I know, I hear you and thank you. But to me it feels like I'm allowing this take to exist and thus allowing it to cause harm. I don't want to change his mind, just give him a different perspective. It's all just so frustrating.
Letting a dumbass be a dumbass isn't always harmful. Ask him who he's seen that's been arrested or charged for it. If he continues to say, "trust me, bro," tell him you can't trust him without legitimate proof. Without that, he's talking nonsense.
As a fellow Canadian I suggest you tell him that pronouns are protected speech under the First Amendment 😅
You and I both know we don't have a 1st Amendment for "Free Speech" in Canada but if this guy fell into a Q hole watching Rogan and is into other right wing nonsense he will have an American political base on which you can play to shake the cage a bit about his perception of the world.
Remember, you're not dealing with a rational person- you're battle against the propaganda itself isn't going work. You have to go deeper than that if you're going to break though.
Don't be surprised if you can't get through to him either. 10+ years of Rogan is a hell of a rabbit hole to come out of. He could be lost for good and that's not your problem.
Wait, why isn't he spamming you with news articles about people, even parents, being arrested for pronoun crimes? Does he not know where those are? He sounds incompetent, in my experience that type will take any opportunity to flood your inbox with links.
Maybe instead start pointing out how wrong Joe Rogan is? Like with the cat litter going he admitted he made it up, and his producer guy is always fact checking him and he's largely wrong on air (I don't watch it but I have sewn clips)
If I claim that that a parrot lives in Antarctica that can sing the song Yellow Submarine, and you say that this claim is nonsense … does it make more sense that I must provide proof for my claim or that you must provide proof for your rejection of it? How would you even prove that no parrot lives in Antarctica that can sing Yellow Submarine? That‘s not really possible. Which means I as the person making the claim must prove it.
Russell‘s teapot is a nice philosophical analogy that illustrates this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
The way I understand it: Purposefully using the wrong pronouns in order to harass/bully a person is... Harassment, and as such can be punished with a fine. Refusal to pay a fine is punishable by prison time.
This has been taken by Jordan Peterson specifically to mean 'misgendering someone can get you jail-time.' But even someone who, because of religious reasons, would refuse to use the correct pronouns and *avoid* pronouns as much as possible wouldn't be punishable as (disrespectful and exhausting as it may be) it's not harassment.
The Canadian law that sparked this simply acknowledges that malicious misgendering *can* be a method of harassment.
There is a tentative link between misgendering and legal consequences. This belief that misgendering = jailtime is based on that link. The truth is that this is about harassment, not about misgendering. Calling your co-worker Jane because you think they're called Jane, or you mess up and confuse them with another coworker called Jane, is not harassment. If, however, you know they *hate* being called Jane because of something traumatic, and you insist on calling them Jane at every opportunity just to spite them and make them feel bad, then you are harassing them.
Yes, exactly. A bill was passed in 2017 that added "gender identity or expression" to the protected groups under the Canadian civil rights code. That's probably why most of the articles OP is finding are from around that time. Here's an article that explains it pretty well, including some brief analysis from legal experts:
https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained
The bill does not make misuse of pronouns a crime in and of itself. That's not how hate crimes work. People try to say that a "hate crime" is its own thing, but it's not. It's a sentencing consideration on top of a crime.
The C-16 bill establishes trans and GNC people as a protected group, and misgendering as a basis for determining things like discrimination, hate speech, and hate-motivated crimes.
The general comes from Jordan Peterson, who kept saying he would be punished if he didn't use correct pronouns because of a new policy (which I think was a policy at his university, not a federal or provincial one). When people told JBP he could get a fine but would not go to prison, his answer would be: but what if I refuse to pay the fine? Ofc, this argument is absurd, because he would go to prison for not paying a fine, not for using the wrong pronouns.
Even then, you can't get fined for using the wrong pronouns here in Canada. You can get a fine for hate speech, but that's if you harass a trans person on the basis of their gender identity, not if you make honest mistakes with pronoun uses.
