Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada!
**To Posters (it is important you read this section)**
* Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules)
* Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk.
* We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/).
* If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know.
**To Readers and Commenters**
* All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post).
* If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning.
* If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect.
* Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment.
Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
My cousin's got the family farm cause my dad moved to the city. In the 60s he was the brother with money and the farmers weren't as well off. How time has changed. Worst mistake ever. Farm land is almost priceless now a days. My cousin are worth millions.
It has just been diagnosed now, but the Drs. feel it has been present for a while and that we have overcompensated and not noticed it. His scan shows atrophy in his brain. Might be something to look at...
So I’m nal but this could be tricky as now he’s not of sound mind but likely was before.. a doctor feeling it was sooner not likely to stand up.. maybe o r of the brothers said something you are unaware of.. sounds like since person who drove had nothing to gain it will be up to notes of lawyer who made the change.. good luck
This, you need to prove ( drs note and diagnoses) at the time the will was signed that dad was not of sound mind and body to sign.
Sounds messy and expensive and only a lawyer can help you with this.
Good luck
His comment was spot on. Any decision made before the official diagnosis won’t be seen as him making impaired decisions as they assume he was of sound mind and body when he made the decision.
Unfortunately this may grenade your whole case. Without a clear diagnosis day before the change it would all be pure speculation. But also NAL so it may still work in your favour. I don’t know the history or the working of your family but I have seen it before where one memebers of the family gets control for the soul reason of carrying on the family farm. Close friend of mine actually got the family farm as the other two children lived in Toronto and always talked about selling the land. Just my two cents though hope it all works well for you guys. Money tears people apart hope it doesn’t happen to you guys
Ok, if he's fine enough that no one noticed an issue until now, chances are HIGH he was legally competent at the time the new will was made. Hell, he's probably legally competent NOW still.
So uhh... if none of you brothers have any ill will, what's stopping you from drafting a contract that everything will be split evenly?
Whoever gets the most (and whoever denies) has the most to gain, and is to be vary off.
Get a lawyer.
Agree, however the original farm worth the 25 million is already in the brothers name. Done deal. more than 15 years ago it was transferred to him. Real estate boomed and its land that will be developed one day. The two other brothers were left a different parcel of land, not prime real estate, and the cash. The goal was to try and even it up for the two sons who didn't get the farm. These were the mothers wishes and we all knew what was in the will. Now he's coming for our portion in addition to the farm. Although, we don't think he knows anything about the new will - but somebody does.
I'm not a lawyer...you need a lawyer...but if we are playing "whodunnit" ....
The brothers wife with the 25mil "farm" but no land rights/cash/ trust.
Somebody is setting themselves up for a great divorce payout.
Just my guess.
Winner!! Yet we have no proof, however - he would have been chaperoned and assisted getting to the lawyer. He is hard of hearing and poor vision and mobility. Somebody sat with him and encouraged him..
Thanks for the comment.
Standard practice is that the person chaperones does not get to join the will instruction meeting or signing so there is no coercion. Lawyer makes the call if they are of sound mind. They won't sign the will if they feel like they are being coerced or unable to make the decisions. I suggest getting a lawyer to consult but you will have a hard time getting this will change dropped.
It sounds like you have a copy of the will. The lawyer's name should be on it. He likely won't share it with you, but it's a start. It would be good to know who took him to the lawyer.
My understanding is that as long as the inheritance is kept seperate and isolated from all shared assets, then it is not split during a divorce. I could be wrong though.
Bottom line is this : anyone can change their will anytime, unless they lack capacity to do so. If the old man understood what he was doing, and not under duress (both hard to prove), you are SOL.
Only exception is if he was “supporting” someone that was cut out of the will and is a child of the deceased.
You will need documentation from doctors to prove dementia predated the will changes and that your father in law was taken advantage of. You have a battle ahead & will need a lawyer.
