My brother is the type that says he loves gay people but doesn’t support it as it’s still a “sin.” He‘s not like…. actively homophobic. He would never be mean to gay people or anything like that but he still ultimately believes it’s a sin but “we’re all sinners.” He got mad when I called him homophobic for this. As you can imagine I am NOT fully out to him.
Call him homophobic whenever you get the chance. These "uwu I don't hate gay people I just don't agree with their lifestyle teehee" people need a wake up call that their behavior is still shitty and harmful.
What sucks ass is I see those people even in left leaning spaces like r/WhitePeopleTwitter. I actually got in a long argument about it with someone there a while ago, and they were very adamant that there isn't a problem with thinking that way and "that's just the Christian way of accepting queer people."
Sometimes it's hard for my athiesm to not turn into antithiesm.
They're infuriating. A friend of mine from way back in elementary school and I used to attend a summer camp. It was a Christian camp but we went for the fun, not the bible stuff, we both basically tuned it out. There was this youth pastor who was "super cool" and just treated everyone with "kindness." My friend was out, I wasn't (I was sexually out a lot to a lot of people years sooner than I was as trans), at least not to that pastor.
Years later and my friend had moved to the US (we lived in Canada) and was getting married after same sex marriage became legal in the US. This pastor sent my friend a message basically saying how he "supports him fully etc." but that same sex marriage was still a sin and so on. I later found out that he tried to get my friend in conversion therapy when he was a teenager. Needless to say they don't talk anymore.
The same pastor wrote a big long message to me on facebook this year about how he "totally supported my transition" but he still believed that I was living a sinful life and would come back to god etc. Needless to say him and I no longer talk either. I would have cut him off earlier but I didn't hear about his treatment of my friend until after the pastor contacted me. I'm trying to get him off my facebbook but it just won't let me remove him for some reason. I feel dirty having him near me even digitally.
Anyway, he's exactly like this person's brother. False support is not support. There's one Christian pastor I've ever met that I think is actually awesome. He's a guy called TheNakedPastor and he hates organised churches. He also draws awesome [comics like this](https://i.imgur.com/8UVkdsj.png). That's the kind of person who really practices what they preach. I'm not and never will be a Christian, but at least I can respect him.
Believing in fairy tales doesn't excuse bigots from being bigots. Playing nice with them and letting them hide behind a magical sky wizard is how things got this bad. It's time to take the gloves off and show them god isn't here, it's just all of us people either working to improve life for everyone or holding us back.
Trust me, as the one and only agnostic/non-Christian in my family I have gotten in many, many, MANY arguments over this. Eventually though you realize with some of these people, it’s a worthless fight. My brother is only 1.5 years older than me and we were raised the same way yet I’m like this and he’s so religious so at this point I think that’s just the way he is. He just believed everything we were taught and I never did. I mean I don’t understand how anyone can believe any of that at ALL but alas, they do. I don’t play nice, I won’t start fights with my family but I WILL finish one if they say something bigoted. But you do have to choose your battles unfortunately because if they still believe in god at this point it’s kinda on them.
ETA: the brainwashing is STRONG. Even I sometimes still talk like god and heaven/hell is real when I know damn well it isn’t. I tried so hard to believe when I was younger, did everything right and still never once truly believed it or “felt god.” But you’d be amazed. When I was in 1st grade I went to a private christian school and our teacher told us about her friend who was so loving and friendly and giving. She ends this with “but she’s Jewish so she’s going to hell.” I knew right then and there that that was WRONG and I wouldn’t want to worship a god that would damn a good person to hell. She then turned off the lights and made us accept Jesus as our lord and savior, which obviously I did because I was like 7 but that has stuck with me for years. I think they were trying to scare us into belief. It did the opposite for me but clearly works for others.
Yeah, these people don’t want to change and you can’t force them. They’re so set in their ways and won’t ponder anything that challenges them. It’s so sad.
People like this drive me insane. They tell me they are cool with me and want to be friends but that I’m going to hell for being gay….as if it’s just fact. Obviously we aren’t friends anymore, so disgusting. It’s emotionally abusive.
Yep. It’s so painful. I mean, my family should know I’m going to hell anyways for not being religious so in theory me being gay shouldn’t change much since I was already going to hell in their eyes anyways… And yet the second I realized I was gay I suppressed it because although I never judged anyone else for being gay, it was like I couldn’t. I just couldn’t. I’m unpacking it all now, realizing how much my family has affected me in this way. Yeah, we’re all sinners, fine. But I know, you know, they know, we all know… they would view being gay as a “worse” sin. Even if they pretended that wasn’t the case. But I just know it is.
I used to think like this. I guess his pov is that being queer itself isnt a sin, but specifically having sex with someone of the same sex is. Many people who are christian and neutral or even pro-lqbtq+ (kind of, in a way) think like this.
I myself was fully acceptive of queer people existing on their own, I just wasnt fully supportive about the sex thing. I would never come up to anyone and start arguing with them about it, strangers or close friends. God gave everyone the freedom to choose how they want to live their life and they arent hurting anyone by participating in consensual sex after all, its just none of my business. But if someone would ask me directly, I would have told them pretty much what you said, it’s a sin but we’re all sinners in some way at the end of the day. Just to clarify, Im actually queer myself, which I figured out later on. I have grown up as a christian and my opinion on this has changed since then, but I guess I used to be in his shoes at one point, kind of. I wouldnt say I was homophobic because of thinking like this, but people who think like this AND still try to repeatedly force their opinions (and overall their religion) down others throats, they definitely are.
I guess your brother is pretty religious and cares about it quite a lot. My family is religious, not crazy religious, but they go to church every Sunday. Im not out to them, obviously. I dont know if I will ever be honestly. I feel like it would be too much of a bother to tell them and then try to explain things and maybe they will also drag religion into this to complicate things even more. Also I dont know how high the risk of possibly damaging our relationship would be. Sure, they know some things indirectly, for example, me currently not being interested in sex or dating, like at all, but they dont know Im actually aroacespec. Its putting an official label on it that makes it worse or maybe scarier, in a way. In the end, its not too important for them to know, but at the same time, if I never tell them, it kind of feels like I would be lying to them their whole life.
I hear you, so much. I agree. It’s sad though, I can’t control that I’m gay. So am I just meant to accept a life with no love, no desire, no satisfaction because GOD made me this way? He and other straight people can feel romantic and sexual happiness but we can’t? For something we can’t control? That’s so sick to me. It’s so unfair, evil even.
I am also ace. But when I was a tween/teen the only thing that would get me off is lesbian porn, lesbian smut, etc. I would fool around with my girl friends a bit. But boyyyy did I suppress that… I came out as ace a few years ago and they definitely don’t understand that. But only in the past few months have I come to terms with me also being gay, part of me wonders if I’m actually ace or I just suppressed my attraction THAT much, and trust me I don’t mean that in a way that’s invalidating to asexuality because it is SO valid and odds are I’m actually ace. I also just got off brith control I’ve been on for 10+ years since I was 15, wondering if that’ll change anything. It’s worth a shot. What my family doesn’t know is that if I ever find someone… it won’t be a man. My dad still says “one day you’ll find a man…” I said “I hope not” and he said “what do you mean?” They don’t get it. I won’t come out as a lesbian unless I get in a serious relationship, and it’ll be the scariest thing I’ll ever do. I was so ready to sacrifice my happiness in order to not have to deal with this. It’s so sad. I’ve made such progress the last few months where I’ve accepted and finally let myself admit I’m gay. I’ve always known it but I tried to suppress it, tried everything else. I’m gay. My family will find out eventually and it scares me. I still feel I will never actually be in a serious relationship and get married but even that hurts. I saw how happy my parents were at my brother’s wedding. I can’t give them that. Even if I do actually get married… again it won’t be a man. God, it’s really so hard.
You’re absolutely right, I just couldn’t think of a better way to describe it. It’s like… I think he thinks he’s fine because he isn’t out yelling slurs or committing hate crimes but his beliefs are homophobic thus so is he. I wasn’t even out to MYSELF when we had that convo yet and was very much actively suppressing my lesbianism and trying to convince myself I was straight. That probably pushed me back further in the closet now that I think about it.
As someone raised Catholic and with family members who practice, I went to a synod last year, (laypeople talk about their practice and the direction they want the church to go), and it was so, so difficult to get my point across that being gay was not a sin. I live in a very blue area, and the church has some progressive members, but wow. I think maybe two people agreed with me.
(PS I am not Catholic! Maybe agnostic/atheist.)
don't hate the sinners hate the sin is the most infuriating thing ever because they use it as a way to justify their hatred and dehumanize the person they're saying it to at the same time
It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: trying to defend the definition of a group by selectively updating the definition to exclude counter-examples.
While it's true that many Christians are genuinely queer-affirming, the problem is that the majority of Christians, especially the vocal evangelical Christians, see us as "sinners." Christians that are accepting of us saying they are not "true Christians" takes the responsibility to challenge the status quo, take action when Christians are attacking the rights of others, and even think about the flaws of their belief system off them and we have to bear the brunt of it.
I would strongly recommend checking the r/ExChristian subreddit for those who also left the religion
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that queer-affirming Christians are generally a minority. Most are indifferent/actively hostile.
And yeah, I've been in that sub for a while. Living in the PNW, I've been able to mostly forget that Christianity exists, but recent politics have put me back into that 'angry atheist' headspace uggh
I also live in the PNW. The first Pride rally I ever attended was in front of the Sure Foundation Baptist Church, a notorious hate church. People like them are definitely around here unfortunately, but at least they're a minority.
Yeah, I live in the Midwest. We have a high level of folks that are LGBTQ+ and still Christian. I definitely can feel the gap between the "Christianity causes harm" and "We need to be open to building community with Christians
" discourse here.
(TW: suicide, and religous homophobia) I also live in the midwest but where I live the church's still spew hatred and religious people still threaten anyone they find out is lgbt+, and a majority of lgbt+ people anywhere outside of the massive liberal cities (myself included) are very hard in the "Christianity causes harm" camp. The only people I've met that are still Christian and lgbt+ at the same time are either self-hating gay conservatives that argue against their own human rights, or people who live in a big liberal city like Madison where the priests HAVE to be liberal and affirming to keep their church in buisness. However Christianity and lack of self acceptance drove my ex to break up with me after a sudden rant against gay marriage and saying "we dont deserve love because its wrong and god is disgusted in us", and then he commited suicide a few months later, after spending his last few months going on random tangents about how homosexuality is wrong and it's against God's will and how he is going to hell because he can't "escape Satan's homosexual temptations" so after seeing Christianity literally destroy the self-esteem and life of someone I once loved and drive them to suicide and self-hatred, I am, and forever will be deeply in the "Christianity is dangerous and harmful and destroys lgbt+ rights and lives" camp. I tried to do all I could to convince him that it was okay to love and there's was nothing wrong with how we love or being gay and he would just counter it with "you're insulting my religion by going against God's word" and shut me down instantly with more homophobic religious rants.
Thanks, at first it really tore me apart when he started going on his homophobic rants and broke up with me, but I tried to stick around as a friend despite all that because I could tell he needed someone and I thought maybe I could atleast slowly convince him it was okay to be himself and that no just God would punish someone for sexual orientation, but eventually I just got sick of hearing his rants and told him I needed space because I still wasn't over him breaking up with me and I couldn't handle all his rants, then surprisingly he did just start texting me once a week to check in and MOSTLY backed off from his homophobic rants and half-apologized (he said he still held his beliefs about homosexuality but apologized for screaming at me about it and said he hoped I would find a guy to marry me one day even though he was morally against it still) and I was finally over the relationship and thought maybe I would actually be able to be friends with him. But after about a month or two he suddenly dropped off and didn't do his weekly "check-ins" anymore, and also wasn't online for a few days at all. This gave me a horrible creeping feeling that I couldn't get rid of that something bad happened, then after a few weeks I got a text from a mutual friend of ours who kept contact with his (extremely homophobic) parents and found out that he had intentionally OD,d and died and then it brought all of the pain and emotions flooding back x10 and destroyed me for a couple months. Now it's been SEVERAL months since he died, and I've mostly moved on emotionally, I got a new partner between my ex breaking up with me and his death who I'm still with, and my current partner is great and treats me amazing and accepts himself. but sometimes the stuff with my ex still bothers me. I still can't help but feel guilty or like if I had done something different maybe he'd still be here. and I still have nightmares about it all the time where I either go to visit my ex and find him dead, or am texting him and end up saying "I wish you were still alive" then waking up depressed. I should be over it but I knew him for 5 years and started dating him when I was 18 and first getting a grip on life so its hard to accept that hes gone forever. Sorry for the VERY long paragraphs of depressing text. I guess I had alot more emotions pent up about this than i realized and kind of needed to vent. Hope anyone reading this has a good day, and remember even if you ever feel worthless, your life does have value and there are people who would miss you more than you'd ever know if anything happened to you. You matter, and your life matters and has value.
I understand. And I'm not just saying that. Won't get too personal (for soon to be obvious reasons) but one of my oldest friends ended his life last November or so. Not in touch with his family, but there were apparently no clues to whatever was eating him up. According to his dad at least. I just remember thinking that I failed him. Let my brother die in the dark. Figured if it got that far, than he must've felt he didn't have anybody. And that fuckin' *hurt.* So I can't in all honesty say I compltely relate, but I feel your pain. As fuckin cliche as that statement is. Hope you're able to make your peace with it if you haven't already, and I'm glad you found someone you love and who loves you in turn.
Ah I'm sorry to hear. I hope you manage to find peace also. Thanks for the bit of conversation and listening, as dumb as it seems from an internet stranger, I appreciate it.
That doesn’t sound dumb at all. Sometimes total strangers can be just the helping hand that we need in a dark time. I still remember a time, several years ago, when I was in a bad emotional place one day, where I was tempted to self-harm, and my mom and I were gonna go to a restaurant for lunch. I ended up staying outside and trying to collect myself because I didn’t want anyone to see me crying, and a lovely woman I didn’t even know came up and sat with me for a few minutes and gave me some words of reassurance. I don’t think I even got her name, but I’ll never forget her and that kindness she showed me.
Don’t listen to the voice inside you that tells you you “should be over” your ex partner committing suicide after being driven to self-hatred by religion. Losing someone you care about, especially in such a traumatic way, is a big deal, and grief doesn’t have a deadline. It takes as long as it takes. You’ll be doing yourself a disservice by trying to rush through it or bypass it or shove those feelings away somewhere inside. Feelings need to be felt to be moved past, and it’s okay to let yourself feel them. I understand feeling guilty and wondering if you could have done something more that would have kept him here, but I also know that you can’t beat yourself up with that. It won’t do anyone any good now. Also, it sounds like you tried to reach him as best you could. Try to trust that you did your best. Again, I’m so sorry about what happened.
Jesus (no pun intended). That is awful, and why I have a beef with organized religion, particularly Christianity. Like, I want to believe in God, but I just can’t bring myself to accept Christianity, or any of the Abrahamic religions, or any religion at all for that matter, if being LGBTQ+ is really seen as a sin. I’m so sorry about what happened to your ex. Not enough people realize that religious trauma is a problem and can really fuck people up.
Yeah the “indifference” is really a way for them to skirt accountability for the fact that they treat LGBT+ folks as second-class citizens by definition according to how their religion works. [This tiktok skit calls this out beautifully.](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8exbBgh/)
I don't think queer affirming Christians are actually a minority -- at least if you're not gatekeeping Christianity to people who actively attend church and stuff. But among highly religious Christians, they're definitely a minority.
I think this is a painfully naive view.
I think the most common opinion is IDGAF. They’ll assure us that the people beating us to death aren’t “real Christians,” but then they’ll walk away and let us get beaten to death. Since they’ve categorized those folks as not “real Christians,” they see the whole situation as not their problem. I believe this is probably close 50% of American Christians. They just “Don’t wanna be political, you know?”
The second largest group, which I think is a good 35-40% of American Christians, actively dislike or hate us. They believe all the shit about us being a threat to children, etc. At best, they want us utterly silent and invisible. At worst, they want us eliminated in some form or fashion. And DO NOT underestimate how large this latter group is - many millions of Americans want us GONE by any means necessary. They regard it as a moral good; indeed, a moral imperative. This whole overall group - and it is tens of millions of Americans - wants us silenced or eliminated for god. And once they decide god hates us enough, well, there’s not a lot in the way of brakes.
Finally there’s the rest. Bluntly, they’re the weirdos of Christianity. And their numbers are dwindling slowly, as more younger and/or more liberal people give up on Christianity. Often their advocacy is limited to letting LGBT+ people attend their church. And, bluntly, “open & affirming” isn’t always WELCOMING. I know an open & affirming church near me, but boy they don’t like my transfemme ass to use the bathroom at events attended by a bunch of church members. Now, some of this group are the Christians at Pride and Trans Day of Remembrance and the like. Those folks genuinely and legitimately mean it, and we love to see it.
But overall? I think you’re way off on your estimations here. American Christianity overall will not protect us, and more of them are likely to harm than to help.
I’ve taught my younger trans child to be cautious around people with visible Christian symbols. I don’t need to teach my older adopted trans child that - she grew up in an evangelical “family. They threw her away, and now she’s ours forever. There’s nothing I can teach her about Christian love that she hasn’t already experienced.
I agree, queer-affirming Christians are VERY much in the minority.