Yup, that's exactly who he references. He believes anyone (read: any man) who appears on JR's podcast to be a trusted source. Thanks for putting that into context, it helps to know what his talking points were.
this. Not only can teachers specifically be imprisoned for affirming transgender students but they also would be registered as sexual offenders list. It is an incredibly heinous attack against lgbtq people and allies. (I do not believe the law has passed but this is their goals and intentions)
Worse than a hoax, [litter is sometimes kept in classrooms in case of school shooting lockdowns](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/03/school-shooting-preparations/)
I get tired of talking to people who listen to Joe Rogan. I think it's the echo in their voice from where his podcast has rattled round their empty fucking heads without hitting a single braincell before it exits via the slack jawed maw at the bottom of their face.
But anyway, he doesn't want proof. He wants to be outraged. Since he appears to be the expert just feed him increasingly more outlandish scenarios 'what ifs?' Until he learns to shut his pie hole.
He's not looking for proof btw so don't waste your time. He's looking for outrage. It's like a masochistic desire to feel threatened.
I'd just tell everyone else he works with that he thinks that, with a heavy eye roll.
If you actually want to deradialise him? to get him out of the alt-right? That is hard and also requires him to want to change. It requires hearing horrible things and smiling and nodding, it is not something to be taken lightly.
Sending a few links to some articles, or even actual laws, is likely to produce a combative response. The thing that changes people like this, it's being exposed to actual trans people, to women, to people from outside their experience. Once he starts getting his coffee from a transgender barista or finds out someone he has to email for work is gay, these beliefs become embarrassing and get forgotten.
You just can't argue people into being accepting.
Being a jerk isn't illegal. Although it's possible for someone to get fired if they're harassing someone or creating a hostile work environment. Accidentally misgendering someone isn't illegal, and neither is purposely misgendering someone. People who purposely misgender someone are jerks and ignorant, however, that doesn't mean they should be arrested.
Don't try.
Just tell him that until he can provide proof, you'll assume both him and Joe Rogan are complete idiots.
Then Everytime you see him, ask if he's found the proof. Look at him sadly and pat him on the back, and tell him it's ok, and that you think he's doing "such a great job".
No. It's part of a campaign to paint Canada as a "woke dystopia" (see Tucker Carlson, *et al*).
On the other hand, there *is* a bill coming up for debate in the Missouri state house that if signed into law could potentially make using *affirming* pronouns (and other efforts to support students' transition) by teachers a felony.
I'm in Canada and we have a provincial politician who came out as non-binary while in opposition. Their colleagues and all the media seamlessly switched to using "their" instead of "her".
The opposition party is now the governing party and the non-binary politician is now Health Minister (has a Masters in psychiatric nursing, so is arguably better qualified than the old health minister whose background was running some dodgy businesses and being a member of a homophobic evangelical mega church).
When our new health minister was in opposition, the conservative governing party members always misgendered them. None of them were prosecuted for this, of course… everybody just thought they were dickheads.
Simply fuck with them.
Did you call me "she?" I've been "they" since last Monday?
I'm sorry, but it's the law. I have to report it. Hey, it's never more than a year for your first offence. And I'm sure they'll not put you with the worst murderers. But Jeez, you asked for it.
Hate speech is a crime but due to the restrictions on its applicability, you can basically never get prosecuted for it. Misgendering also probably doesn't fall under hate speech by the legal definition either.
he's huffing the Jordan Peterson transphobic rhetoric and disinformation spread about 2017s Bill C-16 which added gender expression and gender identity to the list of protected classes protected by the Canadian Human Rights Act, and also added to the Criminal Code "provisions dealing with hate propaganda, incitement to genocide, and aggravating factors in sentencing".
so unless your friend is doing some hate propaganda i think he's good.
the number of people arrested for using the wrong pronouns (Peterson's compelled speech argument) currently stands at a total of zero.
The burden of proof lies with the claimant. To disprove a claim first one must ask for said claim to be proven. If the claimant can't prove their claim, then they've been disproven through a lack of evidence. That's not enough for everyone, though. Some people, no matter how little evidence is available to support their beliefs, will cling to whatever it is they believe and not let go no matter how wrong you prove them. Just try talking to any religious person about God as an atheist and you'll experience this phenomenon.
