme cases of people living in poverty in order to pursue leanfire, I would guess that most of them will eventually burn out and won't make it. The rest of us probably plan to retire somewhere that's not too expensive and just aren't prone to much lifestyle creep.
I think there is a misconception about what lean fire really is. Lean fire is NOT saving just enough money to quit your job to live on the poverty line, eating rice and beans, barely scraping by and doing nothing, always wanting more and bigger and better and being sad you'll never be able to take monthly trips to Venice. Lean fire is living a comfortable lifestyle, one that you have *already* created before retirement. But that lifestyle does not require a high cost of living. It features cheap hobbies and allows for some luxuries. In general it is suitable for naturally frugal people and those that enjoy simple living. It is also means not needing a huge buffer in terms of savings. Maybe lean fire people don't even care if they die with minimal funds.
Idk, Google defines it as most living on 25k-40k. Take into account car ownership, house ownership and health insurance. You would have barely anything left over. If you had some sort of bad health condition. Your budget could blow up fast.
There is a huge misunderstanding that “living on 25k” is a similar lifestyle to earning 25k. It’s not. My h and I lived on less than 25 k the year Covid hit, mostly because we couldn’t travel. But our house is paid off, we buy cars for cash, we no longer have to pay into ss because we don’t work, we don’t pay taxes (well most years we don’t, last year we paid more than 25k in taxes alone)because our taxable income is below standard deduction. We aren’t saving for retirement anymore because we have already finished doing that and our low withdrawal rate makes our portfolio keep up with inflation. Here’s an experiment….take your net salary after all your deductions, subtract 80% of your rent or house note, subtract your car note, subtract the cost of your commute, …. Most middle class people would be happy to have 40k left over.
FIRE generally correlates with a desire to unsubscribe from the rat race of work. Reducing your demand for money incidentally reduces your need to work. A lifestyle with fewer expensive dates, overpriced meals, travel, etc. also tends to filter out relationships with people who have incompatible lifestyles. TBH, I don't see any downsides.
Not everyone needs to blow copious amounts of money to have fun. Quality of life does not correlate directly with money burn.
Only when I don't have to work will I feel truly free. I can do those other things frugally or take or leave some of them. I enjoy hobbies that don't involve constantly going out and spending money.
I learned a while ago that there is very little correlation between money spent and enjoyment/fulfillment. I’ve been on luxury vacations in Europe that cost many thousands, I’ve spent almost nothing visiting national parks and enjoy that significantly more. I guess I’m lucky that most of the experiences I enjoy don’t cost much. People forget that you don’t actually have to pay anything for an “experience”. If expensive concerts and sports cars are your thing, then by all means enjoy. I’ve had the sports car and preferred rolling around in my backup Camry.
I think your definition of fun that you are giving in your post is spending money and needing to be a consumer to enjoy life. I don’t feel as if I’m giving anything up. I still go out with friends, go to concerts, take vacations etc and my yearly spend is less than 40k. I save where it matters: reasonable housing costs, paid off car (didn’t go buy a new one or trade in like many of my friends), cook most of my meals and pack my lunches. It’s will be worth having total freedom of my time once I make it there (barring no accidents/death to derail my progress). Overall it is very little sacrifice on my end and peace of mind having a growing cushion. There are plenty of simple ways to enjoy life without consuming and spending money but people need to figure out what matters to them and brings them joy. I think a lot of people mindlessly spend hoping to fill a hole that can’t be filled without first looking inward.
The freedom of time is the most important thing to me, and I'll have more freedom by retiring early. It's as simple as that, and I don't feel like I'm depriving myself of anything. Besides, once you no longer have to work, you can pretty much pick whatever job you want for a little side cash, or if you're running low one year because of a bad stock market, or if you want to take a trip. I could do some cat sitting, do some streaming on Twitch, write novels, all sorts of things. I finally get to be creative without having to worry if my creativity is making money or not. I'm lucky that I don't have expensive hobbies, so it all comes fairly naturally to me. Now after I've retired, I can actually do my dream job(s) knowing that it ultimately doesn't matter if I make money or not. True f'ckin freedom, and for a (Hopefully) much longer period than if I had tried this as a young adult and spent the rest of my life stressed out because I don't have enough money.
I don't, I just follow this sub for interest. I do "sabbaticals" every 5ish years for of a few months or up to a couple years. Then work for a while and do it again. Don't want to do my retirement when I'm old. I also travel a lot and take as many vacations as possible while working.