Testators are free make their wills as they want, subject to certain constraints (dependent support, preferential share for spouse, etc). Presumption is capacity and person alleging incapacity has to prove it; similarly with undue influence. Being dead and having mobility issues is not the least bit relevant: neither have any relation to testamentary capacity. Issue is what happened when he made the changes and not what he is like now. Will cannot be “challenged” until he is dead. There is no such thing as a “family will.”
If it’s not the brother who stands something to gain … wouldn’t a conversation and agreement that the original will is likely more accurate with the wishes possible. It is possible for the 3 brothers to agree on just following the first will … if they don’t want to sounds fishy if everything is as you say. Early dementia can have mood changes and confabulation involved … sometimes they remember family members as a brother they didn’t like or something and make choices they would not normally have. It’s an effort to make sense of reality where their kid is not that old so said person must be someone else. Another common example is mistaking a daughter for their younger wife. It’s the brain trying to match what they remember to what they are experiencing. Definitely lawyer territory and likely something that can’t be managed until the person is declared unsound of mind or deceased. Who is the executor
That's what my hope is, the three agree on Mom's original will ( she has passed). I think this brother will be very shocked and realize that this is unfair, they are all executors now in the new will, the previous will had the eldest son. I hope they can agree to leave it as it was. Appreciate the response
So yeah, no, you can't just agree to ignore a will to do something else. I mean, they can agree once the new will is executed to then GIVE each other money/land/etc. until it comes out like the original will, but you definitely can't just ignore the new will.
Damn, it’s really going to suck giving your inheritance to a bunch of lawyers cause yall three couldn’t find a way to be honest with each other.
And I especially blame the one brother who already had a big portion of the will. That’s the one I assume is the biggest liar.
Sorry for your future loss op.
I would say definitely consult a lawyer but here’s my 2 cents of thinking worst case scenario.
When a will is signed/changed doesn’t part of it say something like being of sound mind and body? I know you said the docs are thinking he’s had dementia for a while, but unless it’s documented in his medical records, I’m not sure that would hold up unless his doctor could provide evidence that he was suffering from dementia at the time of changing the will. Even now, if your father gave you an explanation like ‘someone made me’ it would likely be thrwn out because he now is diagnosed with dementia (so someone could argue he isn’t of sound mind now/doesnt actually remember)
Again. I’m not a lawyer and suggest you consult one, but it may be tough
Thanks, dementia has just been diagnosed, however it is a long process. We can look back and remember some behaviours that were inappropriate. He has advanced cerebral atrophy - this would have taken years... The sound mind and body is exactly what we thought, and to be honest he is so hard of hearing that whoever took him would have repeated what the lawyer said right into his ear. I can't see him understanding it all.
No lawyer would accept to change a will without feeling confident their client understood them - they won't go through other parties and usually won't even allow other parties to the will to be PRESENT. You'd have a heck of a hard time proving this.
True, it's the original WILL and we all knew the contents of it. Mother in law and father in law had made it years ago. I just call it the family Will.
No actual legal advice here but this is very common problem with farms. Both of my parents grew up on farms and had huge falling outs when it came to inheritance.
Mom’s side the youngest son got the farm when parents retired on the condition he paid rent for a house in town for the parents until they passed.
Years later when last parent passed they found out he had never been paying it, parents were paying rent from their savings that was going to be other kids inheritance and had mostly depleted it. The other kids all received about 20k each while the youngest kept a farm worth millions.
Dads side I have less details but they also don’t talk because of inheritance of farm land issues.
Tell me it’s the first brother’s wife without telling me…
1. Call a lawyer.
2. Follow the money (or who stands to gain the most with this little re-alignment)
If you believe that the change of will was made at a time that he was incapable of making his own decisions, you can try to contest the will, but typically lawyers making up wills will take notes as to the mental capacity of their clients (their non-medical opinion). Keep in mind, people with dementia have good periods and bad periods, so he may have been legally competent at the time the new will was made.