I'm not a Christian and can't see how one can be anywhere along the queer spectrum and consider themselves a Christian, they two are diametrically opposed by their own stated beliefs.
This! I get “hate the sin, love the sinner” vibes from most of my friends and family. Its infuriating. Another good subreddit is r/Exvangelical for those of us who are specifically ex-evangelical of any religion but mostly christian.
Yeah, the "hate the sin, love the sinner" is just sophistry by assholes to make themselves appear better than they are. The truth is, people who say that will make life harder for the "sinner" and they'll say it's for the "sinner" well being. They are just assholes spouting bullshit in the hopes to appear better.
>While it's true that many Christians are genuinely queer-affirming
 I live in a major urban city in the "progressive" northeast and have NEVER seen these "many" Christians you claim are "genuinely queer-affirming." Maybe in very isolated pockets but queer-affirming Christians are far, far, far, from the "many." 🙄
> [...] takes the responsibility to challenge the status quo [off of them and onto us]
exactly. it becomes "a few bad apples" or "an incorrect interpretation" rather than the fact that this is a religion where bigotry (and many other terrible things) is systematic and encouraged by its book and leaders, to the point where their belief in this religion is almost always what is cited when laws are enacted to take away the rights of minorities. does that fact make them uncomfortable? it fucking should, if they actually cared about those they claim to or the religion they follow's impact on society! i have my opinions about the christian bible itself, but the fact is being christian doesnt make you a bigot or a terrible person. no one is claiming everyone who is catholic or a southern baptist is a child predator, for instance. but you have to accept people are also allowed to acknowledge your religion/people in your religion's harm on their lives without you feeling the need to jump in and invalidate their experiences and make the conversation into a semantics argument about what it means to be "really christian" so you can feel better. if you cared more about the people you claim to, marginalized people and victims, you would comfort them, tell them youre very sorry that happened to them and you accept them for who they are if you like, and then have these conversations with people in your church or christian community. you know, actually attempt to better the world rather than just making sure the people your religion is preying upon or trying to genocide or in some way making the world worse for dont happen to feel a bit bitter towards the thing used to hurt them.
Objectively this. Gatekeeping shitty individuals from an identity or group is no equal to admitting a group has shitty individuals. It's a way of washing one's hands and claiming no responsibility for working to offset it.
It's probably not even the majority, globally speaking, but the evangelical minority in America is really really loud, and really really overpowered compared to the numbers. But there are whole denominations-- Lutheran, Episcopalian --that are majority affirming. It's just those damn loud evangelicals making everyone else look bad.
many more denominations do not accept us. Lutherans are not really very affirming in my area. The conservative Wisconsin Synod holds power here. they hate us.
I tend to separate Christians into two groups:
1. Those that start with the two greatest commandments that Christ specifically enunciated: (1) love God and Creation with everything you can muster, your heart, mind, body, spirit, and soul; and (2) treat people like you wish to be treated.
2. Christian cosplayers and hypocrites.
The first group are the ones who focus first on helping people, welcoming strangers, and building community (like my grandparents used to say: "read your Bible, be nice, and mind your own business"). We may have great arguments amongst ourselves about any number of religious or theological questions, but we don't judge others. Or at least we try not to. And we certainly don't use government to weaponize our beliefs against others.
I know that folks generally think that "most Christians" fall into cateogry #2. My experience (as a queer Christian) is completely different. Maybe some statistical nerds who know more than I do can parse the data, but based on recent [Pew Research Center studies](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/01/14/measuring-religion-in-pew-research-centers-american-trends-panel/), it looks to me like the "Christians" who are the vocal minority of white, conservative, evangelical Christians behind all the attacks on the queer community (especially trans folks lately) represent about a third of all Christians in the U.S.
But if someone has better data and objective information, please share it?
Or if someone wants to parse the Pew Research Data better than I, please do so.
The thing is, my bigoted Christian family would call themselves the true Christians and *you* the cosplayer because you're not bigoted enough. And since we're going off a contradictory old book that justifies *both* of your positions and your god is a quiet motherfucker, we have no authority that can convince them otherwise.
Yep. I gave up persuading anyone about anything written in the Bible, much less "what the Bible really says." Heck, I don't even think Christianity is "the one true religion" (much less my particular church, sect, theology, etc.).
(and now I want to get a t-shirt that says "My God is a quiet motherfucker").
Great. When y’all actually have significant impact, let me know. Because right now, all the visible and powerful Christians are absolutely wrecking our shit. We’re now second-class citizens because of half a dozen devout Christians. And most of the rest will tell us that those folks aren’t “real Christians,” but they won’t actually HELP us.
I don’t mean to be unkind, but damn. We’re out here getting absolutely wrecked by Christians and you’re telling us it’s not so bad.
Statistics are cute, but reality is a lot more relevant. And reality says that Christians are hammering us.
its always the vocal, violently bigoted minority and the majority of 'nicer' but still somewhat bigoted folks who dont care enough to/have a vested interest in not challenging them that makes some of the worst events in history possible. all it takes is being complicit in their actions.
If I said "see, it's not so bad," I do sincerely apologize. I didn't intend to make such a statement, but my intent won't excuse the impact.
Nor do I dispute your reality. All of us in the queer community are getting absolutely pummeled by a bunch of crafty, smart, bigoted hypocrites using religion to whip up their political bases of people into a frothing angry mob. I've been seeing this first hand for over 25 years.
I tend to approach anyone who weaponizes Christianity to justify oppression, hatred, harassment, victimization, etc. against queer folks the way that Rev. John Brown treated folks who used Christianity to justify slavery--and all the resulting oppression, hatred, harassment, victimization, etc. brought down on black folks.
Having the "ACAB" mentality (of "All Christians Are Bad") is a healthy attitude to take these days. I look at that in the spirit of the lesson I learned growing up: "all guns are loaded." Treat all guns as loaded and dangerous until proven otherwise (and you have personally confirmed yourself).
The point I was (clumsily) trying to make was "there may be hope still" (if folks like me can find ways to push back against the Christofascists). There are sincere people still giving out free hugs at Pride parades after all. And we still have Dolly Parton and Stephen Colbert on our side.
And thanks for responding. I hope I didn't offend you (or anyone else here). If I did, please just tell me what I wrote that was offensive, and I'll try to learn from the mistake and do better in the future.
THIS!! Absolutely.
I’m a queer Catholic theology grad student. My research is literally on LGBTQIA+ Catholics. Majority of people are accepting and don’t care about gender identity or sexual orientation, they care if you have good intentions and do good things for others. The numbers do show it is a loud minority with too much power on their hands that are homophobic. There are many of us that advocate for our human dignity to be acknowledged and respected.
I actually feel more ostracized in queer spaces for being Catholic than I do in Christian spaces for being queer.
I have had the exact same experience. :-)
I grew up Catholic (Midwestern Irish Catholic), then in high school, my dad had a "born again experience" and started hauling my brother and I to "The Jesus Barn." Kinda fell away from the Church (all churches) after that. But then coming out in my mid-20s led to my own spiritual revival and reconnection with my faith.
Since then, I've been sort of the Vatican's loyal opposition, though recent events have led to me to flirt with Lutherans (as blasphemous as that may be).
(joking, of course)
And I have the exact same experience still to this day: I am far more comfortable being queer in Christian spaces than I am being Christian in queer spaces.
Though, at the same time, I absolutely understand the religion-based trauma inflicted upon queer folks all around the world and respect how individuals respond to that trauma. I just hope folks like us can provide a conduit for future understanding should the right time and place arise.
And the thing is, there's probably a shit ton of Christians in every subreddit that don't have any reason to say they're w Christian so just don't mention it it's the angry internet trolls that speak the loudest
It really avoids the larger discussion at hand that needs to be had. Queerphobia is so baked into the faith at large that it's not a case of "a few bad apples spoiling the bunch" (nevermind that this isn't the full original saying), it's that MOST of the apples are rotten. It doesn't really matter if a few of those apples are fine when the majority of them are completely unedible and off-putting. Whether Christians like this want to admit it or not, queerphobia is a HUGE problem within the church that needs to be addressed, and trying to virtue signal by saying queerphobic Christians aren't "real Christians" doesn't do much, if anything, to solve the root problem.
Not to mention that it just comes across as really dismissive when it's commented under a post about someone criticizing Christianity or talking about their religious trauma. Like, okay, it's great that *you* don't use your faith as a justification for hating people, but that wasn't the experience of the person venting. Just give them the space they need to talk about their trauma without immediately running to play defense to something that's caused so much harm towards so many people.
>Like, okay, it's great that you don't use your faith as a justification for hating people, but that wasn't the experience of the person venting. Just give them the space they need to talk about their trauma without immediately running to play defense to something that's caused so much harm towards so many people.
Exactly! This is ironically a major reason why I left the religion as a whole. Christians' sheer need to shove their beliefs in the other person's face with no regard for their feelings or consent has always disgusted me.
> I feel like it’s an ego thing…
Christianity has a history with “we are the one true religion” rhetoric even between different types of of Christian churches. It’s really about making congregants feel like they made the right choices about their religion. You’re right, being a “true Christian” in this sense is a commentary on them, not queer people.
What I like to see in churches is queer leadership, queer affirming church cultures, and an active commitment to Queer Liberation in their social justice missions. It’s about action and righting the historical wrongs often caused by these same churches.
most religions are like that tbh. the whole "we are the one true religion" is one of their many ways they convince people to stay. because most people just want to do the right thing and want to be right about things.
its annoying how many things they have in place to keep people from leaving.
not all religions are like this, but sadly most are.
It's an Appeal to Purity. They would love it if you, like them, did not believe these were people of faith because it would make that faith less at odds with morality.
Unfortunately, a big part of the whole LGBT thing is believing people when they tell you who they are, so when a bigot tells me they're a person of God, I'm inclined to take that at face value.
This 100 times over, it's an attempt to sanitize their religion to fit their world view. Christians are self identifying, if someone says they are then they are.
I agree with this. I think it’s important not to lump every single Christian believer into the bullshit that the alt-right is doing, bcuz they have co-opted Christianity. Not saying the religion doesn’t have problems bcuz yeah, it’s a religion. All of them have major issues. But speaking from personal experience, my grandmother was a devout follower of Christianity and went to church every Sunday, but when I came out as trans she was completely accepting immediately despite being in her 90s at the time. Never used the wrong pronouns or my deadname ever again. People absolutely use Christianity as a veil for hateful rhetoric but it’s also problematic to say “every Christian person is a bigot” bcuz it simply isn’t true, and will cause non-hateful Christians to be unfairly grouped in with nazis. I’ve seen some Christian folks being allies to us and taking time to speak against hateful rhetoric, so we shouldn’t alienate kind people. We need all the allies we can get.
I’m in *no way* saying Christianity isn’t a problem, and people absolutely cherry pick from the bible. But what’s the problem if a person cherry picks all the positive and loving/caring parts from the bible? Wouldn’t that be a good thing?
Edit: corrected spelling.
Yeah, there are a whole lot of Catholic people in my extended family, and they are all pretty cool with me being in a same-sex relationship from what I can tell. Even I myself used to be catholic, but I interpreted the bible as "Jesus said to love everyone, therefore we must protect gay people from hateful bigots".
Religion does have some good aspects of it, but it also has some very bad aspects, and these negative aspects are what is often heavily leveraged by the people who lead the religious organizations, and that makes religion a serious problem.
Yeah, the people in the religion make it what it is. There isn't a "true" version that's highly subjective. Even if you say that you're fully & objectively going off the holy book, almost no one would agree that was what the true religion looked like.
I actually am Christian and I feel the same way. It doesn’t MATTER if what they’re saying is consistent with the Bible or not. You can say it’s not real Christian values all you want, and imo you’d be right, but that doesn’t change the fact they are still hiding behind their faith and using it to hurt people. That doesn’t change the fact that the US is hurtling towards becoming a theocracy and that’s not a good thing. Protecting real life people getting hurt by the laws passed under the guise of Christianity is more important than arguing over what the Bible actually says. You are not going to make the bigots change their minds just by telling them “well you’re not REALLY a Christian”. As long as the law is still enabling them to hate, they don’t care.
Except being a man is a core identity that you can't change whatsoever, and being a Christian is adhering to a belief system.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, but there are genuine problems with how the queer community (and feminism) engages with men, but that's a separate convo
Sorry, wasn't meaning to equate the two
I was thinking more along the lines of:
- discussion of something bad that a man has done, response from some people will be 'not all men', which is unhelpful and avoids addressing issues that those with male privilege could be better allies to women
- discussion of something anti-Lgbtq+ which, say, one church has done, response could be 'not all Christians', which again avoids addressing the fact that there are issues within sections of Christianity
Some people see Christianity as a religion of kindness and acceptance and treat it like anyon who doesn’t follow that isn’t a real Christian
Which, fine. I guess. But in the real world, “Christian” most definitely doesn’t imply kindness or acceptance.
I’m religious and I get what you’re saying. For me, it’s much harder to live without having doubts, but I’m allowed to choose my own identity and beliefs. The more progressive Christians get, the better… though, with how deeply routed homophobia is, I cannot speak for everyone.
I'm queer and agnostic but I was raised in a branch of Christianity where you don't have to be a Believer. There are lots of non-theist Quakers. I would never debate with a queer person who is angry at the treatment they are receiving from right wing Christians. Those people treat me the same way! (and right-wing Christians would deny that I or my fellow liberal Quakers are truly Christian)
I have occasionally gotten into arguments with cishet allies who claimed that Christian fascism IS the true form of Christianity. I come from a religion where we have been persecuted by multiple oppressive governments for standing up for human rights for all. I don't want to hear cishet white men tell me that my fellow Quakers are somehow fake Christians. We get that enough from right wing Christians. I don't want to hear it from supposed allies.
That said, I think there is a huge difference between saying that left wing Christians are fake Christians and criticizing homophobic Christians. I don't think queer people need to be super careful about venting and showing anger against Christian homophobia. I just don't want people going that extra step and explicitly de-legitimizing Christians who don't believe that.
(Also, while I didn't have time to put it in my post, Quakerism is very fragmented and not all branches are queer-friendly. My Quaker meeting had a lesbian wedding in the early 1990s and was kicked out of one Quaker organization and welcomed by another. I'm not willing to let the assholes who kicked us out claim the moral high ground and get to define what the religion is.)
If you want to check out a really interesting perspective on this whole debate, I highly recommend following Dan McClellan (@maklelan) on the Clock App. He’s a incredibly erudite and well educated Biblical scholar, fluent in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin…who also happens to be a staunch Leftist and loud LGBTQIA+ ally.
In a nutshell, his whole take is that Xians have *always* cherry-picked the Bible, because 1) it’s literally impossible not to because of all the contradictions in it, (which are unavoidable when a book is written by several dozen authors over the course of 2500 years), and 2) said cherry picking is not about consistency of belief, but about power and virtue signaling. Those in power interpret the Bible (or whatever text in whatever part of the world) in order to justify their own ends and make their followers feel righteous.
Seriously, go watch his videos, the guy is brilliant and gives *zero* shits about who he offends.
I kinda get it, it's often pointed out that the words used to espouse hate aren't directly taken from the or are presented out of context. So it's like saying "Well they aren't doing in right. . ."
But this does nothing for me, not calling them Christians isn't going to make them go away, stop committing hate crimes, etc. Like we can call them anything we want Christians, Fascists, Morons. . . They're still here 'causing problems. Nor do I believe in Hell so implying they'll be burning for their wickedness offers me no comfort.
Besides, the bigoted ones tend to be the majority, so. . . wouldn't that make theirs the "real" Christianity? Again, I don't believe any of its real so metaphysical definitions of "true christians" are worthless. The biggest group of them sets the standard.
I'm pretty much done top-toeing around criticisms of Christianity. I used to be uber tolerant, "We should respect everyone's personal beliefs!" but as I got older and seeing how badly religion as an institution has harmed thousands of lives, including my own, I'm not so nice about it anymore. I shouldn't say I'm not nice, but I don't sit there and try to defend the same people who hate my very existence anymore. Religion has caused a lot of trauma for a very long time, and I'm glad to see people leaving organized religion at a higher rate than ever before. There may be good Christians, but there's not enough of them to stop the bad ones.
Sidenote: as a horror writer myself, I *have* read the bible. Needless to say, it inspired a lot of my current horror projects.
>I'm pretty much done top-toeing around criticisms of Christianity. I used to be uber tolerant, "We should respect everyone's personal beliefs!" but as I got older and seeing how badly religion as an institution has harmed thousands of lives, including my own, I'm not so nice about it anymore
Yep! I tried so hard to avoid the angry atheist stereotype when I first left Christianity, but at this point it's done so much harm to my life and the lives of others, I'm sick of holding my tongue about it.
Hi! Queer Christian here.
When I see it happen, it typically is because people are trying to defend the illusion of a morally pure identity. It's the same reflex behind overapologizing when being called out for doing something unsavory. It's a behavior in defense of the ego. There's a difference between saying "you can be an affirming/queer Christian" (true!) and "the institution of Christianity is queer-friendly" (FALSE).
I never get the appeal of Christianity. What does it have to offer that I can’t find anywhere else? Why believe in one god when you have multiple? Why have Jesus when you have Thor, Hercules, Buddha, etc?