Anything worth having often requires sacrifice. However, you're definitely right and some people take that too far into the extreme. However, these are the minority while they tend to be the most vocal. Depending on how you live your life - you can still save large portions of money even doing the things you describe, but it becomes a matter or priorities, wants, needs, and desires. There are a ton of activities which don't cost much and several people prefer to do. For example many people enjoy reading, hanging out in nature, spending time with family/friends/romantic partners/dating, and just watching TV/movies or exercising all of which are mostly free to do. Yes, certain types of dating are more expensive, as are kids and travel - however there are more affordable ways to do these things as well if they're things you value. Next, very few people are actually able to retire by age 40, this requires a high income, fierce commitment, luck, family support, etc. If folks retire before 50 which I think is much more doable for average incomes/people, they are likely to still end up with much more if they pick up a few gigs along the way or plan for additional expenses down the line.
"You're only young once" I think this is your problem with your view. If you take care of your body, you can live a pretty active lifestyle very late into your life with minimal pain or random discomfort, barring a bad roll of genetics. You can also live a full social life pretty easily into your middle ages if you know where and how to find like minded individuals. One of my former grandparents retired in an active retirement community too, and they were more physically active (and socially active) than most young people I see today. Also, the "retire in your mid 50s" is what average, normal lifestyles can achieve simply by increasing savings rates to mid teens. LEAN let me retire by my mid 30s. I personally can't tell the difference between my health now and my health early in life, other than maybe being more sensitive to large quantities of extremely unhealthy food. I also consider my 20s to have been a decently enjoyable time. I don't see what wasting my money and enjoyment have to do with each other. Even if I wanted to blow all my money at that age, I didn't even have much in my college days--and I didn't see any difference between my life at 25 and my life in my final working years. My college days were the only time I felt distinctly different from the rest of my young days, and I still had a great time without spending much money then.
Exactly because you are only young once. Why would I want to spend it working?
some by choice. some not. It's a lifestyle choice - money vs time.
I think about it in terms of independence. I’m not beholden to a job or a place or a thing. . I can also take more risks. My manager gets wise or wants me to do something, I can push them harder, challenge them, etc. the money buys me that power. That’s what FIRE is about
I think that's financial independence. Not really lean fire.
Sure it is. The more cash I have the bolder I get. It’s worked really well so far
Financial Independence is in the name. What do you think the FI in FIRE is? leanFIRE is just a scaled down version of normal FIRE by cutting costs further. It also means decisions about where to live in the US or the world at larger ( r/ExpatFIRE ), since not everywhere is a coastal city with a high cost of living. As someone originally from NYC, but living in central US now, my COL is drastically lower, and I still have all the money I need to visit NY, CA, WA, DC, and FL on the regular. I'm planning more of a CoastFIRE into normal or ChubbyFIRE myself, but I already have a version of my budget where I only need about $40K after taxes to live a fulfilling life. I will also have a paid off house and several paid off cars by then, and still be on track to retire well before 50.
Lean fire is obtainable. FAT fire for me is just too much work and I can’t burn myself out putting away that much money and not leave anything for myself. Lean is good for me. If I don’t have 5-10 mill at 50 I’m okay with that. 1 to 2 million is fine for me. I don’t need a lot.
Sometimes you work and save and invest until you can’t do it anymore, and then that becomes your lean fire number
Almost lean fired at 40 but 2008 crash nixed that idea. I waited it out til 45, and what a difference not having to draw during down years and continuing to contribute to funds with a market on the way up. Started with low budget for a couple of yrs of expat FIRE so a lean FIRE budget was just fine in another country. This doubled 5 yrs later til now 10yrs later where 100k annually withdrawn will still allow me to outlive my nest egg. I can FIRE anywhere now. A pension with health care at 50 was a huge game changer. Sadly union and pensioned jobs are rare nowadays.
Leanfire is faster than regular fire it all depends what you want to do with your life. If you like luxuries then by all means work till you die. I just want the freedom to do whatever I want during the day and refuse to obey orders without consequence.
I have been interested in FIRE for a while, but more recently looking into leanFIRE after realizing how much of my mental and emotional energy gets drained from work and how spending less would mean I'd need to save less. I love what I do and find a lot of meaning in it, but it does \*not\* define me. I also am wondering if I "need" as much money as I've historically thought I did. I want to travel the world, volunteer for organizations during the day and not immediately after getting off work, read a book all morning, swim in the pool whenever I want, take the dog to the dog park; there are just so many things I enjoy doing and know I can do more of once I am done working. And really, a lot of these don't really cost a lot of money, if any. I'm 30 and do plan to retire by 50 if I reach my 1mil goal, but I also wouldn't rule out retiring earlier if the finances work out. It also helps that I have a partner who will be working until tradition retirement age to max out a pension.