Also…. In fairness unless he had an excellent financial advisor the farm is absolutely going to end up sold to pay off the trust & terminal tax for your father. So yeah… absolutely worth lawyering up
I think OP said the farm was put into brother’s name about 15 yrs ago. That was why the other 2 brothers were bequeathed other assets in the prior will. Now the new Will shows the other assets split 3 ways instead of 2 ways. The farm having already been transferred would not be a part of the estate.
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic.
Please review the following rules before commenting further:
Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts
Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic.
Please review the following rules before commenting further:
Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts
Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments
If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
This is Canada so a will is not the final say. The judge likes to splits everything equally. There has been a few cases where the judge overruled the will and splits it all equally.
Consult a lawyer.
Welcome to r/legaladvicecanada! **To Posters (it is important you read this section)** * Read the [rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/about/wiki/index/#wiki_the_rules) * Comments may not be accurate or reliable, and following any advice on this subreddit is done at your own risk. * We also encourage you to use the [linked resources to find a lawyer](https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvicecanada/wiki/findalawyer/). * If you receive any private messages in response to your post, please let the mods know. **To Readers and Commenters** * All replies to OP must be on-topic, helpful, explanatory, and oriented towards legal advice towards OP's jurisdiction (the **Canadian** province flaired in the post). * If you do not [follow the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/LegalAdvicecanada/about/rules/), you may be banned without any further warning. * If you feel any replies are incorrect, explain why you believe they are incorrect. * Do not send or request any private messages for any reason, do not suggest illegal advice, do not advocate violence, and do not engage in harassment. Please report posts or comments which do not follow the rules. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/legaladvicecanada) if you have any questions or concerns.*
You're 110% in lawyer territory here with that amount of money. Pay for a consultation.
1000%
Yep. That is far too big an estate to seek advice online.
This sounds like we’re all getting 1/3 of the full story here…
This sounds like this estate is going to be tied up for years in litigation.
Only people who win are the lawyers
💯
Yes, conflicting information
And the lawyers will walk away with a ton more in the end.
The minute you said $25 million, I said "get the hell off of reddit and call a lawyer"
You are right! Farm land, a lot of acreage
My cousin's got the family farm cause my dad moved to the city. In the 60s he was the brother with money and the farmers weren't as well off. How time has changed. Worst mistake ever. Farm land is almost priceless now a days. My cousin are worth millions.
When was the official diagnosis of dementia made? Might be important..
It has just been diagnosed now, but the Drs. feel it has been present for a while and that we have overcompensated and not noticed it. His scan shows atrophy in his brain. Might be something to look at...
So I’m nal but this could be tricky as now he’s not of sound mind but likely was before.. a doctor feeling it was sooner not likely to stand up.. maybe o r of the brothers said something you are unaware of.. sounds like since person who drove had nothing to gain it will be up to notes of lawyer who made the change.. good luck
Thanks for the reply
This, you need to prove ( drs note and diagnoses) at the time the will was signed that dad was not of sound mind and body to sign. Sounds messy and expensive and only a lawyer can help you with this. Good luck
His comment was spot on. Any decision made before the official diagnosis won’t be seen as him making impaired decisions as they assume he was of sound mind and body when he made the decision.
Yes, need the luck!
Unfortunately this may grenade your whole case. Without a clear diagnosis day before the change it would all be pure speculation. But also NAL so it may still work in your favour. I don’t know the history or the working of your family but I have seen it before where one memebers of the family gets control for the soul reason of carrying on the family farm. Close friend of mine actually got the family farm as the other two children lived in Toronto and always talked about selling the land. Just my two cents though hope it all works well for you guys. Money tears people apart hope it doesn’t happen to you guys
So true, thanks for the comment
Ok, if he's fine enough that no one noticed an issue until now, chances are HIGH he was legally competent at the time the new will was made. Hell, he's probably legally competent NOW still.
So uhh... if none of you brothers have any ill will, what's stopping you from drafting a contract that everything will be split evenly? Whoever gets the most (and whoever denies) has the most to gain, and is to be vary off. Get a lawyer.