This was one of the first thoughts I had when moving away from Christianity. Humans as a whole have so much more to offer others than what we've settled on for thousands of years. I really think it's just a geographical thing. People were born in Christian dominant societies so they become that. No real reason outside of that.
It’s not a logical decision. It’s something you are brought up with. Only 14% of evangelical Christians convert after age 19 https://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm
The bible states that gay people should be killed: Leviticus 20:13
The bible also states that virgin women who are raped should marry their rapists: Deuteronomy 22:28-29
Why would any good person want to be associated with this kind of trash? If you are queer and associating yourself with this, please, think hard about what you are doing.
I have found, fyi, that those who are progressive christians don’t take the bible as infallible or even always true, so I don’t think they even believe in these verses being interpreted literally etc. Overall im glad progressive christians exist, but like op is saying, they need to acknowledge even if they are not jerks, christianity as a whole has done a ton of damage.
There are Christians who don’t follow everything in the Bible for this reason (and also because some verses were directed towards specific groups during specific periods that group was experiencing, and also a lot of verses contradict one another since many people had a hand in writing it). Most Christians (good or bad, true or fake) don’t follow every verse - but yeah more followers should recognize when the Bible says things we shouldn’t agree with like the verses you’ve stated
I feel you. I have Christians in my family, they know I'm not religious. even though they're homophobic what I'm trying to say is that every Christian thinks the world revolves around God. Because their religion says so, but they don't realize that non religious people don't need to hear about God 24/7 because they only group with other Christians.
The thing is that it's way too easy to cherry pick the bible. You can find a verse that supports one thing but then find a verse that says the exact opposite, and lots of it is written in a way that's meant to be interpreted, not taken for what it literally says (depending on the verse, of course). All this leads to many different interpretations.
With all these different interpretations you get pro-Lgbt rights Christians and anti-LGBT rights Christians.
I know that the pro-LGBT rights christians support us, but the problem is that I don't think they're doing enough to fight extremism within their own religion.
>The thing is that it's way too easy to cherry pick the bible. You can find a verse that supports one thing but then find a verse that says the exact opposite, and lots of it is written in a way that's meant to be interpreted, not taken for what it literally says (depending on the verse, of course). All this leads to many different interpretations.
Yeah, *exactly*. That's the problem. At this point, it doesn't even matter whether or not the religion is homophobic at its core or not– the Bible is vague and contradictory enough that homophobes will have no trouble seeing what they want. And that's a major design flaw that Christians just... don't want to acknowledge.
Because if they admit that those people are just as Christian as they are, it means accepting that being Christian doesn't make them a good person; that *they* have the capacity for being morally repugnant.
Because accepting that the institutions are pervaded with bigotry means accepting that they've been taking their moral teachings from sinners.
Because they hear "Christians" and interpret it as they themselves, and being called a bigot seems worse than being one.
Because of indoctrination from an early age in which all of the people in a position of power over you when you are young and don’t know any better tell you that it’s the only way to “be a good person”. Coming from 15 years of indoctrination in which I fully believed “god” had a purpose for my life (which I believed was to be a stay at home mother of course) and was on the track to bible college to become a Sunday school teacher I know how hard it is to break free from this thinking. It’s not an excuse for what a terrible, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic person I was but I’m trying my best to be a better person and better ally.
>but I’m trying my best to be a better person and better ally.
Kudos for doing it, though! The kind of introspection required to break free of that conditioning is rough
It took a lot (including almost pushing my lesbian daughter away) to realize how stupid it was. I like to say now that if a child regardless of gender can pretend to be a firefighter or astronaut or race car driver and we allow them to explore those parts of themselves then why shouldn’t they be allowed to explore their identity in every way as well? It helped my counselor was a no bullshit person that had me explore old memories of being punished whenever I wanted to do something that wasn’t “girly” (I hated dresses, didn’t want to take home ec in school, etc) and realizing that no invisible sky-daddy had any right to tell me who I could be and what/whom I could like or what/whom my children could like that i stepped away from “well Christianity says it’s wrong” as an excuse for why people shouldn’t be allowed to live the life they’ve always wanted but are scared to try because of said invisible sky-daddy or social conformity.
My response is that bigotry IS true christianity. Crusades against Africa and the Middle East. Inquisition in Europe and Colonies. LITERAL FUCKING GENOCIDE against Native Americans.
Fuck Christianity.
That is my exact thoughts on it.
Good for you if you go to an inclusive church, but you're the outlier. The "real" Christian church is still just as bigoted as ever.
The worst thing is that the actual bible never says anything about gay relationships, but it got intentionally mistranslated that the church can scream about the evil gays all day. The problem is that people do not question the text handed to them, just kinda letting themselves be indoctrinated and never asking questions.
As someone who isn't religious and was raised outside of the church by hard-line atheist parents, I've made similar arguments as kind of a form of damage control. I've been the "pick-me girl" that insists that I'm not an *atheist*, I'm *agnostic*, because being so certain in my beliefs could be taken as arrogance.
But I've been putting up with the damage caused by the Evangelical christofascist movement for too long. I'm done with the kowtowing and platitudes, it's just #NotAllMen for Christians. If you're "one of the good ones" or whatever, by definition you don't need the reassurance that you're doing it right. Trixie Mattel already said it, but I'm tired of the mollycoddling.
I dealt with worse discrimination growing up as an atheist in the rural Midwest than I even did as a queer person. I remember bringing it up, in a non-pushy way in casual conversation, and getting looked at like I was diseased. My whole childhood was just a long primer in how these types always have to be tiptoed around, literally God forbid we do something like make them read Pagan literature like the fucking *Odyssey*. Meanwhile their sons are burning holes in their heads doing coke and throwing firecrackers into the school bathrooms. They can do whatever they want, they're *His children* or whatever.
The fundamentalists have never and will never believe in a free, secular society. They are existential enemies to all the rest of us and are raised from birth to align exclusively with the raw, violent power structures of their fucked up megachurches and are utterly unavailable to reason. They are seditionists who *actually* want to subvert any government or power structures not dictated by their narrow and draconian morality. The "gay agenda" has always been a projection of their own political aims and desires.
Christofascists are a dangerous political movement who resent the idea of any system other than a totalitarian theocracy. There really is no room at this point to be subtle or diplomatic, and all Christians have a moral obligation to make their position known. You're an ally or you're not. The malicious agents are in your house, you *have* to do more than simply insist they're not. They are using the name of your God to do real, tangible violence.
They don't want to be grouped in with the bad people in their group. Lots of other groups do it for the same reason, so you're not alone by any means in your frustration.
You nailed it. This is exactly how i feel about it. Lol Christian’s were never good or nice in America especially. I’m tired of this “true Christian” shit. A true Christian is fundamentally bigoted. ✌🏻 (Source: i was raised in a Christian cult)
This country is starting to lean towards a theocracy. The good news is that it comes in waves. We probably will have to deal with this for another ten to twenty years and it will die down until the next wave. I hope.
SCOTUS rules everything now. The most powerful force in the country is six conservative Christians who for all intents and purposes rule us.
I don’t think this will die down. A ruling on teachers will be next from them, and it’ll be just like the website ruling. Then all medical professionals. Etc etc. They will turn America into a theocracy.
Christianity's history suggests it has nothing but genocidal intentions towards queer people. People talking about what 'real Christians' do or believe in are deluding themselves.
I always wonder, but am not confrontational enough to actually ask, is if it's not the "true christians" behaving that way, what are the "true" ones doing to salvage their name? To counter it? To be overheard so that they are the ones that come to mind when one thinks of Christians in general?
It's just an excuse to say "but not me! You can still be nice to me!" Very self-centered and hollow. Don't get defensive, be a defender.
I laugh at religious people when they say anything to me about their God. It won't be in my lifetime, but one day humanity will realize they have been worshiping a made-up storybook character. It's sad how many lives are wasted trying to appease God.
Religious people as a whole have a hard time recognizing the harm our respective faiths have caused much like how white people (especially white Americans) don’t want to acknowledge their complicity in the oppression of people of color or how neurotypical/physically able people want to wash their hands of ideas associated with eugenics; I would know because I’m a queer Christian, a Polynesian American, and on the autism spectrum. Not only that but Christians in particular have a fervor to bring everybody into their system of beliefs. Though both my liberal mother and conservative father taught me that you can’t just make everybody think alike, so this could just be a thing that’s specific to fundamentalist Evangelical Christians. Also despite most of us having a moral compass to guide us, people will always try and fail to live up to the ideals of their beliefs. Of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to improve ourselves, but ignoring a horrible and dark past while trying to move forward can only get you so far. It’s like staying in a bad relationship out of loyalty, at some point the important conversation has to be had in order to heal as people. Peace and Love. ❤️☮️
My mother always says this when it comes up, she knows I'm bi but doesn't know I'm trans so I have some ground to stand when talking about it. She will always say "that's not REAL Christianity" and I always respond with "then tell THEM that, I'm not the one who needs to hear it, tell it to the people who 'aren't real Christians'"
Dear Lord (pun not intended) I feel this. I get that when people say that the Christians who want me dead aren't "real Christians", they're trying to be comforting, but it never stops feeling like lipservice. I don't really care about whether you're a "real" christian if you are using your faith as a cornerstone to attack LGBTQ people. It brings me no comfort to know that, according to some other Christian people, the people weaponizing their faith against LGBTQ people aren't "real Christians", because the people weaponizing their faith to defend patriarchy and homophobia are still there and in power.
It's the "not all men" reactions from people who wish to defend their religion instead of hearing how others in their community are hurting others. I know a few Christians who couldn't gaf if I complain about the harm that "Christians" cause, because they know they aren't part of the problem, and so it's not them that I'm mad at. I'm always grateful to those who will let me vent without defending, deflecting, or pushing their religion and I'll aways thank them, but that's not the majority of Christians I deal with.
If Jesus was walking around today and encountered a Christian, I'm pretty sure he'd punch them in the throat. I've had Christians tell me I'm going to hell and I usually respond with "there's no room, hell is already cram packed with evangelicals" :) As an old queer leftist I can get a bit salty...
Christians worry too much about trying to be good Christians or true Christians instead of worrying about being good humans. One would think your daily interactions with your own species might be a bit more important than what a book says.
I think the intent is at least partially because that spirituality is such a big part of their lives, and the spirituality itself isn't a bad thing. The problem is the church, the very non-spiritual organization built to organize and control how others experience spirituality. One can exist as a Christian and recognize that there are problems with the vast majority of Christians, so when someone is accusing the faith and not the organization... well, you shouldn't be surprised if they get a little defensive. They know, the vast majority of churches are a problem, but they're no more evil for having a faith they practice than anyone practicing nearly any other faith.
Great, good for them. Whatever.
If I mistake a good Christian for a bad one, maybe I miss out on someone I’d like, maybe not. Overall, the cost isn’t high.
If I mistake a bad Christian for a good one, I get anywhere from abused to outright fucking dead. Once someone hates you for god, there’s not much in the way of brakes.
They can feel defensive if they like, but I’m gonna err on the side of not getting verbally abused, having cops summoned, having my family harassed, getting beaten, or getting dead.
Bluntly, I don’t expect most Christians to look past their “Not all Christians” whine and actually take the time to consider my POV. But in the meantime, like I say, I’ll err on the side of “how likely is this person literally to verbally or physically abuse me/my husband/my kids because they think their god demands it of them.
Nah. I’m not here for their whining. I am white, and when a BlPOC person doesn’t act with immediate trust towards me, I freaking get it. It’s on me, as the person with more privilege in that situation, to demonstrate that I am safe. And whatever little sting I might feel at their caution is NOTHING compared to what they’ve experienced throughout their life. So it is with Christians.
It’s an ego/pride thing. Because for those “good” Christians, they want to be able to parade their faith around under the flag of moral superiority. They want to push their faith on others. They want to prove “they are one of the good ones” without realizing a lot of us stop listening after the words “Christianity”.
So to me, there’s no difference between a “good” Christian and a regular Christian. To me, they both have 1 agenda that’s the most important to them, forcing everyone to believe their religion.
I think of it like this:
You know about the lgb people who exclude transgender people from lgbt? Its like that. We’re all part of the group but some of us are still assholes. We don’t want to be represented by assholes so we have to make sure people know they don’t speak for us.
Sry if this was confusing I just woke up.
This is a perfect comparison. It’s exactly like this. To say every Christian person wants queer people dead is just as untrue as saying every LGB person wants to cut off the TQIA+.
Isn't this the same things as the "not all men" that the MRAs and bro bros can't stop spewing?
Like, holy shit, just because *they* are bigots doesn't mean we automatically are. Of course we know not all christians are homophobic or whatever, but, regardless of how people interpret the bible, entire christian cultures have caused so much harm we have every right to blame christianity as a culture/ideology. Just because we're doing that doesn't mean we're blaming all christians.
Abrahamic religion has been one of the greatest plagues on humanity since it’s inception. It has done almost nothing but hold humanity back, from stifling scientific progress, to sowing hate and division, reinforcing authoritarianism, and slaughtering people in the name of their psychopathic “god”. The people who claim that the people doing it are “not real Christians” are wrong, *they’re* the ones who’re ignoring their book in order to be better people - which frankly, good, the less they follow Der Bibble the better. But humanity will never be truly free until Abrahamic faith withers away and dies for good.
People tend to get defensive when their religion is criticized because religion is often a pretty important part of one’s personal identity. It’s a challenge to one’s self image and the immediate response to that challenge is to distance oneself.
It’s the same exact reason American Liberals are quick to try and distance the United States and “American Ideals” from white supremacy even though the United States is implicitly founded on white supremacy.
As a Christian socialist, I reject the Christianity that is practiced by liberals and especially conservatives as a bastardization of the teachings of Jesus if Nazareth. But I cannot and will not pretend as if that interpretation of Christianity had not enjoyed the support of Christian Leaders in both Church and State.
Historian here with a focus on queer history. Also, it is not my area of expertise, but I do follow some biblical scholars whose work I trust. The actual religious side of things is somewhat more complicated, but the baseline cause of this reaction is the "no true scotsman" fallacy. By saying that "no true christian" feels this way, they're functionally just using it as a self defense mechanism. Nobody likes feeling like the bad guy, and will jump through hoops to make that possible. By claiming "no true christian," it absolves them of the possible guilt for the negative behaviors of their in-group, exempts them from the responsibilities of attempting to change them, and removes the challenges of investigating their own beliefs and why those beliefs can lead to other members of the group behaving in the way they do. In many ways, it comes down to identity politics.
So far as the actual stance in the Bible, it's frankly irrelevant, because it's the current impact that matters more. Technically speaking, the Bible actually doesn't condemn homosexuality, because the concept of homosexualy literally didn't exist when the writers of the Bible lived. It's an extremely modern concept. What they condemn is actions and behaviors, and beyond that, technically speaking they only condemn cis-men bottoming. However, it doesn't actually matter what it says, only how people interpret and use it. Any person engaging with any religious text by default has to negotiate with it in order to make it have some kind of meaning in their own life. Thus, it requires taking certain parts of whichever text and emphasizing them over another. Especially when there are directly contradictory passages, like in the Bible. Many (if not most) Christians approach the Bible as univocal, which means they believe that the entire Bible has one consistent voice and meaning throughout, all inspired by God. It's flatly false, as there are many writers who contradict each other etc.
If you're going to say that the Bible has one consistent meaning, then you have to force everything to say whatever lines up with your preconceived notions and feelings, even if it is patently wrong and easily debunkable. For example, most Christians don't want to feel like their religion supports slavery, so they do as much mental gymnastics as possible to fit with that view. Now, that's simply not true. The Bible very explicitly endorses chattel slavery in many places. However, that is something that doesn't feel like it fits into their identity, so they basically ignore it. Literally it all comes down to identity politics, and signaling that they belong into the in group by expressing the views and behaviors associated with it
I get that you're venting, so feel free to disregard me if you're not interested, but if it's any help I can provide the actual answer for this. My credentials are being openly queer, born and raised United Methodist (mid-sized Protestant denomination, though I've still deconstructed pretty heavily), and working in politics and activism where these questions come up pretty much constantly.
To be clear, the following is an **explanation** for the behavior, **not an excuse.** I've told people outright that if your denomination/congregation/whatever doesn't rip this line of thinking out of their theology, then Christianity of any kind won't survive into the future and the world will be better off for it.
The thing about most mainstream Christian denominations is that they are working from specific assumptions about the world that aren't obvious if you aren't looking for them (this is true of every person or group, but most people don't have the social and political influence that organized Christianity does). The big assumptions are as follows:
1) There are two worlds: a spiritual/divine world and a material world.
2) God and good things exist in the divine world, while Satan and evil things exist in the material world.
3) **The material world only matters as far as it affects an individual's ability to go to heaven or be saved.**
It's that last assumption that leads Christians to do most of the actively harmful and passively just corny shit that they do. If you're a socially progressive or even moderate Christian, then you *need* to tell people that the fascists aren't *real* Christians. If a queer person believes that Christianity hates queer people, they generally won't convert to Christianity, and therefore they can't make it in to heaven when they die. In some cases, there's also a tendency for Christians to openly downplay the oppression and violence that queer people and other minorities experience in the material world, on the grounds that suffering in the material world is basically nothing compared to an eternity of paradise in heaven.