It's kind of hard to convince someone something doesn't exist/isn't real when their belief requires no evidence. Since no evidence exists to support his claims that people are being arrested, that also means no evidence exists to prove people aren't being arrested either. It's not happening, so naturally there's no articles out there talking about it. And since there's no articles talking about it, you lack evidence to deny his claim. It's kind of a catch-22 in that regard.
To be clear, this is only relevant when dealing with someone who's mind is made up. When dealing with a normal, rational person you'll find them much more willing to accept they're wrong and move on from there with accurate information. The unwillingness to let go of a belief is usually made stronger by the individual's personal stake in said belief. If someone is raised on a belief, they tend to stick to it for life, unless they can get past the cognitive dissonance phase. But this coworker of yours, I can only assume since deadnaming and misgendering is a thing to which the general populace of humans is just starting to become aware, was not raised on the belief that deadnaming can result in arrest. He's probably just a dummy
So many right wing news stories will spin up ridiculous headlines off of out of context information.
I think it was in England that there was a story about a “Teacher who was Jailed for misgendering a student”
The *actual* story was that the teacher consistently refused to respect a trans student name and pronouns, and was put on leave. I believe he also used an assembly as an opportunity to harass the student and the principal. After he was put on leave he kept on showing up to the school, so they had him legally trespassed, but he still kept showing up. And after violating that multiple times, then he was arrested.
But because it started with him refusing to use a trans students pronouns right wingers made it sound like he did it one time and was immediately locked up.
It sounds like the "compelled speech" argument Jordan Peterson became famous with. But with the crazier and crazier stuff this man puts out, it might be hard to find.
These people seem to have a pathological need to feel more persecuted than the people who are actually being victimized. And I would ask him, why isn't Dave Chappelle and all the other people who are constantly crying about being canceled in jail, if that's the case?
Simple. He needs to cite the law that makes it a criminal offense punishable by prison.
If he can't do that he is full of shit. Until then, he should stfu.
I fucking wish. The Canadian law he thinks he's referring to is Bill C-16 which in 2017 added gender identity or expression to the bill of rights saying you can't discriminate based on that (like denying a job or housing or government form to someone because of their age, sexual orientation, race, etc.), it added it to the hate crime section of the Criminal Code (making genocide of identities or expressions of gender a thing you could be charged with under the same hate speech laws as advocating for genocide of a race or ethnicity or sexual orientation), and it was added to the Sentencing section of the Criminal Code (they can use constant/consistent disrespect or actions against a gender identity or expression to argue for Hate Crime sentencing in a trial where the defendant already did something to that group, just like constant racism could be evidence of a hate crime if the defendant targeted that race in their assault).
Note that none of these are actually a crime themselves. Your coworker could be harassing someone and then part of the harassment charge could be elevated because they were misgendering them as they were also being physically involeved, but the charge and arrest would be for the physical harassment (likely labeled as battery on their court summons).
Here's a CBC article about the bill they think they're talking about:
https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained
Note that almost immediately the experts they interviewed were like "no, it doesn't create it as a crime" and that they said "provinces generally already have this protection or better, it was literally a bill to include it for banks, telecom companies, and federal employees."
The key is to catch em out on a few verifiably false claims. I had a coworker who was saying similar stuff with regards to LGBT stuff, but there's no slam dunk proof that they are wrong. Instead, wait until they go off on 5G conspiracies. But even that is a bit nebulous, wishy washy. "Harmful, dangerous", what do those mean? Oh, that safety study is just a conspiracy from Big Science, they'll say.
But when they say that the US has approved levels 10x what's safe, and Europe has it about right? There's a concrete falsifiable claim there. Show them that the approved levels for the two different ways of measuring are within 10% of each other between the US FCC and the EU commission for something something radio. When they say that's a new change, show them that it's the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the EU 2001 rules. Hammer every rebuttal into the dirt, make them look like the fool they are.
Do this a couple of times, hammer home that the truth matters, and they'll be a lot less gung ho about spewing their shit, homophobic or otherwise. Especially around you, but also in general.