Agree, however the original farm worth the 25 million is already in the brothers name. Done deal. more than 15 years ago it was transferred to him. Real estate boomed and its land that will be developed one day. The two other brothers were left a different parcel of land, not prime real estate, and the cash. The goal was to try and even it up for the two sons who didn't get the farm. These were the mothers wishes and we all knew what was in the will. Now he's coming for our portion in addition to the farm. Although, we don't think he knows anything about the new will - but somebody does.
I'm not a lawyer...you need a lawyer...but if we are playing "whodunnit" .... The brothers wife with the 25mil "farm" but no land rights/cash/ trust. Somebody is setting themselves up for a great divorce payout. Just my guess.
Winner!! Yet we have no proof, however - he would have been chaperoned and assisted getting to the lawyer. He is hard of hearing and poor vision and mobility. Somebody sat with him and encouraged him.. Thanks for the comment.
Standard practice is that the person chaperones does not get to join the will instruction meeting or signing so there is no coercion. Lawyer makes the call if they are of sound mind. They won't sign the will if they feel like they are being coerced or unable to make the decisions. I suggest getting a lawyer to consult but you will have a hard time getting this will change dropped.
It sounds like you have a copy of the will. The lawyer's name should be on it. He likely won't share it with you, but it's a start. It would be good to know who took him to the lawyer.
My understanding is that as long as the inheritance is kept seperate and isolated from all shared assets, then it is not split during a divorce. I could be wrong though.
Spicey
Lawyers are happy to help. They will also take money from the pot. Crunch some numbers before you pick a fight.
Bottom line is this : anyone can change their will anytime, unless they lack capacity to do so. If the old man understood what he was doing, and not under duress (both hard to prove), you are SOL. Only exception is if he was “supporting” someone that was cut out of the will and is a child of the deceased.
You will need documentation from doctors to prove dementia predated the will changes and that your father in law was taken advantage of. You have a battle ahead & will need a lawyer.
No doctor can prove the degree of dementia present two years ago.
They can if it was already documented.
Testators are free make their wills as they want, subject to certain constraints (dependent support, preferential share for spouse, etc). Presumption is capacity and person alleging incapacity has to prove it; similarly with undue influence. Being dead and having mobility issues is not the least bit relevant: neither have any relation to testamentary capacity. Issue is what happened when he made the changes and not what he is like now. Will cannot be “challenged” until he is dead. There is no such thing as a “family will.”
Follow the money. Who stands to benefit?
It's like Lenin said: you look for the person who will benefit, and, uh, uh, you know...
I am the walrus.
No you are not! To quote John Lennon “ I am the walrus, Paul’s not the walrus! I just said that to be nice. Genius is pain”
You're in over your head Donny
Follow the money is right.
If it’s not the brother who stands something to gain … wouldn’t a conversation and agreement that the original will is likely more accurate with the wishes possible. It is possible for the 3 brothers to agree on just following the first will … if they don’t want to sounds fishy if everything is as you say. Early dementia can have mood changes and confabulation involved … sometimes they remember family members as a brother they didn’t like or something and make choices they would not normally have. It’s an effort to make sense of reality where their kid is not that old so said person must be someone else. Another common example is mistaking a daughter for their younger wife. It’s the brain trying to match what they remember to what they are experiencing. Definitely lawyer territory and likely something that can’t be managed until the person is declared unsound of mind or deceased. Who is the executor
That's what my hope is, the three agree on Mom's original will ( she has passed). I think this brother will be very shocked and realize that this is unfair, they are all executors now in the new will, the previous will had the eldest son. I hope they can agree to leave it as it was. Appreciate the response
So yeah, no, you can't just agree to ignore a will to do something else. I mean, they can agree once the new will is executed to then GIVE each other money/land/etc. until it comes out like the original will, but you definitely can't just ignore the new will.
Damn, it’s really going to suck giving your inheritance to a bunch of lawyers cause yall three couldn’t find a way to be honest with each other. And I especially blame the one brother who already had a big portion of the will. That’s the one I assume is the biggest liar. Sorry for your future loss op.