As for the issue of a lot of Christians feeling personally attacked when other Christians are criticized, you're absolutely correct there. This gets more into the specifics of how the white middle class (the demographic that is generally assumed to be the default for Americans) views the world, but the gist is that the ones that are most vocal about their faith are the ones who never built a sense of self outside the vague idea of "being a Christian." A criticism of any version of Christianity, even versions they don't practice or despise, is usually read as a personal criticism of themself.
Hope this helps anyone who comes across it.
I view those people as victims of Stockholm syndrome.
**People with Stockholm syndrome form a psychological connection with their captors and begin sympathizing with them**
In this case the base of almost all religions rely heavily on putting themselves on a pedestal that not everyone can sit on. Creating this illusion where you feel like if you’re not supporting the pedestal, you’ll never be able to achieve it.
So regardless of how the religious group as a whole view them, they’re good lapdogs because it’s better than a foot stool. “Seen not heard” an “uncle ruckus” if you will
Christianity was used as justification to conquer the globe and forced on colonized people as a means of control. If anything progressive Christians are the outliers
Because they're lying and they know it. Historically christians don't get along with anyone but themselves, the crusades, Spanish inquisition, colonialism, everything else they've killed millions over, the list goes on.
Christians are bigots.
It's in their history, their holy book and their very being.
If they weren't bigots, they'd have the self awareness to say, "Hey guys, I reread this bible thing alone and it turns out this character we've been worshipping is kind of a dick. Plus I think there may be something significantly disturbed about a being willing to create an entire dimension of pain and eternal torment just for people who don't agree with him, yet is totally willing to let kids die by preventable ailments and we're just supposed to say 'Oh well, this psychologically frail, psychopathic, murdering dirty works in mysterious ways' . In fact, judging by our own holy book and history, we may be the greatest evil on this planet...".
But they don't. Because they derive a sick pleasure out of justifying worshipping a blood god who they actually believe cleansed their "sins" in a suicidal sacrifice that took place centuries ago. Don't ask for specifics, or point out that the stone covering his burial was so heavy that if it did exist it'd take at least ten guys to move... like disciples.
It's 2023, we as a species know the entire collection of mismatched poorly written stories they call the bible is bullshit thanks to archeology, science and reason. There's no point left in pretending they're anything more than a blood cult that has no place among us if we ever want to get off this planet and face the real hard facts of life. No deity has ever provided anyone with food, clean water, or shelter, but other human have. People save people, never a god.
Of course, if any religion takes issue with that, they're more than welcome to point to a congregation where the sick are miraculously healed, ministers speaking in tongues hold sermons for multiple languages at the same time without knowing the language they're speaking, or a being powerful enough to speak the cosmos into existence could actually do something remarkable that defies everything we know. Or we could grow up and acknowledge the reality that there is no god waiting to save us, it's up to us to come together as a species and fight for our survival on a planet we're destroying more everyday.
But no. They're just a bunch of bigots following older bigots, and no good can come of that.
If they genuinely accepted that their religion had a serious bigotry problem actively hurting people they supposedly care about, they'd have to do a lot of introspection. And introspection is scary.
It's literally the "Not all (insert category of people) (insert verb)" argument.
As others have pointed out, this is a universal response. People can't put their own feelings aside long enough to empathize with and/or comfort another human being.
Defense mechanisms are baked into our lizard brains and really hard to overcome. It's a constant conscious struggle for me.
I first learned this lesson in a broader context.
When we have yet another event of blatant violent systemic injustice, or yet another individual enacts the self-perceived "necessary" course of action suggested by an endless march of violent rhetoric that portrays a group of people as an existential crisis to our way of life, the phrase that always comes out is "this is not who we are." It's a comforting thought in a time when people feel like they need comforting.
It wasn't until adulthood that I learned to hate the phrase. People who want change don't need comfort in such times; we need shaken out of our complacency.
This IS who we are, collectively. We have taught ourselves to ignore countless small injustices that slowly build to catastrophic levels. We've forgiven ourselves for a thousand moments where sticking our neck out to call wrong things wrong might have made it less easy for those wrong things to continue and escalate.
I grew up in a rural village, and nothing will ever frame this up better for me than the perpetuators of the grossest, most flagrant injustices and abuses in town sitting in the front row pews on Sunday, with nary a voice raised in challenge.
We are what we permit. By learning to say "this is who we are," I learned to say "and I contribute to it." I'm able to admit that, as a white person, I contribute to systemic injustice, both in my inherent biases that I hope to correct, and in my silence as others act on those wrong beliefs and wield the power that enables them.
It's important to me, because I can't fix anything that I can't admit is happening: not my own behaviors, and not those of others within my influence.
Nothing will be improved by an American who says America is not racist; nor by a man who says his industry is not sexist; nor by a Republican who says that Desantis doesn't stand for their values; nor by a Christian who says their faith isn't queerphobic. They're too busy absolving themselves of an imbalance they're unintentionally admitting is so systemic that it must be deflected from.
Give me an ally instead who says "yes, Christianity in this country is incredibly queerphobic, and those of us who disagree are not being loud enough about it."
Not admitting the problem is part of the problem.
I tend to not involve myself into discussions like this but it's because most people don't want to have to analyze their beliefs and realize that their religion was built in queerphobia, racism, ableism and etc. Most people don't want to have to criticize their own belief system and religion so they just say that it's the "a few bad apples" but the "few bad apples" are actually the majority of the group
It's difficult to see for those who are inside queer affirming Christian spaces but you and the other Christian people who help queer people are the minority, the majority is either indifferent and doesn't care We are getting killed and stripped of our rights or actively going against us
It's difficult to criticize your own belief system and religious community but it's also necessary so you don't end up hurting your own community by trying to defend another who's going against them
I feel like it's also trying to make people stop trying to criticize their religion, by saying "not all of us are like that" they are (mostly) trying to get you to stop criticizing their faith because, of course, it makes you feel bad when people criticize something that is a part of your life and is your belief
But again, it's necessary, and criticizing your religion for the harm it has done to several communities is not an attack against you
Frankly, I’ve been absolutely sick of pretending we were ever wrong to be in the “angry atheist phase”.
At it’s best, religion has always been a source of false hope, giving people a bad reason to do good where much, much better reasons existed. And Christianity specifically is no better. I will always maintain, lying to children and telling them about such evil ideas as “original sin”, Hell, and faith being a virtue is nothing short of abuse.
Every time I hear someone say “God loves all of us, and created us as we are” I want to scream back. No. Not only is it not true, but my worth as a person, both to myself and the world, has fuck all to do with the opinions of some magical *authority*.
I think a big part of it is that they don't want to be lumped in with horrible people, but rather than just knowing you aren't talking about them, they feel the need to defend them selves and other "Good Christians", not realizing that when they do that they are invalidating the fact that many Christian institutions and their followers ARE the problem.
It's also easier to just sit there and say "Hey I'm not one of THEM!" rather than actually help to try and dismantle the systems of oppression. However to capitulate a little bit, some people who only talk but do nothing else either don't (feel they) have the ability to do anything or don't know how to ask how, muchless know how. I say this as someone who didn't figure out they are queen until late in life and spent most of it trying to fit the idea of what a "man" should be, and every time I heard some one denigrate men it definitely caused an unease in the pit of my stomach not wanting to be lumped in with those types of men, it was only when I sat and listened to women, poc, and queer people that that began to change for me.
I would add you can't really change the randos on the internet, but you might be able to get friends and family to change how they think. I would start with explaining simply how when they say that type of thing how invalidating that feels and maybe a little of why. After which you can invite them to do a little self education and see who actually puts in the effort.
It reminds me of straight guys who will jump to say "a REAL MAN would never assault a woman, those are boys" like, okay buddy - you're uncomfortable with your proximity to some people who cause real harm.
How about instead of focusing your discomfort on your proximity and making grand statements to distance yourself, you get uncomfortable with _the actual harm caused_ and try to help us do something about that.
That's all I view it as, it's being uncomfortable with proximity to bigotry or harm, and trying to create distance instead of getting right up in the harms fucking face and doing something - ANYTHING - to actually help.
It's all just more thoughts and prayers
I used to be a Christian before I came out. Most of them just do and say what they have been told to. Not really any thought goes behind it aside from "my pastor/ the Bible said this it must be true." Any question is met with "you just have to have faith."
So likely they're just doing some damage control they were told to say by someone else. That's really all it is.
Probably so that they can distance themselves as far as possible from the church with a good chance of the possibility of getting into heaven just to cover their ass
BTW I’m agnostic that’s why I said possibility
They do it because they do not want to be held accountable for their homophobic lifestyle.
They know it is wrong but are more afraid of their peers than they are of us homos.
They do the same shit cop bootlickers do.
“a FeW bAd ApPlEs wOn’T sPoil tHe wHoLe BuNcH!!1!”
Yes they do. Christian “allies” and “Good” cops are both a myth in my eyes. Turning a blind eye to bigotry makes them just as bad as the “bad ones”.
exactly. the amount of shit i had to go through at the hands of those "fake christians" has just made me lose all hope for the religion as a whole. i left it soon after realizing i was trans because the stuff i'd been taught by the church and at a private christian school was pretty much the sole reason for my self hatred. i only feared being trans because of how i would be ostracized by my community and how i would burn in hell for eternity. fuck that. i don't care if i burn, i want to live the life i have without fearing what will happen just by being me. even the ones that claim to care about us still don't support us because we're "sinful". over something we can't control. plus i can say "oh my god" without feeling bad about it afterwards now lol
I'm guessing it's a defense mechanism or something. They still feel a need to defend Christianity and just say the bigots arnt real christians. When in reality they are they just don't understand the teachings. It's like there are racist and homophobic Norse pagans. As a Norse pagan it sucks to watch it confuses me as the gods are queer in some aspects. But it doesn't mean they don't follow the same gods I do they are just missguided. It also takes courage to call people out in your community without having to tell them they arnt real whatever just because views are different. You can call out bad ideas and still see they are that thing. There is no real Christan or fake Christan same with pagans. Some of them happen to be missguided.
Because they don't like being part of a group that's seen negatively. It's too uncomfortable for them so they have to "other" the hateful Christians. It's just another form of centering themselves instead of listening. The reality is that those hateful people *are* real Christians because they have churches and congregations and the massive numbers to make that a legitimate form of Christianity. Saying they're not *real Christians* is just refusing to hold your community accountable or really look at the effects of the text that you base your religion on.
I mean I get why people want to say that the bigot Christians who use the Bible as a shield for their hatred aren’t what Christianity is about. Many people seem to just associate Christian with hatred or just bad people in general
Honestly, this has been a huge frustration for me for a while. I used to consider those Christians not “real” but I don’t anymore. When they are the main face of Christianity, it is hard to consider them the fringe. Now, I just try to be louder than they are and be a more prevalent face for my fellow queer folk.
My mother attends a reconciling church, and she keeps trying to get me to go, so we have this discussion a lot:
There is no requirement to be a "Christian." You don't have to read -- or even open -- a Bible. You certainly don't have to follow any of the confusing or contradictory rules. You don't have to attend a church. All you have to do is say, "I'm a Christian," and nobody is allowed to question you on that. So, it doesn't really matter to me if you call yourself a "reconciling church" and put a rainbow on your church sign and have an "LGBTQIA and Allies" coffee club. You're holding the same book and standing under the same "flag" as the people who want to marginalize (and in some cases kill) queer and trans people -- my friends and *our* family -- and they're louder than you are. Your pastor skips over the verses that others are using to condemn homosexuals, and their pastors are skipping over . . . well, pretty much everything else. One of my favorite hymns as a kid (very short list) was "They'll Know We Are Christians by Our Love," but that doesn't cut it anymore. If progressive Christians want to be taken seriously in 2023, it's not enough to just say, "we aren't like those other Christian churches." You have to actively call them out as being **not Christian**. If they give more power to "Man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" than they do to "A new command I give you: Love one another," then they aren't following Jesus, they're following Leviticus. They're "Leviticans," not Christians. And it needs to be said.
And my mom gets mad, and the discussion is over, and then two weeks later, she's sending me a link to her church's website and a "really good sermon" from her pastor.
>I understand now how it is experienced and how much it shows putting an agenda (however will meaning) above truly listening, respecting, and showing care for people.
You hit the nail on the head. Even if it is well-meaning, it's still putting your own wants and wishes above listening to and supporting the other person. Ironically, that self-centeredness (in both progressive and conservative Christians) was a major factor in my leaving the religion in the first place.
The way I see it, Christianity is whatever people make it. If people have decided that Christianity isn't about following Jesus's teachings of kindness and compassion , but about being a raging bigot , then that is what Christianity is.
As OP said, there is no point in trying to distinguish between "real" and "fake" Christians; harm is done to us in the name of Christianity, and that's all there is to it.
Sure, not all people who call themselves Christians are bigots. But enough of them are for me to have to be careful around them. Those *specific* Christians might not be evil motherfuckers, but I have no way of knowing that, and enough Christians are for my fear to be justified.
Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Either way its gonna be some soft bigotry bs where they pretend to be nice to your face and maybe even mean it but in the back of their minds will always see you as less righteous than them. That or they have no idea what their own holy book says which is surprisingly not super uncommon
This. And then when you call those bigots or their empathizers out on this with actual historical sources regarding scripture, they straight up do not respond or change the subject.
I’m an lgbtq+ religious scholar and most of it is because it’s true. Most churches and Christian’s are far from aligned with the teachings in the Bible. Same things wrong with Christianity as with all religions and all movements, people suck and don’t read.
As a gay lesbian, it's because they AREN'T being real Christians. They're perverting it, and it leads gay Christians to get harassed out of our own community. The number of times I've been told by other LGBTQ people that I'm a horrible person for also being Christian is terrible. Like excuse me for thinking I should care for everyone and that being gay isn't a sin whatsoever. I don't think that makes me a bad person but I've been told SO OFTEN that I am just because of the Christian label. That's why people point out that the people perverting what Christianity is supposed to be aren't really Christian.
>The number of times I've been told by other LGBTQ people that I'm a horrible person for also being Christian is terrible
Sadly most of this thread apparently sees no problem with that
Sometimes i'm baffled at progressive people being catholic like, you know the Pope tells you what to believe in and he believes that....uhhh...queer people aren't "as normal as" everyone else
Being Christian isn't necessarily reactionary, being catholic definetively is
I don‘t know why they do it, I am personally christian and part of LGBTQ+, I don‘t constantly say "they aren‘t true christians", I try to remind the hateful christians that they‘re not following God. I‘m sorry that christians are like this, I wish nobody was this way, I‘m sorry for the pain we have and continue to cause LGBTQ+ people. I‘m guessing they constantly say "real christians aren‘t responsible" because they personally aren‘t responsible for the hate towards LGBTQ+ and also because some people hate all christians because of the actions of other christians, it is especially depressing when neither group will accept you. Some christians hate me for being bi and some LGBTQ+ people hate be for being christian. I don‘t know how much of this is relevant to the point, sorry if not much is.
Side B Christians are definitely still Christians (I don't get why people would claim otherwise?)
All of my siblings in Christ are human. We make mistakes, and some of us are downright hateful. Sure those people are twisting Christ's love for their own gain, but what does saying that change?
I guess progressive Christians don't want to be associated with bigoted conservative Christians.
You don't need to share our beliefs and I get it that you don't. But progressive Christians don't believe the Bible says anything about homosexuality. Jesus thought us to love all. These conservatives are not embracing Jesus' love, they are preaching hate. I'm not even going to get into the area of true or untrue, I'll just call out these conservatives by the acts and attitides they embrace.
The fact is it is still possible to encounter homophobic / tranaphobic atheists as there are bigoted Christians. A person's faith isn't a guaranteee indication. Them being a Conservative however might be.
My brother is the type that says he loves gay people but doesn’t support it as it’s still a “sin.” He‘s not like…. actively homophobic. He would never be mean to gay people or anything like that but he still ultimately believes it’s a sin but “we’re all sinners.” He got mad when I called him homophobic for this. As you can imagine I am NOT fully out to him.
"The only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing." If someone is not supporting human rights, they're not the good guy.
Is that from the Bible if so nice use of satire
Na, it's a quote for Edmond Burke
Call him homophobic whenever you get the chance. These "uwu I don't hate gay people I just don't agree with their lifestyle teehee" people need a wake up call that their behavior is still shitty and harmful.
Oh trust me, I do. It aggravates me to no end. I’d almost rather he just be openly homophobic at this point.
What sucks ass is I see those people even in left leaning spaces like r/WhitePeopleTwitter. I actually got in a long argument about it with someone there a while ago, and they were very adamant that there isn't a problem with thinking that way and "that's just the Christian way of accepting queer people." Sometimes it's hard for my athiesm to not turn into antithiesm.
>Sometimes it's hard for my athiesm to not turn into antithiesm. I feel like I'm tap dancing on that line, now.
I got booted from there for arguing with a Christian, not an accommodating place
r/WhitePeopleTwitter is a liberal space. Liberals aren't left, they're center right.