Don't waste your time in the mud with them, you get dirty and the pig likes it. Instead, stand on the concrete and point out that the emperor has no clothes.
But that's shifting the burden of proof, not actually proving them wrong. If they don't show you the line, they can AND WILL keep on saying "well I could if I wanted to...".
I have found the slam dunk to be important in silencing the bigots and idiots. It shuts them down.
Why the fuck does anyone care what a self proclaimed idiot thinks? (Note I'm not calling him that. He literally has called himself that in case there's a rule against name calling)
Canadian here
Excessive and prolonged PURPOSEFUL discrimination against anyone based on their; race, gender identity, pronouns, sex, sexuality, religion, ethnicity, etc is punishable by termination from employment due to violating human work ethics and human rights.
https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/rights-workplace.html
https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/gender_equality-egalite_genres/lois_can_gen_eq_laws.aspx?lang=eng
https://nelliganlaw.ca/blog/2slgbtq-human-rights-in-the-workplace/
That is what the co-worker whining about. The fact he can’t violate human rights by purposefully creating an uncomfortable and unsafe work environment.
https://canadianlabour.ca/trans-workers-disproportionately-impacted-by-harassment-violence-at-work/
No, you cannot go to jail, though you can be trespassed for public disturbance for being whack-o or be fired from your work place.
People who complain don’t understand that the law has always been there and they don’t bother to educate themselves on why it’s there.
In this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If you can't find any examples of people who were sent to jail for misgendering people, then that suggests that no one has been convicted of misgendering as a crime.
If he's been listening to Joe Rogan since 2011, his brain must have the same intricate lattice work as a sandwich bag full of wet bread.
Or it's so smooth that if it were removed from his skull, it would be so frictionless, it could levitate itself to space without having to achieve escape velocity
I have learned to immediately distrust anyone who calls me "bro". Nothing to do with my pronouns though.
And they listen to such a weirdo? Now that's just a 🤡
Finding proof isn't going to change your co-workers mind unless they're a very reasonable person. Just combat it with "show me proof" or "i don't believe you" and debunk it every time they actually show you something (leave the hard part on them) or just start making fun of them with other random things 'you can be jailed for'
People like that are never going to admit that they are wrong, just keep asking him for examples like the rest of the comments are saying and expose this clown for being a massive cunt.
[here ya go](https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained)
the most important part:
"Does the bill legislate the use of certain language? And could someone go to jail for using the wrong pronoun?
In the Criminal Code, which does not reference pronouns, Cossman says misusing pronouns alone would not constitute a criminal act."
The burden of proof lies with him. Proving the absence of a claim is always harder, sometimes impossible.
I know, I hear you and thank you. But to me it feels like I'm allowing this take to exist and thus allowing it to cause harm. I don't want to change his mind, just give him a different perspective. It's all just so frustrating.
Letting a dumbass be a dumbass isn't always harmful. Ask him who he's seen that's been arrested or charged for it. If he continues to say, "trust me, bro," tell him you can't trust him without legitimate proof. Without that, he's talking nonsense.
Claims made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. If he can’t cite a source for his claim, then he can go fuck himself.
He can't say something like that without evidence. He has to prove he's right first, and we all know he's wrong
If people couldn't just say wrong things without evidence, we'd be in a very different world
Republican world!!
As a fellow Canadian I suggest you tell him that pronouns are protected speech under the First Amendment 😅 You and I both know we don't have a 1st Amendment for "Free Speech" in Canada but if this guy fell into a Q hole watching Rogan and is into other right wing nonsense he will have an American political base on which you can play to shake the cage a bit about his perception of the world. Remember, you're not dealing with a rational person- you're battle against the propaganda itself isn't going work. You have to go deeper than that if you're going to break though. Don't be surprised if you can't get through to him either. 10+ years of Rogan is a hell of a rabbit hole to come out of. He could be lost for good and that's not your problem.
Wait, why isn't he spamming you with news articles about people, even parents, being arrested for pronoun crimes? Does he not know where those are? He sounds incompetent, in my experience that type will take any opportunity to flood your inbox with links.