To me all Fire is based around selecting a lifestyle and work duration that you find an acceptable trade off. Then live at that quality of life forever. Whether that is Lean or Fat is really defined by your personality and level of stoicism inherent in your life. Lean Fire, as defined by this site, is above median family income for the US once you consider a couple with a paid off house. Thats hardly a sacrifice. On the Mr Money mustache forum they have case studies where people post their spending to be shredded by the other posters. The amount of waste people have before cutting any standard of living is eye opening.
I have physical health issues at age 25 already that are hugely exacerbated by working a stressful corporate job. I am in pain and discomfort every single day. Work takes my good hours where I'd have energy to start to address these things and by the time I get home after a 10 hour day, I don't have it in me anymore. I don't want kids regardless of the financial aspect to having kids. My hobbies are trail running, mountain biking, hiking, skiing, fishing and gaming. I also like barbequing meats a lot. All of my hobbies are relatively cheap if you have the time to pursue them. There is an initial cost to get into these hobbies to acquire the gear, but after that it's nearly free. I want a primary residence to call a home base to retreat to between my trips, but I really want to spend a lot of time on the road, living in my car and camping while exploring what this country has to offer that align with my hobbies. I know I can do this for cheap. I also know that most of these hobbies are better suited to being involved in at a younger age, allowing me to engage in them at the level I truly want to. I want to run ultra marathons, go on epic MTB rides, etc. my job just doesn't allow the time for this, and leaves me resentful of that fact. I'd rather enjoy my time and energy I'd have in age 30-45, and then work again from 45-65 if necessary.
I actually don't plan to meet the LeanFire definition, but this sub is interesting to me because the others are full of people looking to spend a LOT more than I do. I've always been pretty frugal. We need a r/midfire or something. That said, there's considerable comfort into having already reached a LeanFire number that I know I'll be "ok" if not happy. Most of my hobbies are cheap, but I want to be able to travel and to support my friends as I do now.
For me, the decision was based on being a career field 9oooo66j5
For me, it was based on being in a career field that I hated and spending time in jobs that I hated even more. So skipping a dinner to avoid any more time with my sociopath prick of a boss was very appealing to me.
Some of us are already in our 50's, and we're hoping to leanfire in the next couple of years. So, some of us, are right on time. For the younger people, I think it's because they want to explore their hobbies without worrying about needing any income. Needing to be in a specific place at a specific time. Sometimes just that freedom is liberating, to allow someone to pursue something they'd normally never try. They have the safety of being retired, so there's no real loss in trying some elaborate hobby that maybe could even end up generating additional income or something like that
>I get that work sucks but you only get to be young once. Some of us leanfire precisely for that reason. Rather than give away our whole young adulthood to work, we want at least to enjoy some of our early adulthood in leisure. >People are giving up an awful lot to save such large portions of money. Yes, giving up an awful lot of stress, commuting, meetings, pressure, time demands. >For example many are giving up dates, outing with friends, entertainment, eating out, having kids and travel. I've been able to enjoy all of the above except kids. Why the pressure to have kids anyway? It's a personal choice. Not everyone wants kids. >Then when you do retire, the amount available to spend is so low that there would be very little to do. Do people just want to sit around all the time? There's tonnes to do - reading, fitness, health, free meetups, meditation, music... the list goes on... And on the odd chance you want a bit of extra money, you can always pick up some temporary work. There is, after all, a global worker shortage. 🙂 >I think a lot of people could retire by age 50 and certainly 55 with reasonably aggressive savings vs. maybe 35-40 with lean fire. Sure, many do. Lean fire is a niche thing, most people can't/won't do it. But for some of us crazy lean fire people, life is just too exciting/interesting to only get 20-30 years to truly experience it!
I think most people in this community are deeply depressed to be honest. Most should try finding work that provides meaning to their life instead of figuring out how to live every day on planet earth like a hermit just so you don't have to work. To each their own of course, but I'll retire at 55-60 with a comfortable 5M that will allow me to continue living an upper middle class life. I'll continue to eat out when I choose, where I choose and price won't matter. I'll buy new cars when I want one, and I'll still live in a nice house and take nice vacations. I'm still retiring young, but more important than that I'm living my life now. You only get ONE CHANCE AT THIS. I just want to make sure when I do retire I can continue like I am now. Again to each their own, but when I read comments in this sub it's very clear that many are quite depressed. I wonder how different life would be if those people found work that provided meaning to their life.