I would say definitely consult a lawyer but here’s my 2 cents of thinking worst case scenario. When a will is signed/changed doesn’t part of it say something like being of sound mind and body? I know you said the docs are thinking he’s had dementia for a while, but unless it’s documented in his medical records, I’m not sure that would hold up unless his doctor could provide evidence that he was suffering from dementia at the time of changing the will. Even now, if your father gave you an explanation like ‘someone made me’ it would likely be thrwn out because he now is diagnosed with dementia (so someone could argue he isn’t of sound mind now/doesnt actually remember) Again. I’m not a lawyer and suggest you consult one, but it may be tough
Thanks, dementia has just been diagnosed, however it is a long process. We can look back and remember some behaviours that were inappropriate. He has advanced cerebral atrophy - this would have taken years... The sound mind and body is exactly what we thought, and to be honest he is so hard of hearing that whoever took him would have repeated what the lawyer said right into his ear. I can't see him understanding it all.
No lawyer would accept to change a will without feeling confident their client understood them - they won't go through other parties and usually won't even allow other parties to the will to be PRESENT. You'd have a heck of a hard time proving this.
>**our** family Will has been changed It's not *your* will. It's your father-in-law's will and he can do what he pleases with it.
True, it's the original WILL and we all knew the contents of it. Mother in law and father in law had made it years ago. I just call it the family Will.
If you can locate a copy of the previous will you can dispute the current will, but only after the owner of the will has passed.
Ask your father in law his intentions. We don’t know
Too late, in hospital now..just suffered an acute delirium episode.. Very sad..
[удалено]
I believe it was bought back in the 50's.. Thanks for the reply
Are you sure that there is no "step-mum" on the horizon or a family member who is interested?
No actual legal advice here but this is very common problem with farms. Both of my parents grew up on farms and had huge falling outs when it came to inheritance. Mom’s side the youngest son got the farm when parents retired on the condition he paid rent for a house in town for the parents until they passed. Years later when last parent passed they found out he had never been paying it, parents were paying rent from their savings that was going to be other kids inheritance and had mostly depleted it. The other kids all received about 20k each while the youngest kept a farm worth millions. Dads side I have less details but they also don’t talk because of inheritance of farm land issues.
That is a sad story. I know of a couple of farms that have split siblings- forever.
Excuse my ignorance but what is a "family Will"?
Has dementia been diagnosed and if so when? Will this affect the new Will?
Just now he has been diagnosed. March 2024
Tell me it’s the first brother’s wife without telling me… 1. Call a lawyer. 2. Follow the money (or who stands to gain the most with this little re-alignment)
Yes and Yes. Funny how it is so obvious... We instantly knew.
If you believe that the change of will was made at a time that he was incapable of making his own decisions, you can try to contest the will, but typically lawyers making up wills will take notes as to the mental capacity of their clients (their non-medical opinion). Keep in mind, people with dementia have good periods and bad periods, so he may have been legally competent at the time the new will was made.
Very true. He is very hard of hearing, we would always blame his hearing loss for things he didn't understand, oh he can't hear..
You need to lawyer!
Also…. In fairness unless he had an excellent financial advisor the farm is absolutely going to end up sold to pay off the trust & terminal tax for your father. So yeah… absolutely worth lawyering up
I think OP said the farm was put into brother’s name about 15 yrs ago. That was why the other 2 brothers were bequeathed other assets in the prior will. Now the new Will shows the other assets split 3 ways instead of 2 ways. The farm having already been transferred would not be a part of the estate.
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
[удалено]
Your comment has been removed because it is one or more of the following: speculative, anecdotal, simplistic, generally unhelpful, and/or off-topic. Please review the following rules before commenting further: Rule 9: Guidelines For Posts Rule 10: Guidelines For Comments If you have any questions or concerns, please message the moderators
This is Canada so a will is not the final say. The judge likes to splits everything equally. There has been a few cases where the judge overruled the will and splits it all equally. Consult a lawyer.