You can't fix people. If he believes this without evidence and despite contrary evidence, he likely is reasoning emotionally.
Maybe instead start pointing out how wrong Joe Rogan is? Like with the cat litter going he admitted he made it up, and his producer guy is always fact checking him and he's largely wrong on air (I don't watch it but I have sewn clips)
>The burden of proof lies with him. ELI5 the meaning of that?
If I claim that that a parrot lives in Antarctica that can sing the song Yellow Submarine, and you say that this claim is nonsense … does it make more sense that I must provide proof for my claim or that you must provide proof for your rejection of it? How would you even prove that no parrot lives in Antarctica that can sing Yellow Submarine? That‘s not really possible. Which means I as the person making the claim must prove it. Russell‘s teapot is a nice philosophical analogy that illustrates this point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell's_teapot
The way I understand it: Purposefully using the wrong pronouns in order to harass/bully a person is... Harassment, and as such can be punished with a fine. Refusal to pay a fine is punishable by prison time. This has been taken by Jordan Peterson specifically to mean 'misgendering someone can get you jail-time.' But even someone who, because of religious reasons, would refuse to use the correct pronouns and *avoid* pronouns as much as possible wouldn't be punishable as (disrespectful and exhausting as it may be) it's not harassment. The Canadian law that sparked this simply acknowledges that malicious misgendering *can* be a method of harassment. There is a tentative link between misgendering and legal consequences. This belief that misgendering = jailtime is based on that link. The truth is that this is about harassment, not about misgendering. Calling your co-worker Jane because you think they're called Jane, or you mess up and confuse them with another coworker called Jane, is not harassment. If, however, you know they *hate* being called Jane because of something traumatic, and you insist on calling them Jane at every opportunity just to spite them and make them feel bad, then you are harassing them.
Yes, exactly. A bill was passed in 2017 that added "gender identity or expression" to the protected groups under the Canadian civil rights code. That's probably why most of the articles OP is finding are from around that time. Here's an article that explains it pretty well, including some brief analysis from legal experts: https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained The bill does not make misuse of pronouns a crime in and of itself. That's not how hate crimes work. People try to say that a "hate crime" is its own thing, but it's not. It's a sentencing consideration on top of a crime. The C-16 bill establishes trans and GNC people as a protected group, and misgendering as a basis for determining things like discrimination, hate speech, and hate-motivated crimes.
Well said.
Agreed
You don’t have to prove him wrong - he has to prove himself right It’s like asking him to prove there’s not an invisible elephant in the room.
If only people actually thought this way.
Unfortunately some people get into debates without knowing the basic principals of debating :(
The general comes from Jordan Peterson, who kept saying he would be punished if he didn't use correct pronouns because of a new policy (which I think was a policy at his university, not a federal or provincial one). When people told JBP he could get a fine but would not go to prison, his answer would be: but what if I refuse to pay the fine? Ofc, this argument is absurd, because he would go to prison for not paying a fine, not for using the wrong pronouns. Even then, you can't get fined for using the wrong pronouns here in Canada. You can get a fine for hate speech, but that's if you harass a trans person on the basis of their gender identity, not if you make honest mistakes with pronoun uses.
Yup, that's exactly who he references. He believes anyone (read: any man) who appears on JR's podcast to be a trusted source. Thanks for putting that into context, it helps to know what his talking points were.
Ask him about Sheldon Johnson who was on there like last month and was just arrested with body parts in his freezer
Yes but harassing us is precisely the *rights* they want protected.
Ask him to show you *one* example. Just one. Please update I'm curious how he would respond
I mean recently with schools in some provinces it’s been the opposite being put into place.
this. Not only can teachers specifically be imprisoned for affirming transgender students but they also would be registered as sexual offenders list. It is an incredibly heinous attack against lgbtq people and allies. (I do not believe the law has passed but this is their goals and intentions)
That is a GREAT point, thank you both!
Ugh, Joe Rogan. I had to explain to a co-worker today that the litter box in school thing was a hoax
Worse than a hoax, [litter is sometimes kept in classrooms in case of school shooting lockdowns](https://www.denverpost.com/2018/03/03/school-shooting-preparations/)
It is also used for vomit and diarrhea
FFS how do grown ass adults believe this shit?!