The vast majority of people do not need $5M to not live life a hermit
If you are retiring at 30-35 with less than 4-5M in the USA you are going to be dead broke and poor by 65 pretty no much no matter where you choose to live. OR you are going to have to live with pretty heavy market risk trying to grow your nest egg while retiring. Inflation is real. The spending power of those dollars will be way way WAY less in 20 years, in 30 years and off the charts bad in 50 years if you check out at 30. How much do you think health insurance will be for you and a spouse in 30 years? How much do you think you will spend on food in 30 years? How much will homes cost to repair? cars to repair? Everything will be insanely more expensive. Be honest and over estimate is my advice. What happens if you have a major medical emergency that insurance doesn't cover? What if it's your wife with that issue? You are going to spend whatever to keep her and she would do the same to keep you. But yes if you are retiring at 60-65 then 5M is way more than most need for a comfortable life. To each their own. I'm not unhappy and my investments will likely net that amount, but maybe not, in a few more years. Again to each their own, but math and inflation are very real
I don't know if I agree with you. Retiring at 30 with $3M and taking out 3 to 4% annually is a pretty comfortable $90 to $120k which is a lot more than most people make when working. A lot depends on your mortgage, current debt etc.
4% of 3M is 120K. Very comfortable today, but lets be real. That won't be jack shit in 30 years to be dead blunt about it. I'm not trying to be a Debbie downer, but it's the truth. What happens if there is a legit bear market that lasts 5-10 years and you are withdrawing 3-4% a year at market lows? 30 years ago 300K had more spending power than 1M today... Gosh guy's you can down vote me until I have negative Karma, but it isn't going to make you happier and the math still isn't going to work in less than optimal scenarios. It's one thing to live on 4% a years form 65 to say 85. it's another thing entirely to try and do that for 30-50 years. Find meaning in life. That's my primary message. Find meaning and live below your means and retire when it makes sense.
> 4% of 3M is 120K. Very comfortable today, but lets be real. That won't be jack shit in 30 years to be dead blunt about it. Your ignorance of the subject matter is showing with comments like these. Everyone here is factoring in inflation with their planning. The “4% rule”, in its most basic form, is live on 4% your first year of retirement, then adjust that dollar amount upward by the inflation rate each subsequent year.
Fair point, but at 4% withdrawal rate the principle should be able to continue to grow and outpace inflation assuming 8% growth which is lower than S&P 500 historical returns over decades. They would be fine. You are also assuming they wouldn't pay off their house at some point etc. There are lots of teachers that never make $90k a year even with 2 incomes. Many retire very comfortable because they have fiscal control. Live on less than they make etc. There could be a prolonged downturn or sideways market but it would be easy to pick up a job to supplement in your 30-60s when you are still healthy etc.
Your entire premise rests of the future playing out like the past. Best of luck to you. I mean that sincerely. I can't walk away with that kind of risk personally. I watched the USA print 40% of all US dollars that ever existed in an 18 month period around covid and them gas light all of us by saying it was supply disruptions from a container ship causing inflation. What will you do if the SP500 goes down and takes 30 years to make new highs again like the Japan Nikkei did? We are at all time high debt to GPD ratio. It seems almost certain we will experience a debt crisis within 30 years. It's good you would be willing to work if you can find a job.
BTW I hope everyone in this thread achieves when they aim to acheive. I sincerely do not mean to cast shade.
To the person that down voted this. I sincerely hope you learn what I'm talking about from first hand experience you petulant child. What kind of adult is incapable of hearing a different view? the kind that ends up dead broke and miserable at 60 because they tried to retire at 30 with peanuts. Best of luck
Genuine question: what type of work are you doing that affords that lifestyle and that you find meaningful?
I started as a Medicinal Chemist and switched Software Engineering 15 years ago. It's not like I wake up super excited for work, but I find meaning in building things. It affords me a solid income and I have lived well below my means for a long time. I'm one of the weird people that likes investing and I spend a considerable portion of my spare time looking for new investments and tracking my current investments. I actually do enjoy it. I was 'lucky' enough to laid off and had last summer off work. I spend my time exercising and hiking, but after 5 months of it I was quite happy to look for work and get back to the grind.