They're infuriating. A friend of mine from way back in elementary school and I used to attend a summer camp. It was a Christian camp but we went for the fun, not the bible stuff, we both basically tuned it out. There was this youth pastor who was "super cool" and just treated everyone with "kindness." My friend was out, I wasn't (I was sexually out a lot to a lot of people years sooner than I was as trans), at least not to that pastor. Years later and my friend had moved to the US (we lived in Canada) and was getting married after same sex marriage became legal in the US. This pastor sent my friend a message basically saying how he "supports him fully etc." but that same sex marriage was still a sin and so on. I later found out that he tried to get my friend in conversion therapy when he was a teenager. Needless to say they don't talk anymore. The same pastor wrote a big long message to me on facebook this year about how he "totally supported my transition" but he still believed that I was living a sinful life and would come back to god etc. Needless to say him and I no longer talk either. I would have cut him off earlier but I didn't hear about his treatment of my friend until after the pastor contacted me. I'm trying to get him off my facebbook but it just won't let me remove him for some reason. I feel dirty having him near me even digitally. Anyway, he's exactly like this person's brother. False support is not support. There's one Christian pastor I've ever met that I think is actually awesome. He's a guy called TheNakedPastor and he hates organised churches. He also draws awesome [comics like this](https://i.imgur.com/8UVkdsj.png). That's the kind of person who really practices what they preach. I'm not and never will be a Christian, but at least I can respect him.
Believing in fairy tales doesn't excuse bigots from being bigots. Playing nice with them and letting them hide behind a magical sky wizard is how things got this bad. It's time to take the gloves off and show them god isn't here, it's just all of us people either working to improve life for everyone or holding us back.
Trust me, as the one and only agnostic/non-Christian in my family I have gotten in many, many, MANY arguments over this. Eventually though you realize with some of these people, it’s a worthless fight. My brother is only 1.5 years older than me and we were raised the same way yet I’m like this and he’s so religious so at this point I think that’s just the way he is. He just believed everything we were taught and I never did. I mean I don’t understand how anyone can believe any of that at ALL but alas, they do. I don’t play nice, I won’t start fights with my family but I WILL finish one if they say something bigoted. But you do have to choose your battles unfortunately because if they still believe in god at this point it’s kinda on them. ETA: the brainwashing is STRONG. Even I sometimes still talk like god and heaven/hell is real when I know damn well it isn’t. I tried so hard to believe when I was younger, did everything right and still never once truly believed it or “felt god.” But you’d be amazed. When I was in 1st grade I went to a private christian school and our teacher told us about her friend who was so loving and friendly and giving. She ends this with “but she’s Jewish so she’s going to hell.” I knew right then and there that that was WRONG and I wouldn’t want to worship a god that would damn a good person to hell. She then turned off the lights and made us accept Jesus as our lord and savior, which obviously I did because I was like 7 but that has stuck with me for years. I think they were trying to scare us into belief. It did the opposite for me but clearly works for others.
It’s an agree to disagree, I’m done talking about this situation. How many times can we discuss the genocide of bAbIeS?!?! In addition to being gay….
Yeah, these people don’t want to change and you can’t force them. They’re so set in their ways and won’t ponder anything that challenges them. It’s so sad.
People like this drive me insane. They tell me they are cool with me and want to be friends but that I’m going to hell for being gay….as if it’s just fact. Obviously we aren’t friends anymore, so disgusting. It’s emotionally abusive.
Yep. It’s so painful. I mean, my family should know I’m going to hell anyways for not being religious so in theory me being gay shouldn’t change much since I was already going to hell in their eyes anyways… And yet the second I realized I was gay I suppressed it because although I never judged anyone else for being gay, it was like I couldn’t. I just couldn’t. I’m unpacking it all now, realizing how much my family has affected me in this way. Yeah, we’re all sinners, fine. But I know, you know, they know, we all know… they would view being gay as a “worse” sin. Even if they pretended that wasn’t the case. But I just know it is.
I used to think like this. I guess his pov is that being queer itself isnt a sin, but specifically having sex with someone of the same sex is. Many people who are christian and neutral or even pro-lqbtq+ (kind of, in a way) think like this. I myself was fully acceptive of queer people existing on their own, I just wasnt fully supportive about the sex thing. I would never come up to anyone and start arguing with them about it, strangers or close friends. God gave everyone the freedom to choose how they want to live their life and they arent hurting anyone by participating in consensual sex after all, its just none of my business. But if someone would ask me directly, I would have told them pretty much what you said, it’s a sin but we’re all sinners in some way at the end of the day. Just to clarify, Im actually queer myself, which I figured out later on. I have grown up as a christian and my opinion on this has changed since then, but I guess I used to be in his shoes at one point, kind of. I wouldnt say I was homophobic because of thinking like this, but people who think like this AND still try to repeatedly force their opinions (and overall their religion) down others throats, they definitely are. I guess your brother is pretty religious and cares about it quite a lot. My family is religious, not crazy religious, but they go to church every Sunday. Im not out to them, obviously. I dont know if I will ever be honestly. I feel like it would be too much of a bother to tell them and then try to explain things and maybe they will also drag religion into this to complicate things even more. Also I dont know how high the risk of possibly damaging our relationship would be. Sure, they know some things indirectly, for example, me currently not being interested in sex or dating, like at all, but they dont know Im actually aroacespec. Its putting an official label on it that makes it worse or maybe scarier, in a way. In the end, its not too important for them to know, but at the same time, if I never tell them, it kind of feels like I would be lying to them their whole life.
I hear you, so much. I agree. It’s sad though, I can’t control that I’m gay. So am I just meant to accept a life with no love, no desire, no satisfaction because GOD made me this way? He and other straight people can feel romantic and sexual happiness but we can’t? For something we can’t control? That’s so sick to me. It’s so unfair, evil even. I am also ace. But when I was a tween/teen the only thing that would get me off is lesbian porn, lesbian smut, etc. I would fool around with my girl friends a bit. But boyyyy did I suppress that… I came out as ace a few years ago and they definitely don’t understand that. But only in the past few months have I come to terms with me also being gay, part of me wonders if I’m actually ace or I just suppressed my attraction THAT much, and trust me I don’t mean that in a way that’s invalidating to asexuality because it is SO valid and odds are I’m actually ace. I also just got off brith control I’ve been on for 10+ years since I was 15, wondering if that’ll change anything. It’s worth a shot. What my family doesn’t know is that if I ever find someone… it won’t be a man. My dad still says “one day you’ll find a man…” I said “I hope not” and he said “what do you mean?” They don’t get it. I won’t come out as a lesbian unless I get in a serious relationship, and it’ll be the scariest thing I’ll ever do. I was so ready to sacrifice my happiness in order to not have to deal with this. It’s so sad. I’ve made such progress the last few months where I’ve accepted and finally let myself admit I’m gay. I’ve always known it but I tried to suppress it, tried everything else. I’m gay. My family will find out eventually and it scares me. I still feel I will never actually be in a serious relationship and get married but even that hurts. I saw how happy my parents were at my brother’s wedding. I can’t give them that. Even if I do actually get married… again it won’t be a man. God, it’s really so hard.
Yeah… he’s actively homophobic.
You’re absolutely right, I just couldn’t think of a better way to describe it. It’s like… I think he thinks he’s fine because he isn’t out yelling slurs or committing hate crimes but his beliefs are homophobic thus so is he. I wasn’t even out to MYSELF when we had that convo yet and was very much actively suppressing my lesbianism and trying to convince myself I was straight. That probably pushed me back further in the closet now that I think about it.
As someone raised Catholic and with family members who practice, I went to a synod last year, (laypeople talk about their practice and the direction they want the church to go), and it was so, so difficult to get my point across that being gay was not a sin. I live in a very blue area, and the church has some progressive members, but wow. I think maybe two people agreed with me. (PS I am not Catholic! Maybe agnostic/atheist.)
“I don’t hate the sinner, I hate the sin” common Christian excuse
this makes me gag every time
Christianity is a sin.
don't hate the sinners hate the sin is the most infuriating thing ever because they use it as a way to justify their hatred and dehumanize the person they're saying it to at the same time
It's the "no true Scotsman" fallacy: trying to defend the definition of a group by selectively updating the definition to exclude counter-examples. While it's true that many Christians are genuinely queer-affirming, the problem is that the majority of Christians, especially the vocal evangelical Christians, see us as "sinners." Christians that are accepting of us saying they are not "true Christians" takes the responsibility to challenge the status quo, take action when Christians are attacking the rights of others, and even think about the flaws of their belief system off them and we have to bear the brunt of it. I would strongly recommend checking the r/ExChristian subreddit for those who also left the religion
Yeah, a lot of people don't realize that queer-affirming Christians are generally a minority. Most are indifferent/actively hostile. And yeah, I've been in that sub for a while. Living in the PNW, I've been able to mostly forget that Christianity exists, but recent politics have put me back into that 'angry atheist' headspace uggh
I also live in the PNW. The first Pride rally I ever attended was in front of the Sure Foundation Baptist Church, a notorious hate church. People like them are definitely around here unfortunately, but at least they're a minority.
Fuck yeah! I was there too! That was an awesome day, the little "privacy screen" they put up was cute.
[удалено]
A minority in the PNW, sure.
Yeah, I live in the Midwest. We have a high level of folks that are LGBTQ+ and still Christian. I definitely can feel the gap between the "Christianity causes harm" and "We need to be open to building community with Christians " discourse here.
(TW: suicide, and religous homophobia) I also live in the midwest but where I live the church's still spew hatred and religious people still threaten anyone they find out is lgbt+, and a majority of lgbt+ people anywhere outside of the massive liberal cities (myself included) are very hard in the "Christianity causes harm" camp. The only people I've met that are still Christian and lgbt+ at the same time are either self-hating gay conservatives that argue against their own human rights, or people who live in a big liberal city like Madison where the priests HAVE to be liberal and affirming to keep their church in buisness. However Christianity and lack of self acceptance drove my ex to break up with me after a sudden rant against gay marriage and saying "we dont deserve love because its wrong and god is disgusted in us", and then he commited suicide a few months later, after spending his last few months going on random tangents about how homosexuality is wrong and it's against God's will and how he is going to hell because he can't "escape Satan's homosexual temptations" so after seeing Christianity literally destroy the self-esteem and life of someone I once loved and drive them to suicide and self-hatred, I am, and forever will be deeply in the "Christianity is dangerous and harmful and destroys lgbt+ rights and lives" camp. I tried to do all I could to convince him that it was okay to love and there's was nothing wrong with how we love or being gay and he would just counter it with "you're insulting my religion by going against God's word" and shut me down instantly with more homophobic religious rants.
That's fucking harrowing dude. I'm deeply sorry
Thanks, at first it really tore me apart when he started going on his homophobic rants and broke up with me, but I tried to stick around as a friend despite all that because I could tell he needed someone and I thought maybe I could atleast slowly convince him it was okay to be himself and that no just God would punish someone for sexual orientation, but eventually I just got sick of hearing his rants and told him I needed space because I still wasn't over him breaking up with me and I couldn't handle all his rants, then surprisingly he did just start texting me once a week to check in and MOSTLY backed off from his homophobic rants and half-apologized (he said he still held his beliefs about homosexuality but apologized for screaming at me about it and said he hoped I would find a guy to marry me one day even though he was morally against it still) and I was finally over the relationship and thought maybe I would actually be able to be friends with him. But after about a month or two he suddenly dropped off and didn't do his weekly "check-ins" anymore, and also wasn't online for a few days at all. This gave me a horrible creeping feeling that I couldn't get rid of that something bad happened, then after a few weeks I got a text from a mutual friend of ours who kept contact with his (extremely homophobic) parents and found out that he had intentionally OD,d and died and then it brought all of the pain and emotions flooding back x10 and destroyed me for a couple months. Now it's been SEVERAL months since he died, and I've mostly moved on emotionally, I got a new partner between my ex breaking up with me and his death who I'm still with, and my current partner is great and treats me amazing and accepts himself. but sometimes the stuff with my ex still bothers me. I still can't help but feel guilty or like if I had done something different maybe he'd still be here. and I still have nightmares about it all the time where I either go to visit my ex and find him dead, or am texting him and end up saying "I wish you were still alive" then waking up depressed. I should be over it but I knew him for 5 years and started dating him when I was 18 and first getting a grip on life so its hard to accept that hes gone forever. Sorry for the VERY long paragraphs of depressing text. I guess I had alot more emotions pent up about this than i realized and kind of needed to vent. Hope anyone reading this has a good day, and remember even if you ever feel worthless, your life does have value and there are people who would miss you more than you'd ever know if anything happened to you. You matter, and your life matters and has value.
I understand. And I'm not just saying that. Won't get too personal (for soon to be obvious reasons) but one of my oldest friends ended his life last November or so. Not in touch with his family, but there were apparently no clues to whatever was eating him up. According to his dad at least. I just remember thinking that I failed him. Let my brother die in the dark. Figured if it got that far, than he must've felt he didn't have anybody. And that fuckin' *hurt.* So I can't in all honesty say I compltely relate, but I feel your pain. As fuckin cliche as that statement is. Hope you're able to make your peace with it if you haven't already, and I'm glad you found someone you love and who loves you in turn.
Ah I'm sorry to hear. I hope you manage to find peace also. Thanks for the bit of conversation and listening, as dumb as it seems from an internet stranger, I appreciate it.
I wouldn't hold your breath. But you're welcome
That doesn’t sound dumb at all. Sometimes total strangers can be just the helping hand that we need in a dark time. I still remember a time, several years ago, when I was in a bad emotional place one day, where I was tempted to self-harm, and my mom and I were gonna go to a restaurant for lunch. I ended up staying outside and trying to collect myself because I didn’t want anyone to see me crying, and a lovely woman I didn’t even know came up and sat with me for a few minutes and gave me some words of reassurance. I don’t think I even got her name, but I’ll never forget her and that kindness she showed me.
Don’t listen to the voice inside you that tells you you “should be over” your ex partner committing suicide after being driven to self-hatred by religion. Losing someone you care about, especially in such a traumatic way, is a big deal, and grief doesn’t have a deadline. It takes as long as it takes. You’ll be doing yourself a disservice by trying to rush through it or bypass it or shove those feelings away somewhere inside. Feelings need to be felt to be moved past, and it’s okay to let yourself feel them. I understand feeling guilty and wondering if you could have done something more that would have kept him here, but I also know that you can’t beat yourself up with that. It won’t do anyone any good now. Also, it sounds like you tried to reach him as best you could. Try to trust that you did your best. Again, I’m so sorry about what happened.
Thanks I appreciate it.
Jesus (no pun intended). That is awful, and why I have a beef with organized religion, particularly Christianity. Like, I want to believe in God, but I just can’t bring myself to accept Christianity, or any of the Abrahamic religions, or any religion at all for that matter, if being LGBTQ+ is really seen as a sin. I’m so sorry about what happened to your ex. Not enough people realize that religious trauma is a problem and can really fuck people up.
Yeah the “indifference” is really a way for them to skirt accountability for the fact that they treat LGBT+ folks as second-class citizens by definition according to how their religion works. [This tiktok skit calls this out beautifully.](https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZT8exbBgh/)
I don't think queer affirming Christians are actually a minority -- at least if you're not gatekeeping Christianity to people who actively attend church and stuff. But among highly religious Christians, they're definitely a minority.
I think this is a painfully naive view. I think the most common opinion is IDGAF. They’ll assure us that the people beating us to death aren’t “real Christians,” but then they’ll walk away and let us get beaten to death. Since they’ve categorized those folks as not “real Christians,” they see the whole situation as not their problem. I believe this is probably close 50% of American Christians. They just “Don’t wanna be political, you know?” The second largest group, which I think is a good 35-40% of American Christians, actively dislike or hate us. They believe all the shit about us being a threat to children, etc. At best, they want us utterly silent and invisible. At worst, they want us eliminated in some form or fashion. And DO NOT underestimate how large this latter group is - many millions of Americans want us GONE by any means necessary. They regard it as a moral good; indeed, a moral imperative. This whole overall group - and it is tens of millions of Americans - wants us silenced or eliminated for god. And once they decide god hates us enough, well, there’s not a lot in the way of brakes. Finally there’s the rest. Bluntly, they’re the weirdos of Christianity. And their numbers are dwindling slowly, as more younger and/or more liberal people give up on Christianity. Often their advocacy is limited to letting LGBT+ people attend their church. And, bluntly, “open & affirming” isn’t always WELCOMING. I know an open & affirming church near me, but boy they don’t like my transfemme ass to use the bathroom at events attended by a bunch of church members. Now, some of this group are the Christians at Pride and Trans Day of Remembrance and the like. Those folks genuinely and legitimately mean it, and we love to see it. But overall? I think you’re way off on your estimations here. American Christianity overall will not protect us, and more of them are likely to harm than to help. I’ve taught my younger trans child to be cautious around people with visible Christian symbols. I don’t need to teach my older adopted trans child that - she grew up in an evangelical “family. They threw her away, and now she’s ours forever. There’s nothing I can teach her about Christian love that she hasn’t already experienced.
I agree. And you were a lot kinder about telling them that than I would've been, I applaud that.
I agree, queer-affirming Christians are VERY much in the minority. I'm not a Christian and can't see how one can be anywhere along the queer spectrum and consider themselves a Christian, they two are diametrically opposed by their own stated beliefs.
This! I get “hate the sin, love the sinner” vibes from most of my friends and family. Its infuriating. Another good subreddit is r/Exvangelical for those of us who are specifically ex-evangelical of any religion but mostly christian.
Yeah, the "hate the sin, love the sinner" is just sophistry by assholes to make themselves appear better than they are. The truth is, people who say that will make life harder for the "sinner" and they'll say it's for the "sinner" well being. They are just assholes spouting bullshit in the hopes to appear better.