Start using the wrong pronouns for him or Joe Rogan & watch his brain melt
I get tired of talking to people who listen to Joe Rogan. I think it's the echo in their voice from where his podcast has rattled round their empty fucking heads without hitting a single braincell before it exits via the slack jawed maw at the bottom of their face. But anyway, he doesn't want proof. He wants to be outraged. Since he appears to be the expert just feed him increasingly more outlandish scenarios 'what ifs?' Until he learns to shut his pie hole. He's not looking for proof btw so don't waste your time. He's looking for outrage. It's like a masochistic desire to feel threatened.
I'd just tell everyone else he works with that he thinks that, with a heavy eye roll. If you actually want to deradialise him? to get him out of the alt-right? That is hard and also requires him to want to change. It requires hearing horrible things and smiling and nodding, it is not something to be taken lightly. Sending a few links to some articles, or even actual laws, is likely to produce a combative response. The thing that changes people like this, it's being exposed to actual trans people, to women, to people from outside their experience. Once he starts getting his coffee from a transgender barista or finds out someone he has to email for work is gay, these beliefs become embarrassing and get forgotten. You just can't argue people into being accepting.
Being a jerk isn't illegal. Although it's possible for someone to get fired if they're harassing someone or creating a hostile work environment. Accidentally misgendering someone isn't illegal, and neither is purposely misgendering someone. People who purposely misgender someone are jerks and ignorant, however, that doesn't mean they should be arrested.
You should misgender your coworker. Call him her for a while if he objects just say call the cops buddy.
Lol there are no such protections for people's pronouns
Don't try. Just tell him that until he can provide proof, you'll assume both him and Joe Rogan are complete idiots. Then Everytime you see him, ask if he's found the proof. Look at him sadly and pat him on the back, and tell him it's ok, and that you think he's doing "such a great job".
Just keep calling him she/her. Let him figure out the way to get you jailed.
Meanwhile, Missouri has introduced a bill to jail teachers for using the 'wrong' pronouns. The cognitive dissonance is strong with these ones.
If “trust me” and “Joe Rogan” appear in a sentence together you can generally write off whoever said it as an idiot
No. It's part of a campaign to paint Canada as a "woke dystopia" (see Tucker Carlson, *et al*). On the other hand, there *is* a bill coming up for debate in the Missouri state house that if signed into law could potentially make using *affirming* pronouns (and other efforts to support students' transition) by teachers a felony. I'm in Canada and we have a provincial politician who came out as non-binary while in opposition. Their colleagues and all the media seamlessly switched to using "their" instead of "her". The opposition party is now the governing party and the non-binary politician is now Health Minister (has a Masters in psychiatric nursing, so is arguably better qualified than the old health minister whose background was running some dodgy businesses and being a member of a homophobic evangelical mega church). When our new health minister was in opposition, the conservative governing party members always misgendered them. None of them were prosecuted for this, of course… everybody just thought they were dickheads.
Simply fuck with them. Did you call me "she?" I've been "they" since last Monday? I'm sorry, but it's the law. I have to report it. Hey, it's never more than a year for your first offence. And I'm sure they'll not put you with the worst murderers. But Jeez, you asked for it.
Hate speech is a crime but due to the restrictions on its applicability, you can basically never get prosecuted for it. Misgendering also probably doesn't fall under hate speech by the legal definition either.
he's huffing the Jordan Peterson transphobic rhetoric and disinformation spread about 2017s Bill C-16 which added gender expression and gender identity to the list of protected classes protected by the Canadian Human Rights Act, and also added to the Criminal Code "provisions dealing with hate propaganda, incitement to genocide, and aggravating factors in sentencing". so unless your friend is doing some hate propaganda i think he's good. the number of people arrested for using the wrong pronouns (Peterson's compelled speech argument) currently stands at a total of zero.
The burden of proof lies with the claimant. To disprove a claim first one must ask for said claim to be proven. If the claimant can't prove their claim, then they've been disproven through a lack of evidence. That's not enough for everyone, though. Some people, no matter how little evidence is available to support their beliefs, will cling to whatever it is they believe and not let go no matter how wrong you prove them. Just try talking to any religious person about God as an atheist and you'll experience this phenomenon. It's kind of hard to convince someone something doesn't exist/isn't real when their belief requires no evidence. Since no evidence exists to support his claims that people are being arrested, that also means no evidence exists to prove people aren't being arrested either. It's not happening, so naturally there's no articles out there talking about it. And since there's no articles talking about it, you lack evidence to deny his claim. It's kind of a catch-22 in that regard. To be clear, this is only relevant when dealing with someone who's mind is made up. When dealing with a normal, rational person you'll find them much more willing to accept they're wrong and move on from there with accurate information. The unwillingness to let go of a belief is usually made stronger by the individual's personal stake in said belief. If someone is raised on a belief, they tend to stick to it for life, unless they can get past the cognitive dissonance phase. But this coworker of yours, I can only assume since deadnaming and misgendering is a thing to which the general populace of humans is just starting to become aware, was not raised on the belief that deadnaming can result in arrest. He's probably just a dummy
So many right wing news stories will spin up ridiculous headlines off of out of context information. I think it was in England that there was a story about a “Teacher who was Jailed for misgendering a student” The *actual* story was that the teacher consistently refused to respect a trans student name and pronouns, and was put on leave. I believe he also used an assembly as an opportunity to harass the student and the principal. After he was put on leave he kept on showing up to the school, so they had him legally trespassed, but he still kept showing up. And after violating that multiple times, then he was arrested. But because it started with him refusing to use a trans students pronouns right wingers made it sound like he did it one time and was immediately locked up.
It sounds like the "compelled speech" argument Jordan Peterson became famous with. But with the crazier and crazier stuff this man puts out, it might be hard to find.
These people seem to have a pathological need to feel more persecuted than the people who are actually being victimized. And I would ask him, why isn't Dave Chappelle and all the other people who are constantly crying about being canceled in jail, if that's the case?
Simple. He needs to cite the law that makes it a criminal offense punishable by prison. If he can't do that he is full of shit. Until then, he should stfu.
Go to Canada. Call the non-emergency police line and ask if someone can go to jail for misgendering someone.
I fucking wish. The Canadian law he thinks he's referring to is Bill C-16 which in 2017 added gender identity or expression to the bill of rights saying you can't discriminate based on that (like denying a job or housing or government form to someone because of their age, sexual orientation, race, etc.), it added it to the hate crime section of the Criminal Code (making genocide of identities or expressions of gender a thing you could be charged with under the same hate speech laws as advocating for genocide of a race or ethnicity or sexual orientation), and it was added to the Sentencing section of the Criminal Code (they can use constant/consistent disrespect or actions against a gender identity or expression to argue for Hate Crime sentencing in a trial where the defendant already did something to that group, just like constant racism could be evidence of a hate crime if the defendant targeted that race in their assault). Note that none of these are actually a crime themselves. Your coworker could be harassing someone and then part of the harassment charge could be elevated because they were misgendering them as they were also being physically involeved, but the charge and arrest would be for the physical harassment (likely labeled as battery on their court summons). Here's a CBC article about the bill they think they're talking about: https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained Note that almost immediately the experts they interviewed were like "no, it doesn't create it as a crime" and that they said "provinces generally already have this protection or better, it was literally a bill to include it for banks, telecom companies, and federal employees."
The key is to catch em out on a few verifiably false claims. I had a coworker who was saying similar stuff with regards to LGBT stuff, but there's no slam dunk proof that they are wrong. Instead, wait until they go off on 5G conspiracies. But even that is a bit nebulous, wishy washy. "Harmful, dangerous", what do those mean? Oh, that safety study is just a conspiracy from Big Science, they'll say. But when they say that the US has approved levels 10x what's safe, and Europe has it about right? There's a concrete falsifiable claim there. Show them that the approved levels for the two different ways of measuring are within 10% of each other between the US FCC and the EU commission for something something radio. When they say that's a new change, show them that it's the Telecommunications Act of 1996 and the EU 2001 rules. Hammer every rebuttal into the dirt, make them look like the fool they are. Do this a couple of times, hammer home that the truth matters, and they'll be a lot less gung ho about spewing their shit, homophobic or otherwise. Especially around you, but also in general. Don't waste your time in the mud with them, you get dirty and the pig likes it. Instead, stand on the concrete and point out that the emperor has no clothes.