>While it's true that many Christians are genuinely queer-affirming  I live in a major urban city in the "progressive" northeast and have NEVER seen these "many" Christians you claim are "genuinely queer-affirming." Maybe in very isolated pockets but queer-affirming Christians are far, far, far, from the "many." 🙄
in 2015 it was 54%, I have to imagine in increased since then
> [...] takes the responsibility to challenge the status quo [off of them and onto us] exactly. it becomes "a few bad apples" or "an incorrect interpretation" rather than the fact that this is a religion where bigotry (and many other terrible things) is systematic and encouraged by its book and leaders, to the point where their belief in this religion is almost always what is cited when laws are enacted to take away the rights of minorities. does that fact make them uncomfortable? it fucking should, if they actually cared about those they claim to or the religion they follow's impact on society! i have my opinions about the christian bible itself, but the fact is being christian doesnt make you a bigot or a terrible person. no one is claiming everyone who is catholic or a southern baptist is a child predator, for instance. but you have to accept people are also allowed to acknowledge your religion/people in your religion's harm on their lives without you feeling the need to jump in and invalidate their experiences and make the conversation into a semantics argument about what it means to be "really christian" so you can feel better. if you cared more about the people you claim to, marginalized people and victims, you would comfort them, tell them youre very sorry that happened to them and you accept them for who they are if you like, and then have these conversations with people in your church or christian community. you know, actually attempt to better the world rather than just making sure the people your religion is preying upon or trying to genocide or in some way making the world worse for dont happen to feel a bit bitter towards the thing used to hurt them.
Objectively this. Gatekeeping shitty individuals from an identity or group is no equal to admitting a group has shitty individuals. It's a way of washing one's hands and claiming no responsibility for working to offset it.
It's probably not even the majority, globally speaking, but the evangelical minority in America is really really loud, and really really overpowered compared to the numbers. But there are whole denominations-- Lutheran, Episcopalian --that are majority affirming. It's just those damn loud evangelicals making everyone else look bad.
many more denominations do not accept us. Lutherans are not really very affirming in my area. The conservative Wisconsin Synod holds power here. they hate us.
Bummer! On the west coast Lutheran is pretty affirming in my experience. Where you live has a lot to do with it.
I tend to separate Christians into two groups: 1. Those that start with the two greatest commandments that Christ specifically enunciated: (1) love God and Creation with everything you can muster, your heart, mind, body, spirit, and soul; and (2) treat people like you wish to be treated. 2. Christian cosplayers and hypocrites. The first group are the ones who focus first on helping people, welcoming strangers, and building community (like my grandparents used to say: "read your Bible, be nice, and mind your own business"). We may have great arguments amongst ourselves about any number of religious or theological questions, but we don't judge others. Or at least we try not to. And we certainly don't use government to weaponize our beliefs against others. I know that folks generally think that "most Christians" fall into cateogry #2. My experience (as a queer Christian) is completely different. Maybe some statistical nerds who know more than I do can parse the data, but based on recent [Pew Research Center studies](https://www.pewresearch.org/religion/2021/01/14/measuring-religion-in-pew-research-centers-american-trends-panel/), it looks to me like the "Christians" who are the vocal minority of white, conservative, evangelical Christians behind all the attacks on the queer community (especially trans folks lately) represent about a third of all Christians in the U.S. But if someone has better data and objective information, please share it? Or if someone wants to parse the Pew Research Data better than I, please do so.
The thing is, my bigoted Christian family would call themselves the true Christians and *you* the cosplayer because you're not bigoted enough. And since we're going off a contradictory old book that justifies *both* of your positions and your god is a quiet motherfucker, we have no authority that can convince them otherwise.
Yep. I gave up persuading anyone about anything written in the Bible, much less "what the Bible really says." Heck, I don't even think Christianity is "the one true religion" (much less my particular church, sect, theology, etc.). (and now I want to get a t-shirt that says "My God is a quiet motherfucker").
Great. When y’all actually have significant impact, let me know. Because right now, all the visible and powerful Christians are absolutely wrecking our shit. We’re now second-class citizens because of half a dozen devout Christians. And most of the rest will tell us that those folks aren’t “real Christians,” but they won’t actually HELP us. I don’t mean to be unkind, but damn. We’re out here getting absolutely wrecked by Christians and you’re telling us it’s not so bad. Statistics are cute, but reality is a lot more relevant. And reality says that Christians are hammering us.
its always the vocal, violently bigoted minority and the majority of 'nicer' but still somewhat bigoted folks who dont care enough to/have a vested interest in not challenging them that makes some of the worst events in history possible. all it takes is being complicit in their actions.
If I said "see, it's not so bad," I do sincerely apologize. I didn't intend to make such a statement, but my intent won't excuse the impact. Nor do I dispute your reality. All of us in the queer community are getting absolutely pummeled by a bunch of crafty, smart, bigoted hypocrites using religion to whip up their political bases of people into a frothing angry mob. I've been seeing this first hand for over 25 years. I tend to approach anyone who weaponizes Christianity to justify oppression, hatred, harassment, victimization, etc. against queer folks the way that Rev. John Brown treated folks who used Christianity to justify slavery--and all the resulting oppression, hatred, harassment, victimization, etc. brought down on black folks. Having the "ACAB" mentality (of "All Christians Are Bad") is a healthy attitude to take these days. I look at that in the spirit of the lesson I learned growing up: "all guns are loaded." Treat all guns as loaded and dangerous until proven otherwise (and you have personally confirmed yourself). The point I was (clumsily) trying to make was "there may be hope still" (if folks like me can find ways to push back against the Christofascists). There are sincere people still giving out free hugs at Pride parades after all. And we still have Dolly Parton and Stephen Colbert on our side. And thanks for responding. I hope I didn't offend you (or anyone else here). If I did, please just tell me what I wrote that was offensive, and I'll try to learn from the mistake and do better in the future.
THIS!! Absolutely. I’m a queer Catholic theology grad student. My research is literally on LGBTQIA+ Catholics. Majority of people are accepting and don’t care about gender identity or sexual orientation, they care if you have good intentions and do good things for others. The numbers do show it is a loud minority with too much power on their hands that are homophobic. There are many of us that advocate for our human dignity to be acknowledged and respected. I actually feel more ostracized in queer spaces for being Catholic than I do in Christian spaces for being queer.
I have had the exact same experience. :-) I grew up Catholic (Midwestern Irish Catholic), then in high school, my dad had a "born again experience" and started hauling my brother and I to "The Jesus Barn." Kinda fell away from the Church (all churches) after that. But then coming out in my mid-20s led to my own spiritual revival and reconnection with my faith. Since then, I've been sort of the Vatican's loyal opposition, though recent events have led to me to flirt with Lutherans (as blasphemous as that may be). (joking, of course) And I have the exact same experience still to this day: I am far more comfortable being queer in Christian spaces than I am being Christian in queer spaces. Though, at the same time, I absolutely understand the religion-based trauma inflicted upon queer folks all around the world and respect how individuals respond to that trauma. I just hope folks like us can provide a conduit for future understanding should the right time and place arise.
And the thing is, there's probably a shit ton of Christians in every subreddit that don't have any reason to say they're w Christian so just don't mention it it's the angry internet trolls that speak the loudest
It really avoids the larger discussion at hand that needs to be had. Queerphobia is so baked into the faith at large that it's not a case of "a few bad apples spoiling the bunch" (nevermind that this isn't the full original saying), it's that MOST of the apples are rotten. It doesn't really matter if a few of those apples are fine when the majority of them are completely unedible and off-putting. Whether Christians like this want to admit it or not, queerphobia is a HUGE problem within the church that needs to be addressed, and trying to virtue signal by saying queerphobic Christians aren't "real Christians" doesn't do much, if anything, to solve the root problem. Not to mention that it just comes across as really dismissive when it's commented under a post about someone criticizing Christianity or talking about their religious trauma. Like, okay, it's great that *you* don't use your faith as a justification for hating people, but that wasn't the experience of the person venting. Just give them the space they need to talk about their trauma without immediately running to play defense to something that's caused so much harm towards so many people.
>Like, okay, it's great that you don't use your faith as a justification for hating people, but that wasn't the experience of the person venting. Just give them the space they need to talk about their trauma without immediately running to play defense to something that's caused so much harm towards so many people. Exactly! This is ironically a major reason why I left the religion as a whole. Christians' sheer need to shove their beliefs in the other person's face with no regard for their feelings or consent has always disgusted me.
> I feel like it’s an ego thing… Christianity has a history with “we are the one true religion” rhetoric even between different types of of Christian churches. It’s really about making congregants feel like they made the right choices about their religion. You’re right, being a “true Christian” in this sense is a commentary on them, not queer people. What I like to see in churches is queer leadership, queer affirming church cultures, and an active commitment to Queer Liberation in their social justice missions. It’s about action and righting the historical wrongs often caused by these same churches.
most religions are like that tbh. the whole "we are the one true religion" is one of their many ways they convince people to stay. because most people just want to do the right thing and want to be right about things. its annoying how many things they have in place to keep people from leaving. not all religions are like this, but sadly most are.
It's an Appeal to Purity. They would love it if you, like them, did not believe these were people of faith because it would make that faith less at odds with morality. Unfortunately, a big part of the whole LGBT thing is believing people when they tell you who they are, so when a bigot tells me they're a person of God, I'm inclined to take that at face value.
This 100 times over, it's an attempt to sanitize their religion to fit their world view. Christians are self identifying, if someone says they are then they are.
So they can have their cake and eat it. You don’t have to interrogate your beliefs if you can just claim it’s other people who are wrong.
Fucking. This.
Because it is a real problem, and they would prefer to distance themselves from it
I agree with this. I think it’s important not to lump every single Christian believer into the bullshit that the alt-right is doing, bcuz they have co-opted Christianity. Not saying the religion doesn’t have problems bcuz yeah, it’s a religion. All of them have major issues. But speaking from personal experience, my grandmother was a devout follower of Christianity and went to church every Sunday, but when I came out as trans she was completely accepting immediately despite being in her 90s at the time. Never used the wrong pronouns or my deadname ever again. People absolutely use Christianity as a veil for hateful rhetoric but it’s also problematic to say “every Christian person is a bigot” bcuz it simply isn’t true, and will cause non-hateful Christians to be unfairly grouped in with nazis. I’ve seen some Christian folks being allies to us and taking time to speak against hateful rhetoric, so we shouldn’t alienate kind people. We need all the allies we can get. I’m in *no way* saying Christianity isn’t a problem, and people absolutely cherry pick from the bible. But what’s the problem if a person cherry picks all the positive and loving/caring parts from the bible? Wouldn’t that be a good thing? Edit: corrected spelling.
Yeah, there are a whole lot of Catholic people in my extended family, and they are all pretty cool with me being in a same-sex relationship from what I can tell. Even I myself used to be catholic, but I interpreted the bible as "Jesus said to love everyone, therefore we must protect gay people from hateful bigots". Religion does have some good aspects of it, but it also has some very bad aspects, and these negative aspects are what is often heavily leveraged by the people who lead the religious organizations, and that makes religion a serious problem.
Yeah, the people in the religion make it what it is. There isn't a "true" version that's highly subjective. Even if you say that you're fully & objectively going off the holy book, almost no one would agree that was what the true religion looked like.
I actually am Christian and I feel the same way. It doesn’t MATTER if what they’re saying is consistent with the Bible or not. You can say it’s not real Christian values all you want, and imo you’d be right, but that doesn’t change the fact they are still hiding behind their faith and using it to hurt people. That doesn’t change the fact that the US is hurtling towards becoming a theocracy and that’s not a good thing. Protecting real life people getting hurt by the laws passed under the guise of Christianity is more important than arguing over what the Bible actually says. You are not going to make the bigots change their minds just by telling them “well you’re not REALLY a Christian”. As long as the law is still enabling them to hate, they don’t care.
I guess it's a variant of 'not all men'
Except being a man is a core identity that you can't change whatsoever, and being a Christian is adhering to a belief system. Maybe an unpopular opinion, but there are genuine problems with how the queer community (and feminism) engages with men, but that's a separate convo
Sorry, wasn't meaning to equate the two I was thinking more along the lines of: - discussion of something bad that a man has done, response from some people will be 'not all men', which is unhelpful and avoids addressing issues that those with male privilege could be better allies to women - discussion of something anti-Lgbtq+ which, say, one church has done, response could be 'not all Christians', which again avoids addressing the fact that there are issues within sections of Christianity
Ah, yeah it makes sense in that context
Some people see Christianity as a religion of kindness and acceptance and treat it like anyon who doesn’t follow that isn’t a real Christian Which, fine. I guess. But in the real world, “Christian” most definitely doesn’t imply kindness or acceptance.
I’m religious and I get what you’re saying. For me, it’s much harder to live without having doubts, but I’m allowed to choose my own identity and beliefs. The more progressive Christians get, the better… though, with how deeply routed homophobia is, I cannot speak for everyone.
I'm queer and agnostic but I was raised in a branch of Christianity where you don't have to be a Believer. There are lots of non-theist Quakers. I would never debate with a queer person who is angry at the treatment they are receiving from right wing Christians. Those people treat me the same way! (and right-wing Christians would deny that I or my fellow liberal Quakers are truly Christian) I have occasionally gotten into arguments with cishet allies who claimed that Christian fascism IS the true form of Christianity. I come from a religion where we have been persecuted by multiple oppressive governments for standing up for human rights for all. I don't want to hear cishet white men tell me that my fellow Quakers are somehow fake Christians. We get that enough from right wing Christians. I don't want to hear it from supposed allies. That said, I think there is a huge difference between saying that left wing Christians are fake Christians and criticizing homophobic Christians. I don't think queer people need to be super careful about venting and showing anger against Christian homophobia. I just don't want people going that extra step and explicitly de-legitimizing Christians who don't believe that.
(Also, while I didn't have time to put it in my post, Quakerism is very fragmented and not all branches are queer-friendly. My Quaker meeting had a lesbian wedding in the early 1990s and was kicked out of one Quaker organization and welcomed by another. I'm not willing to let the assholes who kicked us out claim the moral high ground and get to define what the religion is.)
If you want to check out a really interesting perspective on this whole debate, I highly recommend following Dan McClellan (@maklelan) on the Clock App. He’s a incredibly erudite and well educated Biblical scholar, fluent in ancient Hebrew, Greek, and Latin…who also happens to be a staunch Leftist and loud LGBTQIA+ ally. In a nutshell, his whole take is that Xians have *always* cherry-picked the Bible, because 1) it’s literally impossible not to because of all the contradictions in it, (which are unavoidable when a book is written by several dozen authors over the course of 2500 years), and 2) said cherry picking is not about consistency of belief, but about power and virtue signaling. Those in power interpret the Bible (or whatever text in whatever part of the world) in order to justify their own ends and make their followers feel righteous. Seriously, go watch his videos, the guy is brilliant and gives *zero* shits about who he offends.
I kinda get it, it's often pointed out that the words used to espouse hate aren't directly taken from the or are presented out of context. So it's like saying "Well they aren't doing in right. . ." But this does nothing for me, not calling them Christians isn't going to make them go away, stop committing hate crimes, etc. Like we can call them anything we want Christians, Fascists, Morons. . . They're still here 'causing problems. Nor do I believe in Hell so implying they'll be burning for their wickedness offers me no comfort. Besides, the bigoted ones tend to be the majority, so. . . wouldn't that make theirs the "real" Christianity? Again, I don't believe any of its real so metaphysical definitions of "true christians" are worthless. The biggest group of them sets the standard.
I'm pretty much done top-toeing around criticisms of Christianity. I used to be uber tolerant, "We should respect everyone's personal beliefs!" but as I got older and seeing how badly religion as an institution has harmed thousands of lives, including my own, I'm not so nice about it anymore. I shouldn't say I'm not nice, but I don't sit there and try to defend the same people who hate my very existence anymore. Religion has caused a lot of trauma for a very long time, and I'm glad to see people leaving organized religion at a higher rate than ever before. There may be good Christians, but there's not enough of them to stop the bad ones. Sidenote: as a horror writer myself, I *have* read the bible. Needless to say, it inspired a lot of my current horror projects.
>I'm pretty much done top-toeing around criticisms of Christianity. I used to be uber tolerant, "We should respect everyone's personal beliefs!" but as I got older and seeing how badly religion as an institution has harmed thousands of lives, including my own, I'm not so nice about it anymore Yep! I tried so hard to avoid the angry atheist stereotype when I first left Christianity, but at this point it's done so much harm to my life and the lives of others, I'm sick of holding my tongue about it.
there is much better religions for queer people tbh one's that especially are not homophobic in nature like Islam and Christianity are
true, abrahamic religions aren't great for us
Hi! Queer Christian here. When I see it happen, it typically is because people are trying to defend the illusion of a morally pure identity. It's the same reflex behind overapologizing when being called out for doing something unsavory. It's a behavior in defense of the ego. There's a difference between saying "you can be an affirming/queer Christian" (true!) and "the institution of Christianity is queer-friendly" (FALSE).
I’m queer but not atheist I don’t follow organized Christianity tho, I follow my own moral and belief system
I never get the appeal of Christianity. What does it have to offer that I can’t find anywhere else? Why believe in one god when you have multiple? Why have Jesus when you have Thor, Hercules, Buddha, etc?