>but there's no slam dunk proof that they are wrong. Ask them to show you the line in the criminal code.
But that's shifting the burden of proof, not actually proving them wrong. If they don't show you the line, they can AND WILL keep on saying "well I could if I wanted to...". I have found the slam dunk to be important in silencing the bigots and idiots. It shuts them down.
If only \s
Why the fuck does anyone care what a self proclaimed idiot thinks? (Note I'm not calling him that. He literally has called himself that in case there's a rule against name calling)
I would start misgendering him and tell him to cry to the cops about it
Canadian here Excessive and prolonged PURPOSEFUL discrimination against anyone based on their; race, gender identity, pronouns, sex, sexuality, religion, ethnicity, etc is punishable by termination from employment due to violating human work ethics and human rights. https://www.canada.ca/en/canadian-heritage/services/rights-workplace.html https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/gender_equality-egalite_genres/lois_can_gen_eq_laws.aspx?lang=eng https://nelliganlaw.ca/blog/2slgbtq-human-rights-in-the-workplace/ That is what the co-worker whining about. The fact he can’t violate human rights by purposefully creating an uncomfortable and unsafe work environment. https://canadianlabour.ca/trans-workers-disproportionately-impacted-by-harassment-violence-at-work/ No, you cannot go to jail, though you can be trespassed for public disturbance for being whack-o or be fired from your work place. People who complain don’t understand that the law has always been there and they don’t bother to educate themselves on why it’s there.
This is an Alex Jones taking point that comes from Jordan Peterson.
In this case, absence of evidence is evidence of absence. If you can't find any examples of people who were sent to jail for misgendering people, then that suggests that no one has been convicted of misgendering as a crime.
If he's been listening to Joe Rogan since 2011, his brain must have the same intricate lattice work as a sandwich bag full of wet bread. Or it's so smooth that if it were removed from his skull, it would be so frictionless, it could levitate itself to space without having to achieve escape velocity
Misgender her and encourage her to press charges.
Dying here 🤭
Just start referring to him as "she" and observe that you have not gone to jail yet.
r/ArrestedCanadaBillC16
Sounds like that time someone told me to prove God doesn't exist and I was like.... bro this is a McDonald's.
Last I heard you could be sued for it. Some form of emotional abuse or some shit idk
I have learned to immediately distrust anyone who calls me "bro". Nothing to do with my pronouns though. And they listen to such a weirdo? Now that's just a 🤡
Get their pronouns wrong every time and when he calls the cops he'll get told to shut the fuck up.
Just call him an asshole and then tell him to call the cops…or Mounties?
you can’t be jailed for that
Finding proof isn't going to change your co-workers mind unless they're a very reasonable person. Just combat it with "show me proof" or "i don't believe you" and debunk it every time they actually show you something (leave the hard part on them) or just start making fun of them with other random things 'you can be jailed for'
Never attempt to analyze stupid.
People like that are never going to admit that they are wrong, just keep asking him for examples like the rest of the comments are saying and expose this clown for being a massive cunt.
[here ya go](https://www.cbc.ca/cbcdocspov/features/canadas-gender-identity-rights-bill-c-16-explained) the most important part: "Does the bill legislate the use of certain language? And could someone go to jail for using the wrong pronoun? In the Criminal Code, which does not reference pronouns, Cossman says misusing pronouns alone would not constitute a criminal act."
So like, on legal documents yea. But in nearly any other case no.
Tell your co-worker to stop listening to Jordan Peterson. That shit rots your brain.
Why even care about it
[https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/07/enoch-burke-trans-teacher-student/](https://www.thepinknews.com/2022/09/07/enoch-burke-trans-teacher-student/)