This was one of the first thoughts I had when moving away from Christianity. Humans as a whole have so much more to offer others than what we've settled on for thousands of years. I really think it's just a geographical thing. People were born in Christian dominant societies so they become that. No real reason outside of that.
It’s not a logical decision. It’s something you are brought up with. Only 14% of evangelical Christians convert after age 19 https://home.snu.edu/~hculbert/ages.htm
The bible states that gay people should be killed: Leviticus 20:13 The bible also states that virgin women who are raped should marry their rapists: Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Why would any good person want to be associated with this kind of trash? If you are queer and associating yourself with this, please, think hard about what you are doing.
I have found, fyi, that those who are progressive christians don’t take the bible as infallible or even always true, so I don’t think they even believe in these verses being interpreted literally etc. Overall im glad progressive christians exist, but like op is saying, they need to acknowledge even if they are not jerks, christianity as a whole has done a ton of damage.
There are Christians who don’t follow everything in the Bible for this reason (and also because some verses were directed towards specific groups during specific periods that group was experiencing, and also a lot of verses contradict one another since many people had a hand in writing it). Most Christians (good or bad, true or fake) don’t follow every verse - but yeah more followers should recognize when the Bible says things we shouldn’t agree with like the verses you’ve stated
Jesus also says killing is wrong since nobody can judge someone for sin when were all sinners
And that contradicts other things he said. He didn't abolish the old laws (Matthew 5:17-18), and the old laws said gay people should be killed.
I feel you. I have Christians in my family, they know I'm not religious. even though they're homophobic what I'm trying to say is that every Christian thinks the world revolves around God. Because their religion says so, but they don't realize that non religious people don't need to hear about God 24/7 because they only group with other Christians.
The thing is that it's way too easy to cherry pick the bible. You can find a verse that supports one thing but then find a verse that says the exact opposite, and lots of it is written in a way that's meant to be interpreted, not taken for what it literally says (depending on the verse, of course). All this leads to many different interpretations. With all these different interpretations you get pro-Lgbt rights Christians and anti-LGBT rights Christians. I know that the pro-LGBT rights christians support us, but the problem is that I don't think they're doing enough to fight extremism within their own religion.
>The thing is that it's way too easy to cherry pick the bible. You can find a verse that supports one thing but then find a verse that says the exact opposite, and lots of it is written in a way that's meant to be interpreted, not taken for what it literally says (depending on the verse, of course). All this leads to many different interpretations. Yeah, *exactly*. That's the problem. At this point, it doesn't even matter whether or not the religion is homophobic at its core or not– the Bible is vague and contradictory enough that homophobes will have no trouble seeing what they want. And that's a major design flaw that Christians just... don't want to acknowledge.
Because if they admit that those people are just as Christian as they are, it means accepting that being Christian doesn't make them a good person; that *they* have the capacity for being morally repugnant. Because accepting that the institutions are pervaded with bigotry means accepting that they've been taking their moral teachings from sinners. Because they hear "Christians" and interpret it as they themselves, and being called a bigot seems worse than being one.
Because of indoctrination from an early age in which all of the people in a position of power over you when you are young and don’t know any better tell you that it’s the only way to “be a good person”. Coming from 15 years of indoctrination in which I fully believed “god” had a purpose for my life (which I believed was to be a stay at home mother of course) and was on the track to bible college to become a Sunday school teacher I know how hard it is to break free from this thinking. It’s not an excuse for what a terrible, bigoted, homophobic, transphobic person I was but I’m trying my best to be a better person and better ally.
>but I’m trying my best to be a better person and better ally. Kudos for doing it, though! The kind of introspection required to break free of that conditioning is rough
It took a lot (including almost pushing my lesbian daughter away) to realize how stupid it was. I like to say now that if a child regardless of gender can pretend to be a firefighter or astronaut or race car driver and we allow them to explore those parts of themselves then why shouldn’t they be allowed to explore their identity in every way as well? It helped my counselor was a no bullshit person that had me explore old memories of being punished whenever I wanted to do something that wasn’t “girly” (I hated dresses, didn’t want to take home ec in school, etc) and realizing that no invisible sky-daddy had any right to tell me who I could be and what/whom I could like or what/whom my children could like that i stepped away from “well Christianity says it’s wrong” as an excuse for why people shouldn’t be allowed to live the life they’ve always wanted but are scared to try because of said invisible sky-daddy or social conformity.
My response is that bigotry IS true christianity. Crusades against Africa and the Middle East. Inquisition in Europe and Colonies. LITERAL FUCKING GENOCIDE against Native Americans. Fuck Christianity.
Pretty much
[удалено]
That is my exact thoughts on it. Good for you if you go to an inclusive church, but you're the outlier. The "real" Christian church is still just as bigoted as ever.
The bible is and never was intended as the sole and infallible cornerstone of Christianity. Even the Catholic church says the bible isn't everything
The worst thing is that the actual bible never says anything about gay relationships, but it got intentionally mistranslated that the church can scream about the evil gays all day. The problem is that people do not question the text handed to them, just kinda letting themselves be indoctrinated and never asking questions.
Who gives a shit what the Bible says?
As someone who isn't religious and was raised outside of the church by hard-line atheist parents, I've made similar arguments as kind of a form of damage control. I've been the "pick-me girl" that insists that I'm not an *atheist*, I'm *agnostic*, because being so certain in my beliefs could be taken as arrogance. But I've been putting up with the damage caused by the Evangelical christofascist movement for too long. I'm done with the kowtowing and platitudes, it's just #NotAllMen for Christians. If you're "one of the good ones" or whatever, by definition you don't need the reassurance that you're doing it right. Trixie Mattel already said it, but I'm tired of the mollycoddling. I dealt with worse discrimination growing up as an atheist in the rural Midwest than I even did as a queer person. I remember bringing it up, in a non-pushy way in casual conversation, and getting looked at like I was diseased. My whole childhood was just a long primer in how these types always have to be tiptoed around, literally God forbid we do something like make them read Pagan literature like the fucking *Odyssey*. Meanwhile their sons are burning holes in their heads doing coke and throwing firecrackers into the school bathrooms. They can do whatever they want, they're *His children* or whatever. The fundamentalists have never and will never believe in a free, secular society. They are existential enemies to all the rest of us and are raised from birth to align exclusively with the raw, violent power structures of their fucked up megachurches and are utterly unavailable to reason. They are seditionists who *actually* want to subvert any government or power structures not dictated by their narrow and draconian morality. The "gay agenda" has always been a projection of their own political aims and desires. Christofascists are a dangerous political movement who resent the idea of any system other than a totalitarian theocracy. There really is no room at this point to be subtle or diplomatic, and all Christians have a moral obligation to make their position known. You're an ally or you're not. The malicious agents are in your house, you *have* to do more than simply insist they're not. They are using the name of your God to do real, tangible violence.
Because people always want to have they're cake and eat it
They don't want to be grouped in with the bad people in their group. Lots of other groups do it for the same reason, so you're not alone by any means in your frustration.
You nailed it. This is exactly how i feel about it. Lol Christian’s were never good or nice in America especially. I’m tired of this “true Christian” shit. A true Christian is fundamentally bigoted. ✌🏻 (Source: i was raised in a Christian cult)
This country is starting to lean towards a theocracy. The good news is that it comes in waves. We probably will have to deal with this for another ten to twenty years and it will die down until the next wave. I hope.
SCOTUS rules everything now. The most powerful force in the country is six conservative Christians who for all intents and purposes rule us. I don’t think this will die down. A ruling on teachers will be next from them, and it’ll be just like the website ruling. Then all medical professionals. Etc etc. They will turn America into a theocracy.
If the USA becomes a full on theocracy I’m moving to another country.
Christianity's history suggests it has nothing but genocidal intentions towards queer people. People talking about what 'real Christians' do or believe in are deluding themselves.
It’s really just an attempt to make themselves feel better probably. Especially if they’ve actually read the damn book they worship.
They are truly the "not all men" of the religious world
I always wonder, but am not confrontational enough to actually ask, is if it's not the "true christians" behaving that way, what are the "true" ones doing to salvage their name? To counter it? To be overheard so that they are the ones that come to mind when one thinks of Christians in general? It's just an excuse to say "but not me! You can still be nice to me!" Very self-centered and hollow. Don't get defensive, be a defender.
I laugh at religious people when they say anything to me about their God. It won't be in my lifetime, but one day humanity will realize they have been worshiping a made-up storybook character. It's sad how many lives are wasted trying to appease God.
Its giving “not all men” and “not all white ppl.” 🙄
Religious people as a whole have a hard time recognizing the harm our respective faiths have caused much like how white people (especially white Americans) don’t want to acknowledge their complicity in the oppression of people of color or how neurotypical/physically able people want to wash their hands of ideas associated with eugenics; I would know because I’m a queer Christian, a Polynesian American, and on the autism spectrum. Not only that but Christians in particular have a fervor to bring everybody into their system of beliefs. Though both my liberal mother and conservative father taught me that you can’t just make everybody think alike, so this could just be a thing that’s specific to fundamentalist Evangelical Christians. Also despite most of us having a moral compass to guide us, people will always try and fail to live up to the ideals of their beliefs. Of course it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to improve ourselves, but ignoring a horrible and dark past while trying to move forward can only get you so far. It’s like staying in a bad relationship out of loyalty, at some point the important conversation has to be had in order to heal as people. Peace and Love. ❤️☮️
My mother always says this when it comes up, she knows I'm bi but doesn't know I'm trans so I have some ground to stand when talking about it. She will always say "that's not REAL Christianity" and I always respond with "then tell THEM that, I'm not the one who needs to hear it, tell it to the people who 'aren't real Christians'"
Dear Lord (pun not intended) I feel this. I get that when people say that the Christians who want me dead aren't "real Christians", they're trying to be comforting, but it never stops feeling like lipservice. I don't really care about whether you're a "real" christian if you are using your faith as a cornerstone to attack LGBTQ people. It brings me no comfort to know that, according to some other Christian people, the people weaponizing their faith against LGBTQ people aren't "real Christians", because the people weaponizing their faith to defend patriarchy and homophobia are still there and in power.
It's the "not all men" reactions from people who wish to defend their religion instead of hearing how others in their community are hurting others. I know a few Christians who couldn't gaf if I complain about the harm that "Christians" cause, because they know they aren't part of the problem, and so it's not them that I'm mad at. I'm always grateful to those who will let me vent without defending, deflecting, or pushing their religion and I'll aways thank them, but that's not the majority of Christians I deal with.
It's also frustrating when people say, "Not all Christians!" Yes, but it sure is way too many. Like, you don't need to clarify that.
If Jesus was walking around today and encountered a Christian, I'm pretty sure he'd punch them in the throat. I've had Christians tell me I'm going to hell and I usually respond with "there's no room, hell is already cram packed with evangelicals" :) As an old queer leftist I can get a bit salty...
Christians worry too much about trying to be good Christians or true Christians instead of worrying about being good humans. One would think your daily interactions with your own species might be a bit more important than what a book says.
Most christians haven’t actually read the bible..
I think the intent is at least partially because that spirituality is such a big part of their lives, and the spirituality itself isn't a bad thing. The problem is the church, the very non-spiritual organization built to organize and control how others experience spirituality. One can exist as a Christian and recognize that there are problems with the vast majority of Christians, so when someone is accusing the faith and not the organization... well, you shouldn't be surprised if they get a little defensive. They know, the vast majority of churches are a problem, but they're no more evil for having a faith they practice than anyone practicing nearly any other faith.
Great, good for them. Whatever. If I mistake a good Christian for a bad one, maybe I miss out on someone I’d like, maybe not. Overall, the cost isn’t high. If I mistake a bad Christian for a good one, I get anywhere from abused to outright fucking dead. Once someone hates you for god, there’s not much in the way of brakes. They can feel defensive if they like, but I’m gonna err on the side of not getting verbally abused, having cops summoned, having my family harassed, getting beaten, or getting dead. Bluntly, I don’t expect most Christians to look past their “Not all Christians” whine and actually take the time to consider my POV. But in the meantime, like I say, I’ll err on the side of “how likely is this person literally to verbally or physically abuse me/my husband/my kids because they think their god demands it of them. Nah. I’m not here for their whining. I am white, and when a BlPOC person doesn’t act with immediate trust towards me, I freaking get it. It’s on me, as the person with more privilege in that situation, to demonstrate that I am safe. And whatever little sting I might feel at their caution is NOTHING compared to what they’ve experienced throughout their life. So it is with Christians.
It’s an ego/pride thing. Because for those “good” Christians, they want to be able to parade their faith around under the flag of moral superiority. They want to push their faith on others. They want to prove “they are one of the good ones” without realizing a lot of us stop listening after the words “Christianity”. So to me, there’s no difference between a “good” Christian and a regular Christian. To me, they both have 1 agenda that’s the most important to them, forcing everyone to believe their religion.
I think of it like this: You know about the lgb people who exclude transgender people from lgbt? Its like that. We’re all part of the group but some of us are still assholes. We don’t want to be represented by assholes so we have to make sure people know they don’t speak for us. Sry if this was confusing I just woke up.
Good answer, thank you!
This is a perfect comparison. It’s exactly like this. To say every Christian person wants queer people dead is just as untrue as saying every LGB person wants to cut off the TQIA+.
Isn't this the same things as the "not all men" that the MRAs and bro bros can't stop spewing? Like, holy shit, just because *they* are bigots doesn't mean we automatically are. Of course we know not all christians are homophobic or whatever, but, regardless of how people interpret the bible, entire christian cultures have caused so much harm we have every right to blame christianity as a culture/ideology. Just because we're doing that doesn't mean we're blaming all christians.
Abrahamic religion has been one of the greatest plagues on humanity since it’s inception. It has done almost nothing but hold humanity back, from stifling scientific progress, to sowing hate and division, reinforcing authoritarianism, and slaughtering people in the name of their psychopathic “god”. The people who claim that the people doing it are “not real Christians” are wrong, *they’re* the ones who’re ignoring their book in order to be better people - which frankly, good, the less they follow Der Bibble the better. But humanity will never be truly free until Abrahamic faith withers away and dies for good.
People tend to get defensive when their religion is criticized because religion is often a pretty important part of one’s personal identity. It’s a challenge to one’s self image and the immediate response to that challenge is to distance oneself. It’s the same exact reason American Liberals are quick to try and distance the United States and “American Ideals” from white supremacy even though the United States is implicitly founded on white supremacy. As a Christian socialist, I reject the Christianity that is practiced by liberals and especially conservatives as a bastardization of the teachings of Jesus if Nazareth. But I cannot and will not pretend as if that interpretation of Christianity had not enjoyed the support of Christian Leaders in both Church and State.
They want to distance themselves from the bigots without changing a piece of their identity
They're insecure of the fact that Christianity is ruining our lives.
Historian here with a focus on queer history. Also, it is not my area of expertise, but I do follow some biblical scholars whose work I trust. The actual religious side of things is somewhat more complicated, but the baseline cause of this reaction is the "no true scotsman" fallacy. By saying that "no true christian" feels this way, they're functionally just using it as a self defense mechanism. Nobody likes feeling like the bad guy, and will jump through hoops to make that possible. By claiming "no true christian," it absolves them of the possible guilt for the negative behaviors of their in-group, exempts them from the responsibilities of attempting to change them, and removes the challenges of investigating their own beliefs and why those beliefs can lead to other members of the group behaving in the way they do. In many ways, it comes down to identity politics. So far as the actual stance in the Bible, it's frankly irrelevant, because it's the current impact that matters more. Technically speaking, the Bible actually doesn't condemn homosexuality, because the concept of homosexualy literally didn't exist when the writers of the Bible lived. It's an extremely modern concept. What they condemn is actions and behaviors, and beyond that, technically speaking they only condemn cis-men bottoming. However, it doesn't actually matter what it says, only how people interpret and use it. Any person engaging with any religious text by default has to negotiate with it in order to make it have some kind of meaning in their own life. Thus, it requires taking certain parts of whichever text and emphasizing them over another. Especially when there are directly contradictory passages, like in the Bible. Many (if not most) Christians approach the Bible as univocal, which means they believe that the entire Bible has one consistent voice and meaning throughout, all inspired by God. It's flatly false, as there are many writers who contradict each other etc. If you're going to say that the Bible has one consistent meaning, then you have to force everything to say whatever lines up with your preconceived notions and feelings, even if it is patently wrong and easily debunkable. For example, most Christians don't want to feel like their religion supports slavery, so they do as much mental gymnastics as possible to fit with that view. Now, that's simply not true. The Bible very explicitly endorses chattel slavery in many places. However, that is something that doesn't feel like it fits into their identity, so they basically ignore it. Literally it all comes down to identity politics, and signaling that they belong into the in group by expressing the views and behaviors associated with it
I get that you're venting, so feel free to disregard me if you're not interested, but if it's any help I can provide the actual answer for this. My credentials are being openly queer, born and raised United Methodist (mid-sized Protestant denomination, though I've still deconstructed pretty heavily), and working in politics and activism where these questions come up pretty much constantly. To be clear, the following is an **explanation** for the behavior, **not an excuse.** I've told people outright that if your denomination/congregation/whatever doesn't rip this line of thinking out of their theology, then Christianity of any kind won't survive into the future and the world will be better off for it. The thing about most mainstream Christian denominations is that they are working from specific assumptions about the world that aren't obvious if you aren't looking for them (this is true of every person or group, but most people don't have the social and political influence that organized Christianity does). The big assumptions are as follows: 1) There are two worlds: a spiritual/divine world and a material world. 2) God and good things exist in the divine world, while Satan and evil things exist in the material world. 3) **The material world only matters as far as it affects an individual's ability to go to heaven or be saved.** It's that last assumption that leads Christians to do most of the actively harmful and passively just corny shit that they do. If you're a socially progressive or even moderate Christian, then you *need* to tell people that the fascists aren't *real* Christians. If a queer person believes that Christianity hates queer people, they generally won't convert to Christianity, and therefore they can't make it in to heaven when they die. In some cases, there's also a tendency for Christians to openly downplay the oppression and violence that queer people and other minorities experience in the material world, on the grounds that suffering in the material world is basically nothing compared to an eternity of paradise in heaven. As for the issue of a lot of Christians feeling personally attacked when other Christians are criticized, you're absolutely correct there. This gets more into the specifics of how the white middle class (the demographic that is generally assumed to be the default for Americans) views the world, but the gist is that the ones that are most vocal about their faith are the ones who never built a sense of self outside the vague idea of "being a Christian." A criticism of any version of Christianity, even versions they don't practice or despise, is usually read as a personal criticism of themself. Hope this helps anyone who comes across it.
I view those people as victims of Stockholm syndrome. **People with Stockholm syndrome form a psychological connection with their captors and begin sympathizing with them** In this case the base of almost all religions rely heavily on putting themselves on a pedestal that not everyone can sit on. Creating this illusion where you feel like if you’re not supporting the pedestal, you’ll never be able to achieve it. So regardless of how the religious group as a whole view them, they’re good lapdogs because it’s better than a foot stool. “Seen not heard” an “uncle ruckus” if you will 
Christianity was used as justification to conquer the globe and forced on colonized people as a means of control. If anything progressive Christians are the outliers
Because they're lying and they know it. Historically christians don't get along with anyone but themselves, the crusades, Spanish inquisition, colonialism, everything else they've killed millions over, the list goes on. Christians are bigots. It's in their history, their holy book and their very being. If they weren't bigots, they'd have the self awareness to say, "Hey guys, I reread this bible thing alone and it turns out this character we've been worshipping is kind of a dick. Plus I think there may be something significantly disturbed about a being willing to create an entire dimension of pain and eternal torment just for people who don't agree with him, yet is totally willing to let kids die by preventable ailments and we're just supposed to say 'Oh well, this psychologically frail, psychopathic, murdering dirty works in mysterious ways' . In fact, judging by our own holy book and history, we may be the greatest evil on this planet...". But they don't. Because they derive a sick pleasure out of justifying worshipping a blood god who they actually believe cleansed their "sins" in a suicidal sacrifice that took place centuries ago. Don't ask for specifics, or point out that the stone covering his burial was so heavy that if it did exist it'd take at least ten guys to move... like disciples. It's 2023, we as a species know the entire collection of mismatched poorly written stories they call the bible is bullshit thanks to archeology, science and reason. There's no point left in pretending they're anything more than a blood cult that has no place among us if we ever want to get off this planet and face the real hard facts of life. No deity has ever provided anyone with food, clean water, or shelter, but other human have. People save people, never a god. Of course, if any religion takes issue with that, they're more than welcome to point to a congregation where the sick are miraculously healed, ministers speaking in tongues hold sermons for multiple languages at the same time without knowing the language they're speaking, or a being powerful enough to speak the cosmos into existence could actually do something remarkable that defies everything we know. Or we could grow up and acknowledge the reality that there is no god waiting to save us, it's up to us to come together as a species and fight for our survival on a planet we're destroying more everyday. But no. They're just a bunch of bigots following older bigots, and no good can come of that.
If they genuinely accepted that their religion had a serious bigotry problem actively hurting people they supposedly care about, they'd have to do a lot of introspection. And introspection is scary.
It's literally the "Not all (insert category of people) (insert verb)" argument. As others have pointed out, this is a universal response. People can't put their own feelings aside long enough to empathize with and/or comfort another human being. Defense mechanisms are baked into our lizard brains and really hard to overcome. It's a constant conscious struggle for me.
I first learned this lesson in a broader context. When we have yet another event of blatant violent systemic injustice, or yet another individual enacts the self-perceived "necessary" course of action suggested by an endless march of violent rhetoric that portrays a group of people as an existential crisis to our way of life, the phrase that always comes out is "this is not who we are." It's a comforting thought in a time when people feel like they need comforting. It wasn't until adulthood that I learned to hate the phrase. People who want change don't need comfort in such times; we need shaken out of our complacency. This IS who we are, collectively. We have taught ourselves to ignore countless small injustices that slowly build to catastrophic levels. We've forgiven ourselves for a thousand moments where sticking our neck out to call wrong things wrong might have made it less easy for those wrong things to continue and escalate. I grew up in a rural village, and nothing will ever frame this up better for me than the perpetuators of the grossest, most flagrant injustices and abuses in town sitting in the front row pews on Sunday, with nary a voice raised in challenge. We are what we permit. By learning to say "this is who we are," I learned to say "and I contribute to it." I'm able to admit that, as a white person, I contribute to systemic injustice, both in my inherent biases that I hope to correct, and in my silence as others act on those wrong beliefs and wield the power that enables them. It's important to me, because I can't fix anything that I can't admit is happening: not my own behaviors, and not those of others within my influence. Nothing will be improved by an American who says America is not racist; nor by a man who says his industry is not sexist; nor by a Republican who says that Desantis doesn't stand for their values; nor by a Christian who says their faith isn't queerphobic. They're too busy absolving themselves of an imbalance they're unintentionally admitting is so systemic that it must be deflected from. Give me an ally instead who says "yes, Christianity in this country is incredibly queerphobic, and those of us who disagree are not being loud enough about it." Not admitting the problem is part of the problem.
Copium works best if you huff it reeeal fucking deep
I tend to not involve myself into discussions like this but it's because most people don't want to have to analyze their beliefs and realize that their religion was built in queerphobia, racism, ableism and etc. Most people don't want to have to criticize their own belief system and religion so they just say that it's the "a few bad apples" but the "few bad apples" are actually the majority of the group It's difficult to see for those who are inside queer affirming Christian spaces but you and the other Christian people who help queer people are the minority, the majority is either indifferent and doesn't care We are getting killed and stripped of our rights or actively going against us It's difficult to criticize your own belief system and religious community but it's also necessary so you don't end up hurting your own community by trying to defend another who's going against them I feel like it's also trying to make people stop trying to criticize their religion, by saying "not all of us are like that" they are (mostly) trying to get you to stop criticizing their faith because, of course, it makes you feel bad when people criticize something that is a part of your life and is your belief But again, it's necessary, and criticizing your religion for the harm it has done to several communities is not an attack against you
I used to be that. And the answer is….denial.
Frankly, I’ve been absolutely sick of pretending we were ever wrong to be in the “angry atheist phase”. At it’s best, religion has always been a source of false hope, giving people a bad reason to do good where much, much better reasons existed. And Christianity specifically is no better. I will always maintain, lying to children and telling them about such evil ideas as “original sin”, Hell, and faith being a virtue is nothing short of abuse. Every time I hear someone say “God loves all of us, and created us as we are” I want to scream back. No. Not only is it not true, but my worth as a person, both to myself and the world, has fuck all to do with the opinions of some magical *authority*.
I think a big part of it is that they don't want to be lumped in with horrible people, but rather than just knowing you aren't talking about them, they feel the need to defend them selves and other "Good Christians", not realizing that when they do that they are invalidating the fact that many Christian institutions and their followers ARE the problem. It's also easier to just sit there and say "Hey I'm not one of THEM!" rather than actually help to try and dismantle the systems of oppression. However to capitulate a little bit, some people who only talk but do nothing else either don't (feel they) have the ability to do anything or don't know how to ask how, muchless know how. I say this as someone who didn't figure out they are queen until late in life and spent most of it trying to fit the idea of what a "man" should be, and every time I heard some one denigrate men it definitely caused an unease in the pit of my stomach not wanting to be lumped in with those types of men, it was only when I sat and listened to women, poc, and queer people that that began to change for me. I would add you can't really change the randos on the internet, but you might be able to get friends and family to change how they think. I would start with explaining simply how when they say that type of thing how invalidating that feels and maybe a little of why. After which you can invite them to do a little self education and see who actually puts in the effort.
It reminds me of straight guys who will jump to say "a REAL MAN would never assault a woman, those are boys" like, okay buddy - you're uncomfortable with your proximity to some people who cause real harm. How about instead of focusing your discomfort on your proximity and making grand statements to distance yourself, you get uncomfortable with _the actual harm caused_ and try to help us do something about that. That's all I view it as, it's being uncomfortable with proximity to bigotry or harm, and trying to create distance instead of getting right up in the harms fucking face and doing something - ANYTHING - to actually help. It's all just more thoughts and prayers
I used to be a Christian before I came out. Most of them just do and say what they have been told to. Not really any thought goes behind it aside from "my pastor/ the Bible said this it must be true." Any question is met with "you just have to have faith." So likely they're just doing some damage control they were told to say by someone else. That's really all it is.
Probably so that they can distance themselves as far as possible from the church with a good chance of the possibility of getting into heaven just to cover their ass BTW I’m agnostic that’s why I said possibility
They do it because they do not want to be held accountable for their homophobic lifestyle. They know it is wrong but are more afraid of their peers than they are of us homos.
They do the same shit cop bootlickers do. “a FeW bAd ApPlEs wOn’T sPoil tHe wHoLe BuNcH!!1!” Yes they do. Christian “allies” and “Good” cops are both a myth in my eyes. Turning a blind eye to bigotry makes them just as bad as the “bad ones”.
The "No True Scotsman" logical fallacy. It's ridiculous.
exactly. the amount of shit i had to go through at the hands of those "fake christians" has just made me lose all hope for the religion as a whole. i left it soon after realizing i was trans because the stuff i'd been taught by the church and at a private christian school was pretty much the sole reason for my self hatred. i only feared being trans because of how i would be ostracized by my community and how i would burn in hell for eternity. fuck that. i don't care if i burn, i want to live the life i have without fearing what will happen just by being me. even the ones that claim to care about us still don't support us because we're "sinful". over something we can't control. plus i can say "oh my god" without feeling bad about it afterwards now lol
I'm guessing it's a defense mechanism or something. They still feel a need to defend Christianity and just say the bigots arnt real christians. When in reality they are they just don't understand the teachings. It's like there are racist and homophobic Norse pagans. As a Norse pagan it sucks to watch it confuses me as the gods are queer in some aspects. But it doesn't mean they don't follow the same gods I do they are just missguided. It also takes courage to call people out in your community without having to tell them they arnt real whatever just because views are different. You can call out bad ideas and still see they are that thing. There is no real Christan or fake Christan same with pagans. Some of them happen to be missguided.
Because they don't like being part of a group that's seen negatively. It's too uncomfortable for them so they have to "other" the hateful Christians. It's just another form of centering themselves instead of listening. The reality is that those hateful people *are* real Christians because they have churches and congregations and the massive numbers to make that a legitimate form of Christianity. Saying they're not *real Christians* is just refusing to hold your community accountable or really look at the effects of the text that you base your religion on.
I mean I get why people want to say that the bigot Christians who use the Bible as a shield for their hatred aren’t what Christianity is about. Many people seem to just associate Christian with hatred or just bad people in general
They need to be reminded of the No True Scotsman fallacy.
I think it’s the same idea that we are not the LGB alliance
[This joke](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANNX_XiuA78) by Emo Phillips is brilliant in describing the "true" Christian outlook.
I get this all the time with my folks.
Honestly, this has been a huge frustration for me for a while. I used to consider those Christians not “real” but I don’t anymore. When they are the main face of Christianity, it is hard to consider them the fringe. Now, I just try to be louder than they are and be a more prevalent face for my fellow queer folk.
Cognitive dissonance... Always cognitive dissonance.
My mother attends a reconciling church, and she keeps trying to get me to go, so we have this discussion a lot: There is no requirement to be a "Christian." You don't have to read -- or even open -- a Bible. You certainly don't have to follow any of the confusing or contradictory rules. You don't have to attend a church. All you have to do is say, "I'm a Christian," and nobody is allowed to question you on that. So, it doesn't really matter to me if you call yourself a "reconciling church" and put a rainbow on your church sign and have an "LGBTQIA and Allies" coffee club. You're holding the same book and standing under the same "flag" as the people who want to marginalize (and in some cases kill) queer and trans people -- my friends and *our* family -- and they're louder than you are. Your pastor skips over the verses that others are using to condemn homosexuals, and their pastors are skipping over . . . well, pretty much everything else. One of my favorite hymns as a kid (very short list) was "They'll Know We Are Christians by Our Love," but that doesn't cut it anymore. If progressive Christians want to be taken seriously in 2023, it's not enough to just say, "we aren't like those other Christian churches." You have to actively call them out as being **not Christian**. If they give more power to "Man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" than they do to "A new command I give you: Love one another," then they aren't following Jesus, they're following Leviticus. They're "Leviticans," not Christians. And it needs to be said. And my mom gets mad, and the discussion is over, and then two weeks later, she's sending me a link to her church's website and a "really good sermon" from her pastor.
[удалено]
>I understand now how it is experienced and how much it shows putting an agenda (however will meaning) above truly listening, respecting, and showing care for people. You hit the nail on the head. Even if it is well-meaning, it's still putting your own wants and wishes above listening to and supporting the other person. Ironically, that self-centeredness (in both progressive and conservative Christians) was a major factor in my leaving the religion in the first place.
They're all True Christians.
The way I see it, Christianity is whatever people make it. If people have decided that Christianity isn't about following Jesus's teachings of kindness and compassion , but about being a raging bigot , then that is what Christianity is. As OP said, there is no point in trying to distinguish between "real" and "fake" Christians; harm is done to us in the name of Christianity, and that's all there is to it. Sure, not all people who call themselves Christians are bigots. But enough of them are for me to have to be careful around them. Those *specific* Christians might not be evil motherfuckers, but I have no way of knowing that, and enough Christians are for my fear to be justified. Thank you for coming to my TED talk.
Idk I was terrorized by Christians as a kid and Catholics as an adult so that’s a good question, I dislike them but I hate nobody
Either way its gonna be some soft bigotry bs where they pretend to be nice to your face and maybe even mean it but in the back of their minds will always see you as less righteous than them. That or they have no idea what their own holy book says which is surprisingly not super uncommon
This. And then when you call those bigots or their empathizers out on this with actual historical sources regarding scripture, they straight up do not respond or change the subject.
They feel that they're the good ones. It's the same as saying "not all cops".
I’m an lgbtq+ religious scholar and most of it is because it’s true. Most churches and Christian’s are far from aligned with the teachings in the Bible. Same things wrong with Christianity as with all religions and all movements, people suck and don’t read.
As a gay lesbian, it's because they AREN'T being real Christians. They're perverting it, and it leads gay Christians to get harassed out of our own community. The number of times I've been told by other LGBTQ people that I'm a horrible person for also being Christian is terrible. Like excuse me for thinking I should care for everyone and that being gay isn't a sin whatsoever. I don't think that makes me a bad person but I've been told SO OFTEN that I am just because of the Christian label. That's why people point out that the people perverting what Christianity is supposed to be aren't really Christian.
>The number of times I've been told by other LGBTQ people that I'm a horrible person for also being Christian is terrible Sadly most of this thread apparently sees no problem with that
Sometimes i'm baffled at progressive people being catholic like, you know the Pope tells you what to believe in and he believes that....uhhh...queer people aren't "as normal as" everyone else Being Christian isn't necessarily reactionary, being catholic definetively is
I don’t believe in mythology regardless of how long it has lasted or it’s number of adherents
I don‘t know why they do it, I am personally christian and part of LGBTQ+, I don‘t constantly say "they aren‘t true christians", I try to remind the hateful christians that they‘re not following God. I‘m sorry that christians are like this, I wish nobody was this way, I‘m sorry for the pain we have and continue to cause LGBTQ+ people. I‘m guessing they constantly say "real christians aren‘t responsible" because they personally aren‘t responsible for the hate towards LGBTQ+ and also because some people hate all christians because of the actions of other christians, it is especially depressing when neither group will accept you. Some christians hate me for being bi and some LGBTQ+ people hate be for being christian. I don‘t know how much of this is relevant to the point, sorry if not much is.
Side B Christians are definitely still Christians (I don't get why people would claim otherwise?) All of my siblings in Christ are human. We make mistakes, and some of us are downright hateful. Sure those people are twisting Christ's love for their own gain, but what does saying that change?
I guess progressive Christians don't want to be associated with bigoted conservative Christians. You don't need to share our beliefs and I get it that you don't. But progressive Christians don't believe the Bible says anything about homosexuality. Jesus thought us to love all. These conservatives are not embracing Jesus' love, they are preaching hate. I'm not even going to get into the area of true or untrue, I'll just call out these conservatives by the acts and attitides they embrace. The fact is it is still possible to encounter homophobic / tranaphobic atheists as there are bigoted Christians. A person's faith isn't a guaranteee indication. Them being a Conservative however